Abrahim has asked the following in the topic "get your torches ready--another Christian" and, in the interests of forum decorum http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif), I've transferred the discussion to a new thread.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

I do believe that I read the posts of my questioners and then I respond with writing long winded posts in response to various things they brought up then they tell me that I'm just copy pasting non sense and ask me to answer their questions when I feel I have!

You copy and pasting may make sense to you and some others, however lists of verses picked out of particular contexts and used to support a point of view will be very familiar with any person who has had contact with churchianity and as mentioned: once bitten twice shy! You cannot prove your point by appealing to the Koran as an authoratitive source unless you also provide proof for the authority of the Koran. That proof cannot come from within the Koran, it must come from independent sources.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

Why do you put "Namaste" at the end of your posts if you don't believe in what I believe in? Namaste is a reference to the same concept as the one I speak of, the one some call non sense!

Namaste means any of the following:

"In a religious context this word can be taken to mean any of these:

The Spirit in me meets the same Spirit in you.

I greet that place where you and I are one.

I salute the divine in you.

I salute the Light of God in you.

I bow to the divine in you.

I recognize that within each of us is a place where Divinity dwells, and when we are in that place, we are One.

In other words, it recognizes the equality of all, and pays honor to the sacredness and interconnection of all, as well as to the source of that interconnection. Namaskar is the term for such greetings, and is also used as a greeting itself."

Found in Hinduism which believes:

"brahma (nominative singular), brahman (stem) (neuter[1] gender) means the concept of the Supreme transcendent and immanent Reality or the One Godhead or Cosmic Spirit in Hinduism; this is discussed below. Also note that the word Brahman in this sense is exceptionally treated as masculine (see the Merrill-Webster Sanskrit Dictionary). It is called "the Brahman" in English."

also

"Ishvara, or the Supreme God (lit., Supreme Lord), which may be completely identified with the Supreme Truth Brahman, as by the Dvaita philosophy, or partially as a worldly manifestation of the Brahman having (positive) attributes."

Do you believe in any of the above? Why do you say Namaste, what do you mean by it?



"I greet that place where you and I are one."

We are all human, subject to suffering, desires, aversions, and ignorance. We all wish for an escape from suffering and to be happy.

"it recognizes the equality of all, and pays honor to the sacredness and interconnection of all, as well as to the source of that interconnection."

As I recognise the equal right of all to have their beliefs, and recognise that what is right for me is not necesarily right for others. We are all unique, individual, human beings, and as far as is known, humans are the highest form of sentient life. It is not my place to instruct others, for I have found that the highest levels of spirituality are to be found within oneself.

You on the other hand, appear to be full of evangelistic fervour and it is this along with your proselytizing that is the point of difference. I have read the Koran(and any other holy book I could) and have found it wanting. I believe everyone deserves to have the same level of proof as Thomas Paine pointed out iin "Age of Reason". That is if Thomas the disciple was not able to believe without physical proof, that right is mine and all others as well. Why should one believe in Allah and the Koran? where is the proof? What benefit would it be(aside from avoiding hell)? IMHO you would be better off dropping your appeal to the supernatural and working on a viable version of your 'ultimate reality' theory.

Namaste http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

When I state the science found in the Qur'an prior to the discovery of those things people say "vague" when I state that in all things there is proof people state "That is not proof" when I say that it is Logical to believe in my God because something can't come from nothing and nothing doesn't exist they say "Unreasonable"

What proof is it you want?

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

...

when I say that it is Logical to believe in my God because something can't come from nothing and nothing doesn't exist they say "Unreasonable"

What proof is it you want?

Asking what proof I want seems irrelevant when it is you who wishs to prove your position. Your behaviour reminds me of others I have known who have a flash of insight, decide that it's a divine revelation, then test their theory by seeing how many people they can convert. In fact it seems you are looking for proof yourself and, the number of converts is that proof.

It is unreasonable, to my mind at least, to draw the conclusions you have. How is it "Logical to believe in" your "God because something can't come from nothing and nothing doesn't exist" I agree something cannot come from nothing, and nothing, 'absolute nothing', cannot be said to exist, but how that equates to becoming logical to believe in your God or any other escapes me.

To my mind it removes the necessity for a God of the kind presented in the Koran, or the Bible, or the various other anthropomrphic representations/images. The cause of existence becomes clear as not actually a cause, but a reason. The universe logically exists not because Allah or God created it, but simply because it must, there is no alternative, there cannot be nothing, there must be something and there is!

In my experience it is an overwhelming trait(a mental blind spot?) of humans to look at life in terms of beginnings and endings, the universe/god/cosmos/existence has always been and must always be, for there can never be nothing, there cannot be an end nor a beginning to existence. However if one thinks in terms of Allah/God then, to fit into the theme of creator, one thinks of a creation, a beginning. What would happen if instead one started thinking in terms of the universe/existence as infinite/eternal and divinity being expressed through infinite and eternal creativity?

This is not to say the divine(or God in your terms) is absent from the universe, simply that human descriptions and definitions seem inadequate and tend to be misleading. How much misery and suffering must humanity endure at the hands of those who push ther image/concept of god on others? Is it not better to recognise that some things may remain mystery, beyond our present understanding, beyond logical/reasonable definition, and instead focus on the things we can know?

Namaste http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

I'd like to talk to you on MSN, AIM, or Yahoo Messenger.

quote:Originally posted by redzed:

Asking what proof I want seems irrelevant when it is you who wishs to prove your position. Your behaviour reminds me of others I have known who have a flash of insight, decide that it's a divine revelation, then test their theory by seeing how many people they can convert. In fact it seems you are looking for proof yourself and, the number of converts is that proof.

It is unreasonable, to my mind at least, to draw the conclusions you have. How is it "Logical to believe in" your "God because something can't come from nothing and nothing doesn't exist" I agree something cannot come from nothing, and nothing, 'absolute nothing', cannot be said to exist, but how that equates to becoming logical to believe in your God or any other escapes me.

To my mind it removes the necessity for a God of the kind presented in the Koran, or the Bible, or the various other anthropomrphic representations/images. The cause of existence becomes clear as not actually a cause, but a reason. The universe logically exists not because Allah or God created it, but simply because it must, there is no alternative, there cannot be nothing, there must be something and there is!

In my experience it is an overwhelming trait(a mental blind spot?) of humans to look at life in terms of beginnings and endings, the universe/god/cosmos/existence has always been and must always be, for there can never be nothing, there cannot be an end nor a beginning to existence. However if one thinks in terms of Allah/God then, to fit into the theme of creator, one thinks of a creation, a beginning. What would happen if instead one started thinking in terms of the universe/existence as infinite/eternal and divinity being expressed through infinite and eternal creativity?

This is not to say the divine(or God in your terms) is absent from the universe, simply that human descriptions and definitions seem inadequate and tend to be misleading. How much misery and suffering must humanity endure at the hands of those who push ther image/concept of god on others? Is it not better to recognise that some things may remain mystery, beyond our present understanding, beyond logical/reasonable definition, and instead focus on the things we can know?

Namaste http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

But I'm stating that as well, that God has always been and will always be, that all possibilities have always existed, that there is no beginning and there is no end there is only God the infinite creator of limitations, our concepts of Time for this Reality and Universe.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

But I'm stating that as well, that God has always been and will always be, that all possibilities have always existed, that there is no beginning and there is no end there is only God the infinite creator of limitations, our concepts of Time for this Reality and Universe.

I can see we share some views, however I hold them only as theory/wonder, you preach it as fact(and you add the supernatural, plus you aggressively challenge the views of others before getting to know them). The reality I live in is one where the only constant is change. Everything changes, nothing remains the same, including knowledge. Like you are now, I also acted in the past, only to discover life goes on. Eventually the realisation struck that religion or more correctly, metaphysics, has been used by vested interests as a means of control for millenia. Then came further realisation that much of what I believed to be true was because I had trusted a parent, and later other significant adults. Then came a period of intense disillusionment.

For some years I worked in an emergency service having to deal with some fairly intense situations, like suicide. It occurred to me how difficult it made the job when one did not know the religion of the grieving relatives. When I left that service I began a study of the world religions with the intent of turning it into a handbook useful for emergency service personnel. What I found changed my world forever, now I would prefer to keep an open mind rather than become fossilised in dogma.

Namaste http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by redzed:

I can see we share some views, however I hold them only as theory/wonder, you preach it as fact(and you add the supernatural, plus you aggressively challenge the views of others before getting to know them). The reality I live in is one where the only constant is change. Everything changes, nothing remains the same, including knowledge. Like you are now, I also acted in the past, only to discover life goes on. Eventually the realisation struck that religion or more correctly, metaphysics, has been used by vested interests as a means of control for millenia. Then came further realisation that much of what I believed to be true was because I had trusted a parent, and later other significant adults. Then came a period of intense disillusionment.

For some years I worked in an emergency service having to deal with some fairly intense situations, like suicide. It occurred to me how difficult it made the job when one did not know the religion of the grieving relatives. When I left that service I began a study of the world religions with the intent of turning it into a handbook useful for emergency service personnel. What I found changed my world forever, now I would prefer to keep an open mind rather than become fossilised in dogma.

Namaste http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Sounds excellent, will you make the book still?

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

Sounds excellent, will you make the book still?

It's a work in progress, research takes time and it's important to get it right. For example it's not possible to put all muslim beliefs under one heading seeing as there are so many schisms within that religion. Not that Islam is unique in that regard, Hindu beliefs are myriad, buddhists also have many differing beliefs, and xian differences are huge.

First, I need to comprehend what it is they believe, to do that it seems one has to get in the 'role', think, act like a true beleiver in xyz religion in order to truly understand how those people feel about life and death. That's difficult but this and other forums are helpful.

What do you think would be the critical information an emergency service officer(be it police, ambulance whatever) would need to respond to a sudden death of a muslim. What rules are there for handling of the dead body? What are muslim attitudes towards suicide? How does that differ between muslim sects?

Namaste http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)