Ok, so on the free stuff thread I was just shocked and amazed when people had posted that they thought a rosary was just a set of random beads. I have tried numerous times to submit instructions on praying the rosary, but as I have mentioned before, Mr Hunter obviously doesn't think that Roman Catholic's are entitled to free expression, but that's the way it goes, and we've been dealing with poeple like him for 2000 years.

Anyway, if you look at your set of beads, you will see that there is a crucifix. Holding this in your hand, make the sign of the cross, and say "In nomine Patris, et Filii et Spiritus Sancti, Amen." [In nom-in-nay Pah-trees ett Fill-ee ett Spee-ri-toos Sunk-tee].

Then, we say the Apostle's Creed: (if people would like, I can post it in LAtin also)

I believe in God the Father, Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth:

And in Jesus Christ, his only begotten Son, our Lord:

Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary:

suffered under PontiusPilate; was crucified, dead and buried: He descended into hell:

The third day he rose again from the dead:

He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty:

From thence he shall come to judge the Living and the dead

I believe in the Holy Ghost:

I believe in the holy catholic church: the communion of saints:

The forgiveness of sins:

The resurrection of the body:

And the life everlasting. Amen



Then, move up from the crucifix, to the first bead. We now say the Pater Noster:

Pater Noster, qui es in caelis, sanctificetur nomen tuum adveniat regnum tuum. Fiat voluntas tua sicut in caelo et in terra. Panem Nostrum quoditianum da nobis hodie, et dimmite nobis debita nostra sicut et nos dimitimmus debitoribus nostris. Et ne nos inducas in tentationem sed libera nos a malo. Amen.

[Pah-tear noss-tear, kwee ess in chel-is, sanc-tee-fee-chay-turr no-men toom, ad-vay-nee-at reg-noom toom. Fiat voll-oon-tass too-a, see-koot in chell-lo ett in tear-ra. Pah-nem noss-trum kwo-dit-tee-ah-noom da no-bees hoe-dee-ay, ett dim-mitt-tay no-bees deb-bit-tah noss-tra, see-koot dim-mitt-uss debb-bit-torr-ee-boos noss-trees. Et nay noss een-doo-kas een ten-tah-tee-oh-nem, sed lee-beh-ra noss a mah-lo. Amen]

Move up to the group of three beads above the one you were just holding, and repeat three times [one for each bead] the Ave Maria:

Ave Maria, gratia plena, Dominus tecum. Benedicta tu in mulieribus et benedictus fructis ventris tui, Iesus. Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, ora pro nobis peccatoribus nunc, et in hora mortis nostrae. Amen.

[Ah-vay Maria, grah-tee-ah play-na, Domm-mee-noos tay-coom. Benn-ee-deec-tah too in moo-lee-err-ee-boos et benn-ee-deec-toos frooc-tees vayn-trees too-ee Yay-soos. Sanc-tah Maria, Mah-tear Day, orr-ah pro no-bees peck-a-torr-ee-boos, noonc et in orra mor-tees nos-tray. Amen]

Finally, on the last bead, say the Gloria;

Gloria Patria et Filio et Spiritui Sancto sicut erat in principio et nunc et semper et in saecula saeculorum.Amen.

[Glaw-ree-ah Pah-tree-ah ett Fee-lee-oh ett Spee-ree-too-ee sunc-toe see-koot ear-raht in prin-chee-pee-oh ett noonc et sem-pear ett in say-coo-lah say-coo-lorr-um. Amen]

And on the same bead, the Oratio Fatima;

O My Jesus, Forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of Hell, and lead all souls to Heaven especially those who have most need of thy Mercy. Amen.

Now, you will notice that the beads of the circlet part of your rosary, are broken down into groups. There will be five sets (known as "Decades"), if you have a "Lesser" rosary, which is the more common form, and Fifteen decades for the full rosary.

For each decade : First, the bible reading of meditation for the Mystery you are meditating on (we'll get into this a bit more later).

One Pater Noster on the first bead.

Ten Ave Maria's on each corresponding bead.

One Gloria and One Oratio Fatima on the last bead (which is the same bead for the next decade's Pater Noster.)

The closing prayers;

Hail, Holy Queen

Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy!

Our life, our sweetness, and our hope!

To thee do we cry, poor banished

children of Eve, to thee do we send

up our sighs, mourning and weeping

in this valley, of tears.

Turn, then, most gracious advocate,

thine eyes of mercy toward us; and

after this our exile show unto us the

blessed fruit of thy womb Jesus;

O clement, O loving, O sweet virgin Mary.

Pray for us, O holy Mother of GodThat we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.

The final Prayer;

O God, whose only begotten son, by his life, death and resurrection, has purchased for us the rewards of eternal life, grant we beseech you, that by meditating on these mysteries of the Holy Rosary of the Blessed Virgin Mary, we may imitate what they contain and obtain what they promise, through the same Christ Our LOrd. Amen.



THE MYSTERIES OF THE ROSARY:

The Joyful Mysteries:

these are said on Mondays and Saturdays, and also the Sundays of Advent:

1. The Annunciation [read Luke 1:26]

2. The Visitation [Luke 1:39]

3. The Nativity [Luke 2:1]

4. The Presentation [Luke 2:22]

5. The Finding [Luke 2:41]

The Sorrowful Mysteries:

These are said on Tuesdays and Fridays, and daily during Lent

1. The Agony in the Garden [Matt 26:36]

2. The Scourging [Mat 27:26]

3. The Crowning with Thorns [Mat 27:27]

4. The Carrying of the Cross [Mat 27:32]

5. The Crucifixion [Mat 27:33]

The Glorious Mysteries:

These are said on Wednesdays and Sundays of Ordinary time

1. The Resurrection [John 20:1]

2. The Ascension [Luke 24:36]

3. The Descent of the Holy Spirit [Acts 2:1]

4. The Assumption

5. The Coronation

Pope John Paul II also added another set of mysteries, The Luminous Mysteries. These are prayed on Thursdays.

First Luminous Mystery - The Baptism of Jesus in the River Jordan

And a voice came from the heavens, saying, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased."

Matthew 3:17

The Second Luminous Mystery - The Wedding at Cana, Christ Manifested

Jesus did this as the beginning of his signs in Cana in Galilee and so revealed his glory, and his disciples began to believe in him.

John 2:11

The Third Luminous Mystery - the Proclamation of the Kingdom of God

Jesus came to Galilee proclaiming the gospel of God: "This is the time of fulfillment. The kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel."

Mark 1:15

The Fourth Luminous Mystery - The Transfiguration of Jesus

And he was transfigured before them; his face shone like the sun and his clothes became white as light.

Matthew 17:2

The Fifth Luminous Mystery - The Last Supper, the Holy Eucharist

While they were eating, Jesus took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and giving it to his disciples said, "Take and eat; this is my body." Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins. Matthew 26:26

God Bless,

Tri.

[This message has been edited by trichocereus pachanoi (edited 06-18-2006).]

Here's the prayers in Irish;

I've also got the Creed in Irish somewhere, but it's quite difficult, I can't pronounce it yet, so I can;t give any phonetics for it...]

The sign of The Cross: In ainm aNathair, agus don Mhic, agus don Spirid Naimh. Amen.

[in on-yum a nuhher, aggus don vick, aggus don spreed nave]

The Our Father:

Ár nAthair, atá ar neamh, go naomhaítear t'ainm, go dtaga do ríocht, go ndeintear do thoil ar an dtalamh mar a deintear ar neamh. Ár n-arán laethúil tabhair dhúinn inniu, agus maith dhúinn ár gcionta mar a mhaithimíd do chách, agus ná lig sinn i gcathú, ach saor sinn ó olc.



[Awr nah'ar ataw air nav,

guh nay'far dan'im,

guh dog'ah duh ree'ukht

guh n'yayn'tar duh hul

air on tawl'iv mar a yayn'tar air nav

awr nah'rawn lay'hool tower doo'ing in'yoo

og'us mah doo'ing awr vee'akha

mar a wah'mwij'ih'ne dawr v'ayik'yoon'ah'hih fayn

og'us naw lig shin ih gah'hoo

okh ser shin oh ulk. (aw'men)]

Ave Maria:

'Sé do bheatha, a Mhuire, atá lán de ghrásta,

tá an Tiarna leat.

Is beannaithe thú idir mná

Agus is beannaithe toradh do bhroinne, íosa.

A Naomh-Mhuire, a Mháthair Dé,

guigh orainn na peacaigh,

Anois agus ar uair ár mbáis. Amen.

[shay do vah-ha, a Mwe-rah, ataw lawn je graw-sta, taw an tee-arna lay-ut. Ish been-nay-he too ee-jir maw, aggus ish been-nay-he torr-ra do vrona ee-osa. a narv Mwera, war-her jay, gee orin nah packy, annish aggis arr oor or moss. Amen.]

Gloria:

Glóir don Athair agus don Mhac

agus don Spiorad Naomh;

Mar a bhí ar dtús, mar atá anois agus

mar a bheas go brách, le saol na saol. Amen.

[Glorr don Ah-harr, aggus don Vick, aggus don Spirid Narv, mar a vee ar toos mar ataw anish aggis mar a bay go braw le seal na seal. Amen.]

What are the meanings of the prayers you said in Latin?

I love this post SO much its EXCELLENT, I learnt ALOT!

I'm a HUGE fan of this post.

I do have a question for Christians: You don't find concepts such as God the Almighty all Powerful Originator of all things beyond humans to have a "begotten" son to be a blasphemy?

begotten

adj : (of offspring) generated by procreation; "naturally begotten child"

That is to imply in some way God is like a man that he has a son rather than a more superior statement like God is Far Beyond what people claim. You don't find that such things as a son to be degrading to the all powerful SELF SUFFICIENT God?

Then other concepts such as Jesus descending to Hell? Why would Jesus go to hell?

Furthermore statements such as "Mother of God". You don't find such a statement Blasphemy? God is not a man, God is not a Father, God is not a Son, God does not have Children, God does not have a Mother, God is not a human being.

Why would God need to incarnate as a baby, eat, bleed, urinate, and more to die on the behalf of OTHERS responsibility? Does this make sense when God is All Powerful?

Every man and woman on Earth is responsible for their own sins, they have to ask forgiveness themselves and not to a Son, but to God, who is ever present.

God Incarnating into a single thing? God is everywhere in everything, everything is made of God and completely dependant on God.

Some explain it like this "Jesus was a sinless and perfect man thus the incarnation of God as God too is perfect" without understanding, GOD IS NOT A MAN, NOR IS GOD IN THE IMAGE OF MAN. God is the Originator of everything, Self Sufficient all things are completely dependant on God. God is what we exist within, not a MAN within the Universe, or a Being somewhere, But the very thing we are made of and exist within.

God was always there, before the universe, after the universe, God is essentially all there is and ever was and will be. God has no Mother, God is not Created, God is the Creator.

Jesus is a Man. Every single thing from a toilet to a thought to a planet in space is the "Incarnation" of God as it is made of God, Part of God, Existing within God the Infinite.

To say God is some Being within the Universe, To say God has a Form, to say God has a Body, to say God is a Father, to say God has a Mother, to say God is a Son is all Blasphemy. To say God is 3, when God is One, is Blasphemy.

To say "We drink the blood and eat the body of Jesus Christ the Son of God" is a Blasphemy.

Now I hope you're truly a man of a religion, a seeker of truth, a believer in God. I hope the understanding is somewhere in your mind that what I'm saying is true, and how what many people say is utter blasphemy against the glory and supreme purity of God.

Do you think that letting go of blasphemy will suddenly mean there is no God? God is the Reality you exist within, believe it or not, it is there, present, and you are dependant. Purchasing Error at the Price of Truth is your loss only, and you don't have to do it.

Is God incapable? Is Gods "hand" tied? God has a Son to do his work? God has a Messenger to give the Message, and Jesus was one of them, and how did they corrupt and twist his message.

Bow to God and God alone the Supreme, your Creator. Do Right and Good for yourself and YOUR benefit, You can not Harm or Hinder God, You can not Benefit God, it is for you to do Right. There is no Battle nor enemy to God, God is beyond, sublime, supreme, all are dependant. There is no Heavenly Battle between Good and Evil, there is only the daily battle to make the right decisions for your benefit and reward.

If you're a Christian I want to talk to you on MSN Messenger at abrahimesker@hotmail.com if you don't have that then AIM at abrahimesker or Yahoo at abrahim_esker please!

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

What are the meanings of the prayers you said in Latin?

In nomine Patris, et Filii et Spiritus Sancti, Amen. - In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, amen

Pater Noster, qui es in caelis, sanctificetur nomen tuum adveniat regnum tuum. Fiat voluntas tua sicut in caelo et in terra. Panem Nostrum quoditianum da nobis hodie, et dimmite nobis debita nostra sicut et nos dimitimmus debitoribus nostris. Et ne nos inducas in tentationem sed libera nos a malo. Amen. - Our Father, Who art in heaven, Hallowed be Thy Name. Thy Kingdom come. Thy Will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. Amen.



Ave Maria, gratia plena, Dominus tecum. Benedicta tu in mulieribus et benedictus fructis ventris tui, Iesus. Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, ora pro nobis peccatoribus nunc, et in hora mortis nostrae. Amen. - Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women, And blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, Pray for us sinners, Now and at the hour of our death.

Gloria Patria et Filio et Spiritui Sancto sicut erat in principio et nunc et semper et in saecula saeculorum.Amen. - Glory to the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, as it was in the begining, now and forever. Amen

Edit: Amen, for those that do not know, means: "And so it shall be"

[This message has been edited by Junyi (edited 06-19-2006).]

Abrahim, your post was rather interesting, and I find your views unique, and original.

What makes it so hard to comprehend all of these things, is the fact that it is by God's design, and we are attempting to understand it with a HUMAN mind. I can appreciate that you may interpret ""genitarem non factorem" or "begotten not made" in the way that you have, but you need to accept that The Lord God, has TOLD us that this is how it is. In reparation for Adam's sin, a sacrifice needed to be made that was both Divine, and Human. Hence the need for the Christ Child to be born of a human womb.

In order to understand the phrase "Mother of God" one must frist come to terms with the fact that God The Father, God The Son, and God the Holy Spirit are three separate beings while AT THE SAME TIME, they are OF ONE BEING. Therefore, Christ is not only the Son of God, He IS God the Son. Therefor Our Lady, is His Mother. Now I don't know about you, but so far already this is pretty hard for me to understand, but like I said - Mortal minds cannot understand Divinity.

The phrase in the Apostle's Creed "He descended to hell," or in some versions "He descended to the dead," is simply a case of terminology. Prior to Christ's sacrifice, there was technically no Heaven nor Hell, but simply Limbo, or a place of waiting, where souls went to await the day that they COULD go to Heaven. Christ descended there, and brought them the joyous news of their liberation, during the three days He spent as "dead". They call it Hell, but it was not Hell as we know of it today, it simply was Hell in the sense of a deprivation of God.

The prayers of the Rosary, however "blasphemous" you may consider them to be, were revealed to St Dominic by Our Lady Herself. So if the Coronated Queen of Heaven was sent to give these prayers to mankind, then is not your accusation in itself, blasphemous?

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quote:Originally posted by trichocereus pachanoi:

Abrahim, your post was rather interesting, and I find your views unique, and original.

What makes it so hard to comprehend all of these things, is the fact that it is by God's design, and we are attempting to understand it with a HUMAN mind. I can appreciate that you may interpret ""genitarem non factorem" or "begotten not made" in the way that you have, but you need to accept that The Lord God, has TOLD us that this is how it is. In reparation for Adam's sin, a sacrifice needed to be made that was both Divine, and Human. Hence the need for the Christ Child to be born of a human womb.



The Lord your God is not a man, is far beyond having children. It was men who invented a lie against God to say that he has begotten a son, and a blasphemy that they utter from their mouths and convince good people like yourself of an evil word, for the Lord your God is Supreme Exalted, Far Beyond having a Son and the idle inventions of Man.

Do you think God is some sort of being that has children and then sacrifices those children for the sin of an ant?

To everyone is their own responsibility to God, and no sacrifice can save you, but it is for you to pray and ask forgiveness of the Lord Your God.

Jesus was a man, born miraculously through his virgin mother, just as Adam was created with no father, Jesus was the creation of God, a man, who taught the message to the people to Worship and Submit to the One God. Not the 3 Gods, not the 6 Gods who are one, THE ONE GOD.

Who is the One God? The One God goes by many names. What are its aspects?

It is the supreme, the exalted, the mighty, the all knowing, all seeing, all experiencing, all, the mightiest, the controller of everything, the knowledge, the reality we exist within, the reality which all realities exist within and are completely dependant on and made of, our creator, our originator, NOT OUR FATHER, GOD IS NOT A MAN, NOR DOES GOD HAVE CHILDREN, NOR DOES GOD HAVE A MOTHER OR FATHER.

Creating false idols in the name of God, naming them God, illusions and inventions, false and untrue. There is one God, Ever Present, Closer to you than your blood and veins, it is not Jesus, it is not your Father, it is God, the One.

Mary was a wonderful woman, righteous and upright, she was not a blasphemer, nor would she make claim as a Queen or that she is the Mother of God, nor will praying to her accomplish anything, she is a human woman, she is no longer living.

Jesus was a wonderful man, righteous and upright, he was not a blasphemer, nor would he make claim as a God, for only God is the True King and Ruler, Provider of all things. Jesus was the servant of God, devout, one who had submitted.

No man or beast can die for the sins of another, but it is for you to ask for forgiveness, God does not demand blood sacrifice, this is the invention of men, the creation of God, who will be punished in hellfire, for the lies they invented against God.

What happened to the ressurection? Souls flying around like ghosts? This is a Greek concept. You will die, it will be like sleep, you won't know you are dead until you wake up, it could be a million years but it will feel like a day that you have slept, and the day you will wake is Judgement Day, when all that you have sent forth, will be shown to you, and sent back on you, when HUMANS, NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD, BUT HUMANS will be sorted out, some will be punished, some will be rewarded, there is no Limbo and there never was a Limbo, God is Pure and Everything was set before the creation of this Universe.

God is not a man nor in the image of man that he has children, sons, daughters, God is far superior to the devices of humans. God is everywhere, in everything, everything is made of God, there is no division.

You are the creation of God, like a tree, or a rock, or an ant, God has blessed you with many things to be thankful for, but God is not your Father, God is your Master, Your Ruler, Your King, Your Creator, Your God.

What is the conflict? What is it you are holding on to that you will blasphemy against God: The New Testament? It is not written by Jesus, the Book of Jesus is Gone now: Though there is a book with rightness, reason, understanding that does not blasphemy against God.

http://messenger.msn.com Please download that and talk to me on there at abrahimesker@hotmail.com

This isn't a joke nor am I fooling around with you, this is serious, about your mind, your life, your soul.

hey do u have to read the bible passages when u do the rosary?

quote:Originally posted by bigdjr:

hey do u have to read the bible passages when u do the rosary?

The idea behind that, is simply to aid you in meditating on the mystery. If you already know the mysteries off by heart, don't worry about it. If you are praying for a specific intention, it would probably not be strictly neccessary, although you should check with a Priest first, as I am merely a layman. When I remember to bring my Rosary Companion booklet down to my Mother in Laws, I will post meditations for each of the mysteries, so that people wihtout access to the Holy Bible can still meditate upon the mysteries.

Also, some people read slightly different readings, I'll try and find that info for you too.

God Bless you,

Tri.

quote:Originally posted by trichocereus pachanoi:

The idea behind that, is simply to aid you in meditating on the mystery. If you already know the mysteries off by heart, don't worry about it. If you are praying for a specific intention, it would probably not be strictly neccessary, although you should check with a Priest first, as I am merely a layman. When I remember to bring my Rosary Companion booklet down to my Mother in Laws, I will post meditations for each of the mysteries, so that people wihtout access to the Holy Bible can still meditate upon the mysteries.

Also, some people read slightly different readings, I'll try and find that info for you too.

God Bless you,

Tri.

thanks

I'd really appreciate if you could answer to my post in here!

sorry Abe, I've been flat out with work this week, and I haven;t had a chance to read your post thoroughly. I WILL get back to you though - I am coming to enjoy our discussions, as your debates seem to strengthen my Faith in the Church every time I hear your viewpoints.

God Bless you, and keep you,

Tri.

quote:Originally posted by trichocereus pachanoi:

sorry Abe, I've been flat out with work this week, and I haven;t had a chance to read your post thoroughly. I WILL get back to you though - I am coming to enjoy our discussions, as your debates seem to strengthen my Faith in the Church every time I hear your viewpoints.

God Bless you, and keep you,

Tri.

Thank You, I'm glad you enjoy my posts and I hope you get a chance to thoroughly read my most recent up there. I'm very happy that I've been a part of strenghthening your Faith, and as soon as you respond to my last we can continue the process of making you rock hard in faith.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

For a start, anyway, that sort of shoots some holes in your theories there, Abe.

As for false idols, that is a little more complicated - crucifixes, statues etc. are there to serve as reminders/visual aids in prayer. We do not pray to a statue. We do not pray to a crucifix. These things are there as symbols. We pray to what they REPRESENT. We pray to the Lord. We ask Our Lady, and the saints, to pray for us. We don't ask the statues. It's like having a photograph of your loved ones on the wall. It's a photo. It's not your family member, but a representation of them, there to remind you of how you love and care for them, and they for you.

You dispute the New Testament, but many of your arguments actually dispute the Torah, or Pentateuch, as well. Do you disbelieve the Old Testament as well?

Take care, God Bless,

Tri.

PS Sorry I'm in a hurry again, but am loking forwards to getting some time to fully discuss these matters with you.

quote:Originally posted by trichocereus pachanoi:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

For a start, anyway, that sort of shoots some holes in your theories there, Abe.

As for false idols, that is a little more complicated - crucifixes, statues etc. are there to serve as reminders/visual aids in prayer. We do not pray to a statue. We do not pray to a crucifix. These things are there as symbols. We pray to what they REPRESENT. We pray to the Lord. We ask Our Lady, and the saints, to pray for us. We don't ask the statues. It's like having a photograph of your loved ones on the wall. It's a photo. It's not your family member, but a representation of them, there to remind you of how you love and care for them, and they for you.

You dispute the New Testament, but many of your arguments actually dispute the Torah, or Pentateuch, as well. Do you disbelieve the Old Testament as well?

Take care, God Bless,

Tri.

PS Sorry I'm in a hurry again, but am loking forwards to getting some time to fully discuss these matters with you.



Thanks for the reply, I really appreciate you taking the time.

Can God not hear all prayers? Does God not listen to some? Praying to intercessors seems wrong while religion should be a connection between the individual and God. How can the prayer of another man forgive YOU, it is YOU who has to ask for forgiveness.

What makes Jesus the "Begotten Son" of God? That he was born of a virgin and did not sin? How does that make him a son of God, God is far beyond having children, God is not a man, we are men, we have children.

Pais is the word used for Son AND Servant, it is one word in the language of the Bible. It is much better in my opinion to say that Jesus is the Servant of God and the Servant of Man than saying that he is the Son of God (Who is beyond having Sons for God isnt a man) and the Son of Man (Servant of Man applies much better as that is what he was, serving man with the message of right and good)

"(3) You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. (4) You shall not bow down to them or worship them"

or

""Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them"(Exodus 20:4-6 KJV)"

Sure you don't worship them, but making graven images of God (If it is believed that Jesus is God.)

This is because God isn't a rock or a man or any of these things, but all these things are dependant on God the supreme.

I am against statements of blasphemy that appear in the Old Testament such as unverifiable lies about honorable men and messengers such as Noah and more: Furthermore for misleading and incorrect statements such as "God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the sky, and over the livestock, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

27 God created man in his own image. In God's image he created him; male and female he created them."

God has no image, God is not a human, God does not resemble a human or any created thing, God has no form or limits, God is infinite and all powerful, all images are within God, God does not have an image.

Saying "The Bible Said So" Is no exuse to blasphemy against God with the following statements:

Man is in God's Image and Likeness (God has an Image and Likeness)

Jesus is the Son of God. (God has Children)

God is One but also Three.

__________

God has no likeness or Image but all images are limited forms and within God's jurisdiction as God's creation.

Jesus was a man and a messenger of God, a devout servant of God. God does not have children and is not a man.

God is not 3, but only One, all is within, nothing is without.

____

Most idols are "visual aids" used to represent something else. They are still idols. Praying to dead men will afford you no benefit as not a word can be negotiated with God save what you will personally ask for directly, not THROUGH people who are not living and not yet ressurected.

I just want to say this:

1. the rosary is not a christian thing. the beads have been around for thousands of years as a meditational aid.

2. as i said before meditation was what the beads were primarily used for. the RCC used them to convert the buddhists and hindus who used them to christianity by insinuating the rosary into their religion.

quote:Originally posted by Otter:

I just want to say this:

1. the rosary is not a christian thing. the beads have been around for thousands of years as a meditational aid.

2. as i said before meditation was what the beads were primarily used for. the RCC used them to convert the buddhists and hindus who used them to christianity by insinuating the rosary into their religion.



I'm not sure if the Roman Catholic Church introduced the Rosary just to convert Bhuddists and Hindus.

Actually, Our Lady introduced the Rosary to the Church, in an apparition to St Dominic - which is why, to this day, the Dominicans are the foremost experts on the Rosary. Of course, I'm merely a layman, but I do what I can.

Abe - in regards to intercessory prayers, it's actually quite simple. First off, by definition, a Saint is simply someone who is in Heaven - the canonisation process is dependent on evidence of a intercessory miracle in regards to that particular saint. The way it works, is that, yes I pray for myself etc. but I also pray for others. In doing this I am "interceding" for them. But I am merely a man, here on Earth. I ask my friends to pray for me in certain matters. They do so also, but they are merely men on Earth. We ask the saints to pray for us, because they are in Heaven, and closer to God. They have led lives of dedicated service to God, and are now in His Presence, from whence their prayers are heard from a "higher position" so to speak. It's like politics - I don't just walk in to the Prime Minister's office and start yabbering away, I have to go through the hierarchy, I go to my local government first, my town's MP, and so on.

Also, prayers are much more effective when prayed in a group - this I know for a fact to be true, not because of anything people have said, but by experience - but when you are all by yourself, a few invocations on some saints to pray with you, and you're still praying in a group, there are many of you praying there together.

Intercessory prayer works. Regardless of any arguments on either side of the discussion, I ask you all to TRY IT FIRST. Try a simple 9 day novena for something small - but remember it's prayer, not WISHING! So pray for something that you would pray for anyways, that would be in accordance with the Traditions of the Faith (or at least, not in contrary with them,) and see what happens. A good way to do this would be to take your name, and try to find a saint who shares your name, or look for the Patron of your cause -ie St Anthony for finding lost things.

Anyway, I gotta run, I'm still flat out, but things should calm down in a week or so - sorry Abe, still haven't got that MSN but I will get there.

God Bless,

Tri.

quote:Originally posted by trichocereus pachanoi:



I ask my friends to pray for me in certain matters. They do so also, but they are merely men on Earth.

We ask the saints to pray for us, because they are in Heaven, and closer to God. They have led lives of dedicated service to God, and are now in His Presence, from whence their prayers are heard from a "higher position" so to speak.

It's like politics - I don't just walk in to the Prime Minister's office and start yabbering away, I have to go through the hierarchy, I go to my local government first, my town's MP, and so on.

Also, prayers are much more effective when prayed in a group - this I know for a fact to be true, not because of anything people have said, but by experience - but when you are all by yourself, a few invocations on some saints to pray with you, and you're still praying in a group, there are many of you praying there together.

A good way to do this would be to take your name, and try to find a saint who shares your name, or look for the Patron of your cause -ie St Anthony for finding lost things.

God Bless,

Tri.

Thanks for the wonderful reply, I appreciate you taking the time to reply to me. I also like your explanations.

God hears all prayers and every single thing, and God's attention is ever present everywhere at all times. God is not here or there, or anywhere, but EVERYWHERE, no one is in physical proximity closer to God than another, because God is absolutely everywhere, closer to you than your blood and veins even.

I don't believe Saints are in Heaven. Why? Because Judgement Day, the Day of Ressurection has not occured, and so those men and women are still dead, non living, and have not yet been raised.

Why not pray to a patron idol? It is the same tradition but this time the spirits and gods have taken form as Patron Saints who fulfill certain causes, just how there used to be specific Gods people prayed to for specific things, like a fertility God. It is idol worship and it is a blasphemy, dead men and women can not help you, and God is so near to you that nothing, not even what is in your heart or mind goes unheard.

Prayers are just as effective alone or in a group, but belief in something might be stronger in a group. It is not the number of people praying something that makes God answer a prayer.

No man or woman, no matter how wonderful or pious, can intercede on behalf of another. For example a great man can't say on behalf of the evil man "Oh God don't punish him in hell", if the evil man persists in evil he will be punished for it, and no ammount of intercession can intercede. People should pray for themselves, and for those who believe, and those who believe should pray for themselves too.

God is not a man, nor is in comparison to a Prime Minister, there is no hierarchy of intercession, God has no advisors, and no one has an authority with God. A poor vagabond and the prince of the world are in equal sight by God, the best is the best of conduct, even so the best of conduct can not intercede on behalf of the worst of conduct. God is aware of absolutely everything and is encompassing, surrounding, within and without, everything. We are not far from God physically, in the most literal sense, God is ever present, nearer than the atom's that we are made of.

I enjoy this topic and debate tremendously and hope you find the time to continue it with your next reply!

I want to keep this up but you can bookmark it for ease.

Right, first of all SORRY, I have not been able to get online for awhile, there has been one thing after another, which has kept me from getting onto Totse. The computer I normally use came down with a virus, and it's use has been restricted to email and "trusted" sites - unfortunately Totse hasn;t seemed to be considered "trusted".... yet.

Anyway, Abe - where were we? I hope you have been well, anyway! Umm... carrying on with the Holy Pictures / Sacred Images etc. thing, another good example is the Stations of the Cross - when we pray, we meditate on each Station - this is aided greatly by the statues/paintings/carvings/depictions of each Station - you can see what it is you are meditating upon. And for the Rosary similar pictures help also - when I pray the fifth Sorrowful mystery, I find it deeply moving at times, to gaze upon a crucifix, and gain a deeper insight into what it must have been like for Our Lord - and what an immense love He must have for us to endure all that willingly to save our souls!

I keep forgetting to bring the Rosary Companion with me to post on here, but I WILL get to it at some stage - Abe, if you get on here before tomorrow, I should be able to post again tomorrow, so I'm looking forawrd to hearing from you again!

God Bless,

Tri.

Just an off-topic question, is the original language of Christianity Aramaiac? (sp?)

quote:Originally posted by Loc Dogg:

Just an off-topic question, is the original language of Christianity Aramaiac? (sp?)

The OT was written in Hebrew, and the NT in Greek and Aramaic (if I remember correctly).

Yeah, Twisted Ferret's right with the Biblical lingos - and then you had the Vulgate in Latin and then later on the Douay-Rheims in English. BTW Twisted Ferret, did you get my reply to your email the other day? I've been having some problems with my email service, so sorry if it didn't get thru, buit I did reply!

One more thing Abe, and anybody else who is curious - I ask of you this one thing - TRY IT. Pray 5 decades of the Rosary every day for a month. After that, you may even like to keep going longer, in which case, I ask of you this - pray 5 decades of the Rosary for 6 months. Or a year. Or the rest of your life.

You can argue theory back and forth all day, but try the practical side of this discussion, and I am serious, man, cos this stuff is for real. Try it - at the very least all you can hope for is to prove me wrong!

God Bless,

Tri.

quote:Originally posted by trichocereus pachanoi:

Yeah, Twisted Ferret's right with the Biblical lingos - and then you had the Vulgate in Latin and then later on the Douay-Rheims in English. BTW Twisted Ferret, did you get my reply to your email the other day? I've been having some problems with my email service, so sorry if it didn't get thru, buit I did reply!

One more thing Abe, and anybody else who is curious - I ask of you this one thing - TRY IT. Pray 5 decades of the Rosary every day for a month. After that, you may even like to keep going longer, in which case, I ask of you this - pray 5 decades of the Rosary for 6 months. Or a year. Or the rest of your life.

You can argue theory back and forth all day, but try the practical side of this discussion, and I am serious, man, cos this stuff is for real. Try it - at the very least all you can hope for is to prove me wrong!

God Bless,

Tri.

I have no doubt in the power of prayer and meditation, I can even comprehend to a degree how you feel, the reason I'm reaching out to you is because you're a believer, someone who can (hopefully) grasp the concept of God and has at least the potential to understand what it is I am saying and warning you about:

1. Jesus the Messenger of God, the man who devoted his life to God and the Worship of God and spreading the Message of God has been turned into an Idol, by dictionary definition even, an Idol to which people turn in prayer, when he did not pray to himself, but to God the One.

2.God is not a man or a woman or some THING here or there, but God is what everything is within, made of, existing by, God is everywhere, there is nothing that is not made of God, existing by God, completely dependant on God, God is no ones father, God is no ones son, God is God the Creator, the All Powerful, make no images of God, and God is not in the image of man, man is not in the image of God, strip all the images within God and there will be nothing but God, imageless, colorless, limitless. Jesus was in the image of man because he was a human being, created by God, God has no sons for God is not a man, God is not a son of himself either, God is far beyond these things.

quote:Originally posted by trichocereus pachanoi:

BTW Twisted Ferret, did you get my reply to your email the other day? I've been having some problems with my email service, so sorry if it didn't get thru, buit I did reply!

I got the reply to my question on the languages of the Rosary, but I'm afraid I've sent you yet another one - on the Mysteries, this time! I get the general idea that it's the concept behind the Mysteries that matters - i.e., for the Joyful Mysteries, something like that Jesus was sent down among us - but I've seen them formatted in so many different ways... I'd just like to know what the actual Catholic perspective on it was.

Oh, that reminds me... I was also wondering what the general Catholic perspective is on the so-called "Luminous Mysteries" proposed by Pope John Paul II. Are they widely accepted, or do many people still pray the traditional way?

Hmm... maybe I should join a Catholic forum... I'm going to drown you in questions! http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif) Feel free to ignore any you wish, and thanks again for bothering to, well, bother with me. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

I'm glad you're back Tri!

Yes, it's good to be back Abe!

Twisted Ferret, in regards to the Luminous Mysteries, you will find that officialy, obviously the Church stands by them - after all, the were instituted by the Holy Father. However, the faithful tend to be a bit more divided about it - most Traditional Catholics don't meditate on the Luminous Mysteries. Personally, I don't -but that's not to say that it would be wrong to, I just prefer to pray the Rosary in it's traditional form. There's not much difference, though - same prayers, you're simply meditating on Christ's works and deeds during His public life, which fits in nicely between the Nativity and the Passion.

It does tend to throw you out a day though, which is another reason why I don't meditate on the Luminous Mysteries.

To get into the whole messy thing would involve opening up the whole "Vatican II" can of worms, and it's sort of a motto of mine "I don't do Vatican II!".

For the record, I support Traditional Catholicism wholly, and believe it is good to live according to the rules in the older Catechisms (the Catechism of Pope St Pius X is a good one), but I still attend regular Novus Ordo Mass, etc - I'm not technically a Traditionalist or a Progressive, I'm kind of in the middle - I'd personally prefer the Church to return to the way it was, or at least go back to the old Mass, and put back in the things which were taken out.

But I digress... anyway a very good Catholic forum is at http://www.catholic-pages.com then click on "discussions", to get to the forums.

Thanks, and God Bless....

Tri.

[PS] Abe - Jesus is not a messenger of God, Jesus IS God, and He has been with God for all eternity - He existed long before He was made man. Referring to God as The Father is a metaphor to help our minds comprehend it - but we're not really able to. Explaining the Trinity is a very difficult thing - understanding of it comes through God, and it is through His amazing Grace that some people have been able to put it into words that make it clear for all of us - however, I am not one of them(!). But I will see if I can find some really good referneces for you - I'll post some quotes that can help to clear it up a bit better for you as soon as I can.

There is One God. On this, I (we) agree with you. Trying to understand how God could be three Persons in the One God, is like trying to understand Divinity itself. We just can't. We can reach a certain point, or level, of comprehension, but our minds probably couldn't handle the whole complexity and intricacies of it.

God Bless,

Tri.

quote:Originally posted by trichocereus pachanoi:

Yes, it's good to be back Abe!

Twisted Ferret, in regards to the Luminous Mysteries, you will find that officialy, obviously the Church stands by them - after all, the were instituted by the Holy Father. However, the faithful tend to be a bit more divided about it - most Traditional Catholics don't meditate on the Luminous Mysteries. Personally, I don't -but that's not to say that it would be wrong to, I just prefer to pray the Rosary in it's traditional form. There's not much difference, though - same prayers, you're simply meditating on Christ's works and deeds during His public life, which fits in nicely between the Nativity and the Passion.

It does tend to throw you out a day though, which is another reason why I don't meditate on the Luminous Mysteries.

To get into the whole messy thing would involve opening up the whole "Vatican II" can of worms, and it's sort of a motto of mine "I don't do Vatican II!".

For the record, I support Traditional Catholicism wholly, and believe it is good to live according to the rules in the older Catechisms (the Catechism of Pope St Pius X is a good one), but I still attend regular Novus Ordo Mass, etc - I'm not technically a Traditionalist or a Progressive, I'm kind of in the middle - I'd personally prefer the Church to return to the way it was, or at least go back to the old Mass, and put back in the things which were taken out.

But I digress... anyway a very good Catholic forum is at http://www.catholic-pages.com then click on "discussions", to get to the forums.

Thanks, and God Bless....

Tri.

[PS] Abe - Jesus is not a messenger of God, Jesus IS God, and He has been with God for all eternity - He existed long before He was made man. Referring to God as The Father is a metaphor to help our minds comprehend it - but we're not really able to. Explaining the Trinity is a very difficult thing - understanding of it comes through God, and it is through His amazing Grace that some people have been able to put it into words that make it clear for all of us - however, I am not one of them(!). But I will see if I can find some really good referneces for you - I'll post some quotes that can help to clear it up a bit better for you as soon as I can.

There is One God. On this, I (we) agree with you. Trying to understand how God could be three Persons in the One God, is like trying to understand Divinity itself. We just can't. We can reach a certain point, or level, of comprehension, but our minds probably couldn't handle the whole complexity and intricacies of it.

God Bless,

Tri.

What makes Jesus God, if he existed long before his human form did he exist alongside God? Why is Jesus called the son of God and why did Jesus pray to God?

"1:1 In the beginning was the Word: and the Word was with God: and the Word was God.



1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.



1:3 All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made.



1:4 In him was life: and the life was the light of men.



1:5 And the light shineth in darkness: and the darkness did not comprehend it.""- (The Gospel of St John , Douay-Rheims Version)

IN THE BEGINNING was the Word - and THE WORD WAS WITH GOD and THE WORD WAS GOD sort of sums it up, really.



And then just to be clear WHO the term "The Word" refers to;

"1:14 And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father), full of grace and truth." (also from St John, Douay-Rheims Version)

So we see clearly here, that Christ was in the beginning, with God, and was God - and through the power of the Holy Ghost, He became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man.

[This message has been edited by trichocereus pachanoi (edited 08-13-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by trichocereus pachanoi:

"1:1 In the beginning was the Word: and the Word was with God: and the Word was God.



1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.



1:3 All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made.



1:4 In him was life: and the life was the light of men.



1:5 And the light shineth in darkness: and the darkness did not comprehend it.""- (The Gospel of St John , Douay-Rheims Version)

IN THE BEGINNING was the Word - and THE WORD WAS WITH GOD and THE WORD WAS GOD sort of sums it up, really.



And then just to be clear WHO the term "The Word" refers to;

"1:14 And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father), full of grace and truth." (also from St John, Douay-Rheims Version)

So we see clearly here, that Christ was in the beginning, with God, and was God - and through the power of the Holy Ghost, He became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man.



I agree up to a point. In our beginning was the Word, the Word was with God and Was God: I take this as a reference to the knowledge and the word sent forth for this reality and universe to begin, "Be".

Guess what! I also agree to the next part, in order for Jesus to manifest it was again the word of God "Be" and so it was.

But Jesus is no more God than a Tree or a Car or anything else, we are all within God, a part of God, manifested by God, dependant on God, existing only by God. God is our Originator.

But Jesus prayed to God, Worshipped God, and spread the message of God: Jesus was not God, nor does God have sons: For God is not a Man, but God is the Creator of All things, the Lord of Jesus and the one Jesus worshipped and prayed to and asked for help from.

God made Jesus by saying "Be" just as God made Adam and the Universe. All things are a part of God but no one thing is the whole of God as God is the All Encompassing.

Now here is another perspective, Enjoy!:

003.035

When the wife of 'Imran said: My Lord! I have vowed unto Thee that which is in my belly as a consecrated (offering). Accept it from me. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Hearer, the Knower!

When she was delivered, she said: "O my Lord! Behold! I am delivered of a female child!"- and Allah knew best what she brought forth- "And no wise is the male Like the female. I have named her Mary, and I commend her and her offspring to Thy protection from the Evil One, the Rejected."

And her Lord accepted her with full acceptance and vouchsafed to her a goodly growth; and made Zakariya her guardian. Whenever Zakariya went into the sanctuary where she was, he found that she had food. He said: O Marium! Whence cometh unto thee this (food)? She answered: It is from God. God giveth without stint to whom He will.

There did Zakariya pray to his Lord; he said: My Lord! grant me from Thee good offspring; surely Thou art the Hearer of prayer.

While he was standing in prayer in the chamber, the angels called unto him: "God doth give thee glad tidings of Yahya (John), witnessing the truth of a Word from God, and (be besides) noble, chaste, and a prophet,- of the (goodly) company of the righteous."

He said: My Lord! How can I have a son when age hath overtaken me already and my wife is barren? (The angel) answered: So (it will be). God doeth what He will.

He said: My Lord! appoint a sign for me. Said He: Your sign is that you should not speak to men for three days except by signs; and remember your Lord much and glorify Him in the evening and the morning.

And when the angels said: O Marium! surely God has chosen you and purified you and chosen you above the women of of the world.

O Marium! keep to obedience to your Lord and humble yourself, and bow down with those who bow.

This is of the announcements relating to the unseen which We reveal to you; and you were not with them when they cast their pens (to decide) which of them should have Marium in his charge, and you were not with them when they contended one with another.

When the angels said: O Marium, surely God gives you good news with a Word from Him (of one) whose name is the '. Messiah, Isa son of Marium, worthy of regard in this world and the hereafter and of those who are made near.

"He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be of the righteous."

She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: God createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!

And He will teach him the Book and the wisdom and the Taurat and the Injeel.

"And (appoint him) a messenger to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by God's leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by God's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;

And a verifier of that which is before me of the Taurat and that I may allow you part of that which has been forbidden to you, and I have come to you with a sign from your Lord therefore be careful of (your duty to) God and obey me.

"'It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.'"

When Isa found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to(the work of) God?" Said the disciples: "We are God's helpers: We believe in God, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.

"Our Lord! we believe in what Thou hast revealed, and we follow the Messenger; then write us down among those who bear witness."

And they planned and God (also) planned, and God is the best of planners.

And when God said: O Isa, I am going to terminate the period of your stay (on earth) and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, so l will decide between you concerning that in which you differed.

"As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

"As to those who believe and work righteousness, God will pay them (in full) their reward; but God loveth not those who do wrong."

"This is what we rehearse unto thee of the Signs and the Message of Wisdom."

The similitude of Isa before God is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was.

The truth from your Lord, so be not of the disputers.

If any one disputes in this matter with thee, now after (full) knowledge Hath come to thee, say: "Come! let us gather together,- our sons and your sons, our women and your women, ourselves and yourselves: Then let us earnestly pray, and invoke the curse of God on those who lie!"

This is the true account: There is no god except God; and God-He is indeed the Exalted in Power, the Wise.

But if they turn back, God hath full knowledge of those who do mischief.

Say: O People of the Scripture! Come to an agreement between us and you: that we shall worship none but God, and that we shall ascribe no partner unto Him, and that none of us shall take others for lords beside God. And if they turn away, then say: Bear witness that we are they who have surrendered to God.

Ye People of the Book! Why dispute ye about Abraham, when the Taurat and the Injeel Were not revealed Till after him? Have ye no understanding?

Ah! Ye are those who fell to disputing (Even) in matters of which ye had some knowledge! but why dispute ye in matters of which ye have no knowledge? It is God Who knows, and ye who know not!

Ibrahim was not a Jew, nor yet a Christian; but he was an upright man who had surrendered (to God), and he was not of the idolaters.

Most surely the nearest of people to Ibrahim are those who followed him and this Prophet and those who believe and Allah is the guardian of the believers.

It is the wish of a section of the People of the Book to lead you astray. But they shall lead astray only themselves, and they do not perceive!

O People of the Scripture! Why disbelieve ye in the revelations of God, when ye bear witness?

)

There is more on Jesus but thats a little sampler for you.

Jesus was the worshipper of God, the Servant of God, who was bringing the message of God to the people. Everything that exists is made of God, no one part is greater than the next and God is not a man that he should have sons or be a son, but God is God the Creator, the All Powerful and Jesus prayed to and surrendered to God.

First off as usual, sorry for taking so long to post... it's just one thing after another around here(!)

I don't see how quotation from what I would only perceive to be misguided heresy is supposed to make me abandon what I know top be God's Truth, but I do appreciate that you believe in what you are saying to the degree that you feel compelled to share it with others - which is exactly what I have been doing with this thread. However, I am afraid that you are wrong. I converted to Catholicism, when people from other faiths and religions had been trying to convert me to their way of belief. However, God converted me to the Roman Catholic Church. He has led me here, by showing me the way. I have felt, and continue to feel, in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, in the Rosary, and in all of the Seven Sacraments, the Graces of God. I have never felt such things anywhere else, regardless of who has told me that I would. Also, and I mean this in the least offensive way possible, but for a religion that claims to be peaceful, Islam seems to me to be a pretty violent faith - I read this article on a news website today;

Al Qaeda called on non-Muslims especially in the United States to convert to Islam and abandon their 'misguided' ways or else suffer, according to a video tape posted on a website on Sunday (NZ time).

The speaker was identified as Azzam the American, also known as Adam Yahiye Gadahn - an Islamic convert from California wanted for questions by the FBI and who US authorities believe to be involved in a propaganda campaign for al Qaeda.

"To Americans and the rest of Christendom we say, either repent (your) misguided ways and enter into the light of truth or keep your poison to yourself and suffer the consequences in this world and the next," Gadahn said in English.

He appeared in the video dressed in a white turban and seated in front of a computer and books.

"But whatever you do don't attempt to spread you misery and misguidance to our lands," he said.

Al Qaeda's second-in-command Ayman al-Zawahri made a brief statement at the beginning of the tape - dated September 2006 - urging viewers to listen carefully to the message, entitled: "An Invitation to Islam".

Zawahri and Gadahn appeared to be speaking from different places, as Zawahri spoke in front of a black background.

Gadahn recited verses from the Muslim holy book the Koran in Arabic, then translated them into English and said Muslims needed to boost their faith to expel their countries' rulers.

"Muslims don't need democracy to rid themselves of their home grown despots and tyrants. What they do need is their Islamic faith, the sprit of jihad and the lifting of foreign troops and interference from their necks," he said, adding that God did not recognise a separation of religion and state.

Zawahri last appeared in a video in August in which he said that some leaders of Egypt's Gama'a Islamiya have joined al Qaeda. Gama'a Islamiya later denied his statement.

This sort of thing is worrying - did you know that the Crusades only began because Saracens (Muslims) started killing innocent Christians, and taking their land? Historical evidence backs this up if you don't take my word for it. I think, Abe, that you ought to try the Rosary, like I mentioned before - if only to test your own faith. I have tested my faith in this way, and it has all only served to strengthen my faith in the Truth. What is the worst that could happen?

God Bless you Abe,

Tri.

GENESIS 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: . . .

GENESIS 3:22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: . . .

GENESIS 11:7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language

MATTHEW 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost

MATTHEW 12:31 . . . All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy {against} the {Holy} Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

Notice several things

1.) When God says "us", plural

2.) We are to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. You would not baptize in a mortal's name.

3.) The last verse talks of blaspeming the Holy Spirit. You can only blaspheme God.

"First off as usual, sorry for taking so long to post... it's just one thing after another around here(!)"

No Problem Buddy!

"I don't see how quotation from what I would only perceive to be misguided heresy is supposed to make me abandon what I know top be God's Truth, but I do appreciate that you believe in what you are saying to the degree that you feel compelled to share it with others - which is exactly what I have been doing with this thread."

So it is misguided heresy to state that God is One and has no literal children?

"However, I am afraid that you are wrong. I converted to Catholicism, when people from other faiths and religions had been trying to convert me to their way of belief. However, God converted me to the Roman Catholic Church. He has led me here, by showing me the way. I have felt, and continue to feel, in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, in the Rosary, and in all of the Seven Sacraments, the Graces of God. I have never felt such things anywhere else, regardless of who has told me that I would."

Alright!

"Also, and I mean this in the least offensive way possible, but for a religion that claims to be peaceful, Islam seems to me to be a pretty violent faith - I read this article on a news website today; Al Qaeda called on non-Muslims especially in the United States to convert to Islam and abandon their 'misguided' ways or else suffer, according to a video tape posted on a website on Sunday (NZ time). The speaker was identified as Azzam the American, also known as Adam Yahiye Gadahn - an Islamic convert from California wanted for questions by the FBI and who US authorities believe to be involved in a propaganda campaign for al Qaeda. "To Americans and the rest of Christendom we say, either repent (your) misguided ways and enter into the light of truth or keep your poison to yourself and suffer the consequences in this world and the next," Gadahn said in English. He appeared in the video dressed in a white turban and seated in front of a computer and books. "But whatever you do don't attempt to spread you misery and misguidance to our lands," he said. Al Qaeda's second-in-command Ayman al-Zawahri made a brief statement at the beginning of the tape - dated September 2006 - urging viewers to listen carefully to the message, entitled: "An Invitation to Islam". Zawahri and Gadahn appeared to be speaking from different places, as Zawahri spoke in front of a black background. Gadahn recited verses from the Muslim holy book the Koran in Arabic, then translated them into English and said Muslims needed to boost their faith to expel their countries' rulers. "Muslims don't need democracy to rid themselves of their home grown despots and tyrants. What they do need is their Islamic faith, the sprit of jihad and the lifting of foreign troops and interference from their necks," he said, adding that God did not recognise a separation of religion and state. Zawahri last appeared in a video in August in which he said that some leaders of Egypt's Gama'a Islamiya have joined al Qaeda. Gama'a Islamiya later denied his statement."

What do statements by Al-Qaeda or the Klu Klux Klan have to do with our religions?

"This sort of thing is worrying - did you know that the Crusades only began because Saracens (Muslims) started killing innocent Christians, and taking their land?"

This is not entirely true but one of the things used as a reason to attack the region and murder entire communities of Muslims and Jews who were living peacefully with the Christians in the region. The motivation behind the Crusades was not entirely religious but majorly political as the Vatican hoped to gain control over the important region which would grant tremendous benefits. Crusaders in Germany at the time also murdered entire communities of Jews in a frenzy. The Crusades were not justified. It is generally not accepted by the Historical Community that the propaganda used by Crusader Christians was actually true.

From Wikipedia:

"A turning point in western attitudes towards the east came in the year 1009, when the Fatimid caliph of Cairo, al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah, had the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem destroyed. His successor permitted the Byzantine Empire to rebuild it under stringent circumstances, and pilgrimage was again permitted, but many stories began to be circulated in the West about the cruelty of Muslims toward Christian pilgrims; these stories then played an important role in the development of the crusades later in the century."

"The immediate cause of the First Crusade was Alexius I's appeal to Pope Urban II for mercenaries to help him resist Muslim advances into territory of the Byzantine Empire. In 1071, at the Battle of Manzikert, the Byzantine Empire had been defeated, and this defeat led to the loss of all but the coastlands of Asia Minor (modern Turkey). Although the East-West Schism was brewing between the Catholic Western church and the Greek Orthodox Eastern church, Alexius I expected some help from a fellow Christian. However, the response was much larger, and less helpful, than Alexius I desired, as the Pope called for a large invasion force to not merely defend the Byzantine Empire but also retake Jerusalem."

First Crusade

Full article: First Crusade

After Byzantine emperor Alexius I called for help with defending his empire against the Seljuk Turks, in 1095 at the Council of Clermont Pope Urban II called upon all Christians to join a war against the Turks, a war which would count as full penance. Crusader armies managed to defeat two substantial Turkish forces at Dorylaeum and at Antioch, finally marching to Jerusalem with only a fraction of their original forces. In 1099, they took Jerusalem by assault and massacred the population. As a result of the First Crusade, several small Crusader states were created, notably the Kingdom of Jerusalem. Following this crusade there was a second, unsuccessful wave of crusaders, the Crusade of 1101.

Second Crusade

Full article: Second Crusade

After a period of relative peace, in which Christians and Muslims co-existed in the Holy Land, Bernard of Clairvaux preached a new crusade when the town of Edessa was conquered by the Turks. French and German armies under Louis VII of France and Conrad III of Germany, marched to Asia Minor in 1147, but failed to accomplish any major successes, and indeed endangered the survival of the Crusader states with a foolish attack on Damascus. By 1149, both leaders had returned to their countries without any result.

Third Crusade

Full article: Third Crusade

In 1187, Saladin, Sultan of Egypt, recaptured Jerusalem. Pope Gregory VIII called for a crusade, which was led by several of Europe's most important leaders: Philip II of France, Richard I of England and Frederick I, Holy Roman Emperor. Frederick drowned in Cilicia in 1190, leaving an unstable alliance between the English and the French. Philip left, in 1191, after the Crusaders had recaptured Acre from the Muslims. The Crusader army headed down the coast of the Mediterranean Sea. They defeated the Muslims near Arsuf and were in sight of Jerusalem. However, the inability of the Crusaders to thrive in the locale due to inadequate food and water resulted in an empty victory. Richard left the following year after establishing a truce with Saladin. On Richard's way home, his ship was wrecked and he ended up in Austria. In Austria, his enemy, Duke Leopold, captured him, delivered him to Frederick's son Henry VI and Richard was held for a king's ransom. By 1197, Henry felt himself ready for a Crusade, but he died in the same year of malaria.

Fourth Crusade

Full article: Fourth Crusade

Jerusalem having fallen back into Muslim hands a decade earlier, the Fourth Crusade was initiated in 1202 by Pope Innocent III, with the intention of invading the Holy Land through Egypt. The Venetians, under Doge Enrico Dandolo, gained control of this crusade and diverted it to, first to the Christian city of Zara, then to Constantinople where they attempted to place a Byzantine exile on the throne. After a series of misunderstandings and outbreaks of violence, the city was sacked in 1204.

Albigensian Crusade

Full article: Albigensian Crusade

The Albigensian Crusade was launched in 1209 to eliminate the heretical Cathars of southern France. It was a decades-long struggle that had as much to do with the concerns of northern France to extend its control southwards as it did with heresy. In the end, both the Cathars and the independence of southern France were exterminated.

Children's Crusade

Full article: Children's Crusade

The Children's Crusade is a possibly fictitious or misinterpreted crusade of 1212. The story is that an outburst of the old popular enthusiasm led a gathering of children in France and Germany, which Pope Innocent III interpreted as a reproof from heaven to their unworthy elders. None of the children actually reached the Holy Land; they were all sold as slaves, settled along the route to Jerusalem, or died of hunger during the journey.

Fifth Crusade

Full article: Fifth Crusade

By processions, prayers, and preaching, the Church attempted to set another crusade on foot, and the Fourth Council of the Lateran (1215) formulated a plan for the recovery of the Holy Land. A crusading force from Hungary, Austria, and Bavaria achieved a remarkable feat in the capture of Damietta in Egypt in 1219, but under the urgent insistence of the papal legate, Pelagius, they proceeded to a foolhardy attack on Cairo, and an inundation of the Nile compelled them to choose between surrender and destruction.

Sixth Crusade

Full article: Sixth Crusade

In 1228, Emperor Frederick II set sail from Brindisi for Syria, though laden with the papal excommunication. Through diplomacy he achieved unexpected success, Jerusalem, Nazareth, and Bethlehem being delivered to the Crusaders for a period of ten years. This was the first major crusade not initiated by the Papacy, a trend that was to continue for the rest of the century.

Seventh Crusade

Full article: Seventh Crusade

The papal interests represented by the Templars brought on a conflict with Egypt in 1243, and in the following year a Khwarezmian force summoned by the latter stormed Jerusalem. Although this provoked no widespread outrage in Europe as the fall of Jerusalem in 1187 had done, Louis IX of France organized a crusade against Egypt from 1248 to 1254, leaving from the newly constructed port of Aigues-Mortes in southern France. It was a failure and Louis spent much of the crusade living at the court of the Crusader kingdom in Acre. In the midst of this crusade was the first Shepherds' Crusade in 1251.

Eighth Crusade

Full article: Eighth Crusade

The eighth Crusade was organized by Louis IX in 1270, again sailing from Aigues-Mortes, initially to come to the aid of the remnants of the Crusader states in Syria. However, the crusade was diverted to Tunis, where Louis spent only two months before dying. The Eighth Crusade is sometimes counted as the Seventh, if the Fifth and Sixth Crusades are counted as a single crusade. The Ninth Crusade is sometimes also counted as part of the Eighth.

Ninth Crusade

Full article: Ninth Crusade

The future Edward I of England undertook another expedition in 1271, after having accompanied Louis on the Eighth Crusade. He accomplished very little in Syria and retired the following year after a truce. With the fall of Antioch (1268), Tripoli (1289), and Acre (1291) the last traces of the Christian rule in Syria disappeared.

Crusades in Baltic and Central Europe

The Crusades in the Baltic Sea area and in Central Europe were efforts by (mostly German) Christians to subjugate and convert the peoples of these areas to Christianity. These Crusades ranged from the 12th century, contemporaneous with the Second Crusade, to the 16th century.

Between 1232 and 1234, there was a crusade against the Stedingers. This crusade was special, because the Stedingers were not heathens or heretics, but fellow Roman Catholics. They were free Frisian farmers who resented attempts of the count of Oldenburg and the archbishop Bremen-Hamburg to make an end to their freedoms. The archbishop excommunicated them and the pope declared a crusade in 1232. The Stedingers were defeated in 1234.

If you want more information please read the full article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusade

"Historical evidence backs this up if you don't take my word for it. I think, Abe, that you ought to try the Rosary, like I mentioned before - if only to test your own faith. I have tested my faith in this way, and it has all only served to strengthen my faith in the Truth. What is the worst that could happen?"

I can not utter blasphemy against God, that is the worst that could happen. I can not state that God is a Man, God is a Father, God is a Son, God has Children or any other blasphemous variants.

To judge Islam based on the acts of certain people not upholding the religion or its teachings is not at all fair. People who disobey the religion of Islam are not Muslim's despite what they may call themselves.

Stating Crusade propaganda may also not be appropriate but hopefully the article will clear up the history about the Crusades.

"God Bless you Abe, Tri."

I don't find that it is wise in the least to shut your heart and mind to knowledge of other things based on prejudice or fear or whatever other reasons you may have.

I am closed to the possibility of Christianity, though I went to Catholic school for most of my childhood because I can not state that God is a man, in the image of man, has a literal son, has a literal mother, has literal children and any number of other things that might be blasphemy such as God is one but has 3 distinct parts or incarnations.

Here are some quotes from the Bible:

"I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me." [John 5:30]

"For I have not spoken on my own initiative; but the Father Himself who sent me, has given me commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak." [John 12: 49]

"And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God." [Mark 10:18]

"And it came to pass in those days, that he went out into a mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God." [Luke 6:12]

"But no one knows of that day and hour, not even the angels of heaven, but my Father only" [Mathew 24:36]

"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father" [Mark 13:32]

"And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; the Lord our God is one Lord" [Mark 12:29]

"You are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God” [John 8:31]

"So Jesus answered them, 'My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me' " [John 7:16]

"Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. "All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me." Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.' " [NIV, Matthew 4:8-10]

"But I do not seek My glory; there is One who seeks and judges." [John 8:50]

__________________

Jesus was not God but the Servant of God.

Please explain how what the Qur'an says is Misguided Heresy?

Do you think that the Bible does not include anything about the coming of Muhammed and the Qur'an?

Please read the following article, a segment from a book called Muhammed in the Bible:

http://www.islamawareness.net/Muhammed/muhamed_in_bible.html

Lucky Thirteen :

I was invited to the Transvaal (South Africa) to deliver a talk on the occasion of the birthday of the prophet Muhammed. Knowing that in that province of the Republic, the Afrikaans language is widely spoken, even by my own people, I felt that I ought to acquire a smattering of this language so as to feel a little "at home" with the people. I opened the telephone directory and began phoning the Afrikaans-speaking Churches. I indicated my purpose to the priests that I was interested in having a dialogue with them, but they all refused my request with "plausible" excuses.

No. 13 was my lucky number. The thirteenth call brought me pleasure and relief. A Dominee Van Heerden ("Dominee" is the Afrikaans equivalent of "priest") agreed to meet me at his home on the Saturday afternoon that I was to leave for Transvaal.

He received me on his verandah with a friendly welcome. He said if I did not mind, he would like his father-in- law from the Free State, a 70 year old man, to join us in the discussion. I did not mind. The three of us settled down in the Dominee's library.



Why Nothing?

I posed the question: "What does the Bible say about Muhammed?" Without hesitation he answered: "Nothing!" I asked: "Why nothing? According to your interpretation the Bible has so many things to say about the rise of Soviet Russia and about the Last Days and even about the Pope of the Roman Catholics?" He said: "Yes, but there was nothing about Muhammed!" I asked again: "Why nothing? Surely this man Muhammed who had been responsible for the bringing into being a world-wide community of millions of believers who, on his authority, believe in:

the miraculous birth of Jesus,

that Jesus is the Messiah,

that he gave life to the dead by God's permission, and that he healed those born blind and the lepers by God's permission.

Surely this book (the Bible) must have something to say about this great leader of men who spoke so well of Jesus and his mother Mary?"

The old man from the Free State replied: "My son, I have been reading the Bible for the past 50 years, and if there was any mention of him, I would have known it."



Not One by Name!

I inquired: "According to you, are there not hundreds of prophecies regarding the coming of Jesus in the Old Testament." The Dominee interjected: "Not hundreds, but thousands!" I said: "I am not going to dispute the thousand and one prophecies in the Old Testament regarding the coming of Jesus Christ, because the whole Muslim world has already accepted him without the testimony of any Biblical prophecy. Muslims have accepted the de facto Jesus on the authority of Muhammed alone, and there are in the world today no less than 900,000,000 followers of Muhammed, who love, respect, and revere Jesus Christ as a great Messenger of God without having the Christians to convince them by means of Biblical dialectics.

Out of the 'thousands' of prophecies referred to, can you please give me just one single prophecy where Jesus is mentioned by name? The term Messiah, translated as Christ, is not a name but a title. Is there a single prophecy where it says that the name of the Messiah will be Jesus, and that his mother's name will be Mary, that his supposed father will be Joseph the Carpenter; that he will be born in the reign of Herod the King, etc? No! There are no such details! Then how can you conclude that those 'Thousand' prophecies refer to Jesus, peace be upon him?"



What is Prophecy?

The Dominee replies: "You see, prophecies are word pictures of something that is going to happen in the future. When that thing actually comes to pass, we see vividly in these prophecies the fulfillment of what had been predicted in the past." I said: "What you actually do is that you deduce, you reason, you put two and two together." He said: "Yes." I said: "If this is what you have to do with a 'thousand' prophecies to justify your claim with regards to the genuineness of Jesus, why should we not adopt the very same system for Muhammed?" The Dominee agreed that it was a fair proposition, a reasonable way of dealing with the problem.

I asked him to open up Deuteronomy, chapter 18, verse 18, which he did. I read from memory the verse in Afrikaans, because this was my purpose in having a little practice with the language of the ruling race in South Africa.

"N Profeet sal ek vir hulle verwek uit die midde van hulle broers, soos jy is, en ek sal my woorde in sy mond le, en hy sy sal aan hulle se alle wat ekhom beveel." (Deut 18:18)

The English translation reads as follows:

"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and I will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him." (Deut 18:18)



Prophet Like Moses :

Having recited the verse in Afrikaans, I apologized for my uncertain pronunciation; the Dominee assured me that I was doing fine. I inquired: "To whom does this prophecy refer?" Without the slightest hesitation he answered: "Jesus!" I asked: "Why Jesus? his name is not mentioned here" The Dominee replied: "Since prophecies are word pictures of something that is going to happen in the future, we find that the wordings of this verse adequately describe him. You see, the most important words of this prophecy are 'soos jy is', 'like unto thee', or 'like you' - like Moses; and Jesus is like Moses."

I asked the Dominee: "In which way is Jesus like Moses?" The answer was: "In the first place Moses was a Jew and Jesus was also a Jew; secondly, Moses was a Prophet and Jesus was also a Prophet - therefor Jesus is like Moses and that is exactly what God had foretold Moses - 'soos jy is'."

"Can you think of any other similarities between Moses and Jesus?" I asked. The Dominee said that he could not think of any. I replied: "If these are the only two criteria for discovering a candidate for this prophecy of Deuteronomy 18:18, then in that case the criteria could fit any one of the following Biblical personages after Moses:- Solomon, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Malachi, John the Baptist etc., because they were also all Jews as well as Prophets. Why should we not apply this prophecy to any one of these prophets, and why only to Jesus?" The Dominee had no reply. I continued: "You see, my conclusions are that Jesus is most unlike Moses, and if I am wrong I would like you to correct me."



Three Unlike :

So staying, I reasoned with him: "In the first place Jesus is not like Moses, because, according to you, Jesus is God, but Moses is not God, is this true?" He said: "Yes." I said: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses!". "Secondly, according to you, Jesus died for the sins of the world, but Moses did not have to die for the sins of the world. Is this true?" He again said: "Yes." I said: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses!". "Thirdly, according to you, Jesus went to Hell for three days, but Moses did not have to go there. Is this true?" He answered meekly: "Y-e-s!" I concluded: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses!". "But Dominee,.." I continued: "..these are not hard, solid facts, they are mere matters of belief over which the little ones can stumble and fall. Let us discuss something very simple, very easy that if the little ones are called in to hear the discussion, would have no difficulty following it, shall we?" The Dominee was quiet happy at the suggestion.



Father and Mother

"Moses had a father and a mother. Muhammed also had a father and a mother. But Jesus had only a mother, and no human father. Is this true?" He said: "Yes." I said: "Daarom is Jesus nie soos Moses nie, maar Muhammed is soos Moses!" Meaning: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses, but Muhammed is like Moses!" (By now the reader will realize that I was using the Afrikaans language only for practice purposes. I shall discontinue its use in this narration).

Miraculous Birth

"Moses and Muhammed were born in the normal, natural course, i.e. the physical association of man and woman; but Jesus was created by a special miracle. You will recall that we are told in the Gospel of St. Matthew 1:18 "..before they came together, (Joseph the Carpenter and Mary) she was found with child by the Holy Ghost." And St. Luke tells us that when the good news of the birth of a holy son was announced to her, Mary reasoned: "How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? And the angel answered and said unto her, the Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the highest shall overshadow thee"(Luke 1:35).

The Holy Quran confirms the miraculous birth of Jesus, in nobler and sublimer terms. In answer to her logical question:

'O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?' The angel says in reply: 'Even so, Allah createth what He willeth: when He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it 'Be', and it is' (the Holy Quran, 3:47).

It is not necessary for God to plant a seed in man or animal. He merely wills it and it comes into being. This is the Muslim conception of the of birth of Jesus. (When I compared the Quran and the Biblical versions of the birth of Jesus to the head of the Bible Society in our largest city, and when I inquired: "Which version would you prefer to give your daughter, the Quranic version or the Biblical version?" The man bowed his head and answered: "The Quranic.")(see Christ in Islam for the author).

In short, I said to the Dominee: "Is it true that Jesus was born miraculously as against the natural birth of Moses and Muhammed?" He replied proudly: "Yes!" I said: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses, but Muhammed is like Moses. And God says to Moses in the Book of Deuteronomy 18:18 'Like unto thee', 'Like You', like Moses and Muhammed is like Moses."

Marriage Ties

"Moses and Muhammed married and had children, but Jesus remained a bachelor all his life. Is this true?" The Dominee said: "Yes." I said: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses, but Muhammed is like Moses."

Jesus Rejected by his People

"Moses and Muhammed were accepted as prophets by their people in their very lifetime. No doubt the Jews gave endless trouble to Moses and they murmured in the wilderness, but as a nation, they acknowledged that Moses was a Messenger of God sent to them. The Arabs too made Muhammed's life impossible. He suffered very badly at their hands. After 13 years of preaching in Mecca, he had to emigrate from the city of his birth. But before his demise, the Arab nation as a whole accepted him as the Messenger of Allah. But according to the Bible, "He (Jesus) Came unto his own, but his own revived him not"(John 1:11). And even today, after two thousand years, his people, the Jews, as a whole, have rejected him. Is this true?" The Dominee said: "Yes." I said: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses, but Muhammed is like Moses."

"Other Worldly" Kingdom

"Moses and Muhammed were prophets as well as kings. A prophet means a man who receives Divine Revelation for the Guidance of man and this Guidance he conveys to God's creatures as received without any addition or deletion. A king is a person who has the power of life and death over his people. It is immaterial whether the person wears a crown or not, or whether he was ever addressed as king or monarch: if the man has the prerogative of inflicting capital punishment, he is a king. Moses possessed such a power. Do you remember the Israelite who was found picking up firewood on Sabbath Day, and Moses had him stoned to death? (Numbers 15:13). There are other crimes also mentioned in the Bible for which capital punishment was inflicted on the Jews at the behest of Moses. Muhammed too, had the power of life and death over his people.

There are instances in the Bible of persons who were given gift of prophecy only, but they were not in a position to implement their directives. Some of these holy men of God who were helpless in the face of stubborn rejection of their message, were the prophets Lot, Jonah, Daniel, Ezra, and John the Baptist. They could only deliver the message, but could not enforce the Law. Prophet Jesus, peace be upon him, also belonged to this category.

The Christian Gospel clearly confirms this. When Jesus was dragged before the Roman Governor, Pontius Pilate, charged for sedition, Jesus made a convincing point in his defense to refute the false charge: Jesus answered: "My Kingdom is not of this world. If my Kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now is my Kingdom not from hence"(John 18:36).

This convinced Pilate (a pagan) that though Jesus might not be in full possession of his mental faculty, he did not strike him as being a danger to his rule. Jesus claimed a spiritual Kingdom only; in other words he only claimed to be a prophet. Is this true?" The Dominee answered: "Yes." I said: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses but Muhammed is like Moses."

No New Laws

"Moses and Muhammed brought new laws and new regulations for their people. Moses not only gave the Ten Commandments to the Israelites, but a very comprehensive ceremonial law for the guidance of his people. Muhammed comes to a people steeped in ignorance. They married their step-mothers and buried their daughters alive; drunkenness, idolatry, and gambling were the order of the day. There was hardly anything to distinguish between the 'man' and the 'animal' of the time. From this abject ignorance, Muhammed elevated the Arabs, in the words of Thomas Carlysle, 'Into torch-bearers of light and learning. To the Arab nation it was as a birth from darkness into light. Arabia first became alive by means of it. A poor shepherd people, roaming unnoticed in its deserts since the creation of the world. See, the unnoticed becomes world notable, the small has grown world-great. Within one century afterwards Arabia was at Granada on one hand and at Delhi on the other. Glancing in valor and splendor, and the light of Genius, Arabia shines over section of the world..'.

The fact is that Muhammed gave his people a Law and Order they never had before. As regards Jesus, when the Jews felt suspicious of him that he might be an impostor with designs to pervert their teachings. Jesus took pains to assure them that he had not come with a new religion - no new laws and no new regulations. I quote his own words: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law of the Prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot of one title shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.'(Mathew 5:17-18).

In other words he had not come with any new laws or regulation he came only to fulfill the old law. This what he gave the Jews to understand unless he was speaking with the tongue in his cheek trying to bluff the Jews into accepting him as a man of God and by subterfuge trying to ram a new religion down their throats. No! This Messenger of God would never resort to such foul means to subvert the Religion of God. He himself fulfilled the laws. He observed the commandments of Moses, and he respected the Sabbath. At no time did a single Jew point a finger at him to say: '"Why don't you fast' or 'why don't you wash your hands before you break bread', which charges they always levied against his disciples, but never against Jesus. This is because as a good Jew he honored the laws of the prophets who preceded him. In short, he had created no new religion and had brought no new law like Moses and Muhammed."

"Isn't this true?" I asked the Dominee, and he answered: "Yes." I said: "Therefore, Jesus is not like Moses but Muhammed is like Moses."

How they Departed

"Both Moses and Muhammed died natural deaths, but according to Christianity, Jesus was killed on the cross. Is this true?" The Dominee said: "Yes." I averred: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses but Muhammed is like Moses."

Heavenly Abode

"Moses and Muhammed both lie buried in earth, but according to you, Jesus is in heaven. Is this true? The Dominee agreed. I said: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses but Muhammed is like Moses."

Ishmael the First Born

Since the Dominee was helplessly agreeing with every point, I said: "Dominee, so far what I have done is to prove only one point out of the whole prophecy - that is proving the phrase 'Like unto thee' - 'Like You', like Moses'. The Prophecy is much more than this single phrase which reads as follows:

'I will raise them up a prophet from among their bretheren like unto thee..'

The emphasis is on the words "From among their brethren." Moses and his people, the Jews, are here addressed as a racial entity, as a whole, and as such their brethren would undoubtedly be the Arabs.

Abraham had two wives, Sarah and Hagar. Hagar bore Abraham a son, his first born, '..and Abraham called his son's name, which Hagar bare Ishmael.' (Genesis 16:15). 'And Abraham took Ishmael his son..' (Genesis 17:23). 'And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.' (Genesis 17:25).

Up to the age of thirteen Ishmael was the only son of Abraham, then God grants him another son through Sarah, named Isaac, who was very much the junior to his brother Ishmael.



Arabs and Jews

If Ishmael and Isaac are the sons of the same father Abraham, then they are brothers. And so the children of the one are the bretheren of the children of the other. The children of Isaac are the Jews and the children of Ishmael are the Arabs - so they are bretheren to one another. The Bible affirms: 'And he (Ishmael) shall dwell in the presence of all his bretheren.' (Genesis 16:12). 'And he (Ishmael) died in the presence of all his bretheren." (Genesis 25:18). The children of Isaac are the brethren of the Ishmaelites. In like manner Muhammed is from among the brethren of the Israelites because he was a descendant of Ishmael the son of Abraham. This exactly as the prophecy has it - "From among their bretheren" (Deut.18:18).

There the prophecy distinctly mentions that the coming prophet who would be like Moses, must arise not from the Children of Israel nor from among themselves, but from among their brethren. Muhammed therefore was among their bretheren!



Words in the Mouth

The prophecy proceeds further: '..And I will put my words into his mouth..' What does it mean when it is said 'I will put my words in your mouth'? You see, when I asked you (the Dominee) to open Deuteronomy chapter 18, verse 18, at the beginning, and if I had asked you to read, and if you had read, would I be putting my words into your mouth? The Dominee answered: "No." But, I continued: "If I were to teach you a language like Arabic, about which you have no knowledge, and if I asked you to read or repeat after me what I utter i.e. "Say: 'He is Allah the One and Only; Allah, the eternal absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; and there is none like unto Him.' (the Holy Quran 112:1-4) (I read them in Arabic). Would I not be putting these unheard words of a foreign tongue which you utter, into your mouth?" The Dominee agreed that it was indeed so. "In an identical manner", I said: "The words of the Holy Quran, the Revelation vouchsafed by the Almighty God to Muhammed, were revealed.

History tells us that when Muhammed was forty years of age he was in a cave some three miles north of the City of Mecca. In the cave the Archangel Gabriel commands him in his mother tongue: 'Eqra!', which means 'Read!', or 'Recite!' Muhammed was terrified, and in his bewilderment replied that he was not learned!. The angel commands him a second time with the same result. For the third time the angel continues. Now Muhammed, grasps that what was required of him was to repeat! to rehearse! And he repeats the words as they were put into his mouth:

'Read! In the Name of the Lord and Charisher, Who Created. Created man from a (mere) clot of congealed blood: Read! and thy Lord is the Most Bountiful, He Who taught (the use of) the pen, taught man that which he new not". (the Holy Quran 96:1-5).

These are the first five verses which were revealed to Muhammed, which now occupy the beginning of the 96th chapter of the Holy Quran.

Unlettered Prophet

Muhammed's experience in the Cave of Hira, and his response to that first Revelation is the exact fulfillment of another Biblical Prophecy. In the Book of Isaiah, chapter 29, verse 12, we read: 'And the Book is delivered to him that is not learned' (Isaiah 29:12). 'The Unlettered prophet' (the Holy Quran 7:158). And the Biblical verse continues: 'Saying, read this, I pray thee:' 'And he saith, I am not learned.'. 'I am not learned.' is the exact translation of the Arabic words which Muhammed uttered twice to the Holy Spirit, the Archangel Gabriel, when he was commanded: 'Read!').

Let me quote the verse in full without a break as found in the King James Version, or the Authorised Version as it is more popularly know: 'And the Book is delivered to him that is no learned, saying: 'Read this I pray thee'. And he saith: 'I am not learned.' ' (Isaiah 29:12).



Important note : It may be noted that there were no Arabic Bibles in existence in the 6th century of the Christian Era when Muhammed lived and preached. Besides, he was absolutely unlettered and unlearned. He never knew how to read and write Arabic, his own language, let alone knowing a completely different one.

'He does not speak (aught) of (his own) desire: It is no less than inspiration sent down to him. He was taught by One Mighty in Power' (the Holy Quran 53:3-5).

Without any human learning, 'he put to shame the wisdom of the learned'.



Grave Warning

"See!" I told the Dominee, "how the prophecies fit Muhammed like a glove. We do not have to stretch prophecies to justify their fulfillment in Muhammed." The Dominee replied, "All your expositions sound very well, but they are of no real consequence, because we Christians have Jesus Christ the incarnate God, who has redeemed us from the Bondage of Sin!" I asked: "Not important? God didn't think so! He had His warnings recorded in the scriptures. God knew that there would be people like you who will light-heartedly discount His words, so He followed up Deuteronomy 18:18 with a dare warning:

'And it shall come to pass (it is going to happen), that whosoever will not hearken unto My words which he shall speak in My Name, I will require if of him.'

(In the Catholic Bible the ending words are 'I will be the revenger', 'I will take revenge!'). "Does not this terrify you? God Almighty is threatening revenge! We shake in our pants if some hoodlum threatens us, yet you have no fear of God's warning?"

Miracle of Miracles! in the verse 19 of Deuteronomy chapter 18, we have a further fulfillment of the prophecy in Muhammed! Note the words '..My words which he shall speak in My Name'. In whose name is Muhammed speaking?" I opened Yusuf Ali's translation of the Holy Quran, at chapter 114, Surat An-Nas, or The Chapter of Mankind, the last chapter of the Quran, and showed him the formula at the head of the chapter, and the meaning:

'In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful'.

And the heading of chapter 113, and the meaning: 'In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful'. And every chapter downwards 112, 111, 110,..was the same formula and the same meaning on every page, because the end surahs (chapters) are short and take about a page each. And what did the prophecy demand? '..Which he shall speak in My Name'; and in whose name does Muhammed speak? In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

The Prophecy is being fulfilled in Muhammed to the letter; every chapter of the Holy Quran except the 9th begin with the formula: 'In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful'. The Muslim begins his every lawful act with the Holy formula. But the Christian begins: 'In the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.'

Concerning Deuteronomy chapter eighteen, I have given you more than 15 reasons as to how this prophecy refers to Muhammed and not to Jesus.



Baptist Contradicts Jesus

In New Testament times, we find that the Jews were still expecting the fulfillment of the prophecy of One like Moses, refer John 1:19-25.

When Jesus claimed to be the Messiah of the Jews, the Jews began to esquire as to where was Elias? The Jews had a parallel prophecy that before the coming of the Messiah, Elias must come first in his second coming. Jesus confirms this Jewish belief:

"Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. But I say unto you, that Elias is come already, and they knew him not,.. then the Disciples understood that he spoke unto them of John the Baptist." (Mathew 17:11-13).

According to the New Testament the Jews were not the ones to swallow the words of any would-be Messiah. In their investigations they underwent intense difficulties in order to find their true Messiah. And this the Gospel of John confirms: "And this is the record of John (the Baptist), when the Jews sent priests and levites from Jerusalem to ask him, 'Who art thou?', and he confessed and denied not; but confessed, 'I am not the Christ' " (This was only natural because there can't be two Messiahs at the same time. If Jesus was the Christ then John couldn't be the Christ!) "And they asked him: 'What then? Art thou Elias?' And he saith: 'I am not' " Here John the Baptist contradicts Jesus! Jesus says that John is Elias and John denies that he is what Jesus ascribes him to be. One of the two (Jesus or John), God forbid!, is definitely not speaking the truth!

On the testimony of Jesus himself, John the Baptist was the greatest of the Israelite prophets: "Verily I say unto you, among them that are born of women, there has not risen a greater than John the Baptist" (Matthew 11:11).

We Muslims know John the Baptist as Yahya. We revere him as a true prophet of Allah. The Holy Prophet Jesus known to us as Eesa, is also esteemed as one of the mightiest messenger of the Almighty. How can we Muslims impute lies to either of them? We leave this problem between Jesus and John for the Christians to solve, for their "Sacred Scriptures abound in discrepancies which they have been glossing over as the 'dark sayings of Jesus' " (See the Times Magazine December 30th, 1974, article How true is the Bible?).

We Muslims are really interested in the last questions posed to John the Baptist by the Jewish elite - Art thou that prophet? And he answered, "No."(John 1:21).



Three Questions!

Please note that three different and distinct questions were posed to John the Baptist, and to which he gave three emphatic No's as answers. To recapitulate:

"Art thou the Christ?"

"Art thou Elias ?"

"Art thou that Prophet?"

But the learned men of Christendom somehow only see two questions implied here. To make doubly clear that the Jews definitely had three separate prophecies in their minds when they were interrogating John the Baptist. Let us read the remonstrance of the Jews in the verses following:

"And they asked him, and said unto him: 'Why baptizest thou then, if

thou be not that Christ..

nor Elias..

neither that Prophet ?' "

(John 1:25).

The Jews were waiting for the fulfillment of three distinct prophecies: a. the coming of Christ. b. the coming of Elias, and c. the coming of that Prophet.



"That Prophet"

If we look up any Bible which has a concordance or cross-references, then we will find in the marginal note where the words the Prophet, or that Prophet occur in John 1:25, that these words refer to the prophecy of Deuteronomy 18:15 and 18. And that that Prophet - the Prophet like Moses - "Like unto thee", we have proved through overwhelming evidence that he was Muhammed and not Jesus!

Muslims are not denying that Jesus was the Messiah, which word is translated as Christ. We are not contesting the Thousand and One Prophecies which the Christians claim abound in the Old Testament foretelling the coming of the Messiah. What we say is that Deuteronomy 18:18 does not refer to Jesus Christ but it is an explicit prophecy about the prophet Muhammed!."

The Dominee, very politely parted with me by saying that it was a very interesting discussion and he would like me very much to come one day and address his congregation on the subject. A decade and half has passed since then but I am still awaiting that privilege.

I believe the Dominee was sincere when he made the offer, but prejudices die hard, and who would like to loose his sheep?



The Acid Test

To the Lambs of Christ I say, why not apply that acid test which the Master himself wanted you to apply to any would be claimant to prophethood? He had said:

"By their fruits ye shall know them. Do men gather grapes from the thorns, of figs from the thistles? Every good tree will bear good fruit and every evil tree will bear evil fruit... By their fruits ye shall know them". (Mathew 7:16-20).

Why are you afraid to apply this test to the teachings of Muhammed? You will find in the Last Testament of God, the Holy Quran, the true fulfillment of the teachings of Moses and Jesus which will bring to the world the much needed peace and happiness. George Bernard Shaw was quoted as saying:

"If a man like Muhammed were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world, he would succeed in solving its problems that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness."

The weekly news magazine Time dated July 15, 1974, carried a selection of opinions by various historians, writers, military men, businessmen an others on the subject: "Who were History's Great Leaders?" Some said that it was Hitler; others said Gandhi, Buddha, Lincoln and the like. But Jules Masserman, a United States psychoanalyst, put the standards straight by giving the correct criteria wherewith to judge. He said: "Leaders must fulfill three functions:

Provide for the well-being of the led,

Provide a social organization in which people feel relatively secure, and

Provide them with one set of beliefs."

With the above three criteria he searches history and analyses Hitler, Pasteur, Gaesar, Moses, Confucius and the lot, and ultimately concludes: "People like Pasteur and Salk are leaders in the first sense. People like Ghandi and Confucius, on one hand, and Alexander, Caesar, and Hitler on the other, are leaders in the second, and perhaps the third sense. Jesus and Buddha belong in the third category alone. Perhaps the greatest leader of all times was Muhammed, who combined all three functions. To a lesser degree, Moses did the same."

According to the objective standards set by the professor of the Chicago University, Jesus and Buddha are nowhere in the picture of the "Great Leaders of Mankind", but by a queer coincidence groups Moses and Muhammed together, thus adding further weight to the argument that Jesus is not like Moses, but Muhammed is like Moses. Deut 18:18 "Like unto thee", like Moses!

In conclusion, I end with a quotation of a Christian Reverend the commentator of the Bible, followed by that of his Master:

"The ultimate criterion of a true prophet is the moral character of his teaching." (Prof. Dummelow).

"By their fruits ye shall know them." (Jesus Christ)

A concluding suggestion : come let us reason together!

"Say: 'O People of the Book! Come to common terms as between us and you: that we worship none but Allah (God); that we associate no partners with him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, lords and patrons other than Allah (God)'. If then they turn back, say: 'Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (Bowing to God's Will).' " (the Holy Quran 3:64)

People of the Book is the respectful title given to the Jews and the Christians in the Holy Quran. The Muslims are here commanded to invite, O People of the Book!, O Learned People!, O People who claim to be the recipients of Divine Revelation, of a Holy Scripture; let us gather together onto a common platform, "that we worship none but Allah (God)", because none but God is worthy of worship, not because "The Lord thy God is a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me." (Exodus 20:25). But because He is our Lord and Cherisher, our Sustainer and Evolver, worthy of all praise, prayer and devotion.

In the abstract the Jews and the Christians would agree to all the three propositions contained in this Quranic verse. In practice they fail. Apart from doctrinal lapses from the unity of the One True God, Allah, may He be praised, there is the question of a consecrated Priesthood (among the Jews it was hereditary also), as if a mere human being - Cohen or Pope, or Priest, or Brahuman, - could claim superiority apart from his learning and the purity of his life, or could stand between man and God in some special sense. Islam does not recognize priesthood!.

The Creed of Islam is given to us here in a nutshell from Holy Quran:

"Say ye: 'We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes (of the Children of Israel), And that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) Prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to Allah (in Islam).' " (the Holy Quran 2:136).

The Muslim position is clear. The Muslim does not claim to have a religion peculiar to himself. Islam is not a sect or an ethnic religion. In its view all religion is one, for the Truth is one:

"It was the same religion preached by all the earlier prophets." (the Holy Quran 42:13).

It was the truth taught by all the inspired Books. In essence it amounts to a consciousness of the Will and Plan of God and a joyful submission to that Will and Plan. If anyone wants a religion other than that, he is false to his own nature, as he is false to God's Will and Plan. Such a one cannot expect guidance, for he has deliberately renounced guidance.

(I hope that you manage to read this post and the entire article and please understand that even the Bible has predicted the coming of Muhammed, you should read the Qur'an

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/

Understand that this could very well be God attempting to continue to guide you further on the right path, to close your heart and turn away would be a mistake.

Or it may be Satan, attempting to Tempt you off the path by stating that God is One with no Children and that God is far beyond having children, and that you should pray and worship God throughout the day and do right and give charity...that definately sounds like the message of Satan doesn't it?

Please read this entire post, please respond to me, and please don't close your heart, your eyes, your ears, to the message, read the Qur'an, it can't harm you, read it in full and listen to its words, see if they can penetrate your heart, this is not going to REMOVE your Faith this is going to INCREASE IT and put you on a straighter path.

Peace be unto you, I hope you get a chance to read all this soon.

read the first part of your post, mate, sorry if I came across a little "aggressive", I didn't realise how it would sound out loud, if you get what I mean(!) By "misguided heresy" I was referring to what I would perceive the Q'uran(sp?) to be - I am not saying that's what it is, simply that as a follower of another Faith, that is what it would seem to be to me. If that makes sense....

In regards to the Crusades, this guy is a historian who specialises in the Crusades...

The TFP's Crusade Magazine recently did an interview with accomplished medieval historian Professor Thomas Madden of St. Louis University, to dispel some common myths concerning the Crusades. The text of this interview is transcribed below.

1. Some authors contend the Crusades were wars of aggression against a peaceful Muslim world. What is your position in this matter?

It is difficult to see how anyone familiar with the sources could make such a claim. The original goal of the First Crusade, as it was annunciated in the papal call as well as numerous crusader charters, was to respond to Muslim aggression against Christians in the East and to restore those lands taken by Muslims to their Christian owners.



2. Many adversaries of the Crusades claim that, although Crusaders wore crosses and religious symbols, their only goal was to gain riches and territories. What is your opinion on the matter?

This is a fairly old-fashioned view, now largely rejected by scholars. It was based on a Victorian experience with colonialism that has no relationship at all to the medieval Crusades. We now know that crusading was almost never profitable. Crusaders often impoverished themselves and their families in order to pay for their expeditions. Whatever booty they received (and the Crusades were notoriously bad for plunder) was more than offset by their expenses. The vast majority of Crusaders had no interest in remaining in the East, but rather fulfilled their vows and returned home as soon as they were able.



During the interview, Prof. Madden declared: "I have no doubt that had there been no Crusades at all that western Europe would have been conquered by Muslims in much same fashion as southeastern Europe was."

3. Some accuse the Crusades of being a sort of medieval colonialism disguised in religious trappings. Is this true and could you comment on this?

Colonialism, if it is to have any meaning at all, requires certain things: most importantly a mother country that funds and directs the colonial expansion, a colonial government linked to a home government, and policy of colonization or exploitation in the colony. The Crusades had none of these things. No mother country supported the Crusades. Rather they were funded and undertaken by individuals across Christendom for the benefit of their souls and their co-religionists overseas. The governments in the Crusaders States were independent, with no direct ties to any European countries. And the Europeans had no policy of colonization or exploitation in the East. Rather, the overriding purpose of the Kingdom of Jerusalem was to safeguard the Holy Places and the lives of Christian pilgrims coming to visit them.

4. Is the following thesis historically defensible: Although the West lost political control over the Holy Land and the near East after the seventh and last Crusade, the effort Christians made from the 11th to the 13th centuries broke the impetus of the Muslim offensive against Europe and thus prevented the European continent from becoming Islamic back in medieval times.

No, on several counts. The Seventh Crusade was by no means the last Crusade. They continued well into the sixteenth century. The famous Battle of Lepanto in 1571 was a Crusade. Catholics did lose the mainland, but they held onto Cyprus and Rhodes for centuries. I believe it is fair to say, however, that the Crusades did slow the advance of Muslim Empires – namely the Ottoman Empire – into Europe just long enough to allow Europeans to effectively defend themselves. I have no doubt that had there been no Crusades at all that western Europe would have been conquered by Muslims in much same fashion as southeastern Europe was.

5. The Fourth Crusade is one of the most maligned of the Crusades. This is the Crusade you have studied in depth. Could you comment on some of the myths about the Fourth Crusade?

The biggest myth is that the Crusade was purposely diverted from its original goal – either by Pope Innocent III or Doge Enrico Dandolo – in order to conquer Constantinople. In fact, on several occasions the pope forbade the crusaders to go to Constantinople and once they were there, forbade them to attack the city. It is also not true that the Crusaders were led to Constantinople by a hatred of the Greeks or an envy of their empire. Instead, they came to Constantinople at the invitation of a Greek claimant to the throne, who promised to help them on their Crusade. The Crusaders only attacked Constantinople after their Greek friend double-crossed them, refusing to pay their reward or to join the Crusade. Even then, they only initiated hostilities when the Greeks murdered their former friend and ordered the Crusaders to leave immediately without reward, support, or even food. The Fourth Crusade is a tragedy, but it is one in which the Greeks and Latins both played important parts.



And, in regards to the news article I posted in my last, the relevance was the dude threatening Christians not to try and convert people in the Middle East. I don't mean to accuse all Muslims of being like this, and apologise if I came across that way, but just found it worrying, and don't really know anybody from that religion who could explain to me what the deal is with that.

Will look over the rest of your post, and respond, shortly!

Dominus vobiscum!

Tri.

There are many other accounts that are not so biased towards the European Crusader's and accounts from the time, such as those written by the daughter of the Byzantine King and others which depict what in my opinion is more truth in the demeanor and behavior of the Crusaders.

There is not record of Muslim attacks on Christians other than those I mentioned in my post and the wikipedia article explained how the impulsive move of that one guy left a negative impression for years to come until it was decided to "take back" the holy land. What did the Jews do? They were murdered both in Europe and the Holy Land and civillians were killed without discrimination. There is absolutely no way to justify the move of the Crusaders.

It is most likely true that the Pope and Christian Nations under the Pope (who would heed his call) had hoped to conquer the Holy Land not for booty but for its important position in the world, trade, and tourism as Christians, Muslims, and Jews all traveled there to perform various visits, pilgrimages, and sometimes business. It was an extremely important port and to deny that as a motivation behind the Vatican's call is to be in a state of blissful denial.

When the Crusaders conquered the Holy Land there was a ruler, laws, and taxation placed and during the period in which they controlled the Holy Land there was a government in place which profited from the endevour while singular soldiers may not have benefited.

The depiction by the King's Daughter describes Crusaders as somewhat barbaric and crude northern warriors who seemed to have come as adventurers in hopes of not only glory in name but aquiring benefits. The war lust of the Age of Odin had not yet left the hearts of those who had accepted Christianity and the call of the Crusade.

The Crusades were not an immediate response to the sacking of the Church (which was rebuilt soon after) but a response to the call for help from the Byzantines to fellow Christians, they did not expect the Christian Armies to conquer the entire land but to help them fight back the advances of enemy armies in the area.

Using Crusader history or what those who claim to be a certain religion say is not the best way to verify the reality of something. You have in your capacity the ability to read the book which you deem is most likely misguided heresy, that is the Qur'an. It will not harm you in the least to read the book, see what it says, even read it with anger and hate towards it, read it to find all the errors and contradictions and evil in it, but read it, and then you can speak about Islam as a religion with authority.

And nor will the Rosary harm you, but yet you still refuse to pray it!

Anyway, to those who read this thread for information on the Rosary/those who pray the Rosary - The Society of St Pius X have organised a "spiritual bouquet" which will be presented to the Pope, of one million Rosaries. If you would like to participate, more information can be found on their website, www.sspx.org (http://www.sspx.org)

While I am not with the SSPX, I do support the cause, especially that of praying for the Tridentine Mass to be returned to all the faithful.

Abe - the book of mormon supposedly won't harm me, nor Anton La Vey's satanic bible, nor the bhagavad gita for that matter - yet I still do not read them. The time spent could be well better used reading the teachings of the Doctors of the Church for example.

Trust in God, and pray a great deal. It WILL become clear to you, if you truly trust in Our Lord and Our Lady, and allow them to help you.

Oh, and BTW, that information on the Crusades came from a renowned historian, who specialises in the Crusades. He knows what he is talking about.

Dominus Vobiscum!

here's a link to more meditations on the mysteries!

God Bless you,

Tri.

LINK: http://www.ourroserosary.com/mysteries.htm

Here is a link to the story of how Our Lady gave the Rosary to St Dominic.

LINK: http://www.theholyrosary.org/secret.html

God Bless,

Tri.

The Fifteen Promises of Mary to Christians Who

Recite the Rosary

Whoever shall faithfully serve me by the recitation of the rosary, shall receive signal graces.

I promise my special protection and the greatest graces to all those who shall recite the rosary.

The rosary shall be a powerful armor against hell, it will destroy vice, decrease sin, and defeat heresies.

It will cause virtue and good works to flourish; it will obtain for souls the abundant mercy of God; it will withdraw the hearts of men from the love of the world and its vanities, and will lift them to the desire of eternal things. Oh, that souls would sanctify themselves by this means.

The soul which recommends itself to me by the recitation of the rosary, shall not perish.

Whoever shall recite the rosary devoutly, applying himself to the consideration of its sacred mysteries shall never be conquered by misfortune. God will not chastise him in His justice, he shall not perish by an unprovided death; if he be just he shall remain in the grace of God, and become worthy of eternal life

Whoever shall have a true devotion for the rosary shall not die without the sacraments of the Church.

Those who are faithful to recite the rosary shall have during their life and at their death the light of God and the plentitude of His graces; at the moment of death they shall participate in the merits of the saints in paradise.

I shall deliver from purgatory those who have been devoted to the rosary.

The faithful children of the rosary shall merit a high degree of glory in heaven.

You shall obtain all you ask of me by the recitation of the rosary.

All those who propagate the holy rosary shall be aided by me in their necessities.

I have obtained from my Divine Son that all the advocates of the rosary shall have for intercessors the entire celestial court during their life and at the hour of death.

All who recite the rosary are my sons, and brothers of my only son Jesus Christ.

Devotion of my rosary is a great sign of predestination.

(Given to St. Dominic and Blessed Alan) Imprimatur:

+PATRICK J. HAYES. D.D.. Archbishop of New York



WHY the daily rosary?

Our Lady has 117 titles. She selected this title at Fatima:

"I am the Lady of the Rosary".

St. Francis de Sales said the greatest method of praying

IS - Pray the Rosary.

St. Thomas Aquinas preached 40 straight days in Rome,

Italy on just the Hail Mary.

St. John Vianney, patron of priests, was seldom seen without a rosary in his hand.

"The rosary is the scourge of the devil" - Pope Adrian VI.

"The rosary is a treasure of graces" - Pope Paul V.

Padre Pio the stigmatic priest said: "The rosary is THE WEAPON"

Pope Leo XIII wrote 9 encyclicals on the rosary.

Pope John XXIII spoke 38 times about our Lady and the Rosary. He prayed 15 decades daily.

St. Louis Marie Grignion de Montfort wrote:

"The rosary is the most powerful weapon to touch the

Heart of Jesus, Our Redeemer, who so loves His Mother."

If you wish to obtain a favor: -

Pray THE "54-day ROSARY NOVENA"...

Pray 3 nine day rosary novenas - 27 days of petition;

Pray 3 nine day rosary novenas - 27 days of thanksgiving.

Will you give 1% of 1440 minutes each day to God?

If so, pray the daily rosary in 15 minutes - 1% of 24 hours.

Later on, give 3% and pray entire 15 decade rosary.

Joyful, Sorrowful and Glorious Mysteries.



[Information taken from the "Pieta Prayerbook"]

In anticipation of October, the Month of the Rosary, I invite you all to pray fiteen decades of the Rosary, daily. The Rosary is truly a beautiful and powerful prayer, and those of you who give it a try will surely see the Truth which lies within!

God Bless,

Tri.

As November is the Month of the Holy Souls, I ask anybody and everybody out there, to pray, and include in your intentions with your rosaries, for the Holy Souls in Purgatory, and for the souls of all of the dead. It is epecially good to pray for your loved ones who have died, they need it more in Purgatory than they do most anywhere else!

God Bless!

Just had a thought. How about, if any body is interested, people start posting prayer requests on here, so more of us can pray for you/with you? If you just post them on here, I'll promise to include them with my rosaries as soon as I see them on here. God Bless,

Tri.

Hello my brother or sister in Christ,

I would like to pose a question for you, where in the Bible does it say to pray to the Saints for intercession? From where are these prayers derived?

quote:Originally posted by Truth is all:

Hello my brother or sister in Christ,

I would like to pose a question for you, where in the Bible does it say to pray to the Saints for intercession? From where are these prayers derived?

The Bible tells us that the dead are aware of our afairs on earth. There are places where it speaks of angels and the dead intervening..

I guess asking people to pray for you makes sense, so asking Saints in heaven to pray for you makes even more sense.

Thanks, Zman, I couldn't have put it better myself! God Bless!

Tri: Why do you tell Abrahim you are of another faith when you both have faith in the One that Is?

Hex,

A friend of mine said something to me once, which I think explains this rather well:

If I have a friend who is an Englishman, and you have a friend who is a Scotsman, can they both be the same friend?

How about if I have a friend that is Chinese and you have a friend that is Welsh?

If I have a sweatshirt that is black and you have a sweatshirt that is green, can they be the same sweatshirt?

So, then if I believe in a God, Who is One God, and yet also Three at the same time, and you believe in One God, Who is One and only One, can it be the same God?

Abrahim's beliefs and mine differed at a fundamental level, which is why I refer to us as belonging to different faiths. Maybe a more suitable term would have been "Creed", but I felt that faith sufficed.

The fundamental flaw in your analogy is that the sweatshirt and the friends are not supreme beings capable of flashing existence into nothing without the slightest effort. An all-powerful One would be able to be anything it wants, needs, or chooses to be, even something that would seemingly be mutually exclusive, simultaneously...so yes, your One that is Three could just as easily be Abrahim's One that is One, and just as easily be my One that is All.

God still can't do illogical things. Philosophy/theology are unchangeable, and God couldn't be two opposing religions' God.

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

The fundamental flaw in your analogy is that the sweatshirt and the friends are not supreme beings capable of flashing existence into nothing without the slightest effort. An all-powerful One would be able to be anything it wants, needs, or chooses to be, even something that would seemingly be mutually exclusive, simultaneously...so yes, your One that is Three could just as easily be Abrahim's One that is One, and just as easily be my One that is All.

Abe had faith that Christ was a prophet, as was Muhammed. I have faith that Christ Is the Living King, and Is One with the Father, and the Holy Ghost. We HAVE FAITH, in what we believe. Facts do not compel our belief, therefore they are based in faith. They are conflicting beliefs, compatible with each other to a certain degree, but incompatible on fundamental levels. Read Abe's posts, he believed that the Blessed Trinity was a blasphemous concept. And yet you claim that it is the same faith as mine? Your response to my last post, sounds like you are a semi-intellectual, trying to use your theological/philosophical terminology to pass on a view which is based in pure opinion. Is Buddhism the same faith as Catholicism? What about Jainism? Or how about Arianism? The latter being especially relevant given your comparison of a faith which does not believe in the Trinity, and one which does.

"But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking."

-Matthew 6:7

That's all I have to say to praying the rosary.

quote:Originally posted by trichocereus pachanoi:

Abe had faith that Christ was a prophet, as was Muhammed. I have faith that Christ Is the Living King, and Is One with the Father, and the Holy Ghost. We HAVE FAITH, in what we believe. Facts do not compel our belief, therefore they are based in faith. They are conflicting beliefs, compatible with each other to a certain degree, but incompatible on fundamental levels. Read Abe's posts, he believed that the Blessed Trinity was a blasphemous concept. And yet you claim that it is the same faith as mine? Your response to my last post, sounds like you are a semi-intellectual, trying to use your theological/philosophical terminology to pass on a view which is based in pure opinion. Is Buddhism the same faith as Catholicism? What about Jainism? Or how about Arianism? The latter being especially relevant given your comparison of a faith which does not believe in the Trinity, and one which does.

Well, have fun with you're superiority bullshit. I can't even taste the salt in you!

Also, by the way, I am no semi-intellectual. I'm a nutcase with not much better to do than bother the proud with their own bullshit.

Proud? I'm sorry if I came across that way, brother, I was just trying to answer your question as to why I referred to Abe as being from a different faith. I was out of line to resort to mudslinging, which is what calling you "semi-intellectual" basically was, in hindsight, and I apologise. Have I answered your earlier question though?

quote:Originally posted by chubbyman25:

"But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking."

-Matthew 6:7

That's all I have to say to praying the rosary.

Your Scripture quote is incorrect:

"7 And when you are praying, speak not much, as the heathens. For they think that in their much speaking they may be heard. 8 Be not you therefore like to them, for your Father knoweth what is needful for you, before you ask him." + Deo Gratias.

Repetition is not mentioned anywhere, sorry.

Greetings to all during this most beautiful season of Advent! Let's not forget, during our rejoicing and merriment, to pray for the souls of those who are no longer with us. the Bible tells us to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from their sins, and indeed, we should. If anybody wants to post their deceased loved one's names on here, or discreetly email me at trichocereus_pachanoi@hushmail.com if you would prefer, I would be glad to assist you in praying for their souls!

God Bless,

Tri.

quote:Originally posted by trichocereus pachanoi:

Your Scripture quote is incorrect:

"7 And when you are praying, speak not much, as the heathens. For they think that in their much speaking they may be heard. 8 Be not you therefore like to them, for your Father knoweth what is needful for you, before you ask him." + Deo Gratias.

Repetition is not mentioned anywhere, sorry. Yeah, what version of the Bible are you using? The KJV, which I quoted from, is largely considered to be the most accurate.

The Douay-Rheims is the only version of the Bible to have been proclaimed as being "free from doctrinal error," and what you must remember when quoting from a Protestant Bible, is that at the time of the translation commisioned by King James, the Reformers were trying to seek justification in the public eye for their faith, therefore in places they have used ambiguous translation in order to make the "Romish" Church look to be in error, when it is in fact, themselves. If you read the Douay-Rheims, you will notice several differences - the largets being in the number of books. The Protestants removed several of the Deuterocanonical books, because they spoke of things which proved the Church of Christ to be true, as opposed to the churches of Luther, Cranmer, or Zwingli. For instance, the books of the Maccabees, which speak of Purgatory (which is quite similar to your belief of spirit prison, as I understand it - please forgive me if I am incorrect in this statement, however, as I do not know a lot about your faith!). The Protestants then labelled these books as "Apocryphal". Apocrypha means lost. These books have never been lost, they have been in all complete Bibles ever printed. It was, largely, propaganda.

It would be quite ridiculous for me to quote the KJV, and contrary to my beliefs, as it is a Protestant translation, which was tailored to justify Protestant beliefs.

One might go so far as to say that the KJV is "rife with error," and one would almost certainly be correct.

What I like about the catholics is that they still continue to blatantly make up bullshit. It really demonstrates their conviction.

Where and how do you believe me to have made up bullshit? Chubbyman said that he thought the KJV was usually accepted as the most accurate translation. But why would a Catholic believe that a Protestant translation is more accurate than a Catholic translation? And I am telling the truth about the missing books - a Bible should have

73 books, the KJV does not.



Here's a small article on the Douay-Rheims:

The Douay-Rheims Bible is a scrupulously faithful translation into English of the Latin Vulgate Bible which St. Jerome (342-420) translated into Latin from the original languages. The Vulgate quickly became the Bible universally used in the Latin Rite (by far the largest rite of the Catholic Church).

St. Jerome, who was one of the four great Western Fathers of the Church, was a man raised up by God to translate the Holy Bible into the common Latin tongue of his day. He knew Latin and Greek perfectly. He was 1500 years closer to the original languages than any scholar today, which would make him a better judge of the exact meaning of any Greek or Hebrew word in the Scriptures. Besides being a towering linguistic genius, he was also a great saint, and he had access to ancient Hebrew and Greek manuscripts of the 2nd and 3rd centuries which have since perished and are no longer available to scholars today. St. Jerome's translation, moreover, was a careful, word-for-word rendering of the original texts into Latin.

The Latin Vulgate Bible has been read and honored by the Western Church for fifteen-hundred years! It was declared by the Council of Trent to be the official Latin version of the original. Hear what the Sacred Council decreed: "Moreover, the same Holy Council . . . ordains and declares that the old Latin Vulgate Edition, which, in use for so many hundred years, has been approved by the Church, be in public lectures, disputatious, sermons and expositions held as authentic, and so no one dare or presume under any pretext whatsoever to reject it." (Fourth Session, April 8, 1546). As Pope Pius XII stated in his 1943 encyclical letter Divino Afflante Spiritu, this means the Vulgate is "free from any error whatsoever in matters of faith and morals." And the Douay-Rheims bible is a faithful, word-for-word translation of the Latin Vulgate Bible of St. Jerome.

In their translation, the Douay-Rheims translators took great pains to translate exactly. Contrary to the procedure of the modern Bible translators, when a passage seemed strange and unintelligible they left it alone, even if obscure, and "let the chips fall as they may." The modern Bible translators, on the other hand, will often look at an obscure passage, decide what they think it means, then translate in words that bring out that meaning. The result is that the English is usually (not always!) easier to understand, but it is not necessarily what the Bible says; rather, it is their interpretation and understanding of what the Bible says. Moreover, the Holy Ghost may have hidden several additional meanings in the passage. Those meanings may well be completely translated out!

Sometimes the question is raised: Why translate from a translation (the Latin Vulgate) rather than from the original Greek and Hebrew? This question was also raised in the 16th century when the Douay-Rheims translators (Fr. Gregory Martin and his assistants) first published the Rheims New Testament. They gave ten reasons, ending up by stating that the Latin Vulgate "is not only better then al other Latin translations, but then the Greek text itself, in those places where they disagree." (Preface to the Rheims New Testament, 1582). They state that the Vulgate is "more pure then the Hebrew or Greek now extant" and that "the same Latin hath bene barre better conserved from corruption." (Preface to the Douay Old Testament, 1609).

The present Bible is the Challoner revision (1749-1752) of the Douay-Rheims Bible. Catholics owe the saintly Bishop Richard Challoner (1691-1781) a great debt of gratitude for undertaking this work. Challoner was one of those courageous priests who traveled around offering Mass secretly for small groups during the religious persecutions in England. Such Catholics needed a Bible, and had needed one for 100 years. The Douay-Rheims Bible had been printed a few times on the Continent but had never really spread to England. Some Catholics in England were even reading the King James version--a situation which Bishop Challoner knew had to be rectified.

Some of the passages in the original Douay-Rheims Bible were needlessly obscure. As an extreme example, Ephesians 6:12 read, "For our wrestling is not against flesh and bloud: but against Princes and Potestats, against the rectors of the world of this dankness, against the spirituals of wickedness in the celestials." The spellings were archaic, and the verses were not set off by new lines for clarity. Challoner rectified these problems, checking carefully against the Clementine Vulgate and the original-language texts. On the whole, Bishop Challoner's revisions were minor. He replaced certain anglicized Latin words and archaic words and expressions, rearranged the word order of the sentences, and yet maintained the overall word-for-word accuracy of the 16th/17th-century Douay-Rheims Bible.

The Challoner revision of the Douay-Rheims Bible was a godsend. It became the standard Catholic Bible in English until the mid-20th century (when the Confraternity Bible was published). It continued to be called the "Douay-Rheims" because of its similarity to the original Douay-Rheims Bible. The great work English Versions of the Bible, by Frs. Pope and Bullough, states that English-speaking Catholics the world over owe Dr. Challoner an immense debt of gratitude, for he provided them for the first time in history with a portable, cheap and readable version of the Bible, which has stood the test of 200 years of use. Moreover, it is more accurate than any modern Bible because it is based on ancient texts, no longer extant, which were "captured" and "frozen," so to speak, by St. Jerome (342-420) in his Latin Vulgate. The Douay-Rheims is thus the most reliable English-language Bible there is. We look forward to the day when the Christian world will rediscover this fact and come to a renewed appreciation of the monumental work of St. Jerome, of the Douay-Rheims translators and of Bishop Richard Challoner--men who were raised up by God to make the Bible available to the English-speaking world.

lol catholics are random

quote:Originally posted by bigsam656:

lol catholics are random

?

quote:Originally posted by trichocereus pachanoi:

The Douay-Rheims is the only version of the Bible to have been proclaimed as being "free from doctrinal error," and what you must remember when quoting from a Protestant Bible, is that at the time of the translation commisioned by King James, the Reformers were trying to seek justification in the public eye for their faith, therefore in places they have used ambiguous translation in order to make the "Romish" Church look to be in error, when it is in fact, themselves. If you read the Douay-Rheims, you will notice several differences - the largets being in the number of books. The Protestants removed several of the Deuterocanonical books, because they spoke of things which proved the Church of Christ to be true, as opposed to the churches of Luther, Cranmer, or Zwingli. For instance, the books of the Maccabees, which speak of Purgatory (which is quite similar to your belief of spirit prison, as I understand it - please forgive me if I am incorrect in this statement, however, as I do not know a lot about your faith!) Interesting, a lot there I didn't know. But yeah, purgatory is somewhat similar to my belief in spirit prison, though spirit prison is only a temporary abode. I wasn't aware that any translation of the Bible was considered free from error. I'll have to look more into that.

Damn. This stuff is heavy. What a huge load of energy expenditure within these diatribes.

Too bad all of this can never pay the rent. But I guess everyone has some sort of hobby.

Hobby-wise, I used to enjoy Britney Spears until she shaved it. And why in hell did Anna Kournakova have to get that damned tattoo? Can anyone explain the evil god that coerced her into that kind of free will?

Quite an impressive display of rules for the Rosary. If this catches on, all the wrong doers will never be able to get out of bed to commit crimes to pray over. It'll take too long to ask forgiveness. But I've just got to wonder about someone who can devote so much time and effort to making something so, so..."correct," when it is so open to intrepretation by so many.

I can I can just "click my way" outta' here, huh? I guess I will.

So long. No reply neccesary. None expected.

Apologies for my absence, and lack of replies, I have been pretty busy - these things happen, of course.

Chubbyman - Purgatory is also temporary, it ends when the soul has been "purged" so to speak. The logic behind it is simple: When one attends confession with contrition of heart, and sincerely repents, the state of mortal sin is removed, or absolved, and all that remains is the stain of sin. Hence confession remits the punishment of Hell, which is eternal, and replaces it with Purgatory, which cleanses the soul of the stain of sin, and allows a soul to enter into Heaven afterwards. Of course, certain acts, such as martyrdom, can gain a soul direct access to Heaven. This is why martyrs are automatically pronounced Beaties, and usually make it through to canonisation as well.

God Bless,

Tri.

Trainjustleft, I feel almost compelled to find something to respond to in your post, as it sounds as though you would like me to...?

The Rosary is a beautiful prayer, which I have personally experienced to be beneficial to myself and my circumstance. Daily prayer and meditation on the Mysteries has helped me grow closer to Our Lord, and also to Our Lady.

So the length of these diatribes is not a problem to me, to sit there and write, because I want to share what I have found in this prayer, with as many people as I can. It is natural to be skeptic of things like this, and I don;t begrudge you, but I urge you, to TRY IT! Just have a go, pray it daily for a month - it only takes 15 minutes a day, to meditate on one set of Mysteries (5 decades).

God Bless,

Tri.

As Ash Wednesday is this coming Wednesday, and with it comes the Christian's season of Lent, I invite you all to participate in an extra 5 decades daily, meditating on the Sorrowful Mysteries, in commemoration of Our Lord's Passion and Death for us all and our Salvation.

God Bless,

Tri.

Very interesting information and discussion.

conjuror

PS I lifted the first part of this and posted it on c22: http://c aught22.co m/forums/v iewtopic.php?t=339 (http: //caught22 .com/forum s/viewtopi c.php?t=33 9) Hopefully that's not a problem for anyone.

[This message has been edited by conjuror (edited 02-17-2007).]

No probs Conjuror, good to see ya spreading the message, and encouraging epople to participate in religious discussion!

I will catch up with you all during Lent!

God Bless,

Tri.

I just attended a conference held by Bishop Bernard Fellay, General Superior of the SSPX, on Sunday, and for those of you who remember the Million Rosaries Crusade way back in October, he informed us that the total amount of Rosaries prayed in the end was over 2.5 Million! Deo Gratias! Congrats, thanks, and keep praying em!

God Bless,

Tri.

SOme information on the Franciscan Crown/Seraphic Rosary:

Seraphic Rosary.)

A Rosary consisting of seven decades in commemoration of the seven joys of the Blessed Virgin (the Annunciation, Visitation, Birth of our Lord, Adoration of the Magi, Finding of the Child Jesus in the Temple, the Resurrection of Our Lord, and the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin and her Coronation in heaven), in use among the members of the three orders of St. Francis.

The Franciscan Crown dates back to the year 1422. Wadding tells us that a young novice who had that year been received into the Franciscan Order had, previous to his reception, been accustomed to adorn a statue of the Blessed Virgin with a wreath of fresh and beautiful flowers as a mark of his piety and devotion. Not being able to continue this practice in the novitiate, he decided to return to the world. The Blessed Virgin appeared to him and prevented him from carrying out his purpose. She then instructed him how, by reciting daily a rosary of seven decades in honour of her seven joys, he might weave a crown that would be more pleasing to her than the material wreath of flowers he had been wont to place on her statue. From that time the practice of reciting the crown of the seven joys became general in the order.

The manner of reciting the Franciscan Rosary is as follows: The Apostles' Creed, the Our Father, and three Hail Marys having been said as usual, the mystery to be meditated upon is introduced after the word Jesus of the first Hail Mary of each decade, thus: "Jesus, whom thou didst joyfully conceive", "Jesus, whom thou didst joyfully carry to Elizabeth", and so on for the remaining five decades, which are given in most manuals of Franciscan devotion. At the end of the seventh decade two Hail Marys are added to complete the number of years (72) that the Blessed Virgin is said to have lived on earth.

There are other ways of reciting the Crown but the one given seems to be in more general use. The plenary Indulgence attached to the recitation of the Franciscan Crown, and applicable to the dead, may be gained as often as the crown is recited.

It is not required that the beads be blessed, or in fact that beads be used at all, since the Indulgence is not attached to the material rosary, but to the recitation of the prayers as such. In 1905 Pope Pius X, in response to the petition of the Procurator General of the Friars Minor, enriched the Franciscan Crown with several new Indulgences that may be gained by all the faithful. Those who assist at a public recitation of the Franciscan Crown participate in all the Indulgences attached to the Seraphic Rosary that are gained by the members of the Franciscan Order. It is required, however, that beads be used and that they be blessed by a priest having the proper faculties. A translation of the pontifical Brief is given in "St. Anthony's Almanac" for 1909.

Shem Ham Forash... Hail Satan!

-Jove

quote:Originally posted by trichocereus pachanoi:

I just attended a conference held by Bishop Bernard Fellay, General Superior of the SSPX, on Sunday, and for those of you who remember the Million Rosaries Crusade way back in October, he informed us that the total amount of Rosaries prayed in the end was over 2.5 Million! Deo Gratias! Congrats, thanks, and keep praying em!

God Bless,

Tri.

SSPX..really?