i am an atheist, and i want to hear a christians opinion on things, and have a peaceful debate. could everyone else not spam, and if you have something to say, then say it, but dont try to enter into a part of the conversation. i want it to be pretty much 1 on 1.

quote:Originally posted by Silhouette:

i am an atheist, and i want to hear a christians opinion on things, and have a peaceful debate. could everyone else not spam, and if you have something to say, then say it, but dont try to enter into a part of the conversation. i want it to be pretty much 1 on 1.

Ok, if you don't mind, I'll argue on behalf of Christianity as best I can. Wanna do it here or on MSN?!

Feel free to begin with a question any time. To start off Christianity is the belief that God is capable of anything. At the council of Nicea the Trinity concept was incorporated into Christianity, this is that The Father (God), The Son (Jesus), the Holy Spirit are 3 incarnations or aspects of the one, all capable God. The Father is representative of ultimate order and justice, the Son is representative of forgiveness, humanity, empathy, sacrifice, and the Holy Spirit is the representation of God's action and inspiration.

Jesus can be considered either the literal or metaphorical begotten son of God. God manifested his being in human form to walk the earth and teach his message and to sacrifice himself for mankinds sins, to save them from their destiny date with hellfire.

Those who accept and appreciate God's sacrifice can reap the benefits and rewards of the event (Living in the Kingdom of Heaven for All Eternity). Those who follow Satan and turn away from the sacrifice do wrong, and sin, will burn in hell fire, a place they were destined to go to.

can you prove the existence of god by any physical means.

can you back up anything you said with common knowlege or proven fact

[This message has been edited by Silhouette (edited 05-16-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Silhouette:

can you prove the existence of god by any physical means.

can you back up anything you said with common knowlege or proven fact



God is not a Physical Being. So God can not be proven through Physical means. The concept of a higher power or powers has existed for a long time, some explain it as God being a concept to comfort and send fear into the hearts of man, I believe that it is a concept because it is a possibility and that God is who informed man of his existance and introduced this concept to our thinking. Is there any PHYSICAL PROOF TO PROVE THE EXISTANCE OF GOD, OTHER THAN EVERYTHING AROUND US AND THE CONCEPT THAT THESE SYSTEMS, ATOMS, LIFE, PHYSICS CAN'T JUST COME FROM NO WHERE? No, there is no physical proof of God other than creation, this is because God is not a physical being, not part of Creation. (Caps was for emphasis lol)

Not a physical being eh?

Applying materialism theory that means that it does not exist (as according to materialism all things that exist have a physical basis)

Two questions.

Do you subscribe to 'god' the properties of omniscience, omnipotence and omnibenevolence?

Do you realize that the burden of proof is on the one making the claim and that when applying critical analysis to a statement, people need more to go on than mere assertions?

quote:Originally posted by Fundokiller:

Not a physical being eh?

Applying materialism theory that means that it does not exist (as according to materialism all things that exist have a physical basis)

Two questions.

Do you subscribe to 'god' the properties of omniscience, omnipotence and omnibenevolence?

Do you realize that the burden of proof is on the one making the claim and that when applying critical analysis to a statement, people need more to go on than mere assertions?

If God was a material being, God would have to have been created. God is what created all material, is not material itself.

God is not a limited being, God is everywhere. Yes, God is benevolent and has given us alot of freedom to do what we will. God is aware of all things. God is Everywhere.

God is not a physical or material being. God is beyond material, but what material comes from and exists by.

Thanks for the questions, also feel free to ask any questions directed specifically to Christianity.

my quasi-hippie aunt had a conversation to me about a sort of religion based on the relation between the fundamentals of christian belief and science. she says (and i kind of agree with her, as it makes sense) that jesus realised, 'hey, all this must have come from somewhere.lets call this source god. therefore, if all this came from god, then i must be the son of god', and that he was thinking of we have come to call the big bang. oh, no disrespect to any christians. i mean no harm. what do you think of this theory?

does that make sense? im kind of tired, i can re-write it tomorrow if you dont quite get it.

[This message has been edited by Silhouette (edited 05-17-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

If God was a material being, God would have to have been created. God is what created all material, is not material itself.

God is not a limited being, God is everywhere. Yes, God is benevolent and has given us alot of freedom to do what we will. God is aware of all things. God is Everywhere.

God is not a physical or material being. God is beyond material, but what material comes from and exists by.

Thanks for the questions, also feel free to ask any questions directed specifically to Christianity.

I thought it was proven that material objects can come about without their creation being caused. Rust knows more about it than I do. now for a couple of others.

Is god tangible?

Do you understand the term 'falsifiability'? without it the concept of aether is on the same level of the concept of gravity.



Also can you add me to your contact list, I'm patthe1@optusnet.com.au



[This message has been edited by Fundokiller (edited 05-17-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Silhouette:

my quasi-hippie aunt had a conversation to me about a sort of religion based on the relation between the fundamentals of christian belief and science. she says (and i kind of agree with her, as it makes sense) that jesus realised, 'hey, all this must have come from somewhere.lets call this source god. therefore, if all this came from god, then i must be the son of god', and that he was thinking of we have come to call the big bang. oh, no disrespect to any christians. i mean no harm. what do you think of this theory?

does that make sense? im kind of tired, i can re-write it tomorrow if you dont quite get it.



But then why wouldn't anyone else who realize this be the son of god too?

quote:Originally posted by Silhouette:

my quasi-hippie aunt had a conversation to me about a sort of religion based on the relation between the fundamentals of christian belief and science. she says (and i kind of agree with her, as it makes sense) that jesus realised, 'hey, all this must have come from somewhere.lets call this source god. therefore, if all this came from god, then i must be the son of god', and that he was thinking of we have come to call the big bang. oh, no disrespect to any christians. i mean no harm. what do you think of this theory?

does that make sense? im kind of tired, i can re-write it tomorrow if you dont quite get it.



No it does not, Christ was a Jew. He believed himself to be the savior that was foretold in Jewish texts. He didn't "make up" a god simply from the idea of a source.

Sorry to jump in here, but the argument that God must exist because otherwise we couldn't is quite possibly the worst logical statement ever made about God.

It contradicts itself.

1) Everything must have a creator

2) Therefore the Universe must have a creator

3) Therefore God must exist

4) Therefore God must have a creator

5) But God has no creator

6) Therefore Everything does not have to have a creator.

The last logical statement contradicts the first. Abrahim, your concept of God is different from everyone else's, and you basically say that all the universe and all existence is God. Well, ok, you can call it whatever the hell you want, you are just saying the universe is everything that exists, and it created...itself. Your logical explanations that God is the universe and the universe is in God and whatnot contradict most other christians argument that the universe couldn't have created itself and God exists outside of the universe.

You do realize that every argument you have posted simply states things without backing them up right?

And you realize that if an Islamic person just started saying what their religion says and simply stated it as true without backing it up, you would look at them as crazy?

And if you had a friend who believe in Santa he could explain all his beliefs in the exact same way you do by simply using ad-hoc and making things up?

(e.g. How can Santa fly around to every house in one night? "His sled is magical, it can do that by nature")

And that while your friend would think he had explained himself, and that he had answered your questions, and that he would wonder why you don't accept it, you would know how deluded he was?

You do realize that everyone who isn't christian looks at what you say in the same light, right?

Good, just making sure.

More information about Science in the Qur'an with Quotes can be found here.

http://www .missionis lam.com/sc ience/book.htm (http: //www.miss ionislam.c om/science /book.htm)

Enjoy!

I didn't fully review it but its full of information once you get past the opening.

This debate was intended to be between Silhouette and an Open Minded Christian. Christians in general do not have the same concept as God as I personally do. They do not believe God is a physical being but is rather a spiritual being that rules all things and is capable of all things not within the bounds of the physical realm.

"What is God" is a place where my own personal concept of God comes into play. My concept of God may be thought of as completely alien to most people but it is from the Qur'an.

"Interested in Islam? Ask Questions here!" is where Questions about science and Qur'an might be better placed in.

Meanwhile the debate can resume here between Silhouette and myself, I will be representing Christianity as best I can, concepts I say here may not be those I personally believe in. Silhouette wanted this to be a one on one discussion between myself and himself but any other questions can be directed here. I am debating in this post as an open minded Christian. For my opinions on God, Islam, and Religion there are 3 other posts which you can refer back to.

[This message has been edited by Abrahim (edited 05-18-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

But then why wouldn't anyone else who realize this be the son of god too?



thats the thing; we would be http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Silhouette:

thats the thing; we would be http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

Jesus is said to have come from a religious background and was surrounded by religion from his time of Birth, it wasn't so much that he really figured anything out. A portion of Christians believe that Jesus is the Literal son of God and Existed alongside God from the beginning of Time, others believe Jesus is the metaphorical son of God who is God's incarnation or representation on Earth. What is agreed upon mostly is that Jesus appeared on Earth to teach mankind something of God and right action.

I would enjoy a good msn talk.

kenshin_kid_4995@hotmail.com

ok look at it this way, if your a christian when you die and there is a god then you get to go to heaven and if there isnt then it doesnt really matter because you wont know so youre safe either way, but if youre athiest then you die you better hope there isnt a god cause then youre off to hell. and dont argue about what if another religion is correct cause thier not!

"And the lord was sorry that he had made humankind on the earth, and it grieved him in his heart" Genisis 6-19

Does that not suggest god recognized he made a mistake and is less than perfect?

quote:Originally posted by Masta Thief:

ok look at it this way, if your a christian when you die and there is a god then you get to go to heaven and if there isnt then it doesnt really matter because you wont know so youre safe either way, but if youre athiest then you die you better hope there isnt a god cause then youre off to hell. and dont argue about what if another religion is correct cause thier not!

Is there not an equal chance that a god with opposing morals exists and this following the christian god could land you in "hell"? Sorry for the double post.

quote:Originally posted by Boblong:

"And the lord was sorry that he had made humankind on the earth, and it grieved him in his heart" Genisis 6-19

Does that not suggest god recognized he made a mistake and is less than perfect?

I'll never believe in a God that makes mistakes and grieves and has a akey brakey heart.

Masta Thief, why you so sure dat dayr no otha reljun?

Oh but as a Christian:

That is a metaphor to show Gods displeasure with mankinds behavior and want for them to correct themselves.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

Oh but as a Christian:

That is a metaphor to show Gods displeasure with mankinds behavior and want for them to correct themselves.

Doesn't being "sorry" about doing something imply regret and failure?

quote:Originally posted by Boblong:

Doesn't being "sorry" about doing something imply regret and failure?

More, in my opinion, regretful of what mankind was doing, how they were using their free will, how they were transgressing and doing wrong.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

More, in my opinion, regretful of what mankind was doing, how they were using their free will, how they were transgressing and doing wrong.

But he said he was sorry for creating them expressing regret for his own actions. How does that translate to regret for the actions of man?

i have a question. whenever an atheist whant to talk about it why does he lways choose christianity, why not budhism or something

quote:Originally posted by rodrat16:

i have a question. whenever an atheist whant to talk about it why does he lways choose christianity, why not budhism or something

Mainly because in the regions most of Totse's posters live it is among the largest religions, many atheists/agnostics were former Christians, and Christianity is a easy target.

quote:Originally posted by Boblong:

Mainly because in the regions most of Totse's posters live it is among the largest religions, many atheists/agnostics were former Christians, and Christianity is a easy target.

Quoted for truth.

quote:Originally posted by Boblong:

But he said he was sorry for creating them expressing regret for his own actions. How does that translate to regret for the actions of man?

That it was unfortunate that they had chosen a more regretful mode of living. The Bible is written metaphorically for common man from that era to now, to understand and relate to. God is humanized in the text to make it easy to understand.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

That it was unfortunate that they had chosen a more regretful mode of living. The Bible is written metaphorically for common man from that era to now, to understand and relate to. God is humanized in the text to make it easy to understand.

So god in reality is different from the god portrayed in the bible? If so how can anyone know what the real god is like.

quote:Originally posted by Boblong:

Originally posted by Abrahim:

That it was unfortunate that they had chosen a more regretful mode of living. The Bible is written metaphorically for common man from that era to now, to understand and relate to. God is humanized in the text to make it easy to understand.

So god in reality is different from the god portrayed in the bible? If so how can anyone know what the real god is like.

The God portrayed in the bible is made for human understanding and gives only clues to the true and mysterious enigmatic nature of God as God. The Humanized God of the Bible is for common man to comprehend and compare, to apply to daily life and understand its reactions as emotional, something we can relate to.