i'm sure this has been done before but here we go anyways.

why was the god of the old testament vengeful, angry, jealous, and spiteful. he was not particularly fond of forgiveness either it appears. he even helps that one guy ( god i wish i could remember his name) commit genocide with a donkey's jawbone.

then we get to the new testament, and god is love. he will forgive at any time, even on your deathbed. he no longer smites you because you told a lie.

so my question is... if god is, and always has been, and there is no time for god... how can god change over time?

P.S. if it matters...i am struggling catholic.

quote:Originally posted by vehicular mansLAUGHTER:

i'm sure this has been done before but here we go anyways.

why was the god of the old testament vengeful, angry, jealous, and spiteful. he was not particularly fond of forgiveness either it appears. he even helps that one guy ( god i wish i could remember his name) commit genocide with a donkey's jawbone.

then we get to the new testament, and god is love. he will forgive at any time, even on your deathbed. he no longer smites you because you told a lie.

so my question is... if god is, and always has been, and there is no time for god... how can god change over time?

P.S. if it matters...i am struggling catholic.



Another question could be why would a perfect being ever change his mind? Or for that matter, why would a perfect being ever create something that does things he doesn't want them to do? Why would an omnipotent being ever feel the need to kill off most of the people he created because of what they were doing? If he hated that behavior so much and he is perfect and omnipotent, why would he create a being that does it?



The Christian God can't be logically justified. If you consider questioning, you will lose your faith. Just as Adam and Eve sought the fruit of knowledge in the garden. God punished them for wanting to know what the fuck was going on.

Quite simply, the Bible is dealing with two separate deities. Do some research as to the origins of Biblical mythology.

You need to read the essay proofs of god by Martin Gardner, it does a good job of dispelling any strange idea's organized religions has about god, and exploring the possibility of what god might be.

Find it.

quote:Originally posted by vehicular mansLAUGHTER:

P.S. if it matters...i am struggling catholic.

I'm a Catholic. To tell you the truth, it's the fallacy of the Holy Trinity. Based on one line within the Gospel of John, while every other line in the Bible (besides Paul's letters and Epistles) say otherwise.

First you must realize that Jesus and God are two different entities. Then you must realize that only John said they were one and the same, and that Paul bases his teachings on that alone. You must also realize that Paul was one of the Pharisees that condemned Jesus' followers to their deaths (when he was called Saul) and even wrote that he had non canonical views about Jesus having never actually existed as a physical being.

Once you get passed the Holy Trinity doctrine, you can see that the God of the Old Testament is called Yahweh. That God is non-existant in the New Testament. That God, historically, was in fact a Jewish God, but a tribal fertility God. I'm not claiming that I know that is the true God that Christians, Jews, and Muslims follow, but I do know that Yahweh is no Jesus.

I'd actually recommend that you read the Quran about what it says about Jesus and His followers. The Quran actually portrays Jesus and his followers more accurately to the accounts of Josephus, Philo, and Pliny than Paul (he who basically wrote modern day church doctrine). Mainly because Islam was created on the same land that Jesus walked and followed by the same people that are ancestors to those who lived among Jesus during Jesus' time and because Paul simply didn't know Jesus.

To create a whole religion out of the land in which its messiah was born and raised is absurd. To create this religion on the teachings of one man who convicted the messiah's followers is even worse. I say read the Bible, and don't let others tell you what you are reading, but tell yourself what you are reading.

I'm still a Catholic because Catholics actually do accept that there are inconsistencies with the religion itself. Ever since the last Pope embraced science and evidence did the actual religion itself start to accept its inconsistencies. Its just that local catholic churches won't tell you that. For what reason, I have no idea.

[This message has been edited by postdiluvium (edited 07-10-2006).]

Old God was the real god, but because he was mean(really just cranky) a lot more people started going to Hell. Because of this, he had to fight in the war himself, appointing a pussy spokesman(aka Jesus) to speak for him. This also explains why Jesus died, but was then revived(God was too busy to keep him alive, then came 3 days 2 late and brought him back to life). Ever since then, Hell has been slowly closing in on Heaven's numbers. Just a few months ago, Hell finally overran Heaven, and God ran. Where, you ask? Into me, the Prophet Sam. How else would I know all of this?

postdiluviDo you have Msn?

I am hoping it would be possible to speak with you outside of totse about chatholicism.

Hello dear friends,

First of all, God did not change. He was forgiving then as he is forgiving now. Yet back then He knew that people would not change and he knew that they would change his people as well. Since he knew the hardness of their hearts would not be broken, by their own choice, then he would have them die rather then them taint his own people. Grace is shown just as much in the Old testament as it is in the new. IT was all a foreshadow of Christs coming. The Judges, Leviticus and the priesthood, the set up of the temple, the temple rules, the tearing down and rebuilding of isreal, all things point to Christ.

postdiluvium,

You can not really claim to be catholic since your views are not catholic. The trinity is spoken of many times in the old testament, specifically in genesis and psalms, Genesis 1:26,"And let US make man in OUR image." Psalms when david says, the Lord said to my Lord, in the context of the root of Jesse, meaning Christ. There aer others that i wish i could tell you off the top of my head. God can not be inconsistent, if he was .... then how could he be God? O and God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are mentioned several times in the New testament, giving tribute to the trinity. As well as at Jesus baptism, when the hand of the father and the dove came down, again indicating the trinity. For there is only one God above all things. I also do not understand your pointing to the Koran? IT claims Christ as being a prophet, but not even dieing for our sins? If you believe that, you are not even a Christian, for Christians Christ is the messiah and savior of the world from sin, both true God and true man. Once you deny this, your claim to Christianity is lost as well.

quote:Originally posted by postdiluvium:

I'm a Catholic. To tell you the truth, it's the fallacy of the Holy Trinity. Based on one line within the Gospel of John, while every other line in the Bible (besides Paul's letters and Epistles) say otherwise.

First you must realize that Jesus and God are two different entities. Then you must realize that only John said they were one and the same, and that Paul bases his teachings on that alone. You must also realize that Paul was one of the Pharisees that condemned Jesus' followers to their deaths (when he was called Saul) and even wrote that he had non canonical views about Jesus having never actually existed as a physical being.

Once you get passed the Holy Trinity doctrine, you can see that the God of the Old Testament is called Yahweh. That God is non-existant in the New Testament. That God, historically, was in fact a Jewish God, but a tribal fertility God. I'm not claiming that I know that is the true God that Christians, Jews, and Muslims follow, but I do know that Yahweh is no Jesus.

I'd actually recommend that you read the Quran about what it says about Jesus and His followers. The Quran actually portrays Jesus and his followers more accurately to the accounts of Josephus, Philo, and Pliny than Paul (he who basically wrote modern day church doctrine). Mainly because Islam was created on the same land that Jesus walked and followed by the same people that are ancestors to those who lived among Jesus during Jesus' time and because Paul simply didn't know Jesus.

To create a whole religion out of the land in which its messiah was born and raised is absurd. To create this religion on the teachings of one man who convicted the messiah's followers is even worse. I say read the Bible, and don't let others tell you what you are reading, but tell yourself what you are reading.

I'm still a Catholic because Catholics actually do accept that there are inconsistencies with the religion itself. Ever since the last Pope embraced science and evidence did the actual religion itself start to accept its inconsistencies. Its just that local catholic churches won't tell you that. For what reason, I have no idea.



Don't stop at reading the Qur'an about Jesus, but about God too, in fact, become a Muslim.

quote:Originally posted by VictimKing:

Old God was the real god, but because he was mean(really just cranky) a lot more people started going to Hell. Because of this, he had to fight in the war himself, appointing a pussy spokesman(aka Jesus) to speak for him. This also explains why Jesus died, but was then revived(God was too busy to keep him alive, then came 3 days 2 late and brought him back to life). Ever since then, Hell has been slowly closing in on Heaven's numbers. Just a few months ago, Hell finally overran Heaven, and God ran. Where, you ask? Into me, the Prophet Sam. How else would I know all of this?

Hell was never mentioned until the Gospels. During the OT there was no such thing as hell! There was only the Jewish Sheol which just meant grave. There was Gehanna outside of the gates of Jerusalem. It was a huge fiery pit for garbage. Old kings used to sacrafice their children there to their Gods. Hell didn't appear until the Jewish tribes came in contact with Greek Mythology. Probably during Babylonian captivity, is what I'm guessing. Even in the New Testament, the Saducees are the Jewish Sect that control the Temple and they believed in neither Heaven nor Hell nor angels. But the Pharisees, the newer Jewish sect who were strict on probably everything (But not isolationist like the Esenees) did believe in Hell.

quote:Originally posted by AerosmithRocks:

postdiluviDo you have Msn?

I am hoping it would be possible to speak with you outside of totse about chatholicism.

sorry d00d, but I am thinking about setting up an AIM if I can find an older version of it. these newer applications these days have too much going on on their interfaces.

quote:Originally posted by Truth is all:

postdiluvium,

You can not really claim to be catholic since your views are not catholic. The trinity is spoken of many times in the old testament, specifically in genesis and psalms, Genesis 1:26,"And let US make man in OUR image." Psalms when david says, the Lord said to my Lord, in the context of the root of Jesse, meaning Christ. There aer others that i wish i could tell you off the top of my head. God can not be inconsistent, if he was .... then how could he be God? O and God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are mentioned several times in the New testament, giving tribute to the trinity. As well as at Jesus baptism, when the hand of the father and the dove came down, again indicating the trinity. For there is only one God above all things. I also do not understand your pointing to the Koran? IT claims Christ as being a prophet, but not even dieing for our sins? If you believe that, you are not even a Christian, for Christians Christ is the messiah and savior of the world from sin, both true God and true man. Once you deny this, your claim to Christianity is lost as well.

Does it not say in the Bible that you should neither add nor take away from what it says in the Bible? By that account what you are doing is Blasphemy. For instance, Genesis 1:26,"And let US make man in OUR image." only says that and to imply otherwise by adding your own interperetation is blasphemous to the Word.

There you go again with Psalms when david says, the Lord said to my Lord, in the context of the root of Jesse, meaning Christ adding your own words you blasphemous heathen. http://www.totse.com/bbs/mad.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/mad.gif) I believe I have taken Jesus' Word better than you. You who take Paul's teachings over Jesus. If you want to be a Christian follow Christ and his teachings. Don't follow what others say about Christ. Especially a Pharisee like Paul who condemned Christ's followers to their death.

For anyone that really wants to learn the religion at the scholarly level you could start at the New Advent (http://www.newadvent.org) which is the most up to date database of the Catholic Encyclopedia. Even here they not only take God as Yahweh but also as Elohim because they realize that the Holy Trinity of Elohim has fallacy. So they always give a parallel of the perspective of if God truly is Yahweh.

postdiluvium,

I add nothing. God speaks in the plural form when talking of himself. Or else he would have said, let me make man in my own image. Again I add nothing. Scripture interprets scripture dear friend, therefore since the root of jesse does stand for Christ, and since David does address this as his Lord, then He addresses Christ as his Lord. Paul was a great teacher and contributed much to Christianity so do not defame his name, he was a true christian in every since of the word and i believe his understanding of Christ surpassed both yours and mine. As for Christ's teachings? Let us look at those then shall we? "Before moses was, I am." Now that is strange for him to say that is it not? Thomas exclaimed, "My lord and my God" directly to Christ and he did not rebuke him like he did peter. Therefore he accepted the address of God. I have many more, if you want them i am more then willing. Jesus is both true God with the father and Holy Spirit and true man

quote:Originally posted by Truth is all:

postdiluvium,

I add nothing. God speaks in the plural form when talking of himself.

I met a guy like that once, he came over and was like "We've been watching you. We know what you're doing and we want it to stop, understand?"

Freaked me the hell out.

quote:Originally posted by Truth is all:

postdiluvium,

I add nothing. God speaks in the plural form when talking of himself. Or else he would have said, let me make man in my own image.



as i recall it was God made man in His own image.

quote:Originally posted by Truth is all:

Again I add nothing. Scripture interprets scripture dear friend, therefore since the root of jesse does stand for Christ, and since David does address this as his Lord, then He addresses Christ as his Lord.

There you go interpereting the text for yourself again. Blasphemy.

quote:Originally posted by Truth is all:

Paul was a great teacher and contributed much to Christianity so do not defame his name, he was a true christian in every since of the word and i believe his understanding of Christ surpassed both yours and mine. As for Christ's teachings?

You are just ignoring the facts. Paul = Pharisee, condemner of the followers of Jesus, did not know Jesus, didn't even think Jesus existed on a physical plane. Do you like ignoring what the Bible says?

quote:Originally posted by Truth is all:

Let us look at those then shall we? "Before moses was, I am." Now that is strange for him to say that is it not? Thomas exclaimed, "My lord and my God" directly to Christ and he did not rebuke him like he did peter.

actually it is I AM not "I am." i guess you totally forgot that is how God adresses Himself to Moses. lets suppose God addresses Himself as Bill. wouldn't it be logical that he would have said "Before Moses was, Bill"? Why would he rebuke Peter? Because he wanted to make sure Peter would get it right. After all he did want Peter to be the pillar of his religion. But that niether her nor there since Paul made that claim.

quote:Originally posted by Truth is all:

Therefore he accepted the address of God. I have many more, if you want them i am more then willing. Jesus is both true God with the father and Holy Spirit and true man

Yeah and thats why Jesus asked God why God was forsaking him, leaving him to die on the Cross, right? Jesus was talking to himself, right? If you really believe Jesus was a true man, then you agree with me that Paul had it wrong because Paul believed that Jesus was neither man nor physical object.

as i recall it was God made man in His own image

A: You are right, he truly did create man in his own image. Yet that does not delete the passage in Genesis 1:26,"Then God said, 'Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.'" That is a direct quote, God refers to himself pluraly, recognizing more then one personhood in his nature.

There you go interpereting the text for yourself again. Blasphemy.

A: As I have stated before, only scripture interprets scritpture.

Isaiah 11:1-2, "There shall come forth a shoot from the stump of Jesse, and a branch from his roots shall bear fruit. And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and the fear of the LORD.

Mathew 4:16, "As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, adn he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him." This is a fulfillment of prophecy, and since Jesus was the fulfillment of old testament prophecy then He indeed was the root of Jesse.

You are just ignoring the facts. Paul = Pharisee, condemner of the followers of Jesus, did not know Jesus, didn't even think Jesus existed on a physical plane. Do you like ignoring what the Bible says?

A: I find that somewhat humorous seeing as how Paul wrote 13 letters, meaning 13 new testament books. That is almost half of the 27 books in the new testament. Paul refutes the gnostics, whose belief is that Jesus had no physical form. This is in direct disagreement of what you have said. Paul WAS a pharisee that converted to being a Christian. Maybe you should look a little more closely at what the Bible really says.

actually it is I AM not "I am." i guess you totally forgot that is how God adresses Himself to Moses. lets suppose God addresses Himself as Bill. wouldn't it be logical that he would have said "Before Moses was, Bill"? Why would he rebuke Peter? Because he wanted to make sure Peter would get it right. After all he did want Peter to be the pillar of his religion. But that niether her nor there since Paul made that claim.

A: No, I was hoping that you would indeed acknowledge that I Am is one of the names for God. The Bill statement fails to hold logic to me. When Jesus said this the Pharisees were ready to kill him for blasphemy. They would not want to do this if he simply stated the name of God, which they knew well. Of course that is why He would rebuke Peter, in order that he might stay on the right path. If Thomas called Jesus God and Jesus did not refute him, this means that Jesus accepts the name God and therefore is God.

Yeah and thats why Jesus asked God why God was forsaking him, leaving him to die on the Cross, right? Jesus was talking to himself, right? If you really believe Jesus was a true man, then you agree with me that Paul had it wrong because Paul believed that Jesus was neither man nor physical object.

A: As God addressed the rest of the personhood when He was making man, So Jesus addressed the rest of the personhood. He acknowledged them as God of course because that is who they are and of course he himself is. It is the trinity. As I have said above, there are no such claims that Paul believed Jesus was not physical or man. Here is a simple verse from his epistle. Colossians 1:22, "But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight and without blemish." Please, do not present things that are not backed by scripture if you are stating a conflicting belief that you say is in the Bible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God This is good! It says alot of the stuff I say!

God is One, Singular. God is not 3 or 6 or 9 God's numbers never end, you will find that there is no limit, there is only one infinite ultimate reality in which all is encompassed and that is God.

It can be refered to as it, and is often refered to as He. It is not a man or a woman, male or female.

It refers to itself in most scriptures as I or We.

quote:Originally posted by vehicular mansLAUGHTER:

he even helps that one guy ( god i wish i could remember his name) commit genocide with a donkey's jawbone.

That was Samson. Judges 15:16, and basically that entire chapter.

The answer to your question is simple: God 'changed' because the social and political climate in the region changed over hundreds and thousands of years. The bible is an output of the religious/political struggle in the region over an incredible period of time. Really, a better question would be why did they leave it all in there after various groups took such great pains to write, rewrite, reinterpret, finagle, and reinvent their god?

The bible as we know it today was written by many, many different hands often writing down stories that had been handed down orally for ages prior. Later, these written accounts were edited, santized, or modified to fit into the current political/religious climate, sometimes more than once. As man's religion evolved god evolved along with it.

Always keep in mind that man created god, not the other way around. Therefore, the account of god by man is as fickle and transient as man himself.

"Although there are occasional references in the disputed group of Pauline Epistles to a flesh-and-blood Jesus, the undisputed epistles contain only limited mention of Jesus as a historic figure. Even though Paul's letters are widely regarded as the earliest Christian documents, they contain very few references to Jesus' actual life and ministry, which only appear in detail in the later Gospels." According to Raymond Brown (An Introduction to the New Testament [New York: Doubleday, 1997], p. 610), "At the present moment about 60 percent of critical scholarship holds that Paul did not write the letter (Colossians).

There are theories according to which Paul was a Gnostic and his letters include Gnostic themes. He does write at one point of having known someone taken up into the "Third Heaven" (2 Cor 12:2). In this state he wrote he was not even sure whether he was in his body or not. Gnostics are usually Docetic (Jesus was incorporeal). So there is a possibility that Paul was probably believed that Jesus was a pure spirit.

quote:Originally posted by Truth is all:

as i recall it was God made man in His own image

A: You are right, he truly did create man in his own image. Yet that does not delete the passage in Genesis 1:26,"Then God said, 'Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.'" That is a direct quote, God refers to himself pluraly, recognizing more then one personhood in his nature.

There you go interpereting the text for yourself again. Blasphemy.

A: As I have stated before, only scripture interprets scritpture.

Isaiah 11:1-2, "There shall come forth a shoot from the stump of Jesse, and a branch from his roots shall bear fruit. And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and the fear of the LORD.

Mathew 4:16, "As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, adn he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him." This is a fulfillment of prophecy, and since Jesus was the fulfillment of old testament prophecy then He indeed was the root of Jesse.

You are just ignoring the facts. Paul = Pharisee, condemner of the followers of Jesus, did not know Jesus, didn't even think Jesus existed on a physical plane. Do you like ignoring what the Bible says?

A: I find that somewhat humorous seeing as how Paul wrote 13 letters, meaning 13 new testament books. That is almost half of the 27 books in the new testament. Paul refutes the gnostics, whose belief is that Jesus had no physical form. This is in direct disagreement of what you have said. Paul WAS a pharisee that converted to being a Christian. Maybe you should look a little more closely at what the Bible really says.

actually it is I AM not "I am." i guess you totally forgot that is how God adresses Himself to Moses. lets suppose God addresses Himself as Bill. wouldn't it be logical that he would have said "Before Moses was, Bill"? Why would he rebuke Peter? Because he wanted to make sure Peter would get it right. After all he did want Peter to be the pillar of his religion. But that niether her nor there since Paul made that claim.

A: No, I was hoping that you would indeed acknowledge that I Am is one of the names for God. The Bill statement fails to hold logic to me. When Jesus said this the Pharisees were ready to kill him for blasphemy. They would not want to do this if he simply stated the name of God, which they knew well. Of course that is why He would rebuke Peter, in order that he might stay on the right path. If Thomas called Jesus God and Jesus did not refute him, this means that Jesus accepts the name God and therefore is God.

Yeah and thats why Jesus asked God why God was forsaking him, leaving him to die on the Cross, right? Jesus was talking to himself, right? If you really believe Jesus was a true man, then you agree with me that Paul had it wrong because Paul believed that Jesus was neither man nor physical object.

A: As God addressed the rest of the personhood when He was making man, So Jesus addressed the rest of the personhood. He acknowledged them as God of course because that is who they are and of course he himself is. It is the trinity. As I have said above, there are no such claims that Paul believed Jesus was not physical or man. Here is a simple verse from his epistle. Colossians 1:22, "But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight and without blemish." Please, do not present things that are not backed by scripture if you are stating a conflicting belief that you say is in the Bible.

Just posting to let you know I haven't left you hanging. Ummm... this is a bit long. So I'm going to have to wait until I get home to reply. I'm getting the Bible out this time... OH NOEZ!

"Although there are occasional references in the disputed group of Pauline Epistles to a flesh-and-blood Jesus, the undisputed epistles contain only limited mention of Jesus as a historic figure. Even though Paul's letters are widely regarded as the earliest Christian documents, they contain very few references to Jesus' actual life and ministry, which only appear in detail in the later Gospels." According to Raymond Brown (An Introduction to the New Testament [New York: Doubleday, 1997], p. 610), "At the present moment about 60 percent of critical scholarship holds that Paul did not write the letter (Colossians).

There are theories according to which Paul was a Gnostic and his letters include Gnostic themes. He does write at one point of having known someone taken up into the "Third Heaven" (2 Cor 12:2). In this state he wrote he was not even sure whether he was in his body or not. Gnostics are usually Docetic (Jesus was incorporeal). So there is a possibility that Paul was probably believed that Jesus was a pure spirit.

A:Alright well i would like to know what critical scolarship is spoken of before i hold it to be true. Paul did not right about the History of Christ because he was not with him during that time. That is simple enough. As for a flesh and blood christ

Romans 3:25,"God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blodd." 1 Corinthians 10:16,"Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we gave thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread the we break a participation in the body of Christ."

1 Corinthians 15:21,"For since death came through a man, the ressurection of the dead comes also through a man."

Philippians 2:6,"Who being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

All of these point to Christ as a man of flesh and blood. And all of these are from different letters of Paul.

As for 2 Corinthians 12:2 being evidence of Pauls gnosticism? You should know better then to pick and choose without cross reference. When Paul speaks of the third heaven, he is talking about the heaven past the earth and space. Hebrews 4:14,"and now, having ascended higher then all the heavens." Ephesians 4:10,"to be exalted above the heavens." Hebrews 7:26b,"exalted above the heavens." You see heavens is always plural. The third heaven is simply showing what is meant by the plural form of heaven. As for being in or out of his body... enoch was caught up into heaven, elijah was taken into heaven as well, both of these were in body and not out of body. When we die, our soul is separated from the body, thus it is out of the body that we come to God, until that day of ressurection or the body. Therefore all these verses show how paul could not have been a gnostic and believed that he was a flesh and blood person.

quote:Originally posted by Truth is all:

"Although there are occasional references in the disputed group of Pauline Epistles to a flesh-and-blood Jesus, the undisputed epistles contain only limited mention of Jesus as a historic figure. Even though Paul's letters are widely regarded as the earliest Christian documents, they contain very few references to Jesus' actual life and ministry, which only appear in detail in the later Gospels." According to Raymond Brown (An Introduction to the New Testament [New York: Doubleday, 1997], p. 610), "At the present moment about 60 percent of critical scholarship holds that Paul did not write the letter (Colossians).

There are theories according to which Paul was a Gnostic and his letters include Gnostic themes. He does write at one point of having known someone taken up into the "Third Heaven" (2 Cor 12:2). In this state he wrote he was not even sure whether he was in his body or not. Gnostics are usually Docetic (Jesus was incorporeal). So there is a possibility that Paul was probably believed that Jesus was a pure spirit.

A:Alright well i would like to know what critical scolarship is spoken of before i hold it to be true. Paul did not right about the History of Christ because he was not with him during that time. That is simple enough. As for a flesh and blood christ

Romans 3:25,"God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blodd." 1 Corinthians 10:16,"Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we gave thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread the we break a participation in the body of Christ."

1 Corinthians 15:21,"For since death came through a man, the ressurection of the dead comes also through a man."

Philippians 2:6,"Who being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

All of these point to Christ as a man of flesh and blood. And all of these are from different letters of Paul.

As for 2 Corinthians 12:2 being evidence of Pauls gnosticism? You should know better then to pick and choose without cross reference. When Paul speaks of the third heaven, he is talking about the heaven past the earth and space. Hebrews 4:14,"and now, having ascended higher then all the heavens." Ephesians 4:10,"to be exalted above the heavens." Hebrews 7:26b,"exalted above the heavens." You see heavens is always plural. The third heaven is simply showing what is meant by the plural form of heaven. As for being in or out of his body... enoch was caught up into heaven, elijah was taken into heaven as well, both of these were in body and not out of body. When we die, our soul is separated from the body, thus it is out of the body that we come to God, until that day of ressurection or the body. Therefore all these verses show how paul could not have been a gnostic and believed that he was a flesh and blood person.



Case for Paul’s Gnosticism

Galatians 1:16 “to reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the Gentiles” denotes that he experienced Jesus didn’t as flesh and blood but “in me”. His Christ within was not the Corpus of Christian belief, but the Christ of the Gnosis.

You’re surmising that the reason the reason why Paul doesn’t mention the History of Christ because he was not with him is implausible. Luke wasn’t with “Jesus” however he was able to write a whole narrative about said Jesus. He could have heeded the “testimony” of his “disciples” whom he shunned (Galatians 1: 17) even though this is contradicted (1 Cor 15:3-9).

Jesus was “without father, without genealogy” (Heb 7:3) Paul said. Shun “foolish questionings and genealogies” (Titus 3:9). Jesus couldn’t be a flesh and blood if the aforementioned is true. Gnostics believed in divine descent, therefore Paul shunned the genealogies in order to abide to this belief.

One title of the Gnostic Christ is "All things." He is called Totum, or "All things." Nothing short of the Gnosis can tell us why. The Christian world is without the Gnosis, and therefore without the means of understanding Paul! Concerning the formation or creation of the Gnostic Christ in the character of "All things," or Totum, we are told that "The whole pleroma of the Æons, with one design and desire, brought together whatever each one had in himself of the greatest beauty and preciousness, and uniting all these contributions, so as to skilfully blend the whole, they produced a being of most perfect beauty, the very Saviour Christ." This "All things," who was the consummate flower of the fulness or pleroma of the previous seven powers, is the Christ of Paul, who, himself, is "All things," because in "him are all things," and in "all things" he has the pre-eminence. "All things are summed up in Christ" (Eph. i. 10). "Of him, through him, and unto him, are all things" (Rom. xi. 36). "In him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily" (Col. ii. 9). That is as the Gnostic Totum!--the All--The Christ--the eternal Soul or Spirit, in "whom all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge" are hidden!

Paul himself repudiated the traditional Christian dogma “wherefore let us cease to speak of the first principles of Christ, and press on unto perfection, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith towards God, of the teaching of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection from the dead, and of eternal judgment, and this will we do (Heb. 6: 1-3).

To emphasize the unreliability of the Pauline epistles: 1 Tim 6:13 show Jesus in flesh and blood however 6:16 contradicts it. 2 Cor 12:11 said that he was taught by man, however Gal 1 :12-13 said that he was taught solely by Christ.

Finally in criticism of 2 Cor 12:2- The Gnostic Christ was the Immortal Spirit in man, which first demonstrated its existence by means of abnormal or spiritualistic phenomena. It did not and could not depend on any single manifestation in one historic personality. And when Paul says, "I knew a man in Christ," we see that to be in Christ is to be in the condition of trance, in the spirit, as they phrased it, in the state that is common to what is now termed mediumship. Being in the trance condition, or in Christ, as he calls it, he was caught up to the third heaven, and could not determine whether he was in the body or out of the body. Here he identifies his Christ with a condition of being, and that condition with the abnormal phenomena known to some of us who have studied Modern Spiritualism. This is the Gnostic Christ, not the Christ of any special historic personality, who is supposed to have manifested only once upon a time, and once for all.

This Christ, personated by Paul as the revealer in trance, was of necessity the Gnostic Christ, the Spirit of God, as he often calls it, the Christ that spoke through him, founded on what is now termed spirit control, but not based on the spirit of any Jesus of Nazareth. His Christ is the spirit which revealed itself abnormally in, and through him, so that he "spoke the wisdom and the words which the spirit teacheth; he spoke mysteries in the spirit."

His Christ was the same spirit that "hath a diversity of workings" in various spirit manifestations. "To one it gives the word of wisdom; to another, the word of knowledge; to another, faith; to another, gifts of healing; to another, miraculous powers; to another, prophesy; to another, seeing of spirits; to another, the gift of tongues, and to another, their interpretation." And as this was the Christ, that always had been so manifested, nothing depended upon any historical character.

All that was real, that is, spiritual, would be the same afterwards as it had been before. Nothing did depend on it, and historical Christianity itself is but a vast interpolation.

N.B Your claim that mind is separated from body in death contradicted in Science.

Modern Science has deducted that the mind is a term of convenience for a variety of mental functions which have little in common except that humans are conscious of their existence. Functionalists tend to argue that the attributes which we collectively call the mind are closely related to the functions of the brain and can have no autonomous existence beyond the brain, nor can they survive its death. In this view mind is a subjective manifestation of consciousness: the human brain's ability to be aware of its own existence. The concept of the mind is therefore a means by which the conscious brain understands its own operations.

Besides there are no secular proof that these ressurections and ascensions ever took place, so its part of the myth.

Guys sorry it took so long but your claim truth is all is therefore refuted.





[This message has been edited by hespeaks (edited 07-16-2006).]

http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/jesusq.htm

I found this webpage which talks a little bit about the Qur'an's perspective on Jesus. Also if one of the following verses says "Gospel" its reffering to the "Injeel" which is according to the Qur'an the book which Jesus brought to the people after the Torah, not the New Testament.

Qur'an 3:45-51 Surah Ale-'Imran (The Family of 'Imran)

Behold! the angels said "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ (Maseeh) Jesus the son of Mary held in honor in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah.

"He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity and he shall be (of the company) of the righteous."

She said: "O my Lord! how shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: Allah createth what He willeth; when He hath decreed a plan He but saith to it 'Be' and it is!

"And Allah will teach him the Book and Wisdom the Law and the Gospel.

"And (appoint him) an Apostle to the Children of Israel (with this message): I have come to you with a sign from your Lord in that I make for you out of clay as it were the figure of a bird and breathe into it and it becomes a bird by Allah's leave; and I heal those born blind and the lepers and I quicken the dead by Allah's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe.

"(I have come to you) to attest the Law which was before me and to make lawful to you part of what was (before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah and obey me.

"It is Allah who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a way that is straight."

Qur'an 66:11-12 Surah At-Tahrim (Banning)

And Allah sets forth as an example to those who believe the wife of Pharaoh: Behold she said: "O my Lord! build for me in nearness to Thee a mansion in the Garden and save me from Pharaoh and his doings and save me from those that do wrong";

And Mary the daughter of 'Imran who guarded her chastity; and We breathed into her (body) of Our spirit; and she testified to the truth of the words of her Lord and of His Revelations and was one of the devout (Servants).



Qur'an 3:59-63 Surah Ale-'Imran (The Family of 'Imran)

This similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam: He created him from dust then said to him: "Be" and he was.

The truth (comes) from Allah alone; so be not of those who doubt.

If anyone disputes in this matter with thee now after (full) knowledge hath come to thee say: "Come! let us gather together our sons and your sons our women and your women ourselves and yourselves: then let us earnestly pray and invoke the curse of Allah on those who lie!"

This is the true account: there is no god except Allah; and Allah He is indeed the Exalted in Power the Wise.

But if they turn back Allah hath full knowledge of those who do mischief.

Qur'an 3:52-58 Surah Ale-'Imran (The Family of 'Imran)

When Jesus found unbelief on their part he said: "Who will be my helpers to (the work of) Allah?" Said the Disciples: "We are Allah's helpers we believe in Allah and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.

"Our Lord! we believe in what thou hast revealed and we follow the Apostle; then write us down among those who bear witness."

And (then unbelievers) plotted and planned and Allah too planned and the best of planners is Allah.

Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject Faith to the Day of Resurrection; then shall ye all return unto Me and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.

"As to those who reject faith I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter nor will they have anyone to help.

"As to those who believe and work righteousness Allah will pay them (in full) their reward; but Allah loveth not those who do wrong.

"This is what We rehearse unto thee of the Signs and the Message of Wisdom."

Qur'an 4:155-159 Surah An-Nisaa (The Women)

(They have incurred divine displeasure): in that they broke their Covenant: that they rejected the Signs of Allah; that they slew the Messengers in defiance of right; that they said "Our hearts are the wrappings (which preserve Allah's Word; we need no more)"; nay Allah hath set the seal on their hearts for their blasphemy and little is it they believe.

That they rejected faith: that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge.

That they said (in boast) "We killed Christ (Maseeh) Jesus the son of Mary the Apostle of Allah"; but they killed him not nor crucified him but so it was made to appear to them and those who differ therein are full of doubts with no (certain) knowledge but only conjecture to follow for of a surety they killed him not.

Nay Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power Wise.

And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment He will be a witness against them.

Qur'an 43:57-67 Surah Az-Zukhruf (Gold Adornments)

When (Jesus) the son of Mary is held up as an example behold thy people raise a clamor thereat (in ridicule)!

And they say " Are Our gods best or He?" This they set forth to thee only by way of disputation: yea they are a contentious people.

He was no more than a servant: We granted Our favor to him and We made him an example to the Children of Israel.

And if it were Our Will We could make angels from amongst you succeeding each other on the earth.

And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgment): therefore have no doubt about the (Hour) but follow ye Me: this is a Straight Way.

Let not the Evil One hinder you: for he is to you an enemy avowed.

When Jesus came with Clear Signs he said: "Now have I come to you with Wisdom and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which ye dispute: therefore fear Allah and obey me.

"For Allah; He is my Lord and your Lord: so worship ye Him: this is a Straight Way."

But sects from among themselves fell into disagreement: then woe to the wrongdoers from the Penalty of a Grievous Day!

Do they only wait for the Hour that it should come on them all of a sudden while they perceive not?

Friends on that Day will be foes one to another except the Righteous.

Qur'an 5:112-115 Surah Al-Ma'idah (The Table Spread)

Behold! the disciples said: "O Jesus the son of Mary! can thy Lord send down to us a table set (with viands) from heaven?" Said Jesus: "Fear Allah if ye have faith."

They said: "We only wish to eat thereof and satisfy our hearts and to know that thou hast indeed told us the truth; and that we ourselves may be witnesses to the miracle.

Said Jesus the son of Mary: "O Allah our Lord! send us from heaven a table set (with viands) that there may be for us for the first and the last of us a solemn festival and a sign from Thee; and provide for our sustenance for Thou art the best Sustainer (of our needs).

Allah said: "I will send it down unto you: but if any of you after that resisteth faith I will punish him with a penalty such as I have not inflicted on anyone among all the peoples.

Qur'an 61:14 Surah As-Saff (The Ranks)

O ye who believe! be ye helpers of Allah: as said Jesus the son of Mary to the Disciples "Who will be my helpers to (the work of) Allah?" Said the Disciples "We are Allah's helpers!" Then a portion of the Children of Israel believed and a portion disbelieved: but We gave power to those who believed against their enemies and they became the ones that prevailed.

Qur'an 4:163-170 Surah An-Nisaa (The Women)

We have sent thee (O Muhammad) inspiration as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him; We sent inspiration to Abraham Ismail Isaac Jacob and the Tribes to Jesus Job Jonah Aaron and Solomon and to David We gave the Psalms.

Of some Apostles We have already told thee the story; of others We have not; and to Moses Allah spoke direct.

Apostles who gave good news as well as warning that mankind after (the coming) of the Apostles should have no plea against Allah: for Allah is Exalted in Power Wise.

But Allah beareth witness that what He hath sent unto thee He hath sent from His (Own) Knowledge and the angels bear witness: but enough is Allah for a Witness.

Those who reject faith and keep off (men) from the way of Allah have verily strayed far far away from the path.

Those who reject faith and do wrong Allah will not forgive them nor guide them to any way.

Except the way of Hell to dwell therein for ever: and this to Allah is easy.

O mankind! the Apostle hath come to you in truth from Allah: believe in him: it is best for you. But if ye reject faith to Allah belong all things in the heavens and on earth: and Allah is All-Knowing All-Wise.

No Difference Between One and Another of the Prophets of Allah



Qur'an 2:135-141 Surah Al-Baqarah (The Heifer)

They say: "Become Jews or Christians if ye would be guided (to salvation)." Say thou: "Nay! (I would rather) the religion of Abraham the true and he joined not gods with Allah."

Say ye: "We believe in Allah and the revelation given to us and to Abraham Isma'il Isaac Jacob and the Tribes and that given to Moses and Jesus and that given to (all) Prophets from their Lord we make no difference between one and another of them and we bow to Allah (in Islam)."

So if they believe as ye believe they are indeed on the right path; but if they turn back it is they who are in schism; but Allah will suffice thee as against them and He is the All-Hearing the All-Knowing.

(Our religion is) the baptism of Allah; and who can baptize better than Allah? and it is He whom we worship.

Say: Will ye dispute with us about Allah seeing that He is our Lord and your Lord; that we are responsible for our doings and ye for yours; and that we are sincere (in our faith) in Him?

Or do ye say that Abraham Isma'il Isaac Jacob and the Tribes were Jews or Christians? Say: Do ye know better than Allah? Ah! who is more unjust than those who conceal the testimony they have from Allah? But Allah is not unmindful of what ye do!

That was a people that hath passed away. They shall reap the fruit of what they did and ye of what ye do! Of their merits there is no question in your case.

The Same Religion as That Enjoined on Noah



Qur'an 42:12-14 Surah As-Shuraa (The Consultation)

To Him belong the keys of the heavens and the earth: He enlarges and restricts the Sustenance to whom He will: for He knows full well all things.

The same religion has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah--the which We have sent by inspiration to thee--and that which We enjoined on Abraham Moses and Jesus: Namely that ye should remain steadfast in Religion and make no divisions therein: to those who worship other things than Allah hard is the (way) to which thou callest them. Allah chooses to Himself those whom He pleases and guides to Himself those who turn (to Him).

And they became divided only after knowledge reached them through selfish envy as between themselves. Had it not been for a Word that went forth before from thy Lord (tending) to a Term appointed the matter would have been settled between them: but truly those who have inherited the Book after them are in suspicious (disquieting) doubt concerning it.

Allah Sent down Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) Before the Qur'an



Qur'an 3:1-6 Surah Ale-'Imran (The Family of 'Imran)

A.L.M.

Allah! there is no god but He the Living the Self-Subsisting Eternal.

It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step) in truth the Book confirming what went before it; and He sent down Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this as a guide to mankind and He sent down the Criterion (of judgment between right and wrong).

Then those who reject Faith in the Signs of Allah will suffer the severest penalty and Allah is Exalted in Might Lord of Retribution.

From Allah verily nothing is hidden on earth or in the heavens.

He it is Who shapes you in the wombs as He pleases. There is no god but He the Exalted in Might the Wise.

Allah Sent Jesus the Son of Mary Confirming the Law, Sent Him the Gospel



Qur'an 5:45-47 Surah Al-Ma'idah (The Table Spread)

We ordained therein for them: "Life for life eye for eye nose for nose ear for ear tooth for tooth and wounds equal for equal." But if anyone remits the retaliation by way of charity it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed they are (no better than) wrong-doers.

And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary confirming the law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light and confirmation of the law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.

Let the people of the Gospel Judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed they are (no better than) those who rebel.

Qur'an 2:253 Surah Al-Baqarah (The Heifer)

Those apostles We endowed with gifts some above others: to one of them Allah spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honor); to Jesus the son of Mary We gave clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit. If Allah had so willed succeeding generations would not have fought among each other after clear (Signs) had come to them but they (chose) to wrangle some believing and others rejecting. If Allah had so willed they would not have fought each other; but Allah fulfilleth His plan.

Qur'an 61:6-9 Surah As-Saff (The Ranks)

And remember Jesus the son of Mary said: "O Children of Israel! I am the apostle of Allah (sent) to you confirming the Law (which came) before me and giving glad Tidings of an Apostle to come after me whose name shall be Ahmad." But when he came to them with Clear Signs they said "This is evident sorcery!"

Who doth greater wrong than one who invents falsehood against Allah even as he is being invited to Islam? And Allah guides not those who do wrong.

Their intention is to extinguish Allah's Light (by blowing) with their mouths: but Allah will complete (the revelation of) His Light even though the Unbelievers may detest (it).

It is He Who has sent His Apostle with Guidance and the Religion of Truth that he may proclaim it over all religion even though the Pagans may detest (it).

Qur'an 2:87-88 Surah Al-Baqarah (The Heifer)

We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of Apostles; We gave Jesus the son of Mary clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the holy spirit. Is it that whenever there comes to you an Apostle with what ye yourselves desire not ye are puffed up with pride? Some ye called impostors and others ye slay!

They say "Our hearts are the wrappings (which preserve Allah's word we need no more)." Nay Allah's curse is on them for their blasphemy; little is it they believe.

Qur'an 6:83-89 Surah An-An'am (The Cattle)

That was the reasoning about Us which We gave to Abraham (to use) against his people: We raise whom We will degree after degree: for thy Lord is full of wisdom and knowledge.

We gave him Isaac and Jacob: all (three) We guided: and before him We guided Noah and before him We guided Noah and among his progeny David Solomon Job Joseph Moses and Aaron: thus do We reward those who do good:

And Zakariya and John and Jesus and Elias: all in the ranks of the righteous:

And Ismail and Elisha and Jonas and Lot: and to all We gave favor above the nations:

(To them) and to their fathers and progeny and brethren: We chose them. And We guided them to a straight way.

This is the guidance of Allah: He giveth that guidance to whom He pleaseth of His worshippers. If they were to join other gods with Him all that they did would be vain for them.

These were the men to whom We gave the Book and authority and prophethood: if these (their descendants) reject them behold! We shall entrust their charge to a new People who reject them not.

Qur'an 5:116-120 Surah Al-Ma'idah (The Table Spread)

And behold! Allah will say "O Jesus the son of Mary! didst thou say unto men 'worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah"? He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing Thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart though I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.

"Never said I to them anything except what Thou didst command me to say to wit 'Worship Allah my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up thou wast the Watcher over them and Thou art a Witness to all things.

"If Thou dost punish them they are Thy servants: if Thou dost forgive them Thou art the Exalted the Wise.

Allah will say: "This is a day on which the truthful will profit from their truth: theirs are Gardens with rivers flowing beneath their eternal home: Allah well-pleased with them and they with Allah: that is the great Salvation (the fulfillment of all desires).

To Allah doth belong the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all that is therein and it is He who hath power over all things.

Qur'an 4:171-173 Surah An-Nisaa (The Women)

O people of the Book! commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but truth. Christ (Maseeh) Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an Apostle of Allah and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Apostles. Say not "Trinity": desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is One Allah: glory be to him: (for Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.

Christ (Maseeh) disdaineth not to serve and worship Allah nor do the angels those nearest (to Allah): those who disdain His worship and are arrogant He will gather them all together unto himself to (answer).

But to those who believe and do deeds of righteousness He will give their (due) rewards and more out of His bounty: but those who are disdainful and arrogant He will punish with a grievous penalty; nor will they find besides Allah any to protect or help them.

Qur'an 5:72-77 Surah Al-Ma'idah (The Table Spread)

They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ (Maseeh): "O children of Israel! worship Allah my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah Allah will forbid him the garden and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.

They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy) verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.

Why turn they not to Allah and seek His forgiveness? For Allah is Oft-forgiving Most Merciful.

Christ (Maseeh) the son of Mary was no more than an Apostle; many were the Apostles that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth makes His Signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!

Say: Will ye worship besides Allah something which hath no power either to harm or benefit you? But Allah He it is that heareth and knoweth all things."

Say: "O people of the Book! exceed not in your religion the bounds (of what is proper) trespassing beyond the truth nor follow the vain desires of people who went wrong in times gone by who misled many and strayed (themselves) from the even way.

Qur'an 9:30-35 Surah At-Tauba (Repentance)

The Jews call Uzair a son of Allah and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouths; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the truth!

They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; Yet they were commanded to worship but one Allah: there is no god but He. Praise and glory to him: (far is He) from having the parents they associate (with him).

Fain would they extinguish Allah's light with their mouths but Allah will not allow but that His light should be perfected even though the unbelievers may detest (it).

It is He who hath sent His apostle with guidance and religion of truth to proclaim it over all religions even though the pagans may detest (it).

O ye who believe! there are indeed many among the priests and anchorites who in falsehood devour the substance of men and hinder (them) from the way of Allah. And there are those who bury gold and silver and spend it not in the way of Allah: announce unto them a most grievous penalty.

On the day when heat will be produced out of that (wealth) in the fire of hell and with it will be branded their foreheads their flanks and their backs "this is the (treasure) which ye buried for yourselves: taste ye then the (treasures) ye buried!"

Qur'an 4:172-173 Surah An-Nisaa (The Women)

Christ (Maseeh) disdaineth not to serve and worship Allah nor do the angels those nearest (to Allah): those who disdain His worship and are arrogant He will gather them all together unto himself to (answer).

But those who believe and do deeds of righteousness He will give their (due) rewards and more out of His bounty: but those who are disdainful and arrogant He will punish with a grievous penalty; nor will they find besides Allah any to protect or help them.

Qur'an 3:83-86 Surah Ale-'Imran (The Family of 'Imran)

Do they seek for other than the Religion of Allah? While all creatures in the heavens and on earth have willing or unwilling bowed to His Will (accepted Islam) and to Him shall they all be brought back.

Say: "We believe in Allah and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham Isma'il Isaac Jacob and the Tribes and in (Books) given to Moses Jesus and the Prophets from their Lord; we make no distinction between one and another among them and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)."

If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah) never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good).

How shall Allah guide those who reject faith after they accepted it and bore witness that the Apostle was true and that clear signs had come unto them? But Allah guides not a people unjust.



[This message has been edited by Abrahim (edited 07-14-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by vehicular mansLAUGHTER:

i'm sure this has been done before but here we go anyways.

why was the god of the old testament vengeful, angry, jealous, and spiteful. he was not particularly fond of forgiveness either it appears. he even helps that one guy ( god i wish i could remember his name) commit genocide with a donkey's jawbone.

then we get to the new testament, and god is love. he will forgive at any time, even on your deathbed. he no longer smites you because you told a lie.

so my question is... if god is, and always has been, and there is no time for god... how can god change over time?

P.S. if it matters...i am struggling catholic.

How can you understand forgiveness, redemption, mercy, and grace if you have never witnessed the opposite ?

As with all things God created, there is a balance in this. God demanded perfection from the Jews to illustrate that they were incapable of achieving it. This paved the way for Jesus Christ, who would atone for our sins by his death, becoming the ultimate sacrifice.

God has never changed. He is the same now as He was when we were created. Everything He does is for OUR benefit, so we can better understand what He expects of us as believers. He interracted with us a certain way thousands of years ago to provide an example of balance for what was to come (post Christ).

If you would like to discuss this in greater depth, feel free to contact me:

AIM: desired hush

MSN: desired.hush@hotmail.com

IRC: Digital (on SlashNET)

quote:Originally posted by postdiluvium:



First you must realize that Jesus and God are two different entities. Then you must realize that only John said they were one and the same, and that Paul bases his teachings on that alone.

I think that is true, that the concept of the Holy Trinity is misconstrued. Also, I think that in saying that Jesus and God are one could be referring to being in 'perfect accord'. After all, Jesus was not born with the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit descended upon him.

But, what would the Holy Spirit be? A second being? I hardly think so, but it seems to me that the Holy Spirit would be more like a perfect union of intent?

Of course, I can't say that for certain but in the OT there are references to when the Holy Spirit would descend upon a prophet. In those stories the Holy Spirit would come down upon the prophet, and then leave the prophet once his purpose was accomplished.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

How can you understand forgiveness, redemption, mercy, and grace if you have never witnessed the opposite ?

As with all things God created, there is a balance in this. God demanded perfection from the Jews to illustrate that they were incapable of achieving it. This paved the way for Jesus Christ, who would atone for our sins by his death, becoming the ultimate sacrifice.

God has never changed. He is the same now as He was when we were created. Everything He does is for OUR benefit, so we can better understand what He expects of us as believers. He interracted with us a certain way thousands of years ago to provide an example of balance for what was to come (post Christ).

If you would like to discuss this in greater depth, feel free to contact me:

AIM: desired hush

MSN: desired.hush@hotmail.com

IRC: Digital (on SlashNET)

K, let us see how God had been "vengeful, spiteful, etc" He sanctioned human sacrifices (Lev. 27:28-29), slavery (Exodus 21 2-6) Death by stoning for unchastity at the time of marriage an penality imposed upon women (Deut 22:20-21). He killed 70,000 men because David took a census (2 Samuel 24)and had a bear tear apart 42 children for laughing at Elisha (2 Kings 2 23-24). How can you justify all of this by saying that he wanted to "provide a balance" to the New Testament. the New Testament complements the Old Testament's savagery by "Hell" which either you live a good life or not, if you question the doctrine (Romans 14:23) you will "suffer eternal destruction". If he's omnipotent he could've found a harmless way of accomplishing his plan but obviously "he" didn't. How is this supposed to work for our benefit?

Our idea of god evolves as our understanding does.

quote:Originally posted by ---Beany---:

Our idea of god evolves as our understanding does.

Understanding of what, the idea of God will forever be illogical as long as logic still exists.

quote:Originally posted by Flesh:

I think that is true, that the concept of the Holy Trinity is misconstrued. Also, I think that in saying that Jesus and God are one could be referring to being in 'perfect accord'. After all, Jesus was not born with the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit descended upon him.

But, what would the Holy Spirit be? A second being? I hardly think so, but it seems to me that the Holy Spirit would be more like a perfect union of intent?

Of course, I can't say that for certain but in the OT there are references to when the Holy Spirit would descend upon a prophet. In those stories the Holy Spirit would come down upon the prophet, and then leave the prophet once his purpose was accomplished.



The Holy Spirit could be what "posesses" a Prophet to recite the message of God.

Seriously, the bible is plaguerized, based off the Sumerian texts concerning creation and their "gods".

I can't believe you people argue about things of which you know nothing about.

Un-fucking-believeable.

quote:Originally posted by 4Sight:

Seriously, the bible is plaguerized, based off the Sumerian texts concerning creation and their "gods".

I can't believe you people argue about things of which you know nothing about.

Un-fucking-believeable.

Maybe the bible was inspired in concept (Hey! We should have a holy book with a creation story!) by Sumerian texts. Have you ever read any Sumerian mysticism? Those guys were seriously fucked up, and so were their gods. In terms of going around screwing each other, backstabbing each other, plotting, conniving, and the whole bit I think they were second only to the Greek gods.

[This message has been edited by Fate (edited 07-26-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Fate:

Maybe the bible was inspired in concept (Hey! We should have a holy book with a creation story!) by Sumerian texts. Have you ever read any Sumerian mysticism? Those guys were seriously fucked up, and so were their gods. In terms of going around screwing each other, backstabbing each other, plotting, conniving, and the whole bit I think they were second only to the Greek gods.



Erie likeness of story between Gilgamesh and Naoh. I actually think Gilgamesh from the Sumerian texts was Nimrod from the Torah who built the Tower of Babel. But thats just my theory.

Oh, and to the person I was having a debate about with Paul being the bastard that destroyed the very concept of Christ, I concede since I just dont have the time to reskim the Bible to cite the passages. I'm pretty sure there are websites out there that will agree with me. Especially Jewish ones.