I think Jesus was real, but I really don't think he was the son of god. He was probably someone almsot like a pope or something and he wanted power.

Alright, and hear me out on this one. He probably did psycedellics! Think about it, LSA can grow off of rye or some certain kind of bread when it turns moldy. Jesus supposedly walked through the desert for 40 days without food or water. I think that is probably cause he was trippin! He probably ate the bread without knowing that it would affect him in that way so he started out into the desert. How many stories have you heard of people on LSD walking out into the desert and coming back all crazy saying they saw god and that they're a descendant from him?

And while you are tripping on a psycedellic you tend to walk alot and you don't even need food or water. He also probably said it was 40 days cause he probably thought he was actually there for 40 days when it easily could of been a week or so. He could just be some random guy that claims to be gods son.

What do you think?

I think your idea is foolish and full of wholes. But I will concede that the idea of wandering through the desert for that long, even without the aid of some substance, could by itself produce those effects with the help of heat and hunger.

I don't think Jesus was after power. If he was, wouldn't he have said "To follow me you must give me all your stuff, lolz" instead of "To follow me you must leave behind everything in service of the poor."? I suppose you could argue he wanted to make a name for himself, and that he certainly achieved.

i think jesus wasn't white i think he had a middleeastern look about him and i think he was a good guy

lol he did indeed have a middle eastern look about him seeing as how he spoke aramaic and was in the middle eastern area. As for tripping on drugs, that is highly unlikely. He had followers at this time and I am sure that they were quite worried about him or at least wondered about him. If he came out "claiming" that he had been there forty days when it had only been a couple then people would simply refute him. Seeing as how there were no refutations or arguements against scripture untill much later in hitory then I would guess that he was somewhat truthful in what he said. Yes there was a Jew here and there that was a little heated and vented about Christ, but those are small things that dont prove much. Jesus was indeed a good guy, in fact, He was God and Man and He died for our sins. I would consider that to be good. And since you dont think he is crazy, or a liar, then i would say he is telling the truth. And the truth He tells is that He is the son of God. He is the way and the turth and the life. Whoever believes in Him believes in the True Triune God.

[This message has been edited by Truth is all (edited 07-26-2006).]

I think Jesus was a political activist. The Sadducees were given the Temple and the Pharisees were of no help over the reign the Sadducees had since the time of the Old Testament over the Judaic religion. The Essenees were pretty much no where to be seen, being that they were isolationists and pretty much criticized (as seen in Jesus' Beatitudes and other witty remarks).

The time for reform was probably felt and the common people needed some kind of figure head to lead this political revolution. It was too much of the Sadducees for too long of a period of time. They had the money changing market monopolized since it is in Levitical Law that the temple was for that and the Sadducees were in charge of the Temple. And they had say over who is fit to be in the Temple and to what level they were fit to participate in OT rituals.

So along comes a kid who is not raised in the region, but in Egypt by scholars. He has an objective enough view point to see what is wrong with the region, besides the fact that it is under Roman Rule. He does nothing until his 20s and 30s because, he just doesn't have the ideas for it. Then when he is in his 20-30s, he meets his cousin John. A man who said to have spent a good portion of his life in the wilderness.

A man, essentric to common tradition, practices Baptism like the Essenees. This man is essentric himself and has ideas. After the meeting between the two and the Baptism of Jesus, you then see Jesus starting to get political; such as calling the money changers on their monopoly they've got going within the Temple.

That's when Jesus decides to get really political and fulfill the prophecy of his religion. Instead of entering Jerusalem by the main gate like everyone else, he decides to enter the gate closest to Ben-Hinnom Valley on a donkey as the prophecy says. He preaches contradictory to what his religion says in spite of what the mainstream Judaic religions say his religion says.

He gets killed and become a matyr. You pretty much know how it gets to that point. I feel he was a real man. Jesus, probably wasnt his name since the translation over from Greek/German/Aramaic/Hebrew/English somehow got his name wrong. And, as I said, he did what he did because he was objective enough to see that reform was needed. Not just one lineage of people in charge of the religion because the OT says so. He saw that religion belonged to all and was in charge by none.

Too bad Paul had to go fuck up his message and create Christianity. http://www.totse.com/bbs/mad.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/mad.gif)

I dont believe Jesus ever touched a drug in his life.

quote:full of wholes



lolz

I'm too kool for skool.

Some guy who failed god school who has holes in his hands which prevent him from

eating skittles and m&ms

quote:Originally posted by The_Big_Beef:

Some guy who failed god school who has holes in his hands which prevent him from

eating skittles and m&ms

some doughnut holes ought to fill that right up

I believe in jesus as son of God. I won't preach it through this thread cause this is what I think of him as a guy. I think he was damn awesome son of God or not, helping the poor, fighting the good fight against the rich and powerful elitist.

Died a hero and has had his message spread. He certainly inspires me to try best in my life. Christianity and ecspecially the bible is hard to follow with the different groups, so i follow his messages and parables alone basically cause they are bascially all derived from love.

He could have took drugs as natural herbs n such wasn't exactly illegal in his time. Who knows who cares. I beleive he had a middle eastern look and cringe when pepped up christians illogically fight for their superficial...racial perceptions of him -_-!

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

I dont believe Jesus ever touched a drug in his life.

We know he drank wine, as for what I think of jesus, I think he was an amazing philosopher.

His followers on the otherhand are typically close minded, unaccepting, anable to admit they might be wrong, and many are corrupt.

Lets face it, the vast majority of religous people (99%, maybe more) are not like jesus.

If they were we would have no christian soldiers (thou shall not kill) , no christian scientists (thou shall not bear false witness) , and the list could go on.

As for looks, who cares what he looks like, does it matter what he looks like? I don't think peoples faith should be dependant on what someone looks like.

Jesus, if a real person, was a great person, and philosopher. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible)

P.S. The link is to the "Jefferson bible" (or just the information about it on wikipedia) which has all the "super natural" aspects of the new testament removed and is soley the teachings of jesus. Interesting read for any one who is into philosophy, or anyone who is religous.

I'm not interested in what he looked like. But a lot of people actually used psycedellics back then. Especially the Egyptians. I think he just went crazy off of them.

I think it is likely he existed. Beyond that and the general area in which he may have lived its pretty much all guesswork to me.

He was a Prophet of Allah, not a Son. That idea is just ridiculous. If he had no father, then why is he referred to as Son of God?

quote:Originally posted by Loc Dogg:

He was a Prophet of Allah, not a Son. That idea is just ridiculous. If he had no father, then why is he referred to as Son of God?

Because after having a psycedellic experience he thought he was. It has happend to many people before. Some kid in my town actually thought he was god and started wearing togas and sandals everywhere.

quote:Originally posted by Aft3r ImaGe:

We know he drank wine.

I don't think we actually know anything for sure. I don't believe the New Testament in factual or true or really relates the truth about Jesus, in fact I believe it was written by people who had never even met him.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

I believe it was written by people who had never even met him.

That's a pretty diverse belief, seeing the new testament is meant to be written by matthew, mark, luke and john...his very followers.

What does the Quran actually say about Jesus? Sorry if this is going a bit off topic but be nice to see another perspective than that of the bible.

As a matter of fact, it is highly unlikely that any of the gospels were actually written by one of the disciples. At the time, it was a common practice to assume the name of a more important person when writing, particularly on religion. This is why we see things like the Gospel according to Judas emerging decades or centuries after the actual Judas' death. The rest of the New Testament is composed almost entirely of letters by Paul, a Greek Jew that never met Jesus and never claimed to.

As for how Jesus looked, obviously he'd look middle eastern, he was a Jew. There's no reason at all to believe that he'd have any other than Semetic features.

Jesus, historically, was a religious reformer. He had issues with the religious authority of his time. In this he was not, and I stress, NOT unique or even uncommon. The only reason we've suffered 2,000 years of Christianity is that his followers fled in the direction of Rome after Judea was sacked. There was nothing special about his life or death. We know this, and yet so many still persist in attributing divine meaning for no reason other than because those before them have done so.

The Muslims in this thread have already basically summed up what Islam teaches about Jesus. That he was a prophet of God, but still a man. There are some stories in there about miracles he performed; one that isn't in most Bibles is the story of how he spoke from his cradle to defend his mother from accusations of premarital sex. However, most Muslims would say that the idea of someone being the Son of God is a little silly, because if God wanted something to be, He wouldn't knock up some woman, He'd just say "Be" and it would. I'm not a Muslim, so someone who knows more than me can feel free to jump in, but this is the impression I've gotten.

Yeh I done a lil wiki research on the matter. Thanks Kallisti.

Hm, throughout teachings ive been given on Jesus. Time and time again it is made clear that Jesus was simply a man. Son of God...but still a simple man. Maybe this leaves it open for any man to aspire to be like Jesus without any excuse.

quote:Originally posted by Hempo man:

Yeh I done a lil wiki research on the matter. Thanks Kallisti.

Hm, throughout teachings ive been given on Jesus. Time and time again it is made clear that Jesus was simply a man. Son of God...but still a simple man. Maybe this leaves it open for any man to aspire to be like Jesus without any excuse.

Except for the fact that we're men, who are able to sin, whereas Jesus wasn't. He could be tempted, yes, but being imbued with the spirit of God (which I'm still trying to find an answer to..something about higher consciousnesses and maybe implanting.. i dunno yet), he literally could not sin.

I think Jesus was an incredible man and we'd be better off if there were more people like him. I don't think he's the son of Jehovah. I just think he was a very wise, very kind man.

What was the point for the spirit to lead Jesus out into the desert to be tempted if he could not sin even if he wanted? I always held to the belief that Jesus had his free will like everyone else, he could be tempted and he could sin. He was just able to resist.

quote:Originally posted by Kallisti:

Jesus, historically, was a religious reformer. He had issues with the religious authority of his time.

Wow, someone actually sees it like I see it.

quote:Originally posted by Loc Dogg:

He was a Prophet of Allah, not a Son. That idea is just ridiculous. If he had no father, then why is he referred to as Son of God?

Jesus also referred to himself as the son of man, son of god and son of man, how can that be? When the jews accused him of blasphemy for claiming to be the son of god, Jesus defence was that their own law(Psalms) said "You are gods". Think about that, he could not legitimately make that claim to an offence that for the jews was a stoning to death crime, and have them accept it, if he was making a claim specific only to himself! Time and again he teaches god was not only his father, but all of us as well, we are all the children/sons of god, and thus gods as well as men. Sons of men and of god.

The koran teaches this: "God/Allah created the sexes, the male and the female, from a drop of ejaculated semen..."(The Star 53:43) Bizarre! But if one is to accept this on face value, humanity is directly descended from god(Law of Biogenesis), therefore -- we are the children of god and it is logical then for Jesus to claim to be the son of god and the son of man.

Namaste http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by redzed:

Jesus also referred to himself as the son of man, son of god and son of man, how can that be? When the jews accused him of blasphemy for claiming to be the son of god, Jesus defence was that their own law(Psalms) said "You are gods". Think about that, he could not legitimately make that claim to an offence that for the jews was a stoning to death crime, and have them accept it, if he was making a claim specific only to himself! Time and again he teaches god was not only his father, but all of us as well, we are all the children/sons of god, and thus gods as well as men. Sons of men and of god.

The koran teaches this: "God/Allah created the sexes, the male and the female, from a drop of ejaculated semen..."(The Star 53:43) Bizarre! But if one is to accept this on face value, humanity is directly descended from god(Law of Biogenesis), therefore -- we are the children of god and it is logical then for Jesus to claim to be the son of god and the son of man.

Namaste http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)



"That they ascribe a son (or offspring or children) to the Most Gracious (Allah). But it is not suitable for the Most Gracious (Allah) that He should beget a son (or offspring or children). There is none in the heavens and the earth but comes unto the Most Gracious (Allah) as a slave." [Maryam 19:88-93]

"Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son." KORAN: Surah 4.171

Fail. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by d1rty piss stool:

What do you think o Jesus?

He's not the saviour, he's a very naughty boy.

quote:Originally posted by redzed:

Jesus also referred to himself as the son of man, son of god and son of man, how can that be? When the jews accused him of blasphemy for claiming to be the son of god, Jesus defence was that their own law(Psalms) said "You are gods". Think about that, he could not legitimately make that claim to an offence that for the jews was a stoning to death crime, and have them accept it, if he was making a claim specific only to himself! Time and again he teaches god was not only his father, but all of us as well, we are all the children/sons of god, and thus gods as well as men. Sons of men and of god.

The koran teaches this: "God/Allah created the sexes, the male and the female, from a drop of ejaculated semen..."(The Star 53:43) Bizarre! But if one is to accept this on face value, humanity is directly descended from god(Law of Biogenesis), therefore -- we are the children of god and it is logical then for Jesus to claim to be the son of god and the son of man.

Namaste http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Rather people claimed that Jesus claimed that he was the son of God, son of Man. In Greek, the language in which Paul often preached in as well. the Word and concept of son and servant is the same: Pais. Jesus was the Servant of God, the Servant of Man, performing the service of giving the message of God and worship of God, to mankind.

The Qur'an says Jesus (Isa) was born of a virgin, Marium, who was very good and pious and was raised by prophets herself, even when she was young miracles were performed before her eyes. She was chosen to have a child, Isa, who would give the message of God to the B'nei Israel who were straying from the path after corrupting and changing the Taurath of Musa. So a messenger appeared to Marium and gave her the message, she wondered how and the answer came that for God it is simply "Be" and it is (Kuun Fiya Kuun). So she got pregnant, and just how Adam was created from scratch or the available materials, Jesus was manifested in her womb and developed and she gave birth. As a baby to the shock of people, with the help of being "posessed" (or being spoken through) by a Messenger (Angel) Isa was able to speak and give the message. He grew up and preached and finally people got irritated and tried to have him killed but he prayed and was able to escape, instead they killed either someone they thought was Jesus or an illusion but they were all fooled.

So the Muslim story is different from the Christian story on some basic points:

Jesus is not the son of God but the son of Mary, created by God, a servant of God.

Jesus never claimed to be the son of God or God nor told people to worship him, but told people to worship the one God, he was a Muslim like all the other prophets: Muslim means one who has submitted to God.

Jesus was never tortured or died on the cross but completely avoided it by praying and being saved from the incident.

The Qur'an doesn't mention Rome at all, and makes it seem like the timeline is much more close to the time of Moses than Rome, the time of Moses in the Qur'an is written about vaguely and doesnt definately imply Egypt but "Civilization" (Misr). The story of Moses is found related and connected to the pre egypt king of Akkadia, Sargon, and is found in Babylonian mythology too as a much more ancient story.

I believe Moses, Jesus and most of the prophets were in ancient times in Africa and ancient civilizations and communities so that the Myths about them were able to develop and can be found refered to as ancient in even Babylon. I don't accept the Jewish or Christian timeline of the world or of these people/events. I don't believe Jesus was a Jew but I believe he was African in descent and how he looked, that the ancient original tribe of Jews, the B'nei Israel were in Africa. Remnants of them can still be found in North and East Africa with the same old traditions. I believe the ancient B'nei Israel are distinct from the Middle Eastern and Modern Yahudi (Jew).

quote:Originally posted by redzed:

Jesus also referred to himself as the son of man, son of god and son of man, how can that be? When the jews accused him of blasphemy for claiming to be the son of god, Jesus defence was that their own law(Psalms) said "You are gods". Think about that, he could not legitimately make that claim to an offence that for the jews was a stoning to death crime, and have them accept it, if he was making a claim specific only to himself! Time and again he teaches god was not only his father, but all of us as well, we are all the children/sons of god, and thus gods as well as men. Sons of men and of god.

The koran teaches this: "God/Allah created the sexes, the male and the female, from a drop of ejaculated semen..."(The Star 53:43) Bizarre! But if one is to accept this on face value, humanity is directly descended from god(Law of Biogenesis), therefore -- we are the children of god and it is logical then for Jesus to claim to be the son of god and the son of man.

Namaste http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

005.017

In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary. Say: "Who then hath the least power against Allah, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every - one that is on the earth? For to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things."

005.018

The Jews and the Christians say: "We are sons of God, and his beloved." Say: "Why then doth He punish you for your sins? Nay, ye are but men,- of the men he hath created: He forgiveth whom He pleaseth, and He punisheth whom He pleaseth: and to God belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between: and unto Him is the final goal (of all)"

005.019

O People of the Book! Now hath come unto you, making (things) clear unto you, Our Messenger, after the break in (the series of) our messengers, lest ye should say: "There came unto us no bringer of glad tidings and no warner (from evil)": But now hath come unto you a bringer of glad tidings and a warner (from evil). And Allah hath power over all things.



005.072

They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.

005.073

They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.

005.074

Why turn they not to Allah, and seek His forgiveness? For Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

005.075

Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!

A man at a bus stop asked me what I thought of Jesus the other day.

He then went on to ask me why, if Jesus was just another "prophet" and Christianity was just another religion, the "Word of Jesus" (as he called it) is so widely accepted.

And he actually, genuinely, didn't know that Christianity was adopted by the Roman Empire.

Jx

quote:Originally posted by Jessic:

A man at a bus stop asked me what I thought of Jesus the other day.

He then went on to ask me why, if Jesus was just another "prophet" and Christianity was just another religion, the "Word of Jesus" (as he called it) is so widely accepted.

And he actually, genuinely, didn't know that Christianity was adopted by the Roman Empire.

Jx

Surprise you?

Ok, welll I am arguing the historicity of Christ on another forum but I guess I can give a little bit to this one. Jesus Christ was a real historical figure. Whether you take the gospels, the early church fathers writings or pauls writings, which are not gnostic. His claim to be son of God and son of man are simple enough. He was God and man. Now son of man is the reference to his Godhood as seen in Ezekiel and Daniel, Son of God is showing that he is a man. We are all sons of God, adopted by Christ through his death and ressurection. We are not all gods, though many would like to hold to that belief.

Just because he claims to be the son of god doesn’t make it so. And the claims of his miracles and resurrection easily could be lies. Also, those writings were not written by the apostles, they were written by a group of people using the apostles names years and years after the birth and death of Jesus H. Christ.

I think that before you can decide whether or not he was the Son of God, you have to have a clear definition of what God is. It's kind of a vague concept.

I think when most people think of God, they think of the universe, cause and effect, and morality combined and personified so that it has emotions like love.



[This message has been edited by smallpox champion (edited 07-31-2006).]

Overman,

Mathew and Mark were indeed the true authors. I have plenty of evidence for that, but what is your evidence against since you have made the statement that rejects their authenticity. And if indeed they are the authors then they were eye witnesses.

quote:Originally posted by Truth is all:

We are all sons of God, adopted by Christ through his death and ressurection. We are not all gods, though many would like to hold to that belief.

005.018

The Jews and Christians say: We are sons of God and His loved ones. Say: Why then does He punish you for your sins? Nay, you are but men from among those whom He has created. He forgiveth whom He will, and punishes whom He will. God's is the Dominion of the Universe and the earth and all that is between them, and unto Him is the journeying.

I am a bit confused about the son of god thing from the Christian perspective. How can he be more a father to Christ than the rest of us? It is not as if he raised him or he gave half his DNA.

quote:Originally posted by Boblong:

I am a bit confused about the son of god thing from the Christian perspective. How can he be more a father to Christ than the rest of us? It is not as if he raised him or he gave half his DNA.

EXACTLY! Jesus wasn't a Son of God, he was merely a man, a prophet.

quote:Originally posted by Loc Dogg:

EXACTLY! Jesus wasn't a Son of God, he was merely a man, a prophet.

But from the Christian perspective how could he possibly be the son of god?

quote:Originally posted by Boblong:

But from the Christian perspective how could he possibly be the son of god?

I dunno, Christianity is pretty fucked. They have like, a million different versions of the bible. Why can't they just have one?

quote:Originally posted by Loc Dogg:

I dunno, Christianity is pretty fucked. They have like, a million different versions of the bible. Why can't they just have one?

For the same reason the US doesn't have a simpler tax code.

quote:Originally posted by Boblong:

But from the Christian perspective how could he possibly be the son of god?

Some groups claim he is the son of God because he was without sin thus making him a God or God, or one with God.

Others simply say "cause the bible sez so"

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

Some groups claim he is the son of God because he was without sin thus making him a God or God, or one with God.

Others simply say "cause the bible sez so"



So there is no attribute other than his lack of sin that supposedly makes him the son of god?

[This message has been edited by Boblong (edited 08-04-2006).]

He IS God haha that is what makes Him the Son of God born of the virgin Mary. In Christ we are all sons of God. But we were made sons of God because we have a substitute, thus we put on Christ and become sons of God. And all biblical interpretations have the same message, they are addressed to different audiences.

[This message has been edited by Truth is all (edited 08-04-2006).]

What do I think of Jesus as a person? As in, my opinion of him?

I think it's one of the few cases where the Son's more mature than the Father. After all, when does Jesus throw a hissy fit and destroy a town or commit genocide?

quote:Originally posted by Squakey:

After all, when does Jesus throw a hissy fit?

When he came into the Temple and started flipping over the money changers' tables.

quote:Originally posted by Overman:

Also, those writings were not written by the apostles, they were written by a group of people using the apostles names years and years after the birth and death of Jesus H. Christ.

What does the H. stand for? *waves "I am ignorant" flag*

quote:Originally posted by postdiluvium:

When he came into the Temple and started flipping over the money changers' tables.

Ah, I see. Thankyou for the correction. Did anyone die?

I think Jesus is good at mowing my lawn.

I think jesus broke his moms cherry if the story of being born from a virgin is true.