To all aniongitcs (like myself), Atheists, and any one not sure of The existence of God or gods what would you consider proof of God. It could be something foreseeable or unforeseeable.

Define God.

quote:Originally posted by jsaxton14:

Define God.

More than *just* a higher power

Generic Christian/Jewish/Islamic like god that cares what humans do and is believed to of some how effected us since the beginning of time. Or what most people view as the traditional God





[This message has been edited by Q777 (edited 05-18-2006).]

If something really big came down from the sky demanding to be worshipped

That would be good enough for me

quote:Originally posted by Q777:

More than *just* a higher power

Generic Christian/Jewish/Islamic like god that cares what humans do and is believed to of some how effected us since the beginning of time. Or what most people view as the traditional God





What attributes does this "God" have?

Omnipotence?

Omniscience?

Omnibenevolence?

Let's define the hypothesis before talking about proof.

quote:Originally posted by jsaxton14:

What attributes does this "God" have?

Omnipotence?

Omniscience?

Omnibenevolence?

Let's define the hypothesis before talking about proof.



To fit what I consider the traditional view of God I think Omnisciences(sp?) and Omnipotences(sp?) is necessary.

If some one wishes to disput this tell me.

quote:Originally posted by Q777:



To fit what I consider the traditional view of God I think Omnisciences(sp?) and Omnipotences(sp?) is necessary.

If some one wishes to disput this tell me.

So God need not be all-kind/loving (omnibenevolent)?

quote:Originally posted by jsaxton14:

So God need not be all-kind/loving (omnibenevolent)?

Too easy to disprove, Look at the world, Plenty of hate because of God,plenty of bad/hate/anger in various religious books, would result in a debate of whats good and whats not, and for the sake of this discussion, no.

[This message has been edited by Q777 (edited 05-18-2006).]

If we're talking about the white-beard-universe-creating-lightning-wielding type of god that many still believe in http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by whitemenCANjump:

If something really big came down from the sky demanding to be worshipped

That would be good enough for me

Spot on!

[This message has been edited by Velio (edited 05-18-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Q777:

Too easy to disprove, Look at the world, Plenty of hate because of God,plenty of bad/hate/anger in various religious books, would result in a debate of whats good and whats not, and for the sake of this discussion, no.



Ok, to be Homer Simpson-like I would ask God to microwave a burrito so hot that even he could not eat it.

In what book did God promise that ones time on Earth would be free of hate? Why do people say "I don't believe in God because alot of bad stuff happens in the world." To me that makes no sense. They don't want free will and the billions of possibilities we have, to do anything we want?

People have some silly ideas about God, and when one offers more likely ideas about what a God might be athiests are the first to say "That's not God" As if they know? They have some preconception of the idea which they are resisting and changing it leads to disruption in some cased.

Please check out my related topic:

WHAT IS GOD?

http://www.totse.com/bbs/Forum15/HTML/005442.html

The God of Judaism and Christianity is in the image of man, either metaphorically or literally. The God of Christianity is generally thought of as posessing an image and a form and being within limits "In Heaven".

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

In what book did God promise that ones time on Earth would be free of hate? Why do people say "I don't believe in God because alot of bad stuff happens in the world." To me that makes no sense. They don't want free will and the billions of possibilities we have, to do anything we want?



The promise doesn't have to be explicit in order for it to be there. If he is considered benevolent, as the vast majority of theists consider god to be, then it is already "promised" implicitly. If he were benevolent, he would not allow suffering to exist. If he exists, and suffering and sin continue then he is not benevolent, hence the point is not only a valid one, but a very strong one.



quote:

People have some silly ideas about God, and when one offers more likely ideas about what a God might be athiests are the first to say "That's not God" As if they know? They have some preconception of the idea which they are resisting and changing it leads to disruption in some cased.

They say "that's not god" because the major religions have a very distinct view of what a god is, and what it entails. Omnipotence, omniscience and benevolence. Those characteristics are found in nearly all Judeo-Christian religions.

If your view of "god" doesn't have those characteristics, then chances are that it is a meaningless and trivial interpretation of what "god" is; for example, yours. "Reality" being "god" is something which holds absolutely no importance, and helps us understand nothing, it is a trivial and meaningless thing to say.

It's easy to believe in God. You can come up with countless ways to persuade yourself that there is a God. Heck, look at Christians, Jews, Muslims, theists, whatever. They've got their "proofs".

Personally, if God came down from the sky and told me himself that he was God, and I was sure that I wasn't under the influence of any form of intoxicant, hallucinogenic, lack of sleep, etc. I'd believe in him, that doesn't necessarily follow that I will obey him.

quote:Originally posted by crazed_hamster:

It's easy to believe in God. You can come up with countless ways to persuade yourself that there is a God. Heck, look at Christians, Jews, Muslims, theists, whatever. They've got their "proofs".

Personally, if God came down from the sky and told me himself that he was God, and I was sure that I wasn't under the influence of any form of intoxicant, hallucinogenic, lack of sleep, etc. I'd believe in him, that doesn't necessarily follow that I will obey him.

But that's exactly what I'm saying! God is not some being that can come down from places and talk to people, and if God was some sort of being like that I would violently disbelieve. Why? Because it is limited into a form, within the universe. My idea of God is not just pulled out of nowhere, it's from the Qur'an, you can read about it in my Islam questions post. That's what the God of Islam is, the power in Taoism, somewhat the belief of Hinduism (some guru's say that though Hinduism has many Gods they are representations of the aspects and attributes of the one power).

This idea is an old one. Human beings tend to humanize it themselves to make it easier to preach and comprehend, mostly for the masses of people.

It may be meaningless to some people but it is what God is, there is no other God, and there is no form or image to look for.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:



It may be meaningless to some people but it is what God is, there is no other God, and there is no form or image to look for.



It should be meaningless to everyone because you have yet to justify why 'reality is god' is at all true, let alone how it is worth any intellectual debate or understanding.

It neither helps us explain anything, nor predict anything. It is as meanignful as me saying that my dog is god; which is to say, not meaningful at all.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

But that's exactly what I'm saying! God is not some being that can come down from places and talk to people, and if God was some sort of being like that I would violently disbelieve. Why? Because it is limited into a form, within the universe. My idea of God is not just pulled out of nowhere, it's from the Qur'an, you can read about it in my Islam questions post. That's what the God of Islam is, the power in Taoism, somewhat the belief of Hinduism (some guru's say that though Hinduism has many Gods they are representations of the aspects and attributes of the one power).

This idea is an old one. Human beings tend to humanize it themselves to make it easier to preach and comprehend, mostly for the masses of people.

It may be meaningless to some people but it is what God is, there is no other God, and there is no form or image to look for.



If God is the "reality" that you speak of, then there's no reason for me to believe in it. And if I do believe in it, what then? It won't change anything in my life. I will simply be enlightened to the fact that "God is reality", whatever that means. Whether I believe or not in the God of Reality, it holds no bearing on my actions or my life.

If God is the Judeo-Christian God or Vishnu or whatever the fuck else, when it appears to me I'll believe it's there, but it doesn't mean I'll suck it's dick.

Tell me what you think of this

Lets say on day we found an living alien planted that practices an region (that believes in God) very close to one of Earth's, were very human like or were human and no prior communication is found between this planet the outside.

How would that be for proof?

Would you think some one set it up other than God(ie more aliens) if there was nothing to sugest it?





[This message has been edited by Q777 (edited 05-19-2006).]

how can you attempt to prove god with a hypothetical question about aliens?

And since when do gods need to be "proven?" Faith is defined as "Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence."

quote:Originally posted by Shizm:

how can you attempt to prove god with a hypothetical question about aliens?

And since when do gods need to be "proven?" Faith is defined as "Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence."

I am trying to prove the existance of God with my question, This is not true. No I am simply asking if that would be proof enough for some people

And since when have the existence of gods need to be "proven"? Since his existence has been questioned. Not to say its even possible to even proves gods existence.

But to have faith, that's a choice. Most people, that have faith in god, will suffice for some one telling him or here that gods there.

[This message has been edited by Q777 (edited 05-20-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

In what book

Perhaps every error in human perception with regards to "God" is that we assume that we have ever known it ["God"] before.

quote:Originally posted by Crippled Lucifer:

Perhaps every error in human perception with regards to "God" is that we assume that we have ever known it ["God"] before.

True, but could you elaborate?

If a massive guy came down from the sky and could perform mirricles that are IMPOSSIBLE like, point at a cup and it turns into a chicken infront of my eyes without it being out of my sight unlike most magic tricks.

Then i would be happy to believe.

quote:Originally posted by among_the_living:

If a massive guy came down from the sky and could perform mirricles that are IMPOSSIBLE like, point at a cup and it turns into a chicken infront of my eyes without it being out of my sight unlike most magic tricks.

Then i would be happy to believe.

Why would you believe in something that is limited to a form? That is within reality? That Reality Encompasses? If Reality didn't have the possibility for the massive being to do that, the massive being could do that. If reality didnt have the space or capacity to allow for the possibility of the massive being, then the massive being wouldnt exist. In other words, Why would you believe in something that is limited to a form and is within the bounds of Reality?

to me .... god would be someone who creates the universe and everything in it.

something that knows absolutely everything.

the owner and controller of eveything the knower of all things known, unknown, and unknowable.

the be all and the end all.

proving all the above could be difficult.

but for me to be dead certain i mean 100 percent certain of his existance....

he would have to do at least the following

1.create a book called 'whatever' and have in it loads of stories of how he does exist and maybe this book could start with a story of how he created the world in maybe 7 days ...

2.then he would have to at least have a son or daughter that the book says interacts with some of us.

3.then this son or daughter would have to be crucified on a wooden cross...

4.finally this son or daughter would at least have to come alive again after a few days.

i would not actuall have to see all the above to beleive...... as long as it is all in the book ...then that is proof isnt it 100 percent proof .........isnt it?????

It is egotistical for religions or anyone to put God into a human figure. To me God is a force that transcends the concepts of space and time and is everywhere.

To eBlip

Your obviously believe that the bible proves God's existence and I ask what you would consider proof. If you consider these stories as proof you have provided an answer to my question.

quote:Originally posted by eBlip:

to me .... god would be someone who creates the universe and everything in it.

something that knows absolutely everything.

the owner and controller of eveything the knower of all things known, unknown, and unknowable.

the be all and the end all.

proving all the above could be difficult.

but for me to be dead certain i mean 100 percent certain of his existance....

he would have to do at least the following

1.create a book called 'whatever' and have in it loads of stories of how he does exist and maybe this book could start with a story of how he created the world in maybe 7 days ...

2.then he would have to at least have a son or daughter that the book says interacts with some of us.

3.then this son or daughter would have to be crucified on a wooden cross...

4.finally this son or daughter would at least have to come alive again after a few days.

i would not actuall have to see all the above to beleive...... as long as it is all in the book ...then that is proof isnt it 100 percent proof .........isnt it?????

"to me .... god would be someone who creates the universe and everything in it."

How Can "someone" create the universe? "someones" need the universe to exist within, they cant exist outside of it and its rules or else they wouldnt be "someone".

"something that knows absolutely everything.

the owner and controller of eveything the knower of all things known, unknown, and unknowable."

I can Agree with you there.

"2.then he would have to at least have a son or daughter that the book says interacts with some of us.

3.then this son or daughter would have to be crucified on a wooden cross...

4.finally this son or daughter would at least have to come alive again after a few days.

"

God with a SON? So God is no better than a man having children? I would disbelieve in the above blasphemy outright.

"i would not actuall have to see all the above to beleive...... as long as it is all in the book ...then that is proof isnt it 100 percent proof .........isnt it?????"

A Book that says God has a Son is not Proof, but a humanization of something far greater than they can comprehend.

Wouldn't a "God" be beyond Sons?

How can a "God" be "Someone" Before the Universe exists? Someone implying an image or a form or a limit.

I want to discuss further with you on MSN Messenger, AIM, or Yahoo Messenger! What's your MSN?

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

Why would you believe in something that is limited to a form? That is within reality? That Reality Encompasses? If Reality didn't have the possibility for the massive being to do that, the massive being could do that. If reality didnt have the space or capacity to allow for the possibility of the massive being, then the massive being wouldnt exist. In other words, Why would you believe in something that is limited to a form and is within the bounds of Reality?



I believe in my Dad. He's a great, smart, nice guy. He is certainly limited to a form and is within the bounds of reality, but I try not to hold it against him.

Allow me to point out (in case you were on drugs) that you are limited to a form within the bounds of reality. Cause, you know, I understand that LSD could make you think otherwise, but yea.

And you're right. God coming down to Earth and limiting himself to a limited form within reality, but then performing impossible miracles that prove he is God (which would mean he was not limited to reality...) would make people stop believing in God.

You're completely right, the best way for him to prove he is God is to do absolutely nothing because then we will know he is not limited to a form in reality, and therefore must exist.

quote:Originally posted by Q777:

To eBlip

Your obviously believe that the bible proves God's existence and I ask what you would consider proof. If you consider these stories as proof you have provided an answer to my question.

i think you got me wrong mate.....i was being sarcastic....the whole statement is sarcasm.

quote:Originally posted by eBlip:

i think you got me wrong mate.....i was being sarcastic....the whole statement is sarcasm.

Oh sorry, I live with bible thumpers and I have heard some things much farther out than that, but they were serious.

quote:Originally posted by Q777:

Oh sorry, I live with bible thumpers and I have heard some things much farther out than that, but they were serious.

the truth is.... for me...

i cannot prove there isnt a god

i connot prove there is a god

so i dont waste my time....on either

i spend my life working out and pondering that which i KNOW exists.... which is 'myself'

even my friends and family could be a figment of my imagination....the only thing i need no proof of ....is that i exist...whatever i am.

and it is this 'i' that i investigate deeply and profoundly......to know what it is that i am.

i know i am......but what is that 'i am'?

note...

above i am being truth full....no sarcasm.

quote:Originally posted by IanBoyd3:

I believe in my Dad. He's a great, smart, nice guy. He is certainly limited to a form and is within the bounds of reality, but I try not to hold it against him.

Allow me to point out (in case you were on drugs) that you are limited to a form within the bounds of reality. Cause, you know, I understand that LSD could make you think otherwise, but yea.

And you're right. God coming down to Earth and limiting himself to a limited form within reality, but then performing impossible miracles that prove he is God (which would mean he was not limited to reality...) would make people stop believing in God.

You're completely right, the best way for him to prove he is God is to do absolutely nothing because then we will know he is not limited to a form in reality, and therefore must exist.

"Believe" is a "God". Of course me and you and your lovely daddy exist within Reality, but I'm not more of a "God" than any other part of Reality, its all part of Reality the same. Yes I'm limited to a form within Reality, therefor I am not God.

Reality is what would allow for the possibilities for miracles to exist, for a form to exist, and all that, absolutely everything that can happen including "miracles" if they do happen, it means that they are within the bounds of "Reality" still. You can go to Q777's other post where I talk more about it. Performing "Miracles" within "Reality" means "Reality" has the capacity and the possibility already prepared for it, thus the miracle can manifest itself.

The only true God is Reality, we all exist within it and we are all a part of it. A man performing "miracles" doesn't make him God, he would still be performing these "miracles" within Reality, Reality allowing him to do his performance and be seen, he is completely dependant still. Reality is essentially all there is, The One, True, God.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

It should be meaningless to everyone because you have yet to justify why 'reality is god' is at all true, let alone how it is worth any intellectual debate or understanding.

It neither helps us explain anything, nor predict anything. It is as meanignful as me saying that my dog is god; which is to say, not meaningful at all.

It is not irrelevant. I am telling you what God is, the only God there will ever be for you. It is not the same as saying your Dog is God, your Dog is within Reality, made of Reality, part of Reality. What you have to do is shed your preconception of God and understand what the true power is.

It isn't worth an intellectual debate because it is a simple fact that the only thing that has all the power in your life, that you are completely dependant on, is Reality, that is your "God". Your Dog is not Reality, nor does it has control over anything in the sense that Reality and all the possibilities it gives us has absolutely control on everything.

quote:Originally posted by realitycourse:

It is egotistical for religions or anyone to put God into a human figure. To me God is a force that transcends the concepts of space and time and is everywhere.

You're right! God is the force that transcends the concepts of space and time and is everywhere, and what is that? Reality! Just like in your name! God is the Reality we exist within and are made of, which we are completely dependant on, yet we deem ourselves "self sufficient" when we are COMPLETELY dependant on Reality to hold us and allow us to do what we do. We are all made of it, within it, it is surrounding and encompassing everything.

Realitycourse understands, do any of you?

Well, no one here has met god, no one knows what he or she or it is really like. Everyone puts it into a form they like. We have no evidence of this god, we have no idea what it is really like - if it exists at all - until we die, so it’s pointless to believe or worship it because you have no idea what it is.

i would have to sit down with jesus and god in my backyard and have a tea party were they described in depth the meaning of life and the science behind existence... and how he did... everyhting... then i would like be... makes sence...

quote:Originally posted by scorpion:

i would have to sit down with jesus and god in my backyard and have a tea party were they described in depth the meaning of life and the science behind existence... and how he did... everyhting... then i would like be... makes sence...

No one has ever MET God cause there is absolutely nothing to Meet that you havent already MET! If there is some form you are expecting I guarantee that is not God, The only God you will ever know is Reality, understand you are completely dependant on it, be humble in this realization and gain knowledge, better yourself and help those around you if you can.

I've said what God is, the only True God, the only God there will ever be for you. Don't expect anything else, cause nothing you can experience within reality can be God, and nothing can exist without outide of Reality, Reality is it, That is the God. Anything else is falsehood.

Eblip wrote:

___________________________________________

even my friends and family could be a figment of my imagination....the only thing i need no proof of ....is that i exist...whatever i am.

and it is this 'i' that i investigate deeply and profoundly......to know what it is that i am.

i know i am......but what is that 'i am'?

note...

above i am being truth full....no sarcasm.

___________________________________________

You are nothing but pure consciousness.



There is no God, just like there is no devil, they are concepts that are made up in your head that stem from the ego. There is no Heaven, there is no Hell.

The only real world is within yourself, and if you decide to embrace that concepts that religion are based under then look forward to getting trapped in false hope and dependence.

Your friends and family are figments of your imagination.

Taken from another post:

____________________________________________

Every observer has the same consciousness and awareness. If one person observes a red object then the other person also observes a red object. That is because the consciousness collapses the wave function, thus all consciousness is universal.

So in other words the concept of objective reality rests on the assumption that there exist observers who are external to me, and who can confirm my own observations. Ever since we have been young we grew up without questioning this concept. Hmm you may begin to make sense of this if you stop to consider that, not only is objective reality supposed to be external and independent of your mind, but so also the “external” observer who you depend to confirm you own observations of objective reality.

For example, the observer who is external to you is not in fact independent of your mind at all but is part of your subjective reality. Ie image in your mind. You need to understand reality is what is, without conceptualisation. Therefore objective reality is only a concept and cannot be proved. Even though it is use for communication, for health and for survival, it does not represent reality and therefore it will bring suffering if it is taken to be real.

The only reason we suffer is because it defines external observers as being objects that are external to me, so logically I am external to them. Thus it defines me as being part of their objective reality which means that I am separate from them. As long as you identify with a separate objective you, then you will unable to realise your true nature and suffer.

Objective reality becomes nothing but an appearance or image in your mind, just as subjective reality. The world in your mind is the only world that you can perceive directly. All bodies and other objects in this world are nothing but images in your mind.

___________________________________________

That means if dived in deeper, you will realize that the only affirmation in this reality that works is: “Nothing exists” “I don’t Exist”

The unreality of the ego (the false image in your mind) is the ego’s best kept secret.

Everything dualistic is born from the concepts of space and time. They are just concepts and do not exist either. No God/Devil, Right/Wrong. Heaven/Hell, Good/Evil. The ego is born out of the concept of space, and makes you feel separate.

I will say this once again...

We are much as God is, as God is himself!

You just gotta know how to connect...

Fly on brothers http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Rather, to the above, we are all part of God, but we are not the whole of God(Reality).