Log in

View Full Version : The Faith of an Atheist


bonkers
2006-07-20, 16:23
The Faith of an Atheist

By William Stewart

Just this past week, I had the opportunity to talk with a self-proclaimed Atheist. I found it to be a rather interesting conversation.He discussed several things, which he found to be adequate evidence to discount the existence of God, none of which stood to any measure of inspection. Yet, he vehemently stood firm on the grounds of "scientific fact." He related to me that he found believing in God to be impossibility, due to a lack of evidence. I heard him out, and then decided to share with him some things important to his situation. I began with the statement, "It takes more faith to be an Atheist than it doesto be a Christian." If nothing else, this statement certainly perked his interest. He then declared to me that Atheism requires no faith, for it is based uponsolid scientific data. I went on to share the following number of points with him concerning the faith of an Atheist.

To Be An Atheist, One Must Believe... THAT GOD DOES NOT EXIST. As we look about us, we see that man is a religious creature by nature. Regardless of where you go, you will find people who have a need to worship some greater being than themselves. The Romans and Greeks had their mythological gods. Many submit themselves tothe worship of Buddha. Allah is considered by a great number of people to be worthy of worship and praise. But most of all, the God of heaven, tile one true God is the focus of many. If you were to stand on a street corner, asking whether people believe in God or not, I say with confidence that if each individual answered truthfully, you would be hard pressed to find any who will say no. This brings us to one of two conclusions:

1. It is practical andsensible to believe there has to be an eternal being superior to ourselves

2. The larger part ofsociety is completely irrational.

To Be An Atheist, One Must Believe... THAT MATTER IS EITHER ETERNAL OR IT CREATED ITSELF. To hold to the ideas of atheism, which is for themost part partial to the theory of evolution, one must believe that matter is either eternal or it created itself. Seeing that the Atheist has removed the possibility of a Creator, these are the only two options which remain. I asked the individual about the nature of the universe: ETERNAL or HAD A BEGINNING. A seemingly easy question, but over and over, he declined to give a straight answer. Yet, if we look at the evidence, we understand that the universe had a beginning. Scientists themselves attempt to assign an age to our planet, and the universe as a whole. Those things which are eternal have no age. The reason they attempt to assign an age to the world in which we live is because it bears the characteristics of age. Such things, whichare eternal, are not governed by time. We are told in Scripture that with the Lord a "...day is as a thousand years, a thousand years as a day." Yet, the universe is subject to time. The universe is running down. It is wearing out. Things on earth are corrupt, and worsening year after year. It is approaching an inevitable end. It cannot be eternal. The only other option for those who deny thepresence of a Supreme God is that the universe created itself. That is possibly the most absurd thing, which could ever be considered. Matter does not have the ability to create itself. A desk cannot bring itself into existence. What man has ever created him! If matter were able to create itself, consider the chaos which would occur! One would possibly be driving along a road, and a tree would appear from nowhere! Yet such things do not occur!

To Be An Atheist, One Must Believe... THAT LIFE IS SPONTANEOUSLY GENERATED. In denying the existence of God, the Atheist is forced to believe that life is able to spontaneously generate. In other words, life can come from that which has none. We understand God to be the Creator of all things, and that He is the source of life. Yet, if we remove God from the picture, we remove the breath of life which He gives. Thus, somewhere along the line, according to the Atheist's belief system, life spontaneously came into being. It never existed before. It has absolutely no source. It just started itself somehow at some time.

To Be An Atheist, One Must Believe... THAT ORDER AND DESIGN ARE RESULTS OF NON- INTELLIGENT ACCIDENTS. As we look about us at the wonders of creation, we can understand that God is the Master Designer. He purposefully created the world with order. Trees need carbon dioxide, mammals need oxygen. The two complement one another with the exchange of these gases. Our planet is exactly the correct distance from the sun. Any closer, we would burn up. Any further away, we would freeze. Approximately 2/3 of the earth is covered with water. This keeps the core temperature at an acceptable level. The gravitational forces on earth are such that we can walk freely about, without fear of being driven into the ground, nor lifted into space. The human body is a wondrous design. It is designed to repair itself in many instances. It has several functions, which automatically are cared for without the need for us even thinking about them. As was written, we are "...fearfully and wonderfully made."The Atheist though must affirm that all these wonders, and many, many more are merely theresult of an accidental happening. They, claim that no intelligence was involved in the forming of our world. It was simply the process of a "big bang." If such is possible, that something as wonderful as the universe can result from an unintelligent "bang,"' then something which is infinitely simpler should also be able to come together with a logical order and design without intelligence. For instance, what if we should disassemble a watch, place all the parts into a box, close the box, and begin shaking. How long before the watch will be fully assembled again? Shake as much and as hard as you can, you will never result in a watch. Though all the needed parts are present, a watchmaker is also needed. A source of intelligent construction. How much more does the universe need an intelligent Maker? ,

To Be An Atheist, On Must Believe... THAT NON-CONSCIENCENESS EVOLVES TO CONSCIENCENESS. The theory of evolution affirms that we are the descendants of a one-cell organism. This one- cell organism has no consciousness. It does not know that it exists. We, who are conscious of ourselves, and of the happenings surrounding us, according to the assertions of the atheist have evolved from this creature. How is it we became conscious beings? Can consciousness come from unconsciousness? If it can, does that mean that some day my desk will be aware of itself? I should hope not; it may decide then to walk away, since it would be its own being.

To Be An Atheist, One Must Believe... THAT NON-MORALITY EVOLVES TO MORALITY. Atheists have a hard time explaining morality. If we evolved from creatures that operate on instinct, not conscience, how is it that we have developed the ability to use conscience? Where did morality find its beginning? Did one ape finally decide that killing another ape was wrong? Did one decide that it was wrong to steal another ape's supper? No such things have occurred! Morality finds it origin in the existence of God. He has given a law, which therein establishes morality. However, the Atheist cannot explain where morality came from. Further, the Atheist can not give a reason for doing good. There is no reason, if we will not be judged. Why should we yield our own desires in order to serve others? The answer, we shall be judged!

Truly, Atheism is a faith. And without doubt, upon careful examination, it would seem that it takes more faith to be an Atheist than it does to be a Christian. Paul wrote, "...since the creation of the world His invisible attributes areclearly seen, being understood by the things which are made, even His eternal power andGodhead, so that they are without excuse." The world in which we live declares on a daily basis, GOD IS. If one is sincre in their search, they cannot help but come to the conclusion that there is an eternal God, who is Creator of all.



I myself am an atheist and found this article a complete load of crap. Just wondering how everyone feels about it.

Overman
2006-07-20, 16:43
Yeah, it's a load of crap. Atheism is a lack of faith.

Beta69
2006-07-20, 16:47
Wow, that was sad, it shows the writers udder lack of knowledge for pretty much anything, but I bet believers will lap it up.

Just another liar for Jesus.

Flesh
2006-07-20, 17:16
quote:Originally posted by bonkers:

I myself am an atheist and found this article a complete load of crap. Just wondering how everyone feels about it.

I'm glad you said that, I was wondering where you were going with this. Gad's! That's very pompous, and extremely weak too.

But, it's just another story.

AngryFemme
2006-07-21, 00:34
Paragraph 7 was especially misconstrued.

AngryFemme
2006-07-21, 00:41
quote:Originally posted by bonkers:

Atheists have a hard time explaining morality.

No, they don't:

quote:The emergence of morality can be most easily assessed when we, again, return to its primal state as a simple descriptor of right and wrong. At this stage, only two options existed, good or bad, and life was based upon increasing the positive and minimizing occurrences of the negative. The original concept of morality is not necessarily limited to humans or advanced primates. In all living creatures, there exists an innate need for self-propagation that has created various mechanisms to increase the positive morality and extend the creature’s chance of survival. Obviously, this is a much more selfish system, but we must also remember that at this time no society existed to label any emotion such as selfishness as “immoral”. Thus, the birth of morality coincided with the dawn of life; morality is therefore as natural an impulse as flight from danger.

The evolution of morality to its present state was caused by a combination of elements mainly arising from the intellectual “advancement” of humans. With their growth, humans arranged into groups, villages, and eventually civilizations that gave rise to the societal influence on morality that was described in the preceding entry. This created a cage around individual morality, such that the individual could only judge their actions within the preset scale. Another aspect that changed morality is separation. As a primitive species, Homo sapiens did not segregate because of color or any other aspects; only the environment was able to separate them into different continents and eventually into sub-species. Why was morality not a prominent issue on a primitive earth? Because without any separation (social, racial, spiritual, religious…) there is only a single moral system because the individual is the whole. This does not mean that there is no individuality within this group, only equality. One event has the same moral implications for everyone in that the individual’s moral reaction is equivalent to the group’s.

The distance between all the sub-species of humans created a minute biological difference but an enormous mental difference. The effects of the environment from an intellectual and biological point-of-view have been studied and proven by examining the adaptive radiation of a species across a single continent. The different surroundings on a single continent created marked changes in the lives of the species; therefore an even more prominent change can be expected of humans who spread across the entire globe. The evolution of humans into subspecies illustrates the birth of modern morality because the diversity and individuality that was created by evolution also created a moral diversity representative, again, of their surroundings. This does not mean that all North Americans now have the exact same “morality”, since the very knowledge of diversity propagates it. Individuality is the root of morality. When the first creature distinguished “I” from “us”, the moral scope of everything changed to incorporate another world.

IanBoyd3
2006-07-21, 00:58
Why do all these articles posted here (in origins and civil liberties too) argue from a lack of knowledge?

If I wanted to see a strawman, I would watch the wizard of oz.

Which, actually, sounds like a good idea now because I'm high, but you know what I mean.

Anyway, I will be...

...watching the wizard of oz.

Flying Spaghetti Monster
2006-07-21, 07:10
Wow the author is just another Jesus-liar. Very hypocritical, he/she said repetitivly that in order to be an anthiest one must belive... not true! Also I dont like how he/she made up "facts" and presented them as known, acctual facts. Humans are not "naturaly religious creatures"...

sketchy
2006-07-22, 01:23
Bullshit. That's a horrible article.

Before I start my rant is there actually anyone here that believes that it takes more faith not to believe?

Real.PUA
2006-07-22, 08:22
Everyone should learn some basic critical thinking and logic before arguing about beliefs.

http://www.totse.com/en/ego/self_improvement/afieldguidetoc174154.html

straight outta rehab
2006-07-24, 16:42
An Athiest is one without faith.

IanBoyd3
2006-07-24, 17:42
The author is attempting to give credit to his irrational faith by claiming that atheism is a faith as well.

Here's what really got me:

"It seems it would take more faith to be an atheist than a christian."

What he's basically admitting is that faith means you are wrong. It means you don't know. He's painting faith as a bad thing.

Their entire religion is based on faith. You earn your salvation through faith. And now, you say that having faith is bad? Well fuck that.

Real.PUA
2006-07-24, 21:31
Faith is the opposite of reason.

legalaid
2006-07-24, 21:38
I'm willing to bet that most of the world is insane. I mean how do you know for sure that everything is real? And once you destroy your connection with the outside world anytihng is possible. The mind is a powerfull adn elusive thing.

Fundokiller
2006-07-25, 00:54
CAPS MAKES YOU COOL!

Talk about a slipshod essay

Niceguy
2006-07-25, 01:12
I dunno, I think I like it when people tell me what I belive.

boozehound420
2006-07-25, 20:58
atheist are the next generation. religion was created to control the uneducated mass population of savages who were hanging and cutting the heads of there neighbours,

science will prevale!!

Overman
2006-07-25, 21:01
quote:Originally posted by boozehound420:

atheist are the next generation. religion was created to control the uneducated mass population of savages who were hanging and cutting the heads of there neighbours,

science will prevale!!

I wish that was true, but Christians and Muslims and Jews and Hindus keep popping out the babies and teaching that unreasonable, idiotic faith.

Jesuisqui
2006-07-25, 23:29
Firstly, I'm not sure about some of the author's information. Secondly, although I am an atheist, I believe there are some things in this universe that we as humans are unable to explain, and never will be. And atheism as a relion? I though the very word 'religion' implied faith in some supernatural or superhuman entity. I'm all for christianity and any other religion, or lack thereof. If it works for you, and isn't harmful to others, go for it. Besides providing for 'spiritual' needs, religion also provides for some psycological ones. So basically whatever floats your boat, go for it. And I'm not supremely adamant about these things. If something happens to change my mind, I will gladly switch to whatever faith. The main point is that atheism works for me, and I will stay with it until or if I find something better or more convincing.

KikoSanchez
2006-07-27, 02:12
quote:Originally posted by bonkers:



To Be An Atheist, One Must Believe... THAT GOD DOES NOT EXIST. As we look about us, we see that man is a religious creature by nature.



By nature? First, that is an absurd notion to put out there. It may be true that man is naturally curious of its surroundings. If you consider religion as a primitive psuedo-tool for explaining phenomena, then sure it could be construed as something "natural." But we have moved passed this, we no longer must tell our children that apples fall from their trees b/c god's hand made it so. We can explain things extra-linguistically now, with logical explanations.



2. The larger part ofsociety is completely irrational.

[/QUOTE]

I'll take #2 Regis! Of course large parts of society are irrational. Is it rational to believe in talking snakes? boats that can fit the whole range of non-aquatic organisms at one time? some thing called a 'soul' which has no explanation?

Furthermore, I'm sure many of the things even I believe are completely false and will be debunked in the future. If you look at any past society, they look irrational and silly in their beliefs, because they were and we still are.

[/B][/QUOTE]



To Be An Atheist, One Must Believe... THAT MATTER IS EITHER ETERNAL OR IT CREATED ITSELF.

[/QUOTE]

Okay, this is the one thing I have no answer for. Is it more rational to believe everything was created out of nothing or out of something? Of course, I don't know how to rationalize this, but then again I don't base my belief system nor anything on my life on this.

[/B][/QUOTE]



To Be An Atheist, One Must Believe... THAT LIFE IS SPONTANEOUSLY GENERATED.

[/QUOTE]

Spontaneously? I'm not sure if he is referring to individual life, such as each new entity of life or LIFE in general. According to geologists, there have been signs of life from the beginning of earth. If he is referring to each individual life, he is simply ignorant of basic science.



To Be An Atheist, One Must Believe... THAT ORDER AND DESIGN ARE RESULTS OF NON- INTELLIGENT ACCIDENTS.

[/QUOTE]

His thinking here is completely backwards. It is not that intelligence created order, but rather order created intelligence, which then existed to acknowledge what order did exist. The fact that we are here supports that some order exists inherently in the universe. It is completely absurd to even speak of an existence without some order, it simply could not come into being.

But just because there is order, doesn't mean it is holy intelligence that created it. There is simply no explanation to why an intelligent being would create seemingly meaningless planets all over the universe. Or why would an IB create certain insects, spiders, or other beings which only bother humans? Lastly, to say man is a perfect being is the most absurd statement. Just look at all of our amazing flaws - blindness, deafness, retardedness, genetic disorders, cancer, guard against the basic cold, we are far from what I would call the perfect being, it is just some egotistic speciest statement to say such a thing.



To Be An Atheist, On Must Believe... THAT NON-CONSCIENCENESS EVOLVES TO CONSCIENCENESS.

[/QUOTE]

If he even begins to think he knows what he is talking about when he speaks of consciousness existing, then he is far above and beyond most neurologists. Give that man a job and a $2m paycheck.





To Be An Atheist, One Must Believe... THAT NON-MORALITY EVOLVES TO MORALITY.

[/QUOTE]

WHAT?!? I won't even devote space to this ignorant comment.

ADogg
2006-07-29, 17:28
It does take more faith not to believe. In my opinion, religion is somewhat of a social all-inclusive delirium. It takes great faith not to submit to those lame stories of a giant dude floating in the sky, the apple, the snake, the Garden of Eden, the spaceships, and the Thetans (Good work, L. Ron). Religion is somewhat of a lame story that millions upon millions of people have devoted their lives to without questioning it for a second. It is true that religion can teach you valuable lessons, but why must the bullshit be thrown in there with it? We can be good, caring, compassionate individuals without following a religion. Also, I would like to address a scientific notion. Someone previously said that God must have been the origin of morality. No, the origin of morality is the need to be socially accepted. A violent individual will be rejected by society because they are viewed as a potential threat, and humans are by nature a social creature. If we kill or steal, we will be denied a place in the ranks of our fellow humans and have a lesser chance of survival and reproduction (when you look at it from a primitive level). In my opinion, the intelligence of humans is an evolved trait that gives us great problem-solving skills, but its complexity is such that we must know everything, including how we were made and how our universe came to be. We can all safely say that we came to be on Earth in one way or another, but now we must figure it out. It might not be for many a lifetime that we truly know exactly what happened, but using logic, science, and reasoning is our best bet... We should not take the theories of a group of people that lived 2,000 years ago as truth, we should take them as literature. Your views of atheism are terribly skewed. All existence can be explained rationally in one way or another without delving into spirituality, we just need to find the reason BY USING OUR MINDS THAT EVOLUTION HAS GIVEN US. In fact, I'm surprised that religion has even survived the Renaissance! Praise the... err... yeah.

ADogg
2006-07-29, 17:39
And here's another thing... There isn't Co2 because trees need it, there are trees the way they are because there is Co2. If there was sulphuric gases on our planet, we'd be a different race that breathes sulphuric gases. Our universe is in terrible disorder and it is ignorant to even say that there is "great order..." Order where? Oh, like clinging to a huge rock, hurling through the vaccuum of space around a thermonuclear fireball is really order. Life came to be and has adapted to our planet, coevolving and seemingly causing order. But what is order? You believe that the universe is perfect because it is the only one that has ever existed in your limited human experience. If you were suddenly flung into a universe that was totally foreign to you, it would be seeming order to everything that has lived there for its entire life, but you would be completely confused. You could take those parts of a watch, put them in a box, and shake them up and never get a watch, but if you never knew what a watch was you'd never ask if a watchmaker existed. Think about that.

Abrahim
2006-07-29, 22:48
quote:Originally posted by boozehound420:

atheist are the next generation. religion was created to control the uneducated mass population of savages who were hanging and cutting the heads of there neighbours,

science will prevale!!

I don't believe atheists are anything new or amazing, but have existed since the beginning of civilization and in a majority. Lots of people claim to believe in a God or Gods but really don't believe in anything truly, furthermore there are many and have always been many who argue if God exists and dispute things like the ressurection. I don't believe they are the next generation but they have existed throughout. I've found that more people claim to believe in God than those who actually truly believe and understand the idea of God. Christians often seem like drones repeating phrases while not actually understanding or truly believing what they say with all their hearts, but rather just doing as their parents did, and so it was in the times of old too, those who did claim to believe in things did so only because it is what their parents did, then the others were atheists who said there is nothing but the life of the world and then death, then there was a small population of real deal believers in a literal God.

Real.PUA
2006-07-29, 22:59
"Atheism" has been around for a while, but rational thought has far from been predominant at any time in human history, including the present day.

cvanes
2006-07-30, 04:50
Just found this site, I've seen alot of interesting articles here so I thought I'd add my piece. I feel that religion has done well in aiding the culture of fear, the fear that if one doesn't live by "the book", eternal damnation and torment is enevitable, Christianity does seems to have a more tolerant attitude, although there are several bible quotations that state non-believers should be punished/killed, this is even more evident with Islam, muslims can only be temporarily tolerant, as long as they believe the country/state will eventually be part of an Islamist state/regime, then it is deemed fine for them to "tolerate" this religion. Don't interpret these words as an attack on Islam, more religion in general. I feel the sooner religious belief of any sort is laughable the better. My question is how can anyone who claims to be of sound mind, disband all reason and not even question why people believe in a greater being. With anythin else in this world we ask why, why does this exist? how does this exist? But with religious belief all reason seem to be disbanded and religious people seem to be exempt from all criticism, why?

Squakey
2006-07-30, 15:14
quote:Originally posted by bonkers:

The Faith of an Atheist

By William Stewart



Isn't it cute when little people try to use logic to defend a completely illogical viewpoint?

ADogg
2006-07-30, 23:13
Haha I agree. Religious views have been defended way too much and are exempted from logic for the simple fact that the faux-followers "believe" in something and have "faith."

Real.PUA
2006-08-01, 01:39
I highly recommend that any interested people download (through torrent) John Miller's series on BBC "Brief History of Disbelief" (3 files) and then the addition "Atheism Tapes" (another 3 files). He interviews some of the most brilliant and articulate people from a wide range of disciplines.

Noddy
2006-08-01, 02:45
No one can claim to have all the answers, and saying the athiest is wrong because he can't explain in vivid details exactly how the universe was created is utter stupidity. No one knows. You might think you know because of your belief in God, but you don't KNOW for a fact.

In response to your first point, that man is naturally religious, I agree that people do look for reasons as to why we are here, what is the purpose of life, and why do things happen. This is what has bred religion, as religion can explain everything without any solid evidence, since the very foundation of religion is faith. Religion is reassuring, and gives us a reason to live. It's totally understandable that people want to be religious so that they can "have the answers" and lead a happy and fulfilling life. However, this does not mean that God really exists. We simply really really want him to.

To your second point, about matter being eternal or creating itself. You've brought up a really good point here, however, as I mentioned earlier it's one that no one can explain. But there is a fundamental flaw in your argument. Isn't God himself an example of something coming from nothing? I know you are brought up to believe that God is eternal and has always existed. But how? And if you can believe that God is eternal, why can't you believe that matter is?

In response to your third point about life being spontaneously generated. Science is actually getting closer to explaining this. The current theory is that the building blocks of life, proteins and nucleic acids, originated in hot springs, the chemical reactions producing them catalyzed by the mineral rich water. It's been over a year since I was taught the exact process of what the theory suggests happened from there, so I can't remember very well. I remember it had to do with the water containing these precursors to life being evaporated, and rained back down, and being hit by lightning. The process has been replicated in laboratories with success, proving that it is possible that life can come from non living matter. I'm sorry I can't explain the exact process, but you can probably find it on google with the limited information I've given you.

To your next argument, that our world had to be "designed" due to all the things which fit so well together in our environment. Another poster has already mentioned that trees require carbon dioxide due to the fact that it was plentiful in the atmosphere when plant life was evolving, and he is correct. You cite distance from sun as a reason for intelligent design. Consider this: if we were closer to the sun so that the planet couldn't sustain life, then we wouldn't be able talk about this, would we? There are millions of uninhabitable planets, but in the vastness of the universe it's understandable that at least a couple would be at the exact right conditions for human life. The fact that the conditions are tolerable for human life are therefore irrelevent. Your point about the watch being shaken in a box has a number of things wrong with it. Parts of a watch will not evolve or adapt to their environment like cells can (over many years). The thing you need to understand is life started as extremely simple organisms that can barely even be called "alive", and gradually it adapted to it's environment over millions, even billions of years.

To your argument about consciousness from non-consciousness. Your argument here is pretty weak and poorly put together. Single cell organisms eventually evolve into larger organisms, and once they reach a certain size they made need to start making more intelligent decisions about how to survive. This is why a brain is evolved, and it is the source of our consciousness.

Your next point is also rather weak. Morality can be self-internalised through social interactions. For instance, if you're my friend and we help each other gather food and survive, and I punch you in the face, you won't help me anymore. I am at a disadvantage, so I will learn not to do that again. These are only basic "cause and effect" morals. Over time and many years, these morals will become second nature (to some of us :S). It's then easy for an intelligent creature (like a human) to infer what behaviour is moral and immoral by thinking about how we would feel if the actions were taken against us.

Oh damn. I just re-read your post and saw at the end that you actually don't believe what you posted http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif). I thought you did. Well yeah, I agree that most of what you posted is utter religious nonsense simply trying to reinforce their own misguided ideas. I especially like the ridiculous things (like a desk coming to life) that are added in there to belittle athiests beliefs. Still, I guess there MIGHT be someone here who believes what you posted....so I'll reply anyway.

Oh, and just in case you're wondering (probably not), I'm not an athiest. I don't believe in God, but I definately can't say with full confidence that there isn't a God.

[This message has been edited by Noddy (edited 08-01-2006).]