http://tinyurl.com/pyn8l

What is gods logic or purpose of this event?

Dont close this one please. It belongs here and it will spark a discussion

[This message has been edited by HAND (edited 06-06-2006).]

Yes he does he doesn't react off of being dumb, dummy

Perhaps the Lion had already cut a deal with God concerning his next meal.

What a complete and utter imbecile.

quote:Originally posted by Electron:

Yes he does he doesn't react off of being dumb, dummy



I assume you're a "beleiver". How irionic you would call me such a thing.....

I think God quit handing out "that" kind of help at the end of the Old Testament. He probably figures he made you ass smart enough to not lower yourself into a lion's den on purpose. Look up this Bible verse. It was Jesus who said it. "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God." He said this when satan was tempting him while he was fasting for 40 days in the "wilderness/mountains". I've got a fairly high IQ, and I would consider this guy's act as a "temptation" for God to help him. It was like making a promise for God that God didn't commit to yet.

lol God doesn't like shouting obviouslaaaay!

quote:Originally posted by Darian_AR:

I think God quit handing out "that" kind of help at the end of the Old Testament. He probably figures he made you ass smart enough to not lower yourself into a lion's den on purpose. Look up this Bible verse. It was Jesus who said it. "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God." He said this when satan was tempting him while he was fasting for 40 days in the "wilderness/mountains". I've got a fairly high IQ, and I would consider this guy's act as a "temptation" for God to help him. It was like making a promise for God that God didn't commit to yet.

So then your god prefers people suffer a terrible mauling by a lion, only to die bleeding to death in a Zoo, instead of doing something which would cost him absolutely no time, energy or resources? Great.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 06-06-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

lol God doesn't like shouting obviouslaaaay!

neither do lions...

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

So then your god prefers people suffer a terrible mauling by a lion, only to die bleeding to death in a Zoo, instead of doing something which would cost him absolutely no time, energy or resources? Great.



"So then your reality prefers people suffer a terrible mauling by a lion, only to die bleeding to death in a Zoo, instead of reality doing something which would cost reality absolutely no time, energy or resources? Great."

Yay!

quote:Originally posted by Real.PUA:

Abrahim is basically a normal theist and believes in the judeo-christian god, he only started with this reality crap as a way to avoid the hard debate. He is able to circumvent the evidence against god by saying god is reality, but he still believes in the living judeo-christian god (but doesnt make this belief obvious). This is where the apparent inconsistency of his philosophy lies.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Originally posted by Real.PUA:

Abrahim is basically a normal theist and believes in the judeo-christian god, he only started with this reality crap as a way to avoid the hard debate. He is able to circumvent the evidence against god by saying god is reality, but he still believes in the living judeo-christian god (but doesnt make this belief obvious). This is where the apparent inconsistency of his philosophy lies.



I'm not totally sure about that, I am sure I don't believe in any God in the image of man or "father" in the sky nor anything like that, I've explained a few times what I do literally believe and the only thing that does make sense to me, this is quotes from CIVIL LIBERTIES:

Well before you kill this beast, let me tell you one thing: There is no being in the image of man nor any being that created every thing. There is no Diety or God save one, One so obvious that it remains a mystery to most.

People look for a God in the sky, in the Earth, some kind of Image to place faith in, an idea. Yet every single day they meet the only True God, and they deem themselves self sufficient of it, yet they are completely dependant on it.

They want some God that is within the universe that floats around on a magical cloud and controls the universe with a chessboard. They can find that in their minds. Yet that is not The True God I speak of. Any of you can guess what this True God is, the Only God, one that completely has you under its controls through its limitations on you. You can not even think a single thought unless that thought is an available option to you, or do anything without it. You live with it, sleep with it, and interact with it in waking and in sleep. What is it?

God is not some man in the sky, nor will ever be, nor will any thing you can see that you do not already see be your God.

Your God is one God, what we are all made of, exist within, and are completely dependant on.

God is Reality. The Ultimate Reality. The Reality we exist within, interact with, are made of, where all possible perceptions of all possible things can occur, if the option for the thought is not available, you can't think it. The System is smooth, flawless, perfect, without Glitches.

People question the "control" of God without seeing how in fact they are completely limited and dependant on Reality. They look for something within Reality, when Reality itself is The Only God.

I don't only mean objective physical reality, I mean the subjective reality too, what we can think, a superimposed hallucinatory image, what matter is it made of? The actual image is not made of any matter, yet it is still an option within this Reality, or else you wouldn't be able to think it.

God is The Reality, there is no God but this. People say they will believe when they see some large being come down from the sky? Yet any large being that may come down from the sky is within reality, made of reality, limited by reality, thus Reality remains the True and Ultimate God.

The Ultimate Reality is where we exist, where this universe is, essentially it is the only thing, that ever was or will be.

Nothing does not exist, what I mean to say as, True, Absolute Nothing, does not exist, as something (this) can not come from Nothing. Nothing always remains as Nothing, it has no capability to manifest.

On the other hand, Ultimate Reality has always existed, there is nothing beyond it, it is all there is and ever was, it is the manifestor of all possibilities, all realities, including this one.

It is "alive" if it were dead, inactive, then so too would we be non active, incapable, non existant, All things are in motion constantly.

God is The Reality, all things are part of the Reality, made up of the Reality, dependant on the Reality. You can call it anything, from God, Allah, The Tao, The Force, The Brahman, its one thing, all of the above were words to describe it but some ended up humanizing it. It is not a human, it has no form, it is infinite, it has no limits, it is the only power, the ultimate power.

Why would one deny evolution and the processes of this universe? They are made manifest and clear. But to deny Reality would be the mistake, and Reality is the only God, the Ultimate God. The sustainer of Worlds, the Supreme "King", The Provider of all things.

Prove to me Reality does not exist? You can't without blatant denial of yourself and all that is within and without you. Reality is God, the Only God. We are all within it, and Nothing is without it.

Originally posted by truckfixr:

I can agree with you up to a point. Reality exists. Beyond that, you are stretching things a bit.

Reality is not a sentient being, thus it honestly cannot qualify as being a God. You're calling it so is based on your opinion/belief. Not on emperical evidence.

I'm not saying it is sentient in the way we are sentient:

Here is the definition from www.dictionary.com (http://www.dictionary.com)

sen·tient ( P ) Pronunciation Key (snshnt, -sh-nt)

adj.

Having sense perception; conscious: “The living knew themselves just sentient puppets on God's stage” (T.E. Lawrence).

Experiencing sensation or feeling.

____________________________________________

Everything is made of Reality, including our feelings, and our ability to be sentient. Everything is within Reality, everything is in constant motion. Reality is not "dead" or else that would mean it would be nothing and not exist at all, nor would any thing manifest, exist, or manipulate, or even have a plain on which to exist, nor would or could anything manifest, appear or even move.

Reality is "Alive"

a·live ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-lv)

adj.

Having life; living. See Synonyms at living.

In existence or operation; active: keep your hopes alive.

Full of living or moving things; abounding: a pool alive with trout.

Full of activity or animation; lively: a face alive with mischief.

Main Entry: alive

Pronunciation: &-'lIv

Function: adjective

: having life : not dead or inanimate

Clearly Reality is Animate, we and everything is proof of this.

Ultimate Reality is "Aware" of all things existing within it, the proof of this is in the manifestation of all the available possibilities for us and our ability to execute them, furthermore our personal Awareness being proof of "Reality posessing Awareness". Besides all that, if Reality were not "Aware" those things it is "Unaware" of would not exist.

Aware

adj 1: (sometimes followed by `of') having or showing realization

We and everything around us are the Realization of Reality.

re·al·i·za·tion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-l-zshn)

n.

The act of realizing or the condition of being realized.

The result of realizing.

Manifestation:

man·i·fes·ta·tion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mn-f-stshn)

n.

The act of manifesting.

The state of being manifested.

An indication of the existence, reality, or presence of something: A high fever is an early manifestation of the disease.

man·i·fes·ta·tion (mn-f-stshn)

n.

An indication of the existence, reality, or presence of something...

Main Entry: man·i·fes·ta·tion

Pronunciation: "man-&-f&-'stA-sh&n, -"fes-

Function: noun

: a perceptible, outward, or visible expression

There is your "Creation" The Manifestation of this Reality which is within Ultimate Reality, which is the Manifestor. To call it the "Manifestor" is not innacurate as clearly, we are manifest and here to prove it.

The funny thing is "We are witnesses unto ourselves" what I mean to say is "we are the proof against ourselves" So is everything else!

So to Recap, We and All that is, ever will be, ever was, ever can or will be, in this or any other reality, belongs within Ultimate Reality. Ultimate Reality is what we are "Manifest" within. There is no Diety or God greater or mightier than this, and it is not a humanoid or anything of the sort, nor does it operate or think like us, it is infinite, the proof of its life is in the movement of all things, the proof of its awareness is in our being manifest. If it did not "know" we would be "dead" or inactive in it. know ( P ) Pronunciation Key (n)

v. knew, (n, ny) known, (nn) know·ing, knows

v. tr.

To perceive directly; grasp in the mind with clarity or certainty.

To regard as true beyond doubt: I know she won't fail.

To have a practical understanding of, as through experience; be skilled in: knows how to cook.

dead ( P ) Pronunciation Key (dd)

adj. dead·er, dead·est

No longer in existence, use, or operation.

We are the proof amazingly, yet we look everywhere for something that doesn't exist, when "God" is right infront of us, we are operating through it. We are sufficient proof of it. The Ultimate Reality, we are within it, it is without us, self sufficient, be it that we exist or not, it is ever living, before and after. Call it what satisfies you, it is one undeniable thing, to deny it is to Deny the Truth, Yourselves, The Reality which you exist within.

ex·ist ( P ) Pronunciation Key (g-zst)

intr.v. ex·ist·ed, ex·ist·ing, ex·ists

To have actual being; be real.

It is one God that has appeared throughout history, constantly mutated by the minds of men which belong to it completely, for their form to the possible thoughts they can possibly think. Even the most ancient hunter gatherer societies have this most ancient concept ingrained into their personal religions, even so, athiests deny it due to their definitions of God which they base of the corruptions of humans. God is and has always been "The Ultimate Reality" Never has "God" been a man in the sky, some being with a form, or anything possible within Ultimate Reality because it, itself is Ultimate Reality and all things are within it, not without it.

Its been called many things, though it is one thing, and so too are we, who all belong in it and exist only within it and because of it, are one with it, yet we deem ourselves self sufficient, we are completely dependant. We are under its controls by its limitations. It is beneficent in its gamut of options which it has bestowed us, to do what we wish, and all things having their cause and effect.

People claim that this world is IMPERFECT, do they see glitches? Does your computer screen suddenly dissapear forever with no explanation right before your eyes? The System is Perfect, This Reality is Perfect, Ultimate Reality is Perfect, if it is incapable of one thing it is Imperfection, as Imperfection is Nothing, it can not manifest.

All Religions are an attempt to explain this truth in a way people can understand. Many get close. Christianity tries in its own way but its humanizations mislead.

The first beliefs understood this, it was understood all was a part of Reality, then each part, to explain the phenomena was accounted a spirit of action, originally accepted as part of the One, but later misrepresented through alagory and explanation as its own part, and all beliefs have this core, as does human existence, since it is undeniable.

Each Religion from the most ancient to the new says it in their own Way and tries to make the message clear. It is one Message. There is only One Religion.

The only dispute and matter of "Faith" should be in an afterlife or ressurection.

But even so, that concept is there, once again reflecting ultimate Truth, that to everything there is a Cycle, even so to this universe, it expands and will collapse and restart. The Night and the Day and the Night and the Day. The land grows dry and dead and then rains bring out the life again. A million metaphors to represent the ultimate cycles within Reality.

Please read the above post if you havent!

Reality is obviously not aware in the way we are but Reality is aware, the fact that we exist being that awareness manifest. If not we would not exist, but true that to us sounds humanization, but I don't mean it that way AT ALL.

en·ti·ty ( P ) Pronunciation Key (nt-t)

n. pl. en·ti·ties

Something that exists as a particular and discrete unit: Persons and corporations are equivalent entities under the law.

The fact of existence; being.

The existence of something considered apart from its properties.

If anything, in that case, Reality would be the only Entity, what we all exist within, what only exists, what we are all made of. That would only be according to definition 2 of the word. In any case, everything is within and part of one thing, and that is Reality, it is infinite, essentially it is all there is.

in·fi·nite ( P ) Pronunciation Key (nf-nt)

adj.

Having no boundaries or limits.

Immeasurably great or large; boundless: infinite patience; a discovery of infinite importance.

Mathematics.

Existing beyond or being greater than any arbitrarily large value.

Unlimited in spatial extent: a line of infinite length.

Of or relating to a set capable of being put into one-to-one correspondence with a proper subset of itself.

I thought it was relevant since the word Manifestation was used, Creationists can simply say that the Bible uses metaphor to teach in the case of the story of our creation. Then they can take science as the fact, the story as the metaphor representing the science. I don't know why they would defend something untrue when they can just as easy take it as metaphor.

I'd LOVE to talk to you on an IM program! Which one do you use? I am MSN, AIM, and Yahoo. Which do you use? How can I add you?

Yeah I didn't understand what the phycedelics was reffering to:

did you mean:

psy·che·del·ic ( P ) Pronunciation Key (sk-dlk)

adj.

Of, characterized by, or generating hallucinations, distortions of perception, altered states of awareness, and occasionally states resembling psychosis.

Hope to see you soon on one of the IM's I'll add you, or you could add me at abrahimesker@hotmail.com , abrahimesker , or abrahim_esker@yahoo.com

Originally posted by truckfixr:

We are aware. Reality is not.

Consider this. If all life in the universe were to cease to exist, any and all awareness would also cease to exist. Reality would remain. There would simply be no one to observe.

If we are Aware, Reality "posesses" Awareness. If it did not, we would not be Aware. Its language trickery maybe, but its literal too.

You are right about the second part, Reality would remain.

Most of what happened yesterday is unknown and unremembered, unverifiable, unproveable.

Were we created?

Were we manifested?

Were we molded by evolution?

Why can't people understand whatever the case, they are all the same, and the proof is that we are here.

We are manifestations, manifested within Reality and this Universe, and molded/created by evolution, a process which was originally manifested as a possibility within Reality and this Universe. The argument goes into semantics, language, and philosophy. There is only One God worthy of Worship, Understanding, Submission. There is no Being within this Universe or outside it worthy of worship save the one thing.

The one thing has been described in a billion ways over history by different people, and it is always an attempt to explain the one thing which EVERYONE knows willingly or unwillingly. There is no Elephant, Bearded man, Spirit Being, or any other explanation of the One thing.

The One Thing is not seperate from anything, or any of us, we are within it, a part of it, manifested by it, within it, and are completely dependant on it.

Some call it "What is Real" some give it other images and forms, thus limiting it in peoples minds and ruining the original concept.

Hinduism, Taoism, Islam, they all talk about the one thing and describe it in various fashions. Even Zoroastrianism, even Athiests can't deny the One Thing, they all call it by different names, it has no name save a name we give it.

Even the oldest religions, the most ancient hunter gatherer beliefs try to describe this one thing and mention it in their various fashions.

I call it "Reality" what encompasses all of us, objective, subjective.

Hindu's call it brahma (nominative singular), brahman (stem) (neuter[1] gender) means the concept of the Supreme transcendent and immanent Reality or the One Godhead or Cosmic Spirit in Hinduism; this is discussed below.

The Vedas depict Brahman as the Ultimate Reality, the Absolute or Universal Soul (Paramātman) [6]. It is the ultimate principle who is without a beginning, without an end, who is hidden in all and who is the cause, source, material and effect of all creation known, unknown and yet to happen in the entire universe.

Bhuddists include this belief as well as other religions that have sprung from Hinduism.

"Ishvara (ईश्वर in devanagari script, pronunciation /ī:sh vərə/), also variously transliterated (romanized) as Īshvara, Īshwara, Īshwar, Īśvara, etc. (Sanskrit: "the Supreme Lord, and hence the Cosmic Controller") is a Hindu philosophical concept of God meaning that entity or the Supreme Being which is the lord and the ruler of everything. It is also used in Buddhism to mean 'lord' or 'master', eg, Avalokiteshvara."

The same goes for "The Tao" in Taoism.

The same with "Allah" in Islam, it is a description of Ultimate Reality.

Everyone from the beginning of our attempts to explain things, have been attempting to explain one thing, which we exist within, interact with, are controlled by, has an infinite potential of aspects (manifestations) but is One, call it what you want, Reality, Tao, The Brahman, Allah, God. It is one thing, and it is One. Nothing is outside of Reality, it is infinite and all encompassing, the most powerful thing. No big man in the sky, beast, or alien creature is worthy of Worship, the most powerful thing is this Reality. It is one Religion, it has always been one Religion, people have tried to describe one thing over and over and people tend to misunderstand it over and over again: They seek what can only exist within their minds, and EVEN THAT is within the bounds of the One Reality, The Ultimate Reality.

"Pantheism (Greek: pan = all and Theos = God) literally means "God is All" and "All is God". It is the view that everything is of an all-encompassing immanent God

Debate

Some critics argue that pantheism is little more than a redefinition of the word "God" to mean "existence", "life" or "reality". Many pantheists reply that even if this is so, such a shift in the way we think about these ideas can serve to create both a new and a potentially far more insightful conception of both existence and God."

This forum is for religious debate, it has a name that is very cute: My God can beat the Shit out of Your God, while both are attempts to describe one singular thing.

The other point people can debate on is the afterlife, something which no one has proof or knowledge about or for, what we know is now, and we should use it to the best of our advantage.

Understand: New and Old, attempts have been repeatedly made to describe one thing, there is nothing else we know but Reality, it was what we live in and are made of and are completely dependant on.

The Qur'an says it, Hinduism says it at its core, and Taoism said it too.

It has no name so call it what you want, it is one thing and it is undeniable.

There is no Diety or God but the Reality we exist within. There is no man sitting in the sky waiting for you, there is no man who is God, there is One Ultimate Reality, all that is within it is a part of it equally.

You are all manifestations within Ultimate Reality, this is obvious because here we are, debating what is obvious.

Nothing can threaten the True Religion, and it is one, and nothing can destroy it either because it is True. You can attempt to deny the undeniable, but it is futile because even to deny it you utilize it to do so and are completely dependant. The best you can do for yourself is to humble yourself to it, submit to it, attempt to become one with it, at peace with it, do right: Islam, Taoism, Hinduism, Bhuddism all suggest the same thing. Judaism and Christianity also attempt to describe the path of becoming at peace with Reality.

Do what you know is right, and good for you, good for others, you know it, I know it, we may do it differently. What is wrong is bad for us and others, what is right is good for us, and good for others. Use common sense.

Being human and living in Reality is an automatic religion, you breath, you walk, you talk, you fight, you write, you laugh you cry, you argue about one thing with different names.

All Polytheistic Religions from the past were originally an attempt to describe what is known, and what is unknown. To describe Reality which is one, they gave it aspects, which became known as spirits or Gods, which controlled each aspect, but are all part of the "Creator" or "King" or the "Master" God which is Reality, and all were manifestations of it.

The One Truth, Reality exists, internal or external, we are all here and manifested by it, dependant on it completely.

Damnit Rust. You know better than to feed trolls. Now he's wasting bandwidth in this thread too.

OMG I hate people who quote such long things. Paraphrase. It shows your OWN intellect.

And hey, what would your IQ have to do with deciphering what is(n't) tempting the lord?

I'll keep my numbers to myself, but my interpretation of temptation is to tempt them into sin or going back on a promise-type-thing (the described fasting). Though Jesus could not sin for he was God, he could still be tempted. He had to live with these temptations and overcome them. To tempt the (nonexistant) lord would mean to try to coax Him into doing something that would be sinful or that He definitely would not do.

Why would God have to have a purpose in this event?

If the lions didn't attack, it could have been seen as them just being docile for a sec, apathetic. But they showed their predatorial instincts and ripped the guy a new one, as they should have.

Jump off a building and say God'll save you. Strap a bomb on yourself and pray for protection. Why would God have any REASON to save these people? They have FAITH, as in trust, as in belief in a guy that has shown time after time that violence and loss is a part of reality.

Does the event have to have a purpose? Some guy came up with the idea in his head to tempt a lioness and lost. He chose it. I doubt he had a dream where the Holy Spirit told him to do it.

That the event occured in no way presents proof of God's existance or whether he gives a shit. If God were to actually exist, He could have reasons(in His infinite wisdom) for letting the event take place.

Personally, I believe that the guy was a few nuggets short of a Happy Meal. No sane person could do such a thing and expect to survive.

quote:Originally posted by HAND:



I assume you're a "beleiver". How irionic you would call me such a thing.....

You actually think this is evidence to there not being a god. What do you expect us to call you?

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

"So then your reality prefers people suffer a terrible mauling by a lion, only to die bleeding to death in a Zoo, instead of reality doing something which would cost reality absolutely no time, energy or resources? Great."

Yay!

Apparently, you don't care for logic and common sense.

Faith to me means that if a trouble arises God will be there. And if you're happy god will be there. That dude showed no faith, not real faith. In fact by trying to force god into action we could say he had no faith at all ,didn't trust that if something bad did happen god with gove him the strength to prevail...

I think it proves that god has a sense of humour ... a twisted ,bnlack sense of humour... but a sense of humour nontheless.

If I was God I would have grabbed some popcorn sat down with a beer and said " hey jesus come look what this guys gonna do"

Yeah, I'm an atheist and I think that is stupid "proof" of god's non-existence.

quote:Originally posted by Lucky:

If I was God I would have grabbed some popcorn sat down with a beer and said " hey jesus come look what this guys gonna do"

Haha.

It's proof that if god exists he lets horrible things happen, but that is already obvious.

Abrahim, this is a decent example to show you the difference between "reality" and "god".

"Reality" is a place where sometimes lions kill you when you fuck with them.

"God" is a personality who would intervene to protect you because you believe in him.

Do you see the difference here?

quote:Originally posted by coolwestman:

You actually think this is evidence to there not being a god. What do you expect us to call you?



When did I say that this is proof of his non-existence? Dont you ever put words in my mouth. Besides There is plenty of other proof to his non-existence

I would suppose that coolwestman got the idea from the title of this thread.

quote:Originally posted by HAND:



When did I say that this is proof of his non-existence? Dont you ever put words in my mouth. Besides There is plenty of other proof to his non-existence

Look at your subject title, idiot. Show the proof or stfu.

quote:Originally posted by Viraljimmy:

Abrahim, this is a decent example to show you the difference between "reality" and "god".

"Reality" is a place where sometimes lions kill you when you fuck with them.

"God" is a personality who would intervene to protect you because you believe in him.

Do you see the difference here?

I disbelieve in your idea of "God", the Reality is my only God, and yours too.

quote:Originally posted by bonkers:

Apparently, you don't care for logic and common sense.

Whatcha meanz?

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

So then your god prefers people suffer a terrible mauling by a lion, only to die bleeding to death in a Zoo, instead of doing something which would cost him absolutely no time, energy or resources? Great.



It's called FREE WILL. God has never MADE anyone do anything they didn't want to do. Suggested, pleaded, asked and demanded, but never MADE. If this guy went into the lion's den, he was taking his life into his own hands. He had the knowledge to avoid the situation but obviously didn't use it. He could have proved his love for God some other way.

quote:Originally posted by Darian_AR:

It's called FREE WILL. God has never MADE anyone do anything they didn't want to do. Suggested, pleaded, asked and demanded, but never MADE. If this guy went into the lion's den, he was taking his life into his own hands. He had the knowledge to avoid the situation but obviously didn't use it. He could have proved his love for God some other way.

If free will does indeed exist, then a perfect being cannot possibly be omniscient. Hence, there cannot be a perfect being.

quote:Originally posted by Darian_AR:

It's called FREE WILL. God has never MADE anyone do anything they didn't want to do. Suggested, pleaded, asked and demanded, but never MADE. If this guy went into the lion's den, he was taking his life into his own hands. He had the knowledge to avoid the situation but obviously didn't use it. He could have proved his love for God some other way.

It's called OMNIPOTENCE. If god is omnipotent, he must have the power to prevent this guy's death without subverting his free will.

Given that he could have done so (by virtue of his omnipotence) yet decided not to save the man, it means that he prefered seeing the man be mauled by lions instead of saving him.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 06-07-2006).]

Ah yes, let's play the game of arbitrarily assigning things names for no reason. While we're at it, I would like to explain how God there is a higher God then this one who consists of all of the 'reality' which exists in the 4th spatial dimension. He embodies an infinite number of 3rd dimensional universes like our own and is infinitely above our current 'reality' God.

By the way, I actually comprehend the 4th spatial dimension. If you want you can look up guides that help you visualize it but it's really one of those things where you ultimately just have to 'get it' and think about it in the right way to make it click.

Anyway, this happened because the 'Reality' God doesn't give a shit about anything because 'Reality' is inanimate, has no free will, conscience, or the ability to think; it is simply protons, neutrons, electrons, quarks, and some other more fascinating particles, in addition to the ones we haven't discovered as of yet.

These events match up, as usual, perfectly with the notion that there is no God.

quote:Originally posted by coolwestman:

Look at your subject title, idiot. Show the proof or stfu.

First of all, It was obviousley a joke and I also said "OR he doesnt give shit" What's with your hostility anyway? You need to relax, kid

quote:Originally posted by HAND:

First of all, It was obviousley a joke and I also said "OR he doesnt give shit" What's with your hostility anyway? You need to relax, kid

HEY WHO ARE YOU CALLING A KID! *smashes bottle on table and cuts hand* WELL THAT DIDNT WORK OUT AS PLANNED *walks away holding hand*

quote:Originally posted by IanBoyd3:

Ah yes, let's play the game of arbitrarily assigning things names for no reason. While we're at it, I would like to explain how God there is a higher God then this one who consists of all of the 'reality' which exists in the 4th spatial dimension. He embodies an infinite number of 3rd dimensional universes like our own and is infinitely above our current 'reality' God.

By the way, I actually comprehend the 4th spatial dimension. If you want you can look up guides that help you visualize it but it's really one of those things where you ultimately just have to 'get it' and think about it in the right way to make it click.

Anyway, this happened because the 'Reality' God doesn't give a shit about anything because 'Reality' is inanimate, has no free will, conscience, or the ability to think; it is simply protons, neutrons, electrons, quarks, and some other more fascinating particles, in addition to the ones we haven't discovered as of yet.

These events match up, as usual, perfectly with the notion that there is no God.



protons and neutrons are within reality. Reality is inanimate? I wonder what the heck I'm doing right now then! What are you doing? How am I doing this? Reality is constantly active.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

It's called OMNIPOTENCE. If god is omnipotent, he must have the power to prevent this guy's death without subverting his free will.

Given that he could have done so (by virtue of his omnipotence) yet decided not to save the man, it means that he prefered seeing the man be mauled by lions instead of saving him.



He wasn't the only one who prefered it!

Well let's see. If God showed any type of factual proof that he existed, then there wouldn't be any point of having faith. For most, there's no point in relying only on belief if there's some scientific proof of his existence. Besides, we can't really speak on it since we don't know his intentions. Maybe he was just cocky and dared God to prove his existence. Shit, maybe he was trying to "prove" to the masses that he doesn't exist.

I've given up on this relgion stuff but I do know that thou shalt not tempt the lord.

quote:Originally posted by HAND:

First of all, It was obviousley a joke and I also said "OR he doesnt give shit" What's with your hostility anyway? You need to relax, kid

Ahem, not that obvious.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

neither do lions...

Well, as serious as I take this part of Totse, I laughed.

quote:Originally posted by pyroniccorona:

Well let's see. If God showed any type of factual proof that he existed, then there wouldn't be any point of having faith. For most, there's no point in relying only on belief if there's some scientific proof of his existence. Besides, we can't really speak on it since we don't know his intentions. Maybe he was just cocky and dared God to prove his existence. Shit, maybe he was trying to "prove" to the masses that he doesn't exist.

What a perfect chance for God to prove him wrong. Instead, God keeps on hiding, both himself and his intentions. How is faith a benefit to us? Wouldn't it be more comforting and reassuring for us if he showed himself and made his intentions clear? The fact that he doesn't, can only mean two things. Either he is evil, or he doesn't exist.

quote:Originally posted by HAND:

http://tinyurl.com/pyn8l

What is gods logic or purpose of this event?

Dont close this one please. It belongs here and it will spark a discussion



I think all Christians should adopt this as the new ritual of confirmation.

quote:Originally posted by Merlinman2005:

Ahem, not that obvious.



I apoligize. Im always kidding, Especially in these boards

quote:Originally posted by elfstone:

What a perfect chance for God to prove him wrong. Instead, God keeps on hiding, both himself and his intentions. How is faith a benefit to us? Wouldn't it be more comforting and reassuring for us if he showed himself and made his intentions clear? The fact that he doesn't, can only mean two things. Either he is evil, or he doesn't exist.

You insist there is something to see that you haven't already seen? Is life itself evil? Life doesn't exist? You require some form to your God, a God within Reality to see? Then how is it a God at all, everything within Reality is another part of reality, all the same part of the one. You'll never see God more than you've already seen God. You'll never know God more than you already know God. You'll never interact with God more than you do in every living moment. Is God hidden? Or are you blind? Of course you're expecting to see something no one will see, and something that is not worthy of being called a God.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

HEY WHO ARE YOU CALLING A KID! *smashes bottle on table and cuts hand* WELL THAT DIDNT WORK OUT AS PLANNED *walks away holding hand*



YOU STUPID FUCKI-....wait, You're not him!.....You're just completley insane....

quote:Originally posted by HAND:



YOU STUPID FUCKI-....wait, You're not him!.....You're just completley insane....

lol!

Why do you assume it proves that god doesn'y exist or is evil (this is in general now).

God could have used his infinite powers to make a automaton version of a humna being to show dumb fucks what will happen if you fuck around with faith. Kinda like a an A-Z of Faith ,"L is for lion. Lion will fuck you up. End." Admittedly not PG ,but hell there we go.

Maybe God isn't evil so much as he has just ... Gone to bed. Maybe God after realizing he made a shit job of the world decided to fuck off and make some more worlds... Mind you I 'spose this would go against the classical god...

Oh well ,Point being ,you can't prove an absence of something. And maybe God's power is not what it was ,maybe he expended a lot of it making the world ,flooding the world ,and generally fucking people up ... who knows .... Maybe there's a lesson to be had in this bullshit...

quote:Originally posted by JesuitArtiste:

Why do you assume it proves that god doesn'y exist or is evil (this is in general now).

God could have used his infinite powers to make a automaton version of a humna being to show dumb fucks what will happen if you fuck around with faith. Kinda like a an A-Z of Faith ,"L is for lion. Lion will fuck you up. End." Admittedly not PG ,but hell there we go.

Maybe God isn't evil so much as he has just ... Gone to bed. Maybe God after realizing he made a shit job of the world decided to fuck off and make some more worlds... Mind you I 'spose this would go against the classical god...

Oh well ,Point being ,you can't prove an absence of something. And maybe God's power is not what it was ,maybe he expended a lot of it making the world ,flooding the world ,and generally fucking people up ... who knows .... Maybe there's a lesson to be had in this bullshit...



If "God" went to bed the lion wouldn't have been able to eat the man. Nor would you have been able to type "maybe God has gone to bed"

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

If "God" went to bed the lion wouldn't have been able to eat the man. Nor would you have been able to type "maybe God has gone to bed"

.... God of classical theism .. or at least a god like god ...

I was not ,despite contrary belief ,talking about reality. *sigh*

quote:Originally posted by HAND:

First of all, It was obviousley a joke and I also said "OR he doesnt give shit" What's with your hostility anyway? You need to relax, kid

What do you expect? Lots of kidiots(which is ironic for you calling me a kid) come here and say this shit. I take stuff seriously in MGCBTSOOYG. sorry, hah.

People have free will, like the will to jump into a pit calling out for God...

And lions have free will too! Just like the lioness that killed him! Yay for elimination of stupidity!

Besides, idiots take away from causes. Who wants an idiot follower? Not God!

Maybe God subscribes to Darwinism?

JesuitArtiste and WaveCrest, I like what you've said.

quote:Originally posted by elfstone:

What a perfect chance for God to prove him wrong. Instead, God keeps on hiding, both himself and his intentions. How is faith a benefit to us? Wouldn't it be more comforting and reassuring for us if he showed himself and made his intentions clear? The fact that he doesn't, can only mean two things. Either he is evil, or he doesn't exist.

But of course it would be more comforting and reassuring. And then if there was proof that he existed, then it would shatter most of the world (outside of the U.S.) and then all hell would break loose BEFORE Satan came up here.

who said the kiev man wasn't a sinner and god thought he deserved it. Also the fact , he's forcing god to show that he exists and wasting his life when there is people all over the world wishing they were as lucky as him to actually hav food and drink. just a thought....

God ( if one exists ) would have done the world an injustice if he had saved this man. He could save one idiot and it would benefit one person. Only the idiot. By allowing him to die, it eliminates the chances of him ruining our gene pool even moreso than it already is. Humanity wins.

The God of classical theism is a concept of weak minds.

A God that no one knows or understands...who knows.

I'm agnostic, leaning towards atheism, but I have an open mind (unlike most religious people I meet).

quote:Originally posted by Mellow_Fellow:

The God of classical theism is a concept of weak minds.

A God that no one knows or understands...who knows.

I'm agnostic, leaning towards atheism, but I have an open mind (unlike most religious people I meet).

You may not "understand" God but you certainly Know God.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

You may not "understand" God but you certainly Know God.



You have no idea what you're talking about.

quote:Originally posted by bonkers:

You have no idea what you're talking about.

lol Why!

I'll tell you why http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Because there is no possibility whatsoever that you could fathom what is going on inside of his/her head.

The God connection just doesn't manifest itself inside of all people. Why it's so difficult for religious folks to take that into consideration is beyond me.

But you know hamsters, and god is hamsters.

quote:Originally posted by AngryFemme:

I'll tell you why http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Because there is no possibility whatsoever that you could fathom what is going on inside of his/her head.

The God connection just doesn't manifest itself inside of all people. Why it's so difficult for religious folks to take that into consideration is beyond me.



The only God is my God. The one that you don't consider a God despite it being the ultimate factor on which you are completely, and all things are completely dependant on. You know what its called.

Okay, Abrahim. This is the last time I am going to kick this dead horse:

Your interpretation of "Reality" is one that you can infer ONLY BECAUSE your Central Nervous System allows you to do so. Your personal experiences, thoughts, memories and dogmatic tendencies allow you to perceive a Reality which to you is beyond "not knowing" - to you, it is all-encompassing, the only Reality out there, worthy of worship because, as you state, "Everything is dependent on it".

Your error lies in not perceiving this Reality, but attempting to transfer it onto everyone else, in hopes of spreading the Abrahim Perception of Reality (and the dogma that goes along with it) to other people. You seem suprised and taken aback that the notion of "Reality is God" isn't just a given to most people.

I don't think you're taking into account the fact that natural selection and evolution has made possible BILLIONS of species-specific "realities" for all creatures great and small who happen to have a central nervous system capable of painting this Universe that exists outside of their minds.

Expecting others, or more fittingly,recruiting others to buy into YOUR concept of Reality is a bit egocentric on your part. Consider this:

Your perception of Reality is what your mind presents to you as The Virtual World around you, and it's Universe.

"A cardinal feature of each virtual world is its egocentricity. Each of us lives in a world whose centre is our body image. Virtual worlds are egocentric because coding for a self-centred universe helps maximise the inclusive fitness of selfish DNA. A 'view from nowhere' would be genetically maladaptive. So world-making DNA macromolecules ensure that the egocentric delusion is a heritable design feature of the worlds they encode."

It is my belief that attempting to adjust other's realities to fit into your own is both a futile and close-minded effort on your part. Perhaps the best way for Abrahim to define his reality is to wrap it up in a nice, warm God-like embrace, claim it is the root of everything Then, Now, and in the Future ... and then somehow superimpose this personal reality on every.other.living.being out there.

You're just not taking into account the possibilities of other perceptive realities out there.

Your unreflective naïve realism is itself a highly adaptive delusion. This isn't to be taken as an insult, because most organisms are in the grip of that delusion.

"The mind-independent world doesn't - and couldn't - directly imprint its signature on our brains/minds/virtual worlds. Their intrinsic properties are not - and couldn't be - contingent on the particular occasions on which they are triggered. "

What you are presenting to the public here is Abrahim Esker's Perception of Reality - nothing more, nothing less.

Arguing that it is the TRUE reality, a reality that one must share in order to "Know God" - is egocentric, narrow-minded, and - however good your intentions might be - kinda whacko, since you won't take other's perception into account. If you take their perception into consideration, you twist it to somehow fit into your own.

Am I doing the same by arguing this fine point with you? No. I am not asking you to bend your perception in order to fit within mine - I am asking you to please consider that "Reality" is not some shared concept that is experienced by every living organism in the exact same way. It is unique to each individual in that it manifests itself according to whatever physiological and psychological necessity it takes form for that particular individual.

The memes of Religion are rejected by my personal necessities. My perception paints a picture of God as being an imagined entity that divides people, divides Nations, divides cultures and attempts to bundle people's "reality" into that which has been already been determined, regardless of their actions. It turns people into megalomaniacs, with low tolerance for others.

*italics taken from: www.huxley.net (http://www.huxley.net)

quote:Originally posted by AngryFemme:

Your unreflective naïve realism is itself a highly adaptive delusion. This isn't to be taken as an insult, because most organisms are in the grip of that delusion.

I have some questions.

1. You're smart. Are you why Digital Savior don't come around here no more?

2. How did you get the little dots above the "i"?

naïve ... like this? http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

You compose it in a word processor or other software and transfer it to here by utilizing the nifty tool of *cut & paste*. This also renders bad spelling, grammar and sentence structure more readable by that magical wizard known as SpellCheck, which, I'm afraid, gives the illusion of making the writer appear smart, just by absence of grammatical error. It also safegaurds against losing hundreds of keystroking efforts when your 1990 Compaq decides to betray you by freezing up mid-post.

I am not formally educated, or consider myself "smart" by any stretch of the imagination. Anything you see me type here is nothing that hasn't been regurgitated in some form or another many, many times before. Littering it with my opinions and my perceptions is really the only way I can hope to convey to anyone who is reading it what MY take on it is, how it works out with my train of thought. But I'll be the first to admit that "original thought" is something that I (and most of us) have very little of. We're all copiers and imitators in that very same rite, as all we can do is recycle the information we've taken in over the course of a lifetime.

I'm not sure why Digital Saviour doesn't come in here anymore. You might want to talk to Rust about that. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

With the new breed of Holier Than Thou's that have cropped up in this forum(HellzShellz and Abrahim, to name just two) - kinda makes one ache for the dependable, well-spoken, long-winded, generic old DS. I personally believe she is better off defending her politics than her religion. Her spirit is alive and well in the PLRC forum.

Jesus has taken a temporary backseat to Ann Coulter. If you'll read that forum closely, you'll notice that has become her new soapbox.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

So then your god prefers people suffer a terrible mauling by a lion, only to die bleeding to death in a Zoo, instead of doing something which would cost him absolutely no time, energy or resources? Great.





It would negate the universe, if a person could make God do whatever they wanted...

I'm sure that DS will show up again. I assume,although I may well be incorrect, that she is trying to formulate some sort of response to the Civil Liberties thread.

I guess we'll have to wait and see.

as was previously stated, if god provided humanity with proof that he existed, how much faith would truly be involved in believing he exists? none at all. it would merely be fact, and atheists everywhere would convert. saving this man would only create more chaos. your silly interpretation of fact and misuse of any logic skills you might have makes me laugh. a hearty good laugh, i might add.

God cant help every retard

quote:Originally posted by ate:



It would negate the universe, if a person could make God do whatever they wanted...

The guy made a request, and god could fulfill the request, or not. He (if he exists) chose to not fulfill it. That's not "making" him do anything. It's a request, one that is not forced in any way shape or form.

Both fulfilling a request and not fulfilling a request could have consequences. It seems god preferred the consequence of the man being tared apart by lions in a gruesome death.

quote:Originally posted by AngryFemme:

With the new breed of Holier Than Thou's that have cropped up in this forum(HellzShellz and Abrahim, to name just two) - kinda makes one ache for the dependable, well-spoken, long-winded, generic old DS. I personally believe she is better off defending her politics than her religion. Her spirit is alive and well in the PLRC forum.

Jesus has taken a temporary backseat to Ann Coulter. If you'll read that forum closely, you'll notice that has become her new soapbox.



Everyone knows, I am Jesus!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v295/Abrahim_Esker/water.jpg

No one click that link!

It's Abrahim, posing lasciviously and looking deep in thought.

quote:Originally posted by AngryFemme:

No one click that link!

It's Abrahim, posing lasciviously and looking deep in thought.



Or rather: Click to find out what it is to pose lasciviously!

quote:Originally posted by AngryFemme:

I'm not sure why Digital Saviour doesn't come in here anymore. You might want to talk to Rust about that.

With the new breed of Holier Than Thou's that have cropped up in this forum(HellzShellz and Abrahim, to name just two) - kinda makes one ache for the dependable, well-spoken, long-winded, generic old DS. I personally believe she is better off defending her politics than her religion. Her spirit is alive and well in the PLRC forum.

Jesus has taken a temporary backseat to Ann Coulter. If you'll read that forum closely, you'll notice that has become her new soapbox.

How do you manage to be complimentary and insulting at the same time ?

My absence here had nothing to do with Rust. Perhaps you should ask him why he never comes to Politics anymore.

I honestly just have a hard time focusing my attention on two forums at once. I became interested in politics, and disinterested in religion. At least the totse variety. I am sure you can understand my sentiment.

Why do you believe I am better off defending my politics ?

Jesus could never take a back seat. My presence on this forum, or lack thereof, is not indicative of my spiritual well-being.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

How do you manage to be complimentary and insulting at the same time?

That wasn't meant to be insulting. Just my personal observation, which is all I could really offer. It wasn't really meant to be complimentary, either - although I see how it could be taken that way. I feel complimented when others read my posts so carefully, too. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote: Why do you believe I am better off defending my politics?

You seem more passionate about it these days. Your tone is more excitable. You seem to have more supporters there. A whole myriad of reasons. It appeared as though you grew tired of championing the God Cause, is all. I was forced to reach that conclusion due to your absence here, and overwhelming presence there. Here is a compliment, though: You seem to have a better track record of "presenting facts" in the PLRC forum than you do here. If part of your online syllabus is to change minds and influence people, it seems as though you're faring much better in PLRC than here.

quote:That wasn't meant to be insulting. Just my personal observation, which is all I could really offer. It wasn't really meant to be complimentary, either - although I see how it could be taken that way. I feel complimented when others read my posts so carefully, too.

The compliment came in the form of your preference for my long winded, however well-spoken, posts over those of others here.

The insult came in the form of comparing me to people that aren't even remotely qualified to be compared.

Hellz Shellz is very emotional, but she is sweet, and mostly patient. She doesn't really have a strong theological foundation for her beliefs, however.

Abrahim is simply insane, and lacks any logical proof of his convictions. Proselytizing is his favorite thing to do, all while decrying his opponents for their blasphemy and idolatry, though he can't provide any evidence of it.

quote:You seem more passionate about it these days. Your tone is more excitable.

I do tend to hold back here, because...well, I don't want to represent Christianity poorly. But anyone that hangs out in Politics will say that I do anyway, so I guess it hardly matters anymore.

However, I think I was quite passionate, for a very long time, in this forum. As over 3,000 posts here in My God could have attested, if the crappy BBS hadn't eaten all the archives of my contributions, so...really no proof left.

quote:You seem to have more supporters there. A whole myriad of reasons.

Supporters ? Where ? There are other conservatives there, yes...but I don't think they support ME personally, by any stretch of the imagination.

quote:It appeared as though you grew tired of championing the God Cause, is all. I was forced to reach that conclusion due to your absence here, and overwhelming presence there. Here is a compliment, though: You seem to have a better track record of "presenting facts" in the PLRC forum than you do here. If part of your online syllabus is to change minds and influence people, it seems as though you're faring much better in PLRC than here.

I grew tired of saying the same things over and over again here, every time a new wave of totseans emerged. They didn't even bother to search the archives for answers to their questions...though they have all been lost since then.

Also, every Christian is familiar with times of spiritual mountains and valleys. When experiencing a spiritual mountain, one is motivated to defend the faith. When experiencing a spiritual valley, it's time to hunker down and be silent in introspection...waiting for a word from the Lord. I have been in a valley for a while now. I don't feel it is appropriate to try and minister during those times.

As for presenting facts, Christianity is more about faith than it is about facts. While I can provide a plethora of historical and archeological evidence supporting the accuracy of the Bible, in the end it all comes down to faith. Arguing politics and arguing Christianity are completely different things, and are therefore approached differently. You cannot expect the same kind of research here that you would there. I don't think that is an indication of my abilities.

Changing the minds of people here was actually not as difficult as you might imagine. No one ever admitted it here in public for fear of rebuke or ridicule, but in private there was a great deal of change occurring. I admit I didn't expect that sort of response from this crowd, but very few people I have been in contact with outside of totse have been as angsty and disrespectful as they are here. Some gave up porn, some converted, and still others continue to quiz me to this day.

Anyway, thanks for explaining yourself.

P.S. I just happened across a collage of totseans from 2004, and you were in it. You're a pretty gal. Just thought I'd share my impression. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 07-21-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

The insult came in the form of comparing me to people that aren't even remotely qualified to be compared.

You're right on this one. And I stand corrected. The Abrahim/HellzShellz analogy was a bad one.

quote: However, I think I was quite passionate, for a very long time, in this forum. As over 3,000 posts here in My God could have attested, if the crappy BBS hadn't eaten all the archives of my contributions, so...really no proof left.

Somewhere I have saved a whole myriad of pages from this forum from times of 'yore. Unfortunately, they reside in a very disorganized group of unlabeled disks that would be difficult to find in short order. But let it be known that I have archived more than a few Key Speaker points from this forum since 2002 (yes, I'm that geek). One of these days I will find it, bury it in a time capsule, and all you fine people can thank me later!

quote: Supporters ? Where ? There are other conservatives there, yes...but I don't think they support ME personally, by any stretch of the imagination.

Digi! C'mon!! You know full well that Fuzzball would kneel down and drink your bathwater. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

quote: P.S. I just happened across a collage of totseans from 2004, and you were in it. You're a pretty gal. Just thought I'd share my impression.

Why thank you! Thankyouverahmuch. What a kind thing to say. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

The guy made a request, and god could fulfill the request, or not. He (if he exists) chose to not fulfill it. That's not "making" him do anything. It's a request, one that is not forced in any way shape or form.

Both fulfilling a request and not fulfilling a request could have consequences. It seems god preferred the consequence of the man being tared apart by lions in a gruesome death.



Ok, now tell me how God could have possibibly have fufilled that request?

""When did I realize I was God? Well, I was praying and I suddenly realized I was talking to myself.""

I'll give my logic (however illogical it is) for why I don't believe in a God.

God is all knowing and all powerful, yet we exsist in a world with suffering...

That's it, that's all there is. People say it's Adam and Eve's fault, however before God created Adam and Eve he knew what they would do. He also had the power to stop them from doing it, will still giving them free will, all powerful meaing he can do anything (such as controlling people's actions while still allowing them free will).

People say it's like a parent letting their kid skateboard, you have to let them learn on their own. Or like a friend dating an ugly chick, you can only tell him she's nasty, and hope he figures it out for himself. Really, it's more like taking an ice cube out of the freezer and putting it on the sidewalk while telling it not to melt. You made the effort to take it out of the freezer. You know before putting it in the sun that it will melt out there. You have the power to pick it up and put it back in the freezer. Instead you are just going to stand their and tell the ice cube it's doing it wrong...

quote:Originally posted by ate:



Ok, now tell me how God could have possibibly have fufilled that request?

I don't have to. Since we're talking about the Christian god, a god who possess the power to do anything, then I can be certain that it is possible and that alone is enough to support what I said. How that god may go about doing it in particular is not my concern, only that he can do so.