quote:At the same time that Christians claim to worship God as an omnipotent, omnipresent, omnibenevolent being, they make him out to be incompetent bumbler. Or worse. Simple forgiveness is beyond his capacities. God must "sacrifice himself to himself to change a rule he made himself!"

This is not only an absurdity, it is an essential absurdity. It is present in almost all forms of Christianity, and one can scarcely remove it and remain a Christian in anything but name. By definition, all Christians worship Christ - in some form - and most worship him as a saviour.

But what, exactly, is he saving us from? Though it varies from church to church, no matter what they call it, it's God himself. A hell created by God, a world fallen as a result of God's negligence, a separation from God imposed... by God.

Christianity certainly isn't the first religion to promote appeasement of its gods, and if it were merely another supernatural protection racket, it would be bad enough. Unfortunately, it doesn't stop there. Christians elevate appeasement to the realm of "personal relationship", transforming their religion into a true monstrosity.

This is the type of "relationship" that abused wives have with their husbands, that brainwashed hostages have with their captors. It is known in clinical circles as Stockholm Syndrome. Should it come as any surprise that the cries of the church, "The Bride of Christ" sound much like the cries of an abused wife attempting to protect her husband?

"He must beat me."

"I deserve it."

"He has no choice."

"It's for my own good."

These excuses don't work for human abusers, and they work even less well for God. For if God is omnipotent, he must have a choice. And if we are flawed, we are only flawed because that is the way he made us. (No excuses that we ruined his perfect creation. A truly perfect creation does not self-destruct.)

If the Christian God does exist - and I see no reason to believe that he does - he's not worthy of the name.

And that is the ultimate absurdity of Christianity.

I've had many of those thoughts myself, although I'm not sure if it is fair to claim that a relationship between man and God is like that between a abused-wife and her husband. It was still a good read, however. Where did you find it?

Excellent post.

I've heard a Christian say that God sending a non-believer to Hell is an ultimate act of love, because he is following through with his word.

The first thing I thought was that this person has a really messed up view on what love is. It really is likened to an abusive relationship.

The church is the biggest bullshiter ever. And lets not forget the Bible was written by man. Not God.

Must we be so arrogant as to miss evil? For we live in it and many times participate in it everyday. It is God's grace that is given to us that He did not just start over, but allows us to live. The only cure for death is to die my friends. The Lord God did indeed allow all this to happen and in that is his love. No man is perfect unless you are arogant enough to claim so, which still would not make you perfect, just arrogant. Therefore since He did allow men to live on in their evil ways He had to find a way to come to them and give them true life yet again, but this way had to be of their own will, for He grants all men that beautiful yet wretched free will. Therefore He came down to us in His mercy, and gave His only Son to die, that death might be defeated and sin taken away. For if He brought us up to Himself we would surely die, for to witness true holiness and see our true wretchedness is death in itself. So do not so quickly think that God is not able to do great things, but consider that all things He does for our benefit. For it is more like the faithful husband that has an adultress for a wife, and when she is diseased, broken and beaten from the lusts she so freely follows crawls back and asks for that beautiful gift of grace, and He grants it everytime. Therefore He is worthy of the name above all names. So please, refrain from such hatred and think things through.

quote:Originally posted by Truth is all:

Must we be so arrogant as to miss evil? For we live in it and many times participate in it everyday. It is God's grace that is given to us that He did not just start over, but allows us to live. The only cure for death is to die my friends. The Lord God did indeed allow all this to happen and in that is his love. No man is perfect unless you are arogant enough to claim so, which still would not make you perfect, just arrogant. Therefore since He did allow men to live on in their evil ways He had to find a way to come to them and give them true life yet again, but this way had to be of their own will, for He grants all men that beautiful yet wretched free will. Therefore He came down to us in His mercy, and gave His only Son to die, that death might be defeated and sin taken away. For if He brought us up to Himself we would surely die, for to witness true holiness and see our true wretchedness is death in itself. So do not so quickly think that God is not able to do great things, but consider that all things He does for our benefit. For it is more like the faithful husband that has an adultress for a wife, and when she is diseased, broken and beaten from the lusts she so freely follows crawls back and asks for that beautiful gift of grace, and He grants it everytime. Therefore He is worthy of the name above all names. So please, refrain from such hatred and think things through.

Evil is God's fault, unless he doesn't have free will. He knows everything that's going to happen, and since he knew evil was going to happen he could of stopped it. In fact, if god can do anything he can make a world for us to live in where there is no evil.

I believe that is called "Heaven".

Of course, fundies will feed you copious amounts of bullshit about how evil is necessary for free will to exist, but they never really think it through because that logically implies that their heaven will either a) have evil or b) lack free will.

lol ok God said to adam and eve, Do not eat from that tree. They did, thus evil came into the world. Evil was done by man's volition. Now if God would have stopped evil then He would have killed us in the process because we are born in sin. He could have just offed adam and eve right there and started over, but instead He wanted you to live that you might hear his message and live. Again, God allows evil because if He did not, then judgement day would be upon us and all are guilty. By the way God hates evil, so you are very right to hate it as well, He is in agreement with you.

if jesus didnt want to get crucified, why didnt he just use his magic powers to get himself out of it?

How did eating from a tree create evil?

quote:Originally posted by Real.PUA:

How did eating from a tree create evil?

Hardcore metaphors and loose symbolism. ANYTHING goes, remember?

http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

If God could be comprehended by humans, he'd be a pretty shitty god. Let's not forget that this religion is based on thinkings thousands of years old. "Fresher" Christian evaluations of god are much more sensible, showing god as an impartial observer, the force behind life and the structure of the universe.

So you can disect Christianity over and over again, but to those who've devoted their lives to christ, it really won't matter.

That's the crux of Christianity, faith in the absolute and incomprehensible power of god.

But Christianity isn't all bad, by any means. It's a guide to live your life properly with a means to put your faith in something higher than yourself (a humbling experience).

Anway, I got off the track. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) I'm not Christian, just wanted to post an alternate viewpoint.

quote:Originally posted by Truth is all:

lol ok God said to adam and eve, Do not eat from that tree. They did, thus evil came into the world. Evil was done by man's volition. Now if God would have stopped evil then He would have killed us in the process because we are born in sin. He could have just offed adam and eve right there and started over, but instead He wanted you to live that you might hear his message and live. Again, God allows evil because if He did not, then judgement day would be upon us and all are guilty. By the way God hates evil, so you are very right to hate it as well, He is in agreement with you.

God created all possibilities.

quote:Originally posted by Truth is all:

Must we be so arrogant as to miss evil? For we live in it and many times participate in it everyday.

You don't have to do evil every day. You have the option of doing good and avoiding being bad.

the problem with that logic is...define "good" and define "evil"

keep in mind.....you only know what you've been taught....every idea that you've come across was a product of some person's imagination.....everything you've read, everything you've watched, games you play, ideas, stories, religions, laws, etc. are all products of some man/woman's imagination and thoughts.

quote:Originally posted by dsk1231:

the problem with that logic is...define "good" and define "evil"

keep in mind.....you only know what you've been taught....every idea that you've come across was a product of some person's imagination.....everything you've read, everything you've watched, games you play, ideas, stories, religions, laws, etc. are all products of some man/woman's imagination and thoughts.

My definition of Good is basically doing something beneficial or positive for yourself or someone else, perhaps helping them in a positive way?

My definition of evil is sort of the opposite of my definition of Good.

quote:Originally posted by Truth is all:

lol ok God said to adam and eve, Do not eat from that tree. They did, thus evil came into the world. Evil was done by man's volition. Now if God would have stopped evil then He would have killed us in the process because we are born in sin. He could have just offed adam and eve right there and started over, but instead He wanted you to live that you might hear his message and live. Again, God allows evil because if He did not, then judgement day would be upon us and all are guilty. By the way God hates evil, so you are very right to hate it as well, He is in agreement with you.

"Yes, reason has been a part of organized religion, ever since two nudists took dietary advice from a talking snake." - Jon Stewart

quote:Originally posted by Truth is all:

lol ok God said to adam and eve, Do not eat from that tree. They did, thus evil came into the world. Evil was done by man's volition.

According to this, evil was done by two people's volition: Adam and Eve, and now the rest of humanity is fucked over. We now "have" original sin because two people fucked up. Doesn't sound quite forgiving to me.

quote:

Now if God would have stopped evil then He would have killed us in the process because we are born in sin.

What? Wouldn't that have just made us pure? You don't die when you're baptized (free of sin), why would it make a difference when you're born?

quote:He could have just offed adam and eve right there and started over, but instead He wanted you to live that you might hear his message and live. Again, God allows evil because if He did not, then judgement day would be upon us and all are guilty.

We would be punished because evil was absent from our worlds? We're evil by default, then? If you have good and evil, then subtract evil, you'd be left with good, not evil. Your argument is completely illogical.

quote:Originally posted by dsk1231:

the problem with that logic is...define "good" and define "evil"

keep in mind.....you only know what you've been taught....every idea that you've come across was a product of some person's imagination.....everything you've read, everything you've watched, games you play, ideas, stories, religions, laws, etc. are all products of some man/woman's imagination and thoughts.

You must lead a pretty depressing life if you've never concluded anything for yourself.

[This message has been edited by King_Cotton (edited 09-12-2006).]

Ezekiel 18:20 states unequivocally that descendants are not to be punished for their parents' sins. Punishing all descents of Adam and Eve for their sin contradicts Ezekiel 18:20.

Assuming that the Christian God exists:

If we are to presume “evil” means anything harmful to the community, than God himself is “evil” since he committed many “evil” acts, and by virtue of his “omnipotence” the statement, “Now if God would have stopped evil then He would have killed us in the process… Again, God allows evil because if He did not, then judgement day would be upon us and all are guilty.” is invalid. If he commits heinous acts including allowing evil even though he could stop it because “nothing is impossible with God” then the Christian standards are hypocritical. In addition, one question, if sin is transgression of the law, which was not even enacted until the Exodus narrative, how can that be genetic?

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

Excellent post.

Too bad he didn't write it, nor did he include original thought of his own to expound upon the concept.

LostCause should lock this thread on principle alone.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

You don't have to do evil every day. You have the option of doing good and avoiding being bad.

You are bad by your very nature. Sin is inherent. It's genetic. It's hereditary. We are born into sin. Whether we sit in a corner never thinking or doing anything (thus avoiding behavior or thoughts that are sinful) we are still sinning.

God designed us this way, so that we would be forced to either rely on Him completely for our salvation, or rely on ourselves completely and condemn ourselves to Hell.

Moral relativism is a disease, Abrahim.

quote:Originally posted by Raw_Power:

At the same time that Christians claim to worship God as an omnipotent, omnipresent, omnibenevolent being, they make him out to be incompetent bumbler. Or worse. Simple forgiveness is beyond his capacities. God must "sacrifice himself to himself to change a rule he made himself!"

Simple forgiveness is not beyond His capability, it is beyond ours. Simple forgiveness would be an insignificant concept to humanity. If it were that easy, it would not be worth achieving, as the human spirit is motivated by achievement.

Ever heard the quote, "Nothing worth having comes easily" ?

God became man (Jesus Christ) to accomplish several things: fulfill His own prophecy, thus proving His omnipotence, fulfill the law of Moses, thus freeing us from the bondage of the law (no more sacrifices, no more living to the letter of the law in order to gain God's approval), and to offer salvation to all people, not just the Jews.

quote:This is not only an absurdity, it is an essential absurdity. It is present in almost all forms of Christianity, and one can scarcely remove it and remain a Christian in anything but name. By definition, all Christians worship Christ - in some form - and most worship him as a saviour.

The only absurdity is the author's complete inability to grasp the concept of God's nature.

Only a person who had never read the Bible and didn't understand it would fail to see the perfection of God's plan in bringing Himself to the earth in the form of Jesus. Jesus didn't change any rules. He made the rules complete. God has always been the same. Someone that actually knows God and knows the Bible would see that very clearly.

quote:But what, exactly, is he saving us from? Though it varies from church to church, no matter what they call it, it's God himself. A hell created by God, a world fallen as a result of God's negligence, a separation from God imposed... by God.

Instead of completing the original fallacious claim that God sent Himself to sacrifice Himself to Himself to change rules made by Himself, the author now goes off on a tangent.

These are the words of a person that has rejected HIMSELF from God.

We are God's creation. So was Satan. Sheol (or death, but commonly called Hell) did not exist until Satan's fall from Heaven. Sheol was a place for Satan and the angels that fell with him. When Satan tempted Eve in the Garden of Eden, and she chose to fall for the lie, she became knowledgable of Sheol (or death). That knowledge has forced our hand of choice ever since.

Yes, God created Sheol. Yes, God created Satan. Yes, God knew Satan would rebel, and He knew that Eve would fall for Satan's lies. He didn't force any of this to happen, but He knew it would. He created it all anyway.

What this argument boils down to, essentially, is why would an omnipotent, omnibenevolent, omniscient God create us, Sheol, and Satan, knowing a lot of us would fail this test and end up in Sheol ?

The only answer I can give to you is "relationship". Throughout the Bible the message of God is clear: Love me as I love you. This cannot represent a "need" because God is everything. He needs nothing. What it does represent is a want, or a desire.

To expound upon that thought further would be nothing more than guesswork, as there are no verses in scripture that explain why God would want anything we could possibly give Him. He does, however, command that we love Him with all our hearts, souls, and minds, and offer all of our worship (affection, allegiance, attention, and reliance) to Him. We know what He wants from us, and nothing else is explained. We have to accept that He doesn't want us to know for a reason, and if you think about it, the "Why" is really insignificant.

If we knew why He wanted our worship and relationship, would it really change anything, other than to satisfy our unending curiosity ? I don't think it would.

quote:Christianity certainly isn't the first religion to promote appeasement of its gods, and if it were merely another supernatural protection racket, it would be bad enough. Unfortunately, it doesn't stop there. Christians elevate appeasement to the realm of "personal relationship", transforming their religion into a true monstrosity.

Christianity and Judaism are unique in the sense that it does not revolve around appeasement. It is about relationship. It is a reciprocal idealogy. You give, and you receive, and I don't mean earthly things that will turn back into dust. I mean important things, like spirituality, guidance, love, comfort, direction, forgiveness, and a plethora of other things God provides. Christianity and Judaism are very unique in this way.

Christians and Jews elevate nothing. These are commandments from God Himself, as the Creator to the Created.

quote:This is the type of "relationship" that abused wives have with their husbands, that brainwashed hostages have with their captors. It is known in clinical circles as Stockholm Syndrome. Should it come as any surprise that the cries of the church, "The Bride of Christ" sound much like the cries of an abused wife attempting to protect her husband?

The author is confusing submission to being a doormat. There is a very clear distinction between the two.

Abused wives and prisoners do not have any choice (most abused women allow themselves to be abused because of psychological disorders that prevent them from using logic in determining their fate) about what happens to them. Christians do. Abused wives and prisoners also do not stand to benefit from their malignant situations. Christians do. Abused wives and prisoners receive nothing in return for their obedience. Christians do. Abused wives and prisoners are not loved. Christians are. There is no logical comparison between the abused/captive and Christians.

quote:"He must beat me."

"I deserve it."

"He has no choice."

"It's for my own good."

Any Christian that would say these things to God isn't acting in accordance to Christian tenets.

This is nothing more than a fabrication of the mind of the author, and has no factual bearing on Christianity, or how God wants it's adherents to behave.

God doesn't beat us, He refines us. We deserve nothing more than what we get for our choices (follow God, go to Heaven, follow Satan, go to Hell). Any Christian that does not recognize God's power to do anything He wants is a very ignorant Christian. Everything God does is for our own good.

quote:These excuses don't work for human abusers, and they work even less well for God. For if God is omnipotent, he must have a choice. And if we are flawed, we are only flawed because that is the way he made us. (No excuses that we ruined his perfect creation. A truly perfect creation does not self-destruct.)

Those excuses neither characterize the nature of God, nor the mindset of Christians.

He made us with the ability to choose. We chose wrongly, and we have paid for it dearly (Eve in the Garden). He created us with the ability to reject Him. He didn't create mindless robots.

The choice to sin cannot be likened to self-destruction, only a manifestation of our capabilities. Eve could have trusted God, and utilized her free will to reject Satan's lies, but she did not.

quote:If the Christian God does exist - and I see no reason to believe that he does - he's not worthy of the name.

Says the created of the Creator, in it's infinitely limited ability to conceptualize what God truly is.

quote:And that is the ultimate absurdity of Christianity.

And that is the fallacious logic of a person who doesn't know God, doesn't understand God, and hasn't used the only handbook we have been given to accomplish either of those two things.

It goes without saying that the cynic is most often the closest to surrendering his life to his Creator.

Digi:

During this post, bear in mind that I still have yet to read through the Bible (thoroughly anyway). I am certainly ignorant to much of the scripture, yet I've recently done some research as to the origins of Biblical mythology. So, I have a couple of questions.

1. Why is the serpent of Genesis associated with the character of Satan? I cannot recall seeing any mention of such a name.

2. You state that God knew Eve would fall for Satan's lies. At what point does the serpent lie? He states that, "Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." Adam and Eve eat of the tree, they do not die, and they evidently obtain (a rather vague) knowledge. What am I missing?

3. Going along with question 2: Is it not God himself that lied to the couple? God states, "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Obviously, Adam and Eve do not die as a result of eating from the tree of knowledge.

4. In an earlier post, you state that God designed us to be sinful as part of our very nature so that we must be forced to rely on him for salvation, lest we face damnation. In your very next post, you state that God created all evil and punishment, yet he somehow does not force your concept of 'original sin'. He is simply 'aware'.

God designs us to be sinful, while simultaneously holding no responsibility for our sinful nature.

... Wha?

5. As you point out, the argument returns to the question of "Why?". Is non-existence not the merciful alternative to an eternity of anguish? An unmerciful act is not an act of an omni-benevolent being.

Just some ramblings. Thanks for any response.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

And that is the fallacious logic of a person who doesn't know God, doesn't understand God, and hasn't used the only handbook we have been given to accomplish either of those two things.

It goes without saying that the cynic is most often the closest to surrendering his life to his Creator.

You should consider what you're saying and understand how you utter blasphemy with your explanations and reasonings behind things. "God coming to Earth as a man to Die for the sins of Others because Simple Forgiveness for those who ask isn't good enough" WHAT? Stop it, it's almost sickening. God is far beyond these disgusting inventions which you follow.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

You are bad by your very nature. Sin is inherent. It's genetic. It's hereditary. We are born into sin. Whether we sit in a corner never thinking or doing anything (thus avoiding behavior or thoughts that are sinful) we are still sinning.

God designed us this way, so that we would be forced to either rely on Him completely for our salvation, or rely on ourselves completely and condemn ourselves to Hell.

Moral relativism is a disease, Abrahim.

I believe we as humans, by the grace of God, have the option to do Good as well as Bad, but one should do Good instead of Bad not only for God, but for ourselves, as it is the more beneficial.

I believe there have been people in this world who have lived simple lives devoid of sin, transgression, wrongdoing and that any human is capable of being good and doing good.

I believe babies are innocent, born innocent, and some of them grow to do wrong, some of them grow to do good, the prior may be in the majority.

I find that saying "everyone is a sinner" is a quick and easy way to negate personal responsibility, once again to say "simply believing in Jesus as your lord and savior who died FOR YOUR SINS is the only way to be saved" is another way to negate personal responsibility.

You, even You, are capable of being a good person, doing right, and asking God, the One True God, for forgiveness if you ever do anything bad or wrong and to cease and desist in persisting in an act of wrong doing. That is being a Righteous and Good person which every human has the capacity achieve.

You bear your own burdens and no one else can bear your burdens for you, you must ask God the One the Only capable of true forgiveness for anything you wish to be forgiven. There is no Forgiveness by Default, it is up to you to ask and do right in life to be rewarded in the afterlife.

quote:Originally posted by UnknownVeritas:

Digi:

2. You state that God knew Eve would fall for Satan's lies. At what point does the serpent lie? He states that, "Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." Adam and Eve eat of the tree, they do not die, and they evidently obtain (a rather vague) knowledge. What am I missing?

(Is that all it is to be a God? Knowledge of Good and Evil?)

3.Obviously, Adam and Eve do not die as a result of eating from the tree of knowledge.

(yeah but they did eventually die so that accounts as part of their fall from grace, their loss of innocence and immortality in the Garden of Eden, Now they had to toil on the Earth and would eventually die.)

4. God designs us to be sinful, while simultaneously holding no responsibility for our sinful nature.

(God according to some Christians is all good and the eating from the tree and disobeying God brought evil into the world. Some other Christians believe Satan is the Architect of Evil but the population which believes this may not be highly educated in the Bible. Other Christians believe God created Good and Evil and gave us a choice as part of our free will)

5. As you point out, the argument returns to the question of "Why?".

(It is not so much as to Why for the religious as it is "This is how it is so deal with it.", I too subscribe to the "This is how it is: reasoning" I believe that there was no start and there will be no end, that this universe and reality is just one of an infinite number of other possibilities all within God, and that none of them have a point of origin but God was is and always will be, there is essentially nothing but God, nothing outside of God, it is just God, and with God came all the infinite knowledge that makes us and the other realities and possibilities, there was no time in which there was nothing, there is no such thing as nothing, there is only God. So this is God, it is not a question of Why, but rather This is how it is.)

Just some ramblings. Thanks for any response.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Sin is inherent. It's genetic. It's hereditary.

Fascinating. So if we isolate and remove the gene(s) responsible for sin, we will avoid passing it along to our children?

"If chance be the father of all flesh then disaster is his rainbow in the sky. And when you hear of state of emergencies, sniper kills ten, youths go looting, bomb blasts school, it is but the sound of man worshiping his maker." -Steve Turner

Abrahim:

1. I can't answer that. I'm simply going by Biblical scripture (what little I know).

2. They do eventually die, yes. However, where in their creation does it state that they are born with immortality? Maybe I simply missed something... I've never put much into the Christian/Jewish faith.

3. They could not attain knowledge of that which did not exist. Adam and Eve could not 'create' evil. God would be responsible. My problem lies in her stating that God is unaccountable while at the same time stating that he forces us to repent for our own natural being, for which he is obviously responsible.

4. I have read your definitions of God before. I understand the concepts; you're certainly not the first to suggest such a belief. However, I see no reason to slap the title of God on to an "Ultimate Reality".

This has been a bit rushed, as I must leave in a minute. I'll check back later.

quote:Originally posted by hyroglyphx:

"If chance be the father of all flesh then disaster is his rainbow in the sky. And when you hear of state of emergencies, sniper kills ten, youths go looting, bomb blasts school, it is but the sound of man worshiping his maker." -Steve Turner

"Good" things are as much a product of chance as "bad" things. Religion doesn't have a monopoly on morality.

[This message has been edited by smallpox champion (edited 08-11-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by smallpox champion:

"Good" things are as much a product of chance as "bad" things. Religion doesn't have a monopoly on morality.

Good and bad have no meaning without an absolute framework, especially since 'good' and 'bad' convey absolute meanings. If morals are merely relative then there is no justification for criticizing anyone else's version of morality because it would be based upon our opinions. Therefore, if morals really were relative then morals don't actually exist at all. Thus, there must at first be set standard for us to have arrived any kind of relative standard.

Does that make sense, Nietzsche?

quote:Originally posted by UnknownVeritas:

Abrahim:

1. I can't answer that. I'm simply going by Biblical scripture (what little I know).

2. They do eventually die, yes. However, where in their creation does it state that they are born with immortality? Maybe I simply missed something... I've never put much into the Christian/Jewish faith.

3. They could not attain knowledge of that which did not exist. Adam and Eve could not 'create' evil. God would be responsible. My problem lies in her stating that God is unaccountable while at the same time stating that he forces us to repent for our own natural being, for which he is obviously responsible.

4. I have read your definitions of God before. I understand the concepts; you're certainly not the first to suggest such a belief. However, I see no reason to slap the title of God on to an "Ultimate Reality".

This has been a bit rushed, as I must leave in a minute. I'll check back later.

I believe that anything other than my definition is not worthy to be called God. Thanks for your speedy response, I wasn't attacking you or anything really only adding to what you said a bit perhaps.

quote:Originally posted by hyroglyphx:

Good and bad have no meaning without an absolute framework, especially since 'good' and 'bad' convey absolute meanings. If morals are merely relative then there is no justification for criticizing anyone else's version of morality because it would be based upon our opinions. Therefore, if morals really were relative then morals don't actually exist at all. Thus, there must at first be set standard for us to have arrived any kind of relative standard.

Does that make sense, Nietzsche?



And you are arguing the first inventor of morals is a God and not a man? It's easy for men to come up with concepts, man could of said 'if we want to live in a group, we need some rules for getting along' and thus the first morals were invented.

There is such a thing as moral good and evil, butthere is no moral good that transcends any actual interests, and is in that sense objective. These are only human concepts that would not be needed if we did not live in a society.

someone at some point was pondering everything and realized that when a man bones a women she spits out another baby. he decided that it must "mean" something when you had sex. so he wrote down its wrong to bone animals, other males, and any other hole on a female other than the vagina.

it was also decided that well i wouldnt want someone to steal from me

i wouldnt want someone to kill me

ive noticed that people who envy get angry and cause disruptions so thats wrong too

they were just ideas of people trying to opiate the masses

the idea is you are a born sinner. you are going to sin, so i want you to feel ashamed of yourself when you do sin. the priests figured they could get free erotica sitting in a hidden booth. come give 10% of your money, say a couple hail mary's,then let the priest check your organs to make sure you're growing properly

morals? lol

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Only a person who had never read the Bible and didn't understand it would fail to see the perfection of God's plan in bringing Himself to the earth in the form of Jesus.

So all atheists failed to grasp the Bible? I must say I disagree.

Abrahim:

I know it wasn't an attack. I was simply in a rush to respond before leaving. I understand your use of the label God, however I simply don't see a need for it. The word is tossed around so carelessly that it's essentially lost all meaning.

quote:Originally posted by sketchy:

So all atheists failed to grasp the Bible? I must say I disagree.

Yes, they do. It's a spiritual book. It must be read with spiritual eyes, or the point is lost entirely.

That doesn't mean you can't understand concepts and the historical aspects, but there is a fundamental meaning that is lost on those who do not have the Holy Spirit.

quote:Originally posted by UnknownVeritas:

Digi:

During this post, bear in mind that I still have yet to read through the Bible (thoroughly anyway). I am certainly ignorant to much of the scripture, yet I've recently done some research as to the origins of Biblical mythology. So, I have a couple of questions.

No problem. Thanks for the heads up.

quote:1. Why is the serpent of Genesis associated with the character of Satan? I cannot recall seeing any mention of such a name.

He was the only entity recorded in the Bible to be God's antithesis. By contradicting God's promise that Adam and Eve would die if they ate of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge, the serpent attempted to undermine God's authority. This very attempt reveals the character of Satan. This is all he exists for.

John 8:44 - “He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature; for he is a liar, and the father of lies.”

The sin Adam and Eve committed in disobeying God brought death into the world. Eventually, Adam and Eve did end up dying...Satan deliberately lied to them to manipulate them.

Pray tell, what other entity could have taken the form of the serpent that day in the Garden ? Where else in the Bible have you noticed talking animals ?

Lastly, Satan is known by many descriptions. Adversary, Opponent, Destroyer, Beelzebul, Accuser, Enemy, Dragon, Morning Star...he does not appear to have a specific name. We have adopted the names Satan and Lucifer, but I doubt they are what he is called. With as many descriptions as he has, it is important to pay attention to his methodology and his purpose, and not his "name". What is he doing in this verse ? He is trying to thwart God. That is what he does. It is clear who the serpent is.

quote:2. You state that God knew Eve would fall for Satan's lies. At what point does the serpent lie? He states that, "Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." Adam and Eve eat of the tree, they do not die, and they evidently obtain (a rather vague) knowledge. What am I missing?

The serpent tells Adam and Eve they will not perish if they disobey God. They were not created to die, but God cursed them for their disobedience, and allowed them to know death as a consequence of their sin. They did die. Satan lied to them to get them to disobey God.

Are Adam and Eve alive today ? No. They would have been, had they been obedient. They were created perfect. Perfection did not include bodies that aged, fell ill, and eventually died.

quote:3. Going along with question 2: Is it not God himself that lied to the couple? God states, "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Obviously, Adam and Eve do not die as a result of eating from the tree of knowledge.

They began to die the moment they disobeyed God. He didn't say they would die right that very second.

They went from a state of perpetual life to a state of degredation, ultimately leading to their death.

God did not lie.

quote:4. In an earlier post, you state that God designed us to be sinful as part of our very nature so that we must be forced to rely on him for salvation, lest we face damnation. In your very next post, you state that God created all evil and punishment, yet he somehow does not force your concept of 'original sin'. He is simply 'aware'.

God designs us to be sinful, while simultaneously holding no responsibility for our sinful nature.

... Wha?

God didn't design us to be sinful (as if that were our only purpose by design). He designed us with the ability to sin, if we so choose.

I never said He is not responsible for our sinful nature. It simply must be understood that He doesn't force us to sin, just by creating us with the ability to do so. We choose to sin. We can also choose to be obedient.

Maybe I am just not understanding what you're confused about. There were quite a few elements to that question. Can you refine it a bit, and include my quotes ?

quote:5. As you point out, the argument returns to the question of "Why?". Is non-existence not the merciful alternative to an eternity of anguish? An unmerciful act is not an act of an omni-benevolent being.

Just some ramblings. Thanks for any response.

Non-existence wouldn't really matter to us, as we wouldn't be around to experience it, now would we ? Pain and suffering has it's purpose. It is what refines us. It is what makes us wise, and helps us to appreciate happiness when it comes. As with all things in the universe, happiness requires balance, and that balance is pain. Without that balance, it would not make sense, and would serve no purpose.

You are defining "merciful" for the Creator of your concept of mercy. http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif) Allowing us to choose our own pain doesn't show a lack of mercy on God's part.

You're welcome. Thank you for your genuine and thought-provoking questions. It's a nice change.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 08-11-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

I believe that anything other than my definition is not worthy to be called God.

Therein lies your problem. Your beliefs have more to do with Abrahim than they do with an omnipotent Creator.

I have said it before, and I will say it again: you are nothing more than a proselytizing narcissist.

quote:Originally posted by Twisted_Ferret II:

Fascinating. So if we isolate and remove the gene(s) responsible for sin, we will avoid passing it along to our children?

There are parts of us that cannot be experienced by the 5 senses. We pass them on, generation to generation. My point was that sin is who we are, and we cannot escape our nature.

That is why I laugh at those who claim Christianity is an opiate for weak-minded people that need crutches...true Christianity is damn hard, because you are constantly at odds with your nature. You are commanded to abandon the flesh, and consume yourself with God. It is VERY difficult, and not easily achieved.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Yes, they do. It's a spiritual book. It must be read with spiritual eyes, or the point is lost entirely.

That doesn't mean you can't understand concepts and the historical aspects, but there is a fundamental meaning that is lost on those who do not have the Holy Spirit.

But wait a minute, isn't everyone an atheist until they learn of Christ, most likely through being preached the bible?

What I think you really means is: someone willing to believe in imaginary beings. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

You should consider what you're saying and understand how you utter blasphemy with your explanations and reasonings behind things. "God coming to Earth as a man to Die for the sins of Others because Simple Forgiveness for those who ask isn't good enough" WHAT? Stop it, it's almost sickening. God is far beyond these disgusting inventions which you follow.

You should consider the undeniably obvious fact that I will never listen to anything you have to say, as it could never be more perfect, enlightening, and authoritative as the word of God Himself.

It is hilarious that you can claim God is beyond anything, when you have claimed that we created us to be insignificant, which ultimately negates our purpose, which should make you question whether there is a God at all. In one post you say He is far beyond anything I have portrayed, yet in another you claim He didn't really create us for a specific purpose, as we are insignificant, just like everything else He created. Dizzying logic there, Abrahim.

Stop proselytizing to me.

Basically, the Adam and Eve story discourages knowledge. God threatens Adam and Eve that if they eat from the tree, they’ll die. And God’s antithesis - which must I point out, God invented, and, since God knows everything, he knew Satan would try and overthrow him and that Adam would eat from the apple - encourages them to eat from the tree of knowledge; basically he's a metaphore to make all knowledge seekers look like snakes. So they eat, and god throws a hissy fit and punishes them.

Moral: shut the fuck up and don’t question ‘God’s’ authority, for if you do you shall surely die and burn for all eternity.





[This message has been edited by Raw_Power (edited 08-11-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Raw_Power:

But wait a minute, isn't everyone an atheist until they learn of Christ, most likely through being preached the bible?

No. An unbeliever that is ill-equipped intellectually (has never been taught about God, and has never read the Bible) is not the same thing as an atheist. An atheist adamantly denies there is a God.

quote:What I think you really means is: someone willing to believe in imaginary beings. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

Mmmk. http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

Anytime you want to stop with the childish stuff is fine by me.

Please, please, please, prove to me that we all have souls with more to back it up then "IT'S IN DA BIBLE" and "I JUST FEEL IT SO IT MUST BE SO". http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif) You can't, because there's nothing there.

quote:Originally posted by Raw_Power:

Basically, the Adam and Eve story discourages knowledge. God threatens Adam and Eve that if they eat from the tree, they’ll die.

The knowledge of EVIL. They already had knowledge of good. Obviously, God was attempting to protect them from themselves. They didn't listen, and thought knowing evil would be much better...they were wrong.

quote:And God’s antithesis - which must I point out, God invented, and, since God knows everything, he knew Satan would try and overthrow him and that Adam would eat from the apple - encourages them to eat from the tree of knowledge; basically he's a metaphore to make all knowledge seekers look like snakes. So they eat, and god throws a hissy fit punishes them.

Yes, God knew what Satan would do. He also knew what Eve would do. I already said this, long before your post. Why are you repeating things I have said ?

Satan is not a metaphor. He is very real. His gift to humanity was not knowledge that was beneficial. God created us with the ability to gain knowledge of all flavors. It would stand to reason that He didn't view knowledge itself as a bad thing. It was knowledge of a specific thing, which was Evil itself, that He sought to prevent us from gaining. He knew we would...the act of disobedience is also a lesson to later generations. There is far too much to explain about God's character in this story...

God allowed them their choice. The punishment was already known: He told them they would perish if they ate of that fruit. They were forewarned, and did it anyway. Any good parent would punish their child. It must be known that behavior produces response. Whether that response is good or bad depends on the original behavior. He is a just God, which means disobedience is punished. Obedience is rewarded.

quote:Moral: shut the fuck up and don’t question ‘God’s’ authority, for if you do you shall surely die and burn for all eternity.

No, the moral is: if you do not trust God and obey Him, you will suffer the consequences of your choices. Adam and Eve did not go to Hell. Disobeying God is not the unforgivable sin...rejection of Him is. They never stopped believing in Him. They are in heaven.

quote:Originally posted by Raw_Power:

Please, please, please, prove to me that we all have souls with more to back it up then "IT'S IN DA BIBLE" and "I JUST FEEL IT SO IT MUST BE SO". http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif) You can't, because there's nothing there.

What does that have to do with anything we're talking about ? *sighs*

Of course I cannot prove to you that you have a soul, over the internet. What a ridiculous thing to ask for.

Now knock off the hostility. I have answered your questions nicely, and your hateful attacks are unwarranted. Is it beyond you to be civil ? Before I even knew who you were you were calling me a retard...what is your major malfunction ?

But if they didn’t know what evil is, then how did they know it was evil to disobey god? His threat would have been baseless to them.

But once again, God can do anything, and instead of correcting the scene and destroying all evil, he allows evil to carry on and punishes ALL OF US for something two people did, even though he can do anything and can punish those two people only.

Anyway, they had no choice. If god knows everything, then God knows what choice they'll make before they make it and therefore it is set in stone and free choice is only an illusion. And I am not stating God is controlling them, I'm stating that if God knows the future, then we have no free will and it is determinism.

And once again, obviously you believe we can have freewill without evil existing, so it should be no problem for God to destroy all evil and just punish those two individuals.

It even states in the bible that children aren’t to be punished for the sins of their parents.

EDIT: oh yeah, and I like your INTERPRETATION of the moral of that story. ROFL.

[This message has been edited by Raw_Power (edited 08-11-2006).]

quote:what is your major malfunction ?

I'm just a bitch, like you. But unlike you, I can take it and dish it. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by UnknownVeritas:

2. They do eventually die, yes. However, where in their creation does it state that they are born with immortality? Maybe I simply missed something... I've never put much into the Christian/Jewish faith.

The promise God gives them, "You will perish if you eat of this fruit." implies that they were not going to perish, prior to eating the fruit.

If my daughter doesn't have a pink pony, how can I take it away from her if she misbehaves ? The pony must be in her possession before I can threaten to take it away.

quote:3. They could not attain knowledge of that which did not exist. Adam and Eve could not 'create' evil. God would be responsible. My problem lies in her stating that God is unaccountable while at the same time stating that he forces us to repent for our own natural being, for which he is obviously responsible.

He didn't FORCE them to chose. What burden does He bear, then ? He clearly gave them their options. They knew they would be punished if they disobeyed. They chose to do it anyway. So, they were punished. Yes, God created them and He knew that all that would happen. It's part of a much larger picture that we will not fully appreciate until after we die.

It cannot be said, however, that it is God's FAULT they sinned, because He created them with free will, and they chose FREELY to disobey.

Why He created us is never explained.

quote:4. I have read your definitions of God before. I understand the concepts; you're certainly not the first to suggest such a belief. However, I see no reason to slap the title of God on to an "Ultimate Reality".

This has been a bit rushed, as I must leave in a minute. I'll check back later.

His definition of God is a complete fabrication of his own mind. He has cherry-picked portions of his beliefs from other religions, and then mushed them up into the most intellectual explanation he can think of, which isn't saying much, unfortunately. He babbles endlessly about God's character, yet he provides nothing by way of proof...not even the Qur'an, which most closely characterizes his beliefs.

I personally believe he's just insane. Half the time he makes no sense, and the other half of the time he just makes baseless claims. I ceased to take him seriously long ago. I suggest you do the same.

quote:Originally posted by Raw_Power:

I'm just a bitch, like you. But unlike you, I can take it and dish it. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

I am taking it just fine, but I don't see why you need to be like that. I guess I will just stop talking to you again. If you can't be respectful, there is no reason why I should engage you in a discussion that was otherwise productive and interesting.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

I am taking it just fine, but I don't see why you need to be like that. I guess I will just stop talking to you again. If you can't be respectful, there is no reason why I should engage you in a discussion that was otherwise productive and interesting.

I'm just being myself, I see no reason in being respectful to people who have not earned my respect. If you choose not to talk to me, that is up to you.

quote:There is no logical comparison between the abused/captive and Christians.

quote:"He must beat me."

"I deserve it."

"He has no choice."

"It's for my own good."

Any Christian that would say these things to God isn't acting in accordance to Christian tenets.-Digital



Hmm i suggest a quick read through some of the OT prophets. The comparison is indeed apt...the passages where Israel is described as a wife who has become a whore .

I can't be bothered to look them all up now but you know me well enough to know that they are in there.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

You are bad by your very nature. Sin is inherent. It's genetic. It's hereditary. We are born into sin. Whether we sit in a corner never thinking or doing anything (thus avoiding behavior or thoughts that are sinful) we are still sinning.

God designed us this way, so that we would be forced to either rely on Him completely for our salvation, or rely on ourselves completely and condemn ourselves to Hell.

Moral relativism is a disease, Abrahim.

WBC much?

quote:Originally posted by hyroglyphx:

Good and bad have no meaning without an absolute framework, especially since 'good' and 'bad' convey absolute meanings. If morals are merely relative then there is no justification for criticizing anyone else's version of morality because it would be based upon our opinions. Therefore, if morals really were relative then morals don't actually exist at all. Thus, there must at first be set standard for us to have arrived any kind of relative standard.

Does that make sense, Nietzsche?



The set standard is our safety and well being. Simple as that. Things that endanger us, or put us in an unfair position are immoral. Other than that, it's just preference.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

His definition of God is a complete fabrication of his own mind. He has cherry-picked portions of his beliefs from other religions, and then mushed them up into the most intellectual explanation he can think of, which isn't saying much, unfortunately. He babbles endlessly about God's character, yet he provides nothing by way of proof...not even the Qur'an, which most closely characterizes his beliefs.

I personally believe he's just insane. Half the time he makes no sense, and the other half of the time he just makes baseless claims. I ceased to take him seriously long ago. I suggest you do the same.

"The promise God gives them, "You will perish if you eat of this fruit." implies that they were not going to perish, prior to eating the fruit.

If my daughter doesn't have a pink pony, how can I take it away from her if she misbehaves ? The pony must be in her possession before I can threaten to take it away."

Well they did have life, the threat being that they would die if they ate the fruit, but that also doesn't mean they wouldn't die eventually if they didn't eat the fruit.

It's like saying don't drink that poison you will die. Even though eventually you will die.

So if immortality is not directly stated then it can be interpreted either way.

quote:Originally posted by Raw_Power:

I'm just being myself, I see no reason in being respectful to people who have not earned my respect. If you choose not to talk to me, that is up to you.

I don't really like D_S, but this is just ridiculous. Nothing can be accomplished through personal attacks; it's not a matter of earning respect, but of being civil enough to carry on a reasonable discourse and actually, maybe, accomplish something. Flaming someone because they need to "earn your respect" is laughably idiotic. I don't see why anyone would even want it.

[This message has been edited by Twisted_Ferret II (edited 08-11-2006).]

Digi:

1. I asked for the relationship between Satan and the serpent simply because I have done a bit of research lately. It's interesting that, in the oldest Mesopotamian civilization, there are records of a deity offering wisdom and knowledge to mankind. One of the symbols for this deity was indeed a serpent.

The compilers of the Bible certainly had access to these ancient accounts, which makes similarities between the two hard to ignore. This is something for another thread, however.

2. You do take the Bible literally, do you not? How then, can you not take God's threat of death to mean that very day? Afterall, you believe in the literal interpretation of God creating the world in only a few 24 hour increments, due to the use of the word 'day'.

To reiterate, God states, "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Taken literally, this would mean that eating the fruit would cause a near-instant death. It states nothing of the 'knowledge of death', or a cross into mortality.

3. Again, God does state that they would die the day they eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. I don't see how a literal interpretation would lead to any conclusion other than a very quick death. Nowhere in Genesis or humanity's creation (that I know of) does it state that mankind was born into immortality.

4. I apologize for any confusion, as I am often confused myself. =)

There is a difference between being born into sin, and being born with the potential to do so. If we are truly born into sin, then this is clearly a flaw on the part of the designer, not the designed. If we are born with only the potential to sin, then it would indeed be possible to live a life without sin, regardless of how difficult or impossible that may seem. Yet, you do not believe in a life without sin, do you?

5. You state that God simply allows us to choose pain or pleasure. I have gotten into this debate with others in the past. Creating a being that is doomed to suffer an eternity of torment is not merciful (I doubt that I am alone in coming to this conclusion). Even if the created being chooses damnation, God knew full well the consequences of its creation. Would an omni-benevolent being not have the compassion to simply avoid creating such a miserable creature?

6. On Abrahim: I try not to take anyone too seriously. He is entitled to his beliefs. I see no reason to utterly reject the possibilities that he presents, regardless of how he came to his conclusions.

Anyway, I appreciate the responses, Digi. I'm looking forward to more.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

It was knowledge of a specific thing, which was Evil itself, that He sought to prevent us from gaining.

So if he seeks to prevent us from getting the knowledge im sure he could have done a whole lot better than just putting a big fuckin apple tree in the center of the garden of eden and saying "dont eat it or you will be punished!" i mean thats like saying to a 7 year old to not eat the cookies that are on the table right in front of him if you didnt want him to eat them in the first place. my point is he could have done a better job of actually hiding "evil" if he didnt want it to be discovered in the first place.

Oh yea and even though i referred to it as an apple tree, why does everyone automatically assume it was an apple tree? it could have been an orange tree or a peach tree or it could have been a palm tree with coconuts. just thought id bring that idea which could be another post.

quote:Originally posted by The_Big_Beef:

So if he seeks to prevent us from getting the knowledge im sure he could have done a whole lot better than just putting a big fuckin apple tree in the center of the garden of eden and saying "dont eat it or you will be punished!" i mean thats like saying to a 7 year old to not eat the cookies that are on the table right in front of him if you didnt want him to eat them in the first place. my point is he could have done a better job of actually hiding "evil" if he didnt want it to be discovered in the first place.

Oh yea and even though i referred to it as an apple tree, why does everyone automatically assume it was an apple tree? it could have been an orange tree or a peach tree or it could have been a palm tree with coconuts. just thought id bring that idea which could be another post.

I agree, if God had truly willed for humans not to have knowledge of Evil then he wouldn't have let it happen or provided the option. God provides the options both Good and Evil and reccomends for our own benefit we choose the Good over the Evil that is at the most basic the meaning of life.

[This message has been edited by Abrahim (edited 08-12-2006).]

I'm really hoping this thread doesn't fall into the abyss. Excuse the bump.

God has low self esteem so he tells us to put all our praise and affection into him and only him. I hate Christianity.

[This message has been edited by king koopa (edited 08-13-2006).]

what happened to "the sins of the father shall not be inflicted on the son" i dont rememeber the exact quote but it was something like that. that completely contradicts the whole "original sin" thing.

what happened to "the sins of the father shall not be inflicted on the son" i dont rememeber the exact quote but it was something like that. that completely contradicts the whole "original sin" thing.

quote:Originally posted by phoenix05:

The church is the biggest bullshiter ever. And lets not forget the Bible was written by man. Not God.

agreed absolutely the bible was written by men, revised by men , changed by men, made up by men, printed by men, told by men and men r the only thing to stupid as to believe it.

Where's Digital?

quote:Originally posted by 4Sight:

Where's Digital?

She runs away from 'arguments' that she cannot answer, and then occasionally comes back, makes some excuse, says 'because I have a life', and then answers nothing and runs away again.

Because really, a literalist cannot disprove that they are contradictions and bullshit. She's probably somewhere having a religious crisis and phoning lots of priests in the middle of the night, bothering them with questions.

It will be interesting to hear her response..../hint

quote:Originally posted by UnknownVeritas:

Digi:

1. I asked for the relationship between Satan and the serpent simply because I have done a bit of research lately. It's interesting that, in the oldest Mesopotamian civilization, there are records of a deity offering wisdom and knowledge to mankind. One of the symbols for this deity was indeed a serpent.

The compilers of the Bible certainly had access to these ancient accounts, which makes similarities between the two hard to ignore. This is something for another thread, however.

2. You do take the Bible literally, do you not? How then, can you not take God's threat of death to mean that very day? Afterall, you believe in the literal interpretation of God creating the world in only a few 24 hour increments, due to the use of the word 'day'.

To reiterate, God states, "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Taken literally, this would mean that eating the fruit would cause a near-instant death. It states nothing of the 'knowledge of death', or a cross into mortality.

3. Again, God does state that they would die the day they eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. I don't see how a literal interpretation would lead to any conclusion other than a very quick death. Nowhere in Genesis or humanity's creation (that I know of) does it state that mankind was born into immortality.

4. I apologize for any confusion, as I am often confused myself. =)

There is a difference between being born into sin, and being born with the potential to do so. If we are truly born into sin, then this is clearly a flaw on the part of the designer, not the designed. If we are born with only the potential to sin, then it would indeed be possible to live a life without sin, regardless of how difficult or impossible that may seem. Yet, you do not believe in a life without sin, do you?

5. You state that God simply allows us to choose pain or pleasure. I have gotten into this debate with others in the past. Creating a being that is doomed to suffer an eternity of torment is not merciful (I doubt that I am alone in coming to this conclusion). Even if the created being chooses damnation, God knew full well the consequences of its creation. Would an omni-benevolent being not have the compassion to simply avoid creating such a miserable creature?

6. On Abrahim: I try not to take anyone too seriously. He is entitled to his beliefs. I see no reason to utterly reject the possibilities that he presents, regardless of how he came to his conclusions.

Anyway, I appreciate the responses, Digi. I'm looking forward to more.

Wow, those are all good points.

quote:Originally posted by Truth is all:

lol ok God said to adam and eve, Do not eat from that tree. They did, thus evil came into the world.

ok, so why did he even create the tree in the first place. he seems like quite a prankster, teasing them with delicious fruit, and saying nyah, nyah you can't eat any!

quote:Originally posted by Truth is all:

He could have just offed adam and eve right there and started over, but instead He wanted you to live that you might hear his message and live.

he did "off" adam & eve according to the bible. does a huge flood ring a bell? Flooding the entire earth is an extremely evil thing to do. According to the bible, God is evil. I don't buy it at all.

If that caused evil to come into the world, then beforehand they wouldn't of known that it was wrong to do as god says not to.

quote:Originally posted by Raw_Power:

If that caused evil to come into the world, then beforehand they wouldn't of known that it was wrong to do as god says not to.

I just reject the idea in the first place: that fruit has, or ever has had magic powers, that a there was ever a talking snake, and that two nudists named Adam ever existed in an unearthly garden. I could go on, giving reasons why I don't believe this, but I don't even find it necessary.

No source = fail

Also, I am amazed and confused as to why Unknown Veritas doesnt comprehend the fact that there are more languages than English...

quote:2. You do take the Bible literally, do you not? How then, can you not take God's threat of death to mean that very day? Afterall, you believe in the literal interpretation of God creating the world in only a few 24 hour increments, due to the use of the word 'day'.

To reiterate, God states, "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Taken literally, this would mean that eating the fruit would cause a near-instant death. It states nothing of the 'knowledge of death', or a cross into mortality.

quote:Originally posted by UnknownVeritas:

Digi:

6. On Abrahim: I try not to take anyone too seriously. He is entitled to his beliefs. I see no reason to utterly reject the possibilities that he presents, regardless of how he came to his conclusions.



Yay!

Argon:

When Digi debates, she quotes an English Bible. She reads and literally interprets an English Bible. I guess that makes me an idiot for contradicting her own reference.

By the way, excellent job at pointing out your own religion's inconsistencies.

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

Also, I am amazed and confused as to why Unknown Veritas doesnt comprehend the fact that there are more languages than English...



I'm amazed and confused as to why you keep making a complete fool out of yourself in nearly every post you make...

1. You didn't even bother showing how the Hebrew word for "day" used in the passage he is using, signified anything else besides a literal 24 hour period (or less). Whether or not the bible was written in other languages would mean absolutely nothing if the original Hebrew still agreed with him.

2. In hebrew, the passage gives the same meaning. In fact, the word for 'day' used in Gen2:17 ("But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil thou shalt not eat of it for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" ) is the Hebrew word "yome" which meant either a 24-hour period of time, or "day" as in daylight (as opposed to night), which is exactly the same word used before in Genesis during the account of creation.

Either we take "yome" to mean something it does not mean - in which case the creation myth does not show how the universe was created in days as DS believes - or we take it literally to mean a 24 hour period, in which case the Christian god lied.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 08-24-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:



Now knock off the hostility. I have answered your questions nicely, and your hateful attacks are unwarranted. Is it beyond you to be civil ? Before I even knew who you were you were calling me a retard...what is your major malfunction ?

Holy shit. Deja vu just hit me in the face.

WHERE THE FUCK IS DIGITAL?

At least she could come back in and admit she has absolutely no response whatsoever. I just want to see it.

because she's such an annoying bitch

UnknownVeritas has OWNED Digi that she probably won't come back until the thread is in the 3rd page of My God.

That's the problem with going out to forums and preaching...you may end up finding your beliefs are utter BS. A normal person would concede. But we all know Digi is not one.

Jesus' soul (that of God) is equivalent to what is necessary to lose the sins of all of mankind, throughout whatever infinity. Therefore, while dying, his soul purged all the sins of mankind, in order to give us a second chance.

Or not.

I'm too tired to read the whole post, sorry. But i did read the first one, thats a pretty amazing statement, one of the best I've heard. I will read the rest later when im not so fucking tired, looks like a good thread.

quote:Originally posted by Raw_Power:

At the same time that Christians claim to worship God as an omnipotent, omnipresent, omnibenevolent being, they make him out to be incompetent bumbler. Or worse. Simple forgiveness is beyond his capacities. God must "sacrifice himself to himself to change a rule he made himself!"

This is not only an absurdity, it is an essential absurdity. It is present in almost all forms of Christianity, and one can scarcely remove it and remain a Christian in anything but name. By definition, all Christians worship Christ - in some form - and most worship him as a saviour.

But what, exactly, is he saving us from? Though it varies from church to church, no matter what they call it, it's God himself. A hell created by God, a world fallen as a result of God's negligence, a separation from God imposed... by God.

Christianity certainly isn't the first religion to promote appeasement of its gods, and if it were merely another supernatural protection racket, it would be bad enough. Unfortunately, it doesn't stop there. Christians elevate appeasement to the realm of "personal relationship", transforming their religion into a true monstrosity.

This is the type of "relationship" that abused wives have with their husbands, that brainwashed hostages have with their captors. It is known in clinical circles as Stockholm Syndrome. Should it come as any surprise that the cries of the church, "The Bride of Christ" sound much like the cries of an abused wife attempting to protect her husband?

"He must beat me."

"I deserve it."

"He has no choice."

"It's for my own good."

These excuses don't work for human abusers, and they work even less well for God. For if God is omnipotent, he must have a choice. And if we are flawed, we are only flawed because that is the way he made us. (No excuses that we ruined his perfect creation. A truly perfect creation does not self-destruct.)

If the Christian God does exist - and I see no reason to believe that he does - he's not worthy of the name.

And that is the ultimate absurdity of Christianity.

yo bro... hell was not created by God... the devil was an angel but he turned against God(being the fucktard that the devil is) and fell to hell YAY!

quote:Originally posted by UnknownVeritas:



3. Going along with question 2: Is it not God himself that lied to the couple? God states, "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Obviously, Adam and Eve do not die as a result of eating from the tree of knowledge.



So your saying Adam and Eve are still alive today?

In my interpretation of the Bible; God = Evil. Satan = Helper of mankind.

quote:Originally posted by Raw_Power:

"God must sacrifice himself to himself to change a rule he made himself!"

That's all you need to say.

Gator:

Either you're simply being obnoxious, or your reading comprehension skills are a bit... lacking.

quote:Originally posted by Raw_Power:

But wait a minute, isn't everyone an atheist until they learn of Christ, most likely through being preached the bible?

What I think you really means is: someone willing to believe in imaginary beings. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

dude...wow

if digital didn't just blow off arguments she can't respond to, she'd have to admit being totally nailed on that one.

Here is where we make the very real, and very obvious, and very cliched comparison of God to Hitler and Stalin.

Hitler wiped out a village, Stalin wiped out huge portions of the Ukraine, and God condemned billions of people to being born in sin and liable for eternal pain.

Collective punishment is a real bitch.

quote:Originally posted by Truth is all:

He could have just offed adam and eve right there and started over, but instead He wanted you to live that you might hear his message and live.



That would be preferable. Then there aren't billions of souls doomed to hell for eternity.

Hey who remembers this thread? I sure do.

Where you at Digital? It's been a while now, have you got a response yet or are you still running away?

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

You are bad by your very nature. Sin is inherent. It's genetic. It's hereditary. We are born into sin. Whether we sit in a corner never thinking or doing anything (thus avoiding behavior or thoughts that are sinful) we are still sinning.

God designed us this way, so that we would be forced to either rely on Him completely for our salvation, or rely on ourselves completely and condemn ourselves to Hell.

Moral relativism is a disease, Abrahim.

Wow. Thats disgusting. And you people honestly take offense at being called "lambs without voice in the hands of executioners"?

quote:Originally posted by 4Sight:

Hey who remembers this thread? I sure do.

Where you at Digital? It's been a while now, have you got a response yet or are you still running away?

This thread isn't that big of a deal. I remember it but it didn't get that much bigger since the last time I saw it.

quote:Originally posted by Aft3r ImaGe:

This thread isn't that big of a deal. I remember it but it didn't get that much bigger since the last time I saw it.

What?

The point of reviving it is because Digital likes to insult people who can't debate yet she runs away from arguments when she's clearly lost.

quote:Originally posted by 4Sight:



What?

The point of reviving it is because Digital likes to insult people who can't debate yet she runs away from arguments when she's clearly lost.

Remember Origins and Civil Librities?

We all know she does that.

It was actually around 10 pages long and the debate went on. We do however have 6 pages archived.

Here you go. Feel free to browse. (https://www.totse.com/bbs/Archives/Archive-000001/HTML/20060707-15-005373.html)

I also saved several of the pages onto my computer as text files if you need them.

I have full pages through page 11.

People have even suggested that Digital_Saviors "eventful" past is fiction (http://tinyurl.com/y7sk7h) or at least blown out of proportion. Thats up to you to judge though.

In my opinion if you want to resurrect a thread make it Origins. That was the longest debate I've ever seen in this forum.

Heres the unarchived full version:

Here is is (http://tinyurl.com/y3g2vr)

That is page 17 of that thread. Your welcome to browse that too.



[This message has been edited by Aft3r ImaGe (edited 11-05-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Raw_Power:

But if they didn’t know what evil is, then how did they know it was evil to disobey god? His threat would have been baseless to them.

This has never been answered to my satisfaction. I just noticed that Digi never replied to it.

Digital is able to defend herself.. she dont need my help (not that i'm capable of defending anything).

With that said, i would like to toss into the mix and observation or two that i've noticed...

There are very few people in the MGCBTSOYG forum, that are held to the level that many of the members hold Digital to.

Yes, this is partly due to the level that she brings to the debate. But i know i've lost track of who raised the bar first.

I know that when i first noticed her posts, many people would make comments that were not backed up with facts, and those very same people would expect her to back up her facts... and she usually did.

And, back then atleast (i havent been around much lately, and even when i read some of the topics and posts, so i dont know if it's still this way, or to what extent) if she was shown to be wrong, she would admit it. If her arguement was shown lacking, she usually stepped it up.. with both research and thinking.... she didnt get to be noticed by ya'll by making simple, two-bit comments. She somewhat got to be an icon.. a target, that people felt it was an accomplishment to win an arguement from.

Another thing i noticed is that there are more people with anti-Christian comments, arguements, viewpoints, and questions.. than there was Digitals. I'd say that considering the numerical odds, she did make a pretty good attempt to respond to most comers.

I know from experience that answering the same questions over and over (to the ever new Totsean), can get tiresome. Even Lost Cause has said, on occasion, to the effect of, "same topic, same shit, different person". It seems to me that she has even lock some threads because there were so many of the same kind. I'm not attacking Lost Cause here, i'm just saying that it isnt just Digital that could "snap under pressure" (not saying that she snapped).. why dont some of you try defending your beliefs, to the degree and timeline that she did... oh wait, many of you have the same or similar belief.

I dont know the motivation of any poster, when a link to a previous thread is posted, and a comment like, "this has been done to death.. here, check this link" (i think i've seen this, maybe not. but if i have, is that an indication that that poster has become weary of the same old thing? or is it an indication of just an attempt to bring the new person up to speed, with minimal effort?)

Granted, some of the topics raised are already close to a nerve of most people. But shouldnt that be taken into account also?

If someone wants to fly into the forum and yell, "Christians are fags" or something like it, in order to flame someone.. most people kinda let it roll off their back.

But when regulars (to this forum, i've spent very little time in any of the other forums) attack, then it isnt a forum of learning and sharing, it becomes just another SG.

It seems to me, that the regulars of MGCBTSOYG are generally taking the topic seriously, and as such, should be conducting themselves in the spirit of learning, not attacking... if not, atleast treat the others that do take it serious, with alittle respect. If that cant be done, stick to SG, where it is not only allowed, but expected.

I'm not saying to treat others with kid gloves.. hey, everyone has an opinion and feels the need to defend it. Whether you think science has proven the Bible (and any/all religions) wrong, or if you are like me, that hold to YEC.. we all are apologists of our own sort. A belief will be attacked, maybe even a person, but try to remember that there isnt the need to be relentlessly hostile... and i dont ever remember Digital relentlessly attacking a person.. usually she was being cornered, and fighting back.

For whatever that was worth,

God Bless,

johnny

quote:Originally posted by jackketch:

-Digital



Hmm i suggest a quick read through some of the OT prophets. The comparison is indeed apt...the passages where Israel is described as a wife who has become a whore .

I can't be bothered to look them all up now but you know me well enough to know that they are in there.

I said Christians, not Israel.

Heh, thanks, Johnny.

To the rest, I will focus on this thread tomorrow, if I have some time.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Too bad he didn't write it, nor did he include original thought of his own to expound upon the concept.

LostCause should lock this thread on principle alone.



Why? Because you disagree with it? Or are you afraid that your beliefs will be questioned?

quote:Originally posted by UnknownVeritas:

Digi:

1. I asked for the relationship between Satan and the serpent simply because I have done a bit of research lately. It's interesting that, in the oldest Mesopotamian civilization, there are records of a deity offering wisdom and knowledge to mankind. One of the symbols for this deity was indeed a serpent.

The compilers of the Bible certainly had access to these ancient accounts, which makes similarities between the two hard to ignore. This is something for another thread, however.

First, do you know for a fact that the authors of the Bible, who lived at many different points in time (most of which didn't even know each other), were familiar with this deity and it's serpent-like symbol ?

Also, the vague nature of this point is bothersome. If you would be so kind, expound a little so I can actually debate it.

quote:2. You do take the Bible literally, do you not? How then, can you not take God's threat of death to mean that very day? Afterall, you believe in the literal interpretation of God creating the world in only a few 24 hour increments, due to the use of the word 'day'.

Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death; but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Sin = death

The Tree of Knowledge represented sin.

God was literal when He said that Adam and Eve would die if they ate of the Tree of Knowledge. They ate, and they died. There is no timeline given by God, so there is no "literal" interpretation to be had, other than they ate, and they died.

God specified a timeline during creation. He specified "day", and He markedly pointed out the ending and beginning of each NEW day.

quote:To reiterate, God states, "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Taken literally, this would mean that eating the fruit would cause a near-instant death. It states nothing of the 'knowledge of death', or a cross into mortality.

From the Jewish Bible:

Genesis 2:16 - Adonai, God, gave the person this order, "You may freely eat from any tree in the garden. 17 except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. You are not to eat from it, because on the day you eat from it, it will become certain that you will die."

Again, there is no timeline given, only the promise that death will come to them. Later:

Genesis 2:22 - Adonai, God, said, "See, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil. Now to prevent his putting out his hand and taking also from the tree of life, eating, and living forever - " 23 therefore Adonai, God, sent him out of the garden of 'Eden to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.

See it now ?

quote:3. Again, God does state that they would die the day they eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. I don't see how a literal interpretation would lead to any conclusion other than a very quick death. Nowhere in Genesis or humanity's creation (that I know of) does it state that mankind was born into immortality.

See above.

quote:4. I apologize for any confusion, as I am often confused myself. =)

S'alright. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:There is a difference between being born into sin, and being born with the potential to do so. If we are truly born into sin, then this is clearly a flaw on the part of the designer, not the designed. If we are born with only the potential to sin, then it would indeed be possible to live a life without sin, regardless of how difficult or impossible that may seem. Yet, you do not believe in a life without sin, do you?

God created Adam and Eve sinless and perfect. When they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, they introduced sin into humanity. Now, there is no one born sinless.

Psalm 51:5 - True, I was born guilty, was a sinner from the moment my mother conceived me.

God didn't create Adam and Eve with the flaw of inherent sin. They screwed up, and sin is the punishment.

Their screw up was, however, necessary. In order for us to need God's mercy, grace, and forgiveness, we had to be incapable of providing such things to ourselves.

quote:5. You state that God simply allows us to choose pain or pleasure.

Do you mean heaven and hell ?

quote:I have gotten into this debate with others in the past. Creating a being that is doomed to suffer an eternity of torment is not merciful (I doubt that I am alone in coming to this conclusion).

God didn't create Adam and Eve "doomed to suffer". He gave them a choice, just as He gives us all a choice. All you have to do is choose Him over yourself, and you can avoid Hell.

quote:Even if the created being chooses damnation, God knew full well the consequences of its creation. Would an omni-benevolent being not have the compassion to simply avoid creating such a miserable creature?

You are putting God in the position of forgoing the purpose of creation (relationship) for the sake of omnibenevolence, when it is not your decision to make. Whether you understand God's mercy in application to His creation or not is irrelevant, and doesn't change the way things are.

The sin is necessary. It is obvious from how things have played out, and how the Bible is written, that God relies on our dependency of His mercy and grace (salvation from our sins) to make the relationship between Him and us work.

quote:6. On Abrahim: I try not to take anyone too seriously. He is entitled to his beliefs. I see no reason to utterly reject the possibilities that he presents, regardless of how he came to his conclusions.

I have spent hours explaining my beliefs to him, and listening to him fumble up his own. I have earned the right to blow him off here, as what he does is nothing more than a waste of time and a distraction to the real debate at hand.

quote:Anyway, I appreciate the responses, Digi. I'm looking forward to more.

You're welcome. Sorry it took me so long on this one. I forgot about it. I know you told your brother 4Sight that you'd seen me post after that, but I honestly don't remember.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 11-05-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by AnAsTaSiO:



Why? Because you disagree with it? Or are you afraid that your beliefs will be questioned?

http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

It's pretty well known that personal opinions are valued on this site. If we all sat around plagiarizing others, what would be the point ? It would be great if people would think for themselves. Reference the paper, yes...but do not construct your entire thread opener out of someone else's ideas, and contribute nothing of your own.

Nice try, but no cigar.

quote:Posted by Raw_Power:

But if they didn’t know what evil is, then how did they know it was evil to disobey god? His threat would have been baseless to them.

They knew that God had told them not to do something. Whether they fully understood what "evil" was is unknown, and ultimately irrelevant.

Let us assume that there is a toddler that has not ever been burned. When his parents tell him not to touch a hot surface because he will be burned, does he understand what it truly means to be burned ? No. But he does understand that his parents do not want him to do so, and there will be some sort of undesirable consequence. On that level, the child is conditioned to pause and give thought to touching hot things. Eventually, he will be burned (whether on purpose or not), and the words of his parents will take on a different meaning than they'd had prior to his being burned. He will understand that they were right, and that they had his best interests in mind.

It is the same thing.

Why, then, did he plant the tree of good and evil in the garden? If you’re going to say ‘to allow them the freewill to choose’, well, I have this to say: you wouldn’t give your child the freewill to choose between standing in the middle of the road and being hit by a truck, you’d move him off the road quickly. Well, maybe not, maybe you'd want him to be hit by the truck and therefore understand you had his "best interest" at heart.

Also, once again, if God is omniscient, there is no freewill. I’ve yet to see anyone refute this. Therefore, God planted the tree, knowing they would eat from it, causing their deaths. They were victims not of their own choice, but of God’s choice.

[This message has been edited by Raw_Power (edited 11-05-2006).]

In my Bible, New International Version, in Genesis 3:22: "And the Lord God said, 'The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live for ever.' So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken."

To me, this implies that God is trying to keep man down, keep man a slave, because his authority has been threatened. But once again, why plant the tree of life if he did not want them eating from it? Also, doesn't this imply they were mortal before eating from the tree of good and evil?

edit - and to prove it is in more then one version, my mother's King James Version, Genesis 3:22: "And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the Garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken."





[This message has been edited by Raw_Power (edited 11-05-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Raw_Power:

In my Bible, New International Version, in Genesis 3:22: "And the Lord God said, 'The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live for ever.' So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken."

To me, this implies that God is trying to keep man down, keep man a slave, because his authority has been threatened.

God expelled Adam and Eve from the garden AFTER they sinned against Him. How is that an instance of God trying to keep the man down ? http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

quote:But once again, why plant the tree of life if he did not want them eating from it?

It was the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil He didn't want them eating from.

quote:Also, doesn't this imply they were mortal before eating from the tree of good and evil?

No. It implies that though they were created perfect and sinless (without death), they screwed up and ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil (introducing death). The tree of life could then be consumed, and offer them eternal life, once again. God was punishing them by preventing them access to it.

quote:edit - and to prove it is in more then one version, my mother's King James Version, Genesis 3:22: "And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the Garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken."

I have a Bible. You don't need to post more than one translation for me. Thanks.

No, the passage clearly states he expels them to keep them eating from the tree of life. Read it again.

Genesis 3:22: "And the Lord God said, 'The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live for ever.' So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken."



[This message has been edited by Raw_Power (edited 11-05-2006).]

quote: But once again, why plant the tree of life if he did not want them eating from it?

To which I responded that it wasn't the Tree of Life He didn't want them eating from. It was the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Once they ate from that, He expelled them from the Garden so they could never eat from the Tree of Life again. They had full access to it before they sinned.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 11-05-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

I never disagreed with that. Read it again.

I have to disagree with you, however. To me, it appears as though he did not want them becoming like him. God is perfect - is he not? - and he had knowledge of good and evil. Therefore they could be perfect and have knowledge of good and evil, so he stopped them from becoming like him.

quote:Originally posted by Raw_Power:

I have to disagree with you, however. To me, it appears as though he did not want them becoming like him. God is perfect - is he not? - and he had knowledge of good and evil. Therefore they could be perfect and have knowledge of good and evil, so he stopped them from becoming like him.

No. God is all powerful and all knowing. He knew what they would do. God has no regret and He doesn't say, "Oops".

After acquiring knowledge of good and evil, God took away their right to eat of the Tree of Life, which would again grant them immortality. That would be like rewarding them for their sin.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 11-05-2006).]

quote:It was the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Once they ate from that, He expelled them from the Garden so they could never eat from the Tree of Life again. They had full access to it before they sinned.

Right, because he didn't want them becoming like him. God has knowledge of good and evil, and he is perfect and "sinless".

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

No. God is all powerful and all knowing. He knew what they would do. God has no regret and He doesn't say, "Oops".

After acquiring knowledge of good and evil, God took away their right to eating of the Tree of Life, which would again grant them immortality. That would be like rewarding them for their sin.

God knows everything, therefore he knew what they would do, therefore they have no freewill because their action is set in stone. He planted the tree there purposely for them to eat, become sinful, and be cast out. What a nice god. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

[This message has been edited by Raw_Power (edited 11-05-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Raw_Power:

Right, because he didn't want them becoming like him. God has knowledge of good and evil, and he is perfect and "sinless".

You can invent whatever reason you'd like, but it's simply not scriptural. God is incapable of creating something He cannot control, or that will behave outside of the parameters He creates them to abide by.

If you want to think so, it's your perogative, but that's nowhere in the Bible.

quote:Originally posted by Raw_Power:

In my Bible, New International Version, in Genesis 3:22: "And the Lord God said, 'The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live for ever.' So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken."

To me, this implies that God is trying to keep man down, keep man a slave, because his authority has been threatened. But once again, why plant the tree of life if he did not want them eating from it? Also, doesn't this imply they were mortal before eating from the tree of good and evil?

edit - and to prove it is in more then one version, my mother's King James Version, Genesis 3:22: "And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the Garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken."

).]

Hi Raw,

If you dont mind, i'm not going to research it right now. I'd just like to offer a differnt way to think about it...

So you think it might be possible that, instead of keeping "man down, keep man a slave, because his authority has been threatened", God may have known that since they had Spiritually died when they ate of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, they would have to have the ability to die physically, so that they didnt have to live for eternity in their Sin?



I need coffee... JackKetch, care to join me?

johnny

quote:Originally posted by Raw_Power:

God knows everything, therefore he knew what they would do, therefore they have no freewill because their action is set in stone. He planted the tree there purposely for them to eat, become sinful, and be cast out. What a nice god. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

His knowing what they would do did not force them to do anything.

However, this thread is not about predestination, in case you hadn't noticed.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

You can invent whatever reason you'd like, but it's simply not scriptural. God is incapable of creating something He cannot control, or that will behave outside of the parameters He creates them to abide by.

If you want to think so, it's your perogative, but that's nowhere in the Bible.

God is perfect, and God has knowledge of good and evil. That implies you can be perfect and have knowledge of good and evil.

There is also no evidence he kicked them out for eating the tree of good and evil, it's clear in that passage that it was to keep them from eating from the tree of life and become like him, but you read into it a punishment.

[This message has been edited by Raw_Power (edited 11-05-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

His knowing what they would do did not force them to do anything.

However, this thread is not about predestination, in case you hadn't noticed.

No, his knowing means it was set in stone. He knows everything, so he knows every outcome and which is chosen. Meaning it was set in stone before it happened. That is not freewill. Saying it is doesn't make it so, which is simply what you are doing. And it fits into this argument, to show how bogus the whole story is.

[This message has been edited by Raw_Power (edited 11-05-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Raw_Power:

God is perfect, and God has knowledge of good and evil. That implies you can be perfect and have knowledge of good and evil.

No. That implies that God is omnipotent and can be all things. If God wanted to make us that way, He would have. He didn't. Deal with it.

quote:There is also no evidence he kicked them out for eating the tree of good and evil, it's clear in that passage that it was to keep them from eating from the tree of life and become like them, but you read into it a punishment.

What the hell are you talking about ? The scripture clearly tells us He forbade them to eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. When they did, He banished them from the garden. READ IT.

How is it not a punishment to kick them out of the place He created for them to be a source of endless beauty and sustinence ? Read the whole chapter. He tells them why it's a punishment...they will have to work hard and sweat to get food from the ground after that. No more cushy life. No more eternal life. No more easy street.

READ IT.

quote:Originally posted by Raw_Power:

No, his knowing means it was set in stone. He knows everything, so he knows every outcome and which is chosen. Meaning it was set in stone before it happened. That is not freewill. Saying it is doesn't make it so, which is simply what you are doing. And it fits into this argument, to show how bogus the whole story is.

You have failed to prove how KNOW = FORCE. Just saying it does not make it so.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

What the hell are you talking about ? The scripture clearly tells us He forbade them to eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. When they did, He banished them from the garden. READ IT.

How is it not a punishment to kick them out of the place He created for them to be a source of endless beauty and sustinence ? Read the whole chapter. He tells them why it's a punishment...they will have to work hard and sweat to get food from the ground after that. No more cushy life. No more eternal life. No more easy street.

READ IT.

quote:"And the Lord God said, 'The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live for ever.' So the Lord God banished him from th

He's kicking them out to keep them from eating the tree of life. His punishment was painful childbirth, etc.

I think that maybe it is you who should read it.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

You have failed to prove how KNOW = FORCE. Just saying it does not make it so.

no, him knowing isn't the force, his knowing proves there is a force that sets it one way. Him knowing it is going to happen before it does happen, proves it is set in stone.

[This message has been edited by Raw_Power (edited 11-05-2006).]

Anyway, it's 5:10 a.m. and I have been deathly ill for the past week. I am surprised I made it this long without passing out.

I'ma go to bed. Try not to pretend that I am gone because I am skeered of your debate skillz. :P

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Anyway, it's 5:10 a.m. and I have been deathly ill for the past week. I am surprised I made it this long without passing out.

I'ma go to bed. Try not to pretend that I am gone because I am skeered of your debate skillz. :P

I don't need to pretend. Nice excuses.

quote:Originally posted by Raw_Power:

He's kicking them out to keep them from eating the tree of life. His punishment was painful childbirth, etc.

I think that maybe it is you who should read it.

Sorry, but it says a lot more than that. Read it, and get your head out of your ass.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Sorry, but it says a lot more than that. Read it, and get your head out of your ass.

I have read it, I read it three times this morning. I seriously think it is you that needs to re-read it. Now go rest up, little one, you want to get better.

[This message has been edited by Raw_Power (edited 11-05-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Raw_Power:

I don't need to pretend. Nice excuses.

Well, the alternative is that you can just kiss my ass, you pretentious bastard. *shrugs*

As long as you enjoy this, you should offer me some respect. I answered your ridiculous questions, though it is clear you haven't a modicum of understanding when it comes to scripture or God's nature. You can't even see how impossibly infantile and ridiculous your questions are, because you've never studied these things. Yet, I answer you, and patiently. The least you could do is have some decency and not say retarded shit like, "You're running away" when I've put up with you for almost an hour now.

quote:Originally posted by Raw_Power:

no, him knowing isn't the force, his knowing proves there is a force that sets it one way. Him knowing it is going to happen before it does happen, proves it is set in stone.

PROOF

1. evidence sufficient to establish a thing as true, or to produce belief in its truth.

2. anything serving as such evidence



I'll be waiting...

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Well, the alternative is that you can just kiss my ass, you pretentious bastard. *shrugs*

As long as you enjoy this, you should offer me some respect. I answered your ridiculous questions, though it is clear you haven't a modicum of understanding when it comes to scripture or God's nature. You can't even see how impossibly infantile and ridiculous your questions are, because you've never studied these things. Yet, I answer you, and patiently. The least you could do is have some decency and not say retarded shit like, "You're running away" when I've put up with you for almost an hour now.

Sure, sure, I haven't an understanding of the scripture. I have studied the scripture, and I seriously do not believe you have read the story of Adam and Eve, either that, or you're making up scriptures in your head.

You see, you may say I don't have an understand to make yourself feel safe, but that's all it is. Now please, pretty please, let me kiss your ass.

quote:Originally posted by Raw_Power:

I have read it, I read it three times this morning. I seriously think it is you that needs to re-read it. Now go rest up, little one, you want to get better.

Then read it again, because death and banishment from 'Eden ARE punishments. If you cannot even derive such a simple concept as this, you will never understand the more IMPORTANT parts of the Bible.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

PROOF

1. evidence sufficient to establish a thing as true, or to produce belief in its truth.

2. anything serving as such evidence



I'll be waiting...

Oh, I'm sorry, logic not good enough for you? I guess not, considering you believe in The Bible.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Then read it again, because death and banishment from 'Eden ARE punishments. If you cannot even derive such a simple concept as this, you will never understand the more IMPORTANT parts of the Bible.

No, it is not a punishment for eating from the tree of good and evil. You really need to re-read the book.

No please, get some rest, I don't want you to get sicker. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

[This message has been edited by Raw_Power (edited 11-05-2006).]

Safe ? Safe from what ? I am doing you a favor by participating in this thread. No one else has come remotely close to offering you an answer to your questions.

I have nothing to fear from you, trust me.

Goodnight.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

Safe ? Safe from what ? I am doing you a favor by participating in this thread. No one else has come remotely close to offering you an answer to your questions.

I have nothing to fear from you, trust me.

Goodnight.

Sure. Goodnight. I'm just going to post the punishments:

Genesis 3:14: "And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise thy heel.

"Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

"And unto Adam he said, because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

"Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

"In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it was thou taken: for dust thou are, and unto dust shalt thou return."

No where does he literally say "I am banishing you from the garden for eating of the tree of good and evil". To me, it more implies man didn't need to eat, and now he must and starve, and that all of earth is cursed, including the garden. You're reading as much into it as me.

Now let's see God's actual reason for banishing them:

Genesis 3:22: "And the Lord God said, 'The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live for ever.' So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken."

Yep, you guessed it, so they can't eat from the tree of life and be even more like him.

Please, DS, READ YOUR FUCKING BIBLE.



[This message has been edited by Raw_Power (edited 11-05-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Raw_Power:

God is perfect, and God has knowledge of good and evil. That implies you can be perfect and have knowledge of good and evil.

There is also no evidence he kicked them out for eating the tree of good and evil, it's clear in that passage that it was to keep them from eating from the tree of life and become like him, but you read into it a punishment.



Hi Raw,

where you say, "it's clear in that passage that it was to keep them from eating from the tree of life and become like him,".

You already have shown that the bolded part is incorrect, atleast in the NIV and KJV that you prevoiusly quoted.

quote:In my Bible, New International Version, in Genesis 3:22: "And the Lord God said, 'The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live for ever.' So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken."

To me, this implies that God is trying to keep man down, keep man a slave, because his authority has been threatened. But once again, why plant the tree of life if he did not want them eating from it? Also, doesn't this imply they were mortal before eating from the tree of good and evil?

edit - and to prove it is in more then one version, my mother's King James Version, Genesis 3:22: "And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the Garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken."

I think the thought here (again, with out searching and without coffee) is that they had already become like God in that they now had the quantity called "knowing good and evil".

Your right, they were evicted for the sake of keeping them from also eating of the Tree of Life.

If they were allowed to do this, after having done that, it would be, in effect, worse because it would be sealing their (and our) fate... allowing them (and us) to be alive physically but dead spiritually (walking dead, a kind of zombie, if you will)

johnny

Yes, but how is that so? God is very spiritual, and he knows about Good and Evil. You are spiritual and worship God, yet you know of Good and Evil.

And I'm glad a Christian finally agrees with me that they were kicked out to keep them from eating from the tree of life, and not as a punishment for eating from the tree of good and evil. It was really getting quite annoying that so many disagreed with me, even though it was right there in the Bible. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

It also annoys me how they disagree on the free will thing. If he knows in advanced 100% that it is going to happen, then it is the only thing that’ll happen and there are no other options, therefore proving that there is something that keeps man from having freewill. It’s more logical than what DS was saying.

And I’m still waiting for a response to this:

quote:Why, then, did he plant the tree of good and evil in the garden? If you’re going to say ‘to allow them the freewill to choose’, well, I have this to say: you wouldn’t give your child the freewill to choose between standing in the middle of the road and being hit by a truck, you’d move him off the road quickly. Well, maybe not, maybe you'd want him to be hit by the truck and therefore understand you had his "best interest" at heart.

[This message has been edited by Raw_Power (edited 11-05-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Raw_Power:

Yes, but how is that so? God is very spiritual, and he knows about Good and Evil. You are spiritual and worship God, yet you know of Good and Evil.

Why do you and i know of Good and Evil?

From a YEC perspective (even OEC perspective, but less so), we know of Good & Evil because our parents (Adam & Eve) recieved that quality from disobeying God by eating from the Forbidden Tree. Passing this quality to their children.. not by teaching (it's the quality i'm talking about, not the experience or morals), but through birth.



quote:And I'm glad a Christian finally agrees with me that they were kicked out to keep them from eating from the tree of life, and not as a punishment for eating from the tree of good and evil.



Respectfully, this is a word of caution..

Just because i or anyother Christian agrees with you on a point or points of God's Word.. dont use it to justify your belief.

We are human and could be wrong too. Or there is the possibility that you and i are right, but are missing an important piece. Or there is the possibility that we are both correct in the point, but one or the other has used it to justify a wrong belief and the other person thinks, "hey, we agree so now there is no problem here", and stops trying to help the other to right understanding (this last example often tends to be a case of misunderstanding terms.. like when i thought that the term 'immaculate conception' was limmitted to the conception of Christ, but the Catholics use the term to also describe Mary's birth too. (this is relevant to the discussion, since they derive that understanding from -well, in part anyway --the account of the Eden Curses) ).

Digital is not wrong, though. The expulsion from Eden is an implied part of the Curse.. but it is also a blessing. The Garden still existed(atleast presummably) until it was destroyed in the Flood... The Curse part is implied in that they cant just go pick stuff off the the other trees in the Garden, but have to toil to live; the Blessing is that they have the ability to die, since they can not eat from the Tree of Life.

What i think is happening here, and i could very well be wrong, is that Digital has already understood some points, that it is so apparent to her, that she might feel as if it is equally clear to all. She might be skipping over stuff, that someone that has not reached that level, needs her to take it alittle slower.

I'm not accusing you of being "dumb" or her of being above; I'm just pointing out that she has gone through some growth in faith that makes somethings more clear, based on other things that had to be understood.

Simple example (not an analogy of you and Digi, just an exagerated example): A grade school kid that can do basic math, goes up to a math Professor and asks him for his professional definition of calculus. If the Prof doesnt tone down the answer, the kid could easily think that the old guy doesnt know math. The Prof has to water down the answer to the kid's level, AND go step by step.

quote:It was really getting quite annoying that so many disagreed with me, even though it was right there in the Bible. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

That annoyance happens to the lot of us. Learn what it feels like so that you can be more gracious and patient to those that you try to help.

Atleast, that's what i try to do. And often i fail in this too... we are human.

johnny

I find it hilarious how these people still believe the bible is enough evidence to back up any delusional claim they make. If Christians only knew how dumb they sound...

Hi Raw, long time no see http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

quote:It also annoys me how they disagree on the free will thing. If he knows in advanced 100% that it is going to happen, then it is the only thing that’ll happen and there are no other options, therefore proving that there is something that keeps man from having freewill. It’s more logical than what DS was saying.

In my opinion, the free will/problem of Evil arguement that is used in Totse is a good arguement against strict Calvinism (except for the fact that strict Calvinism doesnt believe in free-will).

i would rather not get into the F-W/PoE discussion right now.. it's very draining and time consuming. (i think the last major one i was in lasted a couple of months w/ mostly Rust and myself, and neither of us swayed the other).

I will, however sum up a couple of points and then direct you to a site that i just found the other day. (Although it does not necessarily or specifically agree with me, i found it short but clear and pretty thorough, given it's brevity)

Some of points against the Totsean arguement are basically :

a. only some of God's Divine attributes are acknowledged in the Totse version of the PoE. (i.e. God, being omnipotent, would have the power to separate His fore-knowledge of our actions from our ability of choice)

b. we dont know (apart from what He has revealed to us) what His plan is.. therefore to assume that God is not Loving (or non-existent) because He doesnt do what we think is the overall good, falls short as an arguement (not necessarily fails, but i would lean toward that)

c. we place what we think is the timeline that God should have eliminated evil, on our terms .. e.g. that it never should have happened .. but that is both ignoring a. and b. not to mention that it is assuming Evil exists.. but in order to judge whether something is Evil, is to assume something is Good.. and to assume something is Good, you have to assume a Maker of Good.

d. although the concept of predestination is found in the Bible, so is the concept of the ability to choose to do good or not... and often within a verse or two from verses pointing to predestination.

e. that human logic is Absolute Authority



My stance on free will is that we are allowed limited free will, in balance (or rather, coinciding) with predestination.

OK, i know that didnt solve it for you. The debate has been going on for a few years.. St. Augustine, i think, argued it. And the tide has turned back and forth over the centuries.

Doubtful if it will be solved in our lifetime, apart from maybe during the End-times, if they happen while we still are alive.

Anyway, here is that site i mentioned, hope you find some sufficient answers:

http://www .apologeti cs.com/def ault.jsp?b odycontent =/articles /doctrinal _apologeti cs/bowman-job.html

quote:And I’m still waiting for a response to this:



quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why, then, did he plant the tree of good and evil in the garden? If you’re going to say ‘to allow them the freewill to choose’, well, I have this to say: you wouldn’t give your child the freewill to choose between standing in the middle of the road and being hit by a truck, you’d move him off the road quickly. Well, maybe not, maybe you'd want him to be hit by the truck and therefore understand you had his "best interest" at heart.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Sorry, i dont recall seeing this before, was it originally addressed to me? No matter, i'll make an attempt anyway.

I hope posts that i've made so far today in this thread have given us a basis to work from. I'm going to break down your post, to make it easier for me to work with.

a. Why, then, did he plant the tree of good and evil in the garden?

I dont know. I'm not sure that Scripture says.

We can make a guess... i'm going to guess that it has something to do with free will... a free choice to accept God at His word, a free choice to choose God over self.

Maybe it is not free choice in the stricter sense, but maybe free choice allowed for having knowledge of Good and Evil, thus then allowing for an understanding of God.

Just a question that just occured to me (and i havent thought through it, so i dont have an answer myself):

Is it possible to know God (in a greater capacity than Adam & Eve did, while God "walked among the Garden") without knowing Good & Evil?... remember before when i said that the assumption of Evil is the assumption of Good in which to judge what is Evil?

OK. we can both work on that one.. moving on.

b. If you’re going to say ‘to allow them the freewill to choose’, well,

ooops, sorry.. i guess we can move on to the next (see, in a sense of humor, that is predestination and free will in balance LOL http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif) just kidding )

c. I have this to say: you wouldn’t give your child the freewill to choose between standing in the middle of the road and being hit by a truck, you’d move him off the road quickly.

i'm not sure this analogy holds. I have no ability to save the kid from death after she dies (i have daughters.. step-daughters.. and when i tell 'em to go play in the road, they dont listen anyway http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif) )

The other point that is not the same in the example is that "my quickly" is different from the Everlasting, in that God is not bound by time. He also has the Knowledge of what happens after the truck, in this instance... and the Knowledge of His Plan.

Where i do see a similarity in your "truck encounter" is that since Jesus died in our place, death is more like the shadow of the truck, and we get to choose between getting hit by the shadow or by the truck.

d. Well, maybe not, maybe you'd want him to be hit by the truck and therefore understand you had his "best interest" at heart.

I neither want my girls to be hit by the truck nor you to get hit by the truck.

God has already provided the way to avoid the truck... so, shadow or truck.. your choice.

See ya in the shadow? http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

God Bless,]

johnny

what's up with those annoying embedded bolding tags?



I thought maybe it was a result of using notepad in the other thread, but this time i just used Totse reply box.

If the bolding in the last post makes it difficult to understand, let me know and i'll edit... else it stays as is.

johnny

quote:Originally posted by DrGay:

I find it hilarious how these people still believe the bible is enough evidence to back up any delusional claim they make. If Christians only knew how dumb they sound...

Care to enlighten us delusional, dumb Christians?

Or to you prefer to ridicule?

Keep in mind though, today is the last day of my vacation, so i wont be participating as much as i have in this past week.

johnny

quote:Originally posted by DrGay:

I find it hilarious how these people still believe the bible is enough evidence to back up any delusional claim they make. If Christians only knew how dumb they sound...

Christians aren't dumb, but I have to agree that when they start talking about talking serpents and fruit which if eaten gives knowledge of good and evil, they start to sound it. Really, the only evidence they have that supports Christianity only is The Bible, and that's nothing spectacular.

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

Care to enlighten us delusional, dumb Christians?

Or to you prefer to ridicule?

Keep in mind though, today is the last day of my vacation, so i wont be participating as much as i have in this past week.

johnny



Sorry about that, I had just blown a line of oxycodone and should've kept that comment to myself.

Well Digital, I must commend you for finally responding. I look forward to UV's response.

quote:Originally posted by DrGay:

Sorry about that, I had just blown a line of oxycodone and should've kept that comment to myself.

i'm not offended, so no "sorry" is necessary.

I dont know your background or you age or your experience in life, but consider the fact that PhD's in Theology, Pastors, and even the Christian grandma, are all learning deeper understandings of God's Word... over a lifetime.

How much less right does one have to think it foolish with just a couple of thoughts that dont seem to make sense?

Although comments like yours dont offend me, they do make me curious to know if those very same people that "think it foolish with just a couple of thoughts that dont seem to make sense" have ever wondered if the Pastors and PhD's, and even lil' ole granny, have ever encountered those difficulties so easily rendered as foolishness.

More than likely, people more often than not, just toss those questions into the foolishness pile, by an equally shallow explaination of "blind faith".

OK, i'm going to sound disrespectful here, because i'm not sure how to put it in a nicer way... it is not meant to be mean, or to cut you down:

I've heard it said, that the Christian uses the Bible and belief in God, as a crutch.

What of those that use oxycodone (i'm just meaning prescription drugs i.e. relying on doctors and medicine), alcohol, non-prescription drugs, fame, riches, knowledge, power, etc.?

Can't all these be used as crutches?

For how long do they satisfy?

Can they be used to the detriment of the individual? Or people around them?

Can they be used to the degree that the person doesnt even know (or denies) the harm?

I'm not saying that each of those things a necessarily bad, in and of themselve.. just that they can be used as a crutch of sorts, and have the ability of being harmful.

Can Christianity? Certainly.

Faith and Trust and Love, in God? Not if He exists.

johnny

quote:Originally posted by Raw_Power:

Yes, but how is that so? God is very spiritual, and he knows about Good and Evil. You are spiritual and worship God, yet you know of Good and Evil.

And I'm glad a Christian finally agrees with me that they were kicked out to keep them from eating from the tree of life, and not as a punishment for eating from the tree of good and evil. It was really getting quite annoying that so many disagreed with me, even though it was right there in the Bible. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

xtreem didn't say anything I didn't already say. Banishment from the garden was punishment. The punishment included being prevented from eating from the Tree of Life anymore.

Although I wasn't incorrect, and I explained it numerous times, the real issue you should have is with hyper-focusing on something so ridiculously insignificant about this text. Here we are reading about the permanent fall of mankind, and all you can think about is how God's punishment was truly enacted upon Adam and Eve.

quote:It also annoys me how they disagree on the free will thing. If he knows in advanced 100% that it is going to happen, then it is the only thing that’ll happen and there are no other options, therefore proving that there is something that keeps man from having freewill. It’s more logical than what DS was saying.

As I already stated, you have failed to prove that KNOWING = FORCING.

No matter what you choose God knows, because He is omniscient. If He forced you to do ANYTHING, you wouldn't possess free will. God created us with free will, therefore He forces you to do nothing.

You make a giant logical leap when you claim that knowledge equals control. You have not said anything remotely convincing to support that conclusion. Sorry.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 11-05-2006).]

I didn't say that his knowledge was controlling us, I was saying that him knowing what we are going to do beforehand implies that there is something that is preventing us from choosing differently. It's perfectly logical, you just don't like it because it contradicts your little book.

He knows what we are going to do before we do it, therefore it cannot be changed, therefore we only have the illusion of choice.

And once again, they were kicked out to keep them from eating from the tree of life, nothing says it was a punishment for eating from the tree of good and evil.

[This message has been edited by Raw_Power (edited 11-05-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

what's up with those annoying embedded bolding tags?



I thought maybe it was a result of using notepad in the other thread, but this time i just used Totse reply box.

If the bolding in the last post makes it difficult to understand, let me know and i'll edit... else it stays as is.

johnny

It just means there is a bold tag that was never closed.

Look for [b <---- should be [ b ] (I put spaces in there so it wouldn't become a tag).

quote:Originally posted by 4Sight:

Well Digital, I must commend you for finally responding. I look forward to UV's response.

Thanks. I do, too.

Round 4.

quote:Originally posted by Aseren:

Round 4.

I wanted to be the first to post on page four. http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

Jerk.

quote:Originally posted by Raw_Power:

I didn't say that his knowledge was controlling us,

I didn't say you did. Read what I said again, please.

quote:I was saying that him knowing what we are going to do beforehand implies that there is something that is preventing us from choosing differently.

I don't see how you could arrive at this conclusion, and I have said that you have not successfully proven this assertion.

Knowing my kid is going to fall off her bike while she's learning to ride doesn't mean I pushed her off.

quote:It's perfectly logical, you just don't like it because it contradicts your little book.

Uh, no. It's perfectly illogical, because you just make up whatever is in the middle of KNOWING and FORCING.

It's really quite simple. God knows how many times you will eat today. He doesn't force you to eat that many times, He just knows how many times. Because He is not restricted by space and time, He is everywhere, at all times. This is what creates His omniscient and omnipresent qualities. It's not really that difficult of a concept.

quote:He knows what we are going to do before we do it, therefore it cannot be changed, therefore we only have the illusion of choice.

You're just not taking this that one extra step necessary to complete the thought.

It doesn't MATTER what we choose. He knows because He is everywhere, at all times. Past, present, future. The nature of His existence (omniscient + omnipresent) doesn't = predestination, and you have failed to explain how it does.

If you want to eat Taco Bell tonight, but decide to have Burger King at the last minute instead, did God force you to go to Burger King ? No. It's a preposterous conclusion to arrive at, because there is no logical reason to think so.

You have the freedom to do whatever you want. God's nature, omniscient + omnipotent, simply creates a situation wherein nothing you will CHOOSE to do with your life will surprise Him.

quote:And once again, they were kicked out to keep them from eating from the tree of life, nothing says it was a punishment for eating from the tree of good and evil.

Genesis 2:8 - Adonai, God, planted a garden toward the east, in 'Eden, and there he put the person whom he had formed. 9 Out of the ground Adonai, God, caused to grow every tree pleasing in appearance and good for food, including the Tree of Life in the middle of the garden and the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

Genesis 2:15 - Adonai, God, took the person and put him in the garden of 'Eden to cultivate and care for it.

Genesis 3:6 - When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it had a pleasing appearance and that the tree was desirable for making one wise, she took some of its fruit and ate. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her; and he ate.

Genesis 3:17 - To Adam he said, "Because you listened to what your wife said and ate from the tree about which I gave you the order, 'You are not to eat from it,' the ground is cursed on your account; you will work hard to eat from it as long as you live.

Obviously, the ground in the garden had not previously been difficult to get food from. God had made it easy for them to eat. Because of their sin, God removed that privilege.

Genesis 3:18 - "It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat field plants."

Prior to sinning, Adam and Eve ate from the trees in the garden. They did not eat field plants.

Genesis 3:23 - therefore Adonai, God, sent him out of the garden of 'Eden to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.

This is the final explanation of why Adam and Eve were expelled. They were not to benefit from the ease of cultivating food in 'Eden. God ALSO said that He wanted to prevent Adam from eating of the Tree of Life. These two proclamations were both punishments delivered by God.

quote:It's really quite simple. God knows how many times you will eat today. He doesn't force you to eat that many times, He just knows how many times. Because He is not restricted by space and time, He is everywhere, at all times. This is what creates His omniscient and omnipresent qualities. It's not really that difficult of a concept.

Ah yes, that old argument. I forgot how fucking speculative Christianity is.

quote:Originally posted by Raw_Power:

I wanted to be the first to post on page four. http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

Jerk.

This may seem n00bish, but how do you guys know when a new page is about to be formed ?

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

This may seem n00bish, but how do you guys know when a new page is about to be formed ?

Each page has, I think, 49 posts.

[This message has been edited by Raw_Power (edited 11-06-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Raw_Power:

Ah yes, that old argument. I forgot how fucking speculative Christianity is.

What's the matter ? Can't refute such simple logic ?

Over-complicating things all while not providing a complete explanation of your theory doesn't make for a good argument on predestination.

quote:Originally posted by Raw_Power:

Each page has, I think, 49 posts.

But the posts aren't counted, so...how do you know when the page has reached 49 ? Tell me you don't sit there counting... http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

But the posts aren't counted, so...how do you know when the page has reached 49 ? Tell me you don't sit there counting... http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

The posts are counted... you can see how many replies there have been before clicking on a thread.

[This message has been edited by Raw_Power (edited 11-06-2006).]

Aha...that. Thanks. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)