Lately I've been having lots of problems with depression, anxiety, and losing my sanity in general. A few months ago I attempted suicide, which first landed me in the county hospital and then a psychiatric hospital over a hundred miles away, which I stayed in for over a week. Things never have gotten much better since then, but I continue. This is why I haven't posted on Totse much lately. Last week, however, while I was having a mood swing which was altering my state of mind, I came across my new philosophy. It's nothing new under the sun, and it's far from comprehensive, but it's what I believe now. One of my friends said it sounded like Eastern philosophy. I'd say that's true to an extent, but I think it has a different focus than most Eastern philosophies. You could say that it is a combination of eastern philosophy, nihilism, and agnosticism.

---------------------------------------------------

A Philosophy of Dreams

A fitting analogy for a life is the dream, in that we are typically unaware of our state of mind. We blunder about certain of the nature of reality, and when we see something amiss we dismiss it as just some unfortunate, or perhaps evil, event. It is not that we are stubborn, we just do not wish to give up the dream. When something completely destroys someone's beliefs, awakening can occur. It is a form of dissociation, sometimes called depersonalization/derealization. The reality of our situation becomes clear, and yet there is nothing to desire about it unless we are escaping a nightmare. Even then, it can feel like you're going insane, or if it is an incomplete awakening, emotions such as terror and despair can take over. Being awake does not mean knowing everything. It is just leaving the dream to have sense of self, no sense of purpose, and no sense of meaning.

Another state that can occur I term lucidity. This is much easier to obtain than being awake, and much more desirable. Like what we know as being lucid in a dream, it is being aware of our condition. In fact, lucid literally means "aware." The biggest reward for becoming lucid is that you can draw away from your emotions without feeling like you're losing your mind.

Our dreams are what give our lives meaning and purpose. They can be sweet fantasies or dark nightmares. Like literal dreams, lives often end abruptly, for no apparent purpose. Like literal dreams, the meaning and purpose can change without us realizing it.

Behind it all is a physical functioning. For literal dreams, it is the brain processing thoughts and memories. For the figurative dreams, it is the physics of the universe acting out its fate.

Outside our dreams in the cold, calculating physical structure of the universe, the meaning and purpose we have given everything is lost. It does not have an intrinsic meaning and purpose. It is just the framework for our dreams. I do not contend and will not pretend to know what comes after death, why anything exists at all, or what consciousness is. Perhaps we will find out sometime in the future, or perhaps someone already knows, or perhaps we are just asking the wrong questions. For example, maybe there is no "why" to the fact that our universe exists.

Because we are each in our own dream, this can create unusual effects in interhuman relations. Men fight over fantasies, each with their own idea of what things are and how they should be. They do not understand one another because they live in their own dream worlds. Some are so convinced of the reality of their dreams that they cannot see things any way other than their own.

---------------------------------------------------

So what do I try to do now? I just try to enjoy my life, usually without remembering my philosophy (i.e. I'm not "lucid"). And if something comes up that looks like it's going to send me into depression, I just remember my analogy (to become "lucid) and I can take a breather.

This philosophy also gives the idea that you can create your own dream with its own meaning and purpose. But it's a bit harder than it seems, considering you're typically not in control of your environment, let alone your own belief system.

Let me guess... this is existentialism, isn't it? Yeah... I'm just reinventing the wheel. Whee...

look who found his way back to totse land

Whats your MSN, AIM, or YAHOO Adress?

I notice you've been asking for several people's IM accounts. I'll let you look for mine. Start with this page, and follow the links until you find my e-mail address. Use that to contact me through MSN. I leave it online even when I'm asleep, so keep that in mind if I don't respond.

quote:Originally posted by Clarphimous:

I notice you've been asking for several people's IM accounts. I'll let you look for mine. Start with this page, and follow the links until you find my e-mail address. Use that to contact me through MSN. I leave it online even when I'm asleep, so keep that in mind if I don't respond.

Alright, sounds fun, though I would've just liked it heheh. What links do you mean? All the topics? ALL? Just ones you've started? All your posts?! What links back are we talking about? Hmm...You could tell me what links you mean...on MSN...lol

Come now... I shouldn't have to give you hints. The one on this page is an image link.

quote:Originally posted by Clarphimous:

Come now... I shouldn't have to give you hints. The one on this page is an image link.

*feels special because he found it all by himself*

That's an interesting philosophy, and a lot like my own. You're framed it in a bleaker way than I do, though; I choose to see it as a universe of limitless possibility and diversity. You like to do this, I like to do that, and we can each do our thing while sharing this reality as a whole.

A pretty interesting read...

People care too much about life ,they care too much about how things are ,they care too much about how people think. Very few people care about themselves.

Depression is sometimes caused through not caring abotu yourself. You may care that your girlfriends has just fucked you over for your best friend. You may care that you may not get that nice mark in an exam ,and worry what people think. You might be laughed at cause you're a midget .... on a unicycle.

But what does this matter? Why should other people ,people who you will never actually know anything about ,never truly comphrehend ,never truly feel affect you? These people cannot truly affect you ,the only person that affects you is YOU. Forget people ,accpet there opinions ,mark them on basis of pros and cons ,but never allow yourself to be dominated by people. The only person who you can ever know is yourself ,and too many people try to be like they "know" they should be.

I'm not preaching anti-conformatism. I'm not teachng that you should shun people. I'm opinioning that the only opinion that matters is your own. Ironic ,yes?

In anycase ,That was a pretty good post. I prefer not to label ideas that you come up with yourself as anything ,too many ideas I've had have turned out to be ideas someone else has already had ,and wrote a book about ,and been acclaimed for. Your own beliefs ,no matter what they are affected by , are all that matter.

I've rambled enough ,Good Night.

JesuitArtiste:

Thank you for responding. I would normally try to be nice and not say anything negative about your post since you praised mine, but I'm going to be honest and say I disagree with most of what you said. Simply because of my beliefs. I'm not saying it's completely wrong, I'm saying you're just telling me your ideas which come from your dreams. i.e. your ideas are subjective.

quote:People care too much about life ,they care too much about how things are ,they care too much about how people think. Very few people care about themselves.

It doesn't matter, beyond the ability to satisfy certain goals above others. If you care about yourself, and you have cancer and are going to die in a few days, then it would be advantageous to have others above yourself in importance. That way you may be able to fulfill what you want. That's just an example. It could be applied numerous ways, including the other way around which would support what you said.

quote:Depression is sometimes caused through not caring abotu yourself. You may care that your girlfriends has just fucked you over for your best friend. You may care that you may not get that nice mark in an exam ,and worry what people think. You might be laughed at cause you're a midget .... on a unicycle.

But what does this matter? Why should other people ,people who you will never actually know anything about ,never truly comphrehend ,never truly feel affect you? These people cannot truly affect you ,the only person that affects you is YOU. Forget people ,accpet there opinions ,mark them on basis of pros and cons ,but never allow yourself to be dominated by people. The only person who you can ever know is yourself ,and too many people try to be like they "know" they should be.

Sounds like Epicureanism. It is subjective, not objective. I'll give you a few criticisms so you can understand why.

Depression is certainly not always caused by caring about other people. Read my above statement about having cancer. Whether you will have satisfaction is all dependent on the situation.

As a clinical term, you do not have depression down very good. You can be depressed for no reason aside from having an imbalance of neurotransmitters in your brain. It happens to me often for no reason. In particular, these neurotransmitters are serotonin, dopamine, and norepinephrine (try saying that one 10 times fast). Point being, just being separated emotionally from other people is not going to prevent depression. In fact, it may make it worse. Humans are social creatures, females more than males.

Edit: I realize that this could be viewed as an imperfect lack of empathy, so I'll give a couple other examples. Having empathy and caring for others can actually provide positive experiences, for one. So it is not always negative. The other thing that I'm thinking of is that even if you do not care about others, what others do will still affect you. If everyone hates your guts and you get stoned to death that's not going to be a pleasant experience, whether you care about what they think or not.

Your examples don't seem to prove your point... they seem to be examples of selfishness if you ask me. If your girlfriend fucks you over, that's going to prevent you from sexual satisfaction as well as create a change in lifestyle. I won't bother with the other ones.

People can comprehend what you're going through. But in most cases, in order to do be able to do so, they must first experience it themselves. I can understand how people going through depression feel because I've experienced it myself. Of course, it is not exact. But your knowledge of yourself isn't much better. Your subconscious mind often conceals things from your awareness. You'd be surprised what you don't know about yourself that others do.



Now, on the other hand you have Existentialism which is objective, but it does not have a value system to live by. You can be Existentialist on some level while also having your own value system, like Epicureanism or Marxism or Humanist or whatever you want. The one sentence in all that you said that shows Existentialism is "Your own beliefs ,no matter what they are affected by , are all that matter." I think you just got yourself a little bit confused between the value system and the objects in the value system. Hopefully what I said earlier illustrates what I mean here.

[This message has been edited by Clarphimous (edited 05-27-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Clarphimous:

JesuitArtiste:

Thank you for responding. I would normally try to be nice and not say anything negative about your post since you praised mine, but I'm going to be honest and say I disagree with most of what you said. Simply because of my beliefs. I'm not saying it's completely wrong, I'm saying you're just telling me your ideas which come from your dreams. i.e. your ideas are subjective.

That cool ,I'm pretty sure the point of this place is to disagree with each.. Besides ,we learn by measuring each others opinions.



quote:Depression is certainly not always caused by caring about other people.

As a clinical term, you do not have depression down very good. You can be depressed for no reason aside from having an imbalance of neurotransmitters in your brain.

Admittedly I wan't being that clear here.

I was using it as a general overview of probelms caused by people... The actual clinical depression is a little harder to deal with than just changing your mind about people , but I was referring to perhaps the more social element of peopleand how they react to how others think ,confromity if you will ,on a negaive scale.

quote:Point being, just being separated emotionally from other people is not going to prevent depression. In fact, it may make it worse. Humans are social creatures, females more than males.

I didn't mean that you should seperate yourself from people , in fact quite the opposite. I personally start to get irritable If I'm not around people. You should make sure that you have people around you ,but there ideas about YOU as a person shouldn't take precedent. And while you can take ideas from another person ,if you fit them to Your opinion it does in effect become your idea, regardless of where it came from originally.

And you're analogy of being awake... I get that alot. I can generally ignore it ,but occasionaly I get stricken by the unreality of it all. I walked past a dead bird the other day ,I glanced down at it and it just didn't seem ... real , at all. I then looked at the alive birds, and they too seemed unreal. So ... delicate ,and ... artificial. The lucidity ... escapes me ,But I try not to despair instead I think and reconcile myself with the idea. I look at the people I know and love and think , "What if they are not actually real? What if the world is not actually real? Does this truly affect me?"

The answer comes out as ,"Not unless I let it." Of course I only have to deal with things on an emotional rather than chemical level which could detract from my ability to comment quite as broadly as I am.



quote:Edit: I realize that this could be viewed as an imperfect lack of empathy, so I'll give a couple other examples. Having empathy and caring for others can actually provide positive experiences, for one. So it is not always negative.

I agree entirely, I try to encourage empathy in people around me. The only problem I have is that while I feel I am empathetic I find it hard to talk to people about them ,I try to cheer them up ,but I can't talk them through it ,only try and lighten their view.

quote:The other thing that I'm thinking of is that even if you do not care about others, what others do will still affect you. If everyone hates your guts and you get stoned to death that's not going to be a pleasant experience, whether you care about what they think or not.

Depends how you get stoned to death http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

Sorry ,I had to .. You can't blame me!

But once again I'm more trying to point in analysing what people say ,sorting out the chaff of what they say. You should care about what people think ... just not in a negative way ,everything should be construction of the self. I find that in college I will learn more If my mistakes are pointed out ,yet I don't then think I'm stupid. Instead the error and the new answer lodge in my head. It should be like this with how you react to everything in general (Is used people simply because people are easy). Self growth is the most important thing , in my mind.

quote:Your examples don't seem to prove your point... they seem to be examples of selfishness if you ask me. If your girlfriend fucks you over, that's going to prevent you from sexual satisfaction as well as create a change in lifestyle. I won't bother with the other ones.

Thats fine.

But ...to me selfishness is the point .It is because it affects YOU that something matters. I can see as many adverts about starving little african children as they want to feed me ,yet this doesn't truly rouse me to action. Yet if one of MY friends is upset or in someway unhappy I will try my hardest to make them feel better.

One of my more basic feelings is that even if these people aren't real, they're alive. People who are alive can be unhappy ,anything that is alive can feel pain. Pain is something to be averted ,and unhappiness is infectious. But when I'm nice to someone ,when I support them I do it because the being unhappy makes me uneasy ,and people smiling and being happy makes Me happy. I'll accept all my emotions are selfishly based ,yet can be positive towards others.

quote:People can comprehend what you're going through. But in most cases, in order to do be able to do so, they must first experience it themselves. I can understand how people going through depression feel because I've experienced it myself. Of course, it is not exact. But your knowledge of yourself isn't much better. Your subconscious mind often conceals things from your awareness. You'd be surprised what you don't know about yourself that others do.

This is why I want to grow. This is why I want to experience everything I can. Knowledge isn't gained through books ,it is gained through experience. Comphrehending what someone is feeling is not the same as understanding. To understand you must experience.

And like you say ,there are so many things about ourselves that we do not know. Alot of these things do seem to have been helped along by other people.



quote: The one sentence in all that you said that shows Existentialism is "Your own beliefs ,no matter what they are affected by , are all that matter." I think you just got yourself a little bit confused between the value system and the objects in the value system. Hopefully what I said earlier illustrates what I mean here.

When I said what I said I mean that what you believe affects you. Others may affect you ,but only inchanging the way you believe. If you can control your own belief you can gain control over yourself ...

I'm not entirely sure How clear I've been , I've been jumping from quote to quote adding things at random ,so You'll have to excuse it ,It's not very ordered either. I'll probaly edit it a little later on to try an get it a little clearer.

Have A Nice Day.

Mmm... yeah, that's kind of a messy post. I don't see anything in particular I disagree with. Did you change your opinion any from your earlier post? Or did I just not understand what you were saying?

Anyways, I'm too tired right now to analyze your post. Maybe after you fix it up it'll be easier for me.

quote:Originally posted by Clarphimous:

Mmm... yeah, that's kind of a messy post. I don't see anything in particular I disagree with. Did you change your opinion any from your earlier post? Or did I just not understand what you were saying?

Anyways, I'm too tired right now to analyze your post. Maybe after you fix it up it'll be easier for me.



I was a little unclear before , kind of in a rush at the time .. for no reason other than rushing gives you something to do http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

I need food first ... maybe some coffe ,then I'll probaly go and edit it ... Too damn hungry at the moment to read anything I've written ,It's impossible to read http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

I just read all that, and while some of it might have gone a bit over my head, at least with my first reading, I am going to try and clarify something.

It seems that while both of you feel as though you're disagreeing, it still seems like you have a common thought here.

With the dream analogy, if I understand correctly from your point of view, Clarphimous, is that while we are living our day to day lives, and doing whatever it is that we do, it is like a dream. When we stop to think about the complexities that don't seem to affect everyone, but mainly the more philisophical and religious types, the thinkers moreso than the doers (by which I mean the people that live without really putting much extra thought into it), then we start to gain that lucidity or awareness.

I like to relate it to playing a video game. Another way you can think of it. We have control of our own lives, and the extent to that control is debatable. Some people like to think that they can only do so much, while others believe that some of the conventional limits we set for ourselves are too constricting.

Some people just give up and live life in a 9 to 5 job that they don't even enjoy, and will live from pay check to pay check, possibly getting the occaisional promotion, but never getting into a position of power. Some people strive for more, whether it be financial wealth, or fame, or enlightenment, or just to learn more and to understand things. Different people have different goals in life.

Ok, I really think I'm going off on a tangent here, but what I mean to say is that some of us are more aware than others. Some of us just do, like in a regular dream, while some others try to break out of that particular set path, and create their own dreams. Once we realize that our potential is practically limitless, then we start to see things in a whole new light.

Now where I see a similarity betwen what you and JesuitArtiste are saying, is that when you look at life as a dream, other people become less important.

Not in a bad way. Not in a way where you should just disregard them as merely props or extras in your own dream world. You should still treat other people as though they are like yourself, other people living their own dreams. What they say to you though, shouldn't hold as much weight as some people allow it to.

It really is up to you as to how you view other people. This of course leaves the opportunity for some to just completely take morals into their own relativity. For most people though, it is possible to live in a dream, while not hurting others.

Again, I think I might be going off on a tangent. My point though was that I think that you too might be missunderstanding each other. Since I see a corelation between some of the arguments you make.

That is all.

This is a short conversation I had with gadzooks that may explain where I'm coming from a little better.

[16:07] Clarphimous: it doesn't seem as though anybody is interpreting my analogy like I do

[16:07] Gadzooks: maybe not

[16:07] Gadzooks: :S

[16:08] Clarphimous: I'll try reading through your post again...

[16:09] Clarphimous: it really isn't about who controls our lives or anything like that

[16:09] Gadzooks: maybe I missinterpreted it completely then

[16:10] Clarphimous: I probably didn't give enough detail in my analogy

[16:11] Clarphimous: I have trouble with keeping my sanity. I often lose all sense of reality and meaning and purpose. And that sense of meaning and purpose can change between my mood swings. this analogy is my way of understanding how any of this can be "real."

[16:11] Clarphimous: I used to often break down mentally when I saw a religious person who was incapable of seeing things another way

[16:12] Clarphimous: I'm not sure what it was... it was like they were somehow not fitting into reality

[16:12] Clarphimous: my reality

[16:12] Clarphimous: and so one night I came across my analogy.

[16:12] Clarphimous: and I was able to explain everything that happened with it

[16:12] Clarphimous: oh, I remember what it was

[16:13] Clarphimous: about religious people

[16:13] Clarphimous: I was wondering how they could seem to live in an alternate reality. oblivious to what was going on around them

[16:13] Gadzooks: so your analogy is a way for you to realize that people will have different views and that they can all coincide with each other without cause for conflict? like a live and let live kind of thing?

[16:13] Clarphimous: no

[16:13] Clarphimous: it's just an understanding of *how* people can have different viewpoints

[16:14] Clarphimous: I never said they would get along with each other

[16:14] Clarphimous: it's as if people are living in their own dream worlds

[16:14] Clarphimous: every life its own dream...

[16:14] Clarphimous: like the hunter and the fox

[16:15] Clarphimous: the hunter sees it as a game

[16:15] Clarphimous: a challenge

[16:15] Clarphimous: the fox sees it as torment, a nightmare. fighting for its life

[16:15] Clarphimous: or running, actually

[16:15] Gadzooks: so basically each and every individual has their own perception of reality?

[16:16] Clarphimous: yes

[16:16] Clarphimous: and that perception of reality is the meaning and purpose of life for them

[16:16] Clarphimous: no meaning and purpose exists outside their dream

[16:16] Clarphimous: because all that is outside is emptiness. the empty framework of the universe in which the dreams are based

JesuitArtiste, do you understand what the meaning of my analogy is, now? It's probably something that many atheists believe. It's just put into the form of an analogy so it's easy to get a grasp on some sort of reality.

Clarphimous, I have to say I can relate to you on some points. For one thing I was also depressed, seemingly from nothing so it was proposed I go on anti-depressents. I refused and things got worse. I took one week to sort things out and really got down to the things that were subconcously bothering me and, got over them. I can't explain how, but I just let go. "Losing all hope was freedom" - Fight Club

Since then I've had my problems, as well as a few breakdowns, but I have never considered suicide, or hurting myself for any reason since after that week.

Another thing I can relate on is the dreaming, I am a very vivid dreamer, and occasionally have lucid dreams, and weird states of mind since I was about 5. I took out the actual experiances I had typed because after rereading them they are very personal. Also lookup binereal beats, has to do with brain waves.

I'd like to add triggers can send you into depression, but you will hopefully one day control that so nothing sends you into depression. You are in control of your emotions for the most part. Right now you may not be able to control what makes you depressed, but you can control how long that feeling of depression lasts. Repetitive negative thought patterns have to end. In referance to the chemical balance problems, it could be subconcous negative thoughts, or if it is actual imbalance, then I suggest taking St. Johns wart. I took it, didn't find it enjoyable because it is a mild SSRI and MOA or something like that, so it gave me a numb feeling. I didn't have to change my diet so it is safe. It will reduce the spectrum of negative emotions you can feel making them more manageble. It did help during difficult times but I have never taken it more than 4 days in a row, due to the lack of feeling. On the plus side it possibly stoped me from doing anything I would later regret and now even without it I think most things through 100% better than before. All in all you can live your life to the fullest with your brain the way it is, just change your thought patterns, your philosophy isn't bad but it will change as the way you see things change. I ramble when I am tired. Also that is probibly my only depression trigger, however extremely mild, that I still occasionally have, is triggered by lack of sleep. Exersise, change your diet, try different things till you find what works for you, and you won't fall back into "the hole" as I call it, because that describes depression better than anything I can think of. Dark hole that you have to get out of to see the light (think clearly again)

Good luck, and Good night.

[This message has been edited by Aft3r ImaGe (edited 05-31-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Clarphimous:

JesuitArtiste, do you understand what the meaning of my analogy is, now? It's probably something that many atheists believe. It's just put into the form of an analogy so it's easy to get a grasp on some sort of reality.

Yeah ,Thats made it clearer. I kinda had it from the beginning but then I looked to far into some parts ,skimmed other others and then broke off into an ignore people moment.

When I first read it I was kinda thinking it was a way of living life... But is it more of a way at looking at life to understand it? And understanding that others have there own thoughts because of their belief in their dream?

The transcript helped alot , and re-reading the first post... I Hope I have it now ,or at least I'm putting down what I feel it is rightly. If nothing else it seems to fit a certain way into my dream http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

quote:When I first read it I was kinda thinking it was a way of living life... But is it more of a way at looking at life to understand it? And understanding that others have there own thoughts because of their belief in their dream?

Exactly. I couldn't have said it better.

By the way, if you want to see how nuts I can get, go see my "Chatterbox" thread in Spurious Generalities...

http://www.totse.com/bbs/Forum3/HTML/247207.html

Yeah. That sort of thing is why I need something to help keep my sanity. It wasn't so bad when I started the thread, but then I started to really lose it as I went along. This isn't really evident from what I said, but after I stopped I was hyperventilating and pacing around for a while, and then I started contemplating how I'd commit suicide.

But I'm fine now. Calmed down... took a Benadryl. Or two. I think I just took one. I can't remember.

I need to get some sleep...

To After Image, it's not just depression... but thanks for the advice. Not sure if I'll use it, since I already am working with something. Agh... I'll think about it later.

Sleepy time.

quote:Originally posted by Clarphimous:

Exactly. I couldn't have said it better.

By the way, if you want to see how nuts I can get, go see my "Chatterbox" thread in Spurious Generalities...

http:/ /www.totse .com/bbs/F orum3/HTML/247207.html (http: //www.tots e.com/bbs/ Forum3/HTM L/247207.h tml)

Yeah. That sort of thing is why I need something to help keep my sanity. It wasn't so bad when I started the thread, but then I started to really lose it as I went along. This isn't really evident from what I said, but after I stopped I was hyperventilating and pacing around for a while, and then I started contemplating how I'd commit suicide.

But I'm fine now. Calmed down... took a Benadryl. Or two. I think I just took one. I can't remember.

I need to get some sleep...

To After Image, it's not just depression... but thanks for the advice. Not sure if I'll use it, since I already am working with something. Agh... I'll think about it later.

Sleepy time.



I kinda used to get like that ,the pacing ,the walking wondering how many miles I've walked in the last 6 feet , how many miles more I can walk. Why it matters etc. Not any more.

I don't spose you write stuff down when you feel like that? Like in the chatterbox thread ,but in a book or something?

It's suprising what comes out .. It can be interesting even after you've wrote it yourself.

Have A Nice day

I deleted the thread. It was making me feel sick that I told them all that stuff. I feel better now.

quote:Originally posted by Clarphimous:

I deleted the thread. It was making me feel sick that I told them all that stuff. I feel better now.

I found it pretty iteresting .. It read well ...

Damn. I feel jilted. I was searching for the thread, Clarphimous http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

I saved it on my hard drive. E-mail me if you want it.