is this: An embryonic stem cell cannot think critically. It cannot speak. It cannot practice faith. It cannot commit acts of kindness, wisdom, or compassion. It is, in most respects, no better than an animal. Now, every Catholic I've talked to on this subject believes that we are the masters of animals, and if an animal must die for the betterment of the human race, then so be it.

So where's the problem in tampering with a cell that is basically an animal in order to prevent diseases and such?

If you find a flaw in my characteristics of mankind, tell me, what makes a man?

[This message has been edited by King_Cotton (edited 07-26-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by King_Cotton:

So where's the problem in tampering with a cell that is basically an animal in order to prevent diseases and such?



Because diseases rule!!

Seriously though, it's no problem. Do it if you want. Fuck what other people say, what do they know?

quote:Originally posted by King_Cotton:

is this: An embryonic stem cell cannot think critically. It cannot speak. It cannot practice faith. It cannot commit acts of kindness, wisdom, or compassion. It is, in most respects, no better than an animal. Now, every Catholic I've talked to on this subject believes that we are the masters of animals, and if an animal must die for the betterment of the human race, then so be it.

So where's the problem in tampering with a cell that is basically an animal in order to prevent diseases and such?

If you find a flaw in my characteristics of mankind, tell me, what makes a man?



the fact is, there is none.

i hate those bullshit radical "christian" who condemn everything that doesnt have to do with the bible, if i can pick a flower, in turn killing it, why cant I do it to another organism?

no an embryonic stem cell is worse than an animal it can't do anything. it is a vegetable until it's heart starts pumping then it is an animal.

except that the stem cell is genetically human.

exactly a human vegetable

Wow! Compassion abounds in here haha. Any thing that is multiplieing in cells is a living thing. Brain activity starts ... what three weeks after conception? I am not too sure, but here is a fun fact, what if your mother considered you as just a vegetable? You would have died because someone chose that you were not human. Yet, here you are, a living breathing human with hopes and dreams and beliefs all your own. Why is it that I can not choose to kill some one if it is ok to kill a child? YOU were once concieved and nothing more then a cell, but you grew and became who you are today. Of course the Bible says do not kill ... I think we all know that killing is bad. That is like saying ... hmmm lets kill all mentally handicapped people, they dont have the same thought process as us so i guess they dont deserve life. Life is never your choice and believe it or not that embryo is a human life whether you like it or not. Abortion is murder whether you think it is just a cell or not. It isnt about what you think, it is about what the truth is. That truth is that we all started out as embryos, from conception we are human beings, just because we are small does that make us less of a human being? Is a child not really a human being yet because its brain hasnt developed to your level? Of course not. Do not make cold hearted comments. Millions of peoples lives are taken each year because they arent considered people. They arent considered people because they aer small. Give me a break. Consider this please.

quote:Originally posted by King_Cotton:

is this: An embryonic stem cell cannot think critically. It cannot speak. It cannot practice faith. It cannot commit acts of kindness, wisdom, or compassion. It is, in most respects, no better than an animal. Now, every Catholic I've talked to on this subject believes that we are the masters of animals, and if an animal must die for the betterment of the human race, then so be it.

So where's the problem in tampering with a cell that is basically an animal in order to prevent diseases and such?

If you find a flaw in my characteristics of mankind, tell me, what makes a man?



Because people AREN'T animals (well, we are, but WE are, not just stem cells). Doesn't matter at what stage of development they're at.

quote:Originally posted by King_Cotton:

is this: An embryonic stem cell cannot think critically. It cannot speak. It cannot practice faith. It cannot commit acts of kindness, wisdom, or compassion. It is, in most respects, no better than an animal. Now, every Catholic I've talked to on this subject believes that we are the masters of animals, and if an animal must die for the betterment of the human race, then so be it.

So where's the problem in tampering with a cell that is basically an animal in order to prevent diseases and such?

If you find a flaw in my characteristics of mankind, tell me, what makes a man?



I think animals can be kind or cruel. When you have lots you'll notice individual personalities, deeds, acts, decisions. They iz peeplz.

quote:Originally posted by Truth is all:

Wow! Compassion abounds in here haha. Any thing that is multiplieing in cells is a living thing. Brain activity starts ... what three weeks after conception? I am not too sure, but here is a fun fact, what if your mother considered you as just a vegetable? You would have died because someone chose that you were not human. Yet, here you are, a living breathing human with hopes and dreams and beliefs all your own. Why is it that I can not choose to kill some one if it is ok to kill a child? YOU were once concieved and nothing more then a cell, but you grew and became who you are today. Of course the Bible says do not kill ... I think we all know that killing is bad. That is like saying ... hmmm lets kill all mentally handicapped people, they dont have the same thought process as us so i guess they dont deserve life. Life is never your choice and believe it or not that embryo is a human life whether you like it or not. Abortion is murder whether you think it is just a cell or not. It isnt about what you think, it is about what the truth is. That truth is that we all started out as embryos, from conception we are human beings, just because we are small does that make us less of a human being? Is a child not really a human being yet because its brain hasnt developed to your level? Of course not. Do not make cold hearted comments. Millions of peoples lives are taken each year because they arent considered people. They arent considered people because they aer small. Give me a break. Consider this please.

LOL ok. 1st if my parents or whatever considered to abort me and did then i wouldnt be here right now. so what, if i was never born i wouldnt have known anything and therefore never would have had dreams. so your not exactly taking dreams away from them as you are not letting them experience what they dont know.

2nd think about this now. what if the baby that was aborted and given up for research for new cures for new diseases was actually used and with this particular fetus they found the cure for cancer or some other life threatening disease. i think that ONE fetus that was aborted was worth all the lives that it would save.

3rd all throughout europe and every other place that can afford to do so is expiramenting with stem cells and embreyos and what not. id rather america find something miraculous if not first than at least be par with everyone else. otherwise america will slowy shift from the power-house nation to pussy america ruled by radical hippies/christians who are afraid of change.

trust me their lives are being put to better use in a laboratory than them growing up to be people who work at mcdonalds for the rest of their life, making minimum wage and breeding more dumbasses.

quote:Originally posted by Truth is all:

Wow! Compassion abounds in here haha. Any thing that is multiplieing in cells is a living thing. Brain activity starts ... what three weeks after conception? I am not too sure, but here is a fun fact, what if your mother considered you as just a vegetable? You would have died because someone chose that you were not human. Yet, here you are, a living breathing human with hopes and dreams and beliefs all your own. Why is it that I can not choose to kill some one if it is ok to kill a child? YOU were once concieved and nothing more then a cell, but you grew and became who you are today. Of course the Bible says do not kill ... I think we all know that killing is bad. That is like saying ... hmmm lets kill all mentally handicapped people, they dont have the same thought process as us so i guess they dont deserve life. Life is never your choice and believe it or not that embryo is a human life whether you like it or not. Abortion is murder whether you think it is just a cell or not. It isnt about what you think, it is about what the truth is. That truth is that we all started out as embryos, from conception we are human beings, just because we are small does that make us less of a human being? Is a child not really a human being yet because its brain hasnt developed to your level? Of course not. Do not make cold hearted comments. Millions of peoples lives are taken each year because they arent considered people. They arent considered people because they aer small. Give me a break. Consider this please.

so if something multiplies cells it is a living being eh? a vegetable mutiplies cells. and it isn't killing the embryo if we use it to cure someone. what happens is they put it in another human and the cells continue to multiply, so it is still living. for that matter, they could use embryoes that have been aborted.

and we aren't saying they are different then us so kill them. we are saying if you had the choice to live but as a vegetable( on a bed with no thought processes and getting fed through a tube) or die which would you choose?

Killing a lump of cells to research a potential treatment for sick people who are CURRENTLY LIVING seems like a no brainer to me.

I don't believe in abortion. To me, the embryo is a living organism with the infinite potential of human life just waiting to emerge. You argue that its cells could help in research against disease. This is true, but if allowed to grow and mature into a human being with thoughts, emotions, convictions of its own, think of how much more it could serve the world through human hands. A lifetime of work and participation in society versus a few weeks in a research laboratory aiding in studies and experiments that may end in failure.

I don't believe it's right to deny life for some so that others may benefit. The ends don't always justify the means.

Abortions are funny, I like the taste.

quote:Originally posted by jb_mcbean:

Abortions are funny, I like the taste.

Nice.

Remember the South Park episode where Christopher Reeve sucked the stem cells from the aborted fetuses? That was so gross and hilarious.

quote:Originally posted by karma_sleeper:

I don't believe in abortion. To me, the embryo is a living organism with the infinite potential of human life just waiting to emerge. You argue that its cells could help in research against disease. This is true, but if allowed to grow and mature into a human being with thoughts, emotions, convictions of its own, think of how much more it could serve the world through human hands. A lifetime of work and participation in society versus a few weeks in a research laboratory aiding in studies and experiments that may end in failure.

I don't believe it's right to deny life for some so that others may benefit. The ends don't always justify the means.

But thatll be one less embryo that we have to work with. at least we know the embryo would be put to good use and theyd make it quick too. see letting it grow into a fully grown man that actually has the potential to change the world would take at least 30 years and on top of that there is a larger chance that hed turn out to be shit than actually make something of himself anyways.

quote:Originally posted by smallpox champion:

Killing a lump of cells to research a potential treatment for sick people who are CURRENTLY LIVING seems like a no brainer to me.

Well put.

First of all Graemy the beggining post was talking about abortion or at least that is what I got out of it. Again you have no right to decide a humans life. So what if they grow up and work at mcdonalds, they HAVE THAT CHOICE. You, me or anyone else should never have the right to make that choice for them. That is taking away the very freedom we hold so dearly. And what aer you talking about "live but as a vegetable"?

The Big Beef,

Do you enjoy living? Do you think anyone has the right to take that away from you? Dont be ignorant, abortion is taking away a human life. O and by the way, did you know that stem cells from fetus's are more likely to cause cancer then to help? and that the stem cells from the embelical cord or even regular cells are more helpful? I would like you to think about this now, whta if that one baby was the person who could grow up and make a miracle cure for all disease and make a huge impact on the world? It isnt your choice whether or not people deserve to live. Who do you think you are? You have no authority over me nor do you have authority over anyone elses life. That goes for everyone.

quote:Originally posted by Truth is all:

First of all Graemy the beggining post was talking about abortion or at least that is what I got out of it. Again you have no right to decide a humans life. So what if they grow up and work at mcdonalds, they HAVE THAT CHOICE. You, me or anyone else should never have the right to make that choice for them. That is taking away the very freedom we hold so dearly. And what aer you talking about "live but as a vegetable"?

The Big Beef,

Do you enjoy living? Do you think anyone has the right to take that away from you? Dont be ignorant, abortion is taking away a human life. O and by the way, did you know that stem cells from fetus's are more likely to cause cancer then to help? and that the stem cells from the embelical cord or even regular cells are more helpful? I would like you to think about this now, whta if that one baby was the person who could grow up and make a miracle cure for all disease and make a huge impact on the world? It isnt your choice whether or not people deserve to live. Who do you think you are? You have no authority over me nor do you have authority over anyone elses life. That goes for everyone.

i wasn't saying that i decide if this baby should be born or not. what i was saying that abortion should be legal and for people how do have an abortion should have the choice to donate the aborted fetus to stem cell research.

what i mean by live as a vegetable is that you won't be able to think, you lay in a bed all day, and you are fed through a tube directly to your stomache. that is literally becoming a vegetable.

cancer is a problem with embryonic stem cells. but what i am advocating is that the fetuses that are still born, or aborted could be donated, as could the embelical cord. there are other types of stem cells, like adult stem cells that do work just as well. the problem is that they still keep their age. just like when they cloned the sheep Dolly, the clone aged faster. all stem cells have a risk of cancer. just like regular cells.

quote:Originally posted by Truth is all:

O and by the way, did you know that stem cells from fetus's are more likely to cause cancer then to help? and that the stem cells from the embelical cord or even regular cells are more helpful?

Source?

the stem cells we are talking about that bush refused to be allowed to use for research are going to be destroyed regardless.

quote:Originally posted by Truth is all:

The Big Beef,

Do you enjoy living? Do you think anyone has the right to take that away from you? Dont be ignorant, abortion is taking away a human life. O and by the way, did you know that stem cells from fetus's are more likely to cause cancer then to help? and that the stem cells from the embelical cord or even regular cells are more helpful? I would like you to think about this now, whta if that one baby was the person who could grow up and make a miracle cure for all disease and make a huge impact on the world? It isnt your choice whether or not people deserve to live. Who do you think you are? You have no authority over me nor do you have authority over anyone elses life. That goes for everyone.

Ok im not saying that everyone should have an abortion. im just saying, like graemy, that everyone should have the choice whether they want to or not. im all about pro choice on these kinds of subjects. i know i dont have authority over you or anyone else i never said i did. i was just giving my opinion that if a person wants to have an abortion go ahead because it will benefit the community in being used for research for the cures of diseases which are at this point uncurable. and yes i do know that stem cells from the umbilical cord or more furtile and all that mess. as for the stem cells from the fetus causing cancer i dont know about that. give me proof, otherwise ill consider lookin it up.

It seems to me that anti-abortion activists only care about the embryo (life) up until it is born.

As long as a child is born from it, they are happy. Nevermind what happens to the child after that.

So who are the real humanitarians here? I say the people who advocate modern medicine.

The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, 6th ed.

Keith L. Moore, Ph.D. & T.V.N. Persaud, Md., (Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Company, 1998), 2-18.

"[The Zygote] results from the union of an oocyte and a sperm. A zygote is the beginning of a new human being. Human development begins at fertilization, the process during which a male gamete or sperm ... unites with a female gamete or oocyte ... to form a single cell called a zygote. This highly specialized, totipotent cell marks the beginning of each of us as a unique individual."





Essentials of Human Embryology

William J. Larsen, (New York: Churchill Livingstone, 1998), 1-17.

"In this text, we begin our description of the developing human with the formation and differentiation of the male and female sex cells or gametes, which will unite at fertilization to initiate the embryonic development of a new individual. ... Fertilization takes place in the oviduct ... resulting in the formation of a zygote containing a single diploid nucleus. Embryonic development is considered to begin at this point... This moment of zygote formation may be taken as the beginning or zero time point of embryonic development."

Human Embryology & Teratology

Ronan R. O'Rahilly, Fabiola Muller, (New York: Wiley-Liss, 1996), 5-55.

"Fertilization is an important landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed... Fertilization is the procession of events that begins when a spermatozoon makes contact with a secondary oocyte or its investments... The zygote ... is a unicellular embryo... "The ill-defined and inaccurate term pre-embryo, which includes the embryonic disc, is said either to end with the appearance of the primitive streak or ... to include neurulation. The term is not used in this book."

Ok so that is just a start. Again, Graemy, abortion is taking a human life. If you would like it to be legal then murder should be legal as well.

The Big Beef,

Honestly, abortion is saying that the mother has control over the childs life. It is saying that if it is going ot inconvenience her then o well we better get rid of it. It is giving authority over a humans life.

Smallpox,

Are you saying that those in poverty do not have the right ot have children or just stating that you support modern medicine? I am not sure so I will just say that it doesnt matter what someone is born into, they should at least have a chance to think it out and work through it. Many people have come from hard backrounds. So just because they wont be born into the best situation does not mean that they do not deserve life.

quote:Originally posted by Truth is all:

The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, 6th ed.

Keith L. Moore, Ph.D. & T.V.N. Persaud, Md., (Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Company, 1998), 2-18.

"[The Zygote] results from the union of an oocyte and a sperm. A zygote is the beginning of a new human being. Human development begins at fertilization, the process during which a male gamete or sperm ... unites with a female gamete or oocyte ... to form a single cell called a zygote. This highly specialized, totipotent cell marks the beginning of each of us as a unique individual."





Essentials of Human Embryology

William J. Larsen, (New York: Churchill Livingstone, 1998), 1-17.

"In this text, we begin our description of the developing human with the formation and differentiation of the male and female sex cells or gametes, which will unite at fertilization to initiate the embryonic development of a new individual. ... Fertilization takes place in the oviduct ... resulting in the formation of a zygote containing a single diploid nucleus. Embryonic development is considered to begin at this point... This moment of zygote formation may be taken as the beginning or zero time point of embryonic development."

Human Embryology & Teratology

Ronan R. O'Rahilly, Fabiola Muller, (New York: Wiley-Liss, 1996), 5-55.

"Fertilization is an important landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed... Fertilization is the procession of events that begins when a spermatozoon makes contact with a secondary oocyte or its investments... The zygote ... is a unicellular embryo... "The ill-defined and inaccurate term pre-embryo, which includes the embryonic disc, is said either to end with the appearance of the primitive streak or ... to include neurulation. The term is not used in this book."

Ok so that is just a start. Again, Graemy, abortion is taking a human life. If you would like it to be legal then murder should be legal as well.

The Big Beef,

Honestly, abortion is saying that the mother has control over the childs life. It is saying that if it is going ot inconvenience her then o well we better get rid of it. It is giving authority over a humans life.

Smallpox,

Are you saying that those in poverty do not have the right ot have children or just stating that you support modern medicine? I am not sure so I will just say that it doesnt matter what someone is born into, they should at least have a chance to think it out and work through it. Many people have come from hard backrounds. So just because they wont be born into the best situation does not mean that they do not deserve life.

Then again, if you think about it properly, it is still not a mother who has "control" over her babies life if she aborts it, but you can think of it as "even though she did a bad thing by not giving a life a chance, that baby was never meant to exist".

In any case I believe who ever is supposed to live, they live, and for their term, and whoever is supposed to die, dies, at the end of their term. This includes people dying by "un natural" causes in my opinion.

ALSO, I am more against the lifestyle that encourages abortions and the kind of people who do it without much feeling as compared to the actual act of abortion.

quote:Originally posted by Truth is all:



Smallpox,

Are you saying that those in poverty do not have the right ot have children or just stating that you support modern medicine? I am not sure so I will just say that it doesnt matter what someone is born into, they should at least have a chance to think it out and work through it. Many people have come from hard backrounds. So just because they wont be born into the best situation does not mean that they do not deserve life.

I'm saying that we should take care of the people who are actually alive before we value the potential life of an embryo.

Bush stated his case for his veto by posing with little kids in his arms. If one of those kids had a life threatening ilness(that may benefit from stem cell research), wouldn't we want to to help that kid rather than save an embryo?

i don't beleive that others shpuld be able to choose who lives and who dies. therefore, i think EMBRIONIC stem cell research is wrong.

if you wnayt to research stem cells taken from the unmbilical cord or the other sources they have found for them i would be very surprised if any "radical christians" would have a problem with that.

if you dont understand it, it must be pure evil!

quote:Originally posted by Truth is all:

Wow! ...here is a fun fact, what if your mother considered you as just a vegetable? You would have died because someone chose that you were not human.

I don't know about you, but my mother wanted me.

I hope this doesn't get off topic, but using the Bible as a basis for the teaching that killing is wrong is ultimately flawed. Read the Old Testament lately? Sooooooo much smiting. The one that makes my skin crawl is God directing bears to tear up these children because they made fun of Elisha's bald head. Wow. Very COMPASSIONATE. (hope I spelt his name right, how embarrassing if I got it wrong...)

Abrahim,

Do not give me philisophical reasoning on this. Death is an unnatural event for human beings. That is why we are all so afraid of it. We were all MEANT to live. Just because someone made a choice to kill another person does that mean they were meant to die at that precise moment? What about the life they would have had if they would have made a different choice. The fact is, if abortion was not a factor, those people would have lived and contributed to society in their own way just like you and me and would have been able to think and evaluate things just like you and me. Put your philosophies behind you, these are human lifes, and no amount of debate will rationalize killing children becaues they are an incovenience or because they dont want to deal with it.

Smallpox,

Seriously? are you not getting the point here? An embryo is a human being. Someones life could be saved if they could only have your heart, should we kill you off to get it? Of course not, that would be ridiculous and cruel. So it is with the embryos. THERE ARE OTHER PLACES TO GET STEM CELLS THAT ARE YOUNG AND DONT KILL HUMANS. So maybe you should try those before you take a human life eh? Sounds good to me.

Vehicular Manslaughter,

Thank you for your reasoning. That is exactly the point I am tryign to make. People dont have to die for stem cell research to work. We can get them from other places.

Lou Reed,

I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Squakey,

Murder is always wrong. Yes in the Bible it holds true as well. Even if you don't really care to notice, the Lord is just in his ways. Therefore if men die by his hand, though all men deserve death from conception because of original sin, then it is for a just reason. That is not to be confused with the above mentioned all men were meant for life. All men really are meant for life, but it is the rejection of this life first by adam and then by us that has lead to death. Though there is a gospel message that still brings life, that Jesus, true God and man, died on the cross and rose on the third day for the forgivenes s of your sins. But again that is off topic, this is about abortion right now, soooo if you want to talk about justice then make a new topic or something.

Death isn’t unnatural, it happens to all beings. The reason we’re scared of it is because we cannot comprehend being nothing but a rotting carcass and the world going on without us.

quote:Originally posted by Truth is all:

The Big Beef,

Honestly, abortion is saying that the mother has control over the childs life. It is saying that if it is going ot inconvenience her then o well we better get rid of it. It is giving authority over a humans life.

Honestly i think the mother and whoever she was fuckin had control over the childs life before they started goin at it. i mean technically if they wouldnt have even had sex to begin with and the man just busted a nut all over her face that potential baby's life would have been ruined anyways.

And if they dont have a baby well then it would go a little like this: "oh shit whos gonna fix my burger at mcdonalds now??"

And i also see that you say death is unnatural? i know that abortion is not a natural death but lets look at the definition of natural anyways:

1. Present in or produced by nature. (id say death is present in nature all the time.)

2. Conforming to the usual or ordinary course of nature. (something that happens all the time or that is normal)

3. Faithfully representing nature or life. (Death is quite faithful, seeing as how its happened since the beginning of time)

there were some other definitions such as nature that had nothing to do with the topic. the only reason we fear death is because its mysterious and we dont really know what will happen to us afterwards, it can be a scarey thought. and because death means the end of life no one wants it to happen to them.

Killing cells is cruel!!!

Animal cells, and plant cells are both alive and sacred. To protest we should all eat only artificial foods and no meat, sugar, fruit, vegetables, bread etc because they all started as living things.

How much yeast had to die to make your bread?

How many sugar plants were processed while still alive (that is what they actually do, otherwise the plant would consume the sugar in order to try to live) to make that sugar?

If you drink non-100% purified water you could kill millions of alege cells, bacteria, and who knows what else! Killing cells is MURDER!

How dare you want to survive you inhumane unholy monster!!

Now lets think rationally:

Now in all seriousness there are sick people in horrible pain that have familys and are now facing death. Stem cells being essentually cells that havn't "decided" what they want to be yet so they can become any organ, or tissue.

It would be far more intellegant to make a procedure which is considered more humane than to ban something that can help so many people. Perhapse genetically engineering a goat to produce stem cells. Whatever method it has to be done, and inevitabley will (other countries) be done.

One more point to consider, by banning it we are just causing more suffering to the sick, while countries that are allowing are doing the opposite. The demand for organ transplants will always be there, wether or not there is stem cell research here, so we are basically just creating a demand for a product that other counties will have but we won't.

[This message has been edited by Aft3r ImaGe (edited 07-30-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Truth is all:

Abrahim,

Do not give me philisophical reasoning on this. Death is an unnatural event for human beings. That is why we are all so afraid of it. We were all MEANT to live.



Death is just as natural as life. If we were all meant to live, do you have any idea how crowded this place would be? Do you have any idea how much that would suck for people with cancer? Being in horrible pain and unable to die doesn't sound like anything a God would wish upon his people. What about people who are so old they can't even move? Bedridden and fatigued sounds like a great lifestyle for eternity to me...

Death isn't a bad thing, just another part of life. Learn to deal with it soon, because it won't wait for you.

Ok, when I said death is not natural, I mean that God never wanted death to be a part of this world. Adam and eve brought sin into the world and it then tumbled into death and sickness and every other horrible thing on earth. All good things come from God, and God does indeed hate evil and sickness and death.



The Big Beef,

Yes they are idiots for having the child in the first place i will give you that. But again, abortion is wrong and it is taking a life.

After image,

Your arguement is pointless. Human life is more valuable then any other life. Again I AM NOT against stem cell research. I AM against embrionic stem cell research. And dont be so ignorant. There are MORE PLACES TO GET STEM CELLS then in an embryo. Look it up for your own sake so you dont recount pointless information. And you completely missed the point of the heart thing haha I was talking about killing a human being because we needed something from them, so if someone wanted to kill you because they needed something from you, even though there was an alternate way to do it, would you consider that just? No, so help all the sick people you want with stem cells that ARENT from embryos. It is a human life, so unless you are trying to say that one human life is greater then the other, then stop arguing that abortion is right.

AngryFemme,

It is a human life, dont be ignorant, look at the medical proof.

[This message has been edited by Truth is all (edited 07-31-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Truth is all:





Smallpox,

Seriously? are you not getting the point here? An embryo is a human being. Someones life could be saved if they could only have your heart, should we kill you off to get it? Of course not, that would be ridiculous and cruel. So it is with the embryos. THERE ARE OTHER PLACES TO GET STEM CELLS THAT ARE YOUNG AND DONT KILL HUMANS. So maybe you should try those before you take a human life eh? Sounds good to me.





"should we kill you off to get it?"

I think it is you who is missing the point.

Not funding stem cell research will not stop abortions from happening. Many embryos will be thrown out either way. You may as well use them to research for advancements in medecine.



[This message has been edited by smallpox champion (edited 07-31-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Truth is all:

[B It is a human life, so unless you are trying to say that one human life is greater then the other, then stop arguing that abortion is right.

[/B]

This is irrelevant when it comes to babies, but some human lives are greater than others. Hypothetically, if you were forced to kill two people: one was Nelson Mandela, the other was Charles Manson, who would you pick?



And back to the death subject, so two people did something wrong, and God fucked all of humanity in the ass because of this? How merciful and forgiving of Him...

quote:Originally posted by Truth is all:



After image,

Your arguement is pointless. Human life is more valuable then any other life. Again I AM NOT against stem cell research. I AM against embrionic stem cell research. And dont be so ignorant. There are MORE PLACES TO GET STEM CELLS then in an embryo. Look it up for your own sake so you dont recount pointless information. And you completely missed the point of the heart thing haha I was talking about killing a human being because we needed something from them, so if someone wanted to kill you because they needed something from you, even though there was an alternate way to do it, would you consider that just? No, so help all the sick people you want with stem cells that ARENT from embryos. It is a human life, so unless you are trying to say that one human life is greater then the other, then stop arguing that abortion is right.

I never said abortion is right dumb ass, I take offense to that comment. Oh and what about the genetically engineered goat to produce stem cells? You sort of missed that which leads me to think you didn't even read my post.

Also who are you to say human life is better than all other life? Thats pure opinion and has no factual basis. Using your argument as it's own counter argument : What if you were a cat and we decided to kill you? According to you thats more moral than if you were a human.

As for an embryo, it has the potential to be a human but as an embryo is about as human as the bacteria in your drinking water.

Also my argument is not in anyway pointless, your defending cells because they originated from a human and have the potential to form a human, this does not mean they do.

For example if your a male then your sperm after a period of time is recycled back into your body because it is unused. This happens naturally and you can't prevent it, but you are in fact killing those sperm cells that each and everyone could have been a living being.

If you are female then every month when you have your period you lose an egg, an egg that has a potential to be a human being. If you consider cells that have the potential to be a human as an actual human then every person on the planet upon reaching puberty is a murderer.

Embryo's are cells that have the potential to be a human but are not yet, just like human sperm and eggs. So unless you consider the killing of sperm and eggs wrong, or unless you have a double standard, your argument is self defeating.

[This message has been edited by Aft3r ImaGe (edited 07-31-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by The_Big_Beef:

see letting it grow into a fully grown man that actually has the potential to change the world would take at least 30 years and on top of that there is a larger chance that hed turn out to be shit than actually make something of himself anyways.

Just as there's the chance of the stem cells harvested never amounting to anything positive either. How much longer could stem cell research possibly take until any major breakthrough is reached? If a long time, that's a lot of wasted lives. The same risks apply both ways.

quote:Originally posted by Aft3r ImaGe:

For example if your a male then your sperm after a period of time is recycled back into your body because it is unused. This happens naturally and you can't prevent it, but you are in fact killing those sperm cells that each and everyone could have been a living being.

If you are female then every month when you have your period you lose an egg, an egg that has a potential to be a human being. If you consider cells that have the potential to be a human as an actual human then every person on the planet upon reaching puberty is a murderer.

Embryo's are cells that have the potential to be a human but are not yet, just like human sperm and eggs. So unless you consider the killing of sperm and eggs wrong, or unless you have a double standard, your argument is self defeating.



In my mind that's not a double standard. To me, the potential for human life is only present when a sperm cell and an egg are joined. A sperm cell alone or an egg alone do not by themselves have the potential for human life. Only through the act of vaginal sex and the mingling of these cells is the potential for human life achieved.

Unless sperm cells and eggs can by themselves bring about human life, what you are arguing is not a double standard, or what you sought to oppose a self-defeating argument.

Embryonic Stem Cells

"Stem cells are commonly extracted from unwanted embryos. These are typically surplus embryos that are created during medical procedures which help infertile couples conceive. When a woman undergoes in-vitro fertilization, she is given medication that causes her to produce perhaps two dozen mature ova. These are then fertilized, usually with sperm provided by her husband. About three days later, each embryo is at the blastocyst stage -- a collection of 4 to 10 cells."

Two to five days after fertilization, two to four embryos are implanted in the woman's womb, in the hope that one or two will develop into a single newborn or twins. The rest are quickly deep frozen in liquid nitrogen for potential future use.

These are sometimes called "pre-embryos." They have no brain, central nervous system, mouth, heart, lungs, or other internal organs. They have no organs to see, hear, touch, taste; they lack a body, head, arms, legs; they have no self awareness, memory, thought processes, or consciousness. They are smaller than a pin-prick. They consist of a number of identical, undifferentiated cells containing human DNA. They do have the potential to grow into fetuses and become newborn babies. Many, probably most, pro-lifers believe that they are human persons with souls. Skeptics feel that souls do not exist -- in embryos or people."

"More than 50 disease advocates and scientific societies, representing such concerns as diabetes, blindness, Parkinson's disease, glaucoma, AIDS, Down Syndrome, cystic fibrosis, stroke, lymphoma, infertility and cancer--as well as professional groups that focus on such issues as cell biology, aging, microbiology, ophthalmology, cardiology, pediatrics and reproductive medicine

--... sent a letter to members of Congress urging them to support federal funding for...[stem cell] research."

It is important to realize that stem cells derived from bone marrow and neural tissue have very limited potential for differentiation. "Embryonic stems cells...appear to be able to give rise to many more, possibly all, cell types and tissues. It is this pluripotentiality that makes the embryonic cell so promising for both a basic understanding of differentiation and for the development of cell therapies."

http: //www.religioustolerance.org/r es_stem1.htm

National Institutes of Health stated that: "...there is evidence that adult stem cells may have more limited potential than hPSCs [human pluripotent stem cells]. First, stem cells for all cell and tissue types have not yet been found in the adult human. Significantly, cardiac stem cells or pancreatic islet stem cells have not been identified in adult humans. Second, stem cells in adults are often present in only minute quantities, are difficult to isolate and purify, and their numbers may decrease with age." 7

Newsroom.com reported that: Cells from adults "are available in far smaller quantities and could treat only a limited range of body parts, researchers contend. No adult stem cell has yet been found that could treat heart disease, for example, so scientists would rather cultivate embryos to harvest their stem cells." 8

The National Bioethics Advisory Commission stated: "In our judgment, the derivation of stem cells from embryos remaining following infertility treatments is justifiable only if no less morally problematic alternatives are available for advancing the research … The claim that there are alternatives to using stem cells derived from embryos is not, at the present time, supported scientifically. We recognize, however, that this is a matter that must be revisited continually as the demonstration of science advances." 9



Abortion -(even though not part of the main argument, truth is all turned to this in a heartbeat and was discussed in this thread)

Justice Blackmun (presiding judge of Roe vs. Wade) noted that there is a wide diversity of belief among different religions:

In ancient times, the Greek Stoics believed that human personhood did not begin until live birth.



At the present time, most Jews believe that full human personhood is attained only during delivery when the fetus is half delivered from its mother's body.

Justice Blackmun referred to the Aristotelian theory of "mediate animation," which was the predominant belief among Christians throughout the Middle Ages and the Renaissance. Aristotle (384-322 BCE) wrote in one of his biological treatises 4 that the male embryo develops a human soul -- and thus becomes a human person -- about 40 days after conception, whereas a female fetus acquires its soul at about 90 days. For much of its history, the Christian religion believed in this delayed-ensoulment principle and allowed abortions up to 90 days into pregnancy.



He noted that those Protestant denominations which had made formal statements on abortion generally regarded abortion to be "a matter for the conscience of the individual and her family." Since Roe v. Wade, Protestant denominations have been divided along liberal/conservative lines with the latter strongly opposing abortion access.

The Roman Catholic Church, since the 19th century, has consistently regarded personhood as beginning at conception.

Most reject the belief that the presence of a unique DNA code converts the egg into a human person. They note that a skin scraping of a child or adult contains a very large number of living, single cells; each has the same unique human DNA code as does the human from which it came. Scottish scientists removed a cell from the mammary tissue of a sheep, inject it into a sheep ovum whose DNA has been removed, and produce "Dolly," a cloned sheep who is genetically identical to her "parent." This same procedure has been replicated for many other mammals. A sample from a human skin scraping, or from a swab of the inside of the mouth, or a hair follicle contains the same type of human DNA information as does a zygote. They presumably should both be given the same status. Skeptics might argue that since we don't consider a hair follicle, etc. to be a human person, we should not look upon zygotes as persons either.

Some beliefs about when personhood

•A few hours after conception when the ovum splits into two cells

•About two weeks after conception, when a yellow streak develops in the embryo.

•3 weeks from conception when the embryo is about 2 mm long and has started to develop visible external body parts. It is no longer a blob of tissue.

•At about 4 weeks. when its heart starts to beat.

•6 weeks from conception, when primitive brain waves can be first sensed.

•2 months, when the fetus has lost its neck structures which resemble gill slits, and its tail. Its face resembles that of a primate.

•3 months the fetus begins to "look like" a baby.

•16 weeks: Fetal movement, often called quickening, is usually detectable by the 16th week of pregnancy.

•4 months when the fetus' face has developed to the point where one can tell one fetus from another.

•About 24 weeks, when the fetus becomes viable, (i.e. able to live outside the womb) with current technology.

•At 26 weeks or later, when the fetal brain's higher functions become operational.

Essentially all medical specialists, pro-choice advocates, religious liberals, etc. believe that:

Pregnancy begins when the pre-embryo embeds itself in the wall of the uterus, about twelve days after conception.

Human life becomes a human person later in pregnancy -- e.g. when the fetus attains sentience or at birth.

Most abortions are done in less than 13 weeks. http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_fact2.htm

Volitional abortion usually ends in the 22th week.

Finally a note of levity from one of the greatest comics: Bill Hicks

Boy, I've never seen an issue so divisive. It's like a civil war, isn't it? Even amongst my friends, who are all very intelligent; they're totally divided on abortion. It's unbelievable. Some of my friends, for instance, think these pro-life people are annoying idiots. Other of my friends think these pro-life people ... are evil fucks. How are we going to come to a consensus? You ought to hear the arguments around my house: 'They're annoying, they're idiots.' 'They're evil, they're fucks!' Brothers, sisters, come together! Can't we once just join hands and think of them as evil-annoying-idiot-fucks? I beseech you. But that's me ..."

"'We're pro-life.' Eww, you look it! You look like you're filled with life."

"'I was adopted by pro-life Christians when I was a kid. Does my penis make me a bad boy? That's what they told me!'{gunshot, gunshot}... Please, give me the Satan-worshipping family down the block ... the ones that have the good albums." Christians are pretty stupid.



"Here is my actual theory ... beyond the huge, hilarious jokes I have. Here's my real theory, though: If you're so pro-life and you're so pro-child, then adopt one that's already here, that's very unwanted and very alone and needs someone to take care of it to get it out of a horrible situation. Okay? People say, 'Why don't you do that?' And I say, 'Because I hate fucking kids and couldn't care less.' Couldn't give a fuck. Don't care at all about abortion. It's your choice, case closed, the end, bottom line. And by the way, that 3 month old kid in your belly is not a fucking human being, okay? It's a bunch of little congregated cells. You're not a human ... till you're in my phonebook."





[This message has been edited by hespeaks (edited 08-01-2006).]

lol are you kidding me? Potential? i seriously dont get that argument. And Karma is right, no sperm can by itself become a child and neither can an egg. However when they are combined in that thing called conception, which is what we are arguing here, then it IS A HUMAN lol what else is it going to come out as? a Chicken? honestly, it does not have the POTENTIAL to become a human being, it is a human being unless it is a duck... or maybe a dog, but seeing as how that isnt what it is, then it is a human. You were never a potential human being lol you ARE a human being and always were, therefore I respect you and honor you, because you are a human being. And if a germ is not more important then a human life than you have some different issues to deal with. I am sorry for calling your arguement pointless Afterimage, those words were a little strong, but still, your arguement is about potentiality, what exactly is potential? it has a chance at becomeing a human? no it will become a full grown adult, but it is always a human.

Hespeaks,

What is your view? I mean thanks for everyone elses but what is yours? Again, this foolishness about potential kills me, what else will it become? It IS a human, just because it is small at the moment means nothing, lol unless of course you were not a human being at first, then that would change everything ... but wait, you are a human ... that means you must have been a human when you were concieved ... hmm interesting, but again I would like to know YOUR view

quote:It IS a human, just because it is small at the moment means nothing, lol unless of course you were not a human being at first, then that would change everything ... but wait, you are a human ... that means you must have been a human when you were concieved

If you read my post and the links that I provided, I said that in embryonic stem cell research they use "pre-embryos" They consist of a number of identical, undifferentiated cells containing human DNA.

They have no brain, central nervous system, mouth, heart, lungs, or other internal organs. They have no organs to see, hear, touch, taste; they lack a body, head, arms, legs; they have no self awareness, memory, thought processes, or consciousness. Since these are the conditions of human beings, a pre-embryo is obviously not a human being no matter how many appeals to emotions you try to make to the contrary.

When a person is conceived he is a newly formed zygote. zygote is not a human person. Three things make us human persons: the ability to think, a moral sense, and our physical appearance. A zygote exhibits none of these. If you want to inhibit potential cures for chronic diseases than thats your problem. Science should attempt to do what your God apparently can't. End these appeals of emotion and use objective facts to prove your opinion.



N.B My views is what the present medical community states: Embryonic Stem Cells have the potential to cure many aliments in the present day; They are not human beings. In Abortion I side with Bill Hicks. Do the research and you'll know why. FYI, Brain activity commences 26 weeks or 6 months not 3 weeks.



[This message has been edited by hespeaks (edited 08-02-2006).]

Thanks for all the info Hespeaks, and again I am glad that you use scientific sources so I will do the same.

# Pathology of the Fetus and the Infant, 3d ed.

E.L. Potter and J.M. Craig, (Chicago: Year Book Medical Publishers, 1975), vii.

"Every time a sperm cell and ovum unite a new being is created which is alive and will continue to live unless its death is brought about by some specific condition."

Human Embryology, 3rd ed.

Bradley M. Patten, (New York: McGraw Hill, 1968), 43.

"It is the penetration of the ovum by a spermatozoan and resultant mingling of the nuclear material each brings to the union that constitues the culmination of the process of fertilization and marks the initiation of the life of a new individual."

Professor Micheline Matthews-Roth

Harvard University Medical School

"It is incorrect to say that biological data cannot be decisive...It is scientifically correct to say that an individual human life begins at conception."

Dr. Jerome LeJeune

Professor of Genetics, University of Descartes

"After fertilization has taken place a new human being has come into being. [It] is no longer a matter of taste or opinion...it is plain experimental evidence. Each individual has a very neat beginning, at conception."

By the third week of pregnancy (approximately 21 days after fertilization), the heart begins to beat, pumping blood throughout the body, and the brain begins dividing into three primary sections (forebrain, midbrain, and hindbrain). Now that seems human to me. Tell me if you think differently. AGAIN, there are OTHER places to get stem cells that dont kill people.

quote:By the third week of pregnancy (approximately 21 days after fertilization), the heart begins to beat, pumping blood throughout the body, and the brain begins dividing into three primary sections (forebrain, midbrain, and hindbrain). Now that seems human to me. Tell me if you think differently. AGAIN, there are OTHER places to get stem cells that dont kill people.

Incorrect. By the 3rd Week of Pregnancy “The embryo is now about 1/12" long, the size of a pencil point. It most closely resembles a worm - long and thin and with a segmented end. Before this time, the woman might have noticed that her menstrual period is late; she might suspect that she is pregnant and conduct a pregnancy test. If it is an unwanted pregnancy, she might have already arranged and carried through with an abortion.”

The Brain divides into its sections in “26 weeks or 6 months”.

As for your quotations…

The first two are outdated (about 40 years ago) and yes the zygote is a form of human life,its heart beats in the 3rd week and etc. However most modern medical authorities maintain that However, it is only a potential human person. Personhood develops at a later stage of pregnancy. When one possess the characteristics of humans as I described. If you read the post, Adult Stem Cells are limited, Embryonic Stem Cells have the potential up to 50 diseases and nobody gets killed because you murder “humans”, the zygote is not a human person.





[This message has been edited by hespeaks (edited 08-03-2006).]

What are you sources Hespeaks? You did not cite anything.

the only thing i have against stem cell research is that there is a high possibility that embryos will be purposely be made and killed by the people. which is wrong. but using naturally dead embryos is the same as organ donation to me

quote:Originally posted by Truth is all:

What are you sources Hespeaks? You did not cite anything.

You didn't either

http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_fact2.htm

http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_fetu.htm

http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_when5.htm

http://www.religioustolerance.org/res_stem1.htm

quote:Originally posted by Bruce4444:

the only thing i have against stem cell research is that there is a high possibility that embryos will be purposely be made and killed by the people. which is wrong. but using naturally dead embryos is the same as organ donation to me

that is abortion but i am the same way

quote:Originally posted by Truth is all:

What are you sources Hespeaks? You did not cite anything.

Neither did you.

there isn't one. our population is getting waaayyy too high. why not allow abortions? some people don't want children. why not allow the stem cells to be used in research? its not alive by my standards. it could lead the rest of us into a time of further extended living. i personally don't want that, but at the same time, i would like to see cures for some diseases.

quote:Originally posted by RogueEagle91:

there isn't one. our population is getting waaayyy too high. why not allow abortions? some people don't want children. why not allow the stem cells to be used in research? its not alive by my standards. it could lead the rest of us into a time of further extended living. i personally don't want that, but at the same time, i would like to see cures for some diseases.

I want abortions to be mandatory, because kids are fucking assholes.

[This message has been edited by jb_mcbean (edited 08-30-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by karma_sleeper:

I don't believe in abortion. To me, the embryo is a living organism with the infinite potential of human life just waiting to emerge. You argue that its cells could help in research against disease. This is true, but if allowed to grow and mature into a human being with thoughts, emotions, convictions of its own, think of how much more it could serve the world through human hands. A lifetime of work and participation in society versus a few weeks in a research laboratory aiding in studies and experiments that may end in failure.

I don't believe it's right to deny life for some so that others may benefit. The ends don't always justify the means.



I have a blank sheet of paper for sale at £10,000.

I know this may seem steep but I assure you, it's a potential masterpiece.

^^^Nice

Outlines a good point though. A zygote may be seen as human potential, but that’s just it - its only got the potential to be human, its not yet one.

We have to draw the line somewhere. I personally am always going to think that the lives of those already born matter more than those in utero. There is no debate over their status as a human being.

And if anyone has been paying attention to the news lately, they can now take stem cells from a embryo pre implantation without killing it. It seem a lot of extra crapping around if they don't have anyone to implant the embryo back into, but for the lucky few conceived via IVF, this could be a part of a new medical insurance policy if we can cultivate these cells and make them multiply.





[This message has been edited by flatplat (edited 08-31-2006).]

Hehehe...+1 for science. Now they can harvest embryonic stem cells without killing teh embryos. What's your excuse now, pro-lifers??? http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif)

Source. (http://tinyurl.com/ehkz6)

quote:Originally posted by Truth is all:

The Big Beef,

Honestly, abortion is saying that the mother has control over the childs life

[/B]

of course a mother has control over their babies life... geeze, if they drink excessively whilst pregnent the baby will die too, and the people that usually want to get abortions are people who most likely would drink excessively while pregnant... thus, the baby would very likely die if they hadnt been aborted anyway

quote:Originally posted by MRman:

of course a mother has control over their babies life... geeze, if they drink excessively whilst pregnent the baby will die too, and the people that usually want to get abortions are people who most likely would drink excessively while pregnant... thus, the baby would very likely die if they hadnt been aborted anyway

That's a piss-poor conclusion.