So I was raised Lutheran my whole life, have completed "confirmation", and have been baptized.

I have many problems as far as the beliefs of my religion.

I believe in a God, one God. To tell you the truth, I don't know where i stand on a lot of religious issues, and furthermore, I don't understand how some people know where they stand on these issues; the most basic issues, like, "who's going to heaven/hell", "abortion: murder?", "reincarnation: fact or fiction" and a lot more.

I could tell you what i think, but it won't matter. Anyways, here are my main problems with the Christian Church.

- The Bible coiniciding with my deepest and most loving emotions as a human being, and how they contradict more often than not.

- How could Muslims, a people of great religion, all rooting from the same "God", be going to hell, according to the Christian Bible?

- The prevailing characteristic of narrow-mindedness which I encounter ever so frequently in the Christian Churches I sometimes visit, and with the Christians I talk to.

- The Christian Church's list of 'taboo' subjects.

- The general Right-Wing Christian view on modern issues in society and how they're wasting time, energy, and money in our country, and world for that matter.

- The Catholic Church, and in particular, closed minded Catholics.

quote:Originally posted by Mr. Tree:

So I was raised Lutheran my whole life, have completed "confirmation", and have been baptized.

I have many problems as far as the beliefs of my religion.

I believe in a God, one God. To tell you the truth, I don't know where i stand on a lot of religious issues, and furthermore, I don't understand how some people know where they stand on these issues; the most basic issues, like, "who's going to heaven/hell", "abortion: murder?", "reincarnation: fact or fiction" and a lot more.

I could tell you what i think, but it won't matter. Anyways, here are my main problems with the Christian Church.

- The Bible coiniciding with my deepest and most loving emotions as a human being, and how they contradict more often than not.

- How could Muslims, a people of great religion, all rooting from the same "God", be going to hell, according to the Christian Bible?

- The prevailing characteristic of narrow-mindedness which I encounter ever so frequently in the Christian Churches I sometimes visit, and with the Christians I talk to.

- The Christian Church's list of 'taboo' subjects.

- The general Right-Wing Christian view on modern issues in society and how they're wasting time, energy, and money in our country, and world for that matter.

- The Catholic Church, and in particular, closed minded Catholics.

Some of those tenses you used and your list format are confusing. For the first one, do you mean the bible contradicts some of your loving emotions?

Yes, there are many problems with religion. There are problems with christians, muslims, atheists, it doesn't matter. People are people. I'm not exactly sure what kind of replies you were hoping to get.

quote:Originally posted by Mr. Tree:

I believe in a God, one God. To tell you the truth, - How could Muslims, a people of great religion, all rooting from the same "God", be going to hell, according to the Christian Bible?

You ARE a Muslim. abrahimesker@hotmail.com, if you have MSN I'd like to talk to you about your beliefs. If you use AIM or YAHOO I can give you those adresses too or add you!

One thing, god does not exist.

quote:Originally posted by The Tormentor:

One thing, god does not exist.

To me that's like you're saying You don't exist, I don't exist, the computer screen doesn't exist, nor does anything. That is because I don't believe in a God that is some being floating in the sky but that it is what sustains our existance and everything within it.

To the original poster.

I am a practicing Lutheran as well, and I have tried to the best of my ability to answer your questions.

quote:- The Bible coiniciding with my deepest and most loving emotions as a human being, and how they contradict more often than not.



This is not only an attribute of the christian faith, but is actually the main platform on which the entire Christian Religion is built upon.

Allow me to explain...

In the bible, it mentions that human beings are enslaved to sin - essentially that our general natural course of action is sinful. For example: when you see a sexually attractive human being, you will carnally lust after him/her. This is entirely natural of human beings, just like many other things deemed sinful and wrong - even though they are normal courses of action.

Yet the bible actually addresses this; saying that "man is in bondage to sin" and now are born into sin (due to Adam's original sin). Some would argue "Well that's asinine that GOD would consider such a thing "sinful" because he made me like this anyway - isn't it diabolical how GOD would make me naturally want to do something; only to tell me that I can't?

This was a question I pondered for quite some time. I later found in the bible, however, that this was not his original plan. GOD's original plan was in the Garden of Eden, essentially for human beings to live in paradise and glorify GOD. At this time, there was no "sin."

WTF is sin?

Sin simply means that you're contradicting the will of GOD which, before Adam, had never been done by a human being on earth - therefore introducing it (this is why we need Jesus).

So to retort your first platform opposition, I would say the bible addresses that issue rather clearly and, left to our own devices (AKA our own most loving emotions and natural urgest), we are doomed ("The wages of sin are death").

I would also like to mention that "The heart is deceitful above all things."

quote:- How could Muslims, a people of great religion, all rooting from the same "God", be going to hell, according to the Christian Bible?

This ties in with several doctrinal discrepancies in each of the previously mentioned religions; but generally amounts to the most important doctrine of any christian church: The only right human beings have is the right to go to hell, and therefore need Jesus.

If you follow what I'm saying, I think you'll see that it follows the logic of such a mindset; essentially saying that if human beings need Jesus to get saved, and a certain religion doesn't incorperate the belief in Jesus Christ as a savior, then they aren't saved.

Notwithstanding some of the methods other religions use to "root for" GOD are sometimes downright ludicrous.

quote:- The prevailing characteristic of narrow-mindedness which I encounter ever so frequently in the Christian Churches I sometimes visit, and with the Christians I talk to.

Never has a more prevailent or more true statement been made.

Jesus - protect me from your followers!

However, I'll have you know that Jesus Christ himself wouldn't be excepted at alot of the "Christian" churches today.

Yes, there is a great deal of narrow mindedness - but, to answer your question, just know you'll find that on either side. Quite often I've spoken with atheistic people who are, in essense, making their ego god - persons so in love with their own intelligence that they cannot be wrong.

Human beings are human beings, and you'll find intolerance everywhere. Just know that you probably shouldn't use the bad actions of some people to judge the whole church (unless their bad actions are doctrinal).

quote:- The Christian Church's list of 'taboo' subjects.

I am not 100% sure as to what you're saying, but I know at my church no subject is taboo (sex, drugs, rock and roll, child molestation on behalf of catholic preists - etc.)

quote:- The general Right-Wing Christian view on modern issues in society and how they're wasting time, energy, and money in our country, and world for that matter.

The more I read of this post, the more I'm beginning to wonder if you've actually been in a church of genuine christians, or pompus frauds who call themselves christians (the bible talks about that, too).

Yes, you will find that most christians have right-winged views. But know that I know many who do not - actually, the Evangelical Lutheran church is very well known for its liberalism!

My pastor and I have agreed - and we personally feel that GOD is neither a republican nor democrat. It just seems that the Right wing marketed to the religious heart of America more effectively than the left.

quote:The Catholic Church, and in particular, closed minded Catholics.

You and I both brother.

I want to address you personally for a moment. It appears that you have had some pretty bad experiences with christianity and christian church - but very truly I tell you, many people have a great relationship with "church" and "religion" and "tradition," but do not have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. This relationship is what the bible says saves us; not going to church on Sundays and doing good deeds.

I thank you for your time.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

To me that's like you're saying You don't exist, I don't exist, the computer screen doesn't exist, nor does anything. That is because I don't believe in a God that is some being floating in the sky but that it is what sustains our existance and everything within it.

That's because you're an idiot. I'm sorry, but I have asked you many times to defend those rather irritating claims you keep making but you won't.

Beholder:

I'd just like to thank you in taking your time to intelligently answer some of my questions or concerns.

One of the prevailing points you seemed concerned about in your reply was the question of whether I had been around genuine Christians, and the answer is yes.

However, and it may just be due to my current adolescent status (even though I come in contact with a lot of adults who maintain the characteristic of being, what I commonly ignorantly brush off as, 'ignorant'), it just seems that on any given day, if I'll meet someone new, or start talking to an aquaintance, they'll just seem so...I don't know. Ignorant is the only word I can describe it as.

I have a lot of trouble bringing myself to believe the Christian faith...I understand the logic and the almost mathematical foundations of it, in that, when man first sinned, the race of man turned into an inevitable sinning entity in which we are eternally bound to, but I don't know if that's true.

This inability to identify with the Christian results namely from my thoughts on things such as reincarnation, different planes of existance, and so forth...And I understand that a lot of the 'new age' teachings are brushed off and looked down upon by the Christian Church, simply viewed as ploys of the devil to further people away from the true word of GOD. I could go back and fourth in my head forever if I wanted to...

To anyone else who had questions or wanted to discuss things, my email address is mitizaa@gmail.com and my AIM is mitizaa.

Thanks again.

quote:Originally posted by IanBoyd3:

That's because you're an idiot. I'm sorry, but I have asked you many times to defend those rather irritating claims you keep making but you won't.

I think you've not understood the play on words to this day, someone seems to have really hammered in some concept of God in your head that just isn't getting out, even though you don't believe it.

Back up my claims, DO I NEED TO? I'm saying that God is not some being in some other dimension, that God is what we exist within and everything is made of, what do we exist within, the universe right? What does the universe exist within, what has the ability to hold it, Reality right? Thats in my definition a word for what is able to hold the matter of the universe, the system that the universe is governed by, light dark, etc etc etc, it cant exist in nothing, only nothing can exist in nothing, nor can anything manifest itself in nothing, because nothing will always be nothing and cant do or hold anything, the universe isnt within nothing, the universe is within Reality.

Reality, this Reality, there could be an infinite number of other realities, they exist within Ultimate Reality.

What the heck is Ultimate Reality? It is what everything can exist within and does exist within it and there is nothing but Ultimate Reality which everything is dependant on, including this reality and this universe within it, and us within this universe.

"Prove it" What are you asking, I'm not stating anything new, I'm stating something OBVIOUS, it should be clear.

Go to Hinduism and at the core they have the same understanding, so do many other religions, its not a new concept, and it is nothing that needs to be proven, it is obvious that we exist, that the universe exists within reality, that reality potentially exists within ultimate reality which potential other realities may also exist within (Can't prove that because I don't believe we can encounter other universes or realities) but in the end that Reality includes everything, and that you're dependant on it and utilize it constantly. From the possible thoughts you can think to the possible actions you can perform, if it was not an option for a thought you wouldnt be able to think it even, if you can think it then it is. Its stating the obvious.

Why do I call it God? Because like you, I don't believe in any man in the sky or "being" which is within Reality and controls things, but that Reality is what is in control, and that it is the only God.

Then I go to explain how it can be interpreted and described as God with my long list of definitions, how it is animate and alive and existing.

These are all very simple concepts which don't need much deep thought, they are all surface level statements, there is nothing amazing about them, the amazing thing is that people let themselves worship things that not only dont exist but are far less than ultimate in nature.

Still don't get it?

AIM: Flatlandegg

Talk to me sometime, Mr.Tree, I enjoy intelligent company.