Goddammit, I hate that. I was having a discussion with my grandmum and we were discussing my tics (complex motor and vocal twitches). There are a few things that could be causing it. Most likely Tourette's Syndrome or a generic tic disorder, or a precursor to epilepsy, or maybe even a brain tumor. The highest probability rests in it just being Tourette's or a tic disorder, though. I'm not overly worried about it.

Anyway, she mentioned something along the lines of "We'll just have to pray about it." Now, as an apostate Christian, I still carry some animosity towards Christianity for the false hope that I came to realize it is. I said something along the lines of "I don't see that working".

Then she points to the side of her wrist and says "See. I had a bone growth (calcium deposit?) there and I prayed about it and it went away. Granny (my other grandmother) had one just like it and she had to have surgery. Prayer works."

Me: "How do you know it didn't break down on its own."

Her: "Because I prayed about it."

Me: "But there was a study conducted proving prayer is ineffective in aiding medical conditions."

Her: "I don't care about your science studies. I know there's a god and I know he healed my wrist."

I could see this wasn't going anywhere. Then, she pulled out the artillery.

"You do believe in god don't you? I don't know what I'd do if I couldn't see you in heaven with grandpa."

Fuck! Shit! I held myself together. I was on the verge of..."There is no god. There is no heaven. Grandpa's dead. We all die and that's it. Your wrist healed itself through natural means. And kneeling at our beds and talking to ourselves isn't going to do any good for the randomly firing neurons in my brain that generate my tics."

I imagined her breaking down in tears. Then the inevitable "Oh! You just have to believe! You don't want to go to hell, do you?! Boo hoo hoo!"

So I bit my lip, made a sly grin, and said something along the lines of "I hope he likes me enough to let me in" and walked away.

Why the fuck do they do it? Fucking patronizing us with their emotional sensationalism. Just once I'd like to tell a family member "I think god is fake" and have a simple "Why?", "Ok", or even better, "So do I."

But no. I get the fucking sad faces and the "Don't you want to see me in heaven? God loves you. Blah blah blah." Every. fucking. time.

I almost feel like a closet gay guy trying to give his family a hint and they keep trying to hook him up with girls against his will. Where's my fucking "Atheist Pride" bumper sticker? When's our "Skeptics Parade"? I'm sick of being patronized every time I hint that I think Jeebus and his daddy are bullshit.

Anyone else get this? Or is there some atheist paradise where there are no churches and you don't get scowled at by strangers for saying you don't attend a church (has happened to me more than once)?

Argh! http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)



[This message has been edited by Elephantitis Man (edited 08-04-2006).]

Your granny is ignorant, and don't let her use emotive reasoning on you to force you into believing something you obviously doubt.

[This message has been edited by Overman (edited 08-04-2006).]

Yeah, I know the feeling. My mother is incredibly religious as she feels that she is alive today only because of a number of miracles by God. She used to go to Church at least twice a week, seemed to buy everything she heard there at face value, is a Biblical literalist, etc. Furthermore, when I was younger, she had once even bragged about being hostile towards atheists. She once claimed (when I was like 10, before I had any religious views) that she got into a debate with some important atheist guy (whose name escapes me) and completely owned him as atheism is a completely unreasonable position.

My father already knew I was an atheist (my parents are divorced) and really didn't care, even though he considers himself a Christian. My mother, on the other hand, did not know I was an atheist up until a few months ago. I knew I couldn't lie to her about my beliefs, so it followed that at some point or another she would find out. I figured a confrontational approach with her was bad, simply because that's not the type of person I am. So I decided I'd tell her if she asked me (I'm an adult, I can believe whatever I want), but until then, I'd simply keep my mouth shut.

Fast forward to Easter. We drive down to my Grandparents' house and go to their Church. I decided to go with, simply because I'd cause a huge scene if I didn't, and would be accused of ruining Easter. I'm an adult. I can sit and listen to a dissenting opinion for an hour, no big deal. Then it's time for communion. For those of you who don't know, in order to have communion at this Church you need to:

-have been baptised

-accept Jesus Christ as your personal lord and savior

As I did not accept Jesus Christ as my personal lord and savior, I did not get communion. I simply sat and watched a bunch of people consume really bad wine and bread. Nobody seemed to notice, and I really didn't care.

Fast forward a couple weeks. My mom tells me "I noticed you didn't get communion on Easter, what's up with that?" I decide to be honest, and I proceeded to tell her it would have been dishonest for me to partake in the sacrament.

"Why?" she asked.

"If I recall correctly, there were two criterion that had to be met in order to partake in communion."

*pause*

"You have to be baptised and accept Jesus as your personal lord and savior," she said, realizing that I was about to tell her that I am no longer a Christian.

"The latter no longer holds."

"You don't accept Jesus as your personal lord and savior...??" her voice trailed off.

"No, I don't."

"Why not?"

"After some research, I have decided that the Bible is not consistent with itself or reality."

"Well, do tell."

At this point in time I outlined some major internal and external Biblical contradictions, which, to my surprise, she said were "interesting," and she would talk to her pastor about them.

So, surprisingly, my mother accepts my atheism and has only made limited attempts to reconvert me, and those attempts have only been requests to back up what I've claimed. I have been pleasantly surprised.

I should note, however, that my mother realizes I am an adult and that I get to make my own decisions now. If your parents don't realize this it may take them longer to accept your atheism.

If you're non-confrontational (like myself), my advice to you would be to take your time, but hold your ground. You know what you believe and what you don't believe. Do your own thing, you don't need anyone's approval. If someone has a problem with that, they can bring it up with you.

Best of luck.

quote:Originally posted by jsaxton14:

At this point in time I outlined some major internal and external Biblical contradictions

Gah, I can never remember those when I need them. http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif) Inspiring story, though!

Prove the Bible wrong, then you can say that God does not exist or whatever you may please.

Truthisall: Prove the Bible at all with external indicators, and then maybe I'll accept your position as one of the dominant probabilities, instead of something rather low on the possibility scale.

Until then, I will devote myself towards looking at the more probable ideas first, and THEN I will come back to the Bible.

[This message has been edited by Zinkovich (edited 08-04-2006).]

Don't want bullshit talk from your family members? Just pretend that you are still a believer. Just pray along and also seek the proper treatment. Simple as that.

quote:"Prove the Bible wrong, then you can say that God does not exist or whatever you may please."

I could sit here for DAYS pointing out every inconsistency, mistake and all the flat-out WRONG information in the Bible, and you would ignore all of it because you "believe."

The burden of proof is on YOU to prove all that wacky bullshit is correct. So far, nobody EVER HAS. Fucking DIE and stop wrecking the planet!

quote:Originally posted by Truth is all:

Prove the Bible wrong, then you can say that God does not exist or whatever you may please.

Genesis 1 postulates that man was created after plants and animals.

Genesis 2 postulates that man was created before plants and animals.

Both of these claims cannot be true.

It follows that at least one of these claims must be false, and the Bible cannot be inerrant.

quote:Originally posted by jsaxton14:

Genesis 1 postulates that man was created after plants and animals.

Genesis 2 postulates that man was created before plants and animals.

Both of these claims cannot be true.

It follows that at least one of these claims must be false, and the Bible cannot be inerrant.

Okay I got this one haha, second genesis happaned first then man evolved into plants and animals so god had to do a redo.

^ No no no...chapter 2 is just a clarification of chapter 1. A subtext, if you will.

...Demon! http://www.totse.com/bbs/mad.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/mad.gif)

http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif) http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

Anyway, yeah, my mom is alot like jsaxton's. She claims she might have committed suicide if it wasn't for her religion. I'm thinking "You didn't need a preacher. You needed a fuckin' therapist." As far as she knows I'm just very skeptical. I ask her questions regarding the legitimacy of the bible and development of the church all the time, most of the time she just shrugs her shoulders. My dad has no clue, and I'd have no idea how he would respond.

Oh, and to Overman's reply, I'm not considering believing it. I just don't like the whole "emotional blackmail" thing. I don't understand why people are so troubled simply by the suggestion that we aren't all immortal beings trapped in mortal bodies. I have no problem with dying. If a relative dies, I don't have to look forward to "seeing them again" just to find solace in their death.

But yeah, this thread isn't about just the situation I posted, but situations like it. When atheists, agnostics, freethinkers are antagonized by relatives and friends with emotional sensationalism instead of entering a rational discussion.

Oh, and Truth is all, prove to me that the Koran is wrong, otherwise you can't say Muhammed's story isn't true. Prove to me the Vedas are wrong, otherwise you can't knock Hinduism. See where one can take this faulty logic? The burden of proof is on the one making the claim. And that "proof" must also stand up under scrutiny. "God works in mysterious ways" doesn't cut it. Neither does "Who are you to question god?" If he is demanding my eternal worship and praise, he better make it pretty damn obvious he exists and, if that, he is even worthy of any praise.

[This message has been edited by Elephantitis Man (edited 08-04-2006).]

My mom's the same way except she doesnt bug me with questions. i think that in a way she thinks im still a christian but isnt sure and doesnt want to bring it up only to find that her im her second son to admit he is an atheist. but sometimes shell make random comments like "i think its best to believe in god because if you find out there is when you die then youll get into heaven but if you do believe in god and find out there isnt one then there was no harm done." this right here is pascal's wager why it matters that i put a label on the quote, i have no clue. but i just keep my mouth shut and when she makes the comments choose to limit myself to hums and ohs and so on. when im a little older ill "come out of the closet" so-to-speak on the subject.

Every day I'm extremely grateful for my parents, who are logical and objective thinkers who never accepted religion, since they simply have minds of their own and don't believe everything they are told.

I do believe it is called "elephantiasis", not "elephantitis".

quote:Originally posted by The_Big_Beef:

My mom's the same way except she doesnt bug me with questions. i think that in a way she thinks im still a christian but isnt sure and doesnt want to bring it up only to find that her im her second son to admit he is an atheist. but sometimes shell make random comments like "i think its best to believe in god because if you find out there is when you die then youll get into heaven but if you do believe in god and find out there isnt one then there was no harm done." this right here is pascal's wager why it matters that i put a label on the quote, i have no clue. but i just keep my mouth shut and when she makes the comments choose to limit myself to hums and ohs and so on. when im a little older ill "come out of the closet" so-to-speak on the subject.



Except she's picking an arbitrary definition of God. Her actions could be sending her to hell.

quote:Originally posted by Overman:

Your granny is ignorant, and don't let her use emotive reasoning on you to force you into believing something you obviously doubt.



lol will the oops come out of your mouth or your bum?

quote:Originally posted by Truth is all:

Prove the Bible wrong, then you can say that God does not exist or whatever you may please.

Buddy, I left you a list of contradictions in the other thread we were in.

quote:Originally posted by Elephantitis Man:

Goddammit. The highest probability rests in it just being Tourette's or a tic disorder, though. I'm not overly worried about it.

Fuck! Shit! I was on the verge of..."There is no god. There is no heaven. Grandpa's dead. We all die and that's it. Your wrist healed itself through natural means. And kneeling at our beds and talking to ourselves isn't going to do any good for the randomly firing neurons in my brain that generate my tics."

Why the fuck do they do it? Fucking patronizing us with their emotional sensationalism. Just once I'd like to tell a family member "I think god is fake" and have a simple "Why?", "Ok", or even better, "So do I."

I get the fucking sad faces and the "Don't you want to see me in heaven? God loves you. Blah blah blah." Every. fucking. time.

I almost feel like a closet gay guy. I think Jeebus and his daddy are bullshit.

Anyone else get this?

Her wrists did naturally heal themselves after she prayed, but I don't think the prayers will work on you since the your inner belief in the effectiveness is a factor.

If you don't believe it will work, truly, even deeply, and keep praying, your brain will understand that you don't want it to work, don't believe it to work, and so it simply won't work.

It may not be completely false, the prayers may have assisted in her healing because of her belief in it signalling the brain to do the job.

By the way E man, we know the whole Fathery man image God and his Son who forgives through dying is silly billy concept, but what do you have against my God? The One I've written about in WHAT IS GOD and My Dear Abrahim.

Abrahim your definition of God sounds more like you chose God to be nothing so it couldn't be argued with. You can say reality is god and that we are held to its limitations but I really don't see that as a God. I can say that air is god and that we are held to its limitations. It has complete control of our lifes; We can only go where it is and if we try going someone else we have to bring it with us and return when it runs out. God (air) created us dependent apoun him. How can something have that much control over us and not be God? Do I believe that shit, fuck no, but it does just as good of job at putting a label of God on something that isn't.

Sorry man, but if you're going to be that staunch in your beliefs, then man it up and offend people with them, if they can't accept them...that's hardly your problem!

I definatly sympathise with you, having had religious debates with my grand-mother before (she's not quite as extreme as yours http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)) and being told that God ensured she met her second husband and was happy and stuff (he died recently, and was an atheist all his life).

On one hand, it's very hard to know what to say, because a faith that strong is so ingrained in someones very "soul" that they may never be able to question it, let alone break free.

I know it's different in Europe in some ways, with attitudes to religion, but the idea of being "told off" for not going to church is just laughable, if I was patronized like that i'd definatly share my beliefs about why the Christian religion is one of the biggest scams on the face of the earth.

I guess it's different when these people are your friends and neighbours, who coincidently all share pretty similar views http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

Good luck anyway.

It's simple, be polite, be cheerful, any good Christian will respect these things. Politely disagree with them, but be open to their views.

Most importantly, instead of trying to just refute every one of their views, try to help them view their beliefs in a more accurate and open minded manner. The Bible is literature, open to metaphors and symbolism and other artistic traits. Most Christian's neglect the possibility of waining from literal interpretation of the Bible. The thing is, most Atheists interpret it literally, too.

quote:Originally posted by sketchy:

Abrahim your definition of God sounds more like you chose God to be nothing so it couldn't be argued with. You can say reality is god and that we are held to its limitations but I really don't see that as a God. I can say that air is god and that we are held to its limitations. It has complete control of our lifes; We can only go where it is and if we try going someone else we have to bring it with us and return when it runs out. God (air) created us dependent apoun him. How can something have that much control over us and not be God? Do I believe that shit, fuck no, but it does just as good of job at putting a label of God on something that isn't.

Yeah but air isn't what absolutely everything exists within and by.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

Yeah but air isn't what absolutely everything exists within and by.



Just because reality does makes it God? You worship reality so it's your God but it's not a God. And the air idea is no less realistic.