I honestly think evolution is a bunch of shit

Let the fight begin!

*rings bell*

There's already enough threads about this but,

we can't really have a successful arguement on it with the idea of an omnipotent God so meh.

wells i honestly think god is just merely an early attempt to answer the unexplained, eg thunder is god when his angry but as we know now its a jump of static charge from the clouds to the ground or earthquakes are the result of god walking but it really is the clashin of 2 plates on earth.do u honestly believe that god created you out of nowhere, that ur mum suddenly fell pregnate coz god decided it was time for her to have a baby or do u believe it was the result of the night before when ur dad had unprotected sex with her?

I honestly think creationism is a bunch of shit.

OH!

But seriously, I personally believe that religion cannot be opposed to science. I believe that truth is one, and therefore religion cannot be more true than science any more than science can be more true than religion. I think arguments of Creationism over the theory of evolution and vice versa are narrow minded and petty.

I heard a great way to describe this idea once, so I will immitate it.

Imagine you find yourself in a room with a many sided box in the center. You know that inside this container lies the truth. All along each side of the box there is a window that presents a different angle of the "truth." There is a window for science, religion, art, philosophy, politics, etc, etc. Each vantage point is a different perspective on the truth and therefore presents a different understanding of the way things are. But take away the box, and all you are left with is the truth, clear as day. Without restricting your vision through different windows of perception, you can walk around the truth and see how viewing it from every possible angle combines to form the clearest image of the truth, just as puzzle pieces allign to form the image they represent.

Basically, I do not believe one person, through whatever "window" he chooses to approach things (be it science, religion, whatever), can EVER fully understand anything. The person who turns to science to answer all of life's mysteries ultimately fails because his soul has stagnated. The person who turns to religion to answer all of life's mysteries sinks into self-destructive superstition. It takes the lining up of every angle to form as complete a picture of the truth we can.

quote:Originally posted by Van Hagar:

I honestly think evolution is a bunch of shit

Let the fight begin!

*rings bell*

Nobody gives a shit what you think.

They aren't mutually exclusive.

Please provide evidence a "creation" occurred.

quote:Originally posted by Van Hagar:

I honestly think evolution is a bunch of shit



May I ask why?

quote:Originally posted by bonkers:

Please provide evidence a "creation" occurred.

Yes give us credible evidence that an invisible man created people out of playdough.

quote:Originally posted by The_Big_Beef:

Yes give us credible evidence that an invisible man created people out of playdough.

The Bible says it happened and the Bible says the Bible is true so it had to happen.

/complete and utter lack of logic

quote:Originally posted by Q777:

The Bible says it happened and the Bible says the Bible is true so it had to happen.

/complete and utter lack of logic

No no, i said credible evidence. lol

Evolution = mechanism by which nes species are created from old ones/ how species are improved.

Creation = How an all powerful being created the entire universe... ALL OF IT

Evolution vs Creationism arguments = stink of arrogence and selfcentered-ness on the side of creationists.

I came back after seeing a creationist on TV argue against evolution:

quote:These darwinists think monkeys fell out of trees, lost hair, and started walking up right!

As an intellectual exercise I think people who are new to this debate (or would just like to comment) should show how it is flawed (shouldn't be difficult but one day you may have to stand up to this sort of attack). I think its pretty clear no one on this site is going to defend their critically unfounded claims, at least in an intellectual enviroment, which at times, can be totse, still why not practice, after all these people have incredible influence.

The guy, who is a leader of a huge catholic orginization with a cult following, also went on to say how the media was owned by jews who are anti-catholic. This was on national cable tv. He also said religous people need to take a stand against the left, as any thinking person can see, the moral double standards (example: killing is wrong unless it is in iraq) and restraints (example: lack of rights) he wishes to put on the world are insane. I'm seriously worried about what this world is coming to...

"Keep your religion out of my goverment"

[This message has been edited by Aft3r ImaGe (edited 07-27-2006).]

has anyone read 'The Mind of God' by Paul Davies. he discusses some intriguing ways in which the universe would not require any outside influence to spring into being from nothing prior. delves into quantum mechanics, etc. very thought provoking, especially to someone as myself who was raised a christian, but more recently has become enlightened beyond the classic narrow view of such.

I don't really see the conflict between God and evolution as according to me evolution and any system and anything can't exist without God because all of it are processes of this Reality which is within God, existing by God, dependant on God entirely.

The Catholic stance on the matter is that God created the universe and permits it to evolve.

Any Catholic who states otherwise is a fundamentalist and obviously going against their written doctrine.

Actually, if you look at Steubenville (an extremely Catholic university) and the stuff they teach, a lot of it is completely contradictory with Catholic doctrine and much of it is founded on fabricated evidence(I was told this by a monsignor). For example, they teach that the Crusades were started by Muslims and Jews and thousands of innocent Christians were slaughtered.



[This message has been edited by King_Cotton (edited 07-28-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by cerebraldisorder:

has anyone read 'The Mind of God' by Paul Davies.

Yes, good read. A good follow-up would be: Religion as a Natural Phenomena (newest book by Dan Dennett).

A couple of chapters focus on some of what Davies touched on in that book.

quote:Originally posted by Van Hagar:

I honestly think evolution is a bunch of shit

well, why do you think evolution is a bunch of shit?

quote:Originally posted by lobotomy:

well, why do you think evolution is a bunch of shit?



Ok if I told you you could fly right now would you try it? I would hope not. So "Our ancestors inticively climbed out of trees (something they had never done before) and started to walk upright" I see no logic here. Look at it for a moment and think about the odds of a tribe of these "ancestors" doing this at the same time. Next lets go back a little further reptiles are cold blooded animals. How does a cold blooded animal change to a warm blooded one? And don't give me crap about it being a slow process taking millions of years. In a few million years a rock will still be a rock no matter what.

Ok a little genics lesson, if we humans have 26 choromosomes, and every other specis on the planet has a different amount how do you think it is that this change occured? the lost of a choromosome reasults in downs sydrome in humans and that mixed with survival of the fittest means it ain't going to last. So we would need two of these in the same place at the same time to have a child to get this different number then it would have to travel, meet and creature exactly the same as it to breed and make this change permanent. Different number of chorosomes means sterility.

Now we have the emerging from the water. if you have gills you can't breath air. Now according the evolution over a period of time fish started to crawl onto land and adapted to breath air. Let's have a reality check for a second. If I was to go and jump in a pool to escape from something, and stayed there I wouldn't evolve gills I would drown. If a fish jumped onto land an stayed they it would die. No amount of time will change that. Let's suppose it did, then the genetic defeat would be fixed the next time this animal mated.

So we're just crossing the line from bacteria to plant and animal. There is no way from A) male and female to become distict and B) for plant and animal to take such diffent paths. Just think about the last time you saw an a human or any other animal reproduce by ripping it's body inhalf.

So a single celled organism is living in the water. how does it decide to become a mult-celled orgaism? It can't because it is programmed by it's DNA to split and become two single celled organisms.

Where did this original single celled organism come from? A random mix of proteins? That's a little too unbelievable to me.

Lastly the Big Band theory is that nothing exploded into everything, Law of consevation of energy states that energy cannot be created or destroyed.If the big bang was possible we could get free energy.

Science is a little more holed that most people think. It's almost becoming like the religions people hate. A blind faith in the words given to the people by preists with their own agenders.

quote:Originally posted by 3D_Ghost:



Ok if I told you you could fly right now would you try it? I would hope not. So "Our ancestors inticively climbed out of trees (something they had never done before) and started to walk upright" I see no logic here. Look at it for a moment and think about the odds of a tribe of these "ancestors" doing this at the same time. Next lets go back a little further reptiles are cold blooded animals. How does a cold blooded animal change to a warm blooded one? And don't give me crap about it being a slow process taking millions of years. In a few million years a rock will still be a rock no matter what.

a rock isn't living. how a cold blooded animal change to a warm blooded? easy when there is a need for it's body temperature to stay the same.

quote:Now we have the emerging from the water. if you have gills you can't breath air. Now according the evolution over a period of time fish started to crawl onto land and adapted to breath air. Let's have a reality check for a second. If I was to go and jump in a pool to escape from something, and stayed there I wouldn't evolve gills I would drown. If a fish jumped onto land an stayed they it would die. No amount of time will change that. Let's suppose it did, then the genetic defeat would be fixed the next time this animal mated.

Fish have air pockets in their bodies that used to be primitive lungs.

quote:So a single celled organism is living in the water. how does it decide to become a mult-celled orgaism? It can't because it is programmed by it's DNA to split and become two single celled organisms.

Cells group togther and eventually form one organism

quote:Where did this original single celled organism come from? A random mix of proteins? That's a little too unbelievable to me.

look up organic chemistry

quote:Lastly the Big Band theory is that nothing exploded into everything, Law of consevation of energy states that energy cannot be created or destroyed.If the big bang was possible we could get free energy.

[QUOTE]

the big bang wasn't a creation of matter(the common misconception) it was an expansion and dispersion of energy.

[QUOTE]Science is a little more holed that most people think. It's almost becoming like the religions people hate. A blind faith in the words given to the people by preists with their own agenders.

and creationism isn't holed?

quote:Originally posted by 3D_Ghost:



Ok if I told you you could fly right now would you try it? I would hope not. So "Our ancestors inticively climbed out of trees (something they had never done before) and started to walk upright" I see no logic here. Look at it for a moment and think about the odds of a tribe of these "ancestors" doing this at the same time. Next lets go back a little further reptiles are cold blooded animals. How does a cold blooded animal change to a warm blooded one? And don't give me crap about it being a slow process taking millions of years. In a few million years a rock will still be a rock no matter what.

Ok a little genics lesson, if we humans have 26 choromosomes, and every other specis on the planet has a different amount how do you think it is that this change occured? the lost of a choromosome reasults in downs sydrome in humans and that mixed with survival of the fittest means it ain't going to last. So we would need two of these in the same place at the same time to have a child to get this different number then it would have to travel, meet and creature exactly the same as it to breed and make this change permanent. Different number of chorosomes means sterility.

Now we have the emerging from the water. if you have gills you can't breath air. Now according the evolution over a period of time fish started to crawl onto land and adapted to breath air. Let's have a reality check for a second. If I was to go and jump in a pool to escape from something, and stayed there I wouldn't evolve gills I would drown. If a fish jumped onto land an stayed they it would die. No amount of time will change that. Let's suppose it did, then the genetic defeat would be fixed the next time this animal mated.

So we're just crossing the line from bacteria to plant and animal. There is no way from A) male and female to become distict and B) for plant and animal to take such diffent paths. Just think about the last time you saw an a human or any other animal reproduce by ripping it's body inhalf.

So a single celled organism is living in the water. how does it decide to become a mult-celled orgaism? It can't because it is programmed by it's DNA to split and become two single celled organisms.

Where did this original single celled organism come from? A random mix of proteins? That's a little too unbelievable to me.

Lastly the Big Band theory is that nothing exploded into everything, Law of consevation of energy states that energy cannot be created or destroyed.If the big bang was possible we could get free energy.

Science is a little more holed that most people think. It's almost becoming like the religions people hate. A blind faith in the words given to the people by preists with their own agenders.

alright, first i want to say that i am a spiritual person, but i dont practice any religions because i belive all the dogmatic crap they all have takes away from the true meanings. Now that i've covered my ass...

I ALSO believe in evolution, because i have actually learned what it is, and let me tell you: you might have a basic idea of an older theory of evolution, but that not darwinism.

No, monkeys didnt just fall out of trees and suddenly thought 'hmmm, i'll walk upright and loose all my hair!'. Thats friggin stupid.

EVOLUTION is not a process of gaining traits, its a process of loosing traits and gaining mutations. This is why animals can, sadly, become specialized to an environment, to their disadvantage if such environment was to change.

Now, in the REAL theory of evolution, life dosnt evolve in huge steps like you described. Animals dont just suddenly gain wings and fly around. They dont suddenly grow wings and loose gills. Things change very, VERY slowly. Let me give you a well studied example, that almost everyone learns in highschool:

a. Back in Europe when the Industrial Age was booming, birch trees became black from all the soot in the air. CHANGE IN ENVIRONMENT.

b. There was a white moth that could blend in with the white of the trees and avoid being eaten by birds, giving it the chance to pass on its genes. Everyonce and awhile, there was a mutation and a black moth was bourne. Moderen Scientist have actually been able to isolate these genes, in a variaty of animals. However, these black moths couldnt hide, and never got a chance to pass on their genes.

c. Then one day the environment began to change. More and more trees getting covered in ash made it harder and harder for the white moths to hide. But it was very easy for the mutant black moths to hide, and thus live another day to have sex. The white ones whould get eaten.

d. Eventually, the white moths would stop appearing, cause their parents dont exist anymore. However, the black moths had many kids, causing this speices of moth to change from white to black during the industrial era.

If anyone rememer the name of that moth, please post it, because im sure someone will want proof.

Now, if you want me to explain human evolution from monkeys, thats a HUGE time span to cover, HUGE environmental changes, and way to many theories. But if you want my personal opinion, look up the 'Aquatic ape theory', which suggests we may have evolved on the coast of an inland sea in africa. Which would make sence since theres huge salt flats in the area we suposedly originated from, and theres monkeys in south america who ar actually beging to evolve into an upright walking species through the same process explained my the 'aquatic ape'. But that theory also takes poleshifts into consideration, which is a whole dofferent topic i wont get started on.

My point? Dont argue against somthing you havnt taken the time to understand. Always look at arguments from both view points, especially the one that isnt yours, before you make yourself look bad and make your own argument seem even less credible.

Like i said, im am a very spiritual person, but im not too keen on the creationist theory. Which would also require god to be a being, wouldnt it? I think god is...well, somthing else.

c.

quote:Originally posted by 3D_Ghost:



Ok if I told you you could fly right now would you try it? I would hope not. So "Our ancestors inticively climbed out of trees (something they had never done before) and started to walk upright" I see no logic here. Look at it for a moment and think about the odds of a tribe of these "ancestors" doing this at the same time. Next lets go back a little further reptiles are cold blooded animals. How does a cold blooded animal change to a warm blooded one? And don't give me crap about it being a slow process taking millions of years. In a few million years a rock will still be a rock no matter what.

Ok a little genics lesson, if we humans have 26 choromosomes, and every other specis on the planet has a different amount how do you think it is that this change occured? the lost of a choromosome reasults in downs sydrome in humans and that mixed with survival of the fittest means it ain't going to last. So we would need two of these in the same place at the same time to have a child to get this different number then it would have to travel, meet and creature exactly the same as it to breed and make this change permanent. Different number of chorosomes means sterility.

Now we have the emerging from the water. if you have gills you can't breath air. Now according the evolution over a period of time fish started to crawl onto land and adapted to breath air. Let's have a reality check for a second. If I was to go and jump in a pool to escape from something, and stayed there I wouldn't evolve gills I would drown. If a fish jumped onto land an stayed they it would die. No amount of time will change that. Let's suppose it did, then the genetic defeat would be fixed the next time this animal mated.

So we're just crossing the line from bacteria to plant and animal. There is no way from A) male and female to become distict and B) for plant and animal to take such diffent paths. Just think about the last time you saw an a human or any other animal reproduce by ripping it's body inhalf.

So a single celled organism is living in the water. how does it decide to become a mult-celled orgaism? It can't because it is programmed by it's DNA to split and become two single celled organisms.

Where did this original single celled organism come from? A random mix of proteins? That's a little too unbelievable to me.

Lastly the Big Band theory is that nothing exploded into everything, Law of consevation of energy states that energy cannot be created or destroyed.If the big bang was possible we could get free energy.

Science is a little more holed that most people think. It's almost becoming like the religions people hate. A blind faith in the words given to the people by preists with their own agenders.

you underestimate the ability of life to change to its surroundings.

The earth hasnt stayed the same forever, obviously as the earth changes the plants and animals have to adapt and evolve or be killed off.

Some species, in places where there is a dominant sex of animal will just change their sex, male become female and female become male. if this can happen then why cant (over BILLIONS of years not as you said a "couple of million") these other changes occur.

Theone flaw creationists like you, who say "things dont evolve" is that we have PROOF things have evolved, or, why arent there still these thousands of species still on earth that were here millions of years ago?....some still are here, but, some have adapted and evolved to the changing environment.

One example of this is, creastionists went out to disprove the evolution theory, they said, if they found an animal that, as it is now, couldnt survive if it had certain characteristics taken away then, it must have been made like that int he first place, thus, it cant have just popped up, a complete animal, someone MUST have made it. They thought they found such an animal, it lives in deep oceans and they said, it couldnt survive even if the tinyest detail about it was taken away, however, scientists found these creatures with organs missing in other parts of the world, limbs missing, different shaped or coliured eyes as they didnt live in as deep an ocean. How then, could the exact same animal be like this in one place....yet, have these small, but obvious changes elsewhere........environment, they have adapted and evolved this way to be best suited to where they are found.

Okay... No, a rock won't be a rock in millions of years, it will be a new rock. Water and wind break it down and allow it to accumulate somewhere else, where sediment builds on top and solidifies it into a new rock. Also, why the F*** do you think humans have tailbones and animals have vestigial toes on their legs? That's leftovers from evolution that neither impede nor help the species, so they remained there, written in their DNA. We've already detected microevolution in the Galapagos islands and such, so what's the problem? Oh, and primitive fish did become amphibians. Have you ever heard of a lungfish? Look it up! It has both lungs and gills and can breathe water and air. That's a surviving ancestor of that first race that came onto land a few billion years ago. Also, colonies of single-celled organisms began to specialize and live together in groups, thus giving rise to primitive multicellular organisms. Also, the first male and female were neither one or the other, but hermaphroditic. Obviously you have no knowledge of how slugs have sex. I don't think you realize that we're talking about BILLIONS OF YEARS... Maybe you can't comprehend that no one animal ever evolves, it takes trillions of animals over billions of years, reproducing millions upon millions of times. You can't use an analogy like this shit here: "If a fish jumped onto land an stayed they it would die. No amount of time will change that." Of course it would, dumbass, but that's not how evolution works. You really need to go back to high school science class. Oh, and they have synthesized carbohydrates and proteins in a lab from chemical reactions, which proves that it's possible. Oh, and learn how to spell.... You people truly piss me off.

For your info, the name of that one moth is the peppered moth. Again, proof that evolution has occurred and is occurring right now.

quote:Originally posted by Obbe:

alright, first i want to say that i am a spiritual person, but i dont practice any religions because i belive all the dogmatic crap they all have takes away from the true meanings. Now that i've covered my ass...

I ALSO believe in evolution, because i have actually learned what it is, and let me tell you: you might have a basic idea of an older theory of evolution, but that not darwinism.

No, monkeys didnt just fall out of trees and suddenly thought 'hmmm, i'll walk upright and loose all my hair!'. Thats friggin stupid.

EVOLUTION is not a process of gaining traits, its a process of loosing traits and gaining mutations. This is why animals can, sadly, become specialized to an environment, to their disadvantage if such environment was to change.

Now, in the REAL theory of evolution, life dosnt evolve in huge steps like you described. Animals dont just suddenly gain wings and fly around. They dont suddenly grow wings and loose gills. Things change very, VERY slowly. Let me give you a well studied example, that almost everyone learns in highschool:

a. Back in Europe when the Industrial Age was booming, birch trees became black from all the soot in the air. CHANGE IN ENVIRONMENT.

b. There was a white moth that could blend in with the white of the trees and avoid being eaten by birds, giving it the chance to pass on its genes. Everyonce and awhile, there was a mutation and a black moth was bourne. Moderen Scientist have actually been able to isolate these genes, in a variaty of animals. However, these black moths couldnt hide, and never got a chance to pass on their genes.

c. Then one day the environment began to change. More and more trees getting covered in ash made it harder and harder for the white moths to hide. But it was very easy for the mutant black moths to hide, and thus live another day to have sex. The white ones whould get eaten.

d. Eventually, the white moths would stop appearing, cause their parents dont exist anymore. However, the black moths had many kids, causing this speices of moth to change from white to black during the industrial era.

If anyone rememer the name of that moth, please post it, because im sure someone will want proof.

Now, if you want me to explain human evolution from monkeys, thats a HUGE time span to cover, HUGE environmental changes, and way to many theories. But if you want my personal opinion, look up the 'Aquatic ape theory', which suggests we may have evolved on the coast of an inland sea in africa. Which would make sence since theres huge salt flats in the area we suposedly originated from, and theres monkeys in south america who ar actually beging to evolve into an upright walking species through the same process explained my the 'aquatic ape'. But that theory also takes poleshifts into consideration, which is a whole dofferent topic i wont get started on.

My point? Dont argue against somthing you havnt taken the time to understand. Always look at arguments from both view points, especially the one that isnt yours, before you make yourself look bad and make your own argument seem even less credible.

Like i said, im am a very spiritual person, but im not too keen on the creationist theory. Which would also require god to be a being, wouldnt it? I think god is...well, somthing else.

c.

Thank you for this wonderful post! If people could take a second to learn what evolution/creationism is, they would see that evolution not only has literal evidence, but it is in no conflict with the idea of a God, it may only be in conflict minimally with a literal interpretation of the Old Testament Bible.

God is not some man or being within Reality, but what all things including this Reality exist within, by, and what everything is made of and completely dependant on, the Ultimate All Encompassing Infinite Reality, God, the All Powerful. People tend to imagine God as some humanoid up in the sky making things with his "hands" when God is what is in control and what they utilize every moment they exist, sleeping and waking, what provides them with the possible things they can possibly think and what allows them to perform the possible actions they can possibly perform. Evolution is the system of adaption and a process within this world and a system within this Universe and Reality which is one of an infinite number of other Universes and Realities and Possibilities within God.

quote:Originally posted by Obbe:



Now, in the REAL theory of evolution, life dosnt evolve in huge steps like you described. Animals dont just suddenly gain wings and fly around. They dont suddenly grow wings and loose gills. Things change very, VERY slowly.



If things occured this slowly then what purpose does a half evolved wing serve? This would be more of a disadvantage. If evolution served to streamline a creature why would it ever change it's evironment. I don't care how slowly these changes take place there still has to be a single defining moment where it either takes flight or steps out of the water.

quote:Originally posted by 3D_Ghost:

If things occured this slowly then what purpose does a half evolved wing serve? This would be more of a disadvantage. If evolution served to streamline a creature why would it ever change it's evironment. I don't care how slowly these changes take place there still has to be a single defining moment where it either takes flight or steps out of the water.

Poking holes in someone else's umbrella doesn't make yours stronger. You can't win by defeating evolution.

Pray tell, how can we see the light from stars over 6,000 (or 12,000 depending on which "100% Certainty" group you ask) light years away from earth?

quote:Originally posted by 3D_Ghost:

If things occured this slowly then what purpose does a half evolved wing serve? This would be more of a disadvantage.

There are advantages, you just haven't thought of any. Essentially your argument is: "Hey, I can't see how 'half a wing' has any advantages, so it must be false." That's a logical fallacy; to be specific, that's an argument from incredulity.

What are possible advantages? I'll list some. Please note that these are uses for "half a wing" that we can observe right now in current flightless animals which means that we can pretty much prove that they are advantageous.

- They can scare of predators by flapping their 'half a wing'.

- They gain propulsion and/or traction with half a wing. This allows them to get more speed and traverse terrain the normally could not.

- They can glide with half a wing, which allows them to have longer leaps and slower falls.

- They can swim better with half a wing.

There are more advantages that we can see in nature, and probably many more that we cannot see right now or think of.

This doesn't apply to only birds by the way. Birds are usually what comes to mind immediately that wings are mentioned, but insects have wings as well.

Here's the abstract of a study done showing the beneffits of "half a wing" in insects:

"THE evolution of flight in insects triggered an unparalleled radiation and diversification such that flying insects comprise approximately two-thirds of all species1, yet a gap in the fossil record obscures the origins of wings and flight2. Among modern insects, stoneflies are morphologically primitive for several flight-related traits, which makes their locomotor behaviour and physiology of particular interest3. Here we show that Allocapnia vivipara stoneflies use a non-flying form of aerodynamic locomotion which may exemplify a precursor to flight. They raise their wings in response to wind, thereby sailing across water surfaces, but they are incapable of flapping. Sailing performance improves steadily with increasing wing size, and even the smallest wings significantly increase sailing velocity compared to wingless individuals. Performance during aerial gliding is less affected by wing size, which suggests that sailing is a more plausible setting for wing evolution. These results support the hypothesis that insect wings evolved from articulated gill plates of aquatic ancestors through an intermediate semi-aquatic stage4."

- Locomotor performance of insects with rudimentary wings. (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v377/n6547/abs/377332a0.html)



quote:

If evolution served to streamline a creature why would it ever change it's evironment. I don't care how slowly these changes take place there still has to be a single defining moment where it either takes flight or steps out of the water.

1. The creature would change it's environment because it searches for food, habitats, and mates. If it has a greater chance of getting any of these in another environment, then it is obvious he has a greater chance of survival by moving to that environment.

2. Being able to step out of the water physically, doesn't mean the animal has to. The point being, that an animal can develop the ability to breathe air, and still live in the water. They can also develop limbs and still live in the water. Case in point, frogs.

If an animal has developed these abilities, and if finding shelter, food and/or mates is easier outside of water, then it steps out of the water. What's so difficult to understand about that?



[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 07-30-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by 3D_Ghost:



Ok a little genics lesson, if we humans have 26 choromosomes, and every other specis on the planet has a different amount how do you think it is that this change occured? the lost of a choromosome reasults in downs sydrome in humans and that mixed with survival of the fittest means it ain't going to last. So we would need two of these in the same place at the same time to have a child to get this different number then it would have to travel, meet and creature exactly the same as it to breed and make this change permanent. Different number of chorosomes means sterility.



This paragraphe lies up to 5 or more times as I count

OK here is a little genetics lesson about the wonderful Human chromosome 2 to help rid your blight of misinformation

links http://tinyurl.com/9wagv http://tinyurl.com/phgrx

It explains how we evolved from apes by a process of losing a chromosome (via fusion).

First of all we don't have 26 chromosomes we have 46 chromosomes and 23 chromosomes pairs

Every species dose not have a different amount of chromosomes. Wiled tobacco and some species of snails forms example both have 24 chromosomes(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromosome)

Downsyndrom is caused specifically by an extra chromosome 21st chromosome (resulting in 47 total chromosomes) not a loss. There are also, some times less damaging, processes to remove a chromosome such as fusion and a removal of a full pair of chromosomes. A difference of chromosomes don't always result in downsyndroom in humans.

A different number of chromosomes does not always yield a sterile offspring. (as noted with different species of horses http://tinyurl.com/9wagv) and even not all the cases of downsyndrom are sterile. Different number of chromosomes can reproduce together.

Get your information strait



quote:Originally posted by 3D_Ghost:

...what purpose does a half evolved wing serve?...

Penguins uses them from swimming. The dodo didn't uses its from much

And evolution does not always streamline a creature, it does sometimes add information too.



[This message has been edited by Q777 (edited 07-30-2006).]

new to this forum, just wanted to get the ball rolling by asking has anyone read "the end of faith:religion, terror and the future of reason" by sam harris. I found it to be a very interesting read.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

Thank you for this wonderful post! If people could take a second to learn what evolution/creationism is, they would see that evolution not only has literal evidence, but it is in no conflict with the idea of a God, it may only be in conflict minimally with a literal interpretation of the Old Testament Bible.

God is not some man or being within Reality, but what all things including this Reality exist within, by, and what everything is made of and completely dependant on, the Ultimate All Encompassing Infinite Reality, God, the All Powerful. People tend to imagine God as some humanoid up in the sky making things with his "hands" when God is what is in control and what they utilize every moment they exist, sleeping and waking, what provides them with the possible things they can possibly think and what allows them to perform the possible actions they can possibly perform. Evolution is the system of adaption and a process within this world and a system within this Universe and Reality which is one of an infinite number of other Universes and Realities and Possibilities within God.



Thank you for the compliment, and you're opinions on the universe and god. And thanks to the person who said peppered moth.

Why does and animal have a half evolved wing? well why do you half a half evolved stomach? your apendix (sp?), the thing that could bloat up and kill you painfully and serves no purpose?

Well you see, APPARENTLY thousands apon thousands of years ago we didnt eat meat yet, we ate leaves and plant crap. But at some point, the environment changed and it became more useful to eat meat. Those that had a mutated organ, which eventually became our stomach, adapted, and those that could only eat plants died off. Our old stomachs degraded into these useless sacks attached to our intestine. And thats why when we eat plats, it makes you have to shit.

Or at least thats my take on it.

Left over organs are found in many animals man. Like i said, evolution is a process of loosing traits, and gaining mutations through survival of the fittest.

Or something to that degree.

edit:also, why does there have to be a defining moment? The animal changes according to the changes in environment. There was no moment when a fish grew legs and lungs and decided it was better to eat grass.

But, a fish like thing might have had a genetic mutation that made it easier to crawl along the coast of a beach, and find shells and crap. Thosands of years later,its species would have become better adapted and able to leave the water for short times. In environments where this was useful (such as less competition for food, avoiding predators) it would have enabled them to pass on genes. Same with lungs. Everything is a mutation.

I think the problem here is you (whomever) is focusing too much on individuals, and not on species as wholes.

[This message has been edited by Obbe (edited 07-30-2006).]

Flight evolves from gliding or sailing.

I am pretty sure all birds are descended from a common sailing, gliding reptile ancestor.

quote:Originally posted by Van Hagar:

I honestly think evolution is a bunch of shit

Let the fight begin!

*rings bell*

+1

quote: Originally posted by 3D_Ghost:



Ok if I told you you could fly right now would you try it? I would hope not. So "Our ancestors inticively climbed out of trees (something they had never done before) and started to walk upright" I see no logic here. Look at it for a moment and think about the odds of a tribe of these "ancestors" doing this at the same time. Next lets go back a little further reptiles are cold blooded animals. How does a cold blooded animal change to a warm blooded one? And don't give me crap about it being a slow process taking millions of years. In a few million years a rock will still be a rock no matter what. .

The major problem that people who don’t understand evolution is that they think that thinks happen in leaps and bounds. You even go out and ignore any evidence otherwise.

So much for your no cold blooded animal can't become a warm blooded one. Did you know that there are many animals that are neither cold or warm blooded, but some of them are in between. Heard of a TUNA?



quote:

Ok a little genics lesson, if we humans have 26 choromosomes, and every other specis on the planet has a different amount how do you think it is that this change occured? the lost of a choromosome reasults in downs sydrome in humans and that mixed with survival of the fittest means it ain't going to last. So we would need two of these in the same place at the same time to have a child to get this different number then it would have to travel, meet and creature exactly the same as it to breed and make this change permanent. Different number of chorosomes means sterility..

Go take a genetics lesson before you attempted to instruct us. We have 46

chromosomes. Downs syndrome is a GAIN of chromosomes.

Sudden large changes in your chromosome structure (karyotype) can result in a species change, but not often. (Think drosophila fruit flies) Instead karyotype changes very slowly

Wonderful example is the Y chromosome in humans. Its been shrinking. Once it had the size of an X, but look at images of it now. Scary huh?

And different no. of chromosomes doesn’t mean sterility. Down syndrom people can have children. In fact, the males and females in some species have different chromosome numbers (wallabies). And plants frequently have whole extra sets of chromosomes (polyploidy. Think bananas)

quote:

Now we have the emerging from the water. if you have gills you can't breath air. Now according the evolution over a period of time fish started to crawl onto land and adapted to breath air. Let's have a reality check for a second. If I was to go and jump in a pool to escape from something, and stayed there I wouldn't evolve gills I would drown. If a fish jumped onto land an stayed they it would die. No amount of time will change that. Let's suppose it did, then the genetic defeat would be fixed the next time this animal mated...

Once again, its not leaps and bounds. Fish developed to breath air before they ventured onto land. They did not suddenly jump up onto land and cry “Well FUCK me! I have lungs!”

Fish probably evolved (once again, very slowly ) to breath air because it was more viable to do so. You can’t dissolve nearly as much O2 in water as there is O2 in air. In fact gas exchange in water is more difficult overall.

But if you want to jump underwater and see if you grow gills, fine by me.

quote:

So we're just crossing the line from bacteria to plant and animal. There is no way from A) male and female to become distict and B) for plant and animal to take such diffent paths. Just think about the last time you saw an a human or any other animal reproduce by ripping it's body inhalf. So a single celled organism is living in the water. how does it decide to become a mult-celled orgaism? It can't because it is programmed by it's DNA to split and become two single celled organisms.

So a single celled organism is living in the water. how does it decide to become a mult-celled orgaism? It can't because it is programmed by it's DNA to split and become two single celled organisms.

Where did this original single celled organism come fro ? A random mix of proteins? That's a little too unbelievable to me.

Where did this original single celled organism come fro ? A random mix of proteins? That's a little too unbelievable to me.



Shit, you’re not making much sense here, but I’ll try. We developed sexual reproduction to improve variation in our offspring. Once organisms became multicellular and differentiated (To avoid being eaten. Its harder to eat something bigger than you, and to improve efficiency), splitting in half isn’t exactly viable. Budding and regeneration are two ways of breeding once you’re got this far, but this created ‘clones’ Hence the development of sexual reproduction.

The difference between plants and animals was once very small. (Still is between some primitive unicellular plants and animals.) Its just that it happened a very long time ago. , and they developed along very different And the proteins we came from are far from random. But I’m not going to go into organic chemistry and molecular biology here, I’ll be here all night and if you can’t understand evolution, its likely you wont be able to make head or toe of that.



quote:

Lastly the Big Band theory is that nothing exploded into everything, Law of consevation of energy states that energy cannot be created or destroyed.If the big bang was possible we could get free energy.

Science is a little more holed that most people think. It's almost becoming like the religions people hate. A blind faith in the words given to the people by preists with their own agenders.

The energy was not created or destroyed, but still there before the bang (supposedly condensed to the size of a basketball, according to one theorist) And if you think there ’s some substance in the oscillating universe theory, then conservation of energy shouldn’t come into it. To get more details, you’ll have to ask a physicist, its not my branch of science, I’ll admit.

But its still more feasible than a big man in the sky.

Its not the holes in science here that is the major problem, just the hole in your own knowledge. (And your own stubbornness)

I just can't help but correct other peoples poor science.



[This message has been edited by flatplat (edited 07-31-2006).]