I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, or in other words, I am Mormon.

I am a convert of a year and a half, and I studied the religion quite extensively before my conversion. As one who's recently been an outsider of my faith, and an insider, I have a somewhat unique perspective. I am quite serious when I say that I will be offended by no question, however outlandish.

However, as Digital_Savoir has proven to be intolerant and seeking judgement, not truth, I will duly ignore any questions she might ask. Sorry digi, but you're not welcome here.

I guess my biggest question, right now, would be what is the Church of LDS "recruiting tactics".

I only ask because I recently found out that my aunt had converted from Seventh Day Adventist to Mormonism, and it sort of caught me by surprise.

Your experiences and just a general overview of their conversion practices would be welcomed.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

I guess my biggest question, right now, would be what is the Church of LDS "recruiting tactics".

I only ask because I recently found out that my aunt had converted from Seventh Day Adventist to Mormonism, and it sort of caught me by surprise.

Your experiences and just a general overview of their conversion practices would be welcomed.

We have missionaries, young men and women (many more men than women) who serve for two years. They are called to serve all around the world.

These missionaries knock on doors, and some converts meet them that way, but the most successful are the times where the missionaries are introduced to the potential convert (we call them "investigators") by other members of the church.

Anyway, these missionaries teach lessons to the investigator about the church. When I was being converted, there were 6 lessons, the first about Joseph Smith. They give you a copy of The Book Of Mormon on the first day. Nowadays, this has changed, I think there are 4 lessons, which draw more on the missionaries own thoughts and testimony than on routine. I think the first lesson now is about God, but I'm not sure. If you're interested in that detail, I can look it up.

The "front line" as far as our conversion tactics goes, would be the missionaries, however a lot of the converts come from ordinary people within the church who talk to their friends, neighbors and relatives.

Any more specific questions I would love to answer.

Why does the church no longer recognize polygamy?

What is Mormonisms stance on the following (please make answers to each specific as to which points it might disagree or agree with):

Athiesm

Bhuddism

Judaism

Islam

Jehovah's Witnesses

Protestant Christianity

Lutheran Christianity

Catholic Christianity

Donnie Osmond (lol just kidding)

Creationism vs Evolution

What is God's control and power? Could you describe it?

What is God?

How does God Operate?

Where is God?

How did the book of Mormon come about?

With what validity or authority ("proof") does it come from its source?

Who was the founder of Mormonism what is his life story (in short)?

What is the Goal of a Mormon?

What is the Goal of Mormonism as an organized religion?

What happens to people after they die?

What are some things a Mormon is forbidden from doing?

What are some things a Mormon is encouraged to do?

What is the difference between Mormonism and other forms of Christianity, why doesn't it unite with other forms of Christianity?

What are some common questions and social issues Mormons face?

Who does God like, why?

Who does God dislike, why?

What does God like, why?

What does God dislike, why?

How does one get into Heaven, or the Kingdom of Heaven, or Paradise?

How does one get into Hell, or the fires of Hell, or Punishment in the afterlife?

What happens to a soul when we die? Then what happens?

Enjoy the questions! Please make the answers detailed but easy to reach and seperated out with the questions above the answers like:

What happens to a soul when we die? Then what happens?

Answer: Well the soul...

(Thank you so much for making this page!)

why did joseph smith give a different text the second time he dictated the mormon bible?

What was it that made you think they were any less full of shit than anybody else?

Abrahim... Wow, that's quite the list of questions... I'll answer what I can from memory, others I'll see if I can get to tomorrow.

To your list of churches:

We believe that all churches, with the possible exception of satanistic churches, have truth in them. We believe that we are the only church out there that has all the truth that is here on the earth, however. Any church that teaches it's parishoners to be good people and ends up being a force for improving it's members is a good thing.

Creationism: There is no specific doctrine to my knowledge dealing with evolution. I'm personally a theocratic evolution guy. I think God caused stuff to evolve in other words.

God is an exalted man. He has a perfect body, and is perfect. He is omnipotent and all-knowing. He is our father in heaven.

God operates by sending the Holy Spirit to teach those who pray for his guidance. He also gives the faithful and worthy the power to act in his name to bless and heal others. These days at least...

Where is God? I really don't know. I'd expect in heaven or something to that effect.

The book of mormon was written by prophets in the americas between 500ish BC and 300ish AD. I can't remember the exact numbers. When the faithful here were wiped out, The BOM was hidden in new york to await Joseph Smith, who translated it into English by the power of God.

The proof of the Book of Mormon comes from the spirit of God. Each member of the church has at one point prayed to God to know if the BOM was true, and each has found that it is. Besides, I find it unlikely that such powerful words could come from the mouth of a 14 year old 3rd grade educated boy. Especially as it was written in less than a year and was never revised.

Joseph Smith founded the church in the 1800s. When he was a boy, he went into a grove of trees to pray to decide which church he should join. God the father and Jesus christ appeared to him and told him to join none and to start his own. After that he married his wife Emma. A couple years after that Joseph Smith translated the book of mormon. The church grew from there, and Joseph Smith was repeatedly persecuted. He was tarred and feathered, beaten, etc. Finally, a warrant was issued for his arrest, and he turned himself into the authorities at Carthage jail, knowing full well that he would not return alive. A mob broke into the jail and shot and killed both Joseph Smith and his brother hyrum.

As a church we have three goals:

<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>To proclaim the Gospel (to spread ore religion as much as possible)<LI>To perfect the saints (to make mormons better people)<LI>To redeem the dead (We believe that if someone does not accept Jesus Christ on the earth, they have the chance to do so after their death, but they must still be baptised here. We baptise them in our temples.)

</UL>

When we die, we live in the spirit world, in either prison or paradise (heaven or hell) to await the resurrection. After this, we will be judged and will either be with God in the celestial kingdom, or be sent to the lower kingdoms, the terrestrial kingdom, or the lowest, the telestial kingdom. (based on a verse in corinthians)

Mormons are discouraged from drinking alcohol, coffee or tea, having sex outside marriage, being dishonest, and taking illicit drugs, among other things.

Mormons are encouraged to attend church, read scripture, pray, pay tithing, attend the temple, and be basically good people.

More questions will be answered in part 2...

PART 2

We are different from other christian denominations because we do not believe in the trinity, that is we believe that God and Jesus Christ are two different people, and that we believe that we have modern day Prophets to teach us what God really thinks. We don't "unite" with other forms of christianity basically because they don't recognise us, and don't wish to unite with us.

God loves everyone. He is our father, and a good father always loves his children, no matter what they do. We may disappoint him, but his love is unconditionial.

We face ridicule and derision from non mormons, and we can face peer pressure from other mormons to serve missions and such, stuff like that.

In order to live with God in the afterlife one must repent of their sins, be baptised by immersion for the remission of sins, and must be confirmed for the gift of the holy ghost. If you don't do all that in this life, you may after you die, however the same spirit that posesses us now will after death, so if you're not a good person now, you might not become one later.

If you don't do the above you end up in the lower kingdoms. You are not burned or anything like that, the anger and the guilt, the knowledge of what you could have had but did not, the knowledge that you are absent from God, that will form your "hell".

I hope I didn't miss any... Feel free to repost if I did. Feel free to post any clarifications you may need. I kinda winged all these questions, didn't do any research or anything.

Thank you so much for taking the time to answer all those! I feel I have a slightly better understanding of some of the concepts of Mormonism now! I need a little more explanation on what God is, how he is an Exalted Man, who Jesus is, What Jesus is, Where Jesus came from and When, What is the holy Ghost, where is the holy ghost, when was the holy ghost created?

Basically a review on What God is, an explanation of God's form as an Exalted man and how that works and what that is more specifically, Jesus his role and all that, The Holy Ghost. In detail please thank you!

I'm not welcome here ? Why ? You afraid I will refute the Christian claims of the Mormon church here, too ? http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

/\ How about I refute all religious claims. To the OP, ur religion was started by a magic hat, 'nuff said.

i dont particularly agree with mormonism, but i do have a bit more respect for it because of the way you took a strong stance against digital's intolerance problem.

i have no problem with the origin of mormonism. all religions have questionable origins. but what i do find akward is that every mormon that i have come across in my short life have been disturbingly happy. like all the time. they're pleasant and all to be around; but taking a step back to your state of mind before you converted, do see this constant state of bliss as sort of an escape from reality? or is it just a coincidence that every mormon ive met are just happy people, or do mormons just like being around me?

[This message has been edited by postdiluvium (edited 05-21-2006).]

I'll tell you their secret...

They're all on Valium!

Ooh shit, they're coming for meeee....

What's your religion if any, post? Your sets of beliefs? I've noticed Mormon's are extremely positive and happy people too. Someone told me, and this is possibly untrue, that A Mormon is now the head of Coke, and they also own some major cigarette companies and alcohol companies, they themselves can not have Caffiene, Cigarettes, or Alcohol. Possibly/Probably untrue in the case that they are the heads of those companies but maybe, im not sure though.

I think not personally having alcohol, drugs, or caffiene, a positive outlook on life, and not fuxing around will lead to a person being extremely clean and positive.

Could you answer my question on polygamy? I want to know why the church changed their position on polygamy. Many of the mormon pioneers were polygamists, have you traced your geneology back to any polygamists? Do you watch the TV show BigLove on HBO?

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

I'm not welcome here ? Why ? You afraid I will refute the Christian claims of the Mormon church here, too ? http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

Yes you did such an awesome job on refuting mormonism and proving your own claims, which are based on facts http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

The fact that you're all discussing eachother's religions so openly shows your doubt in them.

quote:Basically a review on What God is, an explanation of God's form as an Exalted man and how that works and what that is more specifically, Jesus his role and all that, The Holy Ghost. In detail please thank you!

One of the apostles of old described it something like "God once was as we are and as he is we may become" or something like that. We believe that the purpose of life on this earth is to be tested of your richeousness, but more importantly, to learn and to grow as a person. We believe that even in death, one will, if not too prideful, continue to learn and to grow until after a long time, they reach perfection. This is not a simple and easy gift given by God, but an eternity of hard work. Thereafter, the exalted being you've worked to become may have a heavenly family, spirit sons and daughters, and may create a universe for them, that they may learn and grow and eventually become perfected. God grew that way, and so might we.

I know this seems outlandish right now, I know it did to my protestant senses when I first heard it, but think about it. Think about yourself as a baby. Could you ever have understood the wisdom of your parents? Could you truly believe that one day you may become like them? If God is truly all-powerful, would he not want his worthy children to one day achieve that state? Can you really imagine strumming a harp and sitting on a cloud for eternity? Or would you like your afterlife to count for something, to continue in the work, and the joy that has always been?

Jesus is God's only begotten among his spirit children. No, I have no idea what that means, I'll ask when I get to church today. I do know however that he was the best, and the brightest, the most humble, the most loyal to the throne, and was like unto God himself. From the beginning Jesus was groomed for the job of being the Savior of the world, to redeem and to wash all of our sins. According to the Pearl of Great Price, Satan wanted this job, he said something like "let me be their redeemer, let me do everything and none will be lost", meaning that he wanted to take away our free will, our agency, and that everyone would be richeous down here, but that wouldn't mean anything because we wouldn't have chosen it. However Jesus said "thy will be done father" (in a hurry, so I'm not gonna look up the actual quote just yet), and God chose Jesus to be our savior. This made satan angry, and he started his war against heaven, and with him 1/3 of all the host, 1/3 of all the spirits in heaven, were sent away. I realize that answer needs a bit of revision, and a bit of cleanup, but I have to be getting to church here, we have Stake Conference today, a big important meeting, and it's an hour away. Don't worry, I'll get to the happiness and polygamy questions, and I'll look up some verses for a better answer about Jesus and the Holy Ghost when I get back.

Digi: I told you I didn't want you here because you would get agressive, preechy, judgemental and intolerant, and would ruin what has turned out to be a genial and informative thread.

What about you god living on the star or planet Kolob? Do Mormons really belive that?

As kinda said in

"saw the stars, that they were very great, and that one of them was nearest unto the throne of God;....and the name of the great one is Kolob, because it is near unto me, for I am the Lord thy God: I have set this one to govern all those which belong to the same order as that upon which thou standest." (Book of Abraham 3:2-3.)



Is it in the mormon religion that he has many wifes?



[This message has been edited by Q777 (edited 05-21-2006).]

Thanks a trillion for your answers! I really like them! I don't mind at all how you answered and I'm not a stickler for direct quotes really, I'm most interested in your belief and understanding specifically, as an individual. So God has a form? Who was God's spiritual father and whats God's life story? It has just been a long chain of spiritual fathers and sons making their own universes? God is within Reality right? The way it mentions starts and directions makes it seem like "God is exalted human with a form and a location and is within Reality, and within The Universe." Is that a correct conclusion?

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

Thanks a trillion for your answers! I really like them! I don't mind at all how you answered and I'm not a stickler for direct quotes really, I'm most interested in your belief and understanding specifically, as an individual. So God has a form? Who was God's spiritual father and whats God's life story? It has just been a long chain of spiritual fathers and sons making their own universes? God is within Reality right? The way it mentions starts and directions makes it seem like "God is exalted human with a form and a location and is within Reality, and within The Universe." Is that a correct conclusion?

That sounds about right, although I'm not 100% sure where God is at the moment, I know that his thoughts and actions effect me, as a mormon and as a christian, and that as far away as he may seem, He knows us personally and loves us all very much. He sends us his spirit to dwell within us and show us the path to richeousness, and he has sent his firstborn son to suffer, bleed and die for our salvation.

As far as his life's story... I really don't care honestly. If he was born on the planet "kolob", I'm willing to accept that if it's doctrine. To my knowledge, we know nothing about God's spirit father, our "spirit grandfather" as it were, and again, it would not matter if we did, as we would not pray to him, just as we do not pray to the brothers of our heavenly father (if he has any), or any other Gods. The only God of consequence to us is the father of our spirits, God.

As far as I know, since the beginning of time, or not even the beginning of time, as I think "the beginning of time" should refer to the beginning of our spacial universe, but even before the beginning of time, billions of eons perhaps, there have been Gods and their children. Each with a similar relationship to their heavenly father as we have to ours.

quote:Originally posted by Real.PUA:

Could you answer my question on polygamy? I want to know why the church changed their position on polygamy. Many of the mormon pioneers were polygamists, have you traced your geneology back to any polygamists? Do you watch the TV show BigLove on HBO?

Short answer, we stopped the doctrine of polygamy because God told us it was time to stop. It was probibly time for the church to enter the mainstream, and in order to do that, it needed to stop polygamy. In an interesting side note, there are many stories from back in the day which show that many higher ups in the church did not want to take multiple wives, but they did because God asked them to.

My geaneology traces back to roman catholics, irish catholics, english protestants and scandanavian protestants. I am the first person in my bloodline to be mormon.

I do not watch the show "BigLove". Not because it offends me or anything like that, but mainly because I do not have HBO. I do plan on renting it when the series comes out on DVD however. The church sent out a statement on the show talking about how we have had nothing to do with polygamy for over 100 years, and that in this day and age, polygamist relationships tend to be abusive and such. Never told us not to watch the show...

Personally, I would not want a second wife. I'll be marrying my first and last later this year, and I can't imagine splitting my time and.... energy... between her and others.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

What's your religion if any, post? Your sets of beliefs? I've noticed Mormon's are extremely positive and happy people too. Someone told me, and this is possibly untrue, that A Mormon is now the head of Coke, and they also own some major cigarette companies and alcohol companies, they themselves can not have Caffiene, Cigarettes, or Alcohol. Possibly/Probably untrue in the case that they are the heads of those companies but maybe, im not sure though.

I think not personally having alcohol, drugs, or caffiene, a positive outlook on life, and not fuxing around will lead to a person being extremely clean and positive.

You are correct. Mormons are happier people because we keep our minds and lives clean. We focus on the important things, like family and our faith in God and Jesus Christ. We focus on what we have, and not what we don't have. We do not lament the big screen Tv we don't have, but cherish the love of our family and our God. We do not focus on the prospect of hell, and how we must work to stay away from it, but glory in the promise of Heaven. In fact, in the year and a half I've been going to church there, I've never heard one talk about eternal punnishment, but many about eternal reward. That is what God is all about.

quote:Originally posted by Jaryohem063:

Short answer, we stopped the doctrine of polygamy because God told us it was time to stop.

And when and how did he tell you all this?

quote:Originally posted by Jaryohem063:

Mormons are happier people because we keep our minds and lives clean.

Happier than who?

quote:Originally posted by Q777:

And when and how did he tell you all this?

From the time of Joseph Smith there has always been a prophet on the earth to guide us on the path. Our current prophet's name is Gordon B. Hinckley. I have great respect for him, he is a kind, genial man, however he won't be here much longer. He is very old.

I don't know off the top of my head which prophet was leading the church when polygamy was stopped.

quote:Originally posted by Boblong:

Originally posted by Jaryohem063:

Mormons are happier people because we keep our minds and lives clean.

Happier than who?

Most people I guess. I don't have a particular group in mind. There are happy and unhappy people in every church, however, there are more happy mormons, because of the way our church goes about teaching things. I can only say for a sureity that I am much happier in this church than I ever was in any other, and I've been around. I've seen people go from non-mormon to mormon, and I've always seen them much happier this way.

You believe that these prophets can talk to God? How are this prophets chosen/appointed?

And could you answer my earlier questions

What about you god living on the star or planet Kolob? Do Mormons really believe that?

As kinda said in

"saw the stars, that they were very great, and that one of them was nearest unto the throne of God;....and the name of the great one is Kolob, because it is near unto me, for I am the Lord thy God: I have set this one to govern all those which belong to the same order as that upon which thou standest." (Book of Abraham 3:2-3.)



Is it in the Mormon religion that God has many wives?

What are the churches views on the FLDS and the actions of Warren Jeffs? Well, I'm pretty sure about the answers to that but what were the views before things were exposed? Did you even recognize them as a branch?

Why the uniform churches? It seems like there are only 2 or 3 differing styles of churches. I live in a city with a high population of mormons.

quote:Originally posted by Q777:

You believe that these prophets can talk to God? How are this prophets chosen/appointed?

And could you answer my earlier questions

What about you god living on the star or planet Kolob? Do Mormons really believe that?

As kinda said in

"saw the stars, that they were very great, and that one of them was nearest unto the throne of God;....and the name of the great one is Kolob, because it is near unto me, for I am the Lord thy God: I have set this one to govern all those which belong to the same order as that upon which thou standest." (Book of Abraham 3:2-3.)



Is it in the Mormon religion that God has many wives?



The prophets are usually the senior member of the quorum of the 12 apostles at the time of the last prophet's death. (the 12 apostles are the people right under the prophet) However, the prophet is always unanimously chosen by the 12.

Like I said, I don't know about the planet kolob thing. I've never heard of it.

We haven't practiced polygamy in over 100 years.

quote:Originally posted by D-Loc 1605:

What are the churches views on the FLDS and the actions of Warren Jeffs? Well, I'm pretty sure about the answers to that but what were the views before things were exposed? Did you even recognize them as a branch?

Why the uniform churches? It seems like there are only 2 or 3 differing styles of churches. I live in a city with a high population of mormons.

We're not big fans of the FLDS. We have nothing to do with them. No mormons other than those which belong to the Salt Lake City based Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has anything to do with the mother church. The community of christ, the FLDS, all of these are as far outside of our church as the batists or the catholics.

I believe that Warren Jeffs is a criminal. If I saw him on the streets, I would call the police and collect the FBI reward.

I don't know about the church style thing...

I've been in... 5?... different churches. They all seem different to me, but the one in michigan was quite similar to ours here, except for different colors...

Doesn't Psalm 102:27 say "But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end."? That would mean that God doesn't change correct?

quote:Originally posted by Dragonsthrone:

Doesn't Psalm 102:27 say "But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end."? That would mean that God doesn't change correct?

God has not changed, we have. And therefore, God's approach to us must change.

quote:Originally posted by Jaryohem063:

God has not changed, we have. And therefore, God's approach to us must change.

So therefore god DOES change. So really, God depends on humans and not the other way arond. Which proves once again that religion is man-made and is a total pile of shit.

quote:Originally posted by ohhi:

So therefore god DOES change. So really, God depends on humans and not the other way arond. Which proves once again that religion is man-made and is a total pile of shit.



You're an idiot. Perhaps I can make this clear enough for you to understand.

Pretend God is a computer program that doesn't change. Example:

If human does A, God does B

If human does C, God does D

God can change his actions without actually changing who he is.

However, Mormonism teaches that God was once like us. According to Mormon doctrine, God has changed over time. I'm sure this is consistent with a "proper" translation of the Bible.

quote:Originally posted by jsaxton14:

You're an idiot. Perhaps I can make this clear enough for you to understand.

Pretend God is a computer program that doesn't change. Example:

If human does A, God does B

If human does C, God does D

God can change his actions without actually changing who he is.

However, Mormonism teaches that God was once like us. According to Mormon doctrine, God has changed over time. I'm sure this is consistent with a "proper" translation of the Bible.



How would you define "time"?

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I believe that "time" should be measured from the start of our spacial universe. Before then, there was no "time" as we know it. God created the heavens, the sun, the earth. God created our universe. Therefore, throughout our time, God has not changed one bit, has he?

quote:Originally posted by Jaryohem063:



How would you define "time"?

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I believe that "time" should be measured from the start of our spacial universe. Before then, there was no "time" as we know it. God created the heavens, the sun, the earth. God created our universe. Therefore, throughout our time, God has not changed one bit, has he?

Using your measurement of time, God has not changed according to Mormon doctrine. However, I think your definition of time is silly. Do you have any scripture to back up this definition of time?

quote:Originally posted by jsaxton14:

Using your measurement of time, God has not changed according to Mormon doctrine. However, I think your definition of time is silly. Do you have any scripture to back up this definition of time?

Have you any to back up yours? Is there a firm, unmoving definition for "time" anywhere in the bible?

I do know that it has been proven that time and space are related, and there is much evidence to support the theory that time is simply a 4th dimension to space. Therefore, before there was space, there was no time, and if God created space, he therefore also created time. And if he created time, then he can easily have been unchanged through all time, even if he had been different before our time existed.

I know you to be a man of science and logic jsaxton14, do you deny that time and space are one as I have described?

Could it not therefore be possible that there are parts of existance that we cannot comprehend, or that certainly would not have been written down for pre-2nd century readers?

quote:Originally posted by Jaryohem063:

Have you any to back up yours? Is there a firm, unmoving definition for "time" anywhere in the bible?

No, and even if there were, I don't consider the Bible to be a reliable source of Scientific information.

quote:Originally posted by Jaryohem063:

I do know that it has been proven that time and space are related, and there is much evidence to support the theory that time is simply a 4th dimension to space. Therefore, before there was space, there was no time, and if God created space, he therefore also created time. And if he created time, then he can easily have been unchanged through all time, even if he had been different before our time existed.

Change requires a temporal dimension. Regardless of whether or not your god has changed in this temporal dimension, or some other temporal dimension, it doesn't negate the fact that he changed at some point in some temporal dimension.

You're redefining time in order to make your text consistent.

quote:Originally posted by Jaryohem063:

I know you to be a man of science and logic jsaxton14, do you deny that time and space are one as I have described?

No. Will you deny that change requires a temporal dimension?

quote:Originally posted by Jaryohem063:

Could it not therefore be possible that there are parts of existance that we cannot comprehend, or that certainly would not have been written down for pre-2nd century readers?

Our knowledge of science at this point is certainly not complete.

Yes, change requires a temporal dimension, yes God changed within a temporal dimension, no God has not changed within our temporal dimension.

I would not say that I am "redifining" time, as there is no definate scriptural or religious definition of time to my knowledge in any western religion. I am simply asking for a definition of time.

Do you have the scriptures which say that God never changes, perhaps they would shine more light on this contraversy.

quote:Originally posted by Jaryohem063:

Do you have the scriptures which say that God never changes, perhaps they would shine more light on this contraversy.

Hebrews 13:8:

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

Malachi 3:6

For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

The bible makes in incredibly clear that God doesn't change. There is no clause stating "I changed, but not in this temporal dimension." It says I change not.

Mormonism teaches God changed.

quote:Originally posted by jsaxton14:

Hebrews 13:8:

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

Malachi 3:6

For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

The bible makes in incredibly clear that God doesn't change. There is no clause stating "I changed, but not in this temporal dimension." It says I change not.

Mormonism teaches God changed.

Neither of those espouse a definiton of time, Nor, if you look at them correctly, do they prove your point.

Saying "I change not" is present tense. It is the same as me saying "I do not smoke" ("I smoke not"), as I do not smoke. However, I have smoked in the past. Nor does "yesterday, today and forever" does not give a definate time frame. Could Jesus have changed in the time before there were days?

If anyone is able, please read the following, it is a note on behavior in this forum, the following sentiment was echoed by some others in the past:

I wish people were nicer in this forum instead of flinging around words like stupid, idiot, dumbass, and all that. God or not, how respectable of a person does it make you when you make remarks on such a level, or even suggest it. Such as this quote from our beloved host here:

"Jaryohem063 posted in Opus Dei:

Let's see...

The title of the thread is "opus dei", the initials of which being "od". An intelligent totsean would connect the two. You seem not to have. I wonder if you can see where I'm going with this..."

after I mentioned Operational Thetan, OT, from Scientology. Not only was it rude but not required, and I'm sure its not something that should be encouraged, or would be encouraged.

I honestly liked you and thought you were a nice guy, based on my communication with you here in this Mormon house of questions.

In any case I used Jaryohem063 as an example because from this forum he gave me the impression he was generally a nice person who wouldnt make any comments like he did in Opus Dei.

I really think people should change their tone in this forum, especially those who claim to be religious or part of a religion. Where has God suggested to insult people? To call them low, and losers, and dumb, and to suggest they are stupid? Perchance they might know more than you, so sit back, no matter what they say, and learn from it.

Name calling is not a "becoming" behavior. It is not suitable for those who claim to be spiritual people to be calling names. Yes it seems like a small thing, we are so distant from each other that we can be rude, make sarcastic comments, and suggest each other are stupid, but that is not a kind or appealing way to behave.

Those of you who do have a religion, represent it properly as one who is best in conduct, gain respect through your good nature, do not fall to the temptation and lowness of insulting and degrading people, you have no need for that, it is bad tactic and does not coincide with personal spiritual growth.

To those without a religion, a similar message applies, what benefit do you get from fighting on such level as insulting people or attempting to degrade others and in turn degrading yourselves by the tactics you employ?

The name of this forum is: My God can Beat the Shit out of Your God. In my opinion, it should be about just that, What Religion is True, What your beliefs are, What God is the True God and more.

This forum is not called: Insults R Us.

So if you want to post lengthy battles of how stupid, ugly, dumb, self righteous, fat, arrogant, and fartilicious someone is, do it in another Forum. This place should be an Arena for the debate of God, for people to come for Spiritual Growth and Learning.

Use your Gods to do the fighting rather than slights and insults of intelligence. Be decent people, no matter what you believe, and speak nicely to one another, its better for you and everyone.

Bring your Religion, no matter what it is, explain it, put it out there, let people learn, some might accept, some might deny it, so ask questions, make them difficult, make the other person answer or not answer, and you can do all this WITHOUT calling them stupid or losers. Use some tact, skill, and talent in your debates. If you behave in a truly intelligent way, no matter how big the words you use are, you will be respected by others, and you can even respect yourself more.

This message is in reference to all of you, even me, why not make this a pleasant place to duke it out using our Gods and Monsters, rather than weak words and insults to each other personally.

Let the "Enemy" do the talking, you just ask them questions that makes it hard for them.

Anyway, I hope the best among you see what I am saying and take my advice and use it to your advantage.

I give my personal thanks to anyone who read this completely and to those who agree with what I'm saying.

I appologise if I offended you, that was not my intention.

As easy as it is to decry those who flame, it is just as easy to avoid being flamed. Being on totse, no matter what forum, you run the risk of being made fun of. It is the price you pay for the annonimity and safety of the internet.

In the future, I will try to avoid flaming you.

Sorry.

quote:Originally posted by Jaryohem063:

I appologise if I offended you, that was not my intention.

As easy as it is to decry those who flame, it is just as easy to avoid being flamed. Being on totse, no matter what forum, you run the risk of being made fun of. It is the price you pay for the annonimity and safety of the internet.

In the future, I will try to avoid flaming you.

Sorry.

Thanks for the apology, I appreciate it alot! I hope that you understood my overall message and personally take it into account as something we should both adopt, taking preference to kindness and politeness for ourselves and towards others despite how low they may go.

Is it true that Mormons beleive that they will convert a mass amount of American Indians, who will then kill every gentile in the United States that isn't a Mormon; then build New Jeruselem in Independance, Missouri?

quote:Originally posted by Dragonsthrone:

Is it true that Mormons beleive that they will convert a mass amount of American Indians, who will then kill every gentile in the United States that isn't a Mormon; then build New Jeruselem in Independance, Missouri?

No. That's not true. Mormons don't go around killing nonmormons.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

Thanks for the apology, I appreciate it alot! I hope that you understood my overall message and personally take it into account as something we should both adopt, taking preference to kindness and politeness for ourselves and towards others despite how low they may go.

This reminds me, what's the Mormon stance on homosexuality?

quote:Originally posted by jsaxton14:

This reminds me, what's the Mormon stance on homosexuality?

We believe that any homosexual activity is sin. Those involved in homosexual relationships are excommunicated. Keep in mind that excommunicated doesn't mean the same thing with us as it does with the catholics, although you are not considered a member of the church, you are still encouraged to attend meetings and be as active as a nonmember can until you become worthy enough to regain your membership. We follow the standard dichotomy of "hate the sin, not the sinner."

W00T W00T 2 pages!

Which reminds me, how did abrahim's reply remind you of the homosexuality question, that perplexes me.

Abrahim: Nice post . I agree, unfourtunately it is way too easy to let it get away with you and write something that is a little .. hotheaded.

I personally blame it on someone else ... I'll go out on a limb and blame it on the god of over-reacting and Letting-The-Moment-Run-Away-With-You. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)



Jay:

Nice thread.

You've manage to interest me in mormonism , not enought o convert me I'm afriad http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif) But you've managed not to turn me away ... You should give the others on this board a lesson on how to talk to others about your religion.

I'm interested in the us evolving into a likeness of god. Is God someone from another universe who has become like a God and so truly became God and made this world/universe?

Or perhaps more clearly; Do you believe that we can eventually become as gods and make universes of our own?

Mormonism certainly seems to be a more positive religion than any that most people have put forward on this board... I'll be looking it up a little more...

Also can I have a little more information on the other books that I see mentioned? And the role of the Prophets?

quote:Originally posted by JesuitArtiste:

Abrahim: Nice post . I agree, unfourtunately it is way too easy to let it get away with you and write something that is a little .. hotheaded.

I personally blame it on someone else ... I'll go out on a limb and blame it on the god of over-reacting and Letting-The-Moment-Run-Away-With-You. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)



Jay:

Nice thread.

You've manage to interest me in mormonism , not enought o convert me I'm afriad http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif) But you've managed not to turn me away ... You should give the others on this board a lesson on how to talk to others about your religion.

I'm interested in the us evolving into a likeness of god. Is God someone from another universe who has become like a God and so truly became God and made this world/universe?

Or perhaps more clearly; Do you believe that we can eventually become as gods and make universes of our own?

Mormonism certainly seems to be a more positive religion than any that most people have put forward on this board... I'll be looking it up a little more...

Also can I have a little more information on the other books that I see mentioned? And the role of the Prophets?

God is as we once were and as God is we may become.

It is a fair assessment to say that we believe that God was a man in another universe who achieved Godhood and came here to create this one.

If you are a good, moral person who has repented of your sins and truly changed and put your sin behind you, and has been baptised by one in authority, in this life or the next, has been confirmed by the laying on of hands, has been endowed in the temple and has been married for time and all eternity in the temple, you will be eligible for Godhood.

We believe that the purpose of this life is to learn and to grow as individuals. That growth will continue in the next life until you eventually become perfect, and become like God. We are God's heavenly children, and like our children here on earth, if we play our cards right, we can grow up to be just like dad.

quote:Originally posted by Jaryohem063:

God is as we once were and as God is we may become.

It is a fair assessment to say that we believe that God was a man in another universe who achieved Godhood and came here to create this one......

......

We are God's heavenly children, and like our children here on earth, if we play our cards right, we can grow up to be just like dad.



Hmm... Sounds interesting ... Thanks.

What role do the prophets fulfill?

And also what sort of content do the books I've heard mentioned have?

Thanks

quote:Originally posted by JesuitArtiste:



Also can I have a little more information on the other books that I see mentioned? And the role of the Prophets?

The 4 books in the mormon cannon of scripture are:

The holy bible (the regular, unchanged King James bible.)

The book of Mormon (The Book of Mormon was dug up by Joseph Smith and translated into English by the power of God. It sounds a bit hokey, but I believe it to be true)

The Doctrines and Covenants (A set of revelations given to Joseph Smith during his time here)

The Pearl of Great Price (This is a small set of scripture at the back of the quad, I really don't know much about it, but I do know that it tells much more about the war in heaven, the foundation of the earth, and such.)



The role of the prophets...

In the days of old, prophets were sent to the earth to guide the people of God back to the path, back to the teachings of God. Joseph Smith was sent for the same reason. The earth had fallen into a state of apostasy, meaning having fallen away from God. Church doctrines were, and still are, spread all over the place, blown by every wind of doctrine. Joseph Smith restored the church that God wanted to be on the earth, and he payed for it with his life. Modern day prophets keep us on the path. These are trying times. The temptation to sin is everywhere. Having a modern day prophet on the earth teaches us to keep away from these new temptations like pornography, credit card debt, jesse helms... http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

We are always free to chose our path, but our prophet teaches us the path that God wants us to take.

quote:Originally posted by JesuitArtiste:



Hmm... Sounds interesting ... Thanks.

What role do the prophets fulfill?

And also what sort of content do the books I've heard mentioned have?

Thanks

I was working on the answer when you wrote this, so I'm not sure exactly what you're looking for with the latter question, if my current answer does not fufil your curiosity, please be more specific, and I will answer as best I can.

quote:Originally posted by Jaryohem063:

Short answer, we stopped the doctrine of polygamy because God told us it was time to stop.

God works in convenient ways. Made that time right about when the government threatened to kick you out of the country.

quote:Originally posted by JesuitArtiste:



Abrahim: Nice post . I agree, unfourtunately it is way too easy to let it get away with you and write something that is a little .. hotheaded.



Feel free to visit any of my 3 topics here, or to ask questions in my "Interested in Islam? ask questions here!"

[This message has been edited by Abrahim (edited 05-24-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by MasterPython:

God works in convenient ways. Made that time right about when the government threatened to kick you out of the country.



I see no reason why that's out of the question.

Does god have to work invonviently to earn your respect?

quote:Originally posted by Jaryohem063:

Originally posted by MasterPython:

God works in convenient ways. Made that time right about when the government threatened to kick you out of the country.



I see no reason why that's out of the question.

Does god have to work invonviently to earn your respect?

No, just a slight, glaring coincidence.

I mean, they stuck to their beliefs through the light persecution and the name-calling and yadda yadda, and once the Feds surrounded you with cannons, !PING!, God changed his mind.

Have you ever considered that the current prophet didn't have balls enough to become another Masada and hold to his beliefs come what may? Is it possible that your prophet compromised, and put the blame on God?

At least you're clear about your beliefs. I got bored of reading once I found out you don't have fun, but it's still cool, and you're not as bad as I thought you were.

Perhaps its greatest claim is that it is preparing the way for the second coming of Jesus. Christ's second coming is to be preceded by a massive conversion of the American Indians to Christ through the Book of Mormon. These converted Indians will then exterminate those gentiles in the Americas who will not accept it.5 After that, the believing Indians and the Mormons will build the New Jerusalem where Christ will return to live (3 Nephi 16:11-16;7:35-42;3 Nephi 21:24-25;9:98-100). Subsequent revelation by Joseph Smith revealed this site to be in Independence, Missouri.

If this isn't true what do those passages talk about?

quote:Originally posted by crazed_hamster:

No, just a slight, glaring coincidence.

I mean, they stuck to their beliefs through the light persecution and the name-calling and yadda yadda, and once the Feds surrounded you with cannons, !PING!, God changed his mind.

Have you ever considered that the current prophet didn't have balls enough to become another Masada and hold to his beliefs come what may? Is it possible that your prophet compromised, and put the blame on God?

At least you're clear about your beliefs. I got bored of reading once I found out you don't have fun, but it's still cool, and you're not as bad as I thought you were.

Light persecution? Name calling? The feds surrounding us with cannons?

You better get your facts straight boy.

There was no light persecution. The mobs burned down mormon houses with children inside, whipped us, tarred and feathered us, and killed our prophet. I'd say that qualifies as a little bit more than "name calling". Secondly, if you're going to make an accusation, make the right accusation. The feds threatened to keep Utah from statehood and to destroy mormon temples. The people were ready to retreat into the mountains and fight a guerilla war, but the prophet said that God did not want any more violence, any more killing. Enough mormons had died at the hands of mobs and such allready. We did not need more martyrs.

quote:Originally posted by Jaryohem063:

I was working on the answer when you wrote this, so I'm not sure exactly what you're looking for with the latter question, if my current answer does not fufil your curiosity, please be more specific, and I will answer as best I can.

No thats good thanks ...

Have A Nice Day.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

I really think people should change their tone in this forum, especially those who claim to be religious or part of a religion. Where has God suggested to insult people?

You mean by calling them "nasty" behind their backs ?

quote:Name calling is not a "becoming" behavior.

So is lying by ommission, yet you seem to have no issues with THAT.

quote:It is not suitable for those who claim to be spiritual people to be calling names.

Is it suitable to talk about people behind their backs, lie, and slander their religion ?

I didn't realize "true" Muslims were encouraged to do such things, being as holy as they are, treating all manner of sin with abhorrance. It is, after all, a religion of peace...is it not ?

Jary will you plz answer my question?

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Is it suitable to talk about people behind their backs, lie, and slander their religion ?

I didn't realize "true" Muslims were encouraged to do such things, being as holy as they are, treating all manner of sin with abhorrance. It is, after all, a religion of peace...is it not ?

I fail to see the relevance of this post...

I apologise...it ISN'T relevant to this thread. It is relevant to real life, however, and he will know to what I am referring.

Again, I apologise. No intent to derail the topic, here.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

I apologise...it ISN'T relevant to this thread. It is relevant to real life, however, and he will know to what I am referring.

Again, I apologise. No intent to derail the topic, here.



That was pretty nice ...

Here .. Have a cookie ...

Err... sort of.

quote:Originally posted by JesuitArtiste:



That was pretty nice ...

Here .. Have a cookie ...

Err... sort of.

He's a muslim?!

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Is it suitable to talk about people behind their backs, lie, and slander their religion ?

I didn't realize "true" Muslims were encouraged to do such things, being as holy as they are, treating all manner of sin with abhorrance. It is, after all, a religion of peace...is it not ?

Wait a diddle daddle, when did I call you NASTY? We have a fine time on MSN. If I called you nasty somewhere it was in reference to either the way I've seen you call people losers on this forum (even though they were being mean possibly or silly) and if not that then possibly in reference to something else. I like you though and I don't understand what the heck you're talking about, if I called you nasty somewhere I'm sorry but I don't want you to be nasty! Doesn't mean you ARE by nature Nasty, clearly you're not, but I was probably reffering to something. I'm sure I must've said it, you wouldn't just come out of the blue, but where? in what context? who told you? What do Mormons have to do with it?!

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

Wait a diddle daddle, when did I call you NASTY? We have a fine time on MSN. If I called you nasty somewhere it was in reference to either the way I've seen you call people losers on this forum (even though they were being mean possibly or silly) and if not that then possibly in reference to something else. I like you though and I don't understand what the heck you're talking about, if I called you nasty somewhere I'm sorry but I don't want you to be nasty! Doesn't mean you ARE by nature Nasty, clearly you're not, but I was probably reffering to something. I'm sure I must've said it, you wouldn't just come out of the blue, but where? in what context? who told you? What do Mormons have to do with it?!

For the record, Digital_Savior used to keep transcripts of all her conversations, and has used them to discredit people in the past, and I wouldn't put it past her to do so again.

quote:Originally posted by Dragonsthrone:

Perhaps its greatest claim is that it is preparing the way for the second coming of Jesus. Christ's second coming is to be preceded by a massive conversion of the American Indians to Christ through the Book of Mormon. These converted Indians will then exterminate those gentiles in the Americas who will not accept it.5 After that, the believing Indians and the Mormons will build the New Jerusalem where Christ will return to live (3 Nephi 16:11-16;7:35-42;3 Nephi 21:24-25;9:98-100). Subsequent revelation by Joseph Smith revealed this site to be in Independence, Missouri.

If this isn't true what do those passages talk about?

Sorry for the delay, I have been busy these last few days.

The 9th chapter of 3rd nephi only has 22 verses. Far less than 100.

The 7th chapter of 3rd nephi only has 26 verses.

3rd nephi 16:11-16 is talking about how those who follow the gospel will prevail in the end.

3rd nephi 21:24-25 talks about the end and how Jesus will come amongst his people then.

I don't know where you got this "american indians are gonna destroy everyone at the end" crap. That's not anyone's doctrine.

Okay, it goes like this. Digital? Jesuit? Abrahim? Shut the fuck up about each other. No closing comments. No continuing the argument subtley. Either stay on topic or don't post.

Ironic, I know.

I have a question. On the mormon commercial, they say the book of mormon is a companion to the bible.. How does that work?

Galatians 1:8 (NIV)

But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!

^ that pretty much says there are no companions...

Also, why don't mormon missionaries bring cookies like the jehova's witnesses? /jk

[This message has been edited by cracked_anarchist (edited 05-27-2006).]

hmm... no answers?

I GOT A PRESENT FOR YOU ALL!

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/BOM/index.htm

The above is the book of Mormon, but not only the book of Mormon, THE SKEPTICS ANNOTED BOOK OF MORMON! This can be used to ask Jar Jar questions!

The Book isn't the only thing you can depend on though, since Mormonism has a chain of Prophets that bring new information and laws to the table! But this will give you the original, and also has had someone else to skeptically make notes about it!

quote:Originally posted by cracked_anarchist:

I have a question. On the mormon commercial, they say the book of mormon is a companion to the bible.. How does that work?

Galatians 1:8 (NIV)

But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!

^ that pretty much says there are no companions...

Also, why don't mormon missionaries bring cookies like the jehova's witnesses? /jk



No, that says that anyone who is teaching something different from original christianity is wrong. Considering how far every single sect has swayed away from original christianity, I don't believe that any of you have the right to criticise my religion as such. We believe we are a restoration of the church of old.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

I GOT A PRESENT FOR YOU ALL!

htt p://www.sk epticsanno tatedbible.com/BOM/index.htm (http: //www.skep ticsannota tedbible.c om/BOM/ind ex.htm)

The above is the book of Mormon, but not only the book of Mormon, THE SKEPTICS ANNOTED BOOK OF MORMON! This can be used to ask Jar Jar questions!

The Book isn't the only thing you can depend on though, since Mormonism has a chain of Prophets that bring new information and laws to the table! But this will give you the original, and also has had someone else to skeptically make notes about it!

I figured someone was gonna bring stuff like that in here, but I didn't think it was going to be you abrahim.

I'd also like to point out that there is a skeptics annotated bible and koran, so it's not as if these folk are just attacking us, they are attacking religion alltogether.

Where is the question in this?

Also, I appologise for my absence, I was told I had 2.5 weeks more work at my current job and so I've been job searching.

can a man see god the father?

[This message has been edited by vice (edited 06-01-2006).]

Post a pic of your magic undies

quote:Originally posted by Jaryohem063:

I figured someone was gonna bring stuff like that in here, but I didn't think it was going to be you abrahim.

I'd also like to point out that there is a skeptics annotated bible and koran, so it's not as if these folk are just attacking us, they are attacking religion alltogether.

Where is the question in this?

Also, I appologise for my absence, I was told I had 2.5 weeks more work at my current job and so I've been job searching.

I'm not making fun of you or Mormonism but when someone sent me the Skeptics Annoted Bible I got excited and wanted to share it. It is nothing to fear, alot of the things they question and they way they question it are very silly. I reviewed the books, its a great way to get quick topic based questions and understanding. The texts are still there in their complete form and they are fine, the messages dont change at all. Enjoy it, Answer it, do what you will with it, it can be used as an educational tool.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Is it suitable to talk about people behind their backs, lie, and slander their religion ?

I didn't realize "true" Muslims were encouraged to do such things, being as holy as they are, treating all manner of sin with abhorrance. It is, after all, a religion of peace...is it not ?

SILENCE, HEATHEN!!

quote:Originally posted by Jaryohem063:

We believe that any homosexual activity is sin. Those involved in homosexual relationships are excommunicated. Keep in mind that excommunicated doesn't mean the same thing with us as it does with the catholics, although you are not considered a member of the church, you are still encouraged to attend meetings and be as active as a nonmember can until you become worthy enough to regain your membership. We follow the standard dichotomy of "hate the sin, not the sinner."



Yes, hate the sin not the sinner, but... condemnn the sinner anyway because well that's just gross.

Why do Mormons "bleed the beast"? Seems like you guys are no better than drug dealers. You leech off of the government and are still employed.

Ok, so what's the deal with "Kolob"? Do you take it literally? And if so, why haven't the Mormons undertaken a massive program to build Battlestars and start searching the cosmos for it?

Im just gonna say what everyones thinkin...

fuck off Jaryohem

quote:Originally posted by jb_mcbean:

SILENCE, HEATHEN!!

hmm i like that, heathen. yay i have a new word.