First of all, this is just for atheists, and I need about 40 of them to test this out, but we could use less.

Now I don't know how often you guys hear this, but it gets brought up to me a lot that the bible was written by 40 different people over a long period of time. This, and the fact that it agrees with itself, is supposed to prove that the bible must be the word of God.

I disagree for several reasons. First of all, it does contradict itself, not only logically on the surface, but also on fundamental levels of virtue. God changes a lot during the bible, and has various contradictory characteristics, sometimes in direct opposites.

But beyond that, and most importantly for this thread, writing a book with 40 people isn't difficult at all. It's basically like a chain story or something.

Now, I say not only is it easy to write a consistent book with 40 authors, but that the bible's writers did a shitty job.

In 'The God Experiment,' a pro-christianity book, the author even admits that each gospel exaggerates from the previous one in order. The best example is the tomb; the first gospel said a man apppeared, the second gospel said it was two men, the third gospel said it was an angel, and the next gospel said it was two angels (or something to that effect, I don't remember the specifics).

Anyway, the experiment is this:

I want to gather 40 intelligent, literate atheists. We will then each, in succession, write a new chapter/book in the story. The goal is to make things logical and consistent. There will be no talking about it to each other, all you have to write off of is all the other chapters/books so far. Eventually the conclusion will be a nice, long, consistent religious book written by 40 different people (anoymously). Best of all, this will be more consistent and better then the bible.

This isn't going to make any reference to christianity, though. This isn't the flying spaghetti monster thing, and it's not a parody. It's simply proof that the bible is not a very impressive book, and in no way divinely inspired.

Feel free to use all kinds of prophecy and to speak symbolically. We don't want this to be silly stupid, but I think it should show that it is easy to fulfill prophecy when writing stories in this way.

Anyway, I want to know who's interested so speak up. I have a basic idea for the first chapter/book but if you have a different idea tell me.

I will post the first chapter/book once we get enough people.

One minor flaw that could work in your favor.

Remember when it comes to the bible there were actually hundreds of authors. Then a group got together and picked what they felt were the best books to make up the bible. Throwing out ones that didn't match their beliefs.

Although it would make for a complicated experiment, what you really need is 100 or more authors, then you need to make a council and agree what the council wants in its book, then pick those that match those beliefs.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Beta69:

One minor flaw that could work in your favor.

Remember when it comes to the bible there were actually hundreds of authors. Then a group got together and picked what they felt were the best books to make up the bible. Throwing out ones that didn't match their beliefs.

Although it would make for a complicated experiment, what you really need is 100 or more authors, then you need to make a council and agree what the council wants in its book, then pick those that match those beliefs.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)



That's a good idea. Are you willing to help?

although i am a buddhist i am willing to help.

quote:Originally posted by Graemy:

although i am a buddhist i am willing to help.

Um, alright, but just so you know, "I" is a proper noun and should be capitalized. So if you were, say, attempting to author a book that would change millions of lives and be intensely studied, you should do that.

i will use correct grammar, capitalization, and mechanics. i just don't capitalize much when typing on the internet, bad habit of mine.

I'm currently working full time and taking classes full time, so I have very little free time. However, all that changes after Thursday, August 3rd. So, at that point in time, I'd be willing to author a ~5-10 page book.

I think we should do a bit more research on the history of the Bible first. Were all the books in the Old Testament written chronologically? Or were they written by different authors in different places, then put together? Our experiment should try to model the evolution of the Bible as closely as possible.

Great idea, BTW.

I doubt there are 40 intelligent atheists on totse. As such, sometime this week I'll try to recruit some of my friends.

The more I think about this, the more I realize that it isn't hard at all.

We start out with a creation story. So long as it's self consistent, and not disprovable, it's fair game. For the rest of the document, we can have parables, history (I don't see why a few chapters on WWII isn't a bad idea), and we obviously need a bit of info on God and law.

We should see how exactly the Bible was written. For example, if we assume that one person wrote the entire Pentateuch (as Christians claim), then we have one person write 5 books. Then if 12 books were then written concurrently, based off of the first 5 books, we distribute copies of the first 5 books to 12 authors, who then each write one book. We continue the process until our entire document is complete.

We could have a messiah, too. Someone could write a number of letters about this messiah, and then they could be emailed to 20 people, who then write "gospels" about this messiah. Then we could have a Council of Nicea (Council of Totse?) in which we choose just four of these Gospels to be in the final document.

We need some kind of screening process, though. I'd hate to see a Christian intentionally ruin this brilliant idea.

This is has made my day! You, IanBoyd3, are a genius.

yeah, i'm in. don't worry about gramar, capitalizations, and punctuation. i have the ability to do that when writing seriously.

Do we have any native speakers of a foreign language here? Translation errors are great!

Why do they have to be atheists?

quote:Originally posted by IanBoyd3:

So if you were, say, attempting to author a book that would change millions of lives and be intensely studied, you should do that.

I enjoy creative writing projects and would be interested in participating if this got off the ground.

However - the point is the underlying experiment, not to change millions of lives ... right? I just couldn't sleep nights knowing I somehow inadvertently affected someone's livelihood that dramatically.

I am most definately in. Although after next week I am away for 2 weeks, however after/before that I am completely free.

This sounds like an interesting project.

Would you like to collect email addresses or something similiar.

quote:Originally posted by AngryFemme:

I enjoy creative writing projects and would be interested in participating if this got off the ground.

However - the point is the underlying experiment, not to change millions of lives ... right? I just couldn't sleep nights knowing I somehow inadvertently affected someone's livelihood that dramatically.



Why not on MSN?

quote:Originally posted by jsaxton14:

The more I think about this, the more I realize that it isn't hard at all.

We start out with a creation story. So long as it's self consistent, and not disprovable, it's fair game. For the rest of the document, we can have parables, history (I don't see why a few chapters on WWII isn't a bad idea), and we obviously need a bit of info on God and law.

We should see how exactly the Bible was written. For example, if we assume that one person wrote the entire Pentateuch (as Christians claim), then we have one person write 5 books. Then if 12 books were then written concurrently, based off of the first 5 books, we distribute copies of the first 5 books to 12 authors, who then each write one book. We continue the process until our entire document is complete.

We could have a messiah, too. Someone could write a number of letters about this messiah, and then they could be emailed to 20 people, who then write "gospels" about this messiah. Then we could have a Council of Nicea (Council of Totse?) in which we choose just four of these Gospels to be in the final document.

We need some kind of screening process, though. I'd hate to see a Christian intentionally ruin this brilliant idea.

This is has made my day! You, IanBoyd3, are a genius.

Thank you. Those are some good ideas. I have a creation story in mind right now. It explains a few things we don't have answers for and it can't be disproved. I need a few more ideas on how to do it though, pm me if you have any thoughts.

quote:Originally posted by Graemy:

i will use correct grammar, capitalization, and mechanics. i just don't capitalize much when typing on the internet, bad habit of mine.

Ok that's cool.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

Why do they have to be atheists?

Ok, you can help if you want.

I'll rephrase; non-religious, or specifically, non-christian. This doesn't pertain to Islam because I mean heck, they only have Mohammed so this doesn't prove anything in their case.

quote:Originally posted by AngryFemme:

I enjoy creative writing projects and would be interested in participating if this got off the ground.

However - the point is the underlying experiment, not to change millions of lives ... right? I just couldn't sleep nights knowing I somehow inadvertently affected someone's livelihood that dramatically.



Yes, I just said that as a joke about the bible and if the bible writers had done a sloppy job not knowing that the modern world would worship it and turn to it for every problem.

Kinda like the scientology phenomena, eh?

http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

I am literate - a veritable grammar Nazi! - and intelligent (and atheistic); I'd be willing to help. However, I'm also very lazy, so... don't count on me. http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif) We should perhaps create a little free of our own so that we can all discuss this and get updates and remain in contact and so forth. Or something. MSN? E-mail?

quote:Originally posted by gremlin hunter:

I am most definately in. Although after next week I am away for 2 weeks, however after/before that I am completely free.

This sounds like an interesting project.

Would you like to collect email addresses or something similiar.

Here's my current plan:

-Gather the people

-Figure out what kind of story we want to write (e.g., parody certain flaws of religion or make a religion that was more moral and better)

-Research how the bible was written like jsaxton said (one person wrote the first 5 books and so on)

-Collect email addresses

-Assign books

-Start writing in order with each author emailing his stories to the next one, coordinated so every writer has access to the same books the bible writers would've

-Collect AIM/MSN screen names

-Go into a large chatroom and have a "Council of Totse" to replicate the Council of Nicea where we look through the stories and pick out only the best.

It may be that some books turn out horribly or are inconsistent, but that's alright because they weren't divinely inspired, hence we are free to throw them out (like the council of nicea).

The strange thing is that christians will claim the books were divinely inspired. The problem is that most of them were bad and inconsistent and were thrown out by the council of nicea. Well were they divinely inspired to keep the right ones? So now the story is that God partially divinely inspired the writers, and then made up for it by divinely inspiring another group of people to pick the right ones.

Hmm...seems pretty superfluous...kind of like the human body.

They both exhibit a lot of the same flaws and inefficiencies.

Maybe because they are just products of...

...unintelligent design?

i like the name Coucil of Totse

[This message has been edited by Graemy (edited 07-29-2006).]

I would like to join this project. Although I'm not a native English speaker, I doubt that I will make more mistakes than a few minor spelling errors. Is that okay? I want to join, this sounds really intresting.

quote:Originally posted by Dre Crabbe:

I would like to join this project. Although I'm not a native English speaker, I doubt that I will make more mistakes than a few minor spelling errors. Is that okay? I want to join, this sounds really intresting.

Yes, your english sounds fine, and since you speak another language you can translate things back and forth or something. What language do you speak?

What I would like is to do a long chain, like playing telephone between members. Like, the english message is translated into spanish and then someone else translates it back to english which is then translated by someone else to german etc etc...

quote:Originally posted by IanBoyd3:

What I would like is to do a long chain, like playing telephone between members. Like, the english message is translated into spanish and then someone else translates it back to english which is then translated by someone else to german etc etc...

It would best if the people who translate were not the authors, because they'd know what they meant and eliminate those inadvertant errors important to our purpose.

I'll write the tentacle monster sex scenes and throw in a crystal meth recipe.

OK, we need to invent a person who is the starter of the religion who passes on arcane knowledge and is ridiculed by the ‘heathens’ for people to admire. Christianity has Jesus, Muslims have Mohammed, Buddhists have Buddha, Zoroastrians have Zarathustra, etc. etc.

quote:Originally posted by Overman:

OK, we need to invent a person who is the starter of the religion who passes on arcane knowledge and is ridiculed by the ‘heathens’ for people to admire. Christianity has Jesus, Muslims have Mohammed, Buddhists have Buddha, Zoroastrians have Zarathustra, etc. etc.

Also, we need some sort of afterlife reward system; like heaven and hell or reincarnation.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by IanBoyd3:

...but it gets brought up to me a lot that the bible was written by 40 different people over a long period of time. This, and the fact that it agrees with itself, is supposed to prove that the bible must be the word of God.

That was one weird post...

your test is pointless.

Jesus Christ, according to script, before death had apostles and apointed to the church the first pope:

http:// en.wikiped ia.org/wik i/Pope#Early_history (http: //en.wikip edia.org/w iki/Pope#E arly_histo ry)

The Catholic Church is based strongly on the papal sanction and teaching.



[This message has been edited by Lou Reed (edited 07-30-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by IanBoyd3:

Yes, your english sounds fine, and since you speak another language you can translate things back and forth or something. What language do you speak?

What I would like is to do a long chain, like playing telephone between members. Like, the english message is translated into spanish and then someone else translates it back to english which is then translated by someone else to german etc etc...

Thanks. Well, I speak Dutch, although with some help from my dictionary I could translate texts into French as well. Also, I think it is best if we give you our emails, because if you post yours a lot of people will invite themselves. Your call, though. Here's mine anyway, driescrabbe@hotmail.com , feel free to add me to msn if you have it.

quote:Originally posted by Lou Reed:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by IanBoyd3:

...but it gets brought up to me a lot that the bible was written by 40 different people over a long period of time. This, and the fact that it agrees with itself, is supposed to prove that the bible must be the word of God.

That was one weird post...

your test is pointless.

Jesus Christ, according to script, before death had apostles and apointed to the church the first pope:

http:// en.wikiped ia.org/wik i/Pope#Early_history (http: //en.wikip edia.org/w iki/Pope#E arly_histo ry)

The Catholic Church is based strongly on the papal sanction and teaching.



we aren't testing the teachings we are testing the bible.

lol sorry for intruding, I know that this is an all athiest thing. I would just like to know when this is finished. So that I can pick apart every aparent flaw or what seems to be to me at least lol, since that I what you do to the Bible. Again, do not think that they just got a whole bunch of books together that said gospel or epistle on them and picked some out that sounded cool. The books in the new testament were already the books in use by the early church. They simply made it final when they had the council. O and the angel thing? Honestly do a little research or at least try to find your own reasoning. The guy who wrote the book ... dont know him, but there are plenty of literary techniques that can explain the angels and are more plausible than... "o wait the whole bible is false" Sorry, but where there is persecution someone has to stand up for the other side.

quote:Originally posted by Overman:

Also, we need some sort of afterlife reward system; like heaven and hell or reincarnation.

if we have a reward system, my vote goes for those deemed as "pure" or whatever get to shape their own shape of the vast abyss that is the afterlife. those that are "impure" either float around the vast nothingness, or have to spend another lifetime on the bottom rung of someone else's world.

I'm not an atheist, but I'd love to join in. I don't subscribe to any written or revealed knowledge as it is, so it'd be fun to write some.

I would like to enter in this experiment. Here is generally How the Bible was written.

Genesis-2 Kings (The Law, The Histories)

•documentary hypothesis: that the Five Books of Moses (the Torah) and the Histories represent a combination of documents from different sources rather than a single text authored by one individual. The hypothesis proposes that a redactor (referred to as R) composed the Torah by combining four earlier source texts (J, E, P and D), specifically. http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_tora1.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Documentary_Hypothesis

Most of the remainder of the Old Testament is seen as historically reliable, since it merely presents an uncontroversial account of the sayings of various people, their poetry, and an undramatic, and largely unsupernatural, account of the time of Ezra and Nehemiah.

As for the New Testament, some critics have maintained that Christianity isn't even founded on an historical figure whatsoever, but rather on a mythical creation. And the undisputed Pauline epistles lean toward a Gnostic philosophy. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism_and_the_New_Testament) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus-Myth

How they were compiled and canonized...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banned_from_the_Bible

N.B The hero Daniel, who was supposed to have been born circa 620 BCE, is probably a mythical character. The book of Daniel was actually written circa 164 BCE, almost half a millennium later

quote:Originally posted by Truth is all:

lol sorry for intruding, I know that this is an all athiest thing. I would just like to know when this is finished. So that I can pick apart every aparent flaw or what seems to be to me at least lol, since that I what you do to the Bible. Again, do not think that they just got a whole bunch of books together that said gospel or epistle on them and picked some out that sounded cool. The books in the new testament were already the books in use by the early church. They simply made it final when they had the council. O and the angel thing? Honestly do a little research or at least try to find your own reasoning. The guy who wrote the book ... dont know him, but there are plenty of literary techniques that can explain the angels and are more plausible than... "o wait the whole bible is false" Sorry, but where there is persecution someone has to stand up for the other side.

It's not persecution, it's an experiment. Don't be so sensitive.

We are experimenting to see whether the writing of the gospel is so hard that it had to be divinely inspired, or if it really wasn't even a good job at all, and we can do better.

Yes, you can attempt to pick it apart if you like. Even if it were to have 10 logical fallacies, it would be far less then the bible. Even more to the point, I'm hoping it will be more coherent, moral, good, and honest then current religions.

quote:Originally posted by Overman:

OK, we need to invent a person who is the starter of the religion who passes on arcane knowledge and is ridiculed by the ‘heathens’ for people to admire. Christianity has Jesus, Muslims have Mohammed, Buddhists have Buddha, Zoroastrians have Zarathustra, etc. etc.

Well my current idea was to have the beginning of life caused by aliens, possibly from another parallel universe or dimension from string theory. They started bacterial life in order for it to evolve to higher beings, and they did this because they wanted company and new kinds of beings to experience life. They have given us some help through the ages and some guidance, but other then that allow us to develop on our own. They are waiting for us to develop, evolve, mature, and advance to the point where we could join our alien creators as companions, allies and friends. To get there, we have to advance in several ways - Societally, getting past racism and prejudice, empathy and sympathy to help the poor, do good and become a wholly moral society; Technologically, by means of self-improvement on the mind, nanotech, robotics, but mostly mind enhancement; and finally, Interconnectivity; It started with signals, then advanced swiftly from speech to language to writing to paper to telephones to the internet to voice chat, and eventually it will advance to the mind where at some point we will be able to communicate smoothly with our creators.

Basically, it explains some holes, gives us meaning to advance through science, gives us hope for better life with the aliens, and companionship, and also says that we have to advance on the ladder of ethics and morality to finally earn the right to live with our creators, our ancestors, and together go on to do great things, and maybe to ultimately conquer death and create our own perfect infinite paradises.

If you have better ideas, let me know. I'm considering having different geniuses of the world be the 'prophets' of the aliens that helped us move on but I'm not sure.

quote:Originally posted by IanBoyd3:

Well my current idea was to have the beginning of life caused by aliens, possibly from another parallel universe or dimension from string theory. They started bacterial life in order for it to evolve to higher beings, and they did this because they wanted company and new kinds of beings to experience life. They have given us some help through the ages and some guidance, but other then that allow us to develop on our own. They are waiting for us to develop, evolve, mature, and advance to the point where we could join our alien creators as companions, allies and friends. To get there, we have to advance in several ways - Societally, getting past racism and prejudice, empathy and sympathy to help the poor, do good and become a wholly moral society; Technologically, by means of self-improvement on the mind, nanotech, robotics, but mostly mind enhancement; and finally, Interconnectivity; It started with signals, then advanced swiftly from speech to language to writing to paper to telephones to the internet to voice chat, and eventually it will advance to the mind where at some point we will be able to communicate smoothly with our creators.

Basically, it explains some holes, gives us meaning to advance through science, gives us hope for better life with the aliens, and companionship, and also says that we have to advance on the ladder of ethics and morality to finally earn the right to live with our creators, our ancestors, and together go on to do great things, and maybe to ultimately conquer death and create our own perfect infinite paradises.

If you have better ideas, let me know. I'm considering having different geniuses of the world be the 'prophets' of the aliens that helped us move on but I'm not sure.

This is from truth is all's thread about the bible:

quote:Originally posted by Aft3r ImaGe:



Have you considered the fact history could have been mixed with theology?

We could do it in this day and age. Take history, add belief of choice, credit those beliefs for affecting history, and the present, then publish the book.

That could very well be what the church did.



My point is integrate whatever mythical belief system with history to:

1) Make it sound credible, well (real history) happened so (mythical belief) must have too

2)Give credit for (mystic belief) for natural occurances (people are stupidily doing this constantly nowadays)

3)Name off famous scientists and influential people in history talking about how they were unknowingly "inspired". Don't forget if it happened in history people will be less able to verify it didn't happen. Perhapse it would explain away an oddity in history.

Also:

4)Have a promise of them "coming back for us anytime without warning to judge the collective actions of the human race" or to "check up on us", "watch us" etc

5)Perhapse credit them for abductions and give a reason why (that would be interesting)

For the book to be somewhat consistant maybe each person would be giving a time period of history to rewrite, credit the "creator" for (historical event) because they were (pleased, disapointed, be creative) about (event caused by humans)

Also is the point to make a "better" moral religion or simply to make a consistant religion?

If we do it right we should strive to make it somewhat convincing, and consistant to what we know about the world. (no earth center of the universe etc.)

So far I'm just brain storming I don't know if I plan to participate, but very interesting idea. Don't forget history could be rewritten to fit any belief system.

P.S. The church, and the majority of people take the bible as first hand accounts by the appostles, so it would be more relistic the writter made it seem like they had first hand accounts of (event).

Edit: Added a little.

Edit: Added some more.

[This message has been edited by Aft3r ImaGe (edited 07-30-2006).]

I'm not always the fastest of writers, but I would like a part in this project, so count me in.

Aft3r ImaGe, those are some very sound ideas!

Ian, you should have a few editors participate who aren't one of the writers. Just for fact-checking and whatnot.

This is going to be very interesting.

[This message has been edited by AngryFemme (edited 07-30-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Overman:

OK, we need to invent a person who is the starter of the religion who passes on arcane knowledge and is ridiculed by the ‘heathens’ for people to admire. Christianity has Jesus, Muslims have Mohammed, Buddhists have Buddha, Zoroastrians have Zarathustra, etc. etc.

Yeah actually the religion could use that, a representative of the "creator race" for people to strive to be like. Also it would be better if people could relate to this person as much as possible so it should look human, and because Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha (and to some people god) are male, I suggest this figure to be female, although it doesn't matter in the end. The qualities of this person would be something like:

Morally superior

Wise

Patient

Pacifist

Teacher

Enlightened

Concerned about us

Inspirational

Spiritual Guide

Loving

Feel free to add

Now the religion could survive without a teacher figure, but it loses some of it's idealism in the sence that without a teacher, people are less likely to be students. Without an idol people are less likely to idolize, and imitate.

Most people like simplicity and this one representative delivering the teachings of "the race" gives people less to think about, and would be easier to swallow than just "the race" wants us to follow these rules.

These ideas may need to be altered now that I reread it, and feel free to, but I personally think the religion needs a representative for people to learn from, love, and imitate, just because thats what most people need.

quote:Originally posted by AngryFemme:

Aft3r ImaGe, those are some very sound ideas!

Ian, you should have a few editors participate who aren't one of the writers. Just for fact-checking and whatnot.

This is going to be very interesting.



Thanks AngryFemme, I am touched http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif).

I'm not sure if editors would ruin the experimental aspect of it, but considering the bible was probibly altered throughout time I don't think it would ruin the valanticity (sp?) of the results of the experiment, and since, although I like writting, but don't have enough time to write a book of a new bible, I'd be glad to edit/play some other role in this.

I hate to be a dick, but we're collaborating right now. If we intend to do this properly, we need to stop collaborating.

At this point in time, our primary objective should be recruiting volunteers. Once that is done, we can begin writing the document (without collaborating!!!)

quote:Originally posted by jsaxton14:

I hate to be a dick, but we're collaborating right now. If we intend to do this properly, we need to stop collaborating.

At this point in time, our primary objective should be recruiting volunteers. Once that is done, we can begin writing the document (without collaborating!!!)

sorry, man, but you just can't stop creative minds from creating. you're right, though, we do need to get the 40 people for it before we get too many ideas together.

quote:Originally posted by jsaxton14:

I hate to be a dick, but we're collaborating right now. If we intend to do this properly, we need to stop collaborating.

At this point in time, our primary objective should be recruiting volunteers. Once that is done, we can begin writing the document (without collaborating!!!)

Yea he's right. I have it pretty much worked out in my head but I'm not going to give any more of it away.

The goal is consistency, but we also do want to make it a moral religion, which will happen based off the fact that it's consistent, and consistently moral.



Alright, I'm leaving tomorrow morning and going out of town for a week. Here's what I want to happen:

-Keep this thread bumped and keep people signing up

-Someone periodically post a current list of members who signed up (I'll do the first later tonight).

-Collect email addresses and some kind of instant messenger screename.

In a week I hope to start off the email writing chain. Let's keep the volunteers coming.

[This message has been edited by IanBoyd3 (edited 07-31-2006).]

This could be interesting. I'm in, if you want me involved.

this is coming along great so far

Without any interaction, something which the writters probibly had the advantage of, we'll be lucky if 2 books have any related content. Keep in mind the people who wrote these books probibly influenced each other, still I'm all up for complete randomness.

The more writters the better odds of something being consistant, and we definitly have some intellegent people, this should be interesting.

I guess I'm in then.

Alright this is my last post for a week. While I'm gone, keep gathering people.

More importantly

Leave your email addresses.

I need a list and then I need to organize the mailing chain of who writes what stories and sends them to who, and which people can do what kind of translation.

If someone takes the initiative, you could start assigning books for people to write and the mailing order. I will write the first book.

See you all in a week.

aft3rimage AT mailvault.com

no spaces

quote:Originally posted by IanBoyd3:

More importantly

Leave your email addresses.



Mine's in my profile, just like anyone else who's halfway serious.

elevatedjac01@hotmail.com

Like I said, driescrabbe@hotmail.com , I use msn as well.

here is the list of people so far

1.Ianboyd3

2.Beta69

3.Graemy

4.jsaxton14

5.RogueEagle91

6.Abrahim

7.Angry Femme

8.gremlin hunter

9.Twisted_Ferret

10.Dre Crabbe

11.Viraljimmy

12.malaria

13.hespeaks

14.Aft3r ImaGe

15.Flock

16.Fate



[This message has been edited by Graemy (edited 07-31-2006).]

I am @ hotmail or @ yahoo. FYI

(email)

andrejean844@yahoo.com in email or Andrejean844 on AIM

ker bumbity

Um, I never asked to be on the list so can you take me off, please. I was just offering some suggestions, I’m not going to write anything, I’ve been too tired lately and have my own novellas to work on.

sorry

quote:Originally posted by Graemy:

sorry

No worries.

runningeagle91@msn.com

twisted dot ferret at gmail dot com.

Edit: Something to keep in mind: Many Biblical apologists resort to explaining away fallacies etc. by appealing to the original language and thus giving the English translation a different spin that - in their mind - eliminates the problem. We could do the same, when it's done; though that's probably quite a while away.

[This message has been edited by Twisted_Ferret (edited 08-01-2006).]

I would like to participate in this experiment.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by IanBoyd3:



{-Research how the bible was written like jsaxton said (one person wrote the first 5 books and so on)



No, shouldnt you do it from scratch?

I realise that most of you think that the Bible is a collection of older myths and stories... copied and embelished, but if you are truely doing this as objectively as possible, i think you might want to keep the correspondance to a minimum while writing this.. remember-- it was about 40 authors over a period of about 1500 years from many different walks of life... and the claim is that they were Divinely inspired (in other words, except for the New Testement, they didnt get a chance to conspire the story)



-Assign books

to be as objective as possible, is there a way that this could be done without having somesuch assignment?

what i might suggest is put the names in a hat, and you only get to know the book you are writing when you get the e-mail with the story to that point.



The strange thing is that christians will claim the books were divinely inspired. The problem is that most of them were bad and inconsistent and were thrown out by the council of nicea.

you might want to have someone do some good study on the C.o.N.



Good luck with your endevour! I hope that you post the story (both prior to your Council of Totse and after) The prior work would be a simulation of archeologists findings that pre-nicea/trent docs are nearly like post council.

oh, and just for the record, im not interested in participating...

i would like to stay JAFO.

I think if you are truly looking to do an experiment like you said, there ought not be any conspiring whatsoever. No guidelines or groundrules. No assignments. Just write what you want and at the end, bring them all together and see if it is possible to make any sense out of them.

That said, rather than each of us give out our email address, it ought to be one person (the original poster) posting their email address and just collecting the various works. Then at an arbitrary deadline all of them are revealed for our 'council' to review and select from.

I am an atheist and I am very interested. I've always wanted to write a holy book, start my own religion,etc. Besides I need a nice little project to get me back into writing again. Anyway here is my email.

zombifunk@hotmail.com

I'm in. Give me the info I need.

My email's ninjas.rule@gmail.com

I'm interested to see Ian's first draft.



Realistically, how long do all of you think it will take to bring this to completion? From beginning to end. I think there needs to be some kind of goal set, a deadline. Else this could go on for a ridiculous amount of time. We'd all work better with a small amount of pressure, yes?

quote:Originally posted by Graemy:

here is the list of people so far

1.Ianboyd3

2.Beta69

3.Graemy

4.jsaxton14

5.RogueEagle91

6.Abrahim

7.Angry Femme

8.gremlin hunter

9.Twisted_Ferret

10.Dre Crabbe

11.Viraljimmy

12.malaria

13.hespeaks

14.Aft3r ImaGe

15.Flock

16.Fate



17.Funkyzombie

18.Gorloche

19.piewalker101

20.CmaN3

21.Elephantitis Man

22.Starlightfox

23.Clarphimous

24.Fundokiller

25.Summer of George

26.quasicurus



[This message has been edited by Graemy (edited 08-04-2006).]

Yeah, I'm not sure how effective this will be... we're people who know each other and have discussed and so forth; people from the same time and even the same forum, whereas those who wrote the Bible were a little more widely separated. It'll be fun, but I can't see what this will actually accomplish.

Me too please. piewalker101@hotmail.com

quote:Originally posted by Twisted_Ferret:

Yeah, I'm not sure how effective this will be... we're people who know each other and have discussed and so forth; people from the same time and even the same forum, whereas those who wrote the Bible were a little more widely separated. It'll be fun, but I can't see what this will actually accomplish.

well i guess that would be a problem. how about we don't discuss what will be in it. we don't really know each other.

this test is to see if the bible was easy enough to not be divinly inspired and is just a collection of works. i agree that there will be faults as you stated.

quote:Originally posted by AngryFemme:

I'm interested to see Ian's first draft.



Realistically, how long do all of you think it will take to bring this to completion? From beginning to end. I think there needs to be some kind of goal set, a deadline. Else this could go on for a ridiculous amount of time. We'd all work better with a small amount of pressure, yes?

I agree. I say a one week deadline should get us all moving pretty quickly.

Im willing to help, im an atheist who is more intelligent than your average joe-blow. While I am willing to help, I am a huge procrastinator, so I cant garauntee I can do it, but ill try my best. And I am more than willing to help, as long as i have some backstory and such to go on(as it looks like I will), so I should be fine. My email is cman342 AT gmail DOT com. I'd love to help.

abrahimesker@hotmail.com all yall can add me.

only just read this thread and I don't normally delve outside Mad Scientists, but what they hey - I can write to a certain degree.

convolution@runbox.com

I'm quite interested in this project. I'm an atheist (former Christian), and scored 34's on both English and Reading Comprehension on the ACT (if that's any implication of my writing abilities).

One thing I'm wondering about (if it hasn't been discussed yet) is an adversary. Who is going to be our "devil"? I suppose that's the aspect I'm most interested in (I suppose if assigned to a book, I want want mine to focus on this adversary and issue warnings to humanity to beware him/her/it/them). What do you think?

Oh, and my email is hatepirate@gmail.com. I may take a day or two to respond, though (I'm living at home currently, since I've developed tourettes'-like symptoms). Hopefully we'll have high-speed installed in a week or two. But drop me a line. I'd like to see where all of us can take this. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

[This message has been edited by Elephantitis Man (edited 08-03-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Elephantitis Man:

One thing I'm wondering about (if it hasn't been discussed yet) is an adversary. Who is going to be our "devil"? I suppose that's the aspect I'm most interested in (I suppose if assigned to a book, I want want mine to focus on this adversary and issue warnings to humanity to beware him/her/it/them). What do you think?

You're a smart guy, and I'm glad you've decided to join the project. However, I should note again that the Christian claim is that the authors of the Bible did not collaborate whatsoever. Thus, if we really want to refute this claim, we either:

-prove the authors of the Bible did collaborate

-refrain from collaboration as well, no matter how tempting it may be

Later today I'll talk to some people (non-totseans) who may be interested.

This sounds pretty cool. Im up for it.

starlightfox@gmail.com

over half way there

I don't think we will get to 40 people. Maybe 30 is more feasible?

I'll join in. One thing about the Bible is that it goes on a timeline, and the newer parts of the OT is based on the law in the earlier parts, reinterpreted of course. And the new testament uses the Old Testament laws. So I think we should do this in several sessions. And each section represents a period further into the future.

Edit: my e-mail is youwilldieaterribledeath@hotmail.com

Edit 2: I need to read more carefully >.<



[This message has been edited by Clarphimous (edited 08-04-2006).]

Okay, I read through the ideas at the start, and I think instead of doing it completely sequentially, have a few people write the next section each time. Still independently, of course. Maybe choose which ones we like, or maybe even mix and match them like the pentateuch.

That's more like how the Bible was done.

[This message has been edited by Clarphimous (edited 08-04-2006).]

This sounds good. Count me in. Fitzland11@yahoo.com

BTW, I will be gone for a couple of days next week but I hope I can still help.

I'll help

fundokiller@gmail.com

quas will help.

16millionreserve@gmail.com

If you don't already have 40 people, I'd like to help. I'm literate, and an intelligent atheist(the spelling mistake in my name is a typo). I don't have a messenger program, but I can just download whatever we're going to use. I have a LOT of free time year-round, so finding time to write is no problem.

I'll leave my email at the bottom of this post.



raimajere@gmail.com

quote:Originally posted by Graemy:



here is the list of people so far

1.Ianboyd3

2.Beta69

3.Graemy

4.jsaxton 14

5.RogueEagle91

6.Abrahim

7.Angry Femme

8.gremlin hunter

9.Twisted_Ferret

10.Dre Crabbe

11.Viraljimmy

12.malaria

13.hespeaks

14.Aft3r ImaGe

15.Flock

16.Fate

17.Funkyzombie

18.Gorloche

19.piewalker101

20.CmaN3

21.Elephantitis Man

22.Starlightfox

23.Clarphimous

24.Fundokiller

25.Summer of George

26.quasicurus





27.UnfitPuppetToSoceity

[This message has been edited by Graemy (edited 08-05-2006).]

I'm excited!

me too

This really is an experiment in futility. While it may show something, the premise is entirely false and purposefullys as well, thus any results are grossly biased, if any results are to be had.

so, when we reach 40 will an email be sent out?

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

This really is an experiment in futility. While it may show something, the premise is entirely false and purposefullys as well, thus any results are grossly biased, if any results are to be had.

True Dat! I just like writing!

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

This really is an experiment in futility. While it may show something, the premise is entirely false and purposefullys as well, thus any results are grossly biased, if any results are to be had.

but hey it will be fun

Put me in. I need to practice writing for school again, anyways. This is a really cool project, I'd like to help however I can.

Alright, I'm back. Hopefully this can get started soon. While we continue to collect these things I am going to try and physically start writing the first book(s).

Keep in mind there are two 'kinds' of collaborating - one of them is ok, the other is not.

We can't talk to each other about the story at all. The only thing you have to go on while writing is what has already been written so far, which is what the bible writers had as well.

However, what we are doing now is fine. We have to organize this email chain so that we can pass on the stories to each other. People also have to be aware of what we are doing in the first place so that they can decide to volunteer or not.

This is the internet. We are all anonymous and come from different places and different walks of life, exactly like the writers of the bible.

The goal here is to see how divinely inspired those writers were. If 40 of us can each independently write a new book working off the previous ones, and be consistent, and even come up with a more moral and better written book then the bible, then it removes a lot of credibility.

We don't have 40 yet, but we can start without them because it is sure to take some time to get through that list and by then more will probably have joined.

So, here is a master list of everyone, and their email addresses. This will be the order in which people will write the stories. Not everyone has an email listed, so we will just skip over them when it's time to mail out the next story. The order can change if, for example, it's almost your turn to write but you are going out of town for a few weeks or you decide not to do it. Otherwise, this is it folks.

1.Ianboyd3

ian.boyd@comcast.net

2.Beta69

3.Graemy

elevatedjac01

4.jsaxton 14

5.RogueEagle91

runningeagle91@msn.com

6.Abrahim

abrahimesker@hotmail.com

7.Angry Femme

AngryFemme@hotmail.com

8.gremlin hunter

9.Twisted_Ferret

twisted.ferret@gmail.com

10.Dre Crabbe

driescrabbe@hotmail.com

11.Viraljimmy

12.malaria

13.hespeaks

andrejean844@yahoo.com

14.Aft3r ImaGe

aft3rimage@mailvault.com



15 .Flock

16.Fate

17.Funkyzom bie

zombifunk@hotmail.com

18.G orloche

ninjas.rule@gmail.com

19.piewalk er101

piewalker101@hotmail.com

20 .CmaN3

cman342@gmail.com

21.Elephantitis Man

hatepirate@gmail.com

22.Starlightfox

starlightfox@gmail.com

23.Clarphimous

youwilldieaterribledeath@hotmail.com

24.Fundokiller

fundokiller@gmail.com

25.Summer of George

fitzland11@yahoo.com

26.quasicurus

16millionreserve@gmail.com

27.UnfitPuppetToSoceity

raimajere@gmail.com

28.Phinks

convolution@runbox.com

ViralJimmy, Flock, Malaria, Beta69, Gremlin Hunter, and Fate still need to give their email addresses (Fate, it's not in your profile).

I'm starting to work on the initial story and we can get started in a few days.

I will email the story to the first person once I finish it. He will then add his story, and email both of them to the next person, who will add his and send all 3 to the next person etc etc..

So yea, keep volunteering and put up those email addresses so we can really get this thing off the ground.

I'm considering, actually, just having everyone mail the stories to everyone. Like, when I finish it I will email it to the whole list, then they will add theirs and email it to everyone, and so on. This would save the time of needing to wait for the next person to read all of the stories in one sitting. Otherwise it will take longer and longer everytime for the next book to be written because each writer has to first read all the stories plus 1.

I think we will do it that way actually. That way you can continually check in with the story and it will be a much quicker process.

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

This really is an experiment in futility. While it may show something, the premise is entirely false and purposefullys as well, thus any results are grossly biased, if any results are to be had.

Actually, i think this might show some things that are generally overlooked....

Let's see what happens.

(and for the record, for those that dont know me, i do take a YEC , 100% Divine inspiration outlook of God's Word)

johnny

Ian, you also forgot the part where none of the New Testament authors knew any of the Old Testament authors...and the Bible was written over a period of 1600-2000 years. You need to write your story on papyrus, using quills. If you screw up, you have to start over. The whole thing.

You also need to write prophecies that will be fulfilled, which can later be proven by archeological digs. Include 100's of them, to ensure complete amazement by future readers.

Some of the people contributing to this book should hide their chapters for 100's of years, without allowing anyone else contributing to read them before hiding them.

Those are only a few requirements I can think of at the moment, should you want to write this as closely akin to how the Bible was written as possible. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

quote:You also need to write prophecies that will be fulfilled, which can later be proven by archeological digs. Include 100's of them, to ensure complete amazement by future readers.

Correction: vague, easy to interpret prophecies, you crazy 'literalist', you. http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Ian, you also forgot the part where none of the New Testament authors knew any of the Old Testament authors...and the Bible was written over a period of 1600-2000 years. You need to write your story on papyrus, using quills. If you screw up, you have to start over. The whole thing.

This is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. In my Church, I was taught that the authors of the Bible were inspired by God. If this is the case, they wouldn't have screwed up.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

You also need to write prophecies that will be fulfilled, which can later be proven by archeological digs. Include 100's of them, to ensure complete amazement by future readers.

About six months ago on this forum I asked for an example of a specific Biblical prophecy that has been fufilled (ie: this specific event will happen at this specific time.) None were posted. If any do exist, please create another thread to enlighten the rest of us.

Regarding archaeological evidence, I intend to at least touch on events that actually happened. Perhaps I'll allude to Gandhi or something. Hundreds of years from now, when everyone is claiming that this is simply a myth perpetuated by bored youths in the early 21st century, believers can point out the verses that allude to Gandhi and say, "Aha! The verses on Gandhi have been proven to be true! It follows that the rest of this document is true!"

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Some of the people contributing to this book should hide their chapters for 100's of years, without allowing anyone else contributing to read them before hiding them.

Perhaps some of the books of the Bible were written like this, I don't know. However, the claim that I encounter most often is "The Bible was written by over 40 people from many walks of life and contains no contradictions. Ordinary men could not do this, thus the Bible is divinely inspired." This experiment aims to shatter that myth.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Those are only a few requirements I can think of at the moment, should you want to write this as closely akin to how the Bible was written as possible. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

Every piece of literature has been written differently. It is impossible to duplicate the exact writing process for a given book, especially one with a history as rich as that of the Bible. However, you must realize that is not what we aim to do. We simply aim to demonstrate that there is nothing special about 40 people contributing to a book.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Ian, you also forgot the part where none of the New Testament authors knew any of the Old Testament authors...and the Bible was written over a period of 1600-2000 years. You need to write your story on papyrus, using quills. If you screw up, you have to start over. The whole thing.

You also need to write prophecies that will be fulfilled, which can later be proven by archeological digs. Include 100's of them, to ensure complete amazement by future readers.

Some of the people contributing to this book should hide their chapters for 100's of years, without allowing anyone else contributing to read them before hiding them.

Those are only a few requirements I can think of at the moment, should you want to write this as closely akin to how the Bible was written as possible. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

Yes be sure to email the papyrus to everyone.

It's not like the Bible doesn't have errors in the fashion in which they were copied and re written which still remain in the text.

Here we go! Check 101 Contradictions Online for a copy of this document and sources"

101 Clear Contradictions In The Bible

Contradiction #1

Who incited David to count the fighting men of Israel? (a) God did (2 Samuel 24:1) (b) Satan did (1 Chronicles 21:1).

Contradiction #2

In that count how many fighting men were found in Israel? (a) Eight hundred thousand (2 Samuel 24:9). (b) One million, one hundred thousand (1 Chronicles 21:5).

Contradiction #3

How many fighting men were found in Judah? (a) Five hundred thousand (2 Samuel 24:9). (b) Four hundred and seventy thousand (1 Chronicles 21:5).

Contradiction #4

God sent his prophet to threaten David with how many years of famine? (a) Seven (2 Samuel 24:13). (b) Three (1 Chronicles 21:12).

Contradiction #5

How old was Ahaziah when he began to rule over Jerusalem? (a) Twenty-two (2 Kings 8:26). (b) Forty-two (2 Chronicles 22:2).

Contradiction #6

How old was Jehoiachin when he became king of Jerusalem? (a) Eighteen (2 Kings 24:8). (b) Eight (2 Chronicles 36:9).

Contradiction #7

How long did he rule over Jerusalem? (a) Three months (2 Kings 24:8). (b) Three months and ten days (2 Chronicles 36:9).

Contradiction #8

The chief of the mighty men of David lifted up his spear and killed how many men at one time? (a) Eight hundred (2 Samuel 23:8). (b) Three hundred (1 Chronicles 11:11).

Contradiction #9

When did David bring the Ark of the Covenant to Jerusalem? Before defeating the Philistines or after? (a) After (2 Samuel 5 and 6). (b) Before (1 Chronicles 13 and 14).

Contradiction #10

How many pairs of clean animals did God tell Noah to take into the Ark? (a) Two (Genesis 6:19, 20). (b) Seven (Genesis 7:2). But despite this last instruction only two pairs went into the ark (Genesis 7:8, 9).

Contradiction #11

When David defeated the King of Zobah, how many horsemen did he capture? (a) One thousand and seven hundred (2 Samuel 8:4). (b) Seven thousand (1 Chronicles 18:4).

Contradiction #12

How many stalls for horses did Solomon have? (a) Forty thousand (1 Kings 4:26). (b) Four thousand (2 chronicles 9:25).

Contradiction #13

In what year of King Asa's reign did Baasha, King of Israel die? (a) Twenty-sixth year (1 Kings 15:33 - 16:8). (b) Still alive in the thirty-sixth year (2 Chronicles 16:1).

Contradiction #14

How many overseers did Solomon appoint for the work of building the temple? (a) Three thousand six hundred (2 Chronicles 2:2) (b) Three thousand three hundred (1 Kings 5:16).

Contradiction #15

Solomon built a facility containing how many baths? (a) Two thousand (1 Kings 7:26). (b) Over three thousand (2 Chronicles 4:5).

Contradiction #16

Of the Israelites who were freed from the Babylonian captivity, how many were the children of Pahrath-Moab? (a) Two thousand eight hundred and twelve (Ezra 2:6). (b) Two thousand eight hundred and eighteen (Nehemiah 7:11).

Contradiction #17

How many were the children of Zattu? (a) Nine hundred and forty-five (Ezra 2:8) (b) Eight hundred and forty-five (Nehemiah 7:13).

Contradiction #18

How many were the children of Azgad? (a) One thousand two hundred and twenty-two (Ezra 2:12). (b) Two thousand three hundred and twenty-two (Nehemiah 7:17). Contradiction #19

How many were the children of Adin? (a) Four hundred and fifty-four (Ezra 2:15). (b) Six hundred and fifty-five (Nehemiah 7:20).

Contradiction #20

How many were the children of Hashum? (a) Two hundred and twenty-three (Ezra 2:19). (b) Three hundred and twenty-eight (Nehemiah 7:22).

Contradiction #21

How many were the children of Bethel and Ai? (a) Two hundred and twenty-three (Ezra 2:28). (b) One hundred and twenty-three (Nehemiah 7:32).

Contradiction #22

Ezra 2:64 and Nehemiah 7:66 agree that the total number of the whole assembly was 42,360. Yet the numbers do not add up to anything close. The totals obtained from each book is as follows: (a) 29,818 (Ezra). (b) 31, 089 (Nehemiah).

Contradiction #23

How many singers accompanied the assembly? (a) Two hundred (Ezra 2:65). (b) Two hundred and forty-five (Nehemiah 7:67).

Contradiction #24

What was the name of King Abijah's mother? (a) Michaiah, daughter of Uriel of Gibeah (2 Chronicles 13:2). (b) Maachah, daughter of Absalom (2 Chronicles 11:20). But Absalom had only one daughter whose name was Tamar (2 Samuel 14:27).

Contradiction #25

Did Joshua and the Israelites capture Jerusalem? (a) Yes (Joshua 10:23, 40). (b) No (Joshua 15:63).

Contradiction #26

Who was the father of Joseph, husband of Mary? (a) Jacob (Matthew 1:16). (b) Heli (Luke 3:23).

Contradiction #27

Jesus descended from which son of David? (a) Solomon (Matthew 1:6). (b) Nathan (Luke 3:31).

Contradiction #28

Who was the father of Shealtiel? (a) Jechoniah (Matthew 1:12). (b) Neri (Luke 3:27).

Contradiction #29

Which son of Zerubbabel was an ancestor of Jesus Christ? (a) Abiud (Matthew 1:13). (b) Rhesa (Luke 3:27). But the seven sons of Zerubbabel are as follows: I. Meshullam, ii. Hananiah, iii. Hashubah, iv. Ohel, v. Berechiah, vi. Hasadiah, viii. Jushabhesed (1 Chronicles 3:19, 20). The names Abiud and Rhesa do not fit in anywhere.

Contradiction #30

Who was the father of Uzziah? (a) Joram (Matthew 1:8). (b) Amaziah (2 Chronicles 26:1).

Contradiction #31

Who as the father of Jechoniah? (a) Josiah (Matthew 1:11). (b) Jehoiakim (1 Chronicles 3:16).

Contradiction #32

How many generations were there from the Babylonian exile until Christ? (a) Matthew says fourteen (Matthew 1:17). (b) But a careful count of the generations reveals only thirteen (see Matthew 1:12-16).

Contradiction #33

Who was the father of Shelah? (a) Cainan (Luke 3:35-36). (b) Arphaxad (Genesis 11:12).

Contradiction #34

Was John the Baptist Elijah who was to come? (a) Yes (Matthew 11:14, 17:10-13). (b) No (John 1:19-21).

Contradiction #35

Would Jesus inherit David's throne? (a) Yes. So said the angel (Luke 1:32). (b) No, since he is a descendant of Jehoiakim (see Matthew 1:11, 1 Chronicles 3:16). And Jehoiakim was cursed by God so that none of his descendants can sit upon David's throne (Jeremiah 36:30).

Contradiction #36

Jesus rode into Jerusalem on how many animals? (a) One - a colt (Mark 11:7; cf. Luke 19:35). And they brought the colt to Jesus and threw their garments on it; and he sat upon it." (b) Two - a colt and an ass (Matthew 21:7). They brought the ass and the colt and put their garments on them and he sat thereon."

Contradiction #37

How did Simon Peter find out that Jesus was the Christ? (a) By a revelation from heaven (Matthew16:17). (b) His brother Andrew told him (John 1:41).

Contradiction #38

Where did Jesus first meet Simon Peter and Andrew? (a) By the sea of Galilee (Matthew 4:18-22). (b) On the banks of river Jordan (John 1:42). After that, Jesus decided to go to Galilee (John 1:43).

Contradiction #39

When Jesus met Jairus was Jairus' daughter already dead? (a) Yes. Matthew 9:18 quotes him as saying, "My daughter has just died." (b) No. Mark 5:23 quotes him as saying, "My little daughter is at the point of death."

Contradiction #40

Did Jesus allow his disciples to keep a staff on their journey? (a) Yes (Mark 6:8). (b) No (Matthew 10:9; Luke 9:3).

Contradiction #41

Did Herod think that Jesus was John the baptist? (a) Yes (Matthew 14:2; Mark 6:16). (b) No (Luke 9:9)

Contradiction #42

Did John the Baptist recognise Jesus before his baptism? (a) Yes (Matthew 3:13-14). (b) No (John 1:32, 33).

Contradiction #43

Did John the Baptist recognize Jesus after his baptism? (a) Yes (John 1:32, 33). (b) No (Matthew 11:2).

Contradiction #44

According to the Gospel of John, what did Jesus say about bearing his own witness? (a) "If I bear witness to myself, my testimony is not true"(John 5:31). (b) "Even if I do bear witness to myself, my testimony is true" (John 8:14).

Contradiction #45

When Jesus entered Jerusalem did he cleanse the temple that same day? (a) Yes (Matthew 21:12). (b) No. He went into the temple and looked around, but since it was very late he did nothing. Instead, he went to Bethany to spend the night and returned the next morning to cleanse the temple (Mark 11:1-17).

Contradiction #46

The Gospels say that Jesus cursed a fig tree. Did the tree wither at once? (a) Yes. (Matthew 21:19). (b) No. It withered overnight (Mark 11:20).

Contradiction #47

Did Judas kiss Jesus? (a) Yes (Matthew 26:48-50). (b) No. Judas could not get close enough to Jesus to kiss him (John 18:3-12).

Contradiction #48

What did Jesus say about Peter's denial? (a) "The cock will not crow till you have denied me three times" (John 13:38). (b) "Before the cock crows twice you will deny me three times" (Mark 14:30). When the cock crowed once, the three denials were not yet complete (see Mark 14:72). Therefore prediction (a) failed.

Contradiction #49

Did Jesus bear his own cross? (a) Yes (John 19:17). (b) No (Matthew 27:31-32).

Contradiction #50

Did Jesus die before the curtain of the temple was torn? (a) Yes (Matthew 27:50-51; Mark 15:37-38). (b) No. After the curtain was torn, then Jesus crying with a loud voice, said, "Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit!" And having said this he breathed his last (Luke 23:45-46).

Contradiction #51

Did Jesus say anything secretly? (a) No. "I have said nothing secretly" (John 18:20). (b) Yes. "He did not speak to them without a parable, but privately to his own disciples he explained everything" (Mark 4:34). The disciples asked him "Why do you speak to them in parables?" He said, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given" (Matthew 13:10-11).

Contradiction #52

Where was Jesus at the sixth hour on the day of the crucifixion? (a) On the cross (Mark 15:23). (b) In Pilate's court (John 19:14).

Contradiction #53

The gospels say that two thieves were crucified along with Jesus. Did both thieves mock Jesus? (a) Yes (Mark 15:32). (b) No. One of them mocked Jesus, the other defended Jesus (Luke 23:43).

Contradiction #54

Did Jesus ascend to Paradise the same day of the crucifixion? (a) Yes. He said to the thief who defended him, "Today you will be with me in Paradise" (Luke 23:43). (b) No. He said to Mary Magdelene two days later, "I have not yet ascended to the Father" (John 20:17).

Contradiction #55

When Paul was on the road to Damascus he saw a light and heard a voice. Did those who were with him hear the voice? (a) Yes (Acts 9:7). (b) No (Acts 22:9).

Contradiction #56

When Paul saw the light he fell to the ground. Did his traveling companions also fall to the ground? (a) Yes (Acts 26:14). (b) No (Acts 9:7).

Contradiction #57

Did the voice spell out on the spot what Paul's duties were to be? (a) Yes (Acts 26:16-18). (b) No. The voice commanded Paul to go into the city of Damascus and there he will be told what he must do. (Acts 9:7; 22:10).

Contradiction #58

When the Israelites dwelt in Shittin they committed adultery with the daughters of Moab. God struck them with a plague. How many people died in that plague? (a) Twenty-four thousand (Numbers 25:1 and 9). (b) Twenty-three thousand (1 Corinthians 10:8).

Contradiction #59

How many members of the house of Jacob came to Egypt? (a) Seventy souls (Genesis 46:27). (b) Seventy-five souls (Acts 7:14).

Contradiction #60

What did Judas do with the blood money he received for betraying Jesus? (a) He bought a field (Acts 1:18). (b) He threw all of it into the temple and went away. The priests could not put the blood money into the temple treasury, so they used it to buy a field to bury strangers (Matthew 27:5).

Contradiction #61

How did Judas die? (a) After he threw the money into the temple he went away and hanged himself (Matthew 27:5). (b) After he bought the field with the price of his evil deed he fell headlong and burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out (Acts 1:18).

Contradiction #62

Why is the field called "Field of Blood"? (a) Because the priests bought it with the blood money (Matthew 27:8). (b) Because of the bloody death of Judas therein (Acts 1:19).

Contradiction #63

Who is a ransom for whom? (a) "The Son of Man came . . . to give his life as a ransom for many" (Mark 10:45). " . . . Christ Jesus who gave himself as a ransom for all . . . " (1 Timothy 2:5-6). (b) "The wicked is a ransom for the righteous, and the faithless for the upright" (Proverbs 21:18).

Contradiction #64

Is the law of Moses useful? (a) Yes. "All scripture is . . . profitable . . ." (2 Timothy 3:16). (b) No. ". . . A former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness . . . " (Hebrews 7:18).

Contradiction #65

What was the exact wording on the cross? (a) "This is Jesus the King of the Jews" (Matthew 27:37). (b) "The King of the Jews" (Mark 15:26) (c) "This is the King of the Jews" (Luke 23:38). (d) "Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews" (John 19:19).

Contradiction #66

Did Herod want to kill John the Baptist? (a) Yes (Matthew 14:5). (b) No. It was Herodias, the wife of Herod who wanted to kill him. But Herod knew that he was a righteous man and kept him safe (Mark 6:20).

Contradiction #67

Who was the tenth disciple of Jesus in the list of twelve? (a) Thaddaeus (Matthew 10:1-4; Mark 3:13-19). (b) Judas son of James is the corresponding name in Luke's gospel (Luke 6:12-16).

Contradiction #68

Jesus saw a man sitting at the tax collector's office and called him to be his disciple. What was his name? (a) Matthew (Matthew 9:9). (b) Levi (Mark 2:14; Luke 5:27).

Contradiction #69

Was Jesus crucified on the daytime before the Passover meal or the daytime after? (a) After (Mark 14:12-17). (b) Before. Before the feast of the Passover (John 13:1) Judas went out at night (John 13:30). The other disciples thought he was going out to buy supplies to prepare for the Passover meal (John 13:29). When Jesus was arrested, the Jews did not enter Pilate's judgement hall because they wanted to stay clean to eat the Passover (John 18:28). When the judgement was pronounced against Jesus, it was about the sixth hour on the day of Preparation for the Passover (John 19:14).

Contradiction #70

Did Jesus pray to The Father to prevent the crucifixion? (a) Yes. (Matthew 26:39; Mark 14:36; Luke 22:42). (b) No. (John 12:27).

Contradiction #71

In the gospels which say that Jesus prayed to avoid the cross, how many times did he move away from his disciples to pray? (a) Three (Matthew 26:36-46 and Mark 14:32-42). (b) One. No opening is left for another two times. (Luke 22:39-46).

Contradiction #72

Matthew and Mark agree that Jesus went away and prayed three times. What were the words of the second prayer? (a) Mark does not give the words but he says that the words were the same as the first prayer (Mark 14:39). (b) Matthew gives us the words, and we can see that they are not the same as in the first (Matthew 26:42).

Contradiction #73

What did the centurion say when Jesus dies? (a) "Certainly this man was innocent" (Luke 23:47). (b) "Truly this man was the Son of God" (Mark 15:39).

Contradiction #74

When Jesus said "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" in what language did he speak? (a) Hebrew: the words are "Eli, Eli . . . " (Matthew 27:46). (b) Aramaic: the words are "Eloi, Eloi . . . " (Mark 15:34).

Contradiction #75

According to the gospels, what were the last words of Jesus before he died? (a) "Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit!" (Luke 23:46). (b) "It is finished" (John 19:30).

Contradiction #76

When Jesus entered Capernaum he healed the slave of a centurion. Did the centurion come personally to request Jesus for this? (a) Yes (Matthew 8:5). (b) No. He sent some elders of the Jews and his friends (Luke 7:3, 6).

Contradiction #77

(a) Adam was told that if and when he eats the forbidden fruit he would die the same day (Genesis 2:17). (b) Adam ate the fruit and went on to live to a ripe old age of 930 years (Genesis 5:5).

Contradiction #78

(a) God decided that the life-span of humans will be limited to 120 years (Genesis 6:3). (b) Many people born after that lived longer than 120. Arpachshad lived 438 years. His son Shelah lived 433 years. His son Eber lived 464 years, etc. (Genesis 11:12-16).

Contradiction #79

Apart from Jesus did anyone else ascend to heaven? (a) No (John 3:13). (b) Yes. "And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven" (2 Kings 2:11).

Contradiction #80

Who was high priest when David went into the house of God and ate the consecrated bread? (a) Abiathar (Mark 2:26). (b) Ahimelech, the father of Abiathar (1 Samuel 21:1; 22:20).

Contradiction #81

Was Jesus' body wrapped in spices before burial in accordance with Jewish burial customs? (a) Yes and his female disciples witnessed his burial (John 19:39-40). (b) No. Jesus was simply wrapped in a linen shroud. Then the women bought and prepared spices "so that they may go and anoint him [Jesus]" (Mark 16:1).

Contradiction #82

When did the women buy the spices? (a) After "the sabbath was past" (Mark 16:1). (b) Before the sabbath. The women "prepared spices and ointments." Then, "on the Sabbath they rested according to the commandment" (Luke 23:55 to 24:1).

Contradiction #83

At what time of day did the women visit the tomb? (a) "Toward the dawn" (Matthew 28:1). (b) "When the sun had risen" (Mark 16:2).

Contradiction #84

What was the purpose for which the women went to the tomb? (a) To anoint Jesus' body with spices (Mark 16:1;Luke 23:55 to 24:1). (b) To see the tomb. Nothing about spices here (Matthew 28:1). For no specified reason. In this gospel the wrapping with spices had been done before the sabbath (John 20:1).

Contradiction #85

A large stone was placed at the entrance of the tomb. Where was the stone when the women arrived? (a) They saw that the stone was "Rolled back" (Mark 16:4). They found the stone "rolled away from the tomb" (Luke 24:2). They saw that "the stone had been taken away from the tomb" (John 20:1) (b) As the women approached, an angel descended from heaven, rolled away the stone, and conversed with the women. Matthew made the women witness the spectacular rolling away of the stone (Matthew 28:1-6).

Contradiction #86

Did anyone tell the women what happened to Jesus' body? (a) Yes. "A young man in a white robe" (Mark 16:5). "Two men . . . in dazzling apparel" later described as angels (Luke 24:4 and 24:23). An angel - the one who rolled back the stone (Matthew 16:2). In each case the women were told that Jesus had risen from the dead (Matthew 28:7; Mark 16:6; Luke 24:5 footnote). (b) No. Mary met no one and returned saying, "They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid him" (John 20:2).

Contradiction #87

When did Mary Magdelene first meet the resurrected Jesus? And how did she react? (a) Mary and the other women met Jesus on their way back from their first and only visit to the tomb. They took hold of his feet and worshiped him (Matthew 28:9). (b) On her second visit to the tomb Mary met Jesus just outside the tomb. When she saw Jesus she did not recognize him. She mistook him for the gardener. She still thinks that Jesus' body is laid to rest somewhere and she demands to know where. But when Jesus said her name she at once recognized him and called him "Teacher." Jesus said to her, "Do not hold me . . . " (John 20:11 to 17).

Contradiction #88

What was Jesus' instruction for his disciples? (a) "Tell my brethren to go to Galilee, and there they will see me" (Matthew 28:10). (b) "Go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God" (John 20:17).

Contradiction #89

When did the disciples return to Galilee? (a) Immediately, because when they saw Jesus in Galilee "some doubted" (Matthew 28:17). This period of uncertainty should not persist. (b) After at least 40 days. That evening the disciples were still in Jerusalem (Luke 24:33). Jesus appeared to them there and told them, "stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high" (Luke 24:49). He was appearing to them "during forty days" (Acts 1:3), and "charged them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise . . . "(Acts 1:4).

Contradiction #90

To whom did the Midianites sell Joseph? (a) "To the Ishmaelites" (Genesis 37:28). (b) "To Potiphar, an officer of Pharoah" (Genesis 37:36).

Contradiction #91

Who brought Joseph to Egypt? (a) The Ishmaelites bought Joseph and then "took Joseph to Egypt" (Genesis 37:28). (b) "The Midianites had sold him in Egypt" (Genesis 37:36). Joseph said to his brothers "I am your brother, Joseph, whom you sold into Egypt" (Genesis 45:4).

Contradiction #92

Does God change his mind? (a) Yes. The word of the Lord came to Samuel: "I repent that I have made Saul King . . ." (1 Samuel 15:10 to 11). (b) No. God "will not lie or repent; for he is not a man, that he should repent" (1 Samuel 15:29). (c) Yes. "And the Lord repented that he had made Saul King over Israel" (1 Samuel 15:35). Notice that the above three quotes are all from the same chapter of the same book! In addition, the Bible shows that God repented on several other occasions: I. The Lord was sorry that he made man" (Genesis 6:6). " I am sorry that I have made them" (Genesis 6:7) ii."And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do to his people" (Exodus 32:14) iii.(Lots of other such references).

Contradiction #93

The Bible says that for each miracle Moses and Aaron demonstrated the same by their secret arts. Then comes the following feat: (a) Moses and Aaron converted all the available water into blood (Exodus 7:20-21). (b) The magicians did the same (Exodus 7:22). This is impossible, since there would have been no water left to convert into blood.

Contradiction #94

Who killed Goliath? (a) David (1 Samuel 17:23, 50). (b) Elhanan (2 Samuel 21:19).

Contradiction #95

Who killed Saul? (a) "Saul took his own sword and fell upon it. . . . Thus Saul died... (1 Samuel 31:4-6). (b) An Amalekite slew him (2 Samuel 1:1-16).

Contradiction #96

Does every man sin? (a) Yes. "There is no man who does not sin" (1 Kings 8:46; see also 2 Chronicles 6:36; Proverbs 20:9; Ecclesiastes 7:20; and 1 John 1:8-10). (b) No. True Christians cannot possibly sin, because they are the children of God.

Every one who believes that Jesus is the Christ is a child of God . . (1 John 5:1). "We should be called children of God; and so we are" (1 John 3:1). "He who loves is born of God" (1 John 4:7). "No one born of God commits sin; for God's nature abides in him, and he cannot sin because he is born of God" (1 John 3:9). But, then again, Yes! "If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" (1 John 1:8).

Contradiction #97

Who will bear whose burden? (a) "Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ" (Galatians 6:2). (b) "Each man will have to bear his own load" (Galatians 6:5).

Contradiction #98

How many disciples did Jesus appear to after his resurrection? (a) Twelve (1 Corinthians 15:5). (b) Eleven (Matthew 27:3-5 and Acts 1:9-26, see also Matthew 28:16; Mark 16:14 footnote; Luke 24:9; Luke 24:33).

Contradiction #99

Where was Jesus three days after his baptism? (a) After his baptism, "the spirit immediately drove him out into the wilderness. And he was in the wilderness forty days . . . (Mark 1:12-13). (b) Next day after the baptism, Jesus selected two disciples. Second day: Jesus went to Galilee — two more disciples. Third day: Jesus was at a wedding feast in Cana in Galilee (see John 1:35; 1:43; 2:1-11).

Contradiction #100

Was baby Jesus's life threatened in Jerusalem? (a) Yes, so Joseph fled with him to Egypt and stayed there until Herod died (Matthew 2:13 - 23). (b) No. The family fled nowhere. They calmly presented the child at the Jerusalem temple according to the Jewish customs and returned to Galilee (Luke 2:21-40).

Contradiction #101

When Jesus walked on water how did the disciples respond? (a) They worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God" (Matthew 14:33). (b) "They were utterly astounded, for they did not understand about the loaves, but their hearts were hardened" (Mark 6:51-52).

DS you mean prophecies that were written in the bible and then fufilled in the bible. there has never been a dig where they confirmed a prophecy.

we don't know each other. we don't know each others real names

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

Yes be sure to email the papyrus to everyone.



Heh.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Ian, you also forgot the part where none of the New Testament authors knew any of the Old Testament authors...and the Bible was written over a period of 1600-2000 years. You need to write your story on papyrus, using quills. If you screw up, you have to start over. The whole thing.

You also need to write prophecies that will be fulfilled, which can later be proven by archeological digs. Include 100's of them, to ensure complete amazement by future readers.

Some of the people contributing to this book should hide their chapters for 100's of years, without allowing anyone else contributing to read them before hiding them.

Those are only a few requirements I can think of at the moment, should you want to write this as closely akin to how the Bible was written as possible. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

so, with your obviously extensive knowledge of how the bible was produced, will you be writing your own chapters? surely we could use the input of one as enlightened as yourself. http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Ian, you also forgot the part where none of the New Testament authors knew any of the Old Testament authors...and the Bible was written over a period of 1600-2000 years. You need to write your story on papyrus, using quills. If you screw up, you have to start over. The whole thing.

You also need to write prophecies that will be fulfilled, which can later be proven by archeological digs. Include 100's of them, to ensure complete amazement by future readers.

Some of the people contributing to this book should hide their chapters for 100's of years, without allowing anyone else contributing to read them before hiding them.

Those are only a few requirements I can think of at the moment, should you want to write this as closely akin to how the Bible was written as possible. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)



Oh, right, I forgot, how silly of me.

Make sure that your stories contain many incredibly vague statements and just lots of generic nonsense. Then, when everyone writes the next chapter, make sure to look back at the 'prophecies' and make them come true when you make up the new story.

Go to this site:

http://winace.andkon.com/proph4dums/

It's called prophecy for dummies and it's pretty good.

So basically, throw in lots of silly gibberish and generic statements, and then go back and try to make some of them fit when you write your new story.

It's incredibly easy to make the vague and generic prophecies of the bible, and we could even make them more specific given the fact that we are completely making up stories, just like the bible writers.

So yea, have at it, and I'll try to get the first story done sometime, although I'm still debating exactly how to do it.

If any of you have some really good idea for the first story, though, you can write it if you want. I actually have to go out of town again in a week though so I will probably just write the first book myself and then start off the email chain.

Papyrus was used by the ancient egyptians. During Rome's age they had paper from china(courtesy of the silk roads)

IMO, the first story will make or break the ones that follow. Kudos in advance to whoever pulls it off.

Has a timeline been established? I'm guessing no.

quote:Originally posted by AngryFemme:

IMO, the first story will make or break the ones that follow. Kudos in advance to whoever pulls it off.

Has a timeline been established? I'm guessing no.

Lets begin? We might get 40 in the process but we'll already be getting there fast.

I reccomend we begin writing before we lose the people we do have. Lets start please! Femme and I are ready steady! We'll get the 40 as we write!

quote:Originally posted by IanBoyd3:



Go to this site:

http://winace.andkon.com/proph4dums/

It's called prophecy for dummies and it's pretty good.

.

Awful lot of strawmen on this site... although i only read about half of it.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

Awful lot of strawmen on this site... although i only read about half of it.



It's a website teaching people how to make up prophecies, so I have no idea how it could present strawmen in any way.



Anyway, it takes a while to write this stuff.

My email program kind of blows, and there are a lot of email addresses, so I think it would be okay if we actually just posted all the stories here, on one condition:

No collaborating.

Ok?

Once I post the first story, the next person will write the next chapter, but with no help from any one else on here.

Restrict all comments to "Good job" "Bad job" etc etc.

I should have it in a few days.

Actually, one more thing.

Although this is technically collaborating, it is completely irrelevant to the actual project, and I suck at this.

I need a name for a planet, and a species of aliens really quick. The name doesn't influence anything, but I'm just not good at making up names at all, and I don't want my shitty name to stick through the whole thing.

Oh, for the list, don't count on me to participate. Because I probably won't in the end.

quote:Originally posted by IanBoyd3:

It's a website teaching people how to make up prophecies, so I have no idea how it could present strawmen in any way.

.



You're right, he is trying to teach. In doing, he uses examples... many of the examples are strawmen.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:



You're right, he is trying to teach. In doing, he uses examples... many of the examples are strawmen.

Give an example then. By the way, he doesn't just pick on christianity...he does a pretty thorough job bringing up all the different fradulent prophets throughout all time.

Being christian means you know, for sure, that all the other prophets who did exactly what Jesus did were frauds. Which means that he's completely right on all other counts, you just think that Jesus is special somehow.

I'm in.

I take it these mythologies will start with the oldest stories possible making references to older spirtual texts and teachings but then revising or directly refuting them with the evidence of the new modern phrophets. People like gandhi, Bob dylan, Bruce lee. Including there stories as envisioned and manipulated by us for our own literary purposes.

quote:Originally posted by IanBoyd3:

Give an example then. By the way, he doesn't just pick on christianity...he does a pretty thorough job bringing up all the different fradulent prophets throughout all time.



One example is the 'after the fact' arguement, where it is claimed that "It "predicts" the state of affairs in Jerusalem and the destruction of the Jewish Temple at the hands of the Romans circa. 70 CE. Mainstream New Testament scholars concede this is an ex eventu"...

The reason this is a strawman is because



1)

the general concensus of the date of the document written about 10 - 30 years after the fact (and according to the website that the author cited, that dating is concidered about 80% accurate... the website that he sited is: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/mark.html

look at top-right of page "at a glance" and top left "chonological list")

Now allow me to point to something that might throw a wrench in that 80%...

Oldest Copy (fragment) of the Gospel of Mark.. dated 50 BC - 50 AD.

http://www.abu.nb.ca/courses/NTIntro/Mark.htm

If you dont want to read the whole page, scroll down and read section 3. and at the bottom of section 3 is the insert Oldest Copy of the Gospel of Mark?

2)

whether it was written before or after the Temple destruction in AD 70 does not prove whether the prophecy in Mark was ex eventu or the author of Mark remembering Jesus words.

3)

the prophecy site author says, "Mainstream New Testament scholars concede ..."

This implies all Mainstream New Testament scholars concede ...

It also implies (atleast, to me) that it is reluctant... which, if it is reluctant, then it implies that they are trying to defend the Bible... which is ok, but it is painting a picture to the reader that they are on the defensive and cant defend that point, so they must concede.



quote:Being christian means you know, for sure, that all the other prophets who did exactly what Jesus did were frauds. Which means that he's completely right on all other counts, you just think that Jesus is special somehow.



Sorry, but i think you might be jumping to a conclusion or two here.

First, i am not saying... i repeat, i am not saying ..

that Jesus is a prophet. Jesus is the Second person of the Triune God. The Messiah.

As the Son of the Living God, there is no way they could do what Jesus did. They might, however, be frauds (and this is what i suspect). But they also might have had some sort of ability to actually "see" some of the future (either Divinely or otherwise)..

johnny

"And thusl Mel Gibson said unto the men of kain,

"listen unto me one who's tits spew forth sweet nectar of eden, the Jeweths art directors of mine life and show me only sorrow they spread forth upon the holiest of the lords domain, calling forth the beast of all ills, spreader of war and pestilence. Listen unto me sugar tits and ye shall be spared my fucking."

Yet the men of kain listened not to Gibson, spitting and defecting upon him.

They sent Gibson to Abu Gharib, where many sins were penetrated unto Gibson for forty

nights.

On the fortieth night Gibson called for the help of god to send him an army, the lord hearing his prayer and knowing only as the lord knowteth that Mel was finally for his greatest test, he sent unto mel an army of the the People magazine, and they freeded mel Gibsonofgod and asked him for his decree.

He spoke "Make war upon the Jewteths and th'art debt of credit to god shall be payethed by 14% excludinith compound interest.

And said army of god died gloriusly in mass riotous slaughter of the jewteths.

And God loved them as he loved Mel Gibsonofgod

excepting the lessness of the love

for his love for Gibsonofgod was very great Nothing matched it

except scotch as the phrophet Farell sayeth "I love Scotch. Scotch scotch scotch"

And for the Men of kain they made a great feast. Serving unto them the skin and fat of the slayed jeweths, in the batter of the KFC Popcorn Chicken and into the bottom of the coleslaw they played the eyes and genitals of the slayed Jeweths and thusly those who Likedth the coleslaw knewith also what they had eaten and those who did not liketh coleslaw found out shortly after.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:



Sorry, but i think you might be jumping to a conclusion or two here.

First, i am not saying... i repeat, i am not saying ..

that Jesus is a prophet. Jesus is the Second person of the Triune God. The Messiah.

As the Son of the Living God, there is no way they could do what Jesus did. They might, however, be frauds (and this is what i suspect). But they also might have had some sort of ability to actually "see" some of the future (either Divinely or otherwise)..

johnny





I'm not really seeing your point on the whole strawman thing. It doesn't say "all." Mainstream scientists reached a consensus that evolution was obviously true years ago. Sure, you may find a few here and there (although there credentials may be doubtful) who disagree, but again, if most of them do, and there is consensus, then it is fair to say that 'mainstream scientists...'

Are you admitting that it was an after the fact prophecy? I'm not really getting your objection.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

I'm excited!

Doesn't take much, does it ? http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Doesn't take much, does it ? http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

Ad Hom Hypocrite.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

True Dat! I just like writing!

However incoherently...

quote:This is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. In my Church, I was taught that the authors of the Bible were inspired by God. If this is the case, they wouldn't have screwed up.

What about "inspired" means "forced their hands to move against their will" ?

I didn't say the stories were screwed up. I was referring to spelling or artistic errors. I don't know if you've ever seen Hebrew, but it's pretty intricate.

What you should find ridiculous is your ability to assume things without understanding the very thing you are making assumptions about.

quote:About six months ago on this forum I asked for an example of a specific Biblical prophecy that has been fufilled (ie: this specific event will happen at this specific time.) None were posted. If any do exist, please create another thread to enlighten the rest of us.

I wasn't here six months ago. Hit me up for fulfilled prophecies AFTER I finish in the Origins thread. I have enough to do here...

quote:Regarding archaeological evidence, I intend to at least touch on events that actually happened. Perhaps I'll allude to Gandhi or something.

The authors of the Bible did not have the luxury of hindsight when writing their books. They wrote about things in the future, which are now confirmed by archeology.

You're not doing anything even remotely comparable by writing about things that we already know about today.

quote:Hundreds of years from now, when everyone is claiming that this is simply a myth perpetuated by bored youths in the early 21st century, believers can point out the verses that allude to Gandhi and say, "Aha! The verses on Gandhi have been proven to be true! It follows that the rest of this document is true!"

Our current technology would prevent any book you could ever write from being the originating source of information on a singular event or the life of a single famous person, from which all other physical evidence confirmation would be found.

No such technology existed during the time the Bible was written, which is why it is a miraculous book. For example, the Bible was the only source that inferred there was a civilization known as the "Hittites". For a long time the world believed them to be a myth or a legend, and atheists used the lack of evidence for such a civilization as fodder against Christians. Then their civilization was finally discovered in Bogazkoy, Turkey.

There are several other examples of events and people mentioned in the Bible that were not mentioned in any other historical texts, and were presumed myth or legend. They have all been confirmed by archeological digs.

quote:Perhaps some of the books of the Bible were written like this, I don't know. However, the claim that I encounter most often is "The Bible was written by over 40 people from many walks of life and contains no contradictions. Ordinary men could not do this, thus the Bible is divinely inspired." This experiment aims to shatter that myth.

The books of the Bible were not written at the same time, nor were they kept together for the better part of their existence. Some books of the New Testament were "lost" for long periods of time, and later found.

The Bible was written by over 40 authors, from many different geographical locations and times in history. They did not all live close to each other, and most didn't even live at the same time as the other authors.

In spite of all this, the Bible managed to come together into the complete and inerrant work of literary perfection that it is today. THAT is what makes it amazing, aside from the actual content.

You will never succeed in shattering anything to do with the Bible. As has been previously noted, this is an act of futility. It is interesting, I agree, and it will be fun to see what you guys come up with, but if you cannot replicate the conditions that the Bible was written under, there is really no point in this experiment.

quote:Every piece of literature has been written differently. It is impossible to duplicate the exact writing process for a given book, especially one with a history as rich as that of the Bible. However, you must realize that is not what we aim to do. We simply aim to demonstrate that there is nothing special about 40 people contributing to a book.

As many lovers of science here can tell you, an experiment like this would require exact replication of the conditions involved during the creation of the Bible. Otherwise, no comparison can be made. Anything you produce outside of replicating the exact conditions will prove abolutely nothing, especially not what you are attempting to accomplish.

By even admitting that you all do not have the ability to replicate the rich history exhibited in the Bible, you prove that this experiment will never be successful.

Of course there is nothing special about 40 people writing a book...except 40 people didn't just sit around writing a book a couple thousand years ago. God inspired 40 different people, from many different regions (separated by thousands of miles, in most cases), to write about people and things that had not yet happened at the time the author was writing them (prophecies). Of course, I am leaving out all the other amazing things about the Bible, but I think you get my point.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 08-09-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

Here we go! Check 101 Contradictions Online for a copy of this document and sources"

Tsk, tsk...plagiarizing again (http://islamway.com/english/images/library/contradictions.htm), I see.

When will you atheists start attacking Abrahim for this ? I'd never hear the end of it, if I was caught doing something like this...twice...in one week.

quote:Originally posted by Graemy:

DS you mean prophecies that were written in the bible and then fufilled in the bible. there has never been a dig where they confirmed a prophecy.

Haha...ignorance is bliss.

quote:we don't know each other. we don't know each others real names

You are collaborating on a project with the express purpose of immitating another work of literature. Already you have violated the premise of the experiment, which is to prove that the Bible is nothing special, and could be written by 40 different people.

Moses didn't know any of the New Testament authors...why ? Because he was dead by the time their great, great, great grandparents were even a twinkle in their parents' eye. Not knowing the names, or even that they would exist, kind of refutes your very elementary argument.

Sorry, but this experiment fails.

quote:Originally posted by RogueEagle91:

so, with your obviously extensive knowledge of how the bible was produced, will you be writing your own chapters? surely we could use the input of one as enlightened as yourself. http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

Of course not. I am a Christian, and the requirements of this experiment are that ATHEISTS write it. Way to follow instructions there, champ. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Graemy:

Papyrus was used by the ancient egyptians. During Rome's age they had paper from china(courtesy of the silk roads)

Rome existed during the time of Moses ? That's news to me.

Oh, I believe that would be a burn....

quote:Originally posted by Raw_Power:

Ad Hom Hypocrite.

How am I a hypocrite ?

Nice Argumentum Ad Hominem, there...hypocrite. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Clarphimous:

Oh, for the list, don't count on me to participate. Because I probably won't in the end.

Honesty is a virtue !

quote:Originally posted by IanBoyd3:

I need a name for a planet, and a species of aliens really quick. The name doesn't influence anything, but I'm just not good at making up names at all, and I don't want my shitty name to stick through the whole thing.

If you were inspired by a supernatural being, you'd have no problem writing about things that had never before been written about.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

quote:Originally posted by IanBoyd3:

My email program kind of blows, and there are a lot of email addresses, so I think it would be okay if we actually just posted all the stories here, on one condition:

No collaborating.

Ok?

Ok.

quote:Once I post the first story, the next person will write the next chapter, but with no help from any one else on here.

The fact that anyone could read your portion of the story and either add to it, or inject parts of it into THEIR own portion of the story would be....an act of collaboration.

This experiment fails.

quote:Restrict all comments to "Good job" "Bad job" etc etc.

I should have it in a few days.

Paul was not able to tell King David that Psalms was "good" or "bad"...why ? Because King David was dead, long before Paul existed.

quote:Originally posted by IanBoyd3:



Oh, right, I forgot, how silly of me.

Make sure that your stories contain many incredibly vague statements and just lots of generic nonsense. Then, when everyone writes the next chapter, make sure to look back at the 'prophecies' and make them come true when you make up the new story.

Go to this site:

http://winace.andkon.com/proph4dums/

It's called prophecy for dummies and it's pretty good.

So basically, throw in lots of silly gibberish and generic statements, and then go back and try to make some of them fit when you write your new story.

It's incredibly easy to make the vague and generic prophecies of the bible, and we could even make them more specific given the fact that we are completely making up stories, just like the bible writers.

So yea, have at it, and I'll try to get the first story done sometime, although I'm still debating exactly how to do it.

If any of you have some really good idea for the first story, though, you can write it if you want. I actually have to go out of town again in a week though so I will probably just write the first book myself and then start off the email chain.

Only a person who has never read the Bible would ever claim it was full of generic, vague gibberish.

The Bible isn't full of stories. It is an account of the history of mankind, starting with the first, Adam. The genealogies are intricate and precise, all the way down to Jesus.

Again, if you had even half an inkling what you were talking about, you wouldn't even be attempting to do this.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Only a person who has never read the Bible would ever claim it was full of generic, vague gibberish.

The Bible isn't full of stories. It is an account of the history of mankind, starting with the first, Adam. The genealogies are intricate and precise, all the way down to Jesus.

Again, if you had even half an inkling what you were talking about, you wouldn't even be attempting to do this.



Awww...Dig, you spoiled the fun.. we could have pointed these things out after they took the time to write. And the lessons might have been abundant...

Oh well, they will most likely ignore you anyway.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)



Edited because i forgot to put my name/password in and when i hit "back" and entered them and then hit "submit now" it erased what i typed.... ooooops



[This message has been edited by xtreem5150ahm (edited 08-09-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by IanBoyd3:

I'm not really seeing your point on the whole strawman thing. It doesn't say "all." Mainstream scientists reached a consensus that evolution was obviously true years ago. Sure, you may find a few here and there (although there credentials may be doubtful) who disagree, but again, if most of them do, and there is consensus, then it is fair to say that 'mainstream scientists...'

Are you admitting that it was an after the fact prophecy? I'm not really getting your objection.



Let me rephrase...

According to the site that phrophecy-for-dummies cited, the dating of the Book of Mark is between AD 80- AD 100.... which is 10 to 30 years after the temple was destoyed in AD 70... if Mainstream scholars accept the dating, then they concede that it was written after the prophecy was fulfilled... simple math there.

However, that says nothing about whether Jesus made the claim that the temple would be destroyed. If Jesus did make the claim (as i believe He did), then it would have been made before it was destroyed, since His death (and resurrection) was decades before the Temple destruction.



If you still dont understand me, let me know... i have a true story for you that might be able to illustrate this, but i dont have the time right now to write it...

... gotta get ready for work...

johnny

If there is archeological evidence care to provide it and the scripture it refers to?

oh, and it is so hard to make a fake family tree(which only appears in Mathew's book) and connect a bunch of short stories together. http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)





[This message has been edited by Raw_Power (edited 08-09-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Tsk, tsk...plagiarizing again (http://islamway.com/english/images/library/contradictions.htm), I see.

When will you atheists start attacking Abrahim for this ? I'd never hear the end of it, if I was caught doing something like this...twice...in one week.

Can you please read the list. I'm sure you'll be able to swiftly refute many of them, I'm more concerned about any that might not be so easy to refute.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Rome existed during the time of Moses ? That's news to me.

Oh, I believe that would be a burn....

No, but you were specifically talking about the New Tetament in your post.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

[B] You are collaborating on a project with the express purpose of immitating another work of literature. Already you have violated the premise of the experiment, which is to prove that the Bible is nothing special, and could be written by 40 different people.

Moses didn't know any of the New Testament authors...why ? Because he was dead by the time their great, great, great grandparents were even a twinkle in their parents' eye. Not knowing the names, or even that they would exist, kind of refutes your very elementary argument.

Hmm. We aren't collaborating we are talking about what needs to be done before we start writing like find out the point of this experiment.

I don't know IanBoyd...Why? because he lives probably hundreds of miles from me. Oh yea Moses didn't Write any of the books. The stories were first passed down orally for literally thousands of years until the jews were captured by the babylonians.

[QOUTE]Haha...ignorance is bliss[/QUOTE]

So you are just going to attack me instead of refuting my comments? where have they Commenced with an Archeological dig and proved a prophecy in the bible? All the prophecies in the bible were either Fufilled in the bible, Very vague statements that could apply to anything so vague that i could dig in my back yard and "prove" a biblical prophecy, or Concerning the end of the world

quote:Originally posted by IanBoyd3:



Once I post the first story, the next person will write the next chapter, but with no help from any one else on here.

Restrict all comments to "Good job" "Bad job" etc etc.

I should have it in a few days.

Everyone will have to remember which place they were in the line, it would help if everyone numbered their chapter. Also, maybe you should start a seperate thread for the actual book, I wouldn't like it to be interupted by this argument that everyone seems to be having with Digital_Savior, it would be both annoying and possibly confusing.

I would be happy to write a chapter or two.

However I suggest we create the following conditions:

Any contributor must have some knowledge of biblical text, be it the old or new testament.

I think the idea of a parody is stupid, as parodies are generally tossed off as meaningless cheap shots. Instead, we should write out own religious text, somewhat completely different than that of the bible, and follow up by posting it on internet. Who knows, maybe people will believe in it in the future?

Because of this, we must write in modern english...

We must also base anecdotes on recent events, however greatly exaggerating any statistics.

We must make sure the entire story offers some security to the reader, IE makes the reader want to believe it's true (think of DnD... the difficulty roll for a lie is lower when the person is enticed in some way to believing the story)

It must be a way of enforcing morals that 'make society a better place'

It must, of course, be fun to read, and interesting.

It must reinforce actions that people enjoy anyways, as people often give more credit to sources that agree with them.



If all rules are followed, I can GUARANTEE that in a few hundred years it will be it's own religion.

However, since science is modernising, it cannot directly oppose anything proven scientifically. Anything made up must exist in a different dimension of some sorts, inaccessible to man. Anything else must loosely follow science.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:



If Jesus did make the claim (as i believe He did), then it would have been made before it was destroyed, since His death (and resurrection) was decades before the Temple destruction.



... something which cannot be confirmed at all, since it is the very Gospel of Mark claiming that Jesus predicted the events. That's circular logic, in fact.

That's not a strawman on part of the article. What the article is pointing out is that since Mark wrote the Gospel afterwards (according to many historians) it is an easy way to produce a "prediction"; they of course imply that this was the case, but at worse, if Jesus did in fact manage to predict what would happen to the temple before hand, that would make the example being used a wrong one, not a strawman.

I vote we ignore digital saviour until this project is done. she seems to be trying her best to derail our holy project.

Does someone want to post the first chapter.

IanBoyd3 will post the first chapter, then I'm assuming he will be followed by Beta69. It would be easier if we followed the order of the list and numbered the chapters

i agree with the two people above me. lets ignore DS, and follow the list in order.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

Can you please read the list. I'm sure you'll be able to swiftly refute many of them, I'm more concerned about any that might not be so easy to refute.

Not until you apologize for calling me a liar, a blasphemer, and then attempting to discredit my own Holy text with crap you didn't write yourself...an especially egregious act for a person who has never read said Holy text.

I could easily refute every single item on that list. That is no challenge to me.

quote:Posted by Graemy:

No, but you were specifically talking about the New Tetament in your post.

I was also talking about the Old Testament.

Read CAREFULLY:

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Moses didn't know any of the New Testament authors...why ? Because he was dead by the time their great, great, great grandparents were even a twinkle in their parents' eye. Not knowing the names, or even that they would exist, kind of refutes your very elementary argument.[/b]

Moses was an Old Testament author. I was referring to HIS books. He didn't have the luxury of collaborating with the authors of New Testament books when he wrote the Torah.

quote:Hmm. We aren't collaborating we are talking about what needs to be done before we start writing like find out the point of this experiment.

Collaboration (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/collaboration)

1. To work together, especially in a joint intellectual effort.

Do you understand how ridiculous your argument is ? You are collaborating. The authors of the Bible did not collaborate. Your experiment fails.

quote:I don't know IanBoyd...Why? because he lives probably hundreds of miles from me. Oh yea Moses didn't Write any of the books. The stories were first passed down orally for literally thousands of years until the jews were captured by the babylonians.

You know him, because you are talking to him online. You are asking him questions, and discussing the methods by which you intend to write your portion of the story. You will see his portion, which you can then use to create your own. Your experiment fails.

Moses certainly did author the Torah. http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

The oral law, otherwise known as the Talmud, is something entirely different. Nice try.

quote:So you are just going to attack me instead of refuting my comments? where have they Commenced with an Archeological dig and proved a prophecy in the bible? All the prophecies in the bible were either Fufilled in the bible, Very vague statements that could apply to anything so vague that i could dig in my back yard and "prove" a biblical prophecy, or Concerning the end of the world

I didn't attack you. You're ignorant. It's a fact.

So ignorant, in fact, that I refuse to hold your hand through this. This thread is about a retarded experiment, whose conditions have already been violated by the very person conducting the experiment.

quote:Originally posted by piewalker101:

Everyone will have to remember which place they were in the line, it would help if everyone numbered their chapter. Also, maybe you should start a seperate thread for the actual book, I wouldn't like it to be interupted by this argument that everyone seems to be having with Digital_Savior, it would be both annoying and possibly confusing.

I guess the authors of the Bible never had any distractions...like Roman soldiers hunting them down and throwing them in jail (Paul), or fighting major wars against the Philistines (King David), or being thrown into a cave to be eaten by lions (Daniel)...something tells me the little bit of distraction you are experiencing here is nothing compared to the trials and tribulations experienced by the authors of the Bible. Besides, you don't have to read our comments here. Write your story.

quote:Originally posted by Kune:

I vote we ignore digital saviour until this project is done. she seems to be trying her best to derail our holy project.

Does someone want to post the first chapter.

Aw, don't be hatin' just because I operate on logic, and you don't.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

I didn't attack you. You're ignorant. It's a fact.

So ignorant, in fact, that I refuse to hold your hand through this. This thread is about a retarded experiment, whose conditions have already been violated by the very person conducting the experiment.

no you called me ignorant that is an attack instead of trying to refute my claims. you are assuming i am ignorant and you are better and not ignorant. that is an attack.

quote:I was also talking about the Old Testament.

Read CAREFULLY:

oh whats this:

quote:Ian, you also forgot the part where none of the New Testament authors knew any of the Old Testament authors...and the Bible was written over a period of 1600-2000 years. You need to write your story on papyrus, using quills. If you screw up, you have to start over. The whole thing.

try using the post that i was refuting please.

quote:1. To work together, especially in a joint intellectual effort.

Do you understand how ridiculous your argument is ? You are collaborating. The authors of the Bible did not collaborate. Your experiment fails.

but see, when they were writing their section, they knew the point of why they were writing. that is what we are establishing. some people are trying to collaborate.

quote:You know him, because you are talking to him online. You are asking him questions, and discussing the methods by which you intend to write your portion of the story. You will see his portion, which you can then use to create your own. Your experiment fails.

Moses certainly did author the Torah.

The oral law, otherwise known as the Talmud, is something entirely different. Nice try.

the people who wrote the bible read or heard the parts before it. that is why in the Council of Nicea, they threw some out because they weren't accurate.

i think that scholars have something else to say about who wrote the torah http://tinyurl.com/nbt2s



[This message has been edited by Graemy (edited 08-09-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Of course not. I am a Christian, and the requirements of this experiment are that ATHEISTS write it. Way to follow instructions there, champ. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

yeah, i'm terrible with rules. i mean, there's no way i saw a buddhist offer their help on the first fucking page.

Here's a tidbit of prophecy..

The destruction of Tyre was prophesied in Ezekiel 26:3-4, which was written approximately 640 B.C.E. Tyre was destroyed by Alexander the Great in 322 B.C.E., approximately 318 years after it was prophecied. Source (http://tinyurl.com/l39bh)

Tyre's destruction was prophesied by yet another prophet, Zechariah, in chapter 9, verse 4. Zechariah was written between 586 to 538 B.C.E., which means it was written 264 to

216 years before it happened.

Alexander the Great, and Greece, were prophecied in Daniel 8:20, which was also written in approximately 640 B.C.E.

In the Daniel prophecy, Alexander was prophecied as dying unexpectedly, and the Greek empire was divided into four parts, headed by one of Alexander's four Generals.

Ezekiel 26:3-5 - Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Tyrus, and will cause many nations to come up against thee, as the sea causeth his waves to come up. 4 And they shall destroy the walls of Tyrus, and break down her towers: I will also scrape her dust from her, and make her like the top of a rock. 5 It shall be a place for the spreading of nets in the midst of the sea: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD: and it shall become a spoil to the nations. 6 And her daughters which are in the field shall be slain by the sword; and they shall know that I am the LORD.

Daniel 8:20-21 - The ram which thou sawest having [two] horns [are] the kings of Media and Persia. 21 And the rough goat [is] the king of Grecia: and the great horn that [is] between his eyes [is] the first king.

Daniel 8:22 - Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

Zechariah 9:3-4 - And Tyrus did build herself a strong hold, and heaped up silver as the dust, and fine gold as the mire of the streets. 4 Behold, the Lord will cast her out, and he will smite her power in the sea; and she shall be devoured with fire.

That's just one prophecy...actually, two. the destruction of Tyre, and the existence of a great King (Alexander the Great) that would destroy it.

quote:Originally posted by RogueEagle91:

yeah, i'm terrible with rules. i mean, there's no way i saw a buddhist offer their help on the first fucking page.

They aren't my rules...IanBoyd seems to have no problems with breaking his own rules, but I won't.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

They aren't my rules...IanBoyd seems to have no problems with breaking his own rules, but I won't.

oh, dear. i must be off to cry now.

well i prophecize that one day there will be a great general and he will destroy the white house.

that is true too. saying something will last forever is arrogant. some one at one point and time will destroy the White house. and Daniel 8:20-21 refers to the Ram(which is supposed to be Alexander or the hellenistic empire) in plural. wasn't there only one Alexander the Great?

He wasn't breaking his own rules. since he created them he can change them.

DS get this:

The Book of Daniel was written in second Century BC therefore if it is to be interpreted as Alexander's empire this would be an example of "after the fact prophesy". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Daniel#Antiochus_IV_Epiphanes

As for Tyre "It was often attacked by Egypt, besieged by Shalmaneser V, who was assisted by the Phoenicians of the mainland, for five years, and by Nebuchadnezzar (586–573 BC) for thirteen years" therefore Ezekial and Zechariah 's prophesy was just a "prediction" or a lucky guess since they lived during that time.(Ezekiel was originally written in the 25 year period between 593 to 571 B.C)

Now, back to the project...

[This message has been edited by hespeaks (edited 08-09-2006).]

quote:no you called me ignorant that is an attack instead of trying to refute my claims. you are assuming i am ignorant and you are better and not ignorant. that is an attack.

Sorry, but I have been studying the Bible a loooong time, and I can honestly say that you are painfully ignorant on the subject.

That's not an attack. It's fact.

quote:oh whats this:

try using the post that i was refuting please.

And if you had reading comprehension skills, you would notice that all I am saying there is that the New Testament authors did not know any of the Old Testament writers.

Later I say that the Old Testament authors did not have the luxury of seeing New Testament writings, not the other way around. I never claimed the authors of the New Testament didn't have some knowledge of the content of the Old Testament, however to what degree is questionable (aside from Mosaic Law), since the Tanakh was kept by the Pharisees and Saducees inside the temple. It was not freely distributed nor read by common Jews and Christians. The only Jew that could possibly claim to have seen Old Testament texts would have been Paul (Saul of Tarsus), because he had once been a Pharisee.

The authors of the New Testament didn't know the authors of the Old Testament and were not able to collaborate, whereas you guys know each other and are collaborating, from beginning to end.

The authors of the Old Testament didn't have the books of the New Testament to compare their writings to, which you all are planning to do here.

The books of both the Old and New Testaments were also not written in sequence. Job is one of the oldest books of the Bible, yet it is placed very late in the Bible.

Stop mixing these two statements up. Your experiment still fails.

quote:but see, when they were writing their section, they knew the point of why they were writing. that is what we are establishing. some people are trying to collaborate.

Who knew what point of what they were writing ? New Testament authors knew what point ?

quote:the people who wrote the bible read or heard the parts before it. that is why in the Council of Nicea, they threw some out because they weren't accurate.

First of all:

"The history [of the New Testament]...spans the first four centuries of Christianity, and was a long continuous process. It was not only a task of collecting, but also of sifting and rejecting. It was not the result of a deliberate decree by an individual or a council near the beginning of the Christian era. The collection of New Testament books took place gradually over many years by the pressure of various kinds of circumstances and influences, some external and others internal to the life of congregations. Different factors operated at different times and in different places. Some of the influences were constant, others were periodic; some were local, and others were operative where the Church had been planted." Source (http://www.ntcanon.org/)

Development of the Canon (http://www.ntcanon.org/table.shtml)

The majority of the books in the Bible come from the Old Testament, so it is not unfair to ask that you write the majority of the books for this experiment on papyrus, with a quill, which is about as close as you will come to copying the writing utensils of that age. The method of writing on papyrus was precise, and laborious. If any mistakes were made in spelling or artistry, the scroll was abandoned, and the process started over. It is important for this experiment to be equal in difficulty, because you are trying to prove that you can replicate the feat the Old and New Testament authors did in writing the entire Bible. Writing a couple of off-handed stories using a computer and an editing program after discussing and reading the other books is nothing like writing the Bible 4 thousand years ago. Therefore, the experiment fails.

quote:i think that scholars have something else to say about who wrote the torah http://tinyurl.com/nbt2s

Liberal Jews believe that. Conservative Jews, TRUE Jews, do not. Again, a basic comprehension derived from actually reading the Bible would show you how ignorant you are, and no amount of Googling is going to help you hold your fallacious position.

Your experiment FAILS.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:



Awww...Dig, you spoiled the fun..

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Here's a tidbit of prophecy..

The destruction of Tyre was prophesied in Ezekiel 26:3-4.

Like a broken clock thats right twice a day so to given time will a prophecy come true, Either by accidental forfillment or by purpose of one seeking to substanciate a written text or verbal boast. So then in my opinion only a prophet that can give dates and/or times can truely be thought of as correct otherwise your just guessing.

Sigh.

We are not collaborating on the actual content of the writing. No one has any idea what the story is yet, and we are not discussing it.

And just so you know, we are seperated by thousands of miles, so I don't know why you brought that up.

The experiment is to see if it is difficult for a succession of 40 people to consecutively add stories to form a book, and have it be generally consistent.

I think it is easier, and we will do a better job then the bible, seeing as God breaks his own commandments many times and himself commits atrocities that make the holocause pale in comparison.

We are not collaborating on the story itself, and that is what the experiment is about. Yes, we are not going to waste 2000 years to allow people to die and then new people to add new chapters, but if you are being rational you can see that it is irrelevant to the experiment.

I will try to finish it sometime tonight, but I can't be sure. Band of Brothers comes on in 15 minutes, and hell, it's a good series. I have a tv next to the computer though so I will write during the commercials and whatnot.

Anyway, DS, if your bible is so consistent, are you a genesis 1 creationist or a genesis 2 creationist? They are not logically compatible, so it's one or the other. I'm interested in how exactly you have tried to reconcile the contradictory chapters in your mind.



EDIT: I still need a damn name for the aliens. It's irrelevant to the story, but any name I come up with is gonna be silly.

[This message has been edited by IanBoyd3 (edited 08-09-2006).]

“It is widely accepted that the Gospel accounts were influenced by the Old Testament. In particular, many quotations attributed to the Q document, which the Gospels attribute to Jesus, find parallels in several places of the Old Testament”.

By 150, there were hundreds of texts in existence, some of which were in contradiction with each other. By the 4th Century, Constantine I, in an attempt to re-establish one empire with a unifying religion to back it up, felt that there should be a consensus as to what books should be the basis for this religion. Thus, the Council of Nicea’s primary objective was to create only one Christian creed . Once settled, the Nicene Creed banned Arias and his fellow Arians as heretics and the need for a common scripture became more pronounced. Then came the “Era of the Ecumenical Councils” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_canon#Era_of_the_Seven_Ecumenical_Council s

In the 5th Century, the western Catholic Church (Since the Eastern would dispute it) would canonize the New Testament with the Apocrypha. In addition, even this continued to be in dispute in later centuries (Council of Trent, etc)

As for your pouting on why we’re not writing in parchment or etc… If you do not like the experiment just don’t join.

quote:Originally posted by IanBoyd3:

I still need a damn name for the aliens. It's irrelevant to the story, but any name I come up with is gonna be silly.

You could always assume their names were unpronounceable by human language and just type a symbol.

Or call them Jhegwahs. It's irrelevant, right?

quote:Originally posted by hespeaks:

DS get this:

The Book of Daniel was written in second Century BC therefore if it is to be interpreted as Alexander's empire this would be an example of "after the fact prophesy".

Right. I'm going to believe Wikipedia over the Christian Study Center. http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

Big surprise: "This conclusion was first drawn by the philosopher Porphyry of Tyros, a third century pagan Neoplatonist whose fifteen-volume work Against the Christians is only known to us through Jerome's reply."

"He wrote a long work of fifteen books criticizing the Christians; but it was ordered burned by Emperors Valentinian III and Theodosius II in 448, and only fragments remain." Source (http://www.san.beck.org/AB9-RomanTurmoil180-285.html)

I guess every time someone that doesn't believe in God says the Bible is wrong, they must be correct. http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

Try finding a more reliable source next time.

quote:Outside of the Pentateuch, no book of the OT has been subjected to as much scrutiny as the Book of Daniel. The detailed and accurate prophecies contained in that book have motivated many, skeptic and professed believer alike, to subscribe to the theory of a late date of composition for Daniel in the time of the Maccabees. Generally, the Maccabeean theory holds that the Book of Daniel was written around 168-165 BC. Most modern radical critics hold that the book was completed in its final form at that time, but some allow for parts of Daniel (mainly chapters 1-6) to have an earlier date prior to 168-165. Some say the editor in the 2nd century used certain traditions to compose the final form of Daniel. Others have said that the book has many authors (one scholar says that there were six authors). All of them agree, however, that the final form of the book was completed around 165 BC. We will show that such late date hypotheses are NOT indicated by the evidence.

Read the refutation of this ridiculous claim. (http://www.tektonics.org/af/danieldefense.html)

quote:As for Tyre "It was often attacked by Egypt, besieged by Shalmaneser V, who was assisted by the Phoenicians of the mainland, for five years, and by Nebuchadnezzar (586–573 BC) for thirteen years" therefore Ezekial and Zechariah 's prophesy was just a "prediction" or a lucky guess since they lived during that time.(Ezekiel was originally written in the 25 year period between 593 to 571 B.C)

Now, back to the project...

Nowhere in the prophesy is it said that Tyre would not be attacked several times BEFORE it's ultimate and final destruction. What has that got to do with anything ? In fact, God promises that MANY nations would battle with Tyre:

Ezekiel 26:3 - Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Tyrus, and will cause many nations to come up against thee, as the sea causeth his waves to come up.

Then, in verse 7, Nebuchadnezzer is given credit for the first major destruction of Tyre:

Ezekiel 26:7-9 - For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people. 8 He shall slay with the sword thy daughters in the field: and he shall make a fort against thee, and cast a mount against thee, and lift up the buckler against thee. 9 And he shall set engines of war against thy walls, and with his axes he shall break down thy towers.

Nebuchadnezzer destroyed the city, and they rebuilt on an island. Alexander the Great used the rubble of their previously destroyed city to build a causeway to the island, where he completely destroyed it.

quote:After taking Byblos and Sidon, he [Alexander] met serious resistance at Tyre, where he was refused entry into the island city. It was one of those obstinate sieges which often mark the history of the Semitic races. The Tyrians walled them-selves inside their island fortress. Alexander could not leave them to attack his rear and he could not attack by sea so he decided to build a land bridge, which still exists. He succeeded finally only after seven months, not on land but in a very brutal naval battle; the Tyrians fired red hot sand at Alexander's fleet. The storming of Tyre in July 332 When it fell, Alexander had the old Tyrian people scattered to the winds, 30,000 sold as slaves. Source (http://1stmuse.com/frames/index.html)

In fact, the specific method by which it was destroyed further solidifies the claims made in the prophecies.

I already gave the years when Ezekiel and Zechariah were written. You throwing out more dates does nothing to bolster your argument. You're going to have to do a hell of a lot better than, "they guessed" to disprove the historical accuracy of these prophecies. You think you have managed to discredit Daniel, but that still leaves Ezekiel and Zechariah, even if I were to agree that Daniel was written much later than I previously have shown, which I don't.

Sorry.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 08-10-2006).]

AngryFemme, sorry, love ! http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Pondskipper:

Like a broken clock thats right twice a day so to given time will a prophecy come true, Either by accidental forfillment or by purpose of one seeking to substanciate a written text or verbal boast. So then in my opinion only a prophet that can give dates and/or times can truely be thought of as correct otherwise your just guessing.

Ok, that was just too stupid to write a refutation to. Sorry, Pond...you know I love ya, but damn... *shakes head*

quote:Originally posted by IanBoyd3:

Sigh.

EDIT: I still need a damn name for the aliens. It's irrelevant to the story, but any name I come up with is gonna be silly.



Lets see

Gorganits (after small soldiers)

Yoganaries

Complistums

Cosen's

bakara :P

Argonians

Siliphite

DS I really to think that prophets are crap. And my posts do not require your input and are just my opinion as stated. As for the bible the only parts I deem as usefull are those statments/actions made by God or one whom came from his "realm" the rest could be made up by the catholics or some other sect along the way.

quote:Originally posted by hespeaks:

“It is widely accepted that the Gospel accounts were influenced by the Old Testament. In particular, many quotations attributed to the Q document, which the Gospels attribute to Jesus, find parallels in several places of the Old Testament”.

By 150, there were hundreds of texts in existence, some of which were in contradiction with each other. By the 4th Century, Constantine I, in an attempt to re-establish one empire with a unifying religion to back it up, felt that there should be a consensus as to what books should be the basis for this religion. Thus, the Council of Nicea’s primary objective was to create only one Christian creed . Once settled, the Nicene Creed banned Arias and his fellow Arians as heretics and the need for a common scripture became more pronounced. Then came the “Era of the Ecumenical Councils” [URL=http: //en.wikip edia.org/w iki/Biblic al_canon#E ra_of_the_ Seven_Ecum enical_Cou ncils]http://en.wiki pedia.org/ wiki/Bibli cal_canon# Era_of_the _Seven_Ecu menical_Co uncils[/UR L]

First of all, none of the Apostles had access to Old Testament documents. No common Jew did. A very basic understanding of Jewish history would prove that. The purpose of the Pharisees and the Saducees was to beat people over the head with the Tanakh. They found themselves to be superior in both education and understanding of God's word. they refused to allow anyone else outside of their elite circle to even be in the presence of the Tanakh, and they used it as a means to control the Jews, forcing them to pay even to enter the temple to receive trivial bits of information from the Tanakh, delivered to them by the Pharisees and Saducees.

Knowing basic information from the Old Testament does not give one enough to write books that would seem to fulfill Messianic prophecy. There were hundreds of prophecies about the Messiah. Without having personally read the Tanakh itself, none of the writers of the New Testament would have been able to tailor their books to specifically mold Jesus into the role of Messiah.

Second, I don't need your elementary level history lesson. I know very well what happened at the Council of Nicea.

quote:In the 5th Century, the western Catholic Church (Since the Eastern would dispute it) would canonize the New Testament with the Apocrypha. In addition, even this continued to be in dispute in later centuries (Council of Trent, etc)

If you had actually read the links I provided, the information on how the NT came to be the way it is today is all included. It had very little to do with Constantine and the Council of Nicea.

quote:As for your pouting on why we’re not writing in parchment or etc… If you do not like the experiment just don’t join.

Oh, I'm not pouting. I find this rather amusing, actually.

I just think that if you want to make an honest attempt at performing the kind of magnificent task the writers of the Bible did, you have to replicate as much of the conditions as possible.

If you can't, no logical or sound comparison can be made. *shrugs*

quote:Originally posted by Pondskipper:

DS I really to think that prophets are crap. And my posts do not require your input and are just my opinion as stated. As for the bible the only parts I deem as usefull are those statments/actions made by God or one whom came from his "realm" the rest could be made up by the catholics or some other sect along the way.

My well documented and logical defense of prophecy didn't require your input, either.

Your very limited understanding of the Bible and it's creation excludes you from making any valid arguments against it.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Nowhere in the prophesy is it said that Tyre would not be attacked several times BEFORE it's ultimate and final destruction. What has that got to do with anything ? In fact, God promises that MANY nations would battle with Tyre:

Ezekiel 26:3 - Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Tyrus, and will cause many nations to come up against thee, as the sea causeth his waves to come up.

Then, in verse 7, Nebuchadnezzer is given credit for the first major destruction of Tyre:

Ezekiel 26:7-9 - For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people. 8 He shall slay with the sword thy daughters in the field: and he shall make a fort against thee, and cast a mount against thee, and lift up the buckler against thee. 9 And he shall set engines of war against thy walls, and with his axes he shall break down thy towers.

Nebuchadnezzer destroyed the city, and they rebuilt on an island. Alexander the Great used the rubble of their previously destroyed city to build a causeway to the island, where he completely destroyed it.





You left out the rest of the bible quote. A little dishonest, eh?

The whole thing is this:

For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: From the north I am going to bring against Tyre Nebuchadnezzar [a] king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses and chariots, with horsemen and a great army. 8 He will ravage your settlements on the mainland with the sword; he will set up siege works against you, build a ramp up to your walls and raise his shields against you. 9 He will direct the blows of his battering rams against your walls and demolish your towers with his weapons. 10 His horses will be so many that they will cover you with dust. Your walls will tremble at the noise of the war horses, wagons and chariots when he enters your gates as men enter a city whose walls have been broken through. 11 The hoofs of his horses will trample all your streets; he will kill your people with the sword, and your strong pillars will fall to the ground. 12 They will plunder your wealth and loot your merchandise; they will break down your walls and demolish your fine houses and throw your stones, timber and rubble into the sea. 13 I will put an end to your noisy songs, and the music of your harps will be heard no more. 14 I will make you a bare rock, and you will become a place to spread fishnets. You will never be rebuilt, for I the LORD have spoken, declares the Sovereign LORD.



Which actually says specifically that it will never be rebuilt. At this point I really have to ask, what the hell is wrong with you?

The verse immediately after the last one you quoted says it will never be rebuilt, yet you say that they rebuilt it and this is supposed to fulfill the prophecy.

I'm having trouble imagining what exactly goes through your head when you are reading things like this.

First scholars don’t assume anything because someone said it. They use “evidence”, something that you utterly lack. And I doubt that you should use a web site that itself is bias (Christian)

juvenile and even discounts Mormonism (yes I browsed the site a bit) as a refutation.

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>

<LI>A point is that Daniel's history of the Exile and the fall of Babylon is at odds with known historical facts. In addition, he appears to be confused about details of the reign of the Persian kings. In contrast to this, Daniel's record of the Greeks, and Antiochus in particular, is detailed and precisely accurate - up to a point. That point is 164 BCE. After this point, Daniel predicts further altercations between Antiochus and Ptolemey (the Egyptian king) which never took place. Common sense thus tells us that the book was written just before the death of Antiochus, during a severe persecution of the Jewish people.

<LI>Daniel records that the Babylonian Empire fell to a certain king by the name of Darius, a Mede. (5:31, 9:1). Neither the Babylonian nor the Persian histories record such a person. Herodotus, who wrote his history about 440 BCE, records that Babylon fell to the Persian army, under the control of King Cyrus. Darius the Mede is never mentioned. In fact, the Median kingdom was conquered and assimilated by Cyrus as early as 550 BCE, when he defeated Astyages, king of Media. There is good evidence that the person that Daniel imagined to be Darius the Mede was in fact Darius I Hystaspes, the king of Persia from 521 to 485 BCE. The author of Daniel, writing in the second century BCE, confused this king with his own creation, Darius the Mede.

<LI>For reasons that will become clear when the visions are examined, the best interpretation is that the silver kingdom is Media, the bronze is Persia, and the iron is Greece. http://www.2think.org/hundredsheep/bible/comment/daniel.shtml#6 for more

</UL>

“And I will cause the noise of thy songs to cease; and the sound of thy harps shall be no more heard. And I will make thee like the top of a rock: thou shalt be a place to spread nets upon; thou shalt be built no more: for I the LORD have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD. Then all the princes of the sea shall come down from their thrones, and lay away their robes, and put off their broidered garments: they shall clothe themselves with trembling; they shall sit upon the ground, and shall tremble at every moment, and be astonished at thee. And they shall take up a lamentation for thee, and say to thee, How art thou destroyed, that wast inhabited of seafaring men, the renowned city, which wast strong in the sea, she and her inhabitants, which cause their terror to be on all that haunt it!” (Excerpts from Ezekiel 26)

This never happened, as Tyre still exists in Lebanon and I am assuming the "princes of the sea" means the Leaders of Europe (Mediterranean Sea) didn’t cry for it yet lol and Tyre is today is the fourth largest city in Lebanon and one of the nation's major ports. So until it does, the prophesy is invalid. As I mentioned, the “prophets” who wrote this heard of Tyre’s war with Babylonia and therefore made a “prediction” just like if one would say that Israel would win the Middle East crisis and etc.

quote:I already gave the years when Ezekiel and Zechariah were written.

Which were incorrect.

N.B Try next time. Sorry.





[This message has been edited by hespeaks (edited 08-10-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Oh, I'm not pouting. I find this rather amusing, actually.

I just think that if you want to make an honest attempt at performing the kind of magnificent task the writers of the Bible did, you have to replicate as much of the conditions as possible.

If you can't, no logical or sound comparison can be made. *shrugs*

Logical? 40 people wrote a book by each adding successive chapters. If we do the same, and have less contradictions and inconsistencies, that's saying something, although you'll never admit it.

To respond to Ds' latest claims

quote:First of all, none of the Apostles had access to Old Testament documents. No common Jew did.

Explain me this then:

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>

<LI> The prophet Hosea (9:15): "For their evil deeds I will drive them from my house." Plus Zechariah (14:21): "No trader will be seen in the house of the Lord." Jesus drives the money changers from the Temple.

<LI> Psalm 42:5: "How deep I am sunk in misery, groaning in my distress." Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane.

<LI> Psalm 41:9:"Even the friend whom I trusted, who ate at my table, exults in my misfortune." The betrayal by Judas. Conflict with the Jewish establishment would have provided strong motivation for coming up with the figure of Judas to represent all hostile and unbelieving Jewry.

<LI> Isaiah 53:12: "And he was numbered with the transgressors." Jesus is crucified between two thieves.

<LI> Psalm 22:18: "They divided my garments among them, and for my raiments they cast lots." The soldiers gamble for Jesus' clothes at the foot of the cross.

<LI> This is the story modern scholars have characterized as The Suffering and Vindication of the Innocent Righteous One. We find it in the story of Joseph in Genesis; in Isaiah 53 with its Suffering Servant; in Tobit, Esther, Daniel, 2 and 3 Maccabees, Susanna, the story of Ahiqar, the Wisdom of Solomon

</UL>

"Jesus is presented in a way that often has strong parallels with significant Old Testament figures. Most noticeable are the similarities with Moses, whose birth narrative and sojourn in the wilderness as a youth are alleged by textual critics to have been the basis from which Matthew derived its account of the nativity of Jesus, rather than Matthew basing it on the actual events of the birth of Jesus." (Wikipedia)

As for your assertion on biblical canonization:

Your site is incomplete. Since you are so sure of your history, if it was not for Constantine’s making Christianity legal, his insistence that one creed and one codified text should be used, (the Council of Nicea, Six years after Nicaea (331), Constantine commissioned Eusebius to create an official Christian Bible-Wikipedia) then the canonization of the bible wouldn’t occur. Since differing authorities such as Arius, Marcion etc disagreed greatly on its contents and still differ, such as the Orthodox Church and Protestants, the latter, which does not include the Apocrypha.

So I guess we have to write in Hebrew, and plagiarize from other religions in order to replicate that “magnificent” text. http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)



[This message has been edited by hespeaks (edited 08-10-2006).]

Alright, I've pretty much got the first book written. I've decided to do it by email though to completely avoid collaboration of any kind.

DS will object no matter what the hell we do, but this way no one even knows the damn story until it's time for them to write, so the experiment is valid.

Anyway, I need a volunteer to write the next chapter and an email address so we can get this started.

Alright actually jsaxton is doing the next chapter, so when he finishes we will need the next person, but the experiment is started, so let's hope it turns out well.

quote:A point is that Daniel's history of the Exile and the fall of Babylon is at odds with known historical facts.

What historical facts are you speaking of?

quote:In addition, he appears to be confused about details of the reign of the Persian kings. In contrast to this, Daniel's record of the Greeks, and Antiochus in particular, is detailed and precisely accurate - up to a point. That point is 164 BCE. After this point, Daniel predicts further altercations between Antiochus and Ptolemey (the Egyptian king) which never took place. Common sense thus tells us that the book was written just before the death of Antiochus, during a severe persecution of the Jewish people.

You are either going to have to post the website where you cut and pasted this information or provide verses that are inconsistent with historical fact. What you posted was too vague to even formulate an exegesis. So, please expound on the alleged discrepencies.

I do believe this was posted for your benefit by DS. You need to read it.

http://www.tektonics.org/af/danieldefense.html



quote:Daniel records that the Babylonian Empire fell to a certain king by the name of Darius, a Mede. (5:31, 9:1). Neither the Babylonian nor the Persian histories record such a person. Herodotus, who wrote his history about 440 BCE, records that Babylon fell to the Persian army, under the control of King Cyrus. Darius the Mede is never mentioned.

First of all, all of secular history recognizes the Darian lineage. In fact, there were three successions of Darius. And where are the transcripts of Herodotus that supposedly don't mention him? But, even in the unlikely event that the name "Darius" isn't mentioned, Hebrew names often take precedence in the Bible. For insatnce, Hammurabi is listed as Amraphel in the Bible but its the same person. All this aside, what does it have to do with the argument?

http://www .britannic a.com/eb/a rticle-9028778 (http: //www.brit annica.com /eb/articl e-9028778) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darius



“And I will cause the noise of thy songs to cease; and the sound of thy harps shall be no more heard. And I will make thee like the top of a rock: thou shalt be a place to spread nets upon; thou shalt be built no more: for I the LORD have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD. Then all the princes of the sea shall come down from their thrones, and lay away their robes, and put off their broidered garments: they shall clothe themselves with trembling; they shall sit upon the ground, and shall tremble at every moment, and be astonished at thee. And they shall take up a lamentation for thee, and say to thee, How art thou destroyed, that wast inhabited of seafaring men, the renowned city, which wast strong in the sea, she and her inhabitants, which cause their terror to be on all that haunt it!” (Excerpts from Ezekiel 26)

quote:This never happened, as Tyre still exists in Lebanon

Alright, try and follow the dialogue. Tyre was apart of the Phoenecian empire which is now situated in modern-day Lebanon. What you don't understand is that Tyre was the most affluent coastal city in the world at that time. It was a city for merchants and lots of commerce. What happened after the war was the ancient Phoenecian/Caananites of old, who were so mighty a nation, dissipated and disintegrated into nothing as a culture. A mass exodus of them fled all over the world. This was so thorough that Phoenecians, who presumably had their own race, have been swamped in the gene pool to the point where it is virtually impossible to make a distinction for who descended from Phoenecian lineage except by blood test. Now, Tyre exists today, but it is not the vast empire, not even remotely close, to what it once was and the people who currently reside in Lebanon come from mostly Arabic and Syrian backgrounds. Anyone with Phoenecian blood almost certainly has also been consolidated by one or more races. Therefore, the only thing modern-day Lebanese have in common with Phoenecians is that they so happen to live in the same spot.







[This message has been edited by hyroglyphx (edited 08-10-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

[B] Liberal Jews believe that. Conservative Jews, TRUE Jews, do not. Again, a basic comprehension derived from actually reading the Bible would show you how ignorant you are, and no amount of Googling is going to help you hold your fallacious position.B]

Who are you to say who is a true jew or not. that is like saying protestants aren't christian and Mhayana practitioners aren't Buddhist.

you have me one my claim. but it doesn't matter that the old testament authors didn't have access to the New Testament because we are going to write it in order(from first to last) which means we won't either.

actually DS i have a question for you, Why are you trying so hard to stop us? I mean if you believe so hard that the bible was divinly inspired, then why do you care what we do? We aren't collaborating on the content, we are collaborating on the point. The Authors of the books that were written new the point because they already had it and tryed to convey it through their story.

i find this a good watch. http://tinyurl.com/qzylr Penn and Teller are funny to me.



[This message has been edited by Graemy (edited 08-10-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by IanBoyd3:

Alright, I've pretty much got the first book written. I've decided to do it by email though to completely avoid collaboration of any kind.

DS will object no matter what the hell we do, but this way no one even knows the damn story until it's time for them to write, so the experiment is valid.

Anyway, I need a volunteer to write the next chapter and an email address so we can get this started.

Not true. Write it under the same conditions the authors of the Bible did, and I've got no qualms.

quote:Originally posted by Graemy:

Who are you to say who is a true jew or not. that is like saying protestants aren't christian and Mhayana practitioners aren't Buddhist.

People who claim to belong to any religious sect should act according to the tenets of the sect.

In the end, it will not be up to us to judge, but we have powers of observation and discernment for a reason.

I would employ Sephiroth to explain the stark difference between a Liberal Jew and a Conservative Jew, as it is tremendous, but his computer is not working at the moment. Perhaps someday soon, our resident Jewish authority will take the time to explain it.

quote:you have me one my claim. but it doesn't matter that the old testament authors didn't have access to the New Testament because we are going to write it in order(from first to last) which means we won't either.

It does matter. That you don't see why shows that you are ignorant of what it would take to actually write a comparable book.

quote:actually DS i have a question for you, Why are you trying so hard to stop us? I mean if you believe so hard that the bible was divinly inspired, then why do you care what we do? We aren't collaborating on the content, we are collaborating on the point. The Authors of the books that were written new the point because they already had it and tryed to convey it through their story.

i find this a good watch. http://tinyurl.com/qzylr

I actually haven't tried to stop you at all. I made a humorous post, showing how ridiculously difficult it would be to replicate a book of such perfection (see page 1), and I was relentlessly challenged, as if I do not know how the Bible was written.

I have also been challenged on my knowledge of it, it's accuracy, and various other things that had nothing to do with what I originally said, which was nothing more than the conditions under which the Bible was actually written.

By posting each part of the story, you are collaborating. Even if you do it in email, which IanBoyd is now saying he will do, it's a type of collaboration that the authors of the Bible never had.

There was no agreed upon point...the Old Testament authors didn't even know there was a point, beyond writing down what God had told them to. The entire point was not understood until the books of the New Testament were written. Only when read from cover to cover is the point of the Bible understood. I already explained the limited access the New Testament authors, aside from Paul, had to the Tanakh, so I don't know why you keep pretending they had read it.

I just think if you guys are going to make a concerted effort to prove how easy it would be to replicate a book like the Bible, you should at least ATTEMPT to replicate the conditions under which it was written.

Do what you want, but it won't prove anything. *shrugs*

BTW, I don't click on links I cannot identify. Wolfinsheepsclothing taught me the hard way...*mumbles*

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 08-10-2006).]

Are you guys picking on this thread because you lost in Origins and Civil Liberties?

I hate to say it, but you are the most dishonest person I have met on totse, and you're meant to be a Christian. You leave out parts of Bible quotes, ignore facts, etc. You suck, Digi.

Also, I love how you just ignore the two posts that easily destroy that little "prophecy" of yours.



[This message has been edited by Raw_Power (edited 08-10-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by IanBoyd3:

Logical? 40 people wrote a book by each adding successive chapters. If we do the same, and have less contradictions and inconsistencies, that's saying something, although you'll never admit it.

No, they didn't write each chapter in succession. As I already said, Job is one of the oldest books in the entire Bible...written BEFORE many of the books that dealt with events that happened AFTER the time of Job. That's just one example. I don't know where you've got this "they were written in succession" idea, but I'm pretty sure it came from your nether regions.

There aren't any contradictions or inconcsistencies in the Bible, only ignorance and misunderstanding on the part of the reader.

You won't end up "saying" anything, because you have not even remotely attempted to replicate the conditions under which the Bible was written. It is far too complex, and would take longer than the duration of your natural lives to accomplish.

But please, present us all with the finished product. Should be a good laugh.

quote:Originally posted by Raw_Power:

Are you guys picking on this thread because you lost in Origins and Civil Liberties?

Lost ? What was there to win ? Way to embrace maturity there, RP.

Also, I'm not picking on anything. I gave some conditions that should be met in order to successfully compose a comparable book, and I was challenged on a bunch of things that had nothing to do with what I said, or this thread.

Thank the overzealous ignorants for the direction this thread has taken.

quote:I hate to say it, but you are the most dishonest person I have met on totse, and you're meant to be a Christian. You leave out parts of Bible quotes, ignore facts, etc. You suck, Digi.

Show where I have been dishonest. Claiming I am dishonest proves nothing.

1. What Biblical scriptures have I left out ?

2. Which facts have I ignored ?

3. Why do you let me bother you so much ? http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

quote:Also, I love how you just ignore the two posts that easily destroy that little "prophecy" of yours.

Actually, while Hyro, my HUSBAND, was answering you guys, I was cooking. I made 4 meals tonight, which took about 5 hours. People like to call these kind of activities "real life". Perhaps you've heard of it ? Not to mention that while he's posting, I can't...because we only have one computer.

I doubt anyone destroyed anything, but I'm working my way up the page, so if I come across any attempts at diversion, strawman, or truth distortion, I will refute them accordingly.

quote:Originally posted by Graemy:

i find this a good watch. http://tinyurl.com/qzylr Penn and Teller are funny to me.

If this is the Penn and Teller episode "refuting" the Bible, I wasn't impressed. I've seen it a few times before, and their claims are so ridiculously ignorant, it doesn't surprise me that you would appreciate something like that.

Seriously..what do you have against reading the Bible ? It won't kill you. It might even save you ! http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

quote:Show where I have been dishonest. Claiming I am dishonest proves nothing.

1. What Biblical scriptures have I left out ?

2. Which facts have I ignored ?

3. Why do I annoy you so much?

1. In this very thread, you left out part of the prophecy that said the city would never be rebuilt, that refuted what you claimed was the prophecy fullfilled, considering the city was rebuilt. And there's no interpreting that, because you're a 'literalist'.

2. For you, and anyone else, who wants to know how ignorant you choose to be about facts, go read Origins and Civil Liberties.

3. Because you have the attitude of a pompous crackwhore.



[This message has been edited by Raw_Power (edited 08-10-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by IanBoyd3:

You left out the rest of the bible quote. A little dishonest, eh?

The whole thing is this:

For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: From the north I am going to bring against Tyre Nebuchadnezzar [a] king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses and chariots, with horsemen and a great army. 8 He will ravage your settlements on the mainland with the sword; he will set up siege works against you, build a ramp up to your walls and raise his shields against you. 9 He will direct the blows of his battering rams against your walls and demolish your towers with his weapons. 10 His horses will be so many that they will cover you with dust. Your walls will tremble at the noise of the war horses, wagons and chariots when he enters your gates as men enter a city whose walls have been broken through. 11 The hoofs of his horses will trample all your streets; he will kill your people with the sword, and your strong pillars will fall to the ground. 12 They will plunder your wealth and loot your merchandise; they will break down your walls and demolish your fine houses and throw your stones, timber and rubble into the sea. 13 I will put an end to your noisy songs, and the music of your harps will be heard no more. 14 I will make you a bare rock, and you will become a place to spread fishnets. You will never be rebuilt, for I the LORD have spoken, declares the Sovereign LORD.

I didn't need to post the whole thing. My original point was that Ezekiel and Zechariah prophesied that Tyre would be destroyed, and it was.

quote:Which actually says specifically that it will never be rebuilt. At this point I really have to ask, what the hell is wrong with you?]

There's nothing wrong with me, doll. There is a distinct difference between the prophecy of Nebuchadnezzar's destruction of Tyre in verses 3-12, and God's proclamation that in the end, Tyre will cease to exist, and will never be rebuilt. You will notice that verses 3-12 discuss what will be done to Tyre by Nebuchadnezzar's army, and beginning in verse 13, God speaks of Himself in the singular.

The distinction of perspective here is very telling. The promise is that Tyre will never be rebuilt, once God made Tyre like the top of a rock, a place to spread nets upon. That did not happen until the second destruction of Tyre, by the hands of Alexander the Great. Alexander completely demolished Tyre, whereas Nebuchadnezzar did not. The complete demolition, and subsequent disbandment of the peoples of Tyre by modes of slavery, matches the description of Alexander the Great's destruction of Tyre, not Nebuchadnezzar's.

quote:The verse immediately after the last one you quoted says it will never be rebuilt, yet you say that they rebuilt it and this is supposed to fulfill the prophecy.

I wasn't confused...but I am not surprised that you are.

quote:I'm having trouble imagining what exactly goes through your head when you are reading things like this.

That's because you lack something I have: years of experience studying the Bible. I don't hold it against you, but I do find it funny that you think you have the knowledge to question me.

Here's a hint on what goes through my head when I read incredibly prophetic scriptures like this: God is amazing !

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 08-10-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Raw_Power:

1. In this very thread, you left out part of the prophecy that said the city would never be rebuilt, that refuted what you claimed was the prophecy fullfilled, considering the city was rebuilt. And there's no interpreting that, because you're a 'literalist'.

I didn't "leave anything out". I gave the prophecy that Tyre would be destroyed. I wasn't trying to give the entire history of Tyre. I had to further expound on the TWO separate times Tyre was destroyed AFTER I presented my original point, because hespeaks (or whoever) questioned me.

It had nothing to do with leaving things out intentionally. The prophecy was that Tyre would be destroyed, and I showed several scriptures that prophesied that, at least 250 years prior to the actual occurence. That several attempts to sack Tyre prior to the prophesied events was irrelevant, as was Tyre's move from mainland to an island. That information was brought up later, because it was necessary to defend the questions of hespeaks.

quote:2. For you, and anyone else, who wants to know how ignorant you choose to be about facts, go read Origins and Civil Liberties.

A thread to which you provided nothing of consequence, and certainly nothing disproving ID. Way to ride the coattails of your more intelligent pagan counterparts.

All you did was attempt to insult me. I'm sure you're very proud of yourself for your "accomplishments".

quote:3. Because you have the attitude of a pompous crackwhore.

Not only is the contradiction in terms hilarious, but your attempt at an insult fails for lack of justification. Pray tell, how many pompous crackwhores do you know ?

Anyway, you completely missed the point of my question, AND you changed it. Why do you let me bother you so much ? You're giving me power over you, and you don't even know it. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

Changing the question doesn't change the fact that you are bothered by me, which means you care way too much about what I am saying. Get over it. Life is too short.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 08-10-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Actually, while Hyro, my HUSBAND, was answering you guys, I was cooking.

WOAH WOAH WOAH! HYRO IS YOUR HUSBAND!? THEEE HUSBAND?!

No, the prophecy was tyre would be destroyed, never to be rebuilt. And it was rebuilt.

It being attacked is relevant too, because if something continues to be attacked probability states that there's a good chance that at some point it is going to be demolished.

It was proven Intelligent Design isn't falsifiable and therefore not a scientific theory. This is what I mean when I say you ignore facts that you don't like. Also, thanks for the compliment. I'd rather be a 'pagan' than a pompous crackwhore. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)





[This message has been edited by Raw_Power (edited 08-10-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Raw_Power:

No, the prophecy was tyre would be destroyed, never to be rebuilt. And it was rebuilt.

It being attacked is relevant too, because if something continues to be attacked probability states that there's a good chance that at some point it is going to be demolished.

It was proven Intelligent Design isn't falsifiable and therefore not a scientific theory. This is what I mean when I say you ignore facts that you don't like. Also, thanks for the compliment. I'd rather be a 'pagan' than a pompous crackwhore. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)





pa·gan ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pgn)

n.

One who is not a Christian, Muslim, or Jew, especially a worshiper of a polytheistic religion.

One who has no religion.

A non-Christian.

A hedonist.

A Neo-Pagan.

adj.

Not Christian, Muslim, or Jewish.

Professing no religion; heathen.

Neo-Pagan.

hea·then ( P ) Pronunciation Key (hthn)

n. pl. hea·thens or heathen

One who adheres to the religion of a people or nation that does not acknowledge the God of Judaism, Christianity, or Islam.

Such persons considered as a group; the unconverted.

One who is regarded as irreligious, uncivilized, or unenlightened.

Such persons considered as a group.

crack ( P ) Pronunciation Key (krk)

v. cracked, crack·ing, cracks

v. intr.

To break or snap apart.

To make a sharp snapping sound.

To break without complete separation of parts; fissure: The mirror cracked.

To change sharply in pitch or timbre, as from hoarseness or emotion. Used of the voice.

To break down; fail: The defendant's composure finally began to crack.

To have a mental or physical breakdown: cracked under the pressure.

To move or go rapidly: was cracking along at 70 miles an hour.

Chemistry. To break into simpler molecules by means of heat.

whore ( P ) Pronunciation Key (hôr, hr)

n.

A prostitute.

A person considered sexually promiscuous.

A person considered as having compromised principles for personal gain.

intr.v. whored, whor·ing, whores

To associate or have sexual relations with prostitutes or a prostitute.

To accept payment in exchange for sexual relations.

To compromise one's principles for personal gain.

My Oxford dictionary states that 'pagan' can mean 'heathen', which can be used as an offensive term. She is using it in an offensive manner, she is clearly being Ad Hom, but she throws her bottle if anyone uses Ad Hom on her. That is why she is a hypocrite.

I have no problem if people use ad hom on me, that's not the problem. The problem is her telling people in threads not to use 'ad hom' in arguments, and then use it herself. She's a hypocrite.

And I didn't literally mean she is a pompous crackwhore, she has the attitude of one. IE, she's an utter bitch. I've met some very nice Christians in my time, and she is not one of them. In fact, she paints Christians as petty, hateful creatures, imo.

If God was real, which he is not, I'd feel sorry for him, because he must lose a lot of possible converts due to having bitches like her preaching.

[This message has been edited by Raw_Power (edited 08-10-2006).]

First the people of Tyre were Phoenicians, your advancing a race of Tyre separate from Phonecians is without merit.

You cannot put words in your supposed “prophet” mouth,. First he stated that the annihilation would be during Nebuchadnezzar’s time “Behold, I will bring upon Tyre from the north Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses, chariots, cavalry and a great army.”(Ezekial 26:7), Secondly, he never stated that only the power of the Phoenician Empire will descend rapidly, he rather explicitly stated “For thus says the Lord GOD, "When I make you a desolate city, like the cities which are not inhabited, when I bring up the deep over you and the great waters cover you, then I will bring you down with those who go down to the pit, to the people of old, and I will make you dwell in the lower parts of the earth, like the ancient waste places, with those who go down to the pit, so that you will not be inhabited; but I will set glory in the land of the living.” According to him no one should be in Tyre, it should resemble a desert by now. Thirdly “"I will bring terrors on you and you will be no more; though you will be sought, you will never be found again," declares the Lord GOD.”. Yeah I forgot to mention that “today is the fourth largest city in Lebanon and one of the nation's major ports. It has many ancient sites for tourism and its Roman Hippodrome was reportedly used for the film Ben-Hur. It was added to UNESCO's World Heritage list in 1979 (Resolution 459). You taking the Bible literally does pit you against history. But curiously "And from thence he arose, and went into the borders of Tyre and Sidon,..." (Mark 7:24).

quote:You are either going to have to post the website where you cut and pasted this information or provide verses that are inconsistent with historical fact. First of all, all of secular history recognizes the Darian lineage.

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>

<LI> In 539 BC Cyrus invaded Babylonia. A battle was fought at Opis in the month of June, where the Babylonians were defeated; and immediately afterwards Sippara surrendered to the invader…Cyrus now claimed to be the legitimate successor of the ancient Babylonian kings and the avenger of Bel-Marduk, (Wikipedia) Herodotus affirms this (The history of Herodotus — Volume 1). Daniel records that the Babylonian Empire fell to a certain king by the name of Darius, a Mede. (5:31, 9:1). Darius the Mede is never mentioned in history. In fact, the Median kingdom was conquered and assimilated by Cyrus as early as 550 BCE, when he defeated Astyages, king of Media. The problem with the Gobyras approach (quite aside from the fact that there is no historical reason to make such a connection) is that Darius is often addressed as "king" (Daniel 6:6, note the royal appelation "live forever"), and was said to have enacted laws throughout the whole kingdom (Daniel 6:8-9). Neither can be said to be true of a mere governor. Further, Gobyras was a Babylonian, not a Mede. Daniel may have been misled by the fact that the Old Testament only mentions four of the nine Persian kings - Cyrus (Ezra 1:1), Darius I (Ezra 4:5), Xerxes I (Ahasuerus - Ezra 4:6) and Artaxerxes I (Ezra 4:7). However the site presumes this approach. Thereis no reason that they would call Cyrus by another name since other “prophets” done the same” “I will rise up Cyrus [a] in my righteousness: I will make all his ways straight.

He will rebuild my city and set my exiles free, but not for a price or reward,

says the LORD Almighty (Isaiah 45:13)



<LI> The site uses assumed theories like the non-accession system. It may be seriously doubted that a non-accession-year system (in which the months between a king's accession and his Þrst new year are counted as his year 1) was in operation at this time in Judah. The best attested evidence for non-accession-year reckoning in Judah is associated with only a few decades in the ninth century bce, and it is almost universally agreed that accession-year reckoning must be presumed throughout the period under consideration here. http://www.shef.ac.uk/bibs/DJACcurrres/Postmodern1/Regnal.html http://www.shef.ac.uk/bibs/DJACcurrres/Postmodern1/Regnalfns.html (61)

<LI> It distorts facts such as the Belshazzar text. Indeed, while both Xenophon (Cyropaedia, 7.5.28-30) and Herodotus (The Histories, 1.191) recount the fall of Babylon to Cyrus the Great, neither gives the name of the king of Babylon after Nebuchadnezzar. Further, both Berossus’ and Ptolemy’s king lists have Nabonidus (Akk. Nabû-nā'id) as the last king of Babylon with no mention of Belshazzar. No known extrabiblical text indicates a blood relation between Nebuchadnezzar and Belshazzar. There were several rulers over Babylon between the death of Nebuchadnezzar and the rulership of Nabonidus/Belshazzar.. Since it is in a important historical nature, you cannot state that the terms for father and son means something symbolic.

</UL>

This is only a few, but goes to show that the site that you supplied is based on false assumptions, and you believed it to be true without question. Heh

N.B You trying to invalidate my arguments by stating that they were “copy and Pasted” is invalid. Your wife has copy and pasted many things and they were all refuted, including this one because they variated from the truth. Therefore, if you have an issue with the argument, attack the argument with fact, not avoid it with allegations of copy and pasting. And if you cannot, just don’t answer at all.





[This message has been edited by hespeaks (edited 08-10-2006).]

I have read the bible infact. i didn't like it. it was one of the reasons i converted to Buddhism. It didn't make sense to me.

Congrats on marrying Hyro though. how many years?

[This message has been edited by Graemy (edited 08-10-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by IanBoyd3:

Actually, one more thing.

Although this is technically collaborating, it is completely irrelevant to the actual project, and I suck at this.

I need a name for a planet, and a species of aliens really quick. The name doesn't influence anything, but I'm just not good at making up names at all, and I don't want my shitty name to stick through the whole thing.

Solaris, and the lunuxians. Or some other name I don't care.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

If you were inspired by a supernatural being, you'd have no problem writing about things that had never before been written about.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

Last time I checked that was called creativity.

Unless your suggesting that everyone who has ever thought of something new is inspired by the supernatural.

[This message has been edited by Aft3r ImaGe (edited 08-10-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

I guess the authors of the Bible never had any distractions...like Roman soldiers hunting them down and throwing them in jail (Paul), or fighting major wars against the Philistines (King David), or being thrown into a cave to be eaten by lions (Daniel)...something tells me the little bit of distraction you are experiencing here is nothing compared to the trials and tribulations experienced by the authors of the Bible. Besides, you don't have to read our comments here. Write your story.

Look, I wasn't attacking you, I was trying to get this argument out of the way rather than get involved. Having said that, I seriously doubt that Daniel was writing his book at the exact same time he was thrown to the lions.

quote:originally posted by IanBoyd3

Alright actually jsaxton is doing the next chapter, so when he finishes we will need the next person, but the experiment is started, so let's hope it turns out well.

Ian, please just follow the list, it would be so much easier. If you decide to ignore this, then I'll volunteer for chapter 3

EDIT: My email address again is piewalker101@hotmail.com

[This message has been edited by piewalker101 (edited 08-10-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by piewalker101:



Ian, please just follow the list, it would be so much easier. If you decide to ignore this, then I'll volunteer for chapter 3

EDIT: My email address again is piewalker101@hotmail.com



Not everyone on the list has given their email, and it's hard to know exactly who will respond right away. If no one volunteers, I'll use the list though.

Fair enough. Will the book be e-mailed back to you after each chapter or will it be passed straight on to the next volunteer?

quote:Originally posted by piewalker101:

Fair enough. Will the book be e-mailed back to you after each chapter or will it be passed straight on to the next volunteer?

Yea, I've read what jsaxton has written so far but I haven't made any suggestions or comments (other then good job).

This sounds like an awesome project and I'm totally on board. E-mail oreothecat_69@yahoo.com.

After the Council of Totse selects the Testament, it would be cool to keep the Apocrypha around to read as well.



[This message has been edited by AtomicZagnut (edited 08-11-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by jsaxton14:

I'm currently working full time and taking classes full time, so I have very little free time. However, all that changes after Thursday, August 3rd. So, at that point in time, I'd be willing to author a ~5-10 page book.

I think we should do a bit more research on the history of the Bible first. Were all the books in the Old Testament written chronologically? Or were they written by different authors in different places, then put together? Our experiment should try to model the evolution of the Bible as closely as possible.

Great idea, BTW.

Timeline of Bible Translation History

1,400 BC: The first written Word of God: The Ten Commandments delivered to Moses.

500 BC: Completion of All Original Hebrew Manuscripts which make up The 39 Books of the Old Testament.

200 BC: Completion of the Septuagint Greek Manuscripts which contain The 39 Old Testament Books AND 14 Apocrypha Books.

1st Century AD: Completion of All Original Greek Manuscripts which make up The 27 Books of the New Testament.

315 AD: Athenasius, the Bishop of Alexandria, identifies the 27 books of the New Testament which are today recognized as the canon of scripture.

382 AD: Jerome's Latin Vulgate Manuscripts Produced which contain All 80 Books (39 Old Test. + 14 Apocrypha + 27 New Test).

500 AD: Scriptures have been Translated into Over 500 Languages.

600 AD: LATIN was the Only Language Allowed for Scripture.

995 AD: Anglo-Saxon (Early Roots of English Language) Translations of The New Testament Produced.

1384 AD: Wycliffe is the First Person to Produce a (Hand-Written) manuscript Copy of the Complete Bible; All 80 Books.

1455 AD: Gutenberg Invents the Printing Press; Books May Now be mass-Produced Instead of Individually Hand-Written. The First Book Ever Printed is Gutenberg's Bible in Latin.

1516 AD: Erasmus Produces a Greek/Latin Parallel New Testament.

1522 AD: Martin Luther's German New Testament.

1526 AD: William Tyndale's New Testament; The First New Testament printed in the English Language.

1535 AD: Myles Coverdale's Bible; The First Complete Bible printed in the English Language (80 Books: O.T. & N.T. & Apocrypha).

1537 AD: Tyndale-Matthews Bible; The Second Complete Bible printed in English. Done by John "Thomas Matthew" Rogers (80 Books).

1539 AD: The "Great Bible" Printed; The First English Language Bible Authorized for Public Use (80 Books).

1560 AD: The Geneva Bible Printed; The First English Language Bible to add Numbered Verses to Each Chapter (80 Books).

1568 AD: The Bishops Bible Printed; The Bible of which the King James was a Revision (80 Books).

1609 AD: The Douay Old Testament is added to the Rheims New Testament (of 1582) Making the First Complete English Catholic Bible; Translated from the Latin Vulgate (80 Books).

1611 AD: The King James Bible Printed; Originally with All 80 Books. The Apocrypha was Officially Removed in 1885 Leaving Only 66 Books.

1782 AD: Robert Aitken's Bible; The First English Language Bible (KJV) Printed in America.

1791 AD: Isaac Collins and Isaiah Thomas Respectively Produce the First Family Bible and First Illustrated Bible Printed in America. Both were King James Versions, with All 80 Books.

1808 AD: Jane Aitken's Bible (Daughter of Robert Aitken); The First Bible to be Printed by a Woman.

1833 AD: Noah Webster's Bible; After Producing his Famous Dictionary, Webster Printed his Own Revision of the King James Bible.

1841 AD: English Hexapla New Testament; an Early Textual Comparison showing the Greek and 6 Famous English Translations in Parallel Columns.

1846 AD: The Illuminated Bible; The Most Lavishly Illustrated Bible printed in America. A King James Version, with All 80 Books.

1885 AD: The "English Revised Version" Bible; The First Major English Revision of the KJV.

1901 AD: The "American Standard Version"; The First Major American Revision of the KJV.

1971 AD: The "New American Standard Bible" (NASB) is Published as a "Modern and Accurate Word for Word English Translation" of the Bible.

1973 AD: The "New International Version" (NIV) is Published as a "Modern and Accurate Phrase for Phrase English Translation" of the Bible.

1982 AD: The "New King James Version" (NKJV) is Published as a "Modern English Version Maintaining the Original Style of the King James."

2002 AD: The English Standard Version (ESV) is Published as a translation to bridge the gap between the accuracy of the NASB and the readability of the NIV.

My work is done. Who is next?

quote:Look, I wasn't attacking you, I was trying to get this argument out of the way rather than get involved. Having said that, I seriously doubt that Daniel was writing his book at the exact same time he was thrown to the lions.

When he wasn't praying for his life in the den, he was at King Darius' beck and call, interpreting dreams.

My point is, a trivial post on a web forum is nothing in comparison to the distractions the authors of the Bible endured.

quote:Posted by Digital_Savior:

If you were inspired by a supernatural being, you'd have no problem writing about things that had never before been written about.

quote:Last time I checked that was called creativity.

Unless your suggesting that everyone who has ever thought of something new is inspired by the supernatural.

Creativity did not help the authors of the Bible write about future events, that actually came true. Prophecy has nothing to do with creativity, and you know that this was the intended point behind what I said.

Isaiah didn't have to ask for help on names for things and events in the future...because he was divinely inspired with the information.

quote:Originally posted by Graemy:

I have read the bible infact. i didn't like it. it was one of the reasons i converted to Buddhism. It didn't make sense to me.

It honestly doesn't seem like you have...I'm sorry. That's not meant to be an insult, but if you had read the Bible it would seem logical that you'd understand it better than you do.

I'd be happy to answer any questions you may have about it. I'm not like Abrahim. I won't proselytize to you for hours on end without any logical foundation. Just a friendly offer from one poster to another.

AIM: desired hush

MSN: desired.hush@hotmail.com

IRC: Digital (on SlashNET)

quote:Congrats on marrying Hyro though. how many years?

Haha, thanks...too long to be congratulated for it !!! LOL

We will celebrate our 5th anniversary in November. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Creativity did not help the authors of the Bible write about future events, that actually came true. Prophecy has nothing to do with creativity, and you know that this was the intended point behind what I said.

You've yet to prove any prophecy to come true outside of the bible. Only a putrid interpretation of one.

quote:Originally posted by Raw_Power:

My Oxford dictionary states that 'pagan' can mean 'heathen', which can be used as an offensive term. She is using it in an offensive manner, she is clearly being Ad Hom, but she throws her bottle if anyone uses Ad Hom on her. That is why she is a hypocrite.

If you take offense to being called a pagan, you should question from whence your guilty conscience originates.

I use the term pagan to differentiate between a Christian and a non-Christian. It's a Biblical term for a person that isn't Christian...as someone who hates a God who supposedly doesn't exist, why would that be offensive to you ?

I am beginning to suspect you are Atomical, reborn. You are a very recent poster, and having little to no knowledge of me at all, you certainly are a vile little creature. Unless you DO know me...*raises an eyebrow*

quote:I have no problem if people use ad hom on me, that's not the problem. The problem is her telling people in threads not to use 'ad hom' in arguments, and then use it herself. She's a hypocrite.

No, I'm not. I asked you to stop being a prick in the Origins thread. We were having a pretty good debate, until you threw up all over it. It was unecessary. I was setting a boundary. There was no need for you to be a jerk. It was uncalled for.

Identifying someone as a pagan is not the same thing as calling someone a retard.

Pagan (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pagan)

1. One who is not a Christian, Muslim, or Jew, especially a worshiper of a polytheistic religion.

2. One who has no religion.

3. A non-Christian.

4. A hedonist.

5. A Neo-Pagan.

I don't see what is offensive about that. I used it appropriately, as per the definition.

quote:And I didn't literally mean she is a pompous crackwhore, she has the attitude of one. IE, she's an utter bitch. I've met some very nice Christians in my time, and she is not one of them. In fact, she paints Christians as petty, hateful creatures, imo.

Again, you'd have to know some pompous crackwhores in order to compare me to one...pray tell, how do you know what a pompous crackwhore is like ?

What difference does it make if I am nice ? I was plenty nice in the Origins thread, when you started attacking my intelligence by calling me a retard, simply because you disagreed with me. I don't believe I had ever spoken to you prior to that post you made, so what logical foundation have you constructed in your mind that makes it alright for you to viciously attack me on a personal level, and then turn around and call ME a bitch and claim I am not nice ? Pffft...

And me ? PETTY ? You just admitted you were being petty in your "God is unfair and he's SPOILT" thread. Yet, you call me a hypocrite. LOL

quote:If God was real, which he is not, I'd feel sorry for him, because he must lose a lot of possible converts due to having bitches like her preaching.

God is real, and your feigned sympathy doesn't impress Him. I'm not perfect, but I am definitely living more closely in accordance to His will than you are. I love the pagan pretending he is on the moral highground !

oh please, prove him real.

quote:Originally posted by Raw_Power:

No, the prophecy was tyre would be destroyed, never to be rebuilt. And it was rebuilt.

It was prophecied that God would bring MANY nations against Tyre. It would make no sense for God to say that He would bring many nations against her, if He really meant that Nebuchadnezzer would destroy her, never to be rebuilt again.

Use your brain. I laid the prophecy out exactly as it was given. Nebuchadnezzer would destroy Tyre. Tyre rebuilt in a new location, and Alexander the Great destroyed her again, and she was never rebuilt. That is ALL contained in the prophecies. Twist it all you like, but the words on the page never change.

My original post wasn't about the prophecy that it would never be rebuilt. It was about it being destroyed. There are hundreds of prophecies in the Bible. I was pointing out ONE. It was not dishonest on my part to do so, as I intended to do nothing else.

quote:It being attacked is relevant too, because if something continues to be attacked probability states that there's a good chance that at some point it is going to be demolished.

Of course, but the significance of it not being rebuilt again didn't come into play until it had been destroyed by Alexander, which was prophesied.

quote:It was proven Intelligent Design isn't falsifiable and therefore not a scientific theory. This is what I mean when I say you ignore facts that you don't like. Also, thanks for the compliment. I'd rather be a 'pagan' than a pompous crackwhore. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

Typical kidiot move...start talking about something completely irrelevant to try and distract from the current argument, because yours is weak.

ID is falsifiable. Big surprise atheists and evolutionists refuse to acknowledge that, because it would prove that ID is a theory to be contended with. Denying that it is doesn't prove that it is.

You won't be so smug when you find yourself in Sheol. The arrogance of youth is the Devil's playground.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 08-12-2006).]

OK, then, bitch, show that it is falsifiable in ORIGINS AND CIVIL LIBERTIES LIKE YOU'VE BEEN ASKED. Prove that we can falsify god!

You still INTERPRETED the prophecy to fit in, and missed parts out, INTERPRETING them as not 'important'.



[This message has been edited by Raw_Power (edited 08-12-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

WOAH WOAH WOAH! HYRO IS YOUR HUSBAND!? THEEE HUSBAND?!

Mhmm. I hardly see why that is something to go "caps" about...

Anything I have personally said to you about him is not appropriate to repeat on this forum. I am sure you know that, but some people have shown they are incapable of respecting the private lives of other totseans, so I feel compelled to inform you. Meaning, don't talk about it.

quote:Originally posted by Raw_Power:

You've yet to prove any prophecy to come true outside of the bible. Only a putrid interpretation of one.

Yes, yes I have. You would never admit it, but that doesn't change the fact that I have. Ezekiel prophesied the destruction of Tyre, by the exact person and in the exact manner that it was, 300+- years before the actual destruction took place.

You have not proven that it's not an accurate prophecy. Don't ride on hespeaks' coattails, though he didn't refute it, either.

quote:Originally posted by Raw_Power:

oh please, prove him real.

Prove I'm real.

quote:Originally posted by Raw_Power:

OK, then, bitch, show that it is falsifiable in ORIGINS AND CIVIL LIBERTIES LIKE YOU'VE BEEN ASKED. Prove that we can falsify god!

You still INTERPRETED the prophecy to fit in, and missed parts out, INTERPRETING them as not 'important'.

Everything in the prophecy was important. It is also important to read the prophecies correctly. You can't just jump around and make it into something it's not.

Since you had nothing to do with the argument against ID, I think it's safe to say I don't have to answer to you. Rust, truckfxr, Beta69 and After Image were the key players, who actually gave legitimate arguments. All you did was heckle from the sidelines, like a creepy little sidekick that isn't strong enough to lead on his own.

I'm sure you take great pride in adopting the successful arguments of others as your own.

quote:read the prophecies correctly

IE, how you want them to be construed.

quote:You can't just jump around and make it into something it's not.

Why not? That's exactly what you're doing, Miss 'Literalist'.

quote:All you did was heckle from the sidelines, like a creepy little sidekick that isn't strong enough to lead on his own.

I made a thread with my own arguments against your God, the spoilt thread. But you couldn't refute any of them, so you just said the thread sucked. I don't mind AD HOM as long as it's just a tag on to some decent, proper arguments, bitch, but you couldn't refute shit so your entire post was nothing but AD HOM.

quote:I'm sure you take great pride in adopting the successful arguments of others as your own.

As I'm sure you do with your [un]successful arguments. Enjoy Cal Thomas much? can a refrigerator explain how it's been made... can a pot explain how it's been made LOL.



[This message has been edited by Raw_Power (edited 08-12-2006).]

i read the bible a while ago, i have certainly forgot alot of it. i didn't like it when i read it then, and a few days after reading it i looked up buddhism.

quote:Originally posted by Graemy:

i read the bible a while ago, i have certainly forgot alot of it. i didn't like it when i read it then, and a few days after reading it i looked up buddhism.

I didn't have Beta69's email address, so I sent the texts of IanBoyd3 and myself to you.

Best of luck.

I'm in for a larf here, I suppose I could help you guys, and reviewing what IanBoyd3 and Jsaxton14 have done, I can see that you guys need a lot of help. I have to say, that I am a christian, but that I am always in for questioning my beliefs from time to time. I would be quite willing to help you in this project.

Reviewing what IanBoyd3 and jsaxton14 have written. I dont know how many of you have seen this, but I have read the whole thing, and I have to say I was a bit dissapointed.

What you guys have written is nothing more than an oft-quoted science fiction story. It's all logic and no heart. Religion is all about heart. People have to believe in what you are saying, have some personal connection to it. What you guys have written cannot be considered to be a rebuttal of the bible because it's not even in the same genre. In order to write a spiritual text, you have to have some spirituality within it. You can go ahead and write about some creator race or whatever, but you have to include what every major religion includes: The concept of a soul, the concept of life after death, the concept of a judgement of some kind, and a reason why you're religion either helps you avoid said judgement or improves your life.

Having a creator race is fine, but if you're gonna do that, they didn't seed life here, they turned man from a stupid beast into an intelligent, soul-bearing creature.

So here's what you do:

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>

<LI>throw out everything you've done so far.

<LI>start like the bible started, with a creation story.

<LI>esstablish how and why man is immortal

<LI>esstablish how this religion is right and all others are wrong

<LI>add characters

<LI>get a plot going

<LI>Think spiritually, not scientifically. I know that's difficult for most atheists to do, but that's the only way your point will be proven. As much as you don't care to admit it, when read correctly, the bible is a powerful book. Yours is not even good science fiction.

</UL>

If you want my help you can email me at enragedalbinoyak@gmail.com

EDIT: I'm in for anything that proves Digital_Savior wrong.

[This message has been edited by Jaryohem063 (edited 08-12-2006).]

i have started and will be finished soon.

and to the poster above me we aren't creating a religion. but i think you would like my part though.



[This message has been edited by Graemy (edited 08-12-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Graemy:

i have started and will be finished soon.

and to the poster above me we aren't creating a religion. but i think you would like my part though.



You are creating a religion. You just don't plan to believe in it, or ask anyone else to.

I'd be happy to read whatever you're writing. Email it to me when you're done. I'm off to bed.

Last time I checked this thread was an experiment in writing that non-christians participated in, not a debate.

Please create a second thread about prophecy and god if you'd like to debate, because this is drastically off topic, and I'm sure people would be more than willing to debate, but thats not what this thread is about.

P.S. This is mostly directed toward Raw and DS.

[This message has been edited by Aft3r ImaGe (edited 08-12-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Jaryohem063:

I'm in for a larf here, I suppose I could help you guys, and reviewing what IanBoyd3 and Jsaxton14 have done, I can see that you guys need a lot of help. I have to say, that I am a christian, but that I am always in for questioning my beliefs from time to time. I would be quite willing to help you in this project.

Reviewing what IanBoyd3 and jsaxton14 have written. I dont know how many of you have seen this, but I have read the whole thing, and I have to say I was a bit dissapointed.

What you guys have written is nothing more than an oft-quoted science fiction story. It's all logic and no heart. Religion is all about heart. People have to believe in what you are saying, have some personal connection to it. What you guys have written cannot be considered to be a rebuttal of the bible because it's not even in the same genre. In order to write a spiritual text, you have to have some spirituality within it. You can go ahead and write about some creator race or whatever, but you have to include what every major religion includes: The concept of a soul, the concept of life after death, the concept of a judgement of some kind, and a reason why you're religion either helps you avoid said judgement or improves your life.

Having a creator race is fine, but if you're gonna do that, they didn't seed life here, they turned man from a stupid beast into an intelligent, soul-bearing creature.

So here's what you do:

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>

<LI>throw out everything you've done so far.

<LI>start like the bible started, with a creation story.

<LI>esstablish how and why man is immortal

<LI>esstablish how this religion is right and all others are wrong

<LI>add characters

<LI>get a plot going

<LI>Think spiritually, not scientifically. I know that's difficult for most atheists to do, but that's the only way your point will be proven. As much as you don't care to admit it, when read correctly, the bible is a powerful book. Yours is not even good science fiction.

</UL>

If you want my help you can email me at enragedalbinoyak@gmail.com

EDIT: I'm in for anything that proves Digital_Savior wrong.



I'm not sure where you got it from, did jsaxton send it to you, or have you not actually read it?

And by the way, that's collaborating.

The point of the experiment is to prove that 40 guys can easily write a book together sequentially and it's easy as hell.

Ever heard of chain stories?

The bible is really not a very impressive book.

DS, you still never answered my question. Genesis 1 or Genesis 2, and since I know you will say both, explain how they can both be true literally.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Typical kidiot move...start talking about something completely irrelevant to try and distract from the current argument, because yours is weak.

ID is falsifiable. Big surprise atheists and evolutionists refuse to acknowledge that, because it would prove that ID is a theory to be contended with. Denying that it is doesn't prove that it is.

You won't be so smug when you find yourself in Sheol. The arrogance of youth is the Devil's playground.



falsifiable means that something can be found to prove ID wrong. What in the world could EVER be found to prove ID wrong?

Graemy, could I take my turn after you? Thanks. Piewalker101@hotmail.com

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

falsifiable means that something can be found to prove ID wrong. What in the world could EVER be found to prove ID wrong?

Apparently they know, but they keep it a huge secret, because they think if they tell us, it would help to disprove their theory.

Which, I guess, is true, because until it's falsifiable, and they provide a potential way that it could be proven false, it is not a scientific theory at all.

Ok I stopped actually reading the thread once it turned in to a bunch of bickering that I dont particularly care to read.

However, if the experiment laid out in the original post is still in need of authors and is still going on, I would be interested in partaking in it.

Feel free to email it over to randomexcess@hotmail.com if you so desire.

quote:Originally posted by piewalker101:

Graemy, could I take my turn after you? Thanks. Piewalker101@hotmail.com

yep actually you volunteered before me, right?

quote:Originally posted by IanBoyd3:

I'm not sure where you got it from, did jsaxton send it to you, or have you not actually read it?

And by the way, that's collaborating.

The point of the experiment is to prove that 40 guys can easily write a book together sequentially and it's easy as hell.

Ever heard of chain stories?

The bible is really not a very impressive book.

DS, you still never answered my question. Genesis 1 or Genesis 2, and since I know you will say both, explain how they can both be true literally.

I understand that, but chain stories exist allready, you would not be proving anything. If you want to prove that the bible is not devinely inspired because of it's multiple authorship, then you have to emulate the bible, or other sacred texts. I can not help you emulate anything other than the bible, as I have not read anything else.

It's not that the bible was written by 40 people that makes their claim, it's that and the fact that it is inspiring that make the claim that it is inspired. If you want to prove the idiotic christians wrong, you are going to have to do better.

what we are doing is we are saying that if we can make something similar with ease, then the bible might not be divinely inspired.

quote:Originally posted by Graemy:

what we are doing is we are saying that if we can make something similar with ease, then the bible might not be divinely inspired.

Here is the Copy Pasted Proof of the Bible being Non Divine but rather a collection of stories: It contains simple contradictions and numbering and name issues.

http://www.islamawareness.net/Christianity/bible_contra_101.html

and then the explanations

http://www.members.tripod.com/crossbearer-brian/id148.htm

quote:Originally posted by Jaryohem063:

It's not that the bible was written by 40 people that makes their claim, it's that and the fact that it is inspiring that make the claim that it is inspired. If you want to prove the idiotic christians wrong, you are going to have to do better.

so, to prove you kiddies wrong, we'd have to 1) write a book 2) call it "divinely inspired" 3) hope like hell that the common people are ignorant enough to believe the crock of shit we've just brewed and 4) when 3 fails, press our opinion on everyone forcefully so that in roughly two thousand years, the masses will forget any skepticism towards our humble little project? wow. sound fairly easy.

The reason our project will probably have less contradictions is because we are writing it in a short amount of time with no translations and language changes and no re inscriptions by hand and more! Despite all that, I wanna write! Talk to me on MSN when it is my turn!

quote:Originally posted by RogueEagle91:

so, to prove you kiddies wrong, we'd have to 1) write a book 2) call it "divinely inspired" 3) hope like hell that the common people are ignorant enough to believe the crock of shit we've just brewed and 4) when 3 fails, press our opinion on everyone forcefully so that in roughly two thousand years, the masses will forget any skepticism towards our humble little project? wow. sound fairly easy.

Basically. My point is that you can tell quite transparently that the writers of the current shit don't believe in what they're writing. Let's keep in mind that everyone who wrote the bible believed in the bible. I'm not saying that you have to believe in this shit, just to sound like you do.

quote:Originally posted by Graemy:

yep actually you volunteered before me, right?

Yeah, but I'm not too bothered whos before me, I just want to take part

quote:Originally posted by Aft3r ImaGe:

Last time I checked this thread was an experiment in writing that non-christians participated in, not a debate.

I keep checking back in this thread and have been disappointed to see it so grossly derailed. It appears as though we aren't going in order anymore either, so ... someone let me know when I'm up, because I'll be going on vacation on the 20th-27th.

I would still like to participate. I never did (and still don't) think that this is going to *prove* anything concerning the Bible. I'm just a sucker for creative writing projects.

Also: How does Jaryohem063 know what has been written so far? Is it posted somewhere?! LINK!!

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

Here is the Copy Pasted Proof of the Bible being Non Divine but rather a collection of stories: It contains simple contradictions and numbering and name issues.

http://www .islamawareness.net/Christianity/bible_contra_101.html (http: //www.isla mawareness .net/Chris tianity/bi ble_contra _101.html)

and then the explanations

http:// www.member (http: //www.memb ers.tripod .com/cross bearer-bri an/id148.h tm) s.tripod.com/crossbearer-brian/id148.htm

Hi Abrahim,

I'm not quite sure what you were trying to convey with this post, but i'd like to point out somethings that some of the TOTSE members might not realize when they claim "contradictions in the Bible"..

(from the 2nd site that you posted, which i used bolding tags in your quote)

(also, the bold in the quoted piece is emphasis, mine)

"Contradictions analyzed:

When we look at the contradictions which Muslims point out we find that many of these errors are not errors at all but either a misunderstanding of the context or nothing more then copyist mistakes. The former can easily be explained, while the latter need a little more attention. It is quite clear that the books of the Old Testament were written between the 17th and the 5th century BC on the only parchments available at that time, pieces of Papyrus, which decayed rather quickly, and so needed continual copying. We now know that much of the Old Testament was copied by hand for 3,000 years, while the New Testament was copied for another 1,400 years, in isolated communities in different lands and on different continents, yet they still remain basically unchanged.

Today many older manuscripts have been found which we can use to corroborate those earlier manuscripts. In fact we have an enormous collection of manuscripts available to which we can go to corroborate the textual credibility of our current document. Concerning the New Testament manuscripts (MSS) we have in our possession 5,300 Greek manuscripts or fragments thereof, 10,000 Latin Vulgate manuscripts and at least 9,300 other early translations. In all we now have more than 24,000 manuscript copies or portions of the New Testament from which to use! Obviously this gives us much more material with which to delineate any variant verses which may exist. Where there is a variant reading, these have been identified and expunged and noted as footnotes on the relevant pages of the texts. In no way does this imply any defects with our Bible (as found in the original autographs).

Christians readily admit, however, that there have been 'scribal errors' in the copies of the Old and New Testament. It is beyond the capability of anyone to avoid any and every slip of the pen in copying page after page from any book, sacred or secular. Yet we may be sure that the original manuscript (better known as autograph) of each book of the Bible, being directly inspired by God, was free from all error. Those originals, however, because of the early date of their inception no longer exist.

The individuals responsible for the copying (scribes or copyists) were prone to making two types of scribal errors, well known and documented by those expert in the field of manuscript analysis. One concerned the spelling of proper names (especially unfamiliar foreign names), and the other had to do with numbers. The fact that it is mainly these type of errors in evidence gives credence to the argument for copyist errors. If indeed the originals were in contradiction, we would see evidence of this within the content of the stories themselves. (Archer 1982:221-222)

What is important to remember, however, is that no well-attested variation in the manuscript copies that have come down to us alter any doctrine of the Bible. To this extent, at least, the Holy Spirit has exercised a restraining influence in superintending the transmission of the text.

Since God has nowhere promised an inerrant transmission of Scripture, it is necessary to affirm that only the autographic text of the original documents were inspired. For that reason it is essential that we maintain an ongoing textual criticism as a means of detecting any slips that may have crept into the text in the course of its transmission. The verdict of this science, however, is that the Hebrew and Greek text appears to be amazingly well preserved, so that we are amply justified in affirming, with the Westminster Confession, a singular providence of God in this matter and in declaring that the authority of Scripture is in no way jeopardized by the fact that the copies we possess are not entirely error-free.

Similarly, no translation is or can be perfect, and all translations are an additional step away from the autograph. Yet the verdict of linguistic science is that English-speaking Christians, at least, are exceedingly well served in these days with a host of excellent translations and have no cause for hesitating to conclude that the true Word of God is within their reach. Indeed, in view of the frequent repetition in Scripture of the main matters with which it deals and also of the Holy Spirit's constant witness to and through the Word, no serious translation of Holy Scripture will so destroy its meaning as to render it unable to make its reader "wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus" (2 Tim. 3:15)" "

Of all the "contradictions" that i have looked at, most seem to fall into the catagories of

a) taken out of context

b) the rendering between different languages

(example.. (1 Samuel 17:23, 50) vs. (2 Samuel 21:19) which is one where it is questioned who killed Goliath, however, the Hebrew text shows that in 2 Samuel 21:19 is refering to the person that killed Goliath's brother. It is also confirmed in another part of Scripture (1 Chronicle 20:5)

c)numbering mistakes (50 vs. 500)

to me, these were the most difficult to explain, but in light of the article Abrahim posted, could be understood as copiest's mistakes.

d)differences in versions..

I have seen some "contradictions" that attackers of the Bible have used verses from two different versions (ex. KJV & NIV) which make a small difficulty look like a contradiction.

Generally, when someone points out a "contadiction" to me, i usually start with looking in KJV with Strongs numbers to see what the words might mean.

After i've drawn my conclussion (determined to myself that there is not a conflict, and why), then i look at the commentaries of others to see if i came to the same conclussion... generally i'm atleast in the same ballpark... not always, but hey, who's perfect.



My suggestion is that when one "hears" of a contradiction between two passages, dont JUST flip to the passages and say, "yep, i see the contradiction, how come those stuppid believers cant see it?" ...

Actually take the time to study it alittle. You might be surprised that even you might see that the apparant contradiction is not in conflict.



johnny

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:





If you still dont understand me, let me know... i have a true story for you that might be able to illustrate this, but i dont have the time right now to write it...

johnny



Here is that true story, whether you believe it or not does not matter.

On one of the routes that i deliver, there used to be a factory building (Paul Flagg Leather). I had been delivering that route while they were tearing it down.

The day before the 9/11 attack on the WTC, all that was left to tear down were two large chimneys.

In my smart ass mind, i said to myself, "i wonder how they're going to tear them down... i know, they could fly a plane into them and knock 'em down"... then i kinda chuckled and continued on with my route.

The next day, when i heard the report of the WTC, i said, "wow, that was eeerry".

Now, i'm not claiming to be a prophet. And i only attribute it to coincidence, but what i am trying to point out is that, just because the Gospel of Mark may have been written after the destruction of the Temple in AD 70, has no bearing on whether or not the Prophecy of Jesus is accurately portrayed in Mark and predicted prior to the event.



johnny

The fact that the bible is intact and major error free is not proof that the bible is divinely inspired. Anyone who really thinks about it has to realize that there is not proof that the bible is divinely inspired. There is not proof about just about anything within just about any religion. I am mormon, and I believe a lot of "crazy" things, but I would never claim to have any proof for them. The proof lies within your heart and soul. That's why I, a christian, am willing to help with this project. I believe that anyone who looks for proof that their faith is correct must really doubt it's validity. Especially proof in such a stupid place.

"the bible is inspired because it was like written by 40 different guys, and if 40 different guys write something it must be inspired"... What kind of a crock of shit is that? I've heard better reasoning out of goddamn 7 year old.

I dislike ultra right-wing christians like DS, and I am as irritated by their nonsensical ramblings as you are. If I can help to prove them wrong, maybe the rational side of christianity will come out, instead of the radical.

quote:Originally posted by Jaryohem063:

The fact that the bible is intact and major error free is not proof that the bible is divinely inspired. Anyone who really thinks about it has to realize that there is not proof that the bible is divinely inspired. There is not proof about just about anything within just about any religion. I am mormon, and I believe a lot of "crazy" things, but I would never claim to have any proof for them. The proof lies within your heart and soul. That's why I, a christian, am willing to help with this project. I believe that anyone who looks for proof that their faith is correct must really doubt it's validity. Especially proof in such a stupid place.

"the bible is inspired because it was like written by 40 different guys, and if 40 different guys write something it must be inspired"... What kind of a crock of shit is that? I've heard better reasoning out of goddamn 7 year old.

I dislike ultra right-wing christians like DS, and I am as irritated by their nonsensical ramblings as you are. If I can help to prove them wrong, maybe the rational side of christianity will come out, instead of the radical.

Anyone who looks for proof their faith is correct must really doubt it's validity?

GOOD.

You SHOULD question things. For christs' fucking sake, would you simply believe it if some dude just walked up and said he found some golden plates from heaven which an angel helped him translate into a book about ancient people of whom we have found no proof of there existence whatsoever?

Oh, right.

You do believe that.

That explains a lot.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

Yes be sure to email the papyrus to everyone.

It's not like the Bible doesn't have errors in the fashion in which they were copied and re written which still remain in the text.

Here we go! Check 101 Contradictions Online for a copy of this document and sources"

101 Clear Contradictions In The Bible

Contradiction #1

Who incited David to count the fighting men of Israel? (a) God did (2 Samuel 24:1) (b) Satan did (1 Chronicles 21:1).

Contradiction #2

In that count how many fighting men were found in Israel? (a) Eight hundred thousand (2 Samuel 24:9). (b) One million, one hundred thousand (1 Chronicles 21:5).

Contradiction #3

How many fighting men were found in Judah? (a) Five hundred thousand (2 Samuel 24:9). (b) Four hundred and seventy thousand (1 Chronicles 21:5).

Contradiction #4

God sent his prophet to threaten David with how many years of famine? (a) Seven (2 Samuel 24:13). (b) Three (1 Chronicles 21:12).

Contradiction #5

How old was Ahaziah when he began to rule over Jerusalem? (a) Twenty-two (2 Kings 8:26). (b) Forty-two (2 Chronicles 22:2).

Contradiction #6

How old was Jehoiachin when he became king of Jerusalem? (a) Eighteen (2 Kings 24:8). (b) Eight (2 Chronicles 36:9).

Contradiction #7

How long did he rule over Jerusalem? (a) Three months (2 Kings 24:8). (b) Three months and ten days (2 Chronicles 36:9).

Contradiction #8

The chief of the mighty men of David lifted up his spear and killed how many men at one time? (a) Eight hundred (2 Samuel 23:8). (b) Three hundred (1 Chronicles 11:11).

Contradiction #9

When did David bring the Ark of the Covenant to Jerusalem? Before defeating the Philistines or after? (a) After (2 Samuel 5 and 6). (b) Before (1 Chronicles 13 and 14).

Contradiction #10

How many pairs of clean animals did God tell Noah to take into the Ark? (a) Two (Genesis 6:19, 20). (b) Seven (Genesis 7:2). But despite this last instruction only two pairs went into the ark (Genesis 7:8, 9).

Contradiction #11

When David defeated the King of Zobah, how many horsemen did he capture? (a) One thousand and seven hundred (2 Samuel 8:4). (b) Seven thousand (1 Chronicles 18:4).

Contradiction #12

How many stalls for horses did Solomon have? (a) Forty thousand (1 Kings 4:26). (b) Four thousand (2 chronicles 9:25).

Contradiction #13

In what year of King Asa's reign did Baasha, King of Israel die? (a) Twenty-sixth year (1 Kings 15:33 - 16:8). (b) Still alive in the thirty-sixth year (2 Chronicles 16:1).

Contradiction #14

How many overseers did Solomon appoint for the work of building the temple? (a) Three thousand six hundred (2 Chronicles 2:2) (b) Three thousand three hundred (1 Kings 5:16).

Contradiction #15

Solomon built a facility containing how many baths? (a) Two thousand (1 Kings 7:26). (b) Over three thousand (2 Chronicles 4:5).

Contradiction #16

Of the Israelites who were freed from the Babylonian captivity, how many were the children of Pahrath-Moab? (a) Two thousand eight hundred and twelve (Ezra 2:6). (b) Two thousand eight hundred and eighteen (Nehemiah 7:11).

Contradiction #17

How many were the children of Zattu? (a) Nine hundred and forty-five (Ezra 2:8) (b) Eight hundred and forty-five (Nehemiah 7:13).

Contradiction #18

How many were the children of Azgad? (a) One thousand two hundred and twenty-two (Ezra 2:12). (b) Two thousand three hundred and twenty-two (Nehemiah 7:17). Contradiction #19

How many were the children of Adin? (a) Four hundred and fifty-four (Ezra 2:15). (b) Six hundred and fifty-five (Nehemiah 7:20).

Contradiction #20

How many were the children of Hashum? (a) Two hundred and twenty-three (Ezra 2:19). (b) Three hundred and twenty-eight (Nehemiah 7:22).

Contradiction #21

How many were the children of Bethel and Ai? (a) Two hundred and twenty-three (Ezra 2:28). (b) One hundred and twenty-three (Nehemiah 7:32).

Contradiction #22

Ezra 2:64 and Nehemiah 7:66 agree that the total number of the whole assembly was 42,360. Yet the numbers do not add up to anything close. The totals obtained from each book is as follows: (a) 29,818 (Ezra). (b) 31, 089 (Nehemiah).

Contradiction #23

How many singers accompanied the assembly? (a) Two hundred (Ezra 2:65). (b) Two hundred and forty-five (Nehemiah 7:67).

Contradiction #24

What was the name of King Abijah's mother? (a) Michaiah, daughter of Uriel of Gibeah (2 Chronicles 13:2). (b) Maachah, daughter of Absalom (2 Chronicles 11:20). But Absalom had only one daughter whose name was Tamar (2 Samuel 14:27).

Contradiction #25

Did Joshua and the Israelites capture Jerusalem? (a) Yes (Joshua 10:23, 40). (b) No (Joshua 15:63).

Contradiction #26

Who was the father of Joseph, husband of Mary? (a) Jacob (Matthew 1:16). (b) Heli (Luke 3:23).

Contradiction #27

Jesus descended from which son of David? (a) Solomon (Matthew 1:6). (b) Nathan (Luke 3:31).

Contradiction #28

Who was the father of Shealtiel? (a) Jechoniah (Matthew 1:12). (b) Neri (Luke 3:27).

Contradiction #29

Which son of Zerubbabel was an ancestor of Jesus Christ? (a) Abiud (Matthew 1:13). (b) Rhesa (Luke 3:27). But the seven sons of Zerubbabel are as follows: I. Meshullam, ii. Hananiah, iii. Hashubah, iv. Ohel, v. Berechiah, vi. Hasadiah, viii. Jushabhesed (1 Chronicles 3:19, 20). The names Abiud and Rhesa do not fit in anywhere.

Contradiction #30

Who was the father of Uzziah? (a) Joram (Matthew 1:8). (b) Amaziah (2 Chronicles 26:1).

Contradiction #31

Who as the father of Jechoniah? (a) Josiah (Matthew 1:11). (b) Jehoiakim (1 Chronicles 3:16).

Contradiction #32

How many generations were there from the Babylonian exile until Christ? (a) Matthew says fourteen (Matthew 1:17). (b) But a careful count of the generations reveals only thirteen (see Matthew 1:12-16).

Contradiction #33

Who was the father of Shelah? (a) Cainan (Luke 3:35-36). (b) Arphaxad (Genesis 11:12).

Contradiction #34

Was John the Baptist Elijah who was to come? (a) Yes (Matthew 11:14, 17:10-13). (b) No (John 1:19-21).

Contradiction #35

Would Jesus inherit David's throne? (a) Yes. So said the angel (Luke 1:32). (b) No, since he is a descendant of Jehoiakim (see Matthew 1:11, 1 Chronicles 3:16). And Jehoiakim was cursed by God so that none of his descendants can sit upon David's throne (Jeremiah 36:30).

Contradiction #36

Jesus rode into Jerusalem on how many animals? (a) One - a colt (Mark 11:7; cf. Luke 19:35). And they brought the colt to Jesus and threw their garments on it; and he sat upon it." (b) Two - a colt and an ass (Matthew 21:7). They brought the ass and the colt and put their garments on them and he sat thereon."

Contradiction #37

How did Simon Peter find out that Jesus was the Christ? (a) By a revelation from heaven (Matthew16:17). (b) His brother Andrew told him (John 1:41).

Contradiction #38

Where did Jesus first meet Simon Peter and Andrew? (a) By the sea of Galilee (Matthew 4:18-22). (b) On the banks of river Jordan (John 1:42). After that, Jesus decided to go to Galilee (John 1:43).

Contradiction #39

When Jesus met Jairus was Jairus' daughter already dead? (a) Yes. Matthew 9:18 quotes him as saying, "My daughter has just died." (b) No. Mark 5:23 quotes him as saying, "My little daughter is at the point of death."

Contradiction #40

Did Jesus allow his disciples to keep a staff on their journey? (a) Yes (Mark 6:8). (b) No (Matthew 10:9; Luke 9:3).

Contradiction #41

Did Herod think that Jesus was John the baptist? (a) Yes (Matthew 14:2; Mark 6:16). (b) No (Luke 9:9)

Contradiction #42

Did John the Baptist recognise Jesus before his baptism? (a) Yes (Matthew 3:13-14). (b) No (John 1:32, 33).

Contradiction #43

Did John the Baptist recognize Jesus after his baptism? (a) Yes (John 1:32, 33). (b) No (Matthew 11:2).

Contradiction #44

According to the Gospel of John, what did Jesus say about bearing his own witness? (a) "If I bear witness to myself, my testimony is not true"(John 5:31). (b) "Even if I do bear witness to myself, my testimony is true" (John 8:14).

Contradiction #45

When Jesus entered Jerusalem did he cleanse the temple that same day? (a) Yes (Matthew 21:12). (b) No. He went into the temple and looked around, but since it was very late he did nothing. Instead, he went to Bethany to spend the night and returned the next morning to cleanse the temple (Mark 11:1-17).

Contradiction #46

The Gospels say that Jesus cursed a fig tree. Did the tree wither at once? (a) Yes. (Matthew 21:19). (b) No. It withered overnight (Mark 11:20).

Contradiction #47

Did Judas kiss Jesus? (a) Yes (Matthew 26:48-50). (b) No. Judas could not get close enough to Jesus to kiss him (John 18:3-12).

Contradiction #48

What did Jesus say about Peter's denial? (a) "The cock will not crow till you have denied me three times" (John 13:38). (b) "Before the cock crows twice you will deny me three times" (Mark 14:30). When the cock crowed once, the three denials were not yet complete (see Mark 14:72). Therefore prediction (a) failed.

Contradiction #49

Did Jesus bear his own cross? (a) Yes (John 19:17). (b) No (Matthew 27:31-32).

Contradiction #50

Did Jesus die before the curtain of the temple was torn? (a) Yes (Matthew 27:50-51; Mark 15:37-38). (b) No. After the curtain was torn, then Jesus crying with a loud voice, said, "Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit!" And having said this he breathed his last (Luke 23:45-46).

Contradiction #51

Did Jesus say anything secretly? (a) No. "I have said nothing secretly" (John 18:20). (b) Yes. "He did not speak to them without a parable, but privately to his own disciples he explained everything" (Mark 4:34). The disciples asked him "Why do you speak to them in parables?" He said, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given" (Matthew 13:10-11).

Contradiction #52

Where was Jesus at the sixth hour on the day of the crucifixion? (a) On the cross (Mark 15:23). (b) In Pilate's court (John 19:14).

Contradiction #53

The gospels say that two thieves were crucified along with Jesus. Did both thieves mock Jesus? (a) Yes (Mark 15:32). (b) No. One of them mocked Jesus, the other defended Jesus (Luke 23:43).

Contradiction #54

Did Jesus ascend to Paradise the same day of the crucifixion? (a) Yes. He said to the thief who defended him, "Today you will be with me in Paradise" (Luke 23:43). (b) No. He said to Mary Magdelene two days later, "I have not yet ascended to the Father" (John 20:17).

Contradiction #55

When Paul was on the road to Damascus he saw a light and heard a voice. Did those who were with him hear the voice? (a) Yes (Acts 9:7). (b) No (Acts 22:9).

Contradiction #56

When Paul saw the light he fell to the ground. Did his traveling companions also fall to the ground? (a) Yes (Acts 26:14). (b) No (Acts 9:7).

Contradiction #57

Did the voice spell out on the spot what Paul's duties were to be? (a) Yes (Acts 26:16-18). (b) No. The voice commanded Paul to go into the city of Damascus and there he will be told what he must do. (Acts 9:7; 22:10).

Contradiction #58

When the Israelites dwelt in Shittin they committed adultery with the daughters of Moab. God struck them with a plague. How many people died in that plague? (a) Twenty-four thousand (Numbers 25:1 and 9). (b) Twenty-three thousand (1 Corinthians 10:8).

Contradiction #59

How many members of the house of Jacob came to Egypt? (a) Seventy souls (Genesis 46:27). (b) Seventy-five souls (Acts 7:14).

Contradiction #60

What did Judas do with the blood money he received for betraying Jesus? (a) He bought a field (Acts 1:18). (b) He threw all of it into the temple and went away. The priests could not put the blood money into the temple treasury, so they used it to buy a field to bury strangers (Matthew 27:5).

Contradiction #61

How did Judas die? (a) After he threw the money into the temple he went away and hanged himself (Matthew 27:5). (b) After he bought the field with the price of his evil deed he fell headlong and burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out (Acts 1:18).

Contradiction #62

Why is the field called "Field of Blood"? (a) Because the priests bought it with the blood money (Matthew 27:8). (b) Because of the bloody death of Judas therein (Acts 1:19).

Contradiction #63

Who is a ransom for whom? (a) "The Son of Man came . . . to give his life as a ransom for many" (Mark 10:45). " . . . Christ Jesus who gave himself as a ransom for all . . . " (1 Timothy 2:5-6). (b) "The wicked is a ransom for the righteous, and the faithless for the upright" (Proverbs 21:18).

Contradiction #64

Is the law of Moses useful? (a) Yes. "All scripture is . . . profitable . . ." (2 Timothy 3:16). (b) No. ". . . A former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness . . . " (Hebrews 7:18).

Contradiction #65

What was the exact wording on the cross? (a) "This is Jesus the King of the Jews" (Matthew 27:37). (b) "The King of the Jews" (Mark 15:26) (c) "This is the King of the Jews" (Luke 23:38). (d) "Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews" (John 19:19).

Contradiction #66

Did Herod want to kill John the Baptist? (a) Yes (Matthew 14:5). (b) No. It was Herodias, the wife of Herod who wanted to kill him. But Herod knew that he was a righteous man and kept him safe (Mark 6:20).

Contradiction #67

Who was the tenth disciple of Jesus in the list of twelve? (a) Thaddaeus (Matthew 10:1-4; Mark 3:13-19). (b) Judas son of James is the corresponding name in Luke's gospel (Luke 6:12-16).

Contradiction #68

Jesus saw a man sitting at the tax collector's office and called him to be his disciple. What was his name? (a) Matthew (Matthew 9:9). (b) Levi (Mark 2:14; Luke 5:27).

Contradiction #69

Was Jesus crucified on the daytime before the Passover meal or the daytime after? (a) After (Mark 14:12-17). (b) Before. Before the feast of the Passover (John 13:1) Judas went out at night (John 13:30). The other disciples thought he was going out to buy supplies to prepare for the Passover meal (John 13:29). When Jesus was arrested, the Jews did not enter Pilate's judgement hall because they wanted to stay clean to eat the Passover (John 18:28). When the judgement was pronounced against Jesus, it was about the sixth hour on the day of Preparation for the Passover (John 19:14).

Contradiction #70

Did Jesus pray to The Father to prevent the crucifixion? (a) Yes. (Matthew 26:39; Mark 14:36; Luke 22:42). (b) No. (John 12:27).

Contradiction #71

In the gospels which say that Jesus prayed to avoid the cross, how many times did he move away from his disciples to pray? (a) Three (Matthew 26:36-46 and Mark 14:32-42). (b) One. No opening is left for another two times. (Luke 22:39-46).

Contradiction #72

Matthew and Mark agree that Jesus went away and prayed three times. What were the words of the second prayer? (a) Mark does not give the words but he says that the words were the same as the first prayer (Mark 14:39). (b) Matthew gives us the words, and we can see that they are not the same as in the first (Matthew 26:42).

Contradiction #73

What did the centurion say when Jesus dies? (a) "Certainly this man was innocent" (Luke 23:47). (b) "Truly this man was the Son of God" (Mark 15:39).

Contradiction #74

When Jesus said "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" in what language did he speak? (a) Hebrew: the words are "Eli, Eli . . . " (Matthew 27:46). (b) Aramaic: the words are "Eloi, Eloi . . . " (Mark 15:34).

Contradiction #75

According to the gospels, what were the last words of Jesus before he died? (a) "Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit!" (Luke 23:46). (b) "It is finished" (John 19:30).

Contradiction #76

When Jesus entered Capernaum he healed the slave of a centurion. Did the centurion come personally to request Jesus for this? (a) Yes (Matthew 8:5). (b) No. He sent some elders of the Jews and his friends (Luke 7:3, 6).

Contradiction #77

(a) Adam was told that if and when he eats the forbidden fruit he would die the same day (Genesis 2:17). (b) Adam ate the fruit and went on to live to a ripe old age of 930 years (Genesis 5:5).

Contradiction #78

(a) God decided that the life-span of humans will be limited to 120 years (Genesis 6:3). (b) Many people born after that lived longer than 120. Arpachshad lived 438 years. His son Shelah lived 433 years. His son Eber lived 464 years, etc. (Genesis 11:12-16).

Contradiction #79

Apart from Jesus did anyone else ascend to heaven? (a) No (John 3:13). (b) Yes. "And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven" (2 Kings 2:11).

Contradiction #80

Who was high priest when David went into the house of God and ate the consecrated bread? (a) Abiathar (Mark 2:26). (b) Ahimelech, the father of Abiathar (1 Samuel 21:1; 22:20).

Contradiction #81

Was Jesus' body wrapped in spices before burial in accordance with Jewish burial customs? (a) Yes and his female disciples witnessed his burial (John 19:39-40). (b) No. Jesus was simply wrapped in a linen shroud. Then the women bought and prepared spices "so that they may go and anoint him [Jesus]" (Mark 16:1).

Contradiction #82

When did the women buy the spices? (a) After "the sabbath was past" (Mark 16:1). (b) Before the sabbath. The women "prepared spices and ointments." Then, "on the Sabbath they rested according to the commandment" (Luke 23:55 to 24:1).

Contradiction #83

At what time of day did the women visit the tomb? (a) "Toward the dawn" (Matthew 28:1). (b) "When the sun had risen" (Mark 16:2).

Contradiction #84

What was the purpose for which the women went to the tomb? (a) To anoint Jesus' body with spices (Mark 16:1;Luke 23:55 to 24:1). (b) To see the tomb. Nothing about spices here (Matthew 28:1). For no specified reason. In this gospel the wrapping with spices had been done before the sabbath (John 20:1).

Contradiction #85

A large stone was placed at the entrance of the tomb. Where was the stone when the women arrived? (a) They saw that the stone was "Rolled back" (Mark 16:4). They found the stone "rolled away from the tomb" (Luke 24:2). They saw that "the stone had been taken away from the tomb" (John 20:1) (b) As the women approached, an angel descended from heaven, rolled away the stone, and conversed with the women. Matthew made the women witness the spectacular rolling away of the stone (Matthew 28:1-6).

Contradiction #86

Did anyone tell the women what happened to Jesus' body? (a) Yes. "A young man in a white robe" (Mark 16:5). "Two men . . . in dazzling apparel" later described as angels (Luke 24:4 and 24:23). An angel - the one who rolled back the stone (Matthew 16:2). In each case the women were told that Jesus had risen from the dead (Matthew 28:7; Mark 16:6; Luke 24:5 footnote). (b) No. Mary met no one and returned saying, "They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid him" (John 20:2).

Contradiction #87

When did Mary Magdelene first meet the resurrected Jesus? And how did she react? (a) Mary and the other women met Jesus on their way back from their first and only visit to the tomb. They took hold of his feet and worshiped him (Matthew 28:9). (b) On her second visit to the tomb Mary met Jesus just outside the tomb. When she saw Jesus she did not recognize him. She mistook him for the gardener. She still thinks that Jesus' body is laid to rest somewhere and she demands to know where. But when Jesus said her name she at once recognized him and called him "Teacher." Jesus said to her, "Do not hold me . . . " (John 20:11 to 17).

Contradiction #88

What was Jesus' instruction for his disciples? (a) "Tell my brethren to go to Galilee, and there they will see me" (Matthew 28:10). (b) "Go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God" (John 20:17).

Contradiction #89

When did the disciples return to Galilee? (a) Immediately, because when they saw Jesus in Galilee "some doubted" (Matthew 28:17). This period of uncertainty should not persist. (b) After at least 40 days. That evening the disciples were still in Jerusalem (Luke 24:33). Jesus appeared to them there and told them, "stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high" (Luke 24:49). He was appearing to them "during forty days" (Acts 1:3), and "charged them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise . . . "(Acts 1:4).

Contradiction #90

To whom did the Midianites sell Joseph? (a) "To the Ishmaelites" (Genesis 37:28). (b) "To Potiphar, an officer of Pharoah" (Genesis 37:36).

Contradiction #91

Who brought Joseph to Egypt? (a) The Ishmaelites bought Joseph and then "took Joseph to Egypt" (Genesis 37:28). (b) "The Midianites had sold him in Egypt" (Genesis 37:36). Joseph said to his brothers "I am your brother, Joseph, whom you sold into Egypt" (Genesis 45:4).

Contradiction #92

Does God change his mind? (a) Yes. The word of the Lord came to Samuel: "I repent that I have made Saul King . . ." (1 Samuel 15:10 to 11). (b) No. God "will not lie or repent; for he is not a man, that he should repent" (1 Samuel 15:29). (c) Yes. "And the Lord repented that he had made Saul King over Israel" (1 Samuel 15:35). Notice that the above three quotes are all from the same chapter of the same book! In addition, the Bible shows that God repented on several other occasions: I. The Lord was sorry that he made man" (Genesis 6:6). " I am sorry that I have made them" (Genesis 6:7) ii."And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do to his people" (Exodus 32:14) iii.(Lots of other such references).

Contradiction #93

The Bible says that for each miracle Moses and Aaron demonstrated the same by their secret arts. Then comes the following feat: (a) Moses and Aaron converted all the available water into blood (Exodus 7:20-21). (b) The magicians did the same (Exodus 7:22). This is impossible, since there would have been no water left to convert into blood.

Contradiction #94

Who killed Goliath? (a) David (1 Samuel 17:23, 50). (b) Elhanan (2 Samuel 21:19).

Contradiction #95

Who killed Saul? (a) "Saul took his own sword and fell upon it. . . . Thus Saul died... (1 Samuel 31:4-6). (b) An Amalekite slew him (2 Samuel 1:1-16).

Contradiction #96

Does every man sin? (a) Yes. "There is no man who does not sin" (1 Kings 8:46; see also 2 Chronicles 6:36; Proverbs 20:9; Ecclesiastes 7:20; and 1 John 1:8-10). (b) No. True Christians cannot possibly sin, because they are the children of God.

Every one who believes that Jesus is the Christ is a child of God . . (1 John 5:1). "We should be called children of God; and so we are" (1 John 3:1). "He who loves is born of God" (1 John 4:7). "No one born of God commits sin; for God's nature abides in him, and he cannot sin because he is born of God" (1 John 3:9). But, then again, Yes! "If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" (1 John 1:8).

Contradiction #97

Who will bear whose burden? (a) "Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ" (Galatians 6:2). (b) "Each man will have to bear his own load" (Galatians 6:5).

Contradiction #98

How many disciples did Jesus appear to after his resurrection? (a) Twelve (1 Corinthians 15:5). (b) Eleven (Matthew 27:3-5 and Acts 1:9-26, see also Matthew 28:16; Mark 16:14 footnote; Luke 24:9; Luke 24:33).

Contradiction #99

Where was Jesus three days after his baptism? (a) After his baptism, "the spirit immediately drove him out into the wilderness. And he was in the wilderness forty days . . . (Mark 1:12-13). (b) Next day after the baptism, Jesus selected two disciples. Second day: Jesus went to Galilee — two more disciples. Third day: Jesus was at a wedding feast in Cana in Galilee (see John 1:35; 1:43; 2:1-11).

Contradiction #100

Was baby Jesus's life threatened in Jerusalem? (a) Yes, so Joseph fled with him to Egypt and stayed there until Herod died (Matthew 2:13 - 23). (b) No. The family fled nowhere. They calmly presented the child at the Jerusalem temple according to the Jewish customs and returned to Galilee (Luke 2:21-40).

Contradiction #101

When Jesus walked on water how did the disciples respond? (a) They worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God" (Matthew 14:33). (b) "They were utterly astounded, for they did not understand about the loaves, but their hearts were hardened" (Mark 6:51-52).

Thanks alot for posting this. Finally someone actually did.

Ill get around to combing through these if I remember.

Oh Log, who invited DS to this shindig? Seriously WTF.

Anyway just a reminder I'm still down for this exercise, I wait with bated breath for my e-mail.

quote:Originally posted by IanBoyd3:

Anyone who looks for proof their faith is correct must really doubt it's validity?

GOOD.

You SHOULD question things. For christs' fucking sake, would you simply believe it if some dude just walked up and said he found some golden plates from heaven which an angel helped him translate into a book about ancient people of whom we have found no proof of there existence whatsoever?

Oh, right.

You do believe that.

That explains a lot.

Sorry, What I meant to say was that anyone who needs scientific proof really doesn't have any faith. Faith is belief in the absence of proof. Anyone who believes that out there proof exists that the bible is divinely inspired is out of their minds. "Proof" of divine anything exists only within the individual.

And jesus christ ian, If you'd check the score here, I'm doing my best to be on your side. I'm trying to help you prove that the bible's authorship proves nothing. My above post which you so rudely ripped into shreads was an attempt to explain in rational terms why a devout mormon would throw his hat in with a crowd of atheists in an quest to cast doubt on the divinity of one of our holiest books.

I'll tell you right now that I have no tangible proof of the divinity of the book of mormon, and that I never have. If I were to explain to you why I believe what I believe you would not understand and you would laugh. Do not believe that because you are a "rational atheist" that you are somehow better than us lowlife christians, because that makes you no better than digital savior. She carries that same sort of smug attitude toward her beliefs that you do towards yours.

I may believe in odd things which make no sense.

I may not have any emperical evidence which I can point to in order to prove my claims.

I may be wasting my time and money on a God which you are sure does not exist.

But You can go ahead and ask jsaxton14 this, as he's the only one here with firsthand knowledge of all of this, but I am much better off being mormon than not. I'm far more focused, I don't do drugs, I dont waste my life with alcohol, and damnit, I'm far happier than I was beforehand. If on my deathbed I find out that you were right all along, I will regret nothing.

If you want my help I will still give it for the reasons I stated above. I can say without ego that you need people like me if you plan to prove anything with this project, because your complete inability to think outside the box certainly does not make for very inspiring reading.

quote:Originally posted by Jaryohem063:

your complete inability to think outside the box certainly does not make for very inspiring reading.

Although I appreciate your offer to help, I completely disagree with your assertation that this has to be good, inspiring reading. We're not trying to win the Pulitzer Prize here, we're simply trying to put together a coherent and consistent document. The fact that this document may be boring does not negate the fact that it is still consistent. If the authors don't seem to believe in it, so what? It doesn't negate the fact that 40 authors from diverse backgrounds can write a consistent book without collaboration.

Furthermore, the Bible isn't exactly a page turner. In fact, it is some of the worst, most boring writing I have ever encountered. It is also inconsistent and morally repulsive, two things we hope to avoid in our book.

Regarding Jaryohem063's faith, I can attest to the fact that he has cleaned up his life after converting to Mormonism, and seems happier. This doesn't negate the fact that I am convinced his faith is completely irrational.

quote:Originally posted by jsaxton14:

Although I appreciate your offer to help, I completely disagree with your assertation that this has to be good, inspiring reading. We're not trying to win the Pulitzer Prize here, we're simply trying to put together a coherent and consistent document. The fact that this document may be boring does not negate the fact that it is still consistent. If the authors don't seem to believe in it, so what? It doesn't negate the fact that 40 authors from diverse backgrounds can write a consistent book without collaboration.

You are collaborating. I can see you collaborating. In fact, at the moment, we are currently collaborating.

quote:

Furthermore, the Bible isn't exactly a page turner. In fact, it is some of the worst, most boring writing I have ever encountered. It is also inconsistent and morally repulsive, two things we hope to avoid in our book.

I'll agree with you regarding the old testiment, I never saw anyone's fascination with the old testiment. It always seemed to me like christians were buying a brand new television, but in order to decipher how to use it were reading the instruction manual for the one their new model just made obsolete. However, the new testiment when read under the right state of mind is an excellent read. Really not the issue here.

I just don't see how you're proving anything by writing a fake religious text that doesn't sound like a religious text with 40 people. I'm sure it's been done before, and it didn't prove anything then. someone please explain this to me

[b] quote:

Regarding Jaryohem063's faith, I can attest to the fact that he has cleaned up his life after converting to Mormonism, and seems happier. This doesn't negate the fact that I am convinced his faith is completely irrational.

Good enough for me.

quote:Originally posted by Jaryohem063:

Sorry, What I meant to say was that anyone who needs scientific proof really doesn't have any faith. Faith is belief in the absence of proof. Anyone who believes that out there proof exists that the bible is divinely inspired is out of their minds. "Proof" of divine anything exists only within the individual.

And jesus christ ian, If you'd check the score here, I'm doing my best to be on your side. I'm trying to help you prove that the bible's authorship proves nothing. My above post which you so rudely ripped into shreads was an attempt to explain in rational terms why a devout mormon would throw his hat in with a crowd of atheists in an quest to cast doubt on the divinity of one of our holiest books.

I'll tell you right now that I have no tangible proof of the divinity of the book of mormon, and that I never have. If I were to explain to you why I believe what I believe you would not understand and you would laugh. Do not believe that because you are a "rational atheist" that you are somehow better than us lowlife christians, because that makes you no better than digital savior. She carries that same sort of smug attitude toward her beliefs that you do towards yours.

I may believe in odd things which make no sense.

I may not have any emperical evidence which I can point to in order to prove my claims.

I may be wasting my time and money on a God which you are sure does not exist.

But You can go ahead and ask jsaxton14 this, as he's the only one here with firsthand knowledge of all of this, but I am much better off being mormon than not. I'm far more focused, I don't do drugs, I dont waste my life with alcohol, and damnit, I'm far happier than I was beforehand. If on my deathbed I find out that you were right all along, I will regret nothing.

If you want my help I will still give it for the reasons I stated above. I can say without ego that you need people like me if you plan to prove anything with this project, because your complete inability to think outside the box certainly does not make for very inspiring reading.

My point was that it's a good thing to question your beliefs. I'm sure you have reasons for your faith, but there is nothing bad about trying to actually figure out what's going on. You should never feel like questioning your beliefs would make you a bad person.

And I know you're on our side, I was only responding to that one statement because I think questioning beliefs is very important. I appreciate the help though, although I'm not quite sure how far along we are and who the next person is.

I'm glad it has cleaned up your life as well, although I think you should give yourself credit for having the willpower to stop all those things and become a better person.

And we are not collaborating. Nowhere on this page does it mention the contents of the actual story, and no one but the current writers have read it, so I really don't know why everyone keeps making comments on it if they haven't read it.

We are collaborating about the order in which people are writing. We are also arguing with DS and trying to point out the hundreds of contradictions in the bible which we hope to avoid. But we are not collaborating on the story itself - that is being sent to each writer in succession when it is there turn to write with no discussion.

Please, if you want to come in here and act like you know what is going on, try to learn exactly what the experiment is supposed to prove, before claiming that we are collaborating.

Well I'm somewhere on that list so I hope to at somepoint recieve the story at abrahimesker@hotmail.com then I will send it to Angryfemme who is next.

I think I'm after Graemy, I'll send it to you when I'm done

quote:Originally posted by Jaryohem063:

I just don't see how you're proving anything by writing a fake religious text that doesn't sound like a religious text with 40 people. I'm sure it's been done before, and it didn't prove anything then. someone please explain this to me

Often Christians make the claim, "Well, the Bible has over 40 unique authors, and no contradictions. Do you have any idea how amazing this is? The Bible must be divinely inspired." In fact, some imbecile does just that in this thread. The fruit of our labour will provide us with a sound rebuttal to this ridiculous claim.

quote:Originally posted by jsaxton14:

Often Christians make the claim, "Well, the Bible has over 40 unique authors, and no contradictions. Do you have any idea how amazing this is? The Bible must be divinely inspired." In fact, some imbecile does just that in this thread. The fruit of our labour will provide us with a sound rebuttal to this ridiculous claim.

I think 40 unique authors is more of a bad trait than a good one when dealing with a religious text.

There ARE contradictions which are explained away as copyist errors and misread text. "Human's are Fallible". Isn't that convenient.

I believe a book to be qualified in my mind needs to be brought by the Messenger of the Text, like Moses and the Original Torah or Muhammed and the Qur'an, there should just be a direct Prophet to Book correlation rather than 40 unique authors.

Is it so hard for 40 people to participate in writing a book, by simply reading what the last said one can avoid contradictions, even so the Bible contains contradictions.

Yeah, but if god can be assed to inspire 40 differant authors, why can't he be assed to make sure nothing gets lost in translation?

ok i have sent it to piewalker.

Arrrrghhh! I knew this was going to fall on my vacation. Abrahim is after piewalker, I'm after Abrahim...

Would someone farther down the list care to swap spots with me ifAbrahim happens to finish his portion before I leave?? I'll be gone from Monday the 21st - Monday the 28th.

anyone? anyone?

I've sent it to Abrahim, good luck