Alright, I've been looking for about 20 minutes with no success for a decent history plotline of how the Sunni and Shitti branches of Islam were discovered/formed. I personally am a Shitti (Persian) but i am not that extreme about it and i have no influence on it so i seriously have no idea how things happened.

Can you possibly give a short but understandable history lesson about it or refer me to a link or two?

Thank You. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Sunnis and the Shi-ites follow the same religion. There are no differences in their religious beliefs, forget what you have heard before. They are only different when it comes to political views.

I was told by my Islamic teacher about how they came to be, but I forgot. I should have written it down...... http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

I've heard it has something to do with their beliefs with Mohammad or something...

quote:Originally posted by random_jew:

I've heard it has something to do with their beliefs with Mohammad or something...

Apparently they split because the sunnis follow the political successors of Mohammed, whereas the shi-ites followed the blood relative successors, most of whom came to an early unnatural death and are regarded as martyrs.

Muslims tend to ignore the irony of this split, seeing as they claim god abandoned the xians in favour of mohammed because christ told them to be united and instead they split into rival factions, exactly what has happened with the sunnis and shi-ites.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shi%27ite

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunni

Those two will help.

In short it is a fight between the heirs to Muhammed according to hadiths written hundreds of years after any events by people who had no knowledge of the events and were not present. According to these Hadiths there was a conflict between the heirs to Muhammed, Abu Bakr took the leadership after Muhammed's death and a group felt Ali the blood relative of Muhammed should take control. The Shi'ite's are the ones who believe Ali should've taken control. Both sides should realize the history they are holding on to is unverifiable and the only record of it is having been written by writers over 2 centuries after any of the supposed events. I believe the are made up stories, that there was no fight between Abu Bakr or Ali, furthermore that neither of those characters may have existed.

The only person the Qur'an mentions is Zaid, Muhammed's adopted son.

Almost nothing is known about the history of Muhammed or what happened after his death, all the things people take as fact were written hundreds of years after events by people who were not even present, people who had converted, and people who possibly had political agendas in their stories.

The Qur'an, for a Muslim, is the only Sure Guide. I don't believe in any characters not mentioned in the Qur'an.

There is only One Islam as described in the One Qur'an. The Qur'an says to leave sects alone and that everyone will be dealt with on judgement day.

The cause for the seperation between the two groups is a mix of political, religious, cultural, historical ideas and backgrounds which led to a division. Each follow their own version of the Hadith's. If they were to follow the Qur'an alone as they are supposed to there would be no division. But the division is due to a disagreement in history of which there is no verification that it ever occured. I don't believe in any hadiths, not Sunni Hadiths, not Shi'ite Hadiths, I only believe in the Qur'an, my religion is Islam: Not Sunni, not Shi'ite, Not Sufi...One Islam, the guide: The Qur'an.

quote:Originally posted by redzed:



Muslims tend to ignore the irony of this split, seeing as they claim god abandoned the xians in favour of mohammed because christ told them to be united and instead they split into rival factions, exactly what has happened with the sunnis and shi-ites.

Namaste http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

It's a POLITICAL split, not a religious split. Their religious beliefs are the same. The only Muslims who have truly split are the Wahabis. They are the silly ones.

quote:Originally posted by Loc Dogg:

It's a POLITICAL split, not a religious split. Their religious beliefs are the same. The only Muslims who have truly split are the Wahabis. They are the silly ones.

Nevertheless, whatever the cause, it is a division, serious enough to kill and maim over(see Iraq), and, by the standard the Koran applies to xianity, Islam also fails the test of unity.

Namaste http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by redzed:

Nevertheless, whatever the cause, it is a division, serious enough to kill and maim over(see Iraq), and, by the standard the Koran applies to xianity, Islam also fails the test of unity.

Namaste http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

What are you talking about? Make the quotes you're reffering to. The Qur'an within itself mentions SECTS, it never claims it is beyond divisions but says the Christians and the Jews disagree with each other but both have the Bible. Shi'ite and Sunni do not disagree over the Qur'an but over Hadiths and a Political battle that happened long ago according to the Hadiths.

The Qur'an never said "look how this religion will never divide" but said there are sects and to leave them alone, and also mentioned differences in interpretation and to leave the final judgement for judgement day when all will be settled.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

What are you talking about? Make the quotes you're reffering to. The Qur'an within itself mentions SECTS, it never claims it is beyond divisions but says the Christians and the Jews disagree with each other but both have the Bible. Shi'ite and Sunni do not disagree over the Qur'an but over Hadiths and a Political battle that happened long ago according to the Hadiths.

The Qur'an never said "look how this religion will never divide" but said there are sects and to leave them alone, and also mentioned differences in interpretation and to leave the final judgement for judgement day when all will be settled.

"Muhammed, who disclaimed power to perform miracles, firmly believed that he was the messenger of God, sent forth to confirm previous scriptures. God had revealed His will to the Jews and the Christians through chosen apostles, but they disobeyed God's commandments and divided themselves into sects." (The Koran, translated with notes by N.J.Dawood.)

Namaste http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by redzed:

"Muhammed, who disclaimed power to perform miracles, firmly believed that he was the messenger of God, sent forth to confirm previous scriptures. God had revealed His will to the Jews and the Christians through chosen apostles, but they disobeyed God's commandments and divided themselves into sects." (The Koran, translated with notes by N.J.Dawood.)

Namaste http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

I really hope you don't think the above quote was a quote from the Qur'an? Muhammed did not firmly believe he was the messenger of God, the Qur'an firmly believed he was the messenger of God and had to remind him not to doubt or fear and that he was sane. Sects were not developed by "apostles who disobeyed God's commandments". Now I was asking for a quote in the Qur'an that claimed it would not develop sects? Instead you wrote a quote by some guy talking about apostles and Muhammed?

006.157

Or lest ye should say: "If the Book had only been sent down to us, we should have followed its guidance better than they." Now then hath come unto you a clear (sign) from your Lord,- and a guide and a mercy: then who could do more wrong than one who rejecteth Allah's signs, and turneth away therefrom? In good time shall We requite those who turn away from Our signs, with a dreadful penalty, for their turning away.

006.158

Are they waiting to see if the angels come to them, or thy Lord, or certain of the signs of thy Lord! the day that certain of the signs of thy Lord do come, no good will it do to a soul to believe in them then if it believed not before nor earned righteousness through its faith. Say: "Wait ye: we too are waiting."

006.159

As for those who divide their religion and break up into sects, thou hast no part in them in the least: their affair is with Allah: He will in the end tell them the truth of all that they did.

019.035

It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.

019.036

Verily Allah is my Lord and your Lord: Him therefore serve ye: this is a Way that is straight.

019.037

But the sects differ among themselves: and woe to the unbelievers because of the (coming) Judgment of a Momentous Day!

030.031

Turn ye back in repentance to Him, and fear Him: establish regular prayers, and be not ye among those who join gods with Allah,-

030.032

Those who split up their Religion, and become (mere) Sects,- each party rejoicing in that which is with itself!

043.063

When Jesus came with Clear Signs, he said: "Now have I come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which ye dispute: therefore fear Allah and obey me.

043.064

"For Allah, He is my Lord and your Lord: so worship ye Him: this is a Straight Way."

043.065

But sects from among themselves fell into disagreement: then woe to the wrong-doers, from the Penalty of a Grievous Day!

043.066

Do they only wait for the Hour - that it should come on them all of a sudden, while they perceive not?



Those are some of the times it mentions sects.

Here is another revelation I found but doesn't relate to sects really.

In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful.

072.001

Say: It has been revealed to me that a company of Jinns listened (to the Qur'an). They said, 'We have really heard a wonderful Recital!

072.002

'It gives guidance to the Right, and we have believed therein: we shall not join (in worship) any (gods) with our Lord.

072.003

'And Exalted is the Majesty of our Lord: He has taken neither a wife nor a son.

072.004

'There were some foolish ones among us, who used to utter extravagant lies against Allah;

072.005

'But we do think that no man or spirit should say aught that untrue against Allah.

072.006

'True, there were persons among mankind who took shelter with persons among the Jinns, but they increased them in folly.

072.007

'And they (came to) think as ye thought, that Allah would not raise up any one (to Judgment).

072.008

'And we pried into the secrets of heaven(outerspace/the universe); but we found it filled with strong guards (bans) and flaming fires.

072.009

'We used, indeed, to sit there in stations, to a hearing; but any who listen now will find a flaming fire awaiting him in ambush.

072.010

'And we understand not whether ill is intended to those on earth, or whether their Lord (really) intends to guide them to right conduct.

072.011

'There are among us some that are righteous, and some the contrary: we follow divergent paths.

072.012

And we know that we cannot escape from Allah in the earth, nor can we escape by flight.

072.013

'And as for us, since we have listened to the Guidance, we have accepted it: and any who believes in his Lord has no fear, either of a short (account) or of any injustice.

072.014

'Amongst us are some that submit their wills (to Allah), and some that swerve from justice. Now those who submit their wills - they have sought out (the path) of right conduct:

072.015

'But those who swerve,- they are (but) fuel for Hell-fire'-



[This message has been edited by Abrahim (edited 07-28-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

I really hope you don't think the above quote was a quote from the Qur'an? Muhammed did not firmly believe he was the messenger of God, the Qur'an firmly believed he was the messenger of God and had to remind him not to doubt or fear and that he was sane. Sects were not developed by "apostles who disobeyed God's commandments". Now I was asking for a quote in the Qur'an that claimed it would not develop sects? Instead you wrote a quote by some guy talking about apostles and Muhammed?



"some guy"?

"Born in Baghdad, N.J.Dawood came to England as an Iraq State Scholar in 1945 and graduated from London University. In 1919 he founded The Arabic Advertising & Publishing Co Ltd, London(ARADCO), which is now one of the major producers of Arabic typesetting outside the Middle East."

"He is best known for his translation of the Koran, the first in contemporary English, which was published as a Penguin Classic in 1956 and has since sold over one million copies."

Now who would be most likely to know the Islamic religion and what the Koran says? A scholar like Dawood, who has in fact translated the Koran, or you Abrahim? Who should I believe?

Namaste:

quote:Originally posted by redzed:

"some guy"?

"Born in Baghdad, N.J.Dawood came to England as an Iraq State Scholar in 1945 and graduated from London University. In 1919 he founded The Arabic Advertising & Publishing Co Ltd, London(ARADCO), which is now one of the major producers of Arabic typesetting outside the Middle East."

"He is best known for his translation of the Koran, the first in contemporary English, which was published as a Penguin Classic in 1956 and has since sold over one million copies."

Now who would be most likely to know the Islamic religion and what the Koran says? A scholar like Dawood, who has in fact translated the Koran, or you Abrahim? Who should I believe?

Namaste:

A person is only considered a "scholar" when they have studied the Hadiths. The Information in the quote was based only on Hadith's not on the Qur'an. I don't believe in Hadith's, I only believe in the Qur'an. The Qur'an describes things differently. Furthermore I don't know what the quote has to do with the claim that there is something in the Qur'an that Islam will remain without sects? It talks about sects! Yes, Dawood is just "some guy" because I don't believe in "scholars" of Islam. There is one Qur'an anyone can read it and be a "scholar" of it. Dawood was making reference to Hadiths.

Believe who you want to believe, I believe in me and the Qur'an.

Any Other Questions?

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

Any Other Questions?

You just don't like to let threads that pertain to you die do you?

quote:Originally posted by Q777:

You just don't like to let threads that pertain to you die do you?

My babies!

Any other questions that I can answer with information I get off of wikipedia but pretend to have learnt from books because I wanna look like a wise philosopher who worships the universe?

Ahem, sorry.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

Believe who you want to believe, I believe in me and the Qur'an.

Obviously I am questioning some of your most deeply held beliefs, and you are not able to let go of your dogmatic 'beliefs' and you are threatened by questions from those who are interested to know whether what you believe in is actually an objective 'reality', or your own subjective experience. (Either that or this is some kind of 'pissing' contest where you are trying to score points rather than engage in a meaningful dialogue that critically examines the evidence with an open mind.)

My mind is open and I have read, in context, passages of the Koran that support Dawood's teaching. I went looking for those verses but find reading this tome, with all it's threats and dark descriptions of the horrors awaiting unbeleivers, that it is hard going, and so it is. Good luck Abrahim, here's a quote for you: "There are none so blind as those who will not see"... except perhaps those who will not even look!

Namaste http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Overman:

Any other questions that I can answer with information I get off of wikipedia but pretend to have learnt from books because I wanna look like a wise philosopher who worships the universe?

Ahem, sorry.

Why does everyone think I worship the Universe?! I don't think I ever said I worship the Universe but I keep repeating over and over and over what I worship. Also when I use wikipedia I quote directly from it and say "this is a quote from wikipedia" and usually put a link with it.