Some creationist proponents have argued that it's a ridiculous notion that humans evolved from monkeys. Well, that's true, we did not. Rather we evolved from a different species of primate. Well, I am not an atheist, but honestly...who would Adam and Eve's children breed with? Each other. And inbreeding leads to genetic disorders. What was that about a ridiculous notion?

quote:Originally posted by The Emo Hippy:

Some creationist proponents have argued that it's a ridiculous notion that humans evolved from monkeys. Well, that's true, we did not. Rather we evolved from a different species of primate. Well, I am not an atheist, but honestly...who would Adam and Eve's children breed with? Each other. And inbreeding leads to genetic disorders. What was that about a ridiculous notion?



It's possible ,I can't be arsed to do the math now ,But It seems possible .... It would take a while but eventually there would be differances in the bloodlines so after a fair few generations genetic inbreedng would becme less pronounced ....

At least I THINK so .... It is early in the morning .... so I May be wrong.....

Of course ... We should really be one race I suppose ,unless evoloution is true?

Would creationism still support evolution then?

quote:Originally posted by The Emo Hippy:

Some creationist proponents have argued that it's a ridiculous notion that humans evolved from monkeys. Well, that's true, we did not. Rather we evolved from a different species of primate. Well, I am not an atheist, but honestly...who would Adam and Eve's children breed with? Each other. And inbreeding leads to genetic disorders. What was that about a ridiculous notion?

Oh yeah, I'd much rather believe a fictional story about a talking snake and two people made out of dirt than the mechanism of natural selection and evolution...

What if Adam and Eve were different and you're all just retarded versions?

I personally believe Adam was Luca, a single cell type organism thing that went blip blip blip and self divided in the oceans where all life developed.

okay according to what I have read, Adam and Eve had Kane and Abel. now they got wives from somewhere. where did they get there wives cause they werent daughters of adam and eve. Bullshit from the beginning. And what about the elusive Lillith?

I pointed this out to my mother; she said that Adam and Eve were their first humans, but that didn’t mean god didn’t make more people in other places.

But that’s just a bullshit excuse if you ask me.

A wizard did it.



quote:Originally posted by The Emo Hippy:

Some creationist proponents have argued that it's a ridiculous notion that humans evolved from monkeys. Well, that's true, we did not. Rather we evolved from a different species of primate. Well, I am not an atheist, but honestly...who would Adam and Eve's children breed with? Each other. And inbreeding leads to genetic disorders. What was that about a ridiculous notion?

quote:Originally posted by The Emo Hippy:

Some creationist proponents have argued that it's a ridiculous notion that humans evolved from monkeys. Well, that's true, we did not. Rather we evolved from a different species of primate. Well, I am not an atheist, but honestly...who would Adam and Eve's children breed with? Each other. And inbreeding leads to genetic disorders. What was that about a ridiculous notion?

Im not religious but if the bible is true (but as we all know its kinda stupid & highly improbable) mabye adam and eve were the first "humans" but they didnt look like us to start with and what we look like is a result of inbreeding (and evolution..of course)



[This message has been edited by Alkane99 (edited 06-15-2006).]

Creationists often claim that Adam and Eve were genetically perfect (whatever that means) so they did not suffer the effects of inbreeding. Of course, they refuse to define what genetically perfect means. They merely state what the consequences of genetic perfection are.

If creationists want to be taken seriously they will examine the evidence, and base their conclusions off of that. As it stands, they examine their conclusions, and base their evidence off of that. I cannot respect that on an intellectual level.

yall know what god said the first time eve went swimming...

fuck im never going to get the smell outa those fish... LMWFAOf

your intentions are good, but your an idiot

quote:Originally posted by jdetterline:

okay according to what I have read, Adam and Eve had Kane and Abel. now they got wives from somewhere. where did they get there wives cause they werent daughters of adam and eve. Bullshit from the beginning. And what about the elusive Lillith?

Lilith was according to legend, Adams first wife. She supposedly differed from Eve by being made separate from Adam and she had wings like the angels.

She left the Garden after refusing lower herself and be submissive to Adams wants so she left. Adam complained to God and God threatened Lilith with the death of her's and Adams children but she to refused saying she was equal to not less than Adam. God told her yet again to return and submit or else.

Yet again she refused. God enraged by her refusal killed her children. Lilith cursed God's name. This in turn further enraged God and he cursed Lilith to wonder the earth as a demon till the end of time. Further legend has it that Lilith strangles babies in their sleep and causes women probelms at child birth.

The story also says God then went back to the garden and made Adam sleep so he could remove some of his essence. This he fashioned into Eve figuring that if they were created from the same stuff she would be more compliant to Adams needs.

As far as Adam & Eve having only two sons at the time of Ables death is suppost to be false. there were suppost to be other books that tell more detailed accounts of the Garden of Eden. those stories basically said that after they were kicked out Adam & Eve had sons and daughters.

Now if this is true then the only logical conclusion is that their sons took their daughters as wives, but the church refuses this account. Yet others point out that after Cane slew able and God marked him for all to see. Cane told God that others would seek him out to kill him for Ables death, so God told all that none should harm Cane and that he was to be sent out and basically shunned.

Yet somehow somewhere he found a woman and married her and had children. Who was this woman? where did she come from? did one of his sisters take pity on him and marry him? Many have tried to figure this out to no end.

One theory other than inbreeding was that there were other people on earth besides Adam & Eve and this where their kids took wives from yet this too is denied by many in the church as it casts yet more doubt as to whether the stories were true at all.





[This message has been edited by Nemisis (edited 06-20-2006).]

Theory of evolution

If mankind started off from two people, we would be retarded, apparently it's been medically proven

We evolved from stuff

I have heard rumors that there is some scientific research showing a random gene showing up in random peoples dna strands. According to the word of mouth report that I got, theorists are calling it the Lillith gene. That maybe when that asshole got kicked out of eden that Lillith got her hands on him and they had children.... thats about all i heard and/or know.. i have searched the net and couldnt come up with anything so if anyone can. more power to you.

Well, maybe Lilith took one of her sons with her when she left Eden. She hid him from God's eyes, and procreated with him.

There are many explanations to all of the problems you people present. If Adam and Eve are genetically perfect, then that would mean that they are void of any disease, sickness, or hereditary disorder that we have today. If they where indeed genetically perfect, then inbreeding wouldn't affect them too much. But of course, as you all know, perfection is a false hope that many maintain. Its just mere flattery nowadays. But maybe they where truly genetically perfect. How would we become so tainted? Evil? And if Evil is so corrupt, wouldn't it literally start disintegrating our genes? Something that can alter such a powerful and small chunk of matter has to be quite powerful, and over time should have had more of an affect than just AIDS.

I'm sorry, but Adam and Eve seem like a plausible idea. There are too many holes in you're arguments to actually prove that Adam and Eve are false.

And Darwin never actually stated that we evolved from monkeys, rather that we evolved from another species. The monkey idea was started many years after Darwin's death when his work was just beginning to be noticed.

quote:Originally posted by Nemisis:

Lilith was according to legend, Adams first wife. She supposedly differed from Eve by being made separate from Adam and she had wings like the angels.

She left the Garden after refusing lower herself and be submissive to Adams wants so she left. Adam complained to God and God threatened Lilith with the death of her's and Adams children but she to refused saying she was equal to not less than Adam. God told her yet again to return and submit or else.

Yet again she refused. God enraged by her refusal killed her children. Lilith cursed God's name. This in turn further enraged God and he cursed Lilith to wonder the earth as a demon till the end of time. Further legend has it that Lilith strangles babies in their sleep and causes women probelms at child birth.

The story also says God then went back to the garden and made Adam sleep so he could remove some of his essence. This he fashioned into Eve figuring that if they were created from the same stuff she would be more compliant to Adams needs.

As far as Adam & Eve having only two sons at the time of Ables death is suppost to be false. there were suppost to be other books that tell more detailed accounts of the Garden of Eden. those stories basically said that after they were kicked out Adam & Eve had sons and daughters.

Now if this is true then the only logical conclusion is that their sons took their daughters as wives, but the church refuses this account. Yet others point out that after Cane slew able and God marked him for all to see. Cane told God that others would seek him out to kill him for Ables death, so God told all that none should harm Cane and that he was to be sent out and basically shunned.

Yet somehow somewhere he found a woman and married her and had children. Who was this woman? where did she come from? did one of his sisters take pity on him and marry him? Many have tried to figure this out to no end.

One theory other than inbreeding was that there were other people on earth besides Adam & Eve and this where their kids took wives from yet this too is denied by many in the church as it casts yet more doubt as to whether the stories were true at all.



In my mind, this type of legend indicates that God is not 'perfect'.

God slays Lilith's children in favor of a more 'perfect' match. Then the offspring from said children, one slays the other?

God's sin is passed down, generation to generation I would say.

If there is a God how could it be he. Might he (the God described in these legends) be the demi-urge spawned by Sophia?

http://www.totse.com/bbs/eek.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/eek.gif) http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif)





[This message has been edited by Flesh (edited 07-19-2006).]

In my view there is as much truth in the old testament as there is in any religious text ie)none. Do you go around and believe the mystical tales in King Arthur? If not then why believe the tales in the old testament?

Firstly, evolution asserts that, in a sense, we are all ultimately inbred; every organism that shares a common genetic trait (i.e. basically all of them) is related. However, the difference in the distance of relationship between two animals of the same species versus two siblings is, of course, substantial.

Secondly, evolution leads to slow changes, so that interbreeding animals aren't majorly different from each other. So you don't have this situation of two people and only their kids or "monkeys" to fuck.

...

As for the Adam&Eve story... yeah, either there was a fair bit of inbreeding, or we reject basic biology and assume they had sex with other apes. Or accept the convenient solution that God created a bunch of other people, I guess if you're accepting the bible anyway that's pretty rational.

No, there's no inbreeding involved. You should read the rest of the story. Abel went into the Land of Nod, where all the other people were hiding.

when god created the first humans, they were genetically perfect. they didn't have those negative characteristics in their genetics to pass down. if their children interbred, they wouldn't either. it took time for them to arise.

mating with a family member comes with a greatly increased chance of freak births because of the fact that if one has one of these negative genetic defects, the chances are huge their family will too, and since both of their genes have it, it'll get passed into the offspring.

What about bellybuttons?

They were made, not born.

So god may Adam and Eve genetically perfect and then thought it was ok for the rest of people to be screwed over with genetic problems? How considerate. Didn't most people get wiped out in the great flood as well? Did they have to start inbreding again?

One of the great mysteries of the Bible. I was watching this thing on the history channel about weird stories left out of the Bible, and one of them explained it by having Cain and Abel raping Eve and forcing her to be kind of a baby factory and that the human race is just the product of incestual rape. No wonder they left it out.

quote:Originally posted by hche4335:

One of the great mysteries of the Bible. I was watching this thing on the history channel about weird stories left out of the Bible, and one of them explained it by having Cain and Abel raping Eve and forcing her to be kind of a baby factory and that the human race is just the product of incestual rape. No wonder they left it out.

I wish they had kept that in, I bet it was hot and it would of made the bible more interesting.

That story would have been super. Imagine those monks drawing pictures for that.

quote:Originally posted by Jake_golding:

Didn't most people get wiped out in the great flood as well? Did they have to start inbreding again?"The whole world" to Noah was probably not the entire surface of Earth. Up until the 1400's everyone in Europe thought they had already explored the whole world. Basically what I'm saying is that it might have just been the entire region that was flooded, which to the people living there would have been the whole world.

I don't think it was Noah going "God killed the world," but Moses acting as the narrator when he said that God didn't like the state of the world and decided to, in effect, start over.

quote:Originally posted by jdetterline:

okay according to what I have read, Adam and Eve had Kane and Abel. now they got wives from somewhere. where did they get there wives cause they werent daughters of adam and eve. Bullshit from the beginning. And what about the elusive Lillith?

they did have daughters - they had lots of kids after cain and abel

quote:Originally posted by The Emo Hippy:

Some creationist proponents have argued that it's a ridiculous notion that humans evolved from monkeys. Well, that's true, we did not. Rather we evolved from a different species of primate. Well, I am not an atheist, but honestly...who would Adam and Eve's children breed with? Each other. And inbreeding leads to genetic disorders. What was that about a ridiculous notion?

totally agreed so there for all christians and catholics r admittin they r a bunch of retards, jesus if ur up there stop me from postin this message aww can't stop me?

actually, each and every one of us share a common mother somewhere in asia about 6-8000 years ago.

not one person alive, or has been alive for a looooooooooong time, is not descended from this woman.

so, shoots this discussion to shit pretty quickly.

quote:Originally posted by Nihilist:

actually, each and every one of us share a common mother somewhere in asia about 6-8000 years ago.

Err, it's more like 140,000+ years, not 6-8,000.

So yes, that does 'shoot this discussion to shit pretty quickly'...

quote:Originally posted by bellbottoms_and_gin:

your intentions are good, but your an idiot

I like this way of putting it.

MAYBE......the whole Adam/Eve story is JUST a metaphor and has to do with the beginning of the agricultural revolution in the fertile crescent. They ate from tree of knowledge of good/evil, ie agriculture -> production -> who dies and who lives. MAYBE the whole Cain/Abel story is just a metaphor of the agriculturists vs the semitic herders. You really have to view these stories of the bible from the point of view of that culture. They were not agriculturists at the time(the semitic herders), but the people around them were.

quote:Originally posted by KikoSanchez:

MAYBE......the whole Adam/Eve story is JUST a metaphor and has to do with the beginning of the agricultural revolution in the fertile crescent. They ate from tree of knowledge of good/evil, ie agriculture -> production -> who dies and who lives. MAYBE the whole Cain/Abel story is just a metaphor of the agriculturists vs the semitic herders. You really have to view these stories of the bible from the point of view of that culture. They were not agriculturists at the time(the semitic herders), but the people around them were.

lol, nonono

good try, though

quote:Originally posted by Merlinman2005:

lol, nonono

good try, though

2. And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.

8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

The story of Adam is simply a mythological one. It is not about biological ancestry, but cultural ancestry. The fall of man via adam is not a fall into decadence or anything of the sort, but rather the division of man into two sorts - the tillers and the herders - the good and bad guys, with the tillers bent on killing the herders and taking their land.

"

It is a simple story: adam and eve spent 3 million years in the garden of eden, living on the bounty of the gods, and their growth was very modest; in the leaver life-style this is the way it has to be. But when Eve presented Adam with this knowledge, he said, 'Yes, I see; with this, we no longer have to depend on the bounty of the gods. With the matter of who shall live and who shall die in our own hands, we can create a bounty that will exist for us alone, and this means I can say yes to Life, and grow without limit.' Whenever a Taker couple talk about how wonderful it would be to have a big family, they're reenacting this scene beside the tree of the knoledge of good and evil. They're saying to themselves, 'Of course it's our right to apportion life on this planet as we please. Why stop at four kids or six? We can have fifteen if we like. All we have to do is plow under another few hundred acres of rain forest -- and who cares if a dozen other species disappear as a result?'

"

- Ishmael, Daniel Quinn



[This message has been edited by KikoSanchez (edited 07-27-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Flameguthix:

Well, maybe Lilith took one of her sons with her when she left Eden. She hid him from God's eyes, and procreated with him.

There are many explanations to all of the problems you people present. If Adam and Eve are genetically perfect, then that would mean that they are void of any disease, sickness, or hereditary disorder that we have today. If they where indeed genetically perfect, then inbreeding wouldn't affect them too much. But of course, as you all know, perfection is a false hope that many maintain. Its just mere flattery nowadays. But maybe they where truly genetically perfect. How would we become so tainted? Evil? And if Evil is so corrupt, wouldn't it literally start disintegrating our genes? Something that can alter such a powerful and small chunk of matter has to be quite powerful, and over time should have had more of an affect than just AIDS.

I'm sorry, but Adam and Eve seem like a plausible idea. There are too many holes in you're arguments to actually prove that Adam and Eve are false.



Hey what? I thought you were rattling off all those mini-story / "what if" sort of pseudo-explanations to prove how utterly random and open to interpretation and bullshit the whole thing was. That's how it came across.

Also, you're going through the debate backwards. The starting point is that there's no Adam and Eve story. The story having been presented, it's then up to its proponents to prove that it's true. It's THEIR responsibility to convince US, NOT the other way around.

quote:And Darwin never actually stated that we evolved from monkeys, rather that we evolved from another species. The monkey idea was started many years after Darwin's death when his work was just beginning to be noticed.

Yep, this is so. The theory of evolution is *based on* Darwin's 'Survival of the Fittest' in 1859's 'The Origin of Species.'

Yeah, the story of Adam and Eve is pretty much bullshit. All of those recessive genes would pile up over time and bam! Retards and mutants abound.

It all comes down to faith in the end, Religion defys alot of logic, but if you believe in the infallibility of a supreme being, then you can't really question how he does it, he just does.

personally though I think organized religion was bunked the moment two naked people took dietary advice from a talking snake

quote:Originally posted by jdetterline:

I have heard rumors that there is some scientific research showing a random gene showing up in random peoples dna strands. According to the word of mouth report that I got, theorists are calling it the Lillith gene. That maybe when that asshole got kicked out of eden that Lillith got her hands on him and they had children.... thats about all i heard and/or know.. i have searched the net and couldnt come up with anything so if anyone can. more power to you.

you are either talking about "copy numbers" or a gene phased out by evolution from earlier species.

Well their were other people beside Adam & Eve, but that doesn't mean that down the line we all became inbreed. Think of Noah's Ark. God told Noah to build a boat to hold two of every animal, and only he's family could go with him, so he and he's wife, sons, sons' wives, and their children.

quote:Originally posted by DonMuttoni:



personally though I think organized religion was bunked the moment two naked people took dietary advice from a talking snake

http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

If we were all actually decended from a small group of people, say the survivors of the flood which (which supposidly happened only a few thousand yeears ago, yeah?) the human population as we know it wouldn't be half as varied as it today. We would show more signs of a recent genetic bottleneck.

quote:Originally posted by Squakey:

http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

If we were all actually decended from a small group of people, say the survivors of the flood which (which supposidly happened only a few thousand yeears ago, yeah?) the human population as we know it wouldn't be half as varied as it today. We would show more signs of a recent genetic bottleneck.

God doesn't say how he measures time so 100 years to us could be 1 year to him

quote:Originally posted by Flameguthix:

Well, maybe Lilith took one of her sons with her when she left Eden. She hid him from God's eyes, and procreated with him.

Maybe she didn't, isn't god all knowing?

quote:Originally posted by Harde:

God doesn't say how he measures time so 100 years to us could be 1 year to him

How about 1 day for God equals thousands or millions of years for us?

quote:Originally posted by The Emo Hippy:

Some creationist proponents have argued that it's a ridiculous notion that humans evolved from monkeys. Well, that's true, we did not.

I bow down before the apparent all knowing