The vast majority of people on this planet believe in some sort of god/gods/godesses. I do not. Even in the United States, a Gallup poll suggests that 96% of this country believes in God [1 (http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_poll3.htm)]. I do not. I am an Atheist.

There are a lot of misconceptions about Atheists and Atheism in the United States. This is demonstrated by the fact that Atheists are the most distrusted minority in the nation [2 (http://tinyurl.com/qvy3t)]. This is a most disturbing fact and I would like to clear up any misconceptions or answer any questions regarding this lack of belief.

I think one of the problems in the US is that people think atheists are just doing it to be 'rebellious', as if any kind of free thought is only done in order to be rebellious (not that theists can't be free thinkers, but theism isn't necessarily born of free thought because in most places it is the status quo).

A good way to perpetuate that view is to make atheism seem dogmatic by capitalising the word http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif).

I think another problem is that Christians seem to have with us that 'atheists don't have any sense of morals', which is usually not true, since any sensible person can see morals are necessary in order to live in a society, and living in a society benefits us, so morals ultimately are for our own benefit. Also, most atheists believe that Christian morals or any other religious moral systems were created to keep people moral at a time when they weren't so likely to see how it would benefit them otherwise. This is why some Christian morals seem out-of-date, like the rule of not having sex before marriage, whereas atheist, relativist morals are by their nature what seems best for society, so we see that since the advent of good contraception the best stance on sex before marriage is to tell people how to do it safely.

I like atheism, many philosiphers(sp?) spawn from atheism. IMO it brings a balance to the world. But DO NOT try to convert me. I very much dislike the arrogant atheist.

Atheists can't convert people. The most we can do is get you asking questions and promote intellectual integrity in answering those questions.

edit: Speaking of atheist morality, which do you guys (fellow atheist) support: objective or relative morality? I feel morality can be objective(definitive) while not being absolute(dogmatic). You're thoughts?

[This message has been edited by Elephantitis Man (edited 05-23-2006).]

What would you say keeps you "moral"? How does this fare with close minded bible thumpers that insites that you are a bad person and immoral because you don't fear their God?

[This message has been edited by Q777 (edited 05-23-2006).]

Morality is a concept created to help mankind maintain a functional society and achieve the highest possible level of happiness. As such, it is objective, firstly because the requirements for a functional society are objective. Secondly, because what makes an individual happy is based on human nature which is objective. I understand that people are different, but (barring pathological cases) on the basic level we are all the same when it comes to what makes us happy.

So, morality really is objective, but its source is society and human nature (which makes perfect sense, since it is those things that it's supposed to serve). A morality that comes from a supernatural source cannot be objective, and cannot even be called a morality. It's not objective because there's no trustworthy interpretation of the supernatural entity's supposed wishes. This is obvious when you look at the huge number of religions, cults, denominations etc. There is simply no objectivity in choosing one supernatural morality over the other. Moreover, morality loses its purpose when it serves an external, mysterious being whose wishes have no justification. When people choose this kind of morality which serves this being and not humanity, they easily treat others immorally.

Of course, this does not mean that morality is an absolute, unchanging entity. Society evolves, humans evolve, and so must morality. At any possible moment, morality can be objectively derived. At any different moment, morality can be different but still objective.

A Conversation with an Atheist:

Abrahim says:

So what did you expect to talk to me about when you originally messaged me?

.com.au says:

I dunno, metaphysics

Abrahim says:

what are you beliefs? what about metaphysics?

.com.au says:

well I'm an atheist

Abrahim says:

but you believe in Reality right? You arent one of those guys who say they "might not exist" right?

.com.au says:

well define reality

Abrahim says:

like this...you me, screen, hand

.com.au says:

of course I believe in an external reality

Abrahim says:

yeah

.com.au says:

I just don't subscribe to that reality such anthropomorphic qualities as sapience

Abrahim says:

what is sapience?

.com.au says:

the abillity to think often confused with sentience which is the abillity to feel pain

Abrahim says:

sa·pi·ent ( P ) Pronunciation Key (sp-nt)

adj.

Having great wisdom and discernment.

sapience

n : ability to apply knowledge or experience or understanding or common sense and insight

well we have sapience

some of us lol

sen·tience ( P ) Pronunciation Key (snshns, -sh-ns)

n.

The quality or state of being sentient; consciousness.

Feeling as distinguished from perception or thought.

So you don't believe in the consciousness of Reality?

.com.au says:

no anymore than I believe in the conciousness of a canvas or text editor

Abrahim says:

what paints the canvas and edits the text? I believe the "consciousness" if any, in Reality can be seen in everything, that fact that we are alive and able to function and move and everything is moving, that if Reality or what we Exist within was dead, or unscious, nothing would exist, or move, or happen

.com.au says:

but it's a backdrop

Abrahim says:

yeah its the background I mean its what everything exists withing within

.com.au says:

yeah

Abrahim says:

what everything is made of what everything is connected to what allows the rain to fall, the planets to orbit (yes there are there foremost reasons such as gravity and all that but I mean as a Backdrop it is what provides all possibilities available for us to think or do, if the possibility is unavailable we cant do it or think it even) That Reality is the most powerful thing, what has everything within it, within its "control" in a sense. That there is No God or Controller within it, it is self sufficient the most massive and infinite, the only thing worthy to submit to

.com.au says:

I dunno about that to submit to it it must have sapience or a will

Abrahim says:

why? Submit to Reality. whats the big deal about that?

.com.au says:

if it has no desires, they cannot be fufilled

Abrahim says:

im talking about us

.com.au says:

well what do you mean

Abrahim says:

you and me, Reality the backdrop to all things. Submitting to it is becoming one with it, one with oneself, being humble. not thinking you are beyond what is real, living truth

.com.au says:

well I don't that's why I'm a materialist as in the mind thing take that descartes

Abrahim says:

I think therefor I am?

.com.au says:

naw ghost in the machine

Abrahim says:

which one is that? I just know about the Anime lol

.com.au says: htt p://en.wik ipedia.org/wiki/Dualism_%28philosophy_of_mind%29 (http: //en.wikip edia.org/w iki/Dualis m_%28philo sophy_of_m ind%29)

Abrahim says:

what is it in summary?

.com.au says:

In the philosophy of mind, dualism is a set of views about the relationship between mind and matter, which begins with the claim that mental phenomena are, in some respects, non-physical. [1]

Abrahim says:

hehe yes

Abrahim says:

In philosophy, materialism is that form of physicalism which holds that the only thing that can truly be said to exist is matter; that fundamentally, all things are composed of material. ok BUT what is a thought composed of? like the thoughts going through your head now

its not made of matter, nor is it made of matter, if you superimpose, with your mind and imagination, an image onto the wall, say a dragon, I dont think its made of matter, but its there, that imagination, that imaginary image

.com.au says:

electrical pulses neurons and all that

Abrahim says:

those are the pulses, yeah but those are its own things, electrical pulses are electrical pulses

.com.au says:

I suppose it's rather reductionist

Abrahim says:

from what matter is that imagination made of? what you see in your imagination?

.com.au says:

but you asked me what it's made out of not what it is there is a substantial difference

Abrahim says:

I asked what a thought is composed of, you answered electrical impulses and neurons and all that, but I meant what is that super imposed image on the wall of the dragon in your imagination, and I mean the actual image there, what it is composed of, that the electrical impulses and neurons ALLOW you to think it, and see it, and experience it, but the electrical impulses are only electrical impulses, from what MATTER is that imaginary image composed, and I mean the actual image, not its root cause

.com.au says:

what do you mean your asking me to apply reductionist thinking to a holistic concept

Abrahim says:

im just asking a question lol whats your thought on that?

.com.au says:

well quite simply I ask you what the book '1984' is made out of you reply paper and ink I say that that is unacceptable because I'm asking what the characters and story of 1984 is made of and it's not made up of anything because it's a holistic concept but if we want to break it down we'll find that what gives it form is paper and ink and without it manifesting in paper and ink the characters, the story, would not exist

Abrahim says:

Matter is commonly defined as the substance of which physical objects are composed. It constitutes the observable Universe. I do not believe it is what "Only" exists rather that, There is the Observable, and the Unobservable.

.com.au says:

matter's the only thing that exists in external reality or the physical world

Abrahim says:

Some things Unobservable can be manifested through the manipulation of materials. In my Definition of Reality, as a Whole, are included The Physical and the Non Physical. Everything you can possibly DO, or THINK.

.com.au says:

define un observable

Abrahim says:

being an available option or else it wouldnt be able to happen unobservable are your thoughts, I mean your actual thoughts, like the dragon on the wall

.com.au says:

those are observable

Abrahim says:

no not the content they arent

.com.au says:

the processes are observable, the compositions is observable and the images are observable as well as what causes them

Abrahim says:

what? how are? if you superimpose in your imagination a dragon on the wall who else can see that?

.com.au says:

nobody but I can still observe it and wonder why I'm thinking about it

Abrahim says:

that dragon is not matter the dragon itself

.com.au says:

I never said it was

Abrahim says:

but it exists

.com.au says:

not really

Abrahim says:

yes really it exists within reality

.com.au says:

it doesn't exist in objective reality and it won't until I draw it and make it manifest using physical tools

Abrahim says:

but in Reality as a whole, which you and the dragon and the possibility for you to think and see the dragon exist so it is a part of Reality as a whole. which you belong to

.com.au says:

the dragon doesn't exist objectively it only exists inside my mind

Abrahim says:

im talking about REALITY as a whole, which whatever can possibly happen inside your mind can happen because reality allows it to happen its a part of reality the whole

.com.au says:

so both subjective and objective?

Abrahim says:

Im saying Reality encompasses ALL, subjective, objective, what you think, what you do, what you see what is here what is there, what is inside your "mind" and what happens with your brain

.com.au says:

mmhmm

Abrahim says:

Reality is not ONLY composed of Matter, it encompasses what is tangible and testable, physical and material, and what is not.

.com.au says:

well if you wish to define it as such I'm not going to disagree with you

Abrahim says:

hehe kl what else would you call it? Rather than reality?

.com.au says:

the total sum of subjective thought processes combined with all physical existence

Abrahim says:

Reality is what all that we know and don't yet know and may never know exists within, what all possible things that can possibly exist, exist within, what possibilities have not happened but can happen exist within, what all possible thoughts you can possibly think exist within

it encompasses everything absolutely everything and that is just our reality

.com.au says:

well if you wish to define it as such I won't disagree with you

Abrahim says:

lol k Reality in everyday usage means "everything that exists". The term reality, in its widest sense, includes everything that is, whether it is observable, accessible or understandable by science, philosophy, or any other system of analysis. Reality in this sense may include both being and nothingness, whereas existence is often restricted to being (compare with nature).

.com.au says:

yeah I can agree with that

Abrahim says:

yay so thats what I believe in too that it is the ultimate thing the most "powerful" people say they would call a big thing coming from the sky God but I wouldnt, because if something big came from the sky, it would still be smaller and within Reality the possibility for it to exist even etc etc whatever variations. The only God, The most powerful thing, The thing which allows us to do what we can do and think is Reality. It is not some man controlling us in the sky, but what we've discussed

.com.au says:

so you define god as the total sum of all thought processes combined with all things in existence but concious

Abrahim says:

concious in the way that Reality is active or else there wouldnt be this

.com.au says:

k I suppose we can avoid an entire minefield by avoiding anthropomorphizing this backdrop? by not

Abrahim says:

could you elaborate on that? whatcha mean?

.com.au says:

well as you define reality can we avoid giving it preference? that is, reality is impartial to all forms of actions, thoughts and emotions, basically what I'm trying to say is can we exclude reality as you define it from having one dominant preference that isn't part of what the thinkers prefer

Abrahim says:

Reality allows everything we are capable of doing or thinking each

.com.au says:

right

Abrahim says:

its preference is what is under dispute if it has any

.com.au says:

but we aren't going to anthropomorphize it right?

Abrahim says:

just as soon as we do open war begins lol

.com.au says:

that is assume that in thinks like a human it

Abrahim says:

it doesnt think like a human a guarantee

.com.au says:

cool

Abrahim says:

but perhaps our creations have intentions I mean, penis for vagina etc even though the penis can go in the ear

.com.au says:

I dunno yeah

Abrahim says:

its not intended for that

.com.au says:

but it can

Abrahim says:

it allows it

.com.au says:

maybe anatomy is less the result of intention as it is the result of maximum survival advantage

Abrahim says:

I dont believe in a human consciousness that sits around thinking like us and making intentions, I know that the possibilities for our evolution were limited what I mean to say is all the conditions in reality the possibilities that played

.com.au says:

yeah

Abrahim says:

allowed for us to happen this way

.com.au says:

of course

Abrahim says:

but that there are no strange oddities that I know of in the system such as me suddenly talking to you then you totally dissapearing from where you are without moving etc etc like gaps or anything, nothing we are aware of at least, meaning it limited the options for this reality of ours

.com.au says:

we could say that there is only one option

Abrahim says:

it didnt let the possibility of all possibilities to play at once

.com.au says:

go all deterministic

Abrahim says:

yeah im not sure, I mean I dont want to give murderers excuses lol

.com.au says:

just because something happens doesn't mean it's right I mean hell, nature is full of disease, pestilence, famine corruption and destruction

Abrahim says:

what would be most "wrong" is in a dynsfunction or broken system

.com.au says:

doesn't mean any of these things are right

Abrahim says:

but I think those are part

.com.au says:

just means they happen

Abrahim says:

they certainly arent bad in my opinion but factors which have so far, or seemingly, kept the balance of things

.com.au says:

yeah the important thing is that it's a bitch to find a pattern in nature or intent in nature we could almost say that it has no intent reality that is now, to find out possible reasons why freak occurences aren't occuring

Abrahim says:

well the only intent I see is in that it exists, that it is active, and that it is FUNCTIONING properly, with no glitches, it is smooth.

.com.au says:

I posit various laws of physics to explain this phenomona

Abrahim says:

well yes those are part of reality but I am aware that it has not allowed the possibility for all possibilities to play at once, or the possibility for GLITCHES or GLITCHES that we can observe or test such as...blip the computer screen is gone suddenly WTFs etc lol so in that sense it is very smooth and is not wild or chaotic as some claim which brings us back to its "conciousness" and design, only visible in its limitations for our reality. its lack of glitches and chaos

.com.au says:

hmm well a good explanation would be that it is self-contained and unreachable by anything outside

Abrahim says:

well in my opinion there is absolutely nothing but Absolute Ultimate Reality, we being just part of it, this universe being a portion but not the whole who knows how many other possibilities completely different

.com.au says:

maybe but plurality should not be posited unnecessarily

Abrahim says:

whatcha mean?

.com.au says:

okkams razor: all other things being equal, choose the explanation that makes the least unfounded assumptions

Abrahim says:

oh I dont know if its unfounded to say our reality is limited, controlled, unchaotic(no glitches)

.com.au says:

I never said it wasn't

Abrahim says:

yep

.com.au says:

I'm saying it's unfounded to submit other worlds that are in effect, un observable and unverifiable

Abrahim says:

oh ok yeah I was just stating for some food for thought

Abrahim says:

lol

.com.au says:

so this could be the only possible world but that leaves little room for choice

Abrahim says:

we dont know about the others, We will never know about other Realities within the Ultimate Reality.

.com.au says:

yeah

Abrahim says:

We do have a whole gamut of options at any moment, we can perform one, rather like a snapshot of multiple tasks at once but I mean its one frame.

.com.au says:

as we cannot verify the existence of other realities we'll just apply okkams razor and say that they do not exist for the present

Abrahim says:

one frame at a time, every moment

.com.au says:

if we find any evidence at all that they do exist we'll rethink that statement

Abrahim says:

we cant how can you?

patthe1@optusnet.com.au says:

no idea

Abrahim says:

another reality is beyond the possibility of existing within this reality or processing

.com.au says:

kind of a bitch aint it?

Abrahim says:

if we are able to process it then it is part of this reality.

.com.au says:

yeah

Abrahim says:

in any case what is for sure is there is one Ultimate Reality to which we, and what we know, and what we can do possibly and think possibly, exist within.

.com.au says:

yeah and that reality is expanding all the time

Abrahim says:

I say rather that the universe is expanding and that Reality is stable. our Reality is Stable, the universe being within Reality, the Universe expanding.

.com.au says:

yeah but the range of what we can think and do is getting bigger all the time

Abrahim says:

but I do believe those possibilities were ALWAYS available to us, that no "new" possibilities are added. That at the time no humans existed, the possibility for massive towering structures made by "humans" did exist or any other creature that may have appeared who knows the possibility possibilities yes our range of understanding is growing constantly and stuff like that but the possibilities, what is possible, have been part of this reality always none being added, subtracted in the sense that once a possibility is performed in that frame no other possibilities can be performed that frame is past that moment click click click and within the possibilities are a whole gamut of thoughts we can possibly think, some of which some of us have already thought

.com.au says:

so other realities can be discerned by a simple game of "what if"

Abrahim says:

Ultimate Reality is one, Our Reality is also one but is part of Ultimate Reality, I do not know if other Realities and universes or possibilities exist that we will never be aware of since our reality can not process or connect to it but all belong within the Jurisdiction of Ultimate Reality which is essentially All there is and Every Was and All that can possibly Be.

.com.au says:

which encompasses all possible scenarios

Abrahim says:

yep

.com.au says:

and manifests itself in our reality

Abrahim says:

what does?

.com.au says:

ultimate reality

Abrahim says:

yes our specific Reality is made of Ultimate Reality, Existing Within Ultimate Reality, is one of the possibilities clearly Encompassed by Ultimate Reality, How do we know? Because here we are.

.com.au says:

right

Abrahim says:

Also within the possibilities of Reality are you and me having this conversation, and human religions all of them, those that exist, and do not exist, and all potential concepts of a "God"

.com.au says:

except logically contradictory attributes which are of course, impossible

Abrahim says:

yeah but the possibility for people to think of them, write them, accept them, imagine them and all that etc etc and I personally think these ideas about Reality are not entirely new or alien to history but rather that people have thought it, realized it, some even explained it, others misunderstood it, and made concepts that were humanized to make others understand, metaphors, which later ended up degrading the essential message, people

.com.au says:

kinda sucks

Abrahim says:

yeah lol Most people religious, and some non religious, say they image or would accept a God that is within Reality which to me would mean it is limited, and nothing is beyond Ultimate Reality

.com.au says:

right

Abrahim says:

so that Ultimate Reality is the highest thing, the ONLY thing essentially when you get right down to it

Abrahim says:

The True One.

.com.au says:

yeah

Abrahim says:

So the question comes, does Ultimate reality communicate with what is within it? It is "Alive" in the sense that we are alive and functioning and that everything is in constant motion. But does it communicate with us? How can we ever know if it does? It certainly can not Communicate with us as you and I communicate with each other, it lacks any form and is what we are within, it is beyond us. What it CAN do is allow for people to concieve of the possibility of its existence and for people to, to some degree, comprehend it

.com.au says:

mm so god exists because I can conceive it?

Abrahim says:

Ultimate Reality exists even if you can't concieve of it as a thought

.com.au says:

right

Abrahim says:

and there are a whole bunch of Gods a practically infinite number of possibilities we can think of as Gods

.com.au says:

so

Abrahim says:

the only True God in my Opinion being what all those possibilities are within, Ultimate Reality.

.com.au says:

so all that there is, was, and can possibly be that is god right?

Abrahim says:

yeah, what we've discussed as Ultimate Reality, what has our Reality within it, and our Universe and what everything is made of and all that

.com.au says:

cool

Abrahim says:

that we are all part of the same thing but just part we are not the whole of it and essentially there is no break in it, its all one whole

.com.au says:

well yours is certainly not the god of philosophers or abraham

Abrahim says:

im not sure about that

.com.au says:

well they assume a somewhat limited god at least abraham did with the jealousy and the burning bush's and all that crazy jazz

Abrahim says:

lol yeah if what is written is true, I am uncertain about those things origins I mean to say if Abraham, if he existed, what he thought himself or what he was told what I know is that its been a long time since then long in our terms at least

.com.au says:

yeah

Abrahim says:

and that alot has probably been altered in re writings and with misunderstandings

.com.au says:

yeah

Abrahim says:

for all I know, the real Abraham couldve been talking about the same God as me and humans simply misunderstood in retellings or the story or to make it easier to understand for other people simply made the God more humanized especially for translations and in language shifts I tried to explain this to a person who spoke english in Norway but they could not at all comprehend what I was saying lol so to explain it in a humanized way might have been easier etc even though I personally didnt. It is a possibility within Reality that some can come to this understanding and attempt to assist others to learn, or that one might be in a form of "direct" communication through "inspiration" its our mind doing the work and the processing of all the info, its the info within reality to decipher if it is true or not is left to us what we accept as true possibly is within the jurisdiction of Reality. Can Ultimate Reality aka God manifest its entire self in something? No, not more than it already is everything, everything made of it, everything a manifestion within reality. so that dispels any God within Reality.

.com.au says:

any special thing

Abrahim says:

can it communicate? Yes, in a sense of inspiration of truth, the human does the thinking, the possibility provided by ultimate reality.

.com.au says:

the burning bush story assumed that god was outside of it all

Abrahim says:

in the case of Moses he was apparently the only one whom manifested as part of his "inspiration" an actual voice all possible "miracles" are within the realm of physics and reality still I dont think there has ever been a miracle so absurd or out of wack like a person just dissapearing zapped out of existance lol its always something within reality, something possible, something capable of happening physically and existing within reality

.com.au says:

yeah

Abrahim says:

If they happened or not, I wasn't there what is written so far and accepted by many are things that are always within physical limits and possibilities for the most part I do believe true prophets, "inspired" if their true texts and what originally was given and all that, I do believe they preach this in what way they can but also made in a way that one can understand inspiration not coming in the form of a series of digits 45923=4-59=3-592=592=591=-924=194=19 or whatever but clearly in a form that the individual himself and the people around him can understand because it was the persons mind doing the work the processing, the computing, the speaking, the possibility was Ultimate Realities, as we can not manifest or create anything, nor can we produce possibilities that were not already there so the ultimate credit of the inspiration goes to Ultimate Reality "God" though the person did the physical work of it the thinking, and maybe not so directly thinking or trying to think

.com.au says:

yeah

Abrahim says:

but the speaking, the processing and all that

.com.au says:

but that's like saying the credit for mona lisa goes to red, blue, yellow and canvas and because viewing it in unfiltered form is rather plain

Abrahim says:

the Credit for the Mona Lisa goes ultimate to Ultimate Reality, which allowed the possibility for his hands to move, the image to appear that way and the paint to settle that way, his mind to think the thoughts it thought and the possibility of the name Mona Lisa and all the other factors that went into it

.com.au says:

right

Abrahim says:

but the artist did the processing and the work and toiled and all that and made it some might Thank God for it, that wouldnt be so far from appropriate, hehehe if they understand at least

.com.au says:

yeah

Abrahim says:

I honestly dont believe that the prophets sat there and thought it out and then claimed it was inspiration so much as a kind of clear consciousness "inspiration" which can be translated as "communication" but rather "understanding"

.com.au says:

I mean the canvas and thr primary colours of dye granted the possibility of the mona lisa happening

Abrahim says:

yep

.com.au says:

but da-vinci made it stand out

Abrahim says:

and the ultimate reality granted the possibility for Da Vinci to make it stand out

.com.au says:

right damn you and your linguistic trickery

Abrahim says:

what would be a word for me? to describe me based on what you have experienced with me so far?

.com.au says:

zen on LSD

Abrahim says:

hahaha good one I like that

"

When I say Reality, I mean Reality as in everything that exists, our reality, included is what we can possibly do, all our options, and what we can possibly think or imagine too. If the possibility for us to think something didn't exist, we could never concieve the thought. Reality is what all the options we know, and those we do not yet know, all the possibilities exist within. It is Physical, and it is Non Physical, it is what was before, what is now, what is to possibly come after. It is the perfect system in which we exist, completely smooth in its movement and motion. It was what our Reality, Universe exists within, it is the Ultimate Reality, that is God. In that sense it is in control of absolutely everything since it is what manifested all the possibilities we have, it is the plain in which the universe can exist, and nothing can exist without reality. Reality is the base, self sufficient, without it, nothing would have ever happened or be available to happen. If it were "dead" or non existant, so too would we be non existant, nothing can only provide nothing, only nothing can exist within nothing, something can not come from nothing. Reality is the base, it has always existed, and will always exist, it is infinite, all encompassing, everything is made of it and within it, completely dependant on it, any other "God" is a false God, it is the ONE, the True."

Jsaxton... You listen to Leykis, don't you?

quote:Originally posted by Experimental:

Jsaxton... You listen to Leykis, don't you?

I have in the past. However, I wasn't a big fan and stopped listening. Granted, his show inspired the title of this thread. However, the thread itself was inspired by Jaryohem063's recent thread "Here to answer anyone's question's about mormonism... Except digital_savior."

quote:Originally posted by Q777:

What would you say keeps you "moral"? How does this fare with close minded bible thumpers that insites that you are a bad person and immoral because you don't fear their God?



Generally, I simply treat others like I would like to be treated. I generally try to make people happy and try to not piss people off (although there are exceptions to this). If someone needs help, I generally do my best to help them. I don't judge people based on their beliefs or life choices (I am friends with many "fundamentalists," uber-conservatives, and homosexuals).

My sense of morality comes from a number of places. Firstly, my parents greatly influenced my sense of morality. They taught me wrong from right. Thankfully, rather than stating, for example, "lying is wrong God says so" they taught me "How would you like it if I lied to you?". Also, my sense of empathy (which most humans have) compells me to treat my neighbor as myself. My morality does not come from any sort of divine being or teachings inspired by such.

I would consider moral standards relative. As society changes, the way we interact with one another changes as well. For example, long ago it would have been completely moral to banish someone from a city if they had a lethal/contagious disease. Today I would deem the same actions immoral.

I'll be honest, I've derived my own set of moral values. I'm not perfect, and my set of moral values probably isn't perfect either. However, they are certainly better than the moral standards presented in the Bible. The Bible teaches us that a father can sell his daughter into slavery [1 (http://www.gospelcom.net/bible?Exodus+21:7-11)], homosexuals should be put to death [2 (http://tinyurl.com/p3qyv)], those who slaughter infants are blessed 3 (http://tinyurl.com/frdr4)], we should take an "eye for an eye" [4 (http://tinyurl.com/qauxk)], and that's just off the top of my head. These are not moral actions.

I feel that the world would be far better off if people did likewise while exercizing some common sense. Atrocities such as the Inquisition, Crusades, and witch hunts (which continue to this day in the name of the Christian God) would have been prevented.

Edit: pwned by UBB

[This message has been edited by jsaxton14 (edited 05-24-2006).]

Abrahim: I would recommend you read the book Godel Escher Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid by Douglas R. Hofstadter. Essentially, he attempts to define consciousness. A very challenging but enlightening read.

Amazon Link (http://tinyurl.com/m8gzm)

Jsaxton, the only reason that I ask about Leykis is that what you say in your post is almost a reflection of one of his knew "Ask the Athiests".

He shoots down every argument. Master debator.

Anyway... I went to this church down the street of my house once, and we split into small groups. I'm an athiest and always have been. In these groups we discussed our faith. I simply said that I was an athiest, and everyone turned away in shame. A girl cried, saying "but you're such a good person!"... Twice after that I was run off the church grounds.

Christians seem to be generally close minded.

I think atheism is totally the way to go- notice that most people who are not influenced by their parents' or community's religion become atheists or agnostics. To me that suggests that it is more rational and even "natural" to be an atheist.

What really piss me off are those religious folks who are all patronizing about atheists as if they are somehow lacking something. "You mean you don't believe in god?!?!?!?!? That's weird..."

quote:Originally posted by jsaxton14:

The vast majority of people on this planet believe in some sort of god/gods/godesses. I do not. Even in the United States, a Gallup poll suggests that 96% of this country believes in God [1 (http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_poll3.htm)]. I do not. I am an Atheist.

There are a lot of misconceptions about Atheists and Atheism in the United States. This is demonstrated by the fact that Atheists are the most distrusted minority in the nation [2 (http://tinyurl.com/qvy3t)]. This is a most disturbing fact and I would like to clear up any misconceptions or answer any questions regarding this lack of belief.

I think people don't tell the truth on Polls, 96% of people believe in God? Wowza. Well almost every person I met on the netterweb was an Athiest, I thought it was the most common, and around the world. But that's interesting if 96% of people actually believe in God, I never got that impression from people.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

I think people don't tell the truth on Polls, 96% of people believe in God? Wowza. Well almost every person I met on the netterweb was an Athiest, I thought it was the most common, and around the world. But that's interesting if 96% of people actually believe in God, I never got that impression from people.

Well, you don't exactly have a true cross section of the population. You're talking to people who post in a forum in which their beliefs are generally challenged. Most people, believe it or not, never challenge their beliefs.

I dislike the fact that Athiests are just cynics that don't want to believe anything they can't see. Everything has to be logical. Thats why I fucking hate scientists.

quote:Originally posted by diehard993:

I dislike the fact that Athiests are just cynics that don't want to believe anything they can't see. Everything has to be logical. Thats why I fucking hate scientists.

A massively increased life expectancy, improved quality of life and far greater power over nature is totally not worth a system of thought that only seeks to find the truth. Unfalsifiable religious dogma is far superior.

Jackass

If there's no god, where do rainbows come from?

Yeah, you'll probably just come up with some bullshit "scientific" answer.

quote:Originally posted by Viraljimmy:

If there's no god, where do rainbows come from?

Yeah, you'll probably just come up with some bullshit "scientific" answer.

Bullshit "scientific" answer? You mean that rainbows come when light mixes w/ rain? That's not bullshit, it's fact.

Just because science proves things doesn't mean God doesn't exist. Fighting rationality is idiotic. Also, there are some things that science and history do prove. Go watch the history channel if you don't believe me. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

Personally, the only thing that annoys me about Atheism is the fact that there are things, like sayings and statues, that have "religious meaning" that have been up for decades, nobody caring, when it suddenly "offends an Atheist." It's a STATUE. People offend, but a statue? Can't you use your argumentative talents for something... useful?

Otherwise, I personally don't care, and anyone who says "You don't believe in God?" (btw, I'm Catholic, so I do believe in a higher pwr, but I like this answer, lol), turn and say, "Well, I had an imaginary friend, but I grew out of it."

Who the hell get offended by statues?

Except for curators when they finally notice 'made in taiwan' writen on the back...

Ok, I have a question for atheists. Most atheists believe that the universe is infinite and random, ie that the universe exists on an infinite time scale and physical forces do not have a creative force behind them. But getting into probability, in a random universe that goes on infinitely anything could happen, will happen, and will happen an infinite number of times. An infinite time period allows for an infinite number of possibilities. This validates many religious principles, such as reincarnation, and the likelyhood that there is possibly a "god" force existing at this time. In a random universe, I could experience this exact life once again in the future, right down to the position of the hairs on my head... it could be a trillion years from now, but in a universe that goes on forever, it will happen again. How do you, as atheists, consolidate this into your views.

Also, how to explain the extremely low levels of entropy that seem to exist on an atomic and subatomic scale?

Niceguy, the whole spiel about the "Pledge of Allegience," about the statues in front of courtrooms, and things like that were caused by--you guessed it! Atheists saying that "they were being discriminated against."

Like I've said, I don't care about what you do/don't worship, I just think it's dumb wasting time caring about statues and sayings and stupid things. What next? "Our money says 'In God We Trust', and it offends me"?

Then again, maybe the museum curators will find something hidden from China in our money. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Viraljimmy:

If there's no god, where do rainbows come from?

Yeah, you'll probably just come up with some bullshit "scientific" answer.

HAHHAHAAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH

As opposed to digging out my bible and finding the section in which it explains how whenever rainbows form it's God being happy after smiting some dumb-shits and making the world a better place...

/die.

quote:Originally posted by Viraljimmy:

If there's no god, where do rainbows come from?

Yeah, you'll probably just come up with some bullshit "scientific" answer.



Ah. Great. Just call it bullshit. Care to back that up? Please explain why the scientific 'theory' of rainbows is wrong, why their empirical evidence is false, and why your bible constitutes valid empirical evidence, and why your supernatural explanation of rainbows is any better then the thousands of races, cultures and religions' made up literal bullshit explanations.

Or, stop posting.

There's so much more I could say, but I won't because I'm a moral person.

My morals originate simply; If I would not like this to happen to me, I can then extrapolate it to others and realize they would not want it to happen to them, and then try to stop it from happening to anyone and others will do the same.

S A R C A S M.

Viraljimmy was using sarcasm in his post.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 06-05-2006).]

jsaxton14:

If you enjoyed Godel Escher Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid, you would really, really dig Consciousness Explained, by Daniel Dennett. He also attempts to define consciousness, and alot of collaborations were done with your boy Doug Hofstadter.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Copyright: 1991. This is fresh, and exciting.

quote:"I dislike the fact that Athiests are just cynics that don't want to believe anything they can't see. Everything has to be logical. Thats why I fucking hate scientists."

What scares me, is that after years of watching religious morons do their thing, I can't tell if this guy is being sarcastic or if he's really that stupid.

quote:Originally posted by HARDMAN:

Ok, I have a question for atheists. Most atheists believe that the universe is infinite and random, ie that the universe exists on an infinite time scale and physical forces do not have a creative force behind them. But getting into probability, in a random universe that goes on infinitely anything could happen, will happen, and will happen an infinite number of times. An infinite time period allows for an infinite number of possibilities. This validates many religious principles, such as reincarnation, and the likelyhood that there is possibly a "god" force existing at this time. In a random universe, I could experience this exact life once again in the future, right down to the position of the hairs on my head... it could be a trillion years from now, but in a universe that goes on forever, it will happen again. How do you, as atheists, consolidate this into your views.

Also, how to explain the extremely low levels of entropy that seem to exist on an atomic and subatomic scale?

The accepted theory is that the universe is both finite in space and time. That pretty much renders most of your point moot.

Also, why are you talking about low levels of entropy on the small scales? Entropy is a state function... it only applies to defined systems. State functions are like average qualties. For example, a single molecule doesnt have a temperature does it? Maybe you should clarify your question on that.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

S A R C A S M.

Viraljimmy was using sarcasm in his post.



Glad to see someone else caught that.

I feel that in the US, maybe this is just texas, atheists are viewed as worshipers of Satan, which i find incredibly hilarious considering Atheism is the belief or disbelief rather in a higher being, to put it simply.

As far as morals.....Atheism has a bit of Satanism to it

NOT OCCULTISM for anyone who doesn't know the difference

satanism, just a sort of hedonistic religion in the sense that you are here for you, whatever reason you choose to exist, that's your reason, you do what you want, why and how you want.

Society, morals, etc. all this is truly fascinating. A good subject of study, something i hope to profesionalize in someday. the way normal people fluctuate in their personalities in tune with how society changes.

Except atheism isn’t a religion and there’s atheists who are not hedonistic. And really, if they are, what’s wrong with searching for a little pleasure in the only life you’re going to have?

As for morals, loads of atheists have morals. In fact, if the bible isn’t real, then the morals were written by man, therefore morals are manmade, duh. I love it when you see a Christian proclaiming if there was no god there’d be no morals, that’s just nonsense and makes me seriously wonder what said Christian would be like if he didn’t believe in a god.

quote:Originally posted by diehard993:

I dislike the fact that Athiests are just cynics that don't want to believe anything they can't see. Everything has to be logical. Thats why I fucking hate scientists.

Are you kidding me?

Most people (theists included) would agree that some things are true and some things are not true. If we wish to know whether or not something is true, we need some sort of method to separate fact from fiction. This is where the Scientific Method comes into play. Scientists merely want to objectively prove that which is true and disprove that which is false using methods which anyone can reproduce for themselves (assuming they have the time, equipment, knowledge, etc.)

If you have a better way of separating fact from fiction, please, enlighten us.

quote:Originally posted by HARDMAN:

Ok, I have a question for atheists. Most atheists believe that the universe is infinite and random, ie that the universe exists on an infinite time scale and physical forces do not have a creative force behind them. But getting into probability, in a random universe that goes on infinitely anything could happen, will happen, and will happen an infinite number of times. An infinite time period allows for an infinite number of possibilities. This validates many religious principles, such as reincarnation, and the likelyhood that there is possibly a "god" force existing at this time. In a random universe, I could experience this exact life once again in the future, right down to the position of the hairs on my head... it could be a trillion years from now, but in a universe that goes on forever, it will happen again. How do you, as atheists, consolidate this into your views.

Also, how to explain the extremely low levels of entropy that seem to exist on an atomic and subatomic scale?

So you believe there is a possibility of something within the universe that is worthy of being considered a "God" that controls rather than understanding that the Reality in which the Universe exists in all its magnificent glory is the only thing worthy of being called "God" which everything is limited by, and what we are manifested within?

quote:Originally posted by HARDMAN:

Ok, I have a question for atheists. Most atheists believe that the universe is infinite and random, ie that the universe exists on an infinite time scale and physical forces do not have a creative force behind them. But getting into probability, in a random universe that goes on infinitely anything could happen, will happen, and will happen an infinite number of times. An infinite time period allows for an infinite number of possibilities. This validates many religious principles, such as reincarnation, and the likelyhood that there is possibly a "god" force existing at this time. In a random universe, I could experience this exact life once again in the future, right down to the position of the hairs on my head... it could be a trillion years from now, but in a universe that goes on forever, it will happen again. How do you, as atheists, consolidate this into your views.

Also, how to explain the extremely low levels of entropy that seem to exist on an atomic and subatomic scale?

Like RealPUA said, the Universe is both finite in time and space. If the Big Bang is true (and there is abundant evidence to suggest it is), then space and time started at a finite point. If you go into any place in the future, there will be a finite amount of time between that point in time and the beginning of the Universe.

However, regarding the aspect of probability, I will grant you the fact that as time goes on, the probability of any given event generally increases. However, as far as I am concerned, there are certain events which have a probability of zero. If you go back to my post regarding omnipotence (http://tinyurl.com/zp8vc), I note that an omnipotent god could reconcile that which cannot be logically reconciled (ie: truckfixr gave the case of god being able to make A != B and A = B simultaneously). A being that can violate logic will never arise, given any period of time, because the laws of logic are constant and cannot be violated.

quote:Originally posted by Vashthe3rd:

I feel that in the US, maybe this is just texas, atheists are viewed as worshipers of Satan

I'm from Minnesota, and the vast majority of people I talk to see atheism as just another set of beliefs. They don't think I'm a bad person or anything. They just think I'm damned, and I know some really devout people.

quote:Originally posted by Vashthe3rd:

As far as morals.....Atheism has a bit of Satanism to it

NOT OCCULTISM for anyone who doesn't know the difference

satanism, just a sort of hedonistic religion in the sense that you are here for you, whatever reason you choose to exist, that's your reason, you do what you want, why and how you want.

Society, morals, etc. all this is truly fascinating. A good subject of study, something i hope to profesionalize in someday. the way normal people fluctuate in their personalities in tune with how society changes.

Atheism doesn't say anything regarding morals except that they didn't come from a god. My lack of belief in a god and my moral standards are two entirely different things.

quote:Originally posted by AngryFemme:

jsaxton14:

If you enjoyed Godel Escher Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid, you would really, really dig Consciousness Explained, by Daniel Dennett. He also attempts to define consciousness, and alot of collaborations were done with your boy Doug Hofstadter.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Copyright: 1991. This is fresh, and exciting.

Thanks for the recommendation. If I get some time (I've been really busy as of late) I'll consider picking up a copy.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

S A R C A S M.

Viraljimmy was using sarcasm in his post.



Oh. Sarcasm doesn't get across well over the internet, and I have no idea what viral's views are.

Especially on this forum, I have come to expect the worst.

My apologies viraljimmy, I assumed you were just a complete idiot. Digital_Savior has lowered my opinion of humanity, I think.