It is my knowledge that Jesus was sent down from heaven to earth where he would die to atone for our sins.

Now my question is why would god send his own son to die if he is omnipotent and could control the situation in antoher way not involving the death of his only son.



and another question, for what sins did man do that deserved the death of god's son?

I don't understand why god would kill his son to "save us" from our sins when he could obviously do it in a diffrent manner.

Coming from a Christian that doesn't believe a lot of shit... Because humans can understand death more than a hug or something??? Or because it shows more. Idk, but it has gotten a lot of people to believe in it.

If Jesus didn't die in the way he did his story and teachings wouldn't have survived the test of time like it has.

His willingness to go through with what he went through showed passion for what he believed in.

If a guy is so faithful that he goes through an experience like that then maybe there really is something in what he says.

[This message has been edited by ---Beany--- (edited 07-31-2006).]

I find it strange that when Abraham was ordered by GOd to sacrifice his son, and his son didn't question it, BUT when Jesus was to be killed on the cross, Jesus asks why his 'father' had forsaken him.....

Firstly God is based around two things justice and love. So we can begin with the original sin, which was when man first disobeyed for God. Sin by definition has no scale before God sin is sin. You could kill a man and its just as bad as if you lie. God is perfect. Now to enter Heaven you too have to be perfect. No one is perfect, no human could ever be perfect. So this is where Jesus comes in, only a perfect sacrific can make up for mans sin. Jesus who was God in mans flesh was perfect, because he was God. Now the reason for this scarific having to be made was the need for some one to take our place, to paay the price of sin. Jesus was the only sacrific that God could accept. A price had to be paid and he paid it. Now why couldn't someone else take the place? Well when you clean something you use clean water, you can't use grease filled water to wash glasses and epect them to be clean. Why did God send Jesus? Because it was the only way possible. It shows Gods love for us that he would kill his own son to free us from a debt we could never pay. A thing that alot of Christians don't seem to realise is that they are just as bad as the rest of the world, and that they have no right to judge anyone.

3D ghost,

Very well put, and I too think it is nonsense that Christians think themselves any better then other sinners.

quote:Originally posted by 3D_Ghost:

Firstly God is based around two things justice and love. So we can begin with the original sin, which was when man first disobeyed for God. Sin by definition has no scale before God sin is sin. You could kill a man and its just as bad as if you lie. God is perfect. Now to enter Heaven you too have to be perfect. No one is perfect, no human could ever be perfect. So this is where Jesus comes in, only a perfect sacrific can make up for mans sin. Jesus who was God in mans flesh was perfect, because he was God. Now the reason for this scarific having to be made was the need for some one to take our place, to paay the price of sin. Jesus was the only sacrific that God could accept. A price had to be paid and he paid it. Now why couldn't someone else take the place? Well when you clean something you use clean water, you can't use grease filled water to wash glasses and epect them to be clean. Why did God send Jesus? Because it was the only way possible. It shows Gods love for us that he would kill his own son to free us from a debt we could never pay. A thing that alot of Christians don't seem to realise is that they are just as bad as the rest of the world, and that they have no right to judge anyone.

Firstly thank you for that great explantion but one question still remains. When you say a price had to be paid, couldn't the omnipotent god just have paid in a diffrent manner not involving the cruel death of his son?

quote:

If Jesus didn't die in the way he did his story and teachings wouldn't have survived the test of time like it has.

His willingness to go through with what he went through showed passion for what he believed in.

If a guy is so faithful that he goes through an experience like that then maybe there really is something in what he says.

That is actully logical, thank you.

publicity stun

3D ghost... all sins arent the same... killing is much worse and is called a mortal sin... lieing would be a veinial(wrong spelling) sin.

and also christians are "better" as in credentials to get into heaven because we believe in one god, the father almighty. If you choose not to believe, it is a sin

quote:"If Jesus didn't die in the way he did his story and teachings wouldn't have survived the test of time like it has."

"If King Arthur didn't die in the way he did his story and teachings wouldn't have survived the test of time like it has."

You're a moron. Never breed.

[This message has been edited by Albatross (edited 08-01-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by poolshark:



Firstly thank you for that great explantion but one question still remains. When you say a price had to be paid, couldn't the omnipotent god just have paid in a diffrent manner not involving the cruel death of his son?

To quote the Bible, "the wages of sin is death" Romans 6:23. To pay for there had to be a perfect sacrific. Because of Gods character justice had to be done.

quote:Originally posted by devils91323:

3D ghost... all sins arent the same... killing is much worse and is called a mortal sin... lieing would be a veinial(wrong spelling) sin.

What I ment was that sin is sin and it must be paid for, however we can't hope to do that. There is only one sin that is unforgivable, blasphmy of the holy spirit, and you die after that.

quote:Originally posted by devils91323:

and also christians are "better" as in credentials to get into heaven because we believe in one god, the father almighty. If you choose not to believe, it is a sin

Wrong christians are no better than anyone else. The only way to get into heaven is to believe in the death and resurction of Jesus. Believing that he died in your place to pay the price for you sins and that rose again conquring death. Repenting is not a once a week thing its a life style.

quote:Originally posted by Albatross:

"If King Arthur didn't die in the way he did his story and teachings wouldn't have survived the test of time like it has."

You're a moron. Never breed.



Careful, you're running the risk of actually saying something. Quit now or you may find yourself facing adult conversation.

Haha, Albatross, come now, there is no reason for violent conversation. Why hostility? prove yourself and that your statement is not idiocy as well if you are claiming that someone elses statement is. There is no need for degrading someone.

3D again I agree with you, are you a certain denomination? or what church do you go to? or are you even a Christian?

Devils,

Honestly that does not hold true at all. Please make sure you are looking a scripture and not dogmatics. Peoples oppinions mean nothing over Gods word, so dont state your oppinion, especially if you are speaking as a Christian. 3D has stated truth, and I will as well. Christians are no better then anyone else. We are sinners just the same. True, we have been cleansed and are cleansed daily by that beautiful baptism that drowns that old adam. But that does not make us better. Jesus himself ate with tax collector and other "sinners" so to speak. We are never considered better. We are here to serve others, so do not assume that because you are a christian you are somehow better then the next person. And all evil is the same in Gods eyes, it is evil, one sin causes condemnation, and as stated earlier the "wages of sin is death" not just murder is a mortal sin, all sins are mortal sins. There are no degrees.

So basically, most people believe that Jesus died because he had to make a lasting impression that would keep his story alive through the generations. Even though he was resurrected and returned to his heavenly kingdom making his sacrifice non-existent.

Well, there is one thing you people forget. If it weren't for the Roman Empire, you would have no idea who Jesus Christ was, and even if you did, you would probably be 100% convinced that the bible was all bullshit and not believe one goddamned word of it, just like me.

quote: To quote the Bible, "the wages of sin is death" Romans 6:23. To pay for there had to be a perfect sacrific. Because of Gods character justice had to be done.

Couldn't the omnipotent god have rephrased the bible so that there hadn't have to be a perfect sacrifice thus saving his son from death? I think god would like to have saved his son from dying the painful death he had.

Ra-deas,

Give me proof that the Bible is false. You can not just state something as truth if you have no evidence.

Poolshark,

It does not matter if it is written or not, truth is truth, we deserved nothign but death, and a perfect sacrifice was needed. Whether or not that was written down is beside the point. Not that that is a bad question.

quote:Originally posted by Truth is all:

Ra-deas,

Give me proof that the Bible is false. You can not just state something as truth if you have no evidence.

Poolshark,

It does not matter if it is written or not, truth is truth, we deserved nothign but death, and a perfect sacrifice was needed. Whether or not that was written down is beside the point. Not that that is a bad question.

What would be proof that the Bible is False?

[quote0It does not matter if it is written or not, truth is truth, we deserved nothign but death, and a perfect sacrifice was needed. Whether or not that was written down is beside the point. Not that that is a bad question. [/quote]

Are you saying an OMNIPOTENT god could not change this truth. Inless some how that is out of an Omnipotent god's hands. Which would be a conflict of defnition.

quote:Originally posted by PoolShark:

[quote0It does not matter if it is written or not, truth is truth, we deserved nothign but death, and a perfect sacrifice was needed. Whether or not that was written down is beside the point. Not that that is a bad question.

Are you saying an OMNIPOTENT god could not change this truth. Inless some how that is out of an Omnipotent god's hands. Which would be a conflict of defnition.[/QUOTE]

oooh oooh i didn't read the whole thread but had to say this

if he's omnipotent, you can't say for sure he HASN'T changed the truth. countless times.

this is just the end result, or the current one, of the numerous variations that he's made you and your supposed memories go through

quote:Originally posted by Truth is all:

3D again I agree with you, are you a certain denomination? or what church do you go to? or are you even a Christian?



Yeah I'm a Christian. My church is part of Christian City Churches International.

quote:Originally posted by PoolShark:

Couldn't the omnipotent god have rephrased the bible so that there hadn't have to be a perfect sacrifice thus saving his son from death? I think god would like to have saved his son from dying the painful death he had.

The Bible came after Jesus. And as I said before God had to see Justice done. He had two options sacrifice his son and allow him to bear the sins of the world. Or do nothing and lose the creation he loves.

quote:The Bible came after Jesus. And as I said before God had to see Justice done. He had two options sacrifice his son and allow him to bear the sins of the world. Or do nothing and lose the creation he loves.

Or he could have let his son live by making it so that man never had orginal sin or that you wouldn't need to sacrifice a perfect being.

Jesus died to fulfill his goal... religious reform. He didn't really die for us, but rather died to correct the bastardization that has been bestowed upon his religion. Lo and behold, we have bastardized his religion by creating a new one. Then we blasphemy this new one by naming it after him, but write its doctrine based on the teachings of a man from Tarsus who never actually met Jesus rather than writing the doctrine based on Jesus' teachings.

I don't expect anyone to get what I'm saying, its just something one would pick up from studying the Bible at a scholarly level and applying logic rather than just reading it for guidance out of faith.

Trivia question:

Name the the famous artist known for starting his/her poetry readings and perhaps songs with the line "Jesus died for somebodys sins but not mine."

quote:Originally posted by Real.PUA:

Trivia question:

Name the the famous artist known for starting his/her poetry readings and perhaps songs with the line "Jesus died for somebodys sins but not mine."

Patti Smith is not a poet, well, not a very good one.

quote:Originally posted by postdiluvium:

Jesus died to fulfill his goal... religious reform. He didn't really die for us, but rather died to correct the bastardization that has been bestowed upon his religion. Lo and behold, we have bastardized his religion by creating a new one. Then we blasphemy this new one by naming it after him, but write its doctrine based on the teachings of a man from Tarsus who never actually met Jesus rather than writing the doctrine based on Jesus' teachings.

I don't expect anyone to get what I'm saying, its just something one would pick up from studying the Bible at a scholarly level and applying logic rather than just reading it for guidance out of faith.

Then why did he claim to be the Jewish messiah? Yes he spoke out against religion, and thats one of the things that annonys me about most christians. They have become religious, Jesus never wanted people to be religious. Yes alot of the earily church was established through paul. But he was originally killing christians.

quote:Originally posted by 3D_Ghost:

Then why did he claim to be the Jewish messiah?

Care to quote the exact Bible passage where he actually claims to be the Jewish Messiah? No metaphorical stuff, either. I want a literal "I am your Messiah" kind of quote.

quote:Originally posted by 3D_Ghost:

Wrong christians are no better than anyone else. The only way to get into heaven is to believe in the death and resurction of Jesus. Believing that he died in your place to pay the price for you sins and that rose again conquring death. Repenting is not a once a week thing its a life style.

So God would send a person who says "Worship only God and do Right" to hell if he didn't accept that the man who was Jesus was the son of the all mighty, who is FAR BEYOND having sons and is not a man.

We'll see.

quote:Originally posted by 3D_Ghost:

The Bible came after Jesus. And as I said before God had to see Justice done. He had two options sacrifice his son and allow him to bear the sins of the world. Or do nothing and lose the creation he loves.

You make God seem like a limited human being.

For God the All Mighty it is a simple matter of BE and it IS. God has no sons, and God is not limited by ANYTHING. Lose the Creation he loves? God at a loss? These concepts are blasphemous to the concept of God and far below the greatness of the supreme.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

You make God seem like a limited human being.

For God the All Mighty it is a simple matter of BE and it IS. God has no sons, and God is not limited by ANYTHING. Lose the Creation he loves? God at a loss? These concepts are blasphemous to the concept of God and far below the greatness of the supreme.

Exactly

quote:Originally posted by PoolShark:

It is my knowledge that Jesus was sent down from heaven to earth where he would die to atone for our sins.

Now my question is why would god send his own son to die if he is omnipotent and could control the situation in antoher way not involving the death of his only son.



and another question, for what sins did man do that deserved the death of god's son?

I don't understand why god would kill his son to "save us" from our sins when he could obviously do it in a diffrent manner.



If one plans to follow "god," questioning his actions wouldnt be the best way to start. silly christian.

quote:Originally posted by Truth is all:

You can not just state something as truth if you have no evidence.



Does this strike anyone else as hysterically funny coming from a theist?

quote:Originally posted by Kallisti:

Does this strike anyone else as hysterically funny coming from a theist?

Yes it does but regardless of who it comes from a request for evidence is never foolish.

Postdiluvium,

WOW, that was extremely arrogant haha. I guess since I am not really on your level or as scholarly as you I just can not understand. O or maybe what you are saying is wrong. Give me evidence that the Bible is wrong, specifically the Gospels, and how many times must hermenuetics be discussed before you get the point? Scripture interprets Scripture. And again with the Paul thing, ALL the early Church fathers excepted Pauls teachings or a majority of them. As for evidence of the messiah ... so much for you being "well versed" honestly next time if you are claiming to be a sholar at something, then know it. John 4: 25-26,"The woman said to him, 'I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ). When he comes, he will tell us all things.' Jesus said to her, 'I who speak to you am he.'" Again, please do some deeper research. The Gospels all show Christ as the Son of God and that He died for OUR sins.

Kallisti,

The Bible is what I stand by and I have evidence for that claim. I believe it to be truth and I believe that for a reason. Just because I am a Christian does not mean I am irrational, so please don't make assumptions like that, I consider you to be rational as well, so show me evidence of the Bible being a false hitorical account and you win.

quote: I have evidence for that claim

Then by all means, show your evidence.

quote:Originally posted by Vargv:

Coming from a Christian that doesn't believe a lot of shit... Because humans can understand death more than a hug or something??? Or because it shows more. Idk, but it has gotten a lot of people to believe in it.

Ok here are some deals:

Believe in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, Go to church if you can once in a while and follow the ten commandments, you are a sinner and will always be a sinner but through Jesus's forgiveness you will get to Heaven otherwise you will burn in hell.

or

Follow alot of traditions with no real concept of a heaven or hell but following them because that's what you're supposed to do!

or

Strive to be as good as you can possibly be, avoid sin, pray 5 times a day, don't break the revelations, read the holy book and follow it closely to achieve paradise in the afterlife.

or

Meditate, follow the eightfold path to attempt to achieve Nirvana which is Non Being sometimes thought of as a kind of Trascendant Ultimate Bliss.

To put it simply, Christianity is probably the easiest religion to follow for most people and that is why it has been widely sucessful. From what I've heard by most modern people who call themselves Christians, they don't really have to DO anything other than believing Jesus is their lord and savior the son of God who died for their sins, and by doing that they let the holy spirit in them and get a ticket to heaven after death.

Judaism is in modern times primarilly largely traditions which one follows without any strong guarantee of a paradise and no strong fear of a punishment either, you do it because that is what you do to be a Jew, that seems to be the impression most modern Jews I've spoken to have.

Islam is seen by many including some who claim membership, to be a somewhat difficult religion to follow, it requires that a member not eat pork, drink alcohol, gamble, also that a member must fast 30 days in the prescribed month (Ramadan: consisting of no food or drink from dusk till dawn every day for 30 days in that month), that a member must perform the ritual ablution (wuuduu: washing the hands up to the elbows, the face, feet up the ankles) and performing worship (meditative excercise: salat: consisting of praises, standing, bowing, kneeling, and prostration) 5 times a day (before sunrise, noon, afternoon, after sunset, night), and that a member must be a good person always if they are able and do right (this is sort of commonly held by Christians as well, though many believe they are bound to sin and have no real chance to be so wonderful, their only chance is through Jesus). In Modern times a portion of the Muslim population are adopting traditions that originate from early Jewish and Christian converts which are found in books called Hadiths.

Buddhism in modern times is followed as a basic outline for behavior, an encouragement for meditation and reflection, and an attempt to transcend the hustle bustle throughout ones daily activities. I find that Buddhism is somewhat vague as to the benefit of the final goal, which is to transcend all suffering through reaching Nirvana. Various sects and individuals have different ideas of what Nirvana may be or how exactly one specifically achieves the state. In otherwords, the eightfold path and teachings of Buddha and later teachers are a basic outline and everyones path to Nirvana is different: One man's journey may not apply to another.

Modern Christians and Buddhists, perhaps those not vastly educated in their religions but still believers and followers for the most part, find it the easiest, in one, all one has to do is believe in Jesus as the son and the one who died for their sins, in the other all one should do, to achieve bliss and non suffering, is follow the eightfold path and teachings outline by Buddha basically.

Islam and Judaism might be a little more difficult for some to follow as it requires certain procedures and behaviors to be performed in order to be a consistant member, for Islam it is the prayers 5 times a day and avoiding pork and alcohol. Judaism also has ablution and prayers, the number of which is 3, but many modern people who claim to be Jewish do not perform these but may still perform other basic traditions and avoid pork as well as keep the Sabbath.

quote:Originally posted by Truth is all:

Postdiluvium,

WOW, that was extremely arrogant haha. I guess since I am not really on your level or as scholarly as you I just can not understand. O or maybe what you are saying is wrong. Give me evidence that the Bible is wrong, specifically the Gospels, and how many times must hermenuetics be discussed before you get the point? Scripture interprets Scripture. And again with the Paul thing, ALL the early Church fathers excepted Pauls teachings or a majority of them. As for evidence of the messiah ... so much for you being "well versed" honestly next time if you are claiming to be a sholar at something, then know it. John 4: 25-26,"The woman said to him, 'I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ). When he comes, he will tell us all things.' Jesus said to her, 'I who speak to you am he.'" Again, please do some deeper research. The Gospels all show Christ as the Son of God and that He died for OUR sins.

Kallisti,

The Bible is what I stand by and I have evidence for that claim. I believe it to be truth and I believe that for a reason. Just because I am a Christian does not mean I am irrational, so please don't make assumptions like that, I consider you to be rational as well, so show me evidence of the Bible being a false hitorical account and you win.

The Bible is full of contradictions, old testament and new.

Now let me copy paste something for you, you might want to get your Bible out and prepare to do battle with a list of contradictions from the Bible.

TRUTH, THIS IS FOR YOU MOST SPECIFICALLY SINCE YOU DEPEND ON AND TRUST THE BIBLE, PLEASE READ THE LIST OF CONTRADICTIONS WITHOUT SKIMMING AND FURTHERMORE, IF YOU FEEL THE NEED TO MAKE SURE, VERIFY THEM WITH YOUR BIBLE.

101 Bible Contradictions:

"The Challenge

The question which I present before my reader is: "If I can show you 101 contradictions in the Bible will you listen to what I have to say?" Will you agree to this challenge?. If so read on. If not, thank you for reading this far.

The objective of this little booklet is to present to my readers 101 contradictions in the Bible. In doing so I want to promote the idea that many things which you may have always taken for granted as being true, may not be necessarily so. If this is the case, then the question arises "is there some source which can be utilized in order to find the truth without us being presented with illogical explanations and contradictions? I personally believe this reliable source exists, but first I have to show you that the source which you now depend upon, namely The Bible, is not reliable. I will challenge the reliability of the Bible by demonstrating 101 of its' contradictions. Now if someone were to give testimony in a court of law and he or she were found to give 101 contradictory statements under oath, the testimony of that person would be rejected. I think we can all agree that this is only reasonable. Why not use the same standard when judging the reliability of the statements of The Bible?

Let it be made clear right at the beginning, I have no desire to offend anyone's religious convictions. We have a God given right to believe what we want and I would never try to take that away from anyone. Additionally, if someone is offended by this book then toss it in the trash, or pass it on to someone else. The main thing I want you to do is use your mind and don't be guided by emotions alone. God has given you a brain, USE IT!!!

If you have read this far you must either be intrigued by my challenge or you are one of those "Bible Thumpers" who is convinced that I will never find contradictions in the Bible and if I do find 101 then there is an easy explanation for each one of them. He will be quick to quote the verse from the Bible in 2 Timothy 3:16 where it says:" All scripture is given by inspiration of God..." I like explanations. I find people who argue that black is white and day is night to be quite interesting. On this point Donald Morgan had this to say in an article entitled "Introduction to the Bible and Biblical Problems":

"While Biblicists are capable of offering some sort of explanation for nearly any biblical problem that can be uncovered, such explanations should be unnecessary. The point is not whether some explanation can be conceived, but rather that a perfect and loving God certainly could, should, and would do a much better job of it were he to have anything to do with the writing of a book."

Let us begin. You will need a Bible to look up the references.

Please do not take my word for anything without confirming it with sources.

Any argument should be examined throughly before accepting or rejecting its' claims.

To do otherwise is to rely on the fickle emotions of the heart even when they run contrary to all rationality.

Additionally, to my Christian readers who may be a bit intimidated by the this booklet, they should remember that according to Acts 17:11,

Paul praised the Jews at Beroea because they "searched the scriptures daily" in order to see if the things Paul was preaching to them "were so". (Acts 17:11).

That's all I am asking you to do here - read the "scriptures" and see if what the Church has been telling you is really "so".

As Isaiah 1:18 says: "Come now, let us reason together."

101 Clear Contradictions In The Bible

Contradiction #1

Who incited David to count the fighting men of Israel? (a) God did (2 Samuel 24:1) (b) Satan did (1 Chronicles 21:1).

Contradiction #2

In that count how many fighting men were found in Israel? (a) Eight hundred thousand (2 Samuel 24:9). (b) One million, one hundred thousand (1 Chronicles 21:5).

Contradiction #3

How many fighting men were found in Judah? (a) Five hundred thousand (2 Samuel 24:9). (b) Four hundred and seventy thousand (1 Chronicles 21:5).

Contradiction #4

God sent his prophet to threaten David with how many years of famine? (a) Seven (2 Samuel 24:13). (b) Three (1 Chronicles 21:12).

Contradiction #5

How old was Ahaziah when he began to rule over Jerusalem? (a) Twenty-two (2 Kings 8:26). (b) Forty-two (2 Chronicles 22:2).

Contradiction #6

How old was Jehoiachin when he became king of Jerusalem? (a) Eighteen (2 Kings 24:8). (b) Eight (2 Chronicles 36:9).

Contradiction #7

How long did he rule over Jerusalem? (a) Three months (2 Kings 24:8). (b) Three months and ten days (2 Chronicles 36:9).

Contradiction #8

The chief of the mighty men of David lifted up his spear and killed how many men at one time? (a) Eight hundred (2 Samuel 23:8). (b) Three hundred (1 Chronicles 11:11).

Contradiction #9

When did David bring the Ark of the Covenant to Jerusalem? Before defeating the Philistines or after? (a) After (2 Samuel 5 and 6). (b) Before (1 Chronicles 13 and 14).

Contradiction #10

How many pairs of clean animals did God tell Noah to take into the Ark? (a) Two (Genesis 6:19, 20). (b) Seven (Genesis 7:2). But despite this last instruction only two pairs went into the ark (Genesis 7:8, 9).

Contradiction #11

When David defeated the King of Zobah, how many horsemen did he capture? (a) One thousand and seven hundred (2 Samuel 8:4). (b) Seven thousand (1 Chronicles 18:4).

Contradiction #12

How many stalls for horses did Solomon have? (a) Forty thousand (1 Kings 4:26). (b) Four thousand (2 chronicles 9:25).

Contradiction #13

In what year of King Asa's reign did Baasha, King of Israel die? (a) Twenty-sixth year (1 Kings 15:33 - 16:8). (b) Still alive in the thirty-sixth year (2 Chronicles 16:1).

Contradiction #14

How many overseers did Solomon appoint for the work of building the temple? (a) Three thousand six hundred (2 Chronicles 2:2) (b) Three thousand three hundred (1 Kings 5:16).

Contradiction #15

Solomon built a facility containing how many baths? (a) Two thousand (1 Kings 7:26). (b) Over three thousand (2 Chronicles 4:5).

Contradiction #16

Of the Israelites who were freed from the Babylonian captivity, how many were the children of Pahrath-Moab? (a) Two thousand eight hundred and twelve (Ezra 2:6). (b) Two thousand eight hundred and eighteen (Nehemiah 7:11).

Contradiction #17

How many were the children of Zattu? (a) Nine hundred and forty-five (Ezra 2:8) (b) Eight hundred and forty-five (Nehemiah 7:13).

Contradiction #18

How many were the children of Azgad? (a) One thousand two hundred and twenty-two (Ezra 2:12). (b) Two thousand three hundred and twenty-two (Nehemiah 7:17).

Contradiction #19

How many were the children of Adin? (a) Four hundred and fifty-four (Ezra 2:15). (b) Six hundred and fifty-five (Nehemiah 7:20).

Contradiction #20

How many were the children of Hashum? (a) Two hundred and twenty-three (Ezra 2:19). (b) Three hundred and twenty-eight (Nehemiah 7:22).

Contradiction #21

How many were the children of Bethel and Ai? (a) Two hundred and twenty-three (Ezra 2:28). (b) One hundred and twenty-three (Nehemiah 7:32).

Contradiction #22

Ezra 2:64 and Nehemiah 7:66 agree that the total number of the whole assembly was 42,360. Yet the numbers do not add up to anything close. The totals obtained from each book is as follows: (a) 29,818 (Ezra). (b) 31, 089 (Nehemiah).

Contradiction #23

How many singers accompanied the assembly? (a) Two hundred (Ezra 2:65). (b) Two hundred and forty-five (Nehemiah 7:67).

Contradiction #24

What was the name of King Abijah's mother? (a) Michaiah, daughter of Uriel of Gibeah (2 Chronicles 13:2). (b) Maachah, daughter of Absalom (2 Chronicles 11:20). But Absalom had only one daughter whose name was Tamar (2 Samuel 14:27).

Contradiction #25

Did Joshua and the Israelites capture Jerusalem? (a) Yes (Joshua 10:23, 40). (b) No (Joshua 15:63).

Contradiction #26

Who was the father of Joseph, husband of Mary? (a) Jacob (Matthew 1:16). (b) Heli (Luke 3:23).

Contradiction #27

Jesus descended from which son of David? (a) Solomon (Matthew 1:6). (b) Nathan (Luke 3:31).

Contradiction #28

Who was the father of Shealtiel? (a) Jechoniah (Matthew 1:12). (b) Neri (Luke 3:27).

Contradiction #29

Which son of Zerubbabel was an ancestor of Jesus Christ? (a) Abiud (Matthew 1:13). (b) Rhesa (Luke 3:27). But the seven sons of Zerubbabel are as follows: I. Meshullam, ii. Hananiah, iii. Hashubah, iv. Ohel, v. Berechiah, vi. Hasadiah, viii. Jushabhesed (1 Chronicles 3:19, 20). The names Abiud and Rhesa do not fit in anywhere.

Contradiction #30

Who was the father of Uzziah? (a) Joram (Matthew 1:8). (b) Amaziah (2 Chronicles 26:1).

Contradiction #31

Who as the father of Jechoniah? (a) Josiah (Matthew 1:11). (b) Jehoiakim (1 Chronicles 3:16).

Contradiction #32

How many generations were there from the Babylonian exile until Christ? (a) Matthew says fourteen (Matthew 1:17). (b) But a careful count of the generations reveals only thirteen (see Matthew 1:12-16).

Contradiction #33

Who was the father of Shelah? (a) Cainan (Luke 3:35-36). (b) Arphaxad (Genesis 11:12).

Contradiction #34

Was John the Baptist Elijah who was to come? (a) Yes (Matthew 11:14, 17:10-13). (b) No (John 1:19-21).

Contradiction #35

Would Jesus inherit David's throne? (a) Yes. So said the angel (Luke 1:32). (b) No, since he is a descendant of Jehoiakim (see Matthew 1:11, 1 Chronicles 3:16). And Jehoiakim was cursed by God so that none of his descendants can sit upon David's throne (Jeremiah 36:30).

Contradiction #36

Jesus rode into Jerusalem on how many animals? (a) One - a colt (Mark 11:7; cf. Luke 19:35). And they brought the colt to Jesus and threw their garments on it; and he sat upon it." (b) Two - a colt and an ass (Matthew 21:7). They brought the ass and the colt and put their garments on them and he sat thereon."

Contradiction #37

How did Simon Peter find out that Jesus was the Christ? (a) By a revelation from heaven (Matthew16:17). (b) His brother Andrew told him (John 1:41).

Contradiction #38

Where did Jesus first meet Simon Peter and Andrew? (a) By the sea of Galilee (Matthew 4:18-22). (b) On the banks of river Jordan (John 1:42). After that, Jesus decided to go to Galilee (John 1:43).

Contradiction #39

When Jesus met Jairus was Jairus' daughter already dead? (a) Yes. Matthew 9:18 quotes him as saying, "My daughter has just died." (b) No. Mark 5:23 quotes him as saying, "My little daughter is at the point of death."

Contradiction #40

Did Jesus allow his disciples to keep a staff on their journey? (a) Yes (Mark 6:8). (b) No (Matthew 10:9; Luke 9:3).

Contradiction #41

Did Herod think that Jesus was John the baptist? (a) Yes (Matthew 14:2; Mark 6:16). (b) No (Luke 9:9)

Contradiction #42

Did John the Baptist recognise Jesus before his baptism? (a) Yes (Matthew 3:13-14). (b) No (John 1:32, 33).

Contradiction #43

Did John the Baptist recognize Jesus after his baptism? (a) Yes (John 1:32, 33). (b) No (Matthew 11:2).

Contradiction #44

According to the Gospel of John, what did Jesus say about bearing his own witness? (a) "If I bear witness to myself, my testimony is not true"(John 5:31). (b) "Even if I do bear witness to myself, my testimony is true" (John 8:14).

Contradiction #45

When Jesus entered Jerusalem did he cleanse the temple that same day? (a) Yes (Matthew 21:12). (b) No. He went into the temple and looked around, but since it was very late he did nothing. Instead, he went to Bethany to spend the night and returned the next morning to cleanse the temple (Mark 11:1-17).

Contradiction #46

The Gospels say that Jesus cursed a fig tree. Did the tree wither at once? (a) Yes. (Matthew 21:19). (b) No. It withered overnight (Mark 11:20).

Contradiction #47

Did Judas kiss Jesus? (a) Yes (Matthew 26:48-50). (b) No. Judas could not get close enough to Jesus to kiss him (John 18:3-12).

Contradiction #48

What did Jesus say about Peter's denial? (a) "The cock will not crow till you have denied me three times" (John 13:38). (b) "Before the cock crows twice you will deny me three times" (Mark 14:30). When the cock crowed once, the three denials were not yet complete (see Mark 14:72). Therefore prediction (a) failed.

Contradiction #49

Did Jesus bear his own cross? (a) Yes (John 19:17). (b) No (Matthew 27:31-32).

Contradiction #50

Did Jesus die before the curtain of the temple was torn? (a) Yes (Matthew 27:50-51; Mark 15:37-38). (b) No. After the curtain was torn, then Jesus crying with a loud voice, said, "Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit!" And having said this he breathed his last (Luke 23:45-46).

Contradiction #51

Did Jesus say anything secretly? (a) No. "I have said nothing secretly" (John 18:20). (b) Yes. "He did not speak to them without a parable, but privately to his own disciples he explained everything" (Mark 4:34). The disciples asked him "Why do you speak to them in parables?" He said, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given" (Matthew 13:10-11).

Contradiction #52

Where was Jesus at the sixth hour on the day of the crucifixion? (a) On the cross (Mark 15:23). (b) In Pilate's court (John 19:14).

Contradiction #53

The gospels say that two thieves were crucified along with Jesus. Did both thieves mock Jesus? (a) Yes (Mark 15:32). (b) No. One of them mocked Jesus, the other defended Jesus (Luke 23:43).

Contradiction #54

Did Jesus ascend to Paradise the same day of the crucifixion? (a) Yes. He said to the thief who defended him, "Today you will be with me in Paradise" (Luke 23:43). (b) No. He said to Mary Magdelene two days later, "I have not yet ascended to the Father" (John 20:17).

Contradiction #55

When Paul was on the road to Damascus he saw a light and heard a voice. Did those who were with him hear the voice? (a) Yes (Acts 9:7). (b) No (Acts 22:9).

Contradiction #56

When Paul saw the light he fell to the ground. Did his traveling companions also fall to the ground? (a) Yes (Acts 26:14). (b) No (Acts 9:7).

Contradiction #57

Did the voice spell out on the spot what Paul's duties were to be? (a) Yes (Acts 26:16-18). (b) No. The voice commanded Paul to go into the city of Damascus and there he will be told what he must do. (Acts 9:7; 22:10).

Contradiction #58

When the Israelites dwelt in Shittin they committed adultery with the daughters of Moab. God struck them with a plague. How many people died in that plague? (a) Twenty-four thousand (Numbers 25:1 and 9). (b) Twenty-three thousand (1 Corinthians 10:8).

Contradiction #59

How many members of the house of Jacob came to Egypt? (a) Seventy souls (Genesis 46:27). (b) Seventy-five souls (Acts 7:14).

Contradiction #60

What did Judas do with the blood money he received for betraying Jesus? (a) He bought a field (Acts 1:18). (b) He threw all of it into the temple and went away. The priests could not put the blood money into the temple treasury, so they used it to buy a field to bury strangers (Matthew 27:5).

Contradiction #61

How did Judas die? (a) After he threw the money into the temple he went away and hanged himself (Matthew 27:5). (b) After he bought the field with the price of his evil deed he fell headlong and burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out (Acts 1:18).

Contradiction #62

Why is the field called "Field of Blood"? (a) Because the priests bought it with the blood money (Matthew 27:8). (b) Because of the bloody death of Judas therein (Acts 1:19).

Contradiction #63

Who is a ransom for whom? (a) "The Son of Man came . . . to give his life as a ransom for many" (Mark 10:45). " . . . Christ Jesus who gave himself as a ransom for all . . . " (1 Timothy 2:5-6). (b) "The wicked is a ransom for the righteous, and the faithless for the upright" (Proverbs 21:18).

Contradiction #64

Is the law of Moses useful? (a) Yes. "All scripture is . . . profitable . . ." (2 Timothy 3:16). (b) No. ". . . A former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness . . . " (Hebrews 7:18).

Contradiction #65

What was the exact wording on the cross? (a) "This is Jesus the King of the Jews" (Matthew 27:37). (b) "The King of the Jews" (Mark 15:26) (c) "This is the King of the Jews" (Luke 23:38). (d) "Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews" (John 19:19).

Contradiction #66

Did Herod want to kill John the Baptist? (a) Yes (Matthew 14:5). (b) No. It was Herodias, the wife of Herod who wanted to kill him. But Herod knew that he was a righteous man and kept him safe (Mark 6:20).

Contradiction #67

Who was the tenth disciple of Jesus in the list of twelve? (a) Thaddaeus (Matthew 10:1-4; Mark 3:13-19). (b) Judas son of James is the corresponding name in Luke's gospel (Luke 6:12-16).

Contradiction #68

Jesus saw a man sitting at the tax collector's office and called him to be his disciple. What was his name? (a) Matthew (Matthew 9:9). (b) Levi (Mark 2:14; Luke 5:27).

Contradiction #69

Was Jesus crucified on the daytime before the Passover meal or the daytime after? (a) After (Mark 14:12-17). (b) Before. Before the feast of the Passover (John 13:1) Judas went out at night (John 13:30). The other disciples thought he was going out to buy supplies to prepare for the Passover meal (John 13:29). When Jesus was arrested, the Jews did not enter Pilate's judgement hall because they wanted to stay clean to eat the Passover (John 18:28). When the judgement was pronounced against Jesus, it was about the sixth hour on the day of Preparation for the Passover (John 19:14).

Contradiction #70

Did Jesus pray to The Father to prevent the crucifixion? (a) Yes. (Matthew 26:39; Mark 14:36; Luke 22:42). (b) No. (John 12:27).

Contradiction #71

In the gospels which say that Jesus prayed to avoid the cross, how many times did he move away from his disciples to pray? (a) Three (Matthew 26:36-46 and Mark 14:32-42). (b) One. No opening is left for another two times. (Luke 22:39-46).

Contradiction #72

Matthew and Mark agree that Jesus went away and prayed three times. What were the words of the second prayer? (a) Mark does not give the words but he says that the words were the same as the first prayer (Mark 14:39). (b) Matthew gives us the words, and we can see that they are not the same as in the first (Matthew 26:42).

Contradiction #73

What did the centurion say when Jesus dies? (a) "Certainly this man was innocent" (Luke 23:47). (b) "Truly this man was the Son of God" (Mark 15:39).

Contradiction #74

When Jesus said "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" in what language did he speak? (a) Hebrew: the words are "Eli, Eli . . . " (Matthew 27:46). (b) Aramaic: the words are "Eloi, Eloi . . . " (Mark 15:34).

Contradiction #75

According to the gospels, what were the last words of Jesus before he died? (a) "Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit!" (Luke 23:46). (b) "It is finished" (John 19:30).

Contradiction #76

When Jesus entered Capernaum he healed the slave of a centurion. Did the centurion come personally to request Jesus for this? (a) Yes (Matthew 8:5). (b) No. He sent some elders of the Jews and his friends (Luke 7:3, 6).

Contradiction #77

(a) Adam was told that if and when he eats the forbidden fruit he would die the same day (Genesis 2:17). (b) Adam ate the fruit and went on to live to a ripe old age of 930 years (Genesis 5:5).

Contradiction #78

(a) God decided that the life-span of humans will be limited to 120 years (Genesis 6:3). (b) Many people born after that lived longer than 120. Arpachshad lived 438 years. His son Shelah lived 433 years. His son Eber lived 464 years, etc. (Genesis 11:12-16).

Contradiction #79

Apart from Jesus did anyone else ascend to heaven? (a) No (John 3:13). (b) Yes. "And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven" (2 Kings 2:11).

Contradiction #80

Who was high priest when David went into the house of God and ate the consecrated bread? (a) Abiathar (Mark 2:26). (b) Ahimelech, the father of Abiathar (1 Samuel 21:1; 22:20).

Contradiction #81

Was Jesus' body wrapped in spices before burial in accordance with Jewish burial customs? (a) Yes and his female disciples witnessed his burial (John 19:39-40). (b) No. Jesus was simply wrapped in a linen shroud. Then the women bought and prepared spices "so that they may go and anoint him [Jesus]" (Mark 16:1).

Contradiction #82

When did the women buy the spices? (a) After "the sabbath was past" (Mark 16:1). (b) Before the sabbath. The women "prepared spices and ointments." Then, "on the Sabbath they rested according to the commandment" (Luke 23:55 to 24:1).

Contradiction #83

At what time of day did the women visit the tomb? (a) "Toward the dawn" (Matthew 28:1). (b) "When the sun had risen" (Mark 16:2).

Contradiction #84

What was the purpose for which the women went to the tomb? (a) To anoint Jesus' body with spices (Mark 16:1;Luke 23:55 to 24:1). (b) To see the tomb. Nothing about spices here (Matthew 28:1). For no specified reason. In this gospel the wrapping with spices had been done before the sabbath (John 20:1).

Contradiction #85

A large stone was placed at the entrance of the tomb. Where was the stone when the women arrived? (a) They saw that the stone was "Rolled back" (Mark 16:4). They found the stone "rolled away from the tomb" (Luke 24:2). They saw that "the stone had been taken away from the tomb" (John 20:1) (b) As the women approached, an angel descended from heaven, rolled away the stone, and conversed with the women. Matthew made the women witness the spectacular rolling away of the stone (Matthew 28:1-6).

Contradiction #86

Did anyone tell the women what happened to Jesus' body? (a) Yes. "A young man in a white robe" (Mark 16:5). "Two men . . . in dazzling apparel" later described as angels (Luke 24:4 and 24:23). An angel - the one who rolled back the stone (Matthew 16:2). In each case the women were told that Jesus had risen from the dead (Matthew 28:7; Mark 16:6; Luke 24:5 footnote). (b) No. Mary met no one and returned saying, "They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid him" (John 20:2).

Contradiction #87

When did Mary Magdelene first meet the resurrected Jesus? And how did she react? (a) Mary and the other women met Jesus on their way back from their first and only visit to the tomb. They took hold of his feet and worshiped him (Matthew 28:9). (b) On her second visit to the tomb Mary met Jesus just outside the tomb. When she saw Jesus she did not recognize him. She mistook him for the gardener. She still thinks that Jesus' body is laid to rest somewhere and she demands to know where. But when Jesus said her name she at once recognized him and called him "Teacher." Jesus said to her, "Do not hold me . . . " (John 20:11 to 17).

Contradiction #88

What was Jesus' instruction for his disciples? (a) "Tell my brethren to go to Galilee, and there they will see me" (Matthew 28:10). (b) "Go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God" (John 20:17).

Contradiction #89

When did the disciples return to Galilee? (a) Immediately, because when they saw Jesus in Galilee "some doubted" (Matthew 28:17). This period of uncertainty should not persist. (b) After at least 40 days. That evening the disciples were still in Jerusalem (Luke 24:33). Jesus appeared to them there and told them, "stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high" (Luke 24:49). He was appearing to them "during forty days" (Acts 1:3), and "charged them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise . . . "(Acts 1:4).

Contradiction #90

To whom did the Midianites sell Joseph? (a) "To the Ishmaelites" (Genesis 37:28). (b) "To Potiphar, an officer of Pharoah" (Genesis 37:36).

Contradiction #91

Who brought Joseph to Egypt? (a) The Ishmaelites bought Joseph and then "took Joseph to Egypt" (Genesis 37:28). (b) "The Midianites had sold him in Egypt" (Genesis 37:36). Joseph said to his brothers "I am your brother, Joseph, whom you sold into Egypt" (Genesis 45:4).

Contradiction #92

Does God change his mind? (a) Yes. The word of the Lord came to Samuel: "I repent that I have made Saul King . . ." (1 Samuel 15:10 to 11). (b) No. God "will not lie or repent; for he is not a man, that he should repent" (1 Samuel 15:29). (c) Yes. "And the Lord repented that he had made Saul King over Israel" (1 Samuel 15:35). Notice that the above three quotes are all from the same chapter of the same book! In addition, the Bible shows that God repented on several other occasions: I. The Lord was sorry that he made man" (Genesis 6:6). " I am sorry that I have made them" (Genesis 6:7) ii."And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do to his people" (Exodus 32:14) iii.(Lots of other such references).

Contradiction #93

The Bible says that for each miracle Moses and Aaron demonstrated the same by their secret arts. Then comes the following feat: (a) Moses and Aaron converted all the available water into blood (Exodus 7:20-21). (b) The magicians did the same (Exodus 7:22). This is impossible, since there would have been no water left to convert into blood.

Contradiction #94

Who killed Goliath? (a) David (1 Samuel 17:23, 50). (b) Elhanan (2 Samuel 21:19).

Contradiction #95

Who killed Saul? (a) "Saul took his own sword and fell upon it. . . . Thus Saul died... (1 Samuel 31:4-6). (b) An Amalekite slew him (2 Samuel 1:1-16).

Contradiction #96

Does every man sin? (a) Yes. "There is no man who does not sin" (1 Kings 8:46; see also 2 Chronicles 6:36; Proverbs 20:9; Ecclesiastes 7:20; and 1 John 1:8-10). (b) No. True Christians cannot possibly sin, because they are the children of God.

Every one who believes that Jesus is the Christ is a child of God . . (1 John 5:1). "We should be called children of God; and so we are" (1 John 3:1). "He who loves is born of God" (1 John 4:7). "No one born of God commits sin; for God's nature abides in him, and he cannot sin because he is born of God" (1 John 3:9). But, then again, Yes! "If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" (1 John 1:8).

Contradiction #97

Who will bear whose burden? (a) "Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ" (Galatians 6:2). (b) "Each man will have to bear his own load" (Galatians 6:5).

Contradiction #98

How many disciples did Jesus appear to after his resurrection? (a) Twelve (1 Corinthians 15:5). (b) Eleven (Matthew 27:3-5 and Acts 1:9-26, see also Matthew 28:16; Mark 16:14 footnote; Luke 24:9; Luke 24:33).

Contradiction #99

Where was Jesus three days after his baptism? (a) After his baptism, "the spirit immediately drove him out into the wilderness. And he was in the wilderness forty days . . . (Mark 1:12-13). (b) Next day after the baptism, Jesus selected two disciples. Second day: Jesus went to Galilee — two more disciples. Third day: Jesus was at a wedding feast in Cana in Galilee (see John 1:35; 1:43; 2:1-11).

Contradiction #100

Was baby Jesus's life threatened in Jerusalem? (a) Yes, so Joseph fled with him to Egypt and stayed there until Herod died (Matthew 2:13 - 23). (b) No. The family fled nowhere. They calmly presented the child at the Jerusalem temple according to the Jewish customs and returned to Galilee (Luke 2:21-40).

Contradiction #101

When Jesus walked on water how did the disciples respond? (a) They worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God" (Matthew 14:33). (b) "They were utterly astounded, for they did not understand about the loaves, but their hearts were hardened" (Mark 6:51-52).



Conclusion: What I want to say

As I asked earlier, "If I can show you 101 contradictions in the Bible would you agree to listen to what I have to say?" I have presented the contradictions before you now the following is what I have to say. I promise not to be long-winded.

I mentioned earlier that I believe there is a source we can turn to where we can find the truth and know what God wants for us. The late Amed Deedat, a self-taught scholar of the Bible, had this to say in is little booklet "Is The Bible God's Word?":

How do we know that a book claimed to be from God is really the Book of God. One of the tests, is - the message emanating from an Omniscient (all knowing) Being MUST be consistent with itself. It ought to be free from all discrepancies and contradictions. (Pg.34)

Do you think that this a fair statement, the idea that something from God will not contain any contradictions? I think we can all agree that this is a fair statement. Given what Mr. Deedat has provided us with as an acid test as to the truth of a book which claims to be from God, let us now turn to the Holy Quran, the book Muslims claim is the word of God, and see what it has to say:

Do they not ponder over the Quran? Had it been from any other than God, surely there would have been many contradictions in it. (Quran Chapter 4:82)

Perhaps many of my readers have doubts that the Quran is the word of God. In this verse the reader is being admonished to consider the Quran by giving close attention to it , and to verify if our doubts are genuine and whether it is from God or not. We are asked to verify the authenticity of the words of the Holy Quran with a simple test - if it is from other than God there will many be discrepancies in it.

So now the responsibility is on us to take up this challenge and see if the Quran is from God or not. Now the "Bible Thumper" will of course be quick to attack the Quran even if he has not read it. But the fulfillment of this challenge necessitates that we actually pick the book up and read it. But not only read it but study and examine it with great care. Are you willing to take up this challenge, to read the Quran and see if there are any contradictions in it, or are you so unsure that you may not find the answer you are looking for that you will not bother trying at all? Go ahead, pick up the Quran today and see what it has to say. I think you will be very surprised by what you find. What do you possibly have to lose by taking up my challenge? You may even learn something new which is always exciting.



May God in his infinite mercy guide us all to the truth."

This thread really makes me want to pick up a bible myself and read through it, and order a koran to compare. http://tinyurl.com/zelua

Very interesting, especially the islam version of mary and jesus.

Now I'm not a religious scholar by any means and I very well may be overstepping my bounds in saying this but, "the bible" as we know it didn't come down from heaven or was etched into the earth from a lightning bolt. My art history class at school explained that at the time of Christ's death there were many sects of 'would be Christians' who each compiled their own accounts of the life and times of Jesus Christ. Over the course of several hundred years, the bible was compiled and when Constantine made Christianity Rome's official religion, they did a little editing and ironed out some things while leaving some things out entirely. The Dead Sea Scrolls for example do not conform to a Constantinian outlook of the bible. They were transcribed by a small sect of 'would be Christians' (I call them would-be's because they weren't actually calling themselves Christians at the time)

Perhaps the 'evolution' of the bible can explain for some of the discrepancies that were pointed out earlier. The fact that it took so long to canonize doesn't necessarily discount its legitimacy, does it?

quote:Originally posted by W:

My art history class at school explained that at the time of Christ's death there were many sects of 'would be Christians' who each compiled their own accounts of the life and times of Jesus Christ.

Yeah, bible contradictions just show that many of the various authors were mistaken on certain details.

It's not a case of "The bible contains contradictions, therefore it must all be bullshit"