They seem to go hand in hand, don't they. A perfect excuse to start a war. Let's not forget about Osama Bin Laden who started a so called "Jihad" (Holy war) against the west. Ofcourse this is just a cover up for something much larger then just his religion.

And lets not forget the ooh so holy President Bush Jr. who always says after his speaches, God bless us all or some crap like that. Making it appear that God condonnes(sp?) wars.

Religion has caused more pain and greef then anything else tru out history. It's just a cheap excuse to kill people.

And your point? I *personally* like having an easy excuse to put a bullet in somebody's head.

quote:Originally posted by prozak_jack:

I *personally* like having an easy excuse to put a bullet in somebody's head.

Point proven, like I said, a cheap excuse to kill people.

If you took religion away, people would make other cheap and easy excuses to put bullets in heads. I wouldn't blame religion, I'd blame people.

Also Jihad means "To Strive". It doesn't really mean Holy War: Performing Jihad = Being a Muslim and Following the Qur'an, which reccomends you strive in the way of right action, as an upright human being, giving charity and saying your prayers.

[This message has been edited by Abrahim (edited 07-07-2006).]

Yes, but if you took religion away, insane people who murder or incite murder wouldn’t be able to hide behind this barricade protected by the government due to political correctness, and the insane people - note: I am not saying all religious people, just the violent ones - would more easily be put to a stop.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

If you took religion away, people would make other cheap and easy excuses to put bullets in heads. I wouldn't blame religion, I'd blame people.



If you took religion away, there'd be another excuse indeed, but it's here to stay...

The fact of the matter is, it's helping nobody. Lot's of people living in an illusion because they need something to hold on to. Other people, who absolutly do not believe, tell these extreem believers, you go blow yourself up somewhere and you'll go to heaven, while it's about money and power. Religion is alot like money, it gives power to certaint people, even the power to start a war, using the believers as puppets.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

If you took religion away, people would make other cheap and easy excuses to put bullets in heads. I wouldn't blame religion, I'd blame people.

If I convinced a child to murder someone, and that child actually followed through with the murder, would my hands be clean? No, of course not. Whether you want to believe it or not, the Christian God tries to convince his children to slay one another. Here is an example of such a verse:

[Leviticus 20:9] "For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him."

Furthermore, the Bible is full of tales of God telling his chosen people to slaughter others. Take Numbers 31, for example, in which God orders the genocide of the Midianites, or Genesis 19, in which God personally destroys Sodom and Gomorrah for their sin. Such genocide was the inspiration for atrocities such as the Inquisition.

Another way in which religion differs from other causes of war is in the way in which it trivializes death. Thanks to religion, we no longer have to worry about death. When we die, we go to a place far better than this one and God rewards us for our atrocities! If people believed that they had only one life to live, and that it was up to them to live it to the fullest, surely no one would be stupid enough to squander it dying for a trivial cause (ie: oil).

If religion didn't exist, perhaps we would find other causes to fight for, but we certainly wouldn't find people stupid enough to put their lives on the line for such silly causes. It is ridiculous to claim that religion isn't the primary cause of war.

[This message has been edited by jsaxton14 (edited 07-07-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by jsaxton14:

If I convinced a child to murder someone, and that child actually followed through with the murder, would my hands be clean? No, of course not. Whether you want to believe it or not, the Christian God tries to convince his children to slay one another. Here is an example of such a verse:

[Leviticus 20:9] "For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him."

Furthermore, the Bible is full of tales of God telling his chosen people to slaughter others. Take Numbers 31, for example, in which God orders the genocide of the Midianites, or Genesis 19, in which God personally destroys Sodom and Gomorrah for their sin. Such genocide was the inspiration for atrocities such as the Inquisition.

Another way in which religion differs from other causes of war is in the way in which it trivializes death. Thanks to religion, we no longer have to worry about death. When we die, we go to a place far better than this one and God rewards us for our atrocities! If people believed that they had only one life to live, and that it was up to them to live it to the fullest, surely no one would be stupid enough to squander it dying for a trivial cause (ie: oil).

If religion didn't exist, perhaps we would find other causes to fight for, but we certainly wouldn't find people stupid enough to put their lives on the line for such silly causes. It is ridiculous to claim that religion isn't the primary cause of war.



Tell me about the Vietnamese.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

Tell me about the Vietnamese.

All my Hmong/Vietnamese friends are religious. What point are you trying to make?

no war and no murder has been done in the name of buddha buddhists from different sects will practice together without a second thought the chan buddhists at the shaolin monastery had a cool excuse for beating people up first the person who was beat up has to attack first but their excuse was the person was offering a gift of pain and they refused it and gave it back prrof that if religion won't give a good excuse we will make one up

[This message has been edited by Graemy (edited 07-08-2006).]

Richard Dawkins made a documentary about religion, entitled The Root of All Evil. It's basically 90 minutes of Dawkins explaining his problems with religion. I agreed with about 85% of what he said, and I rarely agree with someone that much. I didn't want to create a new thread about it, as it would be moved to IFIOTW anyway. This is the most relevant thread to post about it in. Here are links:

http://tinyurl.com/lm8cq http://tinyurl.com/kkjvv

quote:Originally posted by sybil:

They seem to go hand in hand, don't they. A perfect excuse to start a war. Let's not forget about Osama Bin Laden who started a so called "Jihad" (Holy war) against the west. Ofcourse this is just a cover up for something much larger then just his religion.

And lets not forget the ooh so holy President Bush Jr. who always says after his speaches, God bless us all or some crap like that. Making it appear that God condonnes(sp?) wars.

Religion has caused more pain and greef then anything else tru out history. It's just a cheap excuse to kill people.



Osama attacked us because...

"The events that affected my soul in a direct way started in 1982 when America permitted the Israelis to invade Lebanon and the American Sixth Fleet helped them in that. This bombardment began and many were killed and injured and others were terrorised and displaced.

I couldn't forget those moving scenes, blood and severed limbs, women and children sprawled everywhere. Houses destroyed along with their occupants and high rises demolished over their residents, rockets raining down on our home without mercy.

The situation was like a crocodile meeting a helpless child, powerless except for his screams. Does the crocodile understand a conversation that doesn't include a weapon? And the whole world saw and heard but it didn't respond." -Osama Bin Laden

Does that have anything to do with religion? No.

quote:Originally posted by Iam:



Osama attacked us because...

"The events that affected my soul in a direct way started in 1982 when America permitted the Israelis to invade Lebanon and the American Sixth Fleet helped them in that. This bombardment began and many were killed and injured and others were terrorised and displaced.

I couldn't forget those moving scenes, blood and severed limbs, women and children sprawled everywhere. Houses destroyed along with their occupants and high rises demolished over their residents, rockets raining down on our home without mercy.

The situation was like a crocodile meeting a helpless child, powerless except for his screams. Does the crocodile understand a conversation that doesn't include a weapon? And the whole world saw and heard but it didn't respond." -Osama Bin Laden

Does that have anything to do with religion? No.

Other Osama quotes:

"I'm fighting so I can die a martyr and go to heaven to meet God. Our fight now is against the Americans."

""Hostility toward America is a religious duty, and we hope to be rewarded for it by God . . ."

"We should fully understand our religion. Fighting is a part of our religion and our Sharia [an Islamic legal code]. Those who love God and his Prophet and this religion cannot deny that. Whoever denies even a minor tenet of our religion commits the gravest sin in Islam."

"We--with God's help--call on every Muslim who believes in God and wishes to be rewarded to comply with God's order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it. We also call on Muslim ulema, leaders, youths, and soldiers to launch the raid on Satan's U.S. troops and the devil's supporters allying with them, and to displace those who are behind them so that they may learn a lesson."

``We are seeking to incite the (Islamic) nation to rise up to liberate its land and to (conduct) jihad (holy war) for the sake of God."

"I was never afraid of death ... As Muslims, we believe that when we die, we go to heaven. Before a battle, God sends us ... tranquility."

Well yes, his fight IS justified by their religion, as it is a struggle against oppressive forces... Which is what a Jihad is. Why would he not play on the card most likely to draw compatriots to his cause? If he is a mmuslim, would he war without it being acceptable within Islam? None of that has anything to do with motivation, or the cause of war. The cause is American Foreign Policy, not religion. Their religion merely deems what they're doing acceptable.

Edit- Read his Times interview where he warned us in 1996, or another warning in 1997 with Peter Arnett on CNN, or another with John Weiner in 1998. Maybe find his interview with Abdul Bari Atwan or Robert Frisk.

In every one of these interviews he warns that agressive foreign policy on the part of the US is causing a rise in hatred in the Middle East. In every single one of these warnings, our actions overseas is the culprit of motivation. Two large towers in Lebanon bombed, filled with women and children is his cited reasoning behind choosing to attack our twin towers.

There is absolutely no reason to believe that his motivation for attacking us is religion, while there is a vast amount of evidence pointing to our foreign policy. Turn off your fox news for a bit and actually do some research my friend.

[This message has been edited by Iam (edited 07-08-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Graemy:

no war and no murder has been done in the name of buddha buddhists from different sects will practice together without a second thought the chan buddhists at the shaolin monastery had a cool excuse for beating people up first the person who was beat up has to attack first but their excuse was the person was offering a gift of pain and they refused it and gave it back prrof that if religion won't give a good excuse we will make one up





You're right that no war or murder has been enacted by we Buddhists. However, the Shaolin monks' methods described above are in err. They were actually protecting the surrounding areas from bandits that had been plaguing the land for years.

yea but is an excuse to beat people up and they also participated in the boxer revolution too

quote:Originally posted by Graemy:

yea but is an excuse to beat people up and they also participated in the boxer revolution too

Definitely. I agree completely. Originally the Shaolin monks actually practices martial arts as a form of exercise to stay in shape, when the bandits had gotten bad, they decided why not put their skills to good use and help people?

We have never participated in a war or 'kill and convert' campaign, nor have we ever murdered anyone. Buddhism is a very peaceful path.

that is right the monks who did participate in the boxer revolution refused to kill but well lets say monks in general had a bad time against guns

quote:Originally posted by Iam:

Definitely. I agree completely. Originally the Shaolin monks actually practices martial arts as a form of exercise to stay in shape, when the bandits had gotten bad, they decided why not put their skills to good use and help people?

We have never participated in a war or 'kill and convert' campaign, nor have we ever murdered anyone. Buddhism is a very peaceful path.

Bhuddism is peaceful, I don't agree with taking the actions of individuals claiming to follow a religion the same as the religion itself, and so those Mori Monks in Japan were at war with the rest of Japan during that one periods of warring factions and clans.

OK, but still, if we look at Judaism and Christianity, they both have arbitrary, barbaric, sexist, homophobic, racist rules, and if we were all people of reason who saw faith as foolish, we could easily due away with these sickening “morals”, and original sin is a horrendous idea and the religions of both Judaism and Christianity have horrific Gods and morals.

quote:Originally posted by jsaxton14:

All my Hmong/Vietnamese friends are religious. What point are you trying to make?

I'm talking about North Vietnam during the war, they used to blow themselves up, they were non religious.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

Bhuddism is peaceful, I don't agree with taking the actions of individuals claiming to follow a religion the same as the religion itself, and so those Mori Monks in Japan were at war with the rest of Japan during that one periods of warring factions and clans.

yea but see buddhism is affected by culture before buddhism got there they had still been at war they were at the beginning of the warring states period and buddhism was affected by it

that was durring the waring states period this link might provide information http://www.geocities.com/azuchiwind/monks.htm

quote:Originally posted by Graemy:

yea but see buddhism is affected by culture before buddhism got there they had still been at war they were at the beginning of the warring states period and buddhism was affected by it

that was durring the waring states period this link might provide information http://ww w.geocitie s.com/azuc hiwind/monks.htm (http: //www.geoc ities.com/ azuchiwind /monks.htm )

That's right, I wouldn't blame religion for the actions of its followers in all cases as Christianity says turn the other cheek, Islam says to be peaceful but that you have the right to defend yourself but never to start a conflict, and Bhuddism is also peaceful: But human individuals tend to use Religion, Ideals, and more as means to make conflict.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

That's right, I wouldn't blame religion for the actions of its followers in all cases as Christianity says turn the other cheek, Islam says to be peaceful but that you have the right to defend yourself but never to start a conflict, and Bhuddism is also peaceful: But human individuals tend to use Religion, Ideals, and more as means to make conflict.

If you were to look at the religious teachings of Judaism, Christianity, or Islam, you would see that the texts do at some point or another condone violence. The Dhammapada at no point speaks positively of violence. A primary tenet of the path is one of selflessness. To act in violence as adherents of the Abrahamic faiths' adherents do is directly opposed to the concept of selflessness.

Buddhism in and of itself, speaking of 'holy' text, is FAR less violent than those of Abrahamic faiths. Its adherents have have by a giant margin been less violent.

You can completely be justified in blaming the religion.. Christians do not believe they need to act with selfless compassion and harmony to attain their ultimate goal, therefore, they don't feel as compelled to do so.

The Jews, while not very aggressive and violent in today's world, acted as savages in the past. Slaughtering people in the belief that God condoned it.

In Islam, it IS considered acceptable in some situations to act in violence for self-motivated reasons. While it is only acceptable under extreme circumstances, it is still at some point or another acceptable.

Now consider Buddhism. If there was to be considered a single tenet to follow to attain the ultimate goal of Buddhists, it would be selflessness. If you decide to become Buddhist, you HAVE TO acknowledge selflessness as being something to always aspire to. This is what makes Buddhism more peaceful than other religions, and for this single factor, its adherents tend to be far less violent and NEVER motivated by personal interest. Not in Japan, not the Shaolin monks. We have not once acted in violence for self interest.