quote:Mormons openly profess to believe in Jesus Christ. But is their Jesus different from the Jesus of the Bible?

It’s not uncommon for Mormons to argue that they should be regarded as Christians because their faith is centered on Jesus Christ. And while this may appear to be the case from the perspective of the Mormon Church, there can be little doubt that the Jesus preached by Mormonism is not the Jesus of the Bible.

Simply believing in someone named Jesus will not solve the issue for Mormons because — as the apostle Paul warns in 2 Corinthians 11:4 — there are some who preach a different Jesus. For example, while the Bible teaches that Jesus has always existed as God (John 1:1), Mormons see Jesus as someone who worked His way up to godhood. In fact, to Mormons, Jesus is merely one in purpose with God the Father; whereas the Bible declares that the Father and the Son are also one in essence (cf. Phil. 2:6) — that they are both equally God and members of the Holy Trinity.

This leads me to what is perhaps the most problematic matter facing Mormons with regard to their view of Christ. You see, in their attempt to evade charges of polytheism — which, of course, is the belief in or worship of more than one god — Mormons end up prohibiting prayer to Jesus. Mormons confess that they believe in the existence of many gods but pray only to God the Father. Well, in light of the Bible’s explicit command to pray to Jehovah (cf. Deut. 4:7; 2 Chron. 7:14; Pss. 5:2; 32:6; Jer. 27:7, 12), it’s simply incredible that Mormons refuse to pray to Jesus while yet acknowledging Him to be Jehovah! In addition, let me point you to passages like John 14:14 and Romans 10:12 which demonstrate beyond the shadow of a doubt that believers ought to pray to Jesus.

Mormons can claim to believe in Jesus all they want, but it’s apparent from their teachings that the Jesus they profess is definitely not the Jesus of the Bible. The truth is they worship another Jesus, proclaim another gospel, and teach the skin of the truth stuffed with a lie.

The above exerpt is from Hank Hanegraaff.

I used to think that Mormonism was just a strange form of Christianity, and my error came precisely from what Hank says: the misperception that someone claiming to believe in Jesus Christ makes them a Christian.

It's such a simple concept, that I can't believe I missed it.

I have always said that TRUE Christianity is nothing like the world perceives it (mostly Christianity is defined by the mistakes and atrocities committed by the Catholic Church). It was a bit humbling to recognize that I wasn't applying my own logic to Mormonism.

Anyway, I'm not trying to bash Mormonism. I am just pointing out that it's not a Christian religion, and that is an important distinction.

I never realised anyone thought of Mormons as Christians. :-S

I just associated "belief in Jesus Christ" with "Christian."

Just run of the mill ignorance, on my part. *shrugs*

whoa, whoa, whoa. No one ever said they were christian.



for gods sake they don't even have a bible. they have a book written by a man that a hat told him to write.

[This message has been edited by bushy (edited 05-19-2006).]

Mormonism and Christianity worship the same God. Just the Mormons think he lives somewahare near the star or planet Kolob (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolob) and think that he has many wifes.

So one is slightly more fucking insane than the other? Gotcha.

quote:Originally posted by Q777:

Mormonism and Christianity worship the same God. Just the Mormons think he lives somewahare near the star or planet Kolob (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolob) and think that he has many wifes.

Only Scientology is more ridiculous.

quote:Originally posted by jsaxton14:

Only Scientology is more ridiculous.

Christianity is pretty ridiculous.

quote:Originally posted by bushy:

whoa, whoa, whoa. No one ever said they were christian.



for gods sake they don't even have a bible. they have a book written by a man that a hat told him to write.



They consider themselves christians ine very extent of the word... mormons definatly AREN'T christians though- they're true cultists.

On a smiler note my history book would suggest they are protestant Christians.

quote:Originally posted by bushy:

whoa, whoa, whoa. No one ever said they were christian.



for gods sake they don't even have a bible. they have a book written by a man that a hat told him to write.

Sorry, but they have the Book of Mormon, which they claim is an addendum to the Bible.

THEY claim themselves to be Christian, and I had never honestly heard otherwise. Don't say "no one ever said" because you can't possibly prove or know that to be true.

quote:Originally posted by Q777:

Mormonism and Christianity worship the same God. Just the Mormons think he lives somewahare near the star or planet Kolob (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolob) and think that he has many wifes.

Worshipping the same God doesn't make the same religion. Christianity is the faith in Jesus Christ, who died for our salvation. Mormons do not believe that.

Also, their belief about "God" is as far removed from Christianity as their belief in Jesus Christ.

Study their religion before you post.

quote:Originally posted by Q777:

On a smiler note my history book would suggest they are protestant Christians.

See ? Point proven. They have to subscribe to the Salvation-By-Faith theology of Christianity in order to be "Christian."

guess what you piece of shit, your heretic protestant sect isn't christian either. you can't just throw out millenia of esoteric wisom, rewrite the bible to your own liking, renounce the church of peter, and claim to be christian. if they aren't christians, neither are you, you low life piece of shit who practices a religion invented less than 500 years ago. fuck off, you are no better than a mormon.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

See ? Point proven. They have to subscribe to the Salvation-By-Faith theology of Christianity in order to be "Christian."

I believe you mean salvation by faith AND good works....

It's a common mistake for protestants to make though...

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Worshipping the same God doesn't make the same religion. Christianity is the faith in Jesus Christ, who died for our salvation. Mormons do not believe that.

Also, their belief about "God" is as far removed from Christianity as their belief in Jesus Christ.

Study their religion before you post.

I mention the Mormons belief in god to point out that there not Christians do to there vastly different beliefs.

I mention that my history book says there Christians because I thought it has been establish that they wern't Christians and I wished to poke fun at my history book.

i agree with digital on this.

From the official Church of Latter Day Saints website:

quote:When Jesus Christ lived on the earth, He organized His Church so that all people could receive His gospel and return one day to live with God, our Heavenly Father. After Jesus Christ ascended to heaven, His Apostles continued to receive revelation from Him on how to direct the work of His Church. However, after they were killed, members changed the teachings of the Church that He had established. While many good people and some truth remained, this Apostasy, or general falling away from the truth, brought about the withdrawal of the Church from the earth. The Apostle Peter prophesied that Jesus would restore His Church before His Second Coming (Acts 3:19–21).

Jesus Christ began to restore His Church in its fulness to the earth through the Prophet Joseph Smith in 1820. It has grown to become a worldwide Church with over 12 million members. It has the same teachings and basic organization as the Church established by Jesus in New Testament times.

Well, not quite.

Mormons will bear their testimony to you and tell you that they know the Mormon church is true and that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God. They say their testimony is in their heart. The Bible says not to trust your heart because it is deceitful. "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?" (Jer. 17:9).

Mormons say they get their testimony by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit bears witness of the truth. The Holy Spirit bears witness of Jesus (John 15:26) and that Jesus sends the Holy Spirit (John 15:26). A "false" Jesus will not send the true Spirit of God. The point is that only the Jesus of the Bible will send the Holy Spirit. If they don't have the right Jesus, they can't have the true Holy Spirit, and their testimony is invalid. We will show that the Jesus in the Book of Mormon is NOT the Jesus of the Bible.

Mormons believe that if you read the Book of Mormon and then pray and ask God whether or not it is true, you will receive a testimony from the Holy Spirit verifying its truth. God never says to pray about truth. He says to search the Scriptures to find truth (Acts 17:11; 2 Tim. 3:16).

The Mormon Jesus

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>

<LI>The literal son of god and his goddess wife.

<LI>The brother of all spirits born in heaven.

<LI>Was married and had wives.

<LI>One of 3 gods in the godhead.

<LI>The Trinity is three separate gods.

<LI>Had a beginning.

<LI>Atoned for sin on the cross and in the garden of Gethsemene.

<LI>Was born in Jerusalem (Book of Mormon, Alma 7:9,10).

<LI>Brother of Lucifer.

<LI>Jesus' sacrifice was not able to cleanse us from all our sins, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p. 247, 1856.

<LI>There is no salvation without accepting <LI>Joseph Smith as a prophet of God, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1, p. 188.

<LI>Jesus is a created being (though the title page of the Book of Mormon says that Jesus is the Christ the Eternal God)</UL>

The Christian Jesus

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>

<LI>Not the literal son of god and his goddess wife.

<LI>Not the brother of all spirits born in heaven.

<LI>Was not married and did not have wives.

<LI>Not one of 3 gods in the godhead.

<LI>The Trinity is 3 persons in one God.

Did not have a beginning.

<LI>Atoned for sin on the cross alone.

<LI>Was born in Bethlehem.

<LI>Not the brother of Lucifer.

<LI>His atoning death on the cross was able to cleanse all sins.

<LI>Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. No one goes to Heaven without Him. Source (http://tinyurl.com/njs5r)</UL>

And that's just Jesus. There are so many other ways that Mormonism not only contradicts itself, but contradicts Christianity, that it is impossible to claim that it is a Christian denomination.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

I believe you mean salvation by faith AND good works....

It's a common mistake for protestants to make though...

Actually, it's a common mistake for Catholics to think they have to work their way into heaven, because faith isn't enough.

Works come naturally to a believer, as the Holy Spirit starts to live inside of them. Salvation is NOT contingent upon works, and there are numerous verses supporting that.

Since works without faith do not save you, it is illogical to say that works have anything to do with salvation.

quote:Originally posted by Myron Mujadi:

guess what you piece of shit, your heretic protestant sect isn't christian either. you can't just throw out millenia of esoteric wisom, rewrite the bible to your own liking, renounce the church of peter, and claim to be christian. if they aren't christians, neither are you, you low life piece of shit who practices a religion invented less than 500 years ago. fuck off, you are no better than a mormon.

Which sect would that be, bigot ?

I doubt you even know...

you aren't anglican or lutheran, which means you're one of the denominations that just made shit up and deleted the parts of the bible they didn't like, and basically rewrote millenia of doctrine. youre a heretic phony, and your televangalist ways make the real christians look bad. but that's probably your goal, isn't it?

burn in hellfire, heretic scum.

I'm neither Luthern, nor Anglican.

Guess you're as stupid as I thought.

Digital, do you have MSN Messenger? If so, may I add you there? If not, do you have AIM or Yahoo Messenger? May I add you there as well?

Abrahim, you can reach me the following ways:

MSN: desired.hush@hotmail.com

AIM: desired hush

IRC (Slashnet): Digital

quote:

John 14:14: "If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it."

Romans 10:12-13 "For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."



If anything, those above verses should be used to prove our point, for he says not "if you ask me for anything, I'll do it" but "if you ask anything in my name I will do it." As Mormons, we end all our prayers, which we pray to the LORD, with the words "in jesus name" or something to that effect. The other verse is kinda self explanatory. It says "whosoever shall call upon the name of the lord" not "the name of jesus".

This seems to me to simply be a case of another preacher who says away from quoting verses, as many of his congregation may interpret them differently, but instead simply references them, so that his parishioners will believe that he's read them.

To wrap up my contention of our prayers, let us not forget luke 11:2-4

code:<pre>And he said unto them, When ye pray, say,



Our Father which art in heaven,

Hallowed be thy name.

Thy kingdom come.

Thy will be done,

as in heaven, so in earth.

3 Give us day by day our daily bread.

4 And forgive us our sins;



for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us.

And lead us not into temptation;

but deliver us from evil.</pre>

This is the "classic" prayer, The Lord's Prayer. Although we do not recite this prayer as some do, we use it as a guide. The first line of the prayer is "our father, which art in heaven", instructing us to pray to God, the father, not to his Son, Jesus Christ. Besides, you believe the two are the same thing right, so why should it matter? Unless somewhere within you there is doubt that they are one in being...

In truth, the only real point you have against us is that we do not believe in the trinity. There are many other Christian sects which are either skeptical of your interpretation of john, or outright deny it. They fit within your definition of "Christian", however you use our rejection of that simple doctrine as cause to distance our entire faith because we are different from you, because in most ways we are better than you.

You preach a gospel of faith, and your parishioners perform works which are repugnant in the sight of God.

You preach a gospel of love, yet your parishioners are intolerant and hateful.

You preach a gospel of fidelity, yet your parishioners are rarely chaste.

You preach a gospel of obobedience, yet how many of you give 10%?

You preach a gospel of brotherhood, yet how many of you give of your time to help a brother in need?

You preach a gospel of temperance, yet how many of you defile yourselves with strong drink?

You decry us for our faults, but refuse to cast your eyes upon your own. Let us read Luke 6:42 "Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother’s eye."

I know in my heart that even if we prove to be incorrect, that I will see a great deal more Mormons at the pearly gates than I shall see your kind, as my kind come to God with a broken heart and a contrite spirit,(ps 34:18) whereas yours bring pride and wickedness. For shame.

[This message has been edited by Jaryohem063 (edited 05-20-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:



Mormons will bear their testimony to you and tell you that they know the Mormon church is true and that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God. They say their testimony is in their heart. The Bible says not to trust your heart because it is deceitful. "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?" (Jer. 17:9).

Mormons say they get their testimony by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit bears witness of the truth. The Holy Spirit bears witness of Jesus (John 15:26) and that Jesus sends the Holy Spirit (John 15:26). A "false" Jesus will not send the true Spirit of God. The point is that only the Jesus of the Bible will send the Holy Spirit. If they don't have the right Jesus, they can't have the true Holy Spirit, and their testimony is invalid. We will show that the Jesus in the Book of Mormon is NOT the Jesus of the Bible.



It is not the Jesus of your interpretation of the bible. There are many different interpretations of the bible. I have felt the spirit far greater in the LDS church than I have anywhere else.

quote:

Mormons believe that if you read the Book of Mormon and then pray and ask God whether or not it is true, you will receive a testimony from the Holy Spirit verifying its truth. God never says to pray about truth. He says to search the Scriptures to find truth (Acts 17:11; 2 Tim. 3:16).



These scriptures teach one to read the scriptures, and to study them, not to reprove the truth given by prayer. Read james 1:5 quote:If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

The next time you want to quote scripture, I challenge you to quote it, not simply reference it. quote:

The Mormon Jesus

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>

<LI>The literal son of god and his goddess wife.

<LI>The brother of all spirits born in heaven.

<LI>Was married and had wives.This is not mormon doctrine

<LI>One of 3 gods in the godhead.

<LI>The Trinity is three separate gods.Wow, two seperate points that say the SAME thing, you must be going for numbers here, not a point. I've spoken of this point in other posts.

<LI>Had a beginning.

<LI>Atoned for sin on the cross and in the garden of Gethsemene.Whoopdee fucking do, we believe that he atoned for our sins in two places! I find it odd that you guys all hail the passion of the christ, which has all those scenes of the torture of Jesus, but believe that the atonement only happened on the cross, therefore making all that torture worthless.

<LI>Was born in Jerusalem (Book of Mormon, Alma 7:9,10).This was prophecy in the book of mormon. Since the prophecy was aimed at people who had never been in the holy land, I sincerely doubt that this point means much. When we speak of the birth of Jesus, we speak of him having been born in bethlehem. This point is wrong.

<LI>Brother of Lucifer.This also says the same as point #2.

<LI>Jesus' sacrifice was not able to cleanse us from all our sins, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p. 247, 1856.The JOD is not always doctrine.

<LI>There is no salvation without accepting <LI>Joseph Smith as a prophet of God, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1, p. 188.Tell me how this has anything to do with Jesus?

<LI>Jesus is a created being (though the title page of the Book of Mormon says that Jesus is the Christ the Eternal God)</UL>

The Christian Jesus

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>

<LI>Not the literal son of god and his goddess wife.

<LI>Not the brother of all spirits born in heaven.

<LI>Was not married and did not have wives.

<LI>Not one of 3 gods in the godhead.

<LI>The Trinity is 3 persons in one God.

Did not have a beginning.

<LI>Atoned for sin on the cross alone.

<LI>Was born in Bethlehem.

<LI>Not the brother of Lucifer.

<LI>His atoning death on the cross was able to cleanse all sins.

<LI>Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. No one goes to Heaven without Him.We believe this as much as you do. I don't see how this proves anything wrong about us. Source (http://tinyurl.com/njs5r)</UL>

And that's just Jesus. There are so many other ways that Mormonism not only contradicts itself, but contradicts Christianity, that it is impossible to claim that it is a Christian denomination.

Every decent argument you have had comes back to one single point, that you believe he's the same as God and we dont. That's hardly "so many ways".

You're an idiot.

Why don't you come up with some of your own ideas, rather than quoting all the meat of your posts from other people?

[This message has been edited by Jaryohem063 (edited 05-20-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Myron Mujadi:

you aren't anglican or lutheran, which means you're one of the denominations that just made shit up, etc, etc.

burn in hellfire, heretic scum.

quote: I'm neither Luthern, nor Anglican.

Guess you're as stupid as I thought.



learn to read you dumb sack of shit, that's exactly what i said. which means you are one of the protestant sects that has ZERO legitimacy, and zero connection to the original teachings of the Messiah.

you are so stupid. hot damn.

quote:Originally posted by Myron Mujadi:



you are so stupid. hot damn.



Quoted for truth.

It's really too bad that you spent so much time on this, because in the end, you didn't really say anything. http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Jaryohem063:

John 14:14: "If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it."

Romans 10:12-13 "For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

If anything, those above verses should be used to prove our point, for he says not "if you ask me for anything, I'll do it" but "if you ask anything in my name I will do it." As mormons, we end all our prayers, which we pray to the LORD, with the words "in jesus name" or something to that effect. The other verse is kinda self explanatory. It says "whosoever shall call upon the name of the lord" not "the name of jesus".

John 14:14 cannot be read lightly. Asking things in Jesus' name doesn't imply that you will get whatever you want. Also, this isn't about prayer. This is about doctrinal differences. Mormonism is completely contradictory to the Bible, which is what Christianity is based off of. Therefore, it's not a Christian denomination. It's simply Mormonism.

As for the second verse, Jesus is called Lord by his own Apostles several times.

quote:This seems to me to simply be a case of another preacher who shys away from quoting verses, as many of his congregation may interpret them differently, but instead simply references them, so that his parishoners will believe that he's read them.

This is a case of you not understanding Biblical scripture.

quote:To wrap up my contention of our prayers, let us not forget luke 11:2-4

[CODE]And he said unto them, When ye pray, say,



Our Father which art in heaven,

Hallowed be thy name.

Thy kingdom come.

Thy will be done,

as in heaven, so in earth.

3 Give us day by day our daily bread.

4 And forgive us our sins;



for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us.

And lead us not into temptation;

but deliver us from evil.

This is the "classic" prayer, the our father. Although we do not recite this prayer as some do, we use it as a guide. The first line of the prayer is "our father, which art in heaven", instructing us to pray to God, the father, not to his Son, Jesus Christ. Besides, you believe the two are the same thing right, so why should it matter? Unless somewhere within you there is doubt that they are one in being...

And here you prove what I have already said, which is that Mormons do not believe that Jesus is God. They are one, though separate.

I like to use the anology of H20. It can come in three forms: liquid, ice, and vapor. However, it is still all H20.

When you pray to God the Father, it is no different than praying to Jesus the Son, as the Son and the Father are one. This doesn't prove that Mormonism is Christianity, however, so I don't see why you brought it up.

quote:In truth, the only real point you have against us is that we do not believe in the trinity. There are many other christian sects which are either skeptical of your interpretation of john, or outright deny it. They fit within your definition of "christian", however you use our rejection of that simple doctrine as cause to distance our entire faith because we are different from you, because in most ways we are better than you.

No, I listed several points, and that was just about Jesus. I could continue on into the doctrinal heresy contained in the other texts Mormonism uses, such as The Pearl of Great Price, if you'd like.

If you don't believe that Jesus was born of a virgin, and was God from conception, you are not a Christian.

Ah, I see. You are better than "who" exactly ? Do you even know which "who" I belong to ?

quote:You preach a gospell of faith, and your parishoners perform works which are repugnant in the sight of God.

Which works do "we" perform that God finds repugnant, exactly ?

You believe you can achieve godship. Don't you think God might find that repugnant ?

Yeah...it's called blasphemy.

quote:You preach a gospell of love, yet your parishoners are intolerant and hateful.

You preach a gospell of fidelity, yet your parishoners are rarely chaste.

You preach a gospell of obediance, yet how many of you give 10%?

You preach a gospell of brotherhood, yet how many of you give of your time to help a brother in need?

You preach a gospel of temperance, yet how many of you defile yourselves with strong drink?

You decry us for our faults, but refuse to cast your eyes upon your own. Let us read Luke 6:42 "Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother’s eye."

I know in my heart that even if we prove to be incorrect, that I will see a great deal more mormons at the pearly gates than I shall see your kind, as my kind come to God with a broken heart and a contrite spirit,(ps 34:18) whereas yours bring pride and wickedness. For shame.

Um...all I can say is one word:

CULT

When you can formulate a legitimate argument, I will rebut. Until then, I shall pray for you.

quote:Originally posted by Myron Mujadi:

learn to read you dumb sack of shit, that's exactly what i said. which means you are one of the protestant sects that has ZERO legitimacy, and zero connection to the original teachings of the Messiah.

you are so stupid. hot damn.



Ok, I stand corrected. You said "aren't" not "are."

Now I challenge you to prove your fallacious assertion that Protestant sects contain "ZERO legitimacy, and zero connection to the original teachings of the Messiah."

quote:Originally posted by Jaryohem063:

Quoted for truth.

That was very Mormon of you. You're pretty angry, for someone who aspires to be a god. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

quote:These scriptures teach one to read the scriptures, and to study them, not to reprove the truth given by prayer. Read james 1:5

Well, thanks for completely ignoring the actual contradiction contained in your doctrine, which was succinctly presented in the paragraphs I provided.

Can you please address that, since what you have said has nothing to do with what I posted ?

quote:The next time you want to quote scripture, I challenge you to quote it, not simply reference it.

I expect you to be able to look up scriptures, as a Mormon. Is that too hard ?

Also, I hope you don't think that this makes you "correct." I can see your strategy now...divert, divert, divert !

Can you please deal with the actual doctrinal contradictions in Mormonism, as it relates to Christianity ?

Thank you.

quote:Wow, two seperate points that say the SAME thing, you must be going for numbers here, not a point. I've spoken of this point in other posts.

Actually, the two points you are referring to deal with two separate theological fallacies.

One being that God is but one entity, not 3 separate gods, and the other being that the Trinity is God in three persons.

quote:Whoopdee fucking do, we believe that he atoned for our sins in two places! I find it odd that you guys all hail the passion of the christ, which has all those scenes of the torture of Jesus, but believe that the atonement only happened on the cross, therefore making all that torture worthless.

It's not scriptural. If your religion picks and chooses what it wants, and injects it's own opinion for the rest, it is doctrinally unsound, at the very best. Your words still do not prove that Mormonism is Christianity.

The torture was not "sacrificial." A solid understanding of Jewish custom would teach you that it was the death of Christ that atoned for our sin, not his being beaten.

As a matter of fact, Jesus makes it a point to be known as "the sacrifical lamb."

Again, adding to the text is heresy.

Why are you cussing at me ?

* Was born in Jerusalem (Book of Mormon, Alma 7:9,10).

quote:This was prophecy in the book of mormon. Since the prophecy was aimed at people who had never been in the holy land, I sincerely doubt that this point means much. When we speak of the birth of Jesus, we speak of him having been born in bethlehem. This point is wrong.

There is no Biblically scriptural reason to believe that the Book of Mormon, or any other additional text, was necessary. That alone is heresy.

I will not argue the contextual accuracy of the Book of Mormon, as it will no sooner prove that Mormons are Christians than will the Bible.

Basically, you are admitting that the Bible says one thing, and the Book of Mormon says another. I think you have proven my point beautifully, so thank you.

quote:This also says the same as point #2.

Hmmm...All Spirits in Heaven = Lucifer ?

quote:The JOD is not always doctrine.

How can you believe in a religion that has so many books, and claims that not all of them can be used all the time ?

Jesus' blood DOES cleanse us of our sins, and this is repeated throughout the Prophets (OT) and in the Gospels (NT) several times. Any doctrine (Book of Mormon, JOD, etc.) that deviates from this teaching is simply deviating, which means it's not Christianity.

quote:Tell me how this has anything to do with Jesus?

You are absolutely right, it's not about Jesus, but it does show that Joseph Smith appointed HIMSELF as a prophet, though the Bible makes it clear that the Age of Prophets is OVER.

Again, doctrinal deviation.

quote:We believe this as much as you do. I don't see how this proves anything wrong about us.

You believe that Jesus is the only way to salvation, but you don't believe he atoned for all sins ? How the hell does THAT work ?

quote:Every decent argument you have had comes back to one single point, that you believe he's the same as God and we dont. That's hardly "so many ways".

I only addressed the contradictions about Jesus Christ. If you'd like, I can dismantle the whole religion for you, though it will hardly matter, since you can't seem to produce a valid defense for the complete heresy and blasphemy of Mormonism.

quote:You're an idiot.

Thank you, brother. I shall tell God that you said so. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Why don't you come up with some of your own ideas, rather than quoting all the meat of your posts from other people?

Someone else already wrote it for me. It lacks intelligence to write it all over again.

Also, these little ad hom attacks do nothing for your argument, of which there is no substance to begin with.

quote:I know in my heart that even if we prove to be incorrect, that I will see a great deal more Mormons at the pearly gates than I shall see your kind, as my kind come to God with a broken heart and a contrite spirit,(ps 34:18) whereas yours bring pride and wickedness. For shame.

I challenge you to QUOTE the scriptures, not just reference them, since you have asked the same of me. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 05-20-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Actually, it's a common mistake for Catholics to think they have to work their way into heaven, because faith isn't enough.

Works come naturally to a believer, as the Holy Spirit starts to live inside of them. Salvation is NOT contingent upon works, and there are numerous verses supporting that.

Since works without faith do not save you, it is illogical to say that works have anything to do with salvation.

And since faith without works to back it up does not save you, it is illogical to think that works have NOTHING to do with salvation.

You should really be reading your bible. The support for faith + good works is extensive, and I doubt that even you could explain it all away.

quote:John 14:14 cannot be read lightly. Asking things in Jesus' name doesn't imply that you will get whatever you want. Also, this isn't about prayer. This is about doctrinal differences. Mormonism is completely contradictory to the Bible, which is what Christianity is based off of. Therefore, it's not a Christian denomination. It's simply Mormonism.

As for the second verse, Jesus is called Lord by his own Apostles several times.

You really must have the attention span of a housefly.

I did not bring up prayer, the guy you quoted in your first post did. I was simply pointing out the flaws in his argument.

Mormonism is not "completely contradictory". There are quite few doctrines that you will find in our church which are not shared by some protestant denomination somewhere, and those you will are not ever expressly forbidden in the bible. This is simply a matter of interpretation, not anything more.

quote:This is a case of you not understanding Biblical scripture.

Explain how. Go scripture by scripture and tell me how I've misinterpreted them. And quote them, from the KJV, or your point is worthless.

quote:And here you prove what I have already said, which is that Mormons do not believe that Jesus is God. They are one, though separate.



Did I deny this?

quote:When you pray to God the Father, it is no different than praying to Jesus the Son, as the Son and the Father are one. This doesn't prove that Mormonism is Christianity, however, so I don't see why you brought it up.

To refute your preacher's claim that it is blasphemy not to pray to Jesus. For all his posturing, all the first guy had to say is that we aren't christian because we don't believe in the trinity and that we don't pray to Jesus. I "brought this up" in order to prove that the bible does not tell us to pray to jesus.

quote:No, I listed several points, and that was just about Jesus. I could continue on into the doctrinal heresy contained in the other texts Mormonism uses, such as The Pearl of Great Price, if you'd like.

Yes, please do, tell me how any of that proves that we are not christian.

quote:Ah, I see. You are better than "who" exactly ? Do you even know which "who" I belong to ?

If I recall correctly, some fundamentalist evangelical sect. In my experience any religious group who spends any of it's time talking about hell, and how anyone who believes anything other than what the preacher preaches is going there, is never a very godly breed.

quote:Which works do "we" perform that God finds repugnant, exactly ?

You do not give 10%, you lie, you cheat, and worst of all, you judge. Nobody beats fundie evangelicals in terms of judgement of others.

quote:You believe you can achieve godship. Don't you think God might find that repugnant ?

Yeah...it's called blasphemy.

We by no means say that we are as good as God. We simply believe that our term on this earth means something. And that our term in heaven will as well. We do not believe that we will be sitting on clouds strumming harps for all of eternity, we believe that we will continue to learn and to grow, and if you continue to learn and to grow forever, eventually, you'd become like God. Look at it mathmatically, if you add anything to yourself while in heaven, let's say you learn one new thing per year. If you're in heaven for an infinate ammount of time, eventually you'd have learned everything. That's how we become Gods, not by a wave of God's hand, but by hard work for a long, long time.

quote:Um...all I can say is one word:

CULT

When you can formulate a legitimate argument, I will rebut. Until then, I shall pray for you.

Wow, you brought up the word "cult", man, that certainly proves your point!

And simply because I did not formulate an argument that agrees with you and your interpretation of the bible does not make it illegitimate. Dont' be so judgemental. Open your mind, and open your heart.

Well, thanks for completely ignoring the actual contradiction contained in your doctrine, which was succinctly presented in the paragraphs I provided.

Can you please address that, since what you have said has nothing to do with what I posted ?[/b]

There is no contradiction. There is truth in prayer, and truth in scripture. To believe both is not a contradiction.

Unless you're talking about your "mormons can't feel the spirit because they don't teach the same Jesus we do, therefore their testimonies cant mean anything, and they are contradicting themselves" trash. I don't know even where to start with that. Let's just leave it with "you're stupid."

quote:I expect you to be able to look up scriptures, as a Mormon. Is that too hard ?

Also, I hope you don't think that this makes you "correct." I can see your strategy now...divert, divert, divert !

Can you please deal with the actual doctrinal contradictions in Mormonism, as it relates to Christianity ?

Thank you.

If anyone's diverting here, it's you. If you're so confidant in your scriptures, then post them for all to see.

quote:Actually, the two points you are referring to deal with two separate theological fallacies.

One being that God is but one entity, not 3 separate gods, and the other being that the Trinity is God in three persons.

No, that's the same thing. One is saying "Mormons are bad because they don't believe God is the same as Jesus" the other is saying "Mormons are bad because they believe God is different from Jesus."

That's one doctrine.

quote:It's not scriptural. If your religion picks and chooses what it wants, and injects it's own opinion for the rest, it is doctrinally unsound, at the very best. Your words still do not prove that Mormonism is Christianity.

The torture was not "sacrificial." A solid understanding of Jewish custom would teach you that it was the death of Christ that atoned for our sin, not his being beaten.

As a matter of fact, Jesus makes it a point to be known as "the sacrifical lamb."

Again, adding to the text is heresy.

So his horrible torture at the hands of roman soldiers means nothing to you? The fact that he gave that to you means nothing?

Yes, I understand that the death of Jesus Christ was the ultimate sacrifice, but his torture was a sacrifice as well. Our belief in that does not stop us from being christian. That is a stupid argument.

quote:There is no Biblically scriptural reason to believe that the Book of Mormon, or any other additional text, was necessary. That alone is heresy.

There is no biblically scriptural reason within the first four gospels that says that books like corinthians are nessecary, is there? The inspired words of prophets are always good reading.

quote:Hmmm...All Spirits in Heaven = Lucifer ?

Lucifer was a spirit in heaven at the beginning.

quote:Jesus' blood DOES cleanse us of our sins, and this is repeated throughout the Prophets (OT) and in the Gospels (NT) several times. Any doctrine (Book of Mormon, JOD, etc.) that deviates from this teaching is simply deviating, which means it's not Christianity.

I sincerely doubt that any of the journals of discourses claim that Jesus's blood did not cleanse us of our sins, as this was always a bedrock docrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. To claim otherwise is nothing more than a vile and odius lie. I am telling you, as a mormon, that never have I been told, nor will I ever be told otherwise. It is impossible to be mormon and to believe differently.

quote:You are absolutely right, it's not about Jesus, but it does show that Joseph Smith appointed HIMSELF as a prophet, though the Bible makes it clear that the Age of Prophets is OVER.

Again, doctrinal deviation.

Joseph smith, like every prophet ever, was appointed by GOD. Find me one verse which says that the time of prophets is over. Please do not say that the bible says something without supplying verses.

quote:[b]You believe that Jesus is the only way to salvation, but you don't believe he atoned for all sins ? How the hell does THAT work ?

I never said that, you did.

quote:[b]Also, these little ad hom attacks do nothing for your argument, of which there is no substance to begin with.

That itself was an ad hom attack upon me.

Again, my argument has plenty of substance, you simply refuse to see it because your preacher told you not to.

Can't we all agree Jesus is dead?

This thread rules. It's like a battle of the retards.

[This message has been edited by Real.PUA (edited 05-20-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Real.PUA:

This thread rules. It's like a battle of the retards (except Digi).

Fixed for truth.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

And since faith without works to back it up does not save you, it is illogical to think that works have NOTHING to do with salvation.

Please show me the scripture that says without works you will not go to Heaven, even if you have faith in Jesus Christ.

quote:You should really be reading your bible. The support for faith + good works is extensive, and I doubt that even you could explain it all away.

Hmm...since you have yet to prove it, and I DO read/study my Bible (at great length), I'd say that you're full of crap, as usual.

quote:Originally posted by Aseren:

Fixed for truth.

Thanks, doll. Where ya been ?

Jay, since you effectively admitted that you have no read the JOD, and you have repeatedly failed to address any of the points I have presented, I am going to call this one done.

Ranting irrationally isn't going to convince anyone that you are right.

I say again, Mormonism is not a denomination of Christianity. It's simply Mormonism.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Thanks, doll. Where ya been ?

My PC is broken (motherboard again), I'll return to IRC once it's fixed so we can catch up. (http://tinyurl.com/hq7yj)

How about the story of Abraham and Isaac for starters? God wanted to test Abraham's faith. How did he do it? Why, he did it by his actions!!! Shocking isn't it?

quote:James 2:14-18

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.

quote:1 Cor 15:58

Therefore, my beloved brothers, be firm, steadfast, always fully devoted to the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.

quote:Heb 6:10

For God is not unjust so as to overlook your work and the love you have demonstrated for his name by having served and continuing to serve the holy ones.

quote:James 2:20-22

Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.

quote:Mt 16:27

For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father's glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct.

quote:1 Cor 3:8

The one who plants and the one who waters are equal, and each will receive wages in proportion to his labor.

quote:Col 3:23-24

Whatever you do, do from the heart, as for the Lord and not for others, knowing that you will receive from the Lord the due payment of the inheritance.

quote:James 2:24

See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

quote:James 2:26

For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

I'm sure though that all these quotes have been taken out of context by the blasphemous and evil Catholics, correct?

quote:Please show me the scripture that says without works you will not go to Heaven, even if you have faith in Jesus Christ.

I was gonna repost my verses, but napoleon beat me to it.

quote:Hmm...since you have yet to prove it, and I DO read/study my Bible (at great length), I'd say that you're full of crap, as usual.

Odd how anyone who disagrees with you is, within time, declared to be "full of crap", isn't it?

I'd continue to argue with you digi, but you dismiss every point I bring up, and then you claim that I refuse to address any of your points. You are possibly the least open-minded person I've ever argued with.

HAHAHA this thread is ridiculous!

Silly American "Christians" thinking they've got a monopoly on Christianity.

Nothing funnier then a bunch of uppity heretics debating heresy.

Jay, either you lack English skills, or you can't comprehend what I have written, because you have YET to answer anything I have posted. You've gone off on plenty of tangents, and filled in the holes with plenty of irrelevance, but dealing with my actual points, you have not done.

Until you do, I won't have anything to say to you, as it's an obvious waste of time.

quote:Originally posted by FunkyZombie:

HAHAHA this thread is ridiculous!

Silly American "Christians" thinking they've got a monopoly on Christianity.

Nothing funnier then a bunch of uppity heretics debating heresy.

Yes, demanding theological accuracy amongst religions is DEFINITELY heretical.

I have definitively proven that Mormonism isn't a flavor of Christianity. It is it's own religion. There is nothing wrong with that, I just wanted it to be clear.

What's ridiculous is that it bothered you enough to incite a response.

quote:Originally posted by Aseren:

My PC is broken (motherboard again), I'll return to IRC once it's fixed so we can catch up. (http://tinyurl.com/hq7yj)

Ah, pity that.

I will await your return. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

It doesn't bother me, I find it infinitely amusing.

Congratulations you've "proven" Mormons are not really "Christian". As if that means anything.

quote:How about the story of Abraham and Isaac for starters? God wanted to test Abraham's faith. How did he do it? Why, he did it by his actions!!! Shocking isn't it?

A test of faith does not equate to "works." "Works" are what Christians do for others. Loving, giving, caring, that sort of thing. I wouldn't expect you to understand that, as a failed Catholic.

Here we go on the path to irrelevancy, once again.

quote:James 2:14-18 - What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.

You are mixing apples with oranges, Napoleon. As I ALREADY said earlier, once you accept Christ, the holy spirit dwells within you, and his presence in you will be evident, because you will be moved to perform works.

God's spirit is love, and if His spirit dwells within you, then you will love. The manifestation of love is works, which means you become a servant to mankind.

If you are NOT doing these works, you should seriously question whether the spirit resides in you or not.

This verse does not say, by ANY stretch of the imagination, that without works, your salvation is revoked. It says that faith is dead. That is entirely different.

quote:Perhaps no portion of Scripture is more misrepresented than James 2:14-26.

Roman Catholic theologians see it as the Achilles Heel of the Reformation. They insist that this text is proof that faith plus good works bring salvation. And, of course, if they are correct, then James is in conflict with the Apostle Paul who clearly taught that eternal salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone.

Martin Luther had great problems with this passage. He even questioned the canonicity of James for he felt that "it contradicted St. Paul and all other Scripture in giving righteousness to works;" hence he dubbed it "an epistle of straw and destitute of evangelic character."

Proponents of "Lordship Salvation" use it to "prove" that righteous behavior distinguishes true saving faith from counterfeit faith. Stated another way: the absence of good works is to them a sure indication of an unregenerate condition. In their view, the man in verse 14 who says he has faith, but has no good works, is lost: he is a person who may have an "intellectual" faith, but not a saving faith. His is a spurious or counterfeit faith. Within Bible-believing circles today, this interpretation is the most popular.

These understandings arise from the same incorrect assumption: that James is speaking of salvation from hell (eternal destiny) and justification in the forensic sense (as Paul did in Romans 3 & 4). In each and all of these misrepresentations, the text is ripped out of its context, given a concern that was not the intent of James, then applied to suit the commentator’s dogma.

In this monograph, I will attempt to show from the text and context:

1. that the faith spoken of in James 2:14 is always the faith of a Christian, not the initial faith of an unsaved sinner in response to the Gospel, nor simply an "intellectual" faith that does not save.

2. that in reference to this faith, James is not addressing the eternal destiny of his readers, rather their profitability and productivity in this life.

3. that James’ intention is practice: he is encouraging Believers to practice their faith via good works.

4. that Believers dare not minimize good works, nor make them irrelevant.

5. that James and Paul are in complete agreement that…

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>

<LI> justification (forensic/heavenly) before God is by faith alone in Christ alone, and,

<LI> justification (practical/earthly) before men is by faith-life-produced works.</UL>

Before we look at this passage, it is imperative that we understand that salvation from sin and its consequences is in its total scope a real deliverance from the same. That is, salvation is deliverance from 1) the penalty of sin (spiritual death or eternal separation from God), 2) deliverance from the power of sin in the present, and 3) deliverance from the presence of sin in the future.

These three aspects of deliverance are three phases of salvation which are doctrinally developed in the New Testament as 1) Justification, 2) Sanctification, and 3) Glorification. The reader of scripture must always determine to which phase a salvation passage refers.

Let us give careful consideration of the text of James 2:14-26 and its context.

James 2:14 - What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works ? Can faith save him ?

In this verse, James raises two questions about faith in relation to works:

Question #1: My brethren, what does it profit if a man says he has faith but he has no works ?

Observation:

1. James’ concern is profit manward from a faith that is not productive.

2. The question & concern is directed to "my Brethren" (i.e., Believers), as is the entire book.

Christians are clearly his focus, as in the following passages.

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>

<LI> 1:2 "My brethren," (brothers & sisters in Christ) – in Phase #1 or #2 of salvation?

<LI> 1:3 "the trying of your faith worketh patience" –Phase #1 or #2?

<LI> 1:12 James gives them encouragement under testing – Phase #1 or #2?

<LI> 1:18 "Of His own will, He (God) begat us (James and his readers) by the Word of truth" –Phase #1 or #2?

<LI> 1:21 Command: "Receive the implanted word which is able to save/deliver your souls" – Phase #1 or #2?

<LI> 1:22 Command: "Be doers of the word & not just listeners" – Phase #1 or #2?

<LI> 2:1 Command: "My Brethren, hold not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ… with respect (or favoritism) toward persons" – Phase #1 or #2?</UL>

POINT: As with the commands and exhortations of James up to this point, the questions that he poses in 2:14 are to stimulate thought by believers in phase #2 about the relationship between faith and works as they impact other believers; about being word-doers and not just listeners. These questions have nothing to do with unbelievers.

Question #2: "Can faith SAVE him (A BELIEVER)?": that is, "The faith that is without works is continually not able to save/deliver him, is it?"

Anticipated answer: "No."

THE INTERPRETIVE ISSUE: "deliver" or "save" him from what?

IS HELL/ETERNITY IN VIEW? YES/NO

OR IS DELIVERANCE FROM SINS DEGRADATION IN PHASE #2 IN VIEW?

OBVIOUSLY THE LATTER: Precisely as in 1:21 where believers are encouraged to "receive the engrafted or implanted word which is able to save or deliver your souls!" James indicates that there is a reciprocity between Word-produced-works, between being doers of the Word and between faith-life-produced works, and deliverance of the soul from sin’s hang-ups. It is this deliverance (in Phase #2) that he has in mind in 2:14.

2:15, 16 James Illustrates the Barrenness of A Believer’s Faith Without Works

James 2:15-16 - If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

Again, James addresses believers and their good works or lack thereof. He raises the issue of brothers and sisters in Christ who have unmet need for the vital essentials of life: in no way could the "one of you" who ignores their obvious need be an unbeliever!

James has the faith of Christians in view in this entire paragraph, not faith in the Gospel that makes one a Christian. He asks, "WHAT PROFIT or BENEFIT IS YOUR FAITH IN THIS SCENARIO?"

2:17 James’ First Conclusion

James 2:17 - Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone (being by itself [NASV])...

His First Conclusion: "So, indeed, this faith if not having works (production of Divine good in life) is dead;" that is, separated from profit or benefit manward, separated from the Divine intent. It stands alone, which is not God’s intent for faith.

"Dead" here is used in its normal scriptural sense, that of separation, not annihilation or lack of existence. Biblically, spiritual death is separation from God, not annihilation. Physical death is separation of the soul-spirit from the physical body, not annihilation nor non-existence. The second death is spiritual death perpetuated into eternity, not annihilation nor the end of existence. James is not saying faith does not exist: it does exist, but it is separated from God’s intent, hence dead or profitless to mankind.

"Faith" from God’s perspective is not to "be alone." James is affirming that there is a directive purpose of God in saving men by grace through faith – that good works might result.

HE IS IN TOTAL AGREEMENT WITH THE APOSTLE PAUL WHO STATES:

Ephesians 2:8-10 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Did you notice: Believers are created by God in Christ Jesus unto good works. The new birth and its result, the new creation, is not created by good works (the Roman Catholic position), but unto good works. By design, this is one of the directive goals of God for personal faith in Christ. Paul reaffirms the principle in Titus 3:5-8:

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

**NOTICE THAT IT DOES NOT SAY THAT IT IS A REQUISITE FOR ENTRANCE INTO HEAVEN ?**

Summary

James’ concern in this paragraph is highlighted in the word "profit." "What profit," he asks (in v. 14), "is faith without works?" This profit is manward (to "brothers" & "sisters") as he illustrates in verses 15 & 16 ending with the question (paraphrased): "What does this non-works-response profit the needy Brother or Sister?" James concludes (v. 17): "So also, the faith (without works as I stated in v.14) is dead, being alone." That is, this Christian man’s faith is separated from God’s intent: benefit or profit manward. Nor can this faith have the ameliorative benefits for its possessor that God designed in faith-produced-good-works: it cannot save/deliver him in Phase #2 Christianity (v.14). It is dead, separated from the Divine intent (same use of the word "save" in 1:21). Source (http://www.duluthbible.org/g_f_j/James2_Pt1.htm)

I am going to break these up for the sake of brevity.

quote:Originally posted by FunkyZombie:

It doesn't bother me, I find it infinitely amusing.

Congratulations you've "proven" Mormons are not really "Christian". As if that means anything.

It is very important to make a clear distinction between Christianity, and other religions.

Case in point, Christians have been marred by the transgressions of the Catholic Church. It is an unfair case of "guilt by association."

Mormonism should be recognized for what it is: it's own, distinct religion, separate from Christianity.

1 Cor 15:58 - Therefore, my beloved brothers, be firm, steadfast, always fully devoted to the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.

This verse doesn't contradict what I have said at all. It's simply an instruction to do God's work. I never said we shouldn't. It doesn't refute my statement that works do not gain your salvation, and you do not LOSE your salvation if you don't perform works.

This is effectively irrelevant.

Heb 6:10 - For God is not unjust so as to overlook your work and the love you have demonstrated for his name by having served and continuing to serve the holy ones.

Read my response above. This verse does not refute what I have said.

Works do not save. Faith by grace through the blood of Christ ALONE saves.

To say otherwise is to say you have some sort of ability to earn your salvation, which would negate the purpose of Christ's death on the cross.

This is a very fundamental Christian tenet, found throughout the Gospels. The fact that you don't know that is simply sad.

James 2:20-22 - Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.

Faith was completed by the works, not contingent upon them, in regards to salvation.

Going back to James 14, here it is from the Jewish translation, which I have found to be the best, in comparison to the rest, in all cases...

James 2:14-17 - What good is it, my brothers, if someone claims to have faith, but has no actions to prove it ? Is such "faith" able to save him ? 15 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food, 16 and someone says to him "Shalom ! Keep warm, and eat hearty !" without giving him what he needs, what good does it do ? 17 Thus, faith by itself, without actions, is dead.

Works are a natural manifestation of the Holy Spirit dwelling in the believer. The Holy Spirit is dwelling in the believer because they have faith in Jesus Christ, savior of the world. The Holy Spirit does not cease to dwell in the believer if they do not perform works.

You have yet to produce a scripture that says that this is the case.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 05-21-2006).]

Just out of curiosity define "Christian" for me.

A Christian is someone who believes in Jesus Christ as their personal savior. They also believe that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are one entity.

They believe that the Bible is the perfect word of God, and that it is acceptable for reproof.

They take the scripture literally, cover to cover, and add none of their own personal opinion or ritual.

Anyone that deviates from the above participates in religion, which is a man-made vehicle. Faith is God-made, and Christianity is nothing more than faith in God.

Matthew 16:27 - For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then He shall reward every man according to his works.

Yes, we will be judged according to our works. This is where the "crowns" system comes in to place.

Those who are saved receive crowns for their good works, but that should never be one's motivation for doing them.

For those that are not saved, they are judged for their works as well, which are sinful.

Matthew 25:31-34 - "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, (Joel 3:2) and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world."

Matthew 16:27 still doesn't say "If you don't do works, you won't get into heaven." Sorry.

I'm tired. I will finish the rest later.

So is your idea of refutation basically just saying, "nope, that doesn't apply to this quote"?

Honest question.

Okay, Mormons are different, big whoop. Now why don't you be good little Christians and go out and kill Jews and Niggers instead of carrying out an argument of semantics.

quote:How do you explain the Catholic position with regard to good works when St. Paul teaches that a man is justified by faith: "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith, independently of the works of the law." (Rom. 3:28).

Outside the Catholic Church the average person has an entirely erroneous idea of the Catholic Church's position on the question of good works. No Catholic has ever taught that a person can be SAVED by good works. Certainly he can be JUSTIFIED by faith, but not by faith alone.



"We are justified by a faith that worketh by charity. Gal. 5:6

We believe that the human race was redeemed by the death of Christ on the cross, but that more than the acceptance of this is necessary. It is necessary for each individual to personalize this atonement of our Lord by his own co-operation, i.e., by faith, baptism, the keeping of the commandments and observing all things that Christ has taught.

Furthermore, good works are necessary in order to help a person persevere in the state of grace or friendship with God. He has told us this when He said that he who gives a glass of water in His name, gives it to Him; that we must love our neighbors as we love ourselves; that we must do good to those who hate us and persecute us; that we must feed the hungry and clothe the naked; and perform all the other corporal and spiritual works of mercy.

For God to ignore these good works, and not attach merit to them, would be unjust. He Himself says this through St. Paul.



"For God is not unjust that He should forget your works." Hebrews 6:10

Those who are doubtful about the place of good works in the plan of Redemption should read the Epistle of St. James, Chanter 2:

(14) "What will it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but does not have works? Can the faith save him?"

(17) "So faith too, unless it has works, is dead in itself."

(18) "But someone will say, 'Thou hast faith, and I have works. Show me thy faith without works, and I, from my works, will show thee my faith'."

(20) "But dost thou want to know, O senseless man, that faith without works is useless?"

(24) "You see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

(26) "For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith also without works is dead."

Likewise, in I Corinthians 13:2

"And if I have prophecy and know all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have faith, so as to remove mountains, yet do not have charity, I am nothing."

Therefore, although a man is not SAVED by works, yet works are pleasing in the sight of God, and HAVE VALUE since they are done for Him. They thus help the individual to preserve in the state of grace or friendship with God.

http://mafg.home.isp-direct.com/que4014.htm

It couldn't be any clearer DS that faith alone just won't cut it.

I hope you have fun burning in hell. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:(a) Faith and no works may be described as the Lutheran view. "Esto peccator, pecca fortiter sed fortius fide" was the heresiarch's axiom, and the Diet of Worms, In 1527, condemned the doctrine that good works are necessary for salvation.

(b) Works and no faith may be described as the modern view, for the modern world strives to make the worship of humanity take the place of the worship of the Deity (Do we believe? as issued by the Rationalist Press, 1904, ch. x: "Creed and Conduct" and ch. xv: "Rationalism and Morality". Cf. also Christianity and Rationalism on Trial, published by the same press, 1904).

(c) Faith shown by works has ever been the doctrine of the Catholic Church and is explicitly taught by St. James, ii, 17: "Faith, if it have not works, is dead." The Council of Trent (Sess. VI, canons xix, xx, xxiv, and xxvi) condemned the various aspects of the Lutheran doctrine, and from what has been said above on the necessity of charity for "living" faith, it will be evident that faith does not exclude, but demands, good works, for charity or love of God is not real unless it induces us to keep the Commandments; "He that keepeth his word, in him in very deed the charity of God is perfected" (1 John 2:5). St. Augustine sums up the whole question by saying "Laudo fructum boni operis, sed in fide agnosco radicem" -- i. e. "I praise the fruit of good works, but their root I discern in faith" (Enarr. in Ps. xxxi, P.L., IV, 259).

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm

The proof is overwhelming, but you'll just continue to ignore it.

It says plain as day in your precious bible that "faith, without good works, is dead".

How much more clearer could you want God the almighty to spell it out for you?

So... If you are a good person ,in other words you do good works. Yet you do not have faith in god.... You go to hell?

Does being a good person not count? Can I be saved without faith?

Besides I can't see how you can argue any point her (digi) If faith leads to good works then works are part of salvation? Someone with faith Will perform good works ,yes? So works are a part of salvation ,without good works you do not have faith , and so are not saved?

So:

A) Faith leads to good works

B) People with true faith will perform good works.

C) Faith and Good works are a part of salvation.

I feel that is a suitable conclusion?

quote:I wouldn't expect you to understand that, as a failed Catholic.

That was a little uneccesary wasn't it? Hardly very nice accpeting huimble christian behaviour is it? Isn't christianity mostly against being unpleasant to people? That strikes me as being particularly unpleasant, and personal to boot.

maybe you should spend less time reading the bible and more time working on being a nice person? You can't convert people who you piss off ... a basic tenet of conversion really.

i wish i could read all of this right now, but i can't, i must sleep, besides i already know a lot about mormons... crazy fuckers

if anybody wants to learn more about mormons and how they are connected to aliens you should visit my brother's website www.wgastronomy.com (http://www.wgastronomy.com) he has some very valuable insights

1. Dividing God the One into parts numbered is wrong. The Number is One Infinite. Not 3, Not 6, Not 9. Hindus also divide the singular into many parts, a triune at the top, but claim they are all incarnations or aspects of the One God.

2.Stating Blaspemy: "Jesus is the Begotten Son of God who died for our sins" is not going to save you from hell fire alone, but you will need to do good and believe in the One God. Someone's death does not forgive YOUR sins. Asking the One God for forgiveness, believing and worshipping the One God, and doing good deeds is the only way to Paradise. Start being a nice and good person, send forth positivity and maybe it will shine back on you.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

I have always said that TRUE Christianity is nothing like the world perceives it (mostly Christianity is defined by the mistakes and atrocities committed by the Catholic Church).

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

See ? Point proven. They have to subscribe to the Salvation-By-Faith theology of Christianity in order to be "Christian."

If "TRUE Christianity is nothing like the world perceives it" ...and...you are a part of the world...how certain are you that you perceive it correctly?

Why "do they have to subscribe to the Salvation-By-Faith theology of Christianity in order to be "Christian." I would call that being a "salvationist".

I just cannot understand these things. I must not perceive them very well. But...it seems to me that they are things "of the world".

*obviously puzzled* http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif)

Digi, The Church Of LDS are as much a christian denomination as the church you attend (which i assume is an evangelical 'bible based' free congregation).

Your definition of what constitutes a christian is at odds with scripture (which is very clear on this point).

Acceptance of the doctrine of salvation by faith (btw strictly speaking that should be 'salvation by faith alone, which would tend to exclude catholics) is not a prerequisite to being 'christian'.

To be a christian or rather 'child of god' you have only to believe and profess that Jesus was the 'christ', the Messiah. The bible clearly says this is the only requirement.

I'll spare everyone the reams of bible verses but if anyone is interested they should read through 1.John 4.



[This message has been edited by jackketch (edited 08-11-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:

Digi, The Church Of LDS are as much a christian denomination as the church you attend (which i assume is an evangelical 'bible based' free congregation).

Your definition of what constitutes a christian is at odds with scripture (which is very clear on this point).

Acceptance of the doctrine of salvation by faith (btw strictly speaking that should be 'salvation by faith alone, which would tend to exclude catholics) is not a prerequisite to being 'christian'.

To be a christian or rather 'child of god' you have only to believe and profess that Jesus was the 'christ', the Messiah. The bible clearly says this is the only requirement.

I'll spare everyone the reams of bible verses but if anyone is interested they should read through 1.John 4.



If that's the case then I'm a Christian too.



[This message has been edited by Abrahim (edited 08-11-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

If that's the case then I'm a Christian too.





More than likely.

Digi, unusually, is confusing two seperate issues.

Put OVER simply she is mixing up being 'a christian' and being a 'good christian'. ('good' by the doctrines she holds to be true).

I once spent some time studying with an iman..a muslim spritual leader, who informed me to my great surprise that i am infact a moslem!

When i pointed out that i 1.actively support Israel and 2. drink alcohol, he replied "I didn't say you were a good muslim!"



[This message has been edited by jackketch (edited 08-11-2006).]

Ok, Jack. We can have a crack at this, but not now...it's 5 a.m. and I have stayed up WAY too late...again. http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

Until the morrow !

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

1. Dividing God the One into parts numbered is wrong. The Number is One Infinite. Not 3, Not 6, Not 9. Hindus also divide the singular into many parts, a triune at the top, but claim they are all incarnations or aspects of the One God.

2.Stating Blaspemy: "Jesus is the Begotten Son of God who died for our sins" is not going to save you from hell fire alone, but you will need to do good and believe in the One God. Someone's death does not forgive YOUR sins. Asking the One God for forgiveness, believing and worshipping the One God, and doing good deeds is the only way to Paradise. Start being a nice and good person, send forth positivity and maybe it will shine back on you.

I am not a Muslim. I don't believe in your religion. I believe in Christianity, so your words are wasted on me.

Again, stop proselytizing. I don't need to be saved from Christianity, and am not looking to be.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Ok, Jack. We can have a crack at this, but not now...it's 5 a.m. and I have stayed up WAY too late...again. http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

Until the morrow !

Okies , i wish you sweet dreams and soft lovings http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:

More than likely.

Digi, unusually, is confusing two seperate issues.

Put OVER simply she is mixing up being 'a christian' and being a 'good christian'. ('good' by the doctrines she holds to be true).

I once spent some time studying with an iman..a muslim spritual leader, who informed me to my great surprise that i am infact a moslem!

When i pointed out that i 1.actively support Israel and 2. drink alcohol, he replied "I didn't say you were a good muslim!"



The Qur'an outlines what it is to be a Muslim, in other words, following the Qur'an.

To Jar and Digi:

You're both right!

How?

Mormonism is indeed a sect based off Christianity as compared to a sect based off Judaism, Islam, or Buddhism. Mormons besides their own books also read the Old and New Testament I believe. So yes, Mormonism is its own religion, unique, but it is based off of Christianity and includes Christian beliefs as well as subscribing to the Old Testament and New Testament.

Just how the Bahai faith is based off of Islam loosely, it can be considered an Islamic sect, but it is its own religion with its own book and they don't follow the Qur'an.

So Mormonism is to Christianity as Bahai Faith is to Islam. A sect that has wandered in their own direction but still having ties to Christianity as it was originally based off of Christianity loosely.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

The Qur'an outlines what it is to be a Muslim, in other words, following the Qur'an.



Nope, the Qur'an tells you how to be a 'good muslim'.

However to become a muslim all that is necessary is to recite/proclaim publically the

Shahada



"I bear witness that there is none worthy of worship but Allah, and I bear witness that Mohammad is the Messenger of Allah"

(yes i know you know this , i am just putting it in for the benefit of our poorly informed memebers.)

[This message has been edited by jackketch (edited 08-11-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:



Nope, the Qur'an tells you how to be a 'good muslim'.

However to become a muslim all that is necessary is to recite/proclaim publically the

Shahada



"I bear witness that there is none worthy of worship but Allah, and I bear witness that Mohammad is the Messenger of Allah"

(yes i know you know this , i am just putting it in for the benefit of our poorly informed memebers.)



The Qur'an explains that ""I bear witness that there is none worthy of worship but Allah, and I bear witness that Mohammad is the Messenger of Allah"" means absolutely nothing, furthermore that those who do not follow what is outlined in the Qur'an but claim to be Muslims are not bad Muslims, but Hypocrites who will burn in hell.

Stating that one bears witness that there is none worthy of worship but God and bearing witness that Mohammed is the Messenger of God does not make a person a good Muslim, not even a Muslim, the Qur'an explains that being a Muslim is a lifelong process there is no easy ticket or statement that automatically makes a person a Muslim. The Qur'an explains that being a Muslim is a lifelong process of being steadfast on the straight path.

The Qur'an (Lecture/Recitation), the book of Islam (Submission), never states that to be a Muslim one must simply make the above statement and profess faith, but rather it explains over and over that one must do as it says and live and continually live as it says in order to be a Muslim and maintain oneself on the straight path.

So yes, the Imam might have said what he said but his beliefs were not based off of what is taught in the Qur'an which is the book of Islam and in my opinion the authority on the religion which it teaches.

So as long as you persist in disobeying the revelations of the Qur'an, transgressing against its prescriptions and boundaries, and doing wrong, you, no matter what you profess, are not a Muslim. If you claim to be a Muslim then you are a hypocrite, otherwise a Kawffir (Disbeliever). That's how it works according to the Qur'an.

Either you follow the Qur'an, the whole of the Qur'an and continue to follow it to the day you die or you profess belief but do not follow the Qur'an or you profess disbelief and you do not follow the Qur'an.

The first is being a Muslim as Defined by the Qur'an, the Second is being a Hypocrite, the Third is being a Kawffir. It is implied perhaps in the Qur'an that it is better to be a full blown disbeliever than a Hypocrite as the Hypocrites punishment is worse but in other words: If you don't follow the Qur'an you don't believe in the Qur'an thus you should not make a claim to be a believer.

I just wanted to clearify the Qur'anic perspective, and what the Imam told you is not a rare thing but in fact many Imam's and Islamic teachers might say that to people but if they focused on what the Qur'an says then they would understand what it is to be a Muslim.

There is no such thing as a Bad Muslim, Either you're a Good Muslim (Following the Qur'an) or you're not a Muslim at all. The Qur'an clearly talks about the "luke warms" and their final destination as hypocrites in hell.

The Qur'an states that professing belief means nothing but it is through your actions and good deeds that you gain reward and the belief in your heart is what counts towards you. The Qur'an leaves no room for bad muslims.

The Qur'an even has revelations about people who profess belief and bear witness and swear the biggest oaths but do not follow the Qur'an or have belief in their hearts and how they are not Muslims.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

The Qur'an explains that ""I bear witness that there is none worthy of worship but Allah, and I bear witness that Mohammad is the Messenger of Allah"" means absolutely nothing, furthermore that those who do not follow what is outlined in the Qur'an but claim to be Muslims are not bad Muslims, but Hypocrites who will burn in hell.

Stating that one bears witness that there is none worthy of worship but God and bearing witness that Mohammed is the Messenger of God does not make a person a good Muslim, not even a Muslim, the Qur'an explains that being a Muslim is a lifelong process there is no easy ticket or statement that automatically makes a person a Muslim. The Qur'an explains that being a Muslim is a lifelong process of being steadfast on the straight path.

The Qur'an (Lecture/Recitation), the book of Islam (Submission), never states that to be a Muslim one must simply make the above statement and profess faith, but rather it explains over and over that one must do as it says and live and continually live as it says in order to be a Muslim and maintain oneself on the straight path.

So yes, the Imam might have said what he said but his beliefs were not based off of what is taught in the Qur'an which is the book of Islam and in my opinion the authority on the religion which it teaches.

So as long as you persist in disobeying the revelations of the Qur'an, transgressing against its prescriptions and boundaries, and doing wrong, you, no matter what you profess, are not a Muslim. If you claim to be a Muslim then you are a hypocrite, otherwise a Kawffir (Disbeliever). That's how it works according to the Qur'an.

Either you follow the Qur'an, the whole of the Qur'an and continue to follow it to the day you die or you profess belief but do not follow the Qur'an or you profess disbelief and you do not follow the Qur'an.

The first is being a Muslim as Defined by the Qur'an, the Second is being a Hypocrite, the Third is being a Kawffir. It is implied perhaps in the Qur'an that it is better to be a full blown disbeliever than a Hypocrite as the Hypocrites punishment is worse but in other words: If you don't follow the Qur'an you don't believe in the Qur'an thus you should not make a claim to be a believer.

I just wanted to clearify the Qur'anic perspective, and what the Imam told you is not a rare thing but in fact many Imam's and Islamic teachers might say that to people but if they focused on what the Qur'an says then they would understand what it is to be a Muslim.

There is no such thing as a Bad Muslim, Either you're a Good Muslim (Following the Qur'an) or you're not a Muslim at all. The Qur'an clearly talks about the "luke warms" and their final destination as hypocrites in hell.

The Qur'an states that professing belief means nothing but it is through your actions and good deeds that you gain reward and the belief in your heart is what counts towards you. The Qur'an leaves no room for bad muslims.

The Qur'an even has revelations about people who profess belief and bear witness and swear the biggest oaths but do not follow the Qur'an or have belief in their hearts and how they are not Muslims.



LOL

Sorry i shouldn't laugh but if you take your post and subsitute Qur'an for 'the bible' and muslim for 'christian' etc etc then you sound exactly like Digi!! (that btw is neither a compliment or insult, just an observation...and maybe some food for thought.

Too often i have heard christians, jews and muslims all describe other denominations of their own respective faiths as somehow not true believers. Sunni v.Shiite, baptist v.Joho, liberal v. orthodox.

All are convinced that they and only they are knee deep in the life giving waters of jordan or paradise.



[This message has been edited by jackketch (edited 08-11-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:



LOL

Sorry i shouldn't laugh but if you take your post and subsitute Qur'an for 'the bible' and muslim for 'christian' etc etc then you sound exactly like Digi!! (that btw is neither a compliment or insult, just an observation...and maybe some food for thought.

Too often i have heard christians, jews and muslims all describe other denominations of their own respective faiths as somehow not true believers. Sunni v.Shiite, baptist v.Joho, liberal v. orthodox.

All are convinced that they and only they are knee deep in the life giving waters of jordan or paradise.



I don't mind you laughing, it's funny, and its fun to be self righteous! To preach to the masses in a certain tone. But I don't agree with sects neither does the Qur'an, the Qur'an explains that there is only One religion, Islam, and then describes how to do that religion and be a member. Tells people to leave sects alone, that they will be dealt with. The Sunni and Shi'a both claim to believe in the Qur'an, their disagreement is in the Hadiths of their own manufactor.

I wanted to explain that the Qur'an is the authority on what it is to be a Muslim and how it states that simply saying you're a believer and doing the Shahadah means nothing but one must live as a muslim and that is described in the Qur'an.

So either you are a muslim or you aren't.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

I don't mind you laughing, it's funny, and its fun to be self righteous! To preach to the masses in a certain tone. But I don't agree with sects neither does the Qur'an, the Qur'an explains that there is only One religion, Islam, and then describes how to do that religion and be a member. Tells people to leave sects alone, that they will be dealt with. The Sunni and Shi'a both claim to believe in the Qur'an, their disagreement is in the Hadiths of their own manufactor.

I wanted to explain that the Qur'an is the authority on what it is to be a Muslim and how it states that simply saying you're a believer and doing the Shahadah means nothing but one must live as a muslim and that is described in the Qur'an.

So either you are a muslim or you aren't.

I see what you're saying, and yes i am aware what the Qur'an teaches in regard to being/remaining a muslim.

But, like Digi, you are going too far and too fast.

All faiths agree that the simple 'confession' of a faith is not enough..be it 'jesus was the messiah, who came in the flesh' or the 'shahadah' or the 'Schema Israel'.And that it is only our deeds and faith afterwards that give the words their meaning and our claim to be a whatever validity.

That however was not really the point i am trying to make here.

The Church Of LDS professes as their central core doctrine that Jesus is the messiah, therefore they are christian. The same applies to any of the muslim sects. If they preach the shahadah as their central doctrine, no matter what else they might teach, then they are correctly to be labeled as 'muslim'.

A final example (more for Digi than you). The first christians were the apostles/disciples of jesus. They were jews.

They had none or almost none of the doctrines that modern christians consider sacred. They had no NT. They were and they thought of themselves as jews.

The reason why they were the first 'christians' is because they proclaimed and professed jesus as the messiah.





[This message has been edited by jackketch (edited 08-11-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:

I see what you're saying, and yes i am aware what the Qur'an teaches in regard to being/remaining a muslim.

But, like Digi, you are going too far and too fast.

All faiths agree that the simple 'confession' of a faith is not enough..be it 'jesus was the messiah, who came in the flesh' or the 'shahadah' or the 'Schema Israel'.And that it is only our deeds and faith afterwards that give the words their meaning and our claim to be a whatever validity.

That however was not really the point i am trying to make here.

The Church Of LDS professes as their central core doctrine that Jesus is the messiah, therefore they are christian. The same applies to any of the muslim sects. If they preach the shahadah as their central doctrine, no matter what else they might teach, then they are correctly to be labeled as 'muslim'.

A final example (more for Digi than you). The first christians were the apostles/disciples of jesus. They were jews.

They had none or almost none of the doctrines that modern christians consider sacred. They had no NT. They were and they thought of themselves as jews.

The reason why they were the first 'christians' is because they proclaimed and professed jesus as the messiah.





But where in the Qur'an does it say the Shahadah is the central doctrine which defines a person as a Muslim?

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

But where in the Qur'an does it say the Shahadah is the central doctrine which defines a person as a Muslim?



I don't think it does (although as i am not a Qur'an expert i may be wrong on that) nor i do think i ever said it did?

The fact you even ask the question says a lot about your own faith (i'm assuming you're some sort of muslim, forgive me if i am wrong).

DS, You say that the Bible is the perfect word of God, but it's got countless contradictions, and was written by man, who is infinitely fallable. Therefore the bible can't possibly be perfect scripture.

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:



I don't think it does (although as i am not a Qur'an expert i may be wrong on that) nor i do think i ever said it did?

The fact you even ask the question says a lot about your own faith (i'm assuming you're some sort of muslim, forgive me if i am wrong).



I agree that Mormonism is a divergent Christian Based sect that has its own book but is Christian because of basic fundamentals that come from Christianity such as Jesus as the Messiah and Son of God which are uniquely Christian ideas.

The Qur'an on the other hand clearifies despite popular belief that there is no such thing as "converting" by simply making a singular statement, there is no such thing as a non practicing muslim either.

In the case of Christianity many modern Christians agree that all it takes is the belief that Jesus was the Son of God who died to forgive the sins of all mankind and that being the basic and most important belief that defines one as a Christian.

In the case of Islam it is not so simple, though Muslims have made the Shahadah a statement of conversion there is in fact no such thing nor is it stated in the Qur'an that any statement including that one makes one a Muslim.

The Qur'an explains to be a Muslim one must:

1. Follow the Qur'an

and more specifically

2.Believe in All the Books (Ancient Taurat, Injeel, Zabur, Scrolls of Ibrahim, Qur'an) All the Prophets (making no distinction between them), Angels, The Day of Judgement/Ressurection.

3. Worship (being one who bows down)

4. Do good (including charity if you are able)

5. Avoid what it says to avoid including pork, alcohol, intoxicants fornication, adultry, and all the other sins it mentions, and if one falters then to ask for forgiveness from God and submit and not repeat the bad.

So that's all it takes to be a Muslim.

Many, many people can say that they believe There is no God but God and Muhammed is God's Prophet but no where in the Qur'an does it say making that statement makes a person a muslim.

Muslim by definition means One who Submits (Bows Down to God), and Islam means Submission (to God).

So possibly the biggest determining factor besides following the Qur'an is praying and bowing down in worship but the Qur'an is pretty clear about following all the revelations and not just choosing to follow some and not others.

Recap:

Most Modern Christians believe in order to be a Christian and be forgiven by God one must simply believe in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, the Son of God who died for their sins.

Within Modern Islamic Society there is a large portion of people who call themselves Muslims but do not follow the Qur'an and do not Pray, they believe being a Muslim is an Ethnicity like how some Jews think being a Jew is an Ethnicity not a Religion. I believe it is a much bigger determining factor to perform Worship but the only way to be qualified as a Muslim is to follow the revelation.

A Muslim must believe in all the prophets, making no distinctions, all the books including the Qur'an, the angels, the day of ressurection and judgement, must pray, give charity if they can, and live a life of avoiding self harm, harm towards others, and sin.

Alcohol consumption doesn't make a person a bad Muslim but automatically disqualifies them as a Muslim as the Qur'an prohibits alcohol explicitly. So a person can even pray but if they disobey the Qur'an on the other hand their acts may be in vain as they must not believe.

There is no such thing as a Muslim who drinks, doesn't pray, in open disobedience to the Qur'an. They are, no matter what they say, qualified as Disbelievers. It doesn't matter if they say they believe in God and Muhammed as they obviously don't, showing it through their disobedience to the revelations in the Qur'an.

Islam may be the strictist most religious religion available currently, it has no easy ticket to heaven as many modern Christians believe they have through Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior the son of God, or as some Jews may think they have as a Chosen People.

In Islam one must work and spend their life performing good works in order to achieve paradise, praying every day they can at the 5 times of the day, giving charity, being good, and doing right.

An Individual has total responsibility for their own good and their own bad and must face it all on the day of Judgement, no man or being can interfere with their judgement or the final ruling, not Jesus, not Muhammed, not anyone.

In Islam only the individual can act as their own savior by doing good and avoiding evil, asking God for forgiveness.

So do you want to be a Muslim, Jack? It might seem tough but according to the Qur'an it is the only way to achieve a reward in the afterlife.

Christianity: Christ is the Savior, believe in him and enter heaven.

Judaism: You are a chosen people but follow the revelation of God.

Hinduism: Do good and you may be rewarded in this life and your next incarnation.

Buddhism: Follow the eightfold path to ascend beyond suffering and transcend into Nirvana (Non Being). If you do not suceed at first you will be reincarnated for another try.

Islam: You have one life, spend it doing good and worshipping God, following the Qur'an to achieve paradise and avoid eternal punishment in the fire.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:



So do you want to be a Muslim, Jack? It might seem tough but according to the Qur'an it is the only way to achieve a reward in the afterlife.

NO!

Although there is much in Islam i admire and i have found the study of the Qur'an useful for insights into the origins of christianity i have no interest whatsoever in converting.

And btw i don't believe in a 'after life' or paradise or heaven as such , mainly because i can't find any supporting evidence in the bible (i believe in the bodily resurrection..ie like it says in Job 'thou wilt remember the work of thine hands')

And anyway i'm an alcoholic :P

[This message has been edited by jackketch (edited 08-14-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:

NO!

Although there is much in Islam i admire and i have found the study of the Qur'an useful for insights into the origins of christianity i have no interest whatsoever in converting.

And btw i don't believe in a 'after life' or paradise or heaven as such , mainly because i can't find any supporting evidence in the bible (i believe in the bodily resurrection..ie like it says in Job 'thou wilt remember the work of thine hands')

And anyway i'm an alcoholic :P



The "After Life" isn't some magical place where souls go but rather the literal place people go after the Bodilly Ressurection, or do you believe after judging them God kills them again? The Good people Inherit the Earth (a more spacious and beautiful peaceful Earth) and the bad people are thrown into hell which is also a literal place of punishment. Hell is not an idea unique but has existed for a long time even as far as in China and Mongolia pre Islam.

Secondly, being an alcoholic shouldn't really be affording you any benefit and you, for the sake of your own health, should try to figure out some way in that you may stop. Give your liver a chance to rejuvinate. Have some respect for your body. Do you think that on the Ressurection your body won't testify as to how you treated it?

The Day of Ressurection and Judgement is the Day of Sorting, the righteous inherit the Earth, the evil inherit the fire which is also a literal place located somewhere on or in this new Earth (which is this Earth but after Judgement Day)

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

The "After Life" isn't some magical place where souls go but rather the literal place people go after the Bodilly Ressurection, or do you believe after judging them God kills them again? The Good people Inherit the Earth (a more spacious and beautiful peaceful Earth) and the bad people are thrown into hell which is also a literal place of punishment. Hell is not an idea unique but has existed for a long time even as far as in China and Mongolia pre Islam.

Secondly, being an alcoholic shouldn't really be affording you any benefit and you, for the sake of your own health, should try to figure out some way in that you may stop. Give your liver a chance to rejuvinate. Have some respect for your body. Do you think that on the Ressurection your body won't testify as to how you treated it?

The Day of Ressurection and Judgement is the Day of Sorting, the righteous inherit the Earth, the evil inherit the fire which is also a literal place located somewhere on or in this new Earth (which is this Earth but after Judgement Day)



I think we have pretty much hi-jacked this thread http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

And no i don't believe in a 'final judgement' , again because i find no biblical evidence.

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:



I think we have pretty much hi-jacked this thread http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

And no i don't believe in a 'final judgement' , again because i find no biblical evidence.

Alright, if you ever want to read the Qur'an in 3 translations, you might enjoy it: http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/

I'm going to click randomly and see what comes for you!

Keep in mind the following is from totally randomly clicking with my eyes closed and with my mind intent on finding what it should say for you. Also I need to warn you before you read this, do not take it lightly, I know you may not believe in this but I am quite amazed at how relevant the random revelation I posted is, after I posted it I came back to warn you not to take it lightly or as a joke but to read it carefully with your mind and your heart, after this point if you turn away then that is it, a lock, so please carefully read the following revelation which I believe is extremely relevant and possibly the final chance, communication you have in this matter, heed it or turn way, the latter is a loss uncomparable:

In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful.

070.001

A questioner asked about a Penalty to befall-

070.002

The unbelievers-- there is none to avert it--

070.003

From Allah, the Lord of the ways of Ascent.

070.004

The angels and the spirit ascend unto him in a Day the measure whereof is fifty thousand years:

070.005

Therefore endure with a goodly patience.

070.006

Surely they think it to be far off,

070.007

But We see it near.

070.008

The Day that the sky will be like molten brass,

070.009

And the mountains will be like wool,

070.010

And no friend will ask after a friend,

070.011

Though they will be given sight of them. The guilty man will long to be able to ransom himself from the punishment of that day at the price of his children

070.012

And his spouse and his brother

070.013

His kindred who sheltered him,

070.014

And all, all that is on earth,- so it could deliver him:

070.015

By no means! for it would be the Fire of Hell!-

070.016

Eager to roast;

070.017

It calleth him who turned and fled

070.018

And hoarded and withheld it.

070.019

Truly man was created very impatient;-

070.020

Fretful when evil touches him;

070.021

And, when good befalleth him, grudging;

070.022

Save worshippers.

070.023

Those who remain steadfast to their prayer;

070.024

And those in whose wealth is a recognised right.

070.025

For the beggar and the destitute;

070.026

And those who hold to the truth of the Day of Judgment;

070.027

And those who are fearful of their Lord's doom -

070.028

Lo! the doom of their Lord is that before which none can feel secure -

070.029

And those who guard their private parts,

070.030

Save with their wives and those whom their right hands possess, for thus they are not to be blamed

070.031

But those who trespass beyond this are transgressors;-

070.032

And those who keep their pledges and their covenant,

070.033

And those who are upright in their testimonies,

070.034

And those who are attentive at their worship.

070.035

These will dwell in Gardens, honoured.

070.036

Now what is the matter with the Unbelievers that they rush madly before thee-

070.037

From the right and from the left, in crowds?

070.038

Does every man of them long to enter the Garden of Bliss?

070.039

By no means! Surely We have created them of what they know.

070.040

But nay! I swear by the Lord of all points in the East and in the West that We are certainly Able

070.041

To bring instead better than them, and We shall not be overcome.

070.042

So let them chat and play until they meet their Day which they are promised,

070.043

The day when they come forth from the graves in haste, as racing to a goal,

070.044

Their eyes lowered in dejection,- ignominy covering them! Such is the Day the which they are promised!



[This message has been edited by Abrahim (edited 08-15-2006).]

All you need do is watch South Park to know that.

quote:Originally posted by random_jew:

All you need do is watch South Park to know that.

I still think Mormonism is a branch of Christianity since it holds that Jesus is the Son of God who died for the sins of mankind.

Mormons can suck my wang

quote:Originally posted by MilkAndInnards:

Mormons can suck my wang

According to Mormons, it will be the other way around since they can ascend to become a God.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

Alright, if you ever want to read the Qur'an in 3 translations, you might enjoy it: http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/



I know this thread has been hijacked enough(though the discussion with jakketch was interesting and I've drawn my own conclusions from it) I was just curious. Are you fluent in Arabic? If so, what dialect? I've been thinking of studying modern standard Arabic and the Eastern(syrian/lebanese) dialect.

Afwan, tehki arabi? Behki arabi shwei. Ana amerki. Inte suri? Inte fee libnan?

So far, I've only listened to some audio on eastern arabic. It's a fascinating language, and a real challenge for me, much harder than when I started learning french.



[This message has been edited by Zay (edited 08-23-2006).]

Bump

quote:Originally posted by Zay:

I know this thread has been hijacked enough(though the discussion with jakketch was interesting and I've drawn my own conclusions from it) I was just curious. Are you fluent in Arabic? If so, what dialect? I've been thinking of studying modern standard Arabic and the Eastern(syrian/lebanese) dialect.

Afwan, tehki arabi? Behki arabi shwei. Ana amerki. Inte suri? Inte fee libnan?

So far, I've only listened to some audio on eastern arabic. It's a fascinating language, and a real challenge for me, much harder than when I started learning french.





I don't speak Arabic, perhaps someday I'll learn, but it is wonderful that you want to learn Arabic and I hope that you do someday! I'd mostly want to learn Qur'anic Arabic in order to better translate what is said in the Qur'an. The Arabic used in the Qur'an is not exactly the same as Modern Arabic.