this year during the winter I am planning on doing ski club at my school, problem is im supposed to take catholic comfirmation courses on the same nights that the ski club goes to the slopes. So I was wonderin if anyone knew any alternate ways to get confirmed or anything else I can do.

I did it privately with a seminarian. You could probably set something like that up.

Do you really want to be confirmed? I was forced into it, and its the biggest regret i have.

Ever...thought...about other religions? Maybe becoming a Catholic isn't the best choice religiously? Perhaps there is something better out there? Something more true to God? Something that doesn't Blasphemy Against God with claims that the All Powerful has a Begotten Son and is One with 3 parts who is a Father a Son and a Holy Ghost?

dude i imagine your parents will make you do the confirmation thing. ski club might have to wait. you can try to argue, but your parents social status is at stake. you prolly are supposed to look like a good catholic family. on the other hand, if you have more open-minded parents, maybe you can work em a little. i guess it just depends.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

Ever...thought...about other religions? Maybe becoming a Catholic isn't the best choice religiously? Perhaps there is something better out there? Something more true to God? Something that doesn't Blasphemy Against God with claims that the All Powerful has a Begotten Son and is One with 3 parts who is a Father a Son and a Holy Ghost?

If you aren't a Catholic you're a heathen.

FACT!

Honestly, why do you do this in every thread? I could understand if he had doubts or was questioning Catholicism, but he's just asking for confirmation advice. Instead of trying to inundate him with your religious prapaganda, why don't you just keep quiet?

quote:Originally posted by Arson-Daily:

this year during the winter I am planning on doing ski club at my school, problem is im supposed to take catholic comfirmation courses on the same nights that the ski club goes to the slopes. So I was wonderin if anyone knew any alternate ways to get confirmed or anything else I can do.

Say "Atheists don't do confirmation, atheists ski" and give them the middle finger. I'm sure they'll let you go then.

*giggles*

In all seriousness, I doubt they'll let you go skiing.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

If you aren't a Catholic you're a heathen.

FACT!

Honestly, why do you do this in every thread? I could understand if he had doubts or was questioning Catholicism, but he's just asking for confirmation advice. Instead of trying to inundate him with your religious prapaganda, why don't you just keep quiet?

Why would you want to let him go too far in the wrong direction? Let's see if he has a chance to choose the True Singular God over the Blasphemous concept of God promoted by Catholicism.

hea·then ( P ) Pronunciation Key (hthn)

n. pl. hea·thens or heathen

One who adheres to the religion of a people or nation that does not acknowledge the God of Judaism, Christianity, or Islam.

Such persons considered as a group; the unconverted.

One who is regarded as irreligious, uncivilized, or unenlightened.

Such persons considered as a group.

Fact? Am I a Heathen? Or are you a Blasphemer

blas·phe·my ( P ) Pronunciation Key (blsf-m)

n. pl. blas·phe·mies

A contemptuous or profane act, utterance, or writing concerning God or a sacred entity.

tr.v. pro·faned, pro·fan·ing, pro·fanes

To treat with irreverence: profane the name of God.

To put to an improper, unworthy, or degrading use; abuse.

_______

To say God the all powerful has a SON is to utter an transgression and blasphemy.

trans·gres·sion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (trns-grshn, trnz-)

n.

Exceeding due bounds or limits.

God is One, Singular.

one ( P ) Pronunciation Key (wn)

adj.

Being a single entity, unit, object, or living being.

Characterized by unity; undivided.

Not a Triune.

tri·une ( P ) Pronunciation Key (tryn)

adj.

Being three in one. Used especially of the Christian Trinity.

1. I am a believer in the One True God, the Only God, The God that made us Both.

2. You do utter a blasphemy against God and transgress when you say God the all mighty, who is not a man, has a Son, that a Man who was God's Messenger IS God, and that God is One with 3 parts. God's Number is 1, God is innumerable otherwise because the parts and aspects within God are Infinite.

in·fi·nite ( P ) Pronunciation Key (nf-nt)

adj.

Having no boundaries or limits.

Immeasurably great or large; boundless: infinite patience; a discovery of infinite importance.

Mathematics.

Existing beyond or being greater than any arbitrarily large value.

Unlimited in spatial extent: a line of infinite length.

Of or relating to a set capable of being put into one-to-one correspondence with a proper subset of itself.

I want this young man to consider what he is uttering, to cease and desist and search and find the True One God. To leave the false idols of Catholicism and all of its BLASPHEMIES AND TRANSGRESSIONS AGAINST GOD AS WHAT THEY UTTER IS SIN.

sin1 ( P ) Pronunciation Key (sn)

n.

A transgression of a religious or moral law, especially when deliberate.

Theology.

Deliberate disobedience to the known will of God.

A condition of estrangement from God resulting from such disobedience.

Something regarded as being shameful, deplorable, or utterly wrong.

So now you have a choice.

Follow My Message: There is One God, No Divisions, All Encompassing, All Powerful, Infinite who you must worship in submission and ask forgiveness from in order to be rewarded for your good deeds.

or

Follow the Path to Hell: By uttering Blasphemy and Transgression in relation to the One God by stating he is a Triune, he is a Father, and he is the begotten Son of himself you are only burning yourself as what you are saying is a Lie, an Untruth for God is One, Not a Father, Not a Son, Not a Ghost, But One God, Ruler of Everything, All Powerful who is not a Man, is far beyond having a Son or children. You and Jesus are both Creations of God, Not Children, for God is not a Man, nor is God your Father.

A Warning: Cease and Desist in Uttering and Following Blasphemy in relation to God, Follow the Straight Path, I am not a Heathen nor am I a disbeliever or an Idolator.

i·dol ( P ) Pronunciation Key (dl)

n.

An image used as an object of worship.

A false god.

One that is adored, often blindly or excessively.

Something visible but without substance.

i·dol·a·ter or i·dol·a·tor ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-dl-tr)

n.

One who worships idols.

One who blindly or excessively admires or adores another.

Jesus was the Messenger of God, but by many he has been turned into an IDOL to which people dedicate worship, yet another in a long line of blasphemies, so cease and desist. All Worship is Due to God, God has no Image, nor is he in the Image of Man, but within God are all Images, God is in the Image of Nothing if you were to strip all that is within God the Infinite.

Please respond in full.

quote:Why would you want to let him go too far in the wrong direction? Let's see if he has a chance to choose the True Singular God over the Blasphemous concept of God promoted by Catholicism.

Catholics believe in a singular God, unless you have a bastardized concept of what the trinity is.

To not believe in Catholicism is to be a heathen who shalt be cast into the fiery pits of Hell. Therefore, you ARE a heathen.

Don't take confirmation. there will always be time to do things like confirmation. go skiing. if your parents want you to take confirmation talk to them about it.

Wow, I don't think really one person helped him.

He isn't blowing off confirmation for a ski trip, just confirmation class. It shouldn't be that big of a deal if you tell them you had prior commitments and couldn't go, that goes for the class, and/or ski club.

It really just depends on which you want to do first. You can take confirmation at a later date, or privately. Or you can hold off on the ski trip. I don't think it matters in the end, and it's upto you.

In the very first post I gave him an alternative, everybody else in here just wants him to share their own world beliefs, regardless of whether or not he believes in them or not. It's pretty sickening.

As far as I can see, if you're torn between skiing and confirmation, you shouldn't get confirmed.

If you were really committed and strong in your beliefs, there would be no question. If you're not certain, or you lack the inclination, you should probably do some more thinking before you confirm this faith you seem to be pretty apathetic about.

Jx

It's actually his classes, which are largely pointless(at least from my experiences with them). They're pretty much just about going over the basic tenets of Catholicism, and if you already know them, then the classes aren't all that important.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

Catholics believe in a singular God, unless you have a bastardized concept of what the trinity is.

To not believe in Catholicism is to be a heathen who shalt be cast into the fiery pits of Hell. Therefore, you ARE a heathen.

Explain your version, the non bastardized version, of the concept of the trinity please. I find the trinity is dividing the One God into 3 different aspects. The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit. The Father is God the Father Ruler of all, the Son is Jesus the Word of God and God on Earth, and the Holy Ghost is God's Power, that's the way I think of it, but what do you think of it as?

I believe that believing in Catholicism would get someone throne in the fiery pit that is Hell for they do IDOL WORSHIP, the Idol being Jesus, whom they Blasphemy in their claim that he is the SON of God, when God is not a man but far beyond their primitive ideas, God is nobodies father and God is nobodies son, God has no beginning or end, God is God.

The dictionary doesn't limit the definition of Heathen to Catholicism but I'm sure they were one of the primary and heavy users of the word originally.

If you know God, you'll know that God is not a man or in the image of man, does not have children, does not ask people to WORSHIP other than God, aspects of God, or IDOLS of God. Jesus the Messenger of God has been turned into an IDOL by Christians and Catholics especially.

So when you will be asked why you denied the One God and instead without thinking followed blasphemous claims that God has a Son and can be divided into 3 parts, I don't know what your answer will be...Perhaps: "My Parents did it, I followed them" So follow them, STRAIGHT INTO THE FIRE! Or Follow ME and I will tell you the way to avoid it, and it is not through believing a LIE that a Man can carry your sins.

Things you should remember:

1. You know that your God is One God and should not be divided into 3 portions or even mentioned as a triune, but one Singular.

2. You know that Jesus was a man who worshipped God, not himself, and he was a messenger of God, Nor was Jesus, in your stories, speaking and praying to himself or asking himself for things but rather asking the ONE GOD. Jesus was the SERVANT of GOD and the SERVANT of MAN, not the Son of God or the Son of Man, the word in Greek is the same word, Pais, means Son or Servant.

3.You know that no Being within God/Reality can bear the burden of another, but God can forgive you in an instant if you ask, no need for blood sacrifice or deaths, the idea originally comes from the Hebrew concept of SCAPEGOAT in which a village leader would sacrifice a goat to forgive the sins of the entire tribe or village. It doesn't work that way though, as each individual has a responsibility to God and to themselves and the only way to be forgiven is to ask GOD directly, not Sons, not Portions, Not Triunes but the One God.

The classes aren't even necessary. Its basically like you are in church. The Father reads a passage and interperets it for you the "Catholic" way. But if you want to get married in a Catholic Church someday, you need to go through this. Or atleast that's how I was sold into it.

I'm assuming you already had First Communion/Reconciliation and Baptism... you only have one more left to go. Why not just finish it now so it wont haunt you later. Chances are your future significant other will bitch about having the perfect church to get married in. And it will so happen that the perfect church wants the couple to have all three holy sacraments.

Unless you can find a Protestant church as beautiful as a Catholic one, I say just get it over with. Yeah, thats right. Protestants suck at building churches!! Don't you know God wants church to be all extravagent and shit? Just like how God wants us to kill murderers on deathrow yet never prevent them from becoming one by aborting their asses out of their 12 year old crack whore mothers.

[This message has been edited by postdiluvium (edited 08-11-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

Explain your version, the non bastardized version, of the concept of the trinity please. I find the trinity is dividing the One God into 3 different aspects. The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit. The Father is God the Father Ruler of all, the Son is Jesus the Word of God and God on Earth, and the Holy Ghost is God's Power, that's the way I think of it, but what do you think of it as?

I believe that believing in Catholicism would get someone throne in the fiery pit that is Hell for they do IDOL WORSHIP, the Idol being Jesus, whom they Blasphemy in their claim that he is the SON of God, when God is not a man but far beyond their primitive ideas, God is nobodies father and God is nobodies son, God has no beginning or end, God is God.

The dictionary doesn't limit the definition of Heathen to Catholicism but I'm sure they were one of the primary and heavy users of the word originally.

If you know God, you'll know that God is not a man or in the image of man, does not have children, does not ask people to WORSHIP other than God, aspects of God, or IDOLS of God. Jesus the Messenger of God has been turned into an IDOL by Christians and Catholics especially.

So when you will be asked why you denied the One God and instead without thinking followed blasphemous claims that God has a Son and can be divided into 3 parts, I don't know what your answer will be...Perhaps: "My Parents did it, I followed them" So follow them, STRAIGHT INTO THE FIRE! Or Follow ME and I will tell you the way to avoid it, and it is not through believing a LIE that a Man can carry your sins.

Things you should remember:

1. You know that your God is One God and should not be divided into 3 portions or even mentioned as a triune, but one Singular.

2. You know that Jesus was a man who worshipped God, not himself, and he was a messenger of God, Nor was Jesus, in your stories, speaking and praying to himself or asking himself for things but rather asking the ONE GOD. Jesus was the SERVANT of GOD and the SERVANT of MAN, not the Son of God or the Son of Man, the word in Greek is the same word, Pais, means Son or Servant.

3.You know that no Being within God/Reality can bear the burden of another, but God can forgive you in an instant if you ask, no need for blood sacrifice or deaths, the idea originally comes from the Hebrew concept of SCAPEGOAT in which a village leader would sacrifice a goat to forgive the sins of the entire tribe or village. It doesn't work that way though, as each individual has a responsibility to God and to themselves and the only way to be forgiven is to ask GOD directly, not Sons, not Portions, Not Triunes but the One God.

I'm not even going to bother, because I doubt you'd change your opinion, particularly since you appear to have no knowledge of Catholic dogma.

postdiluvium, you're damn right about the Churches too. When will protestants learn to build a decent church? Seriously, it's like all their designs are straight out of the 1960's.

But yeah, ornate churches for the win!

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

I'm not even going to bother, because I doubt you'd change your opinion, particularly since you appear to have no knowledge of Catholic dogma.

Please bother and give me the knowledge of Catholic dogma for I may change my opinion, and it would be wrong of you, if you have the knowledge, to keep it from me.

Look up the Catholic encyclopedia, trinity for a start. You can branch out from there.

But honestly, I'm not going to bother debating with someone who enters the discussion with strong, biased opinions that aren't going to change. It serves me no purpose. I gain nothing out of it. You would get something, but what would I get?

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

Look up the Catholic encyclopedia, trinity for a start. You can branch out from there.

But honestly, I'm not going to bother debating with someone who enters the discussion with strong, biased opinions that aren't going to change. It serves me no purpose. I gain nothing out of it. You would get something, but what would I get?

Well either way we both have a large potential of winning, if you come to my side then you'll be a winner in your eyes and my eyes, not a loser, and if I come to your side, then I will be a winner in your eyes and my eyes.

If we debate, one of us winning (that means making the other see it our way) means that the "loser" would in fact be a winner too!

If you follow me, you get to learn about the right religion and the straight path to paradise, if I follow you I get saved and get to heaven!

We'll both get good points! I'll get good points for trying to spread my message, and you'll get good points for trying to spread your message! To me, your good points will be bad points until you follow me though, but that doesn't matter!

In other words, it is a win win situation, you get to teach everyone, including me, about Catholicism, I get to teach everyone, including you about my ideas and beliefs and we will put your religion and my religion to the test and punch it, and push it, and see what comes out of it!

We'll be in the process of producing something wonderful, you and me pal, whadiya say? Let's dance!

Come on now, you don't really expect me to believe that you'll all of a sudden convert to whatever my beliefs are, do you?

Again, I'm not going to debate with someone about Catholicism who already views Catholicism as blasphemous. You have your opinion, and I sincerely doubt there's anything I could do to change it(I wouldn't even want to change it if I could).

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

Come on now, you don't really expect me to believe that you'll all of a sudden convert to whatever my beliefs are, do you?

Again, I'm not going to debate with someone about Catholicism who already views Catholicism as blasphemous. You have your opinion, and I sincerely doubt there's anything I could do to change it(I wouldn't even want to change it if I could).

At least bring me to a point where I don't believe Catholicism is Blasphemous. Give me some understanding why dontcha!

Hey, Abe - once again, intersting viewpoint, but misguided nonetheless(!) I've posted in the Rosary thread again, but I've kind of lost track where we were up to - looking forwards to your next post!

To the dude who started this thread - Confirmation is INFINITELY more important than going skiing - in my opinion you ought to find ways around going skiing, rather than the other way around. That being said, however, if you feel that going skiing is more important than being confirmed, maybe now is not the right time for you to approach something as serious as this. Whenever entering into any religious thing like this, you need to be sure that you are doing it sincerely and for the right reasons. These aren't empty ceremonies - they mean something, confirmation is symbolic of a renewal of your baptism, an act, made in free will, of your renewing your devotion to God and to His Holy Faith. My advice to you, is to pray. Pray a great deal, for guidance, for Faith, and for Truth - but DON'T take things like this lightly, it makes a mockery of the whole Sacrament. Either do it, because you WANT to, or wait until you truly know within yourself, in the very depths of your being, when you feel a call echoing through your very soul, that this is The Way, and the Truth and The Life - and you WANT, you NEED, you CRAVE to be a part of it - and THEN do it.

I hope this helps you in some way, I'm sorry if I come accross a bit strong - I get a little heavy when it comes to the Faith!

God BLess,

Tri.

quote:Originally posted by trichocereus pachanoi:



To the dude who started this thread - Confirmation is INFINITELY more important than going skiing - in my opinion you ought to find ways around going skiing, rather than the other way around. That being said, however, if you feel that going skiing is more important than being confirmed, maybe now is not the right time for you to approach something as serious as this. Whenever entering into any religious thing like this, you need to be sure that you are doing it sincerely and for the right reasons. These aren't empty ceremonies - they mean something, confirmation is symbolic of a renewal of your baptism, an act, made in free will, of your renewing your devotion to God and to His Holy Faith. My advice to you, is to pray. Pray a great deal, for guidance, for Faith, and for Truth - but DON'T take things like this lightly, it makes a mockery of the whole Sacrament. Either do it, because you WANT to, or wait until you truly know within yourself, in the very depths of your being, when you feel a call echoing through your very soul, that this is The Way, and the Truth and The Life - and you WANT, you NEED, you CRAVE to be a part of it - and THEN do it.

I hope this helps you in some way, I'm sorry if I come accross a bit strong - I get a little heavy when it comes to the Faith!

God BLess,

Tri.

I agree with Tri! Don't get confirmed until you want to get confirmed, when things like skiing are not on equal basis. In the meantime you should pray if you believe in such things, and if you don't believe in such things then why would you get confirmation? Furthermore if you have any interest in your religious life then study the other religions thoroughly, find the Truth for you, but don't go into Catholicism without the whole of your heart, or if you are not a religious person.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

At least bring me to a point where I don't believe Catholicism is Blasphemous. Give me some understanding why dontcha!

The Catholic encyclopedia can explain the nature of the trinity much better than I could ever dream of doing. Start there.

If you have any questions, then I'd be happy to answer them.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

Catholics believe in a singular God, unless you have a bastardized concept of what the trinity is.

To not believe in Catholicism is to be a heathen who shalt be cast into the fiery pits of Hell. Therefore, you ARE a heathen.

I think he is referring to Jesus being called the Son of God. Although it may be percieved as blasphemous now, it was a common thing to call religious figures back at the start of these religions. The angels themselves are called The Sons of God... Benei Elohim. I've never heard anyone say it was blasphemous to call angels that.

[This message has been edited by postdiluvium (edited 08-12-2006).]

Abrahim,

It is true you do need to research into the Catholic religion a little more until you can make conclusions as those you have made about it. But in your defense, it is only because you know as much about the religion as any common Catholic. Not much. You read a passage and hear a story about it. No history about religion is heard or why such a story is being told with such a passage.

Because when you start getting into the details, there are many questions that will arise that many do not know how to answer. Mainly because the information is pretty hard to find and people just dont have that kind of time to find such information. I usually find that Catholicism is so complex because it is a religion that was established and organized outside of the lands of the one who the religion is based upon. Most of it is atleast second hand accounts and never direct quotes.

postdiluvium

PS - *whispering* I think napoleon_complex has a thing for you. *wink wink*

Oh Abrahim shut the fuck up, the OP asked for a little advice, don't tear this thread to shreds, I wanted to find out alternatives so I could learn more about religion. Asshat, you already spouted your life-saving message in every other thread.

Dude, if you dont want to get confirmed, then just tell your parents. I think its almost against the religion to be confirmed unwillingly, as it defeats the entire purpose of confirmation. (least thats what I could have sworn that told me during my confirmation classes)

Cept for the fact I guess it was suppose to be for two years and I did it in one...dont ask.

I was born a catholic, but I do not beleive in ANY religion. Religion is used in rights to rule over you as people, to control your thoughts, and make it so you arent an independent. Although I beleive some aspects of the Muslim religions hit what mankind SHOULD be on the head.

Abrahim, you sound like a religious nut. I do not look down on religious people, but I find religious people to be mighty ignorant, and the will not see anything different, expecially if its a plight against god.

==========================

Ill apoligize the the original poster, i wouldve done my confirmation already if i was still going to church and stuff.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

The Catholic encyclopedia can explain the nature of the trinity much better than I could ever dream of doing. Start there.

If you have any questions, then I'd be happy to answer them.



I think you should read it too:

This is on the Son of God:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14142b.htm

This is on the Trinity:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm

In the son of God article it says "Testimony of Jesus Christ

(1) The Synoptics. The key to this is contained in His words, after the Resurrection: "I ascend to my Father and to your Father" (John 20:17). He always spoke of MY Father, never of OUR Father. He said to the disciples: "Thus then shall YOU pray: Our Father", etc. He everywhere draws the clearest possible distinction between the way in which God was His Father and in which He was the Father of all creatures. His expressions clearly prove that He claimed to be of the same nature with God; and His claims to Divine Sonship are contained very clearly in the Synoptic Gospels, though not as frequently as in St. John."

I don't at all see how that "clearly proves that he claimed to be of the same nature with God."

In the Trinity article it says "A. New Testament

The evidence from the Gospels culminates in the baptismal commission of Matthew 28:20. It is manifest from the narratives of the Evangelists that Christ only made the great truth known to the Twelve step by step. First He taught them to recognize in Himself the Eternal Son of God. When His ministry was drawing to a close, He promised that the Father would send another Divine Person, the Holy Spirit, in His place. Finally after His resurrection, He revealed the doctrine in explicit terms, bidding them "go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" (Matthew 28:18). The force of this passage is decisive. That "the Father" and "the Son" are distinct Persons follows from the terms themselves, which are mutually exclusive. The mention of the Holy Spirit in the same series, the names being connected one with the other by the conjunctions "and . . . and" is evidence that we have here a Third Person co-ordinate with the Father and the Son, and excludes altogether the supposition that the Apostles understood the Holy Spirit not as a distinct Person, but as God viewed in His action on creatures."

I don't see how it saying In the Name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit is a claim to it being singular.

Can I not say In the name of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Joseph? Does that somehow mean they are one? What?

Even Gabriel the Angel according to the Bible never claims that Jesus IS the son of God but that he shall be called the son of God which is indeed true.

"In 10:29, Christ expressly teaches His unity of essence with the Father: "That which my Father hath given me, is greater than all..."

"And the angel answering, said to her: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."

Not only was the Son of God a term bestowed upon others as Post mentioned, but Gabriel never claimed that God shall have a son, but that Mary shall of a son who shall be called the Son of God.

"Rationalist critics lay great stress upon the text: "The Father is greater than I" (14:28)."

Jesus was a man who worshipped God and fully comprehended that God is greater than him and that they are not the same person.

The Catholic Theory is Complex:

"In this Trinity of Persons the Son is begotten of the Father by an eternal generation, and the Holy Spirit proceeds by an eternal procession from the Father and the Son. Yet, notwithstanding this difference as to origin, the Persons are co-eternal and co-equal: all alike are uncreated and omnipotent. This, the Church teaches, is the revelation regarding God's nature which Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came upon earth to deliver to the world: and which she proposes to man as the foundation of her whole dogmatic system."

"IV. THE TRINITY AS A MYSTERY

The Vatican Council has explained the meaning to be attributed to the term mystery in theology. It lays down that a mystery is a truth which we are not merely incapable of discovering apart from Divine Revelation, but which, even when revealed, remains "hidden by the veil of faith and enveloped, so to speak, by a kind of darkness" (Const., "De fide. cath.", iv)."

That's right, it is indeed something covered in darkness.

You and I both agree that there is only One God, Eternal, Absolute.

You and I both agree that Jesus was giving mankind the Message of God.

You yourself seemed to imply not to take everything in the Bible literally.

How is it that Jesus is the Son of God literally? I mean a real literal son.

If you say he was not the Literal Son of God (as in the way a human Father has a son), then we are not in total disagreement.

I believe Jesus was indeed the Annointed One, the Messiah but not that his task was to forgive the sins of mankind, but to give the Message to the people and confirm what was before him.

I do not believe God is a man like being or that Jesus is the literal Son of God. Do you believe Jesus was the literal Son of god? Please explain how God has a literal Son.

"Testimony of Jesus Christ

(1) The Synoptics. The key to this is contained in His words, after the Resurrection: "I ascend to my Father and to your Father" (John 20:17). He always spoke of MY Father, never of OUR Father. He said to the disciples: "Thus then shall YOU pray: Our Father", etc. He everywhere draws the clearest possible distinction between the way in which God was His Father and in which He was the Father of all creatures. His expressions clearly prove that He claimed to be of the same nature with God; and His claims to Divine Sonship are contained very clearly in the Synoptic Gospels, though not as frequently as in St. John."

As everyone according to the Jews and Christians is the Metaphorical Child of God, tell me how they are the literal Child of God.

My argument is against the LITERAL INTERPRETATION OF THESE TURNS WHICH IMPLY UTTER BLASPHEMY.

Please read both articles and then tell me, and also post, and any other Catholics what you believe...

If you believe that God is the Literal Father of Humans, and the Literal Father of Jesus then we have a major conflict.

If you believe that God is the METAPHORICAL Father of humans, and the Metaphorical Father of Jesus, then we have much less of a conflict.

In the case of the latter my argument will be against misleading statements that do not do the greatness of the Lord justice.

In the case of the prior my argument will be against uttering total blasphemy for God is without any Literal Sons or Children, God being totally singular, Creator of everything, not Father, but LITERAL Originator, Creator, Manifestor.

So I need to know what you and post believe in order to continue also those articles are important to read to know what the Catholic Dictionary says and will assist you hopefully in explaining it to others if the need ever arises.

The way I look at it is simple. From a biblical and christian perspective, I'd definitely view Jesus as the son of God for one main reason(not even counting the scriptural evidence), and that reason is that he was divine. If you take the bible as being entirely true(not literally true, but true in its essence), then you'd HAVE to agree that Jesus was divine, no? Since Jesus was divine, he had to of had divine origins. This is where the whole scene with Gabriel and the culmination of Mary's immaculate conception comes into play. God intervened DIRECTLY with Mary's life to give her grace to make her without sin, because a sinful being should give birth to a sinless being.

I just look at it like if Jesus was divine, then he had to of came from divine parentage, i.e. God.

Do you argue against the biblical divinity of Jesus?

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

because a sinful being should give birth to a sinless being.

I dont get what you mean by that. According to Catholic Doctrine, Mary was sinless. She was born of the Immaculate Conception and was still a virgin at Jesus' conception.

I meant sinless being should give birth to a sinless being. I originally typed "a sinful being should not....", and when I changed it I forgot to change the sinful to sinless.

So are you stating that Jesus is literally from "Divine Parentage" or Metaphorically because he was one who did not sin, a chosen one of God, one of the righteous and good.

I deny that Jesus was divine because he was born a human. Only God is divine, everything else is God's creation. Jesus was righteous and good and did not sin, nor did Mary, but they were human beings, not Gods.

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They do blaspheme who say: "God is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.

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They do blaspheme who say: God is One of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One God. If they desist not from their word, verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.

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Why turn they not to God, and seek His forgiveness? For God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

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Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!

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And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods besides (alike to) God?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Though I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.

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"Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'worship God, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things.

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"If Thou dost punish them, they are Thy servant: If Thou dost forgive them, Thou art the Exalted in power, the Wise."

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God will say: "This is a day on which the truthful will profit from their truth: theirs are gardens, with rivers flowing beneath,- their eternal Home: Allah well-pleased with them, and they with Allah: That is the great salvation, (the fulfilment of all desires).

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To God doth belong the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth and whatsoever is therein, and He is Able to do all things.

Post, do you believe Jesus was the LITERAL son of God or the Metaphorical Son of God?

Napoleon are you saying that God is literally Jesus's Father, just as whoever your Father is, is literally your Father?

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

So are you stating that Jesus is literally from "Divine Parentage" or Metaphorically because he was one who did not sin, a chosen one of God, one of the righteous and good.

Post, do you believe Jesus was the LITERAL son of God or the Metaphorical Son of God?



Apparently Mary was born without her parents having sex. Her father went into the mountains or something praying for a child and suddenly her mother was pregnant. Until she was sent to Rabbis (?) to be raised, she supposedly never left her room. I think she never actually left her bed, as the story goes, and her feet never touched the floor.

I think the person who is now called Jesus was called The Son of God. Like the many people who claimed to be Messianic of those days. Like angels are called Sons of Gods and any other religious figure. I personally think this person who is now called Jesus did once exist, but was a real man who just saw a need for religious reform. Not someone who transcended phyiscal reality, but a hero to some who's story was over exaggerated as passed mouth to mouth.

He saw the polarity that existed in the mainstream Jewish religions. Essennees (sp?) to Pharisee and called for the more realistic midde ground. Something that made it so religion bows to a man's needs rather than a man bowing down to the religion's needs.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

So are you stating that Jesus is literally from "Divine Parentage" or Metaphorically because he was one who did not sin, a chosen one of God, one of the righteous and good.

I deny that Jesus was divine because he was born a human. Only God is divine, everything else is God's creation. Jesus was righteous and good and did not sin, nor did Mary, but they were human beings, not Gods.

Catholicism holds that Jesus was divine and that he was the son of God. They do not believe that God inseminated Mary, but rather, that God put Jesus in Mary.

How can you deny the divinity of Jesus when you consider all the miracles that he performed and the fact that he both rose from the dead AND ascended directly into heaven?



quote:Napoleon are you saying that God is literally Jesus's Father, just as whoever your Father is, is literally your Father?

In a sense, yes? I'm saying that Catholics believe that God is the father of Jesus. However, Jesus also has Joseph as his father. Since Jesus has both human and divine characteristics, he has both a temporal and a metaphysical father.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

In a sense, yes? I'm saying that Catholics believe that God is the father of Jesus. However, Jesus also has Joseph as his father. Since Jesus has both human and divine characteristics, he has both a temporal and a metaphysical father.

I believe that Jesus had absolutely no father but only a Mother, who was his literal Mother, Mary.

I believe Jesus was created by God, just like how Adam was created by God, is Adam the son of God? Adam is rather, our ancestor, we are the Children of Adam.

God has no literal Children and no literal Parents, God has always existed, one title that can be rightfully bestowed on God is Creator, or Originator, but God is no one's LITERAL Father, and no one's LITERAL son, do we agree on this point?

I believe all the Miracles performed by Jesus were only performed by the help of God and otherwise could not be done, thus qualifying them as Miracles. Who made a way for Moses? God. By who's leave did Jesus perform Miracles? God.

No being is Divine Save the One God. I don't believe that Jesus was ever crucified but that it was an illusion, they thought they had killed him while he was not even there.

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And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Messenger of God - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.

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But God took him up unto Himself. God was ever Mighty, Wise.

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And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;-

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They say: "God hath begotten a son!" - Glory be to Him! He is self-sufficient! His are all things in the heavens and on earth! No warrant have ye for this! say ye about God what ye know not?

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Say: "Those who invent a lie against God will not be sucessful."

______

Now I will relate to you a revelation about Mary and Jesus.

In the name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful.

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Kaf Ha Ya Ain Suad.

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a recital of the Mercy of thy Lord to His servant Zachariah.

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When he called upon his Lord in a low voice,

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Saying: My Lord! Lo! the bones of me wax feeble and my head is shining with grey hair, and I have never been unblest in prayer to Thee, my Lord.

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Lo! I fear my kinsfolk after me, since my wife is barren. Oh, give me from Thy presence a successor

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Who shall inherit of me and inherit (also) of the house of Jacob. And make him, my Lord, acceptable (unto Thee).

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"O Zachariah! Lo! We bring thee tidings of a son whose name is John; we have given the same name to none before.



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He said: O my Lord! when shall I have a son, and my wife is barren, and I myself have reached indeed the extreme degree of old age?

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He said: "So thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: I did indeed created thee before, when thou hadst been nothing!'"

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He said: My Lord! Appoint for me some token. He said: Thy token is that thou, with no bodily defect, shalt not speak unto mankind three nights.

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Then he came forth unto his people from the sanctuary, and signified to them: Glorify your Lord at break of day and fall of night.

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O John! Hold fast the Scripture. And we gave him wisdom when a child,

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And compassion from Our presence, and purity; and he was devout,

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And kind to his parents, and he was not arrogant or rebellious.

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Peace on him the day he was born, the day that he dies, and the day that he will be raised up to life!

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And make mention of Mary in the Scripture, when she had withdrawn from her people to a chamber looking East,

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And had chosen seclusion from them. Then We sent unto her Our Spirit and it assumed for her the likeness of a perfect man.

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She said: I seek refuge in the Beneficent One from thee, if thou art Allah-fearing.

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He said: I am only a messenger of your Lord: That I will give you a pure boy.

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She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?"

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He said: Even so; your Lord says: It is easy to Me: and that We may make him a sign to men and a mercy from Us, and it is a matter which has been decreed.

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So she conceived him, and she retired with him to a remote place.

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And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm-tree: She cried (in her anguish): "Ah! would that I had died before this! would that I had been a thing forgotten and out of sight!"

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Then (the child) called out to her from beneath her: Grieve not, surely your Lord has made a stream to flow beneath you;

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And shake the trunk of the palm-tree toward thee, thou wilt cause ripe dates to fall upon thee.

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So eat and drink and be consoled. And if thou meetest any mortal, say: Lo! I have vowed a fast unto the Beneficent, and may not speak this day to any mortal.

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Then she brought him to her own folk, carrying him. They said: O Mary! Thou hast come with an amazing thing.

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"O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!"

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But she pointed to the babe. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?"

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He said: "I am indeed a servant of God: He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet;

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"And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live;

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And dutiful toward her who bore me, and hath not made me arrogant, unblest.

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"So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life"!

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was Jesus, son of Mary: (this is) a statement of the truth concerning which they doubt.

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It is not befitting to God that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.

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And surely Allah is my Lord and your Lord, therefore serve Him; this is the right path.

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But the sects differ among themselves: and woe to the unbelievers because of the Judgment of a Momentous Day!

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How plainly will they see and hear, the Day that they will appear before Us! but the unjust today are in error manifest!

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And warn them of the day of intense regret, when the matter shall have been decided; and they are in negligence and they do not believe.

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It is We Who will inherit the earth, and all beings thereon: to Us will they all be returned.

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O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning God save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of God, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in God and His messengers, and say not "Trinity" - Desist, it is better for you; God is only one God; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and God is sufficient for a Protector.

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The Messiah does by no means disdain that he should be a servant of God, nor do the angels who are near to Him, and whoever disdains His service and is proud, He will gather them all together to Himself.

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But to those who believe and do deeds of righteousness, He will give their rewards,- and more, out of His bounty: But those who are disdainful and arrogant, He will punish with a grievous penalty; Nor will they find, besides God, any to protect or help them.

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And when the son of Mary is quoted as an example, behold! the folk raise a clamour,

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And they say, "Are our gods best, or he?" This they set forth to thee, only by way of disputation: yea, they are a contentious people.

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He was no more than a servant: We granted Our favour to him, and We made him an example to the Children of Israel.

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And had We willed We could have set among you angels to be viceroys in the earth.

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And lo! verily there is knowledge of the Hour. So doubt ye not concerning it, but follow Me. This is the right path.

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And let not Satan turn you aside. Lo! he is an open enemy for you.

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When Jesus came with Clear Signs, he said: "Now have I come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the on which ye dispute: therefore fear God and obey me.

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"For Allah, He is my Lord and your Lord: so worship Him: this is a Straight Way."

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But sects from among themselves fell into disagreement: then woe to the wrong-doers, from the Penalty of a Grievous Day!

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In blasphemy indeed are those that say that God is Christ the son of Mary. Say: "Who then hath the least power against God, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every - one that is on the earth? For to God belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For God hath power over all things."

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And the Jews and the Christians say: We are the sons of God and His beloved ones. Say: Why does He then chastise you for your faults? Nay, you are mortals from among those whom He has created, He forgives whom He pleases and chastises whom He pleases; and God's is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth and what is between them, and to Him is the eventual coming.

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O People of the Scripture! Now hath Our messenger come unto you to make things plain unto you after an interval of the messengers, lest ye should say: There came not unto us a messenger nor any warner. Now hath a messenger and a warner come unto you. God is Able to do all things.

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They surely disbelieve who say: God is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah said: O Children of Israel, worship God, my Lord and your Lord. Whoever ascribeth partners unto Godh, for him God hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers.

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One day will Allah gather the messengers together, and ask: "What was the response ye received?" They will say: "We have no knowledge: it is Thou Who knowest in full all that is hidden."

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Then will God say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'

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"And behold! I inspired the disciples to have faith in Me and Mine Messenger: they said, 'We have faith, and do thou bear witness that we bow to Allah as Muslims'".

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Behold! the disciples, said: "O Jesus the son of Mary! can thy Lord send down to us a table set from heaven?" Said Jesus: "Fear God, if ye have faith."

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Jesus, son of Mary, said: O God, Our Lord! Send down for us a table spread with food from heaven, that it may be a feast for us, for the first of us and for the last of us, and a sign from Thee. Give us sustenance, for Thou art the Best of Sustainers.

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God said: "I will send it down unto you: But if any of you after that resisteth faith, I will punish him with a penalty such as I have not inflicted on any one among all the nations."

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And when God saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother as Gods beside God? he saith: Glory Be To Thee! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then Thou knewest it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy Mind. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower of Things Hidden?

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I spake unto them only that which Thou commandedst me: Worship God, my Lord and your Lord. I was a witness of them while I dwelt among them, and when Thou tookest me Thou wast the Watcher over them. Thou art Witness over all things.

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If Thou shouldst chastise them, then surely they are Thy servants; and if Thou shouldst forgive them, then surely Thou art the Mighty, the Wise.

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God will say: "This is a day on which the truthful will profit from their truth: theirs are gardens, with rivers flowing beneath,- their eternal Home: God well-pleased with them, and they with God: That is the great salvation.

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To God doth belong the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is therein, and it is He Who hath power over all things.

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Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their food. See how God makes His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!

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Say: Do you serve besides God that which does not control for you any harm, or any profit? And God-- He is the Hearing, the Knowing.

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Say: O People of the Scripture! Stress not in your religion other than the truth, and follow not the vain desires of folk who erred of old and led many astray, and erred from the right path.

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Curses were pronounced on those among the Children of Israel who rejected Faith, by the tongue of David and of Jesus the son of Mary: because they disobeyed and persisted in excesses.

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I hope you managed to read all of that, it was in relation to Jesus Primarilly. Please, if you didn't read it properly I hope you do take the time to read it all carefully.

So you believe that Jesus, the Literal Son of Mary, was the Literal Son of God or the Metaphorical Son of God? If you say that Jesus is the Literal Son of God, how can it be so? We both know God is not a man or a being that has literal sons, but rather that God is all Powerful, Ruler and Creator of Everything.

Post:

If you managed to read all the quotes, do you agree or disagree? It seems you do not believe that Jesus is the Literal Son of God while remaining Catholic, is this true? You seem to believe that Jesus was a human reformer and not a divine being or God. If that is true then your belief is much closer to mine.

I believe that Jesus was the literal son of Mary, both of them were excellent humans free of sin and evil who were, by the leave of God, allowed to partake in Miracles. God is not something that has literal children, but rather, is the Creator of All, Ruler of All, God of All, including Jesus.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

Post:

If you managed to read all the quotes, do you agree or disagree? It seems you do not believe that Jesus is the Literal Son of God while remaining Catholic, is this true? You seem to believe that Jesus was a human reformer and not a divine being or God. If that is true then your belief is much closer to mine.

I believe that Jesus was the literal son of Mary, both of them were excellent humans free of sin and evil who were, by the leave of God, allowed to partake in Miracles. God is not something that has literal children, but rather, is the Creator of All, Ruler of All, God of All, including Jesus.

Well, I'm just Catholic by holy sacraments. Spiritually, I am no Catholic. Spiritually, I'd say I'm more Jewish or whatever existed between the time of Jesus dying and the creation of the Catholic church. To tell you the truth, I think we've all been hoodwinked in terms of religion. Except for the Buddhists, if Buddhism is still classified as a religion.

quote:Originally posted by postdiluvium:

Well, I'm just Catholic by holy sacraments. Spiritually, I am no Catholic. Spiritually, I'd say I'm more Jewish or whatever existed between the time of Jesus dying and the creation of the Catholic church. To tell you the truth, I think we've all been hoodwinked in terms of religion. Except for the Buddhists, if Buddhism is still classified as a religion.

So what do you believe in?

Do you believe in:

God? What is God?

Ressurection/Judgement Day? What is it?

Paradise/Punishment? What is it?

Prophets/Messengers? Who are they?

Divine Inspiration? How?

The Torah? What is it?

The New Testament? What is it?

The Qur'an? What is it?

Beyond those questions feel free to clearify what it is you believe and why.

In answer to my own questions:

God? What is God?

God is the All Encompassing Ultimate Reality in which this reality and this universe exists within, is made of, entirely dependant on. God is infinite and in which all possibilities, universes, realities exist, innumerable. God is all powerful in the sense that nothing can happen without God, God is what we utilize in every sense in every way, every moment, in everything. God is everywhere, absolute, God is One, essentially God is all there is and ever was and ever will be, there is only God. Do you agree? If not why?

Ressurection/Judgement Day? What is it?

The Earth Quake, The Trumpet is Blown.

I believe that when a person dies they are completely dead, their life force and energy being converted into the mass. For the dead person it is like a dreamless sleep, until in a moment they wake up, feeling as though they had only fallen asleep for a short while. The day in which they are risen is the ressurection when the truth will be made manifest and the devotees of the One God will be sorted from the transgressors, evil doers. Do you believe in such a day? If not, why?

Paradise/Punishment? What is it?

I believe that after the judgement is completeled and everyone is sorted according to how they spent their lives, the righteous and good will inherit the Earth, a beautiful, more spacious Earth, in which no harm or discomfort can come to them while the evil doer's who spent a life doing wrong will be in the fire, a place of extremes in discomfort, a literal location, perhaps somewhere on or in the Earth after Judgement Day.

Prophets/Messengers? Who are they?

I believe the Prophets and Messengers were those who were inspired to spread the message of the One True God. Some of them brought books, others spoke to the people primarilly but the message was always the same: Worship and Devotion to the One God.

Divine Inspiration? How?

I believe that Divine Inspiration did literally occur in history but not in the sense that a person simply gets an idea, the Qur'an seems to make in clear that in the case of Muhammed he was almost literally posessed by the Messenger (Angel) in his recitation of the Qur'an in the following:

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Move not thy tongue concerning the (Qur'an) to make haste therewith.

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It is for Us to collect it and to recite it:

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But when We have promulgated it, follow thou its recital

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Nay more, it is for Us to explain it

The Torah? What is it?

The Torah or Taurath is the Book of God, one in the series of 5, that was bestowed upon the Prophet Moses or Musa to give to the tribe known as the Children of Israel or B'nei Israel. Soon after it was made manifest and after the death of Moses, it was disputed, corrupted, additions were made, subtractions until a large portion of the message was lost. Later it was re inscribed until it was even further corrupted. Jesus or Isa the literal son of Mary or Marium then came to the Children of Israel to correct them in what they disputed and confirm the Taurath with the revelation bestowed upon him called the Injeel.

The New Testament? What is it?

The New Testament seems to be largely a collection of stories about Jesus the Son of Mary collected after his death.

The Qur'an? What is it?

The Qur'an is God's last communication through revelation to humankind before Judgement Day and the 5th book in the series of 5 (Scrolls of Ibrahim, Zabur, Taurath, Injeel, being those before it.).

The Qur'an was recited through Muhammed to the people of Arabia and according to the Qur'an, written down as each new revelation came.

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But nay! I swear by all that you see

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And all that you see not

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That this is verily the word of an honoured messenger;

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It is not the word of a poet: little it is ye believe!

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Nor is it the word of a soothsayer: little is it that ye remember!

It is a revelation from the Lord of the Worlds.



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And if he had fabricated against Us some of the sayings,

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We should certainly seize him by his right hand,

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And then severed his life-artery,

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And not one of you could have held Us off from him.

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But verily this is a Message for the God-fearing.

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And most surely We know that some of you are rejecters.

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And lo! it is indeed an anguish for the disbelievers.

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And lo! it is absolute truth.

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So glorify the name of thy Lord Most High.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

So what do you believe in?

Do you believe in:

1. God? What is God?

2. Ressurection/Judgement Day? What is it?

3. Paradise/Punishment? What is it?

4. Prophets/Messengers? Who are they?

5. Divine Inspiration? How?

6. The Torah? What is it?

7. The New Testament? What is it?

8. The Qur'an? What is it?

9. Beyond those questions feel free to clearify what it is you believe and why.



1. I believe in God. But I do not believe that anyone, in this day and age, knows God or anything about God. One would either have to lie or have blinding faith to say so.

2. Neither. People can understand that the universe is vast and has no end. People fail to realize the time and life are the same. There is no end as there was no beginning. Time forever goes forward and forever goes backward. If the end ever comes to the human race, it is because we have brought it upon ourselves.

3. Neither. We are larvae right now in the true cycle of "life". Once we die we are actually transcending our limitations; like a caterpillar to a butterfly. We will transcend our limitations and be able to see all. Our present plane of existence at all points of time and our extra-planar existence that we will suddenly be aware of.

If God truly sees all and knows all, God would be in this extra-planar existence. Angels, God's medium to us, would be messengers existing in the extra-planar existence poking through our plane of existence at certain points in time.

4. They are people who have actually reached enlightenment, and realized the true cycle of life. They spoke metaphorically because they had no words sophisticated enough to speak what they have realized.

5. Doesn't happen. People just happen to stumble on something great once in awhile.

6. A book Moses wrote in secret with no witnesses.

7. Nth hand stories, letters, and epistles about a man who reformed religion to suit humanity so humanity doesn't have to be suited to religion.

N >= 2

8. A book Muhammed wrote in secret with no witnesses.

9. Joseph Smith wrote the Book of Mormon in secret with no witnesses.

quote:Originally posted by postdiluvium:

1. I believe in God. But I do not believe that anyone, in this day and age, knows God or anything about God. One would either have to lie or have blinding faith to say so.

2. Neither. People can understand that the universe is vast and has no end. People fail to realize the time and life are the same. There is no end as there was no beginning. Time forever goes forward and forever goes backward. If the end ever comes to the human race, it is because we have brought it upon ourselves.

3. Neither. We are larvae right now in the true cycle of "life". Once we die we are actually transcending our limitations; like a caterpillar to a butterfly. We will transcend our limitations and be able to see all. Our present plane of existence at all points of time and our extra-planar existence that we will suddenly be aware of.

If God truly sees all and knows all, God would be in this extra-planar existence. Angels, God's medium to us, would be messengers existing in the extra-planar existence poking through our plane of existence at certain points in time.

4. They are people who have actually reached enlightenment, and realized the true cycle of life. They spoke metaphorically because they had no words sophisticated enough to speak what they have realized.

5. Doesn't happen. People just happen to stumble on something great once in awhile.

6. A book Moses wrote in secret with no witnesses.

7. Nth hand stories, letters, and epistles about a man who reformed religion to suit humanity so humanity doesn't have to be suited to religion.

N >= 2

8. A book Muhammed wrote in secret with no witnesses.

9. Joseph Smith wrote the Book of Mormon in secret with no witnesses.

According to the Qur'an the Qur'an was not a secret revelation exactly in all cases but was sometimes revealed and recited live with public witnesses. I only believe that because the book itself makes reference to such events happening. Furthermore Muhammed couldn't read or write according to the Qur'an and was un-educated so what was recited "through" him was recorded by scribes, according to the Qur'an.

So you perhaps wouldn't qualify as a Catholic or a Christian since you do not hold that Jesus was the literal begotten son of God who died for the sins of mankind?

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

I believe that Jesus had absolutely no father but only a Mother, who was his literal Mother, Mary.

I believe Jesus was created by God, just like how Adam was created by God, is Adam the son of God? Adam is rather, our ancestor, we are the Children of Adam.

The thing that separates Jesus from Adam is that Jesus was/is divine. The bible couldn't make it any clearer. I mean, the miracles and the ascension should be more than enough proof of his divinity.

quote:God has no literal Children and no literal Parents, God has always existed, one title that can be rightfully bestowed on God is Creator, or Originator, but God is no one's LITERAL Father, and no one's LITERAL son, do we agree on this point?

It's all semantics. Catholics believe Jesus is the son of God. Whether you take that personally to mean that God put his own dna/whatever in Mary through divine intervention or some other method connecting Jesus directly to God is up to you. I'm only telling you what Catholics believe.

quote:I believe all the Miracles performed by Jesus were only performed by the help of God and otherwise could not be done, thus qualifying them as Miracles. Who made a way for Moses? God. By who's leave did Jesus perform Miracles? God.

Biblical proof? I don't have a bible handy, but I'm pretty sure I recall Moses asking for God's assistance. I don't ever remember Jesus asking for assistance with any of his miracles.

quote:No being is Divine Save the One God. I don't believe that Jesus was ever crucified but that it was an illusion, they thought they had killed him while he was not even there.

Again, biblical proof?

quote:I hope you managed to read all of that, it was in relation to Jesus Primarilly. Please, if you didn't read it properly I hope you do take the time to read it all carefully.

I read it, but it has NOTHING to do with the Catholic beliefs. Please, in the future, when discussion Catholic or christian doctrine, it'd be wise of you to use the bible as your source, not the Koran.

quote:So you believe that Jesus, the Literal Son of Mary, was the Literal Son of God or the Metaphorical Son of God? If you say that Jesus is the Literal Son of God, how can it be so? We both know God is not a man or a being that has literal sons, but rather that God is all Powerful, Ruler and Creator of Everything.

You said it yourself, God is all powerful. How can YOU place limits on what God can and cannot do?

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

You said it yourself, God is all powerful. How can YOU place limits on what God can and cannot do?



Sons are something Men have, God is not a man.

Could you read this and tell me what you think?

http://www.islamawareness.net/Muhammed/muhamed_in_bible.html

Also:

"I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me." [John 5:30]

"For I have not spoken on my own initiative; but the Father Himself who sent me, has given me commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak." [John 12: 49]

"And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God." [Mark 10:18]

"And it came to pass in those days, that he went out into a mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God." [Luke 6:12]

"But no one knows of that day and hour, not even the angels of heaven, but my Father only" [Mathew 24:36]

"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father" [Mark 13:32]

"And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; the Lord our God is one Lord" [Mark 12:29]

"You are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God” [John 8:31]

"So Jesus answered them, 'My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me' " [John 7:16]

"Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. "All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me." Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.' " [NIV, Matthew 4:8-10]

"But I do not seek My glory; there is One who seeks and judges." [John 8:50]

"My Father is greater than I" [John 14:28]

quote:Originally posted by nicky69:

Do you really want to be confirmed? I was forced into it, and its the biggest regret i have.

Why in the hell would you regret confirmation?

It doesn't take a huge part out of your life.

If you don't believe in it anymore, then it doesn't mean anything. It's not like once you're confirmed, you're stuck.

quote:Originally posted by Inti:

Why in the hell would you regret confirmation?

It doesn't take a huge part out of your life.

If you don't believe in it anymore, then it doesn't mean anything. It's not like once you're confirmed, you're stuck.

I agree, confirmation means nothing, save the meaning you put into it.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

Sons are something Men have, God is not a man.

Could you read this and tell me what you think?



I read it but I don't see the relevance muhammed has on a discussion of Catholicism. Could you please stop interjecting him into discussions where he doesn't fit. If you want to discuss Catholicism, then by all means, let us discuss it, but you must stop trying to change every subject to Islam.

God is all powerful, he could definitely have a son, unless you're saying that God can't do something.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

I read it but I don't see the relevance muhammed has on a discussion of Catholicism. Could you please stop interjecting him into discussions where he doesn't fit. If you want to discuss Catholicism, then by all means, let us discuss it, but you must stop trying to change every subject to Islam.

God is all powerful, he could definitely have a son, unless you're saying that God can't do something.

What would a "son" of an infinite all encompassing God be? Son is a distinction in relation to human relationships, a Son is something a human Fathers.

The Muhammed link attempts to show that the Old and New Testament may have predicted the coming of the Qur'an and Muhammed, I wanted you to read it entirely without skimming and tell me what you think?

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

What would a "son" of an infinite all encompassing God be? Son is a distinction in relation to human relationships, a Son is something a human Fathers.

The Muhammed link attempts to show that the Old and New Testament may have predicted the coming of the Qur'an and Muhammed, I wanted you to read it entirely without skimming and tell me what you think?

By Gosh, that son would be God as well, hence you have the trinity!

Are you saying that an omnipotent God CANNOT have a son? Are you doubting the power of God?

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

By Gosh, that son would be God as well, hence you have the trinity!

Are you saying that an omnipotent God CANNOT have a son? Are you doubting the power of God?

I am saying God is not a Man that he should have sons, that God is far beyond having children because God is not human and a child is something a human has.

Furthermore the Distinction "Son of God" is not uniquely bestowed upon Jesus but is used in reference towards other Prophets as well. The word Son in greek is Pais, the same word for Servant. Exchange the word Servant for Son and you will have a more accurate picture in my opinion. The Servant of God, The Servant of Man.

The Trinity was decided at the Council of Nicea due to diverging beliefs in the Christian Religion.

Did you read those quotes from the New Testament that I copy pasted? Those seem pretty clear!

Not all early Christians believes that Jesus was God, some believed Jesus was the son of God, some believes that it was only a metaphor, others believed Jesus was the Prophet of God and the Messiah, others held that Jesus was less powerful than God, others held that Jesus was equal to God, others held that Jesus was God. The Council of Nicea decided to solve all these problems by creating the Trinity...God is One but of Three distinct aspects, God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit all of which are equal but different yet part of the same one God. This is not entirely congruent with all of the New Testament as shown by some of the quotes above.

What say you?!

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

I am saying God is not a Man that he should have sons, that God is far beyond having children because God is not human and a child is something a human has.

And I'm saying that it's entirely reasonable for God to have a son when you consider the actions the son took while on earth. When you consider the actions of Jesus, no one besides him(the SON of God) could have done them. No mortal could have died for our sins, only the son of God.

quote:Furthermore the Distinction "Son of God" is not uniquely bestowed upon Jesus but is used in reference towards other Prophets as well. The word Son in greek is Pais, the same word for Servant. Exchange the word Servant for Son and you will have a more accurate picture in my opinion. The Servant of God, The Servant of Man.

That doesn't take into account any of the gospels which help to establish Jesus as divine and as the son of God.

quote:The Trinity was decided at the Council of Nicea due to diverging beliefs in the Christian Religion.

Did you read those quotes from the New Testament that I copy pasted? Those seem pretty clear!

Did you read the Catholic encyclopedia article on the trinity? That seems pretty clear as well!

quote:Not all early Christians believes that Jesus was God, some believed Jesus was the son of God, some believes that it was only a metaphor, others believed Jesus was the Prophet of God and the Messiah, others held that Jesus was less powerful than God, others held that Jesus was equal to God, others held that Jesus was God. The Council of Nicea decided to solve all these problems by creating the Trinity...God is One but of Three distinct aspects, God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit all of which are equal but different yet part of the same one God. This is not entirely congruent with all of the New Testament as shown by some of the quotes above.

But it makes sense. Besides, the bible is horribly contradictory, so while it doesn't mesh with certain quotes, it makes much sense with others. Using bible contradiction in this case proves nothing.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

But it makes sense. Besides, the bible is horribly contradictory, so while it doesn't mesh with certain quotes, it makes much sense with others. Using bible contradiction in this case proves nothing.



You are saying it is reasonable for Jesus to be the son of God, I'm saying that the term SON in a literal sense, denotes actual Fatherhood, and we both know that God isn't the LITERAL Father of anyone, because God isn't a man who ejaculated in someone.

He can be the literal father of someone because he is ALL FUCKING POWERFUL. Are you denying the power of God?

Are you a blasphemer?

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

He can be the literal father of someone because he is ALL FUCKING POWERFUL. Are you denying the power of God?

Are you a blasphemer?

So a Rock can be the Literal father of something? I thought only animals are the literal fathers of things.

A rock? What does a rock have to do with this conversation?

Just answer this one question. Assuming that God is all powerful, why can't he father a child? If he has the power to do ANYTHING possibly, why can't he do that?

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

A rock? What does a rock have to do with this conversation?

Just answer this one question. Assuming that God is all powerful, why can't he father a child? If he has the power to do ANYTHING possibly, why can't he do that?

(Just as you might agree that a Rock does not have Literal Genetic Biological Children you can understand this is so because a Rock is not a human or an animal, it does not have reproductive organs and can not literally father anything nor is a rock male or female which is a distinction based on the reproductive organs one is born with.)

—Synonyms 2. powerful, mighty, supreme.

om‧nip‧o‧tent  /ɒmˈnɪpətənt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[om-nip-uh-tuhnt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–adjective 1. almighty or infinite in power, as God.

God is Omnipotent, God's Power is Unlimited, this is true, being all mighty and having control over the entire universe doesn't have anything to do with the TERM Son.

son (sn) Pronunciation Key

n.

One's male child.

A male descendant.

A man considered as if in a relationship of child to parent: a son of the soil.

son

n 1: a male human offspring;

For the SIMPLE REASON that GOD has NO GENETICS (because God invented Genetics and existed before genetics and is not a HUMAN BEING or ANIMAL) God does not have a LITERAL SON IN THE WAY HUMAN FATHERS DO. Do you agree?

human being 

1. any individual of the genus Homo, esp. a member of the species Homo sapiens.

2. a person, esp. as distinguished from other animals or as representing the human species: living conditions not fit for human beings; a very generous human being.

IS GOD OMNIPOTENT (Meaning All Powerful in the sense of Control and Might) or IS GOD AN INDIVIDUAL FROM THE GENUS HOMO WHO HAD A SON WITH MARY?

Is Jesus the LITERAL SON OR THE METAPHORICAL SON?

lit‧er‧al  /ˈlɪtərəl/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[lit-er-uhl] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–adjective 1. in accordance with, involving, or being the primary or strict meaning of the word or words; not figurative or metaphorical: the literal meaning of a word.

met‧a‧phor  /ˈmɛtəˌfɔr, -fər/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[met-uh-fawr, -fer] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun 1. a figure of speech in which a term or phrase is applied to something to which it is not literally applicable in order to suggest a resemblance, as in “A mighty fortress is our God.” Compare mixed metaphor, simile (def. 1).

2. something used, or regarded as being used, to represent something else; emblem; symbol.

So what will it be?

Is God a Human who had a Human son? Because only Humans can have Literal Human Children, and the Definition of Omnipotence has nothing to do with God having Children because Omnipotent means All Powerful in the sense of being Supreme and in Control of Everything.

Human Beings and Animals have Children, the males are the sons, the females are the daughters, God is not a Human Being, God is not an Animal, God has no Literal Sons or Daughters as in those who share God's Genetics (God has no Genetics because God existed before Genetics) and God is not an animal who mated with a being, shared DNA and gave it a child.

Does a FATHER create his Son? No, A Father is only half of the equation, the other half is the mother, and this is something HUMAN BEINGS AND ANIMALS DO, a PROCESS CREATED BY GOD.

God is not a Father, A Son, or Sharing Genetics with ANYONE.

Jesus was the CREATION OF GOD, agreed?

Adam was the CREATION OF GOD, agreed?

So too is everything in the entire universe past present and future a CREATION OF GOD, agreed?

Is God a Man? No.

Is God an Animal? No.

Where is God? Everywhere.

What does Omnipotent mean? It means God has control over everything.

Does God have a singular form, A being which is limited to an image? No.

Is God a Man that he should Father children? No.

Is God a Creator that he should Create beings? Yes.

Is God the Literal Father of Jesus? No.

Is Joseph the Literal Father of Jesus? No.

Is Mary the Literal Mother of Jesus? Yes.

Does Jesus have any Literal Father? No.

Does Jesus have a creator? Yes.

Who created Jesus? God.

Who created Adam? God.

Who created You? God.

Was Mary a Virgin? Yes.

Was the Birth of Jesus a Miracle of God? Yes.

Does Omnipotence or God's Control over everything mean that God is an animal that has Genetics and can have Literal Genetic Children in the way that Animals Do? No.

Does God's Control over everything mean that God can create something from nothing? Yes.

Would that Something that God creates be the Child of God, by Definition, or the Creation of God, by Definition? The Creation of God.

No one is the Literal Dictionary Definition Genetic Son of God.

Everyone is the Literal Dictionary Definition Creation of God.

Do we agree? Please don't repeat the question in which you accuse me of saying God is not all controlling by my denial of God having literal children as the definition of literal children means that God is a man or animal who had a literal genetic son and that simply isn't true because God isn't a human or animal.

You would even get further saying Jesus is the ADOPTED son of God because the definition may not be absolutely false and can be argued better because God can metaphorically adopt a child as in taking any human or animal under God's power and caring for it.

Is God the Biological Parent to ANYTHING? No.

Is God the Creator of Everything? Yes.

What am I saying that is false and why will you persist in speaking a lie of God, it is OBVIOUS TRUTH THAT GOD IS NOT A HUMAN BEING OR ANIMAL THUS DOES NOT HAVE BIOLOGICAL LITERAL CHILDREN AND TO SAY SO IS WRONG BY DEFINITION AND IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH OMNIPOTENCE WHICH MEANS ULTIMATE CONTROL AND POWER.

[This message has been edited by Abrahim (edited 09-01-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

God is Omnipotent, God's Power is Unlimited, this is true, being all mighty and having control over the entire universe doesn't have anything to do with the TERM Son.

But it does give him the power to do anything, including things which oviously don't make sense to you. If God is all powerful, then he can have a son. Do you admit that? Can you quote and address this question by itself with either a yes or no answer(save your explanations for later).

quote:For the SIMPLE REASON that GOD has NO GENETICS (because God invented Genetics and existed before genetics and is not a HUMAN BEING or ANIMAL) God does not have a LITERAL SON IN THE WAY HUMAN FATHERS DO. Do you agree?

I don't agree entirely. I agree God is not an animal, but since God is the supreme and all powerful ruler of the universe, he has the power to have a son. Are you denying the power of God?

quote:IS GOD OMNIPOTENT (Meaning All Powerful in the sense of Control and Might) or IS GOD AN INDIVIDUAL FROM THE GENUS HOMO WHO HAD A SON WITH MARY?

If he's all powerful, he doesn't been to be a human to have a son. He's all fucking powerful for christ's sake! Does this not comprehend in your brain. He's fucking God. He can do anything he wants, including having a son!

quote:Is Jesus the LITERAL SON OR THE METAPHORICAL SON?

Literal in the sense of Genetic son? I don't think so. But I don' think, if you're reading the bible, you could say that God isn't the father of Jesus.

quote:Is God a Human who had a Human son? Because only Humans can have Literal Human Children, and the Definition of Omnipotence has nothing to do with God having Children because Omnipotent means All Powerful in the sense of being Supreme and in Control of Everything.

I'm going to ask this one more time. If God is all powerful(has the power to do anything), then why can't he have a son? Why are you denying the power of God? So which is it, is God all powerful and he can have a son, or is god limited by nature and thus isn't all powerful so he can't have a son?

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

I'm going to ask this one more time. If God is all powerful(has the power to do anything), then why can't he have a son? Why are you denying the power of God? So which is it, is God all powerful and he can have a son, or is god limited by nature and thus isn't all powerful so he can't have a son?



God has no genetic, literal, biological son because God has no genetics or biology (not an animal or human or creation).

God is has all the power and control, that doesn't mean that the literal meaning of son applies.

Do you admit that if God is all powerful then he can have a literal son. Are you telling me that it's impossible for God to have a literal son? Yes or no?

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

Do you admit that if God is all powerful then he can have a literal son. Are you telling me that it's impossible for God to have a literal son? Yes or no?

I am telling you that God is no longer God if he is a man or an animal and only men and animals have literal biological genetic sons.

Would you please directly answer my question. You say you want to have this conversation, but you refuse to answer my questions.

Yes or no, is it impossible for God to have a son?

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

Would you please directly answer my question. You say you want to have this conversation, but you refuse to answer my questions.

Yes or no, is it impossible for God to have a son?

Perhaps you are not listening carefully to how I am answering your question.

My answer is YES it is IMPOSSIBLE for GOD to FATHER a LITERAL BIOLOGICAL SON. This has nothing to do with God's OMNIPOTENCE because God is the only thing that is in complete control.

Why is it impossible for God to Father a LITERAL BIOLOGICAL SON? Because ONLY ANIMALS, HUMAN BEINGS more specifically, are capable of FATHERING LITERAL BIOLOGICAL CHILDREN. Why? Because only animals have sexual reproductive organs and give their genes through mating and procreation.

When God ceases to be God and begins being an Animal or a Human that is when God is no longer God and the title is gone from God the creator to A human Father of children.

Do you understand what I'm saying? You're saying God can do anything so God can become a crocodile, I'm saying God can't become a crocodile, if God did become a crocodile God would no longer be God, but a crocodile!

So in this case I'm saying God is God, God is not a human, if God was a human God could father biological children but would not be God, God is a very supreme and distinct role. If God were a human God would not be God, but a human.

There is God, there are Humans, there are Animals besides humans, the two latter are the creation of the former, God is not a human or an animal or else God would be a human or an animal and not God.

Does this make any sense to you?

God can not have biological literal children because only humans and animals can have biological literal children through the process of procreation, if God were to be a biological father God would no longer be God, but a biological father. God has no genetics or limited form, human beings do have genetics and limited forms.

PLEASE READ THE ABOVE AND WHAT COMES AFTER CAREFULLY! PLEASE UNDERSTAND WHAT I AM SAYING.

You are stating that God can do anything.

I am stating that Omnipotent means All Powerful in the sense of Total Control and Power over things and this has nothing to do with God becoming something that is not God.

You are stating that God can do anything, thus God can become a Crocodile.

I am stating that if God became a crocodile, God would no longer be God, there would just be a crocodile.

God is God and does not change, God is all encompassing and what all these things exist within and are created by.

ONLY humans and animals can father literal biological sons.

God can not because God is not a human or an animal, does not have genitalia, reproductive organs, or genetics. If God was a human then God would be a human and wouldn't be God because God can only be God it is a distinct role.

A crocodile is a crocodile, a man is a man, and God is God. Get it?

People misunderstand the meaning of Omnipotent. It does not mean something that can Undo itself. It means something that has power and control over everything.

Understand, the only reason God can not have biological children is because God has no biology, God is not a human or an animal, those are the two things that have biological children because they have genetics and reproductive organs.

God is the creator of Adam and Jesus. God has always existed. Jesus was a human being who had no father, God is not the biological father of Jesus because God did not ejaculate in Mary and has no genetics. God created Jesus in the womb of Mary, a miracle.

So if ANYTHING Jesus being the SON is not a LITERAL truth, but only a Metaphor.

Do not SKIM this answer to your question please and don't close your heart and mind to any understanding of what I am saying.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

Perhaps you are not listening carefully to how I am answering your question.

My answer is YES it is IMPOSSIBLE for GOD to FATHER a LITERAL BIOLOGICAL SON. This has nothing to do with God's OMNIPOTENCE because God is the only thing that is in complete control.

That's all I need to hear. You're obviously a blasphemer who denies the power of God.

I don't know how you can say God is all powerful in one sentence, then say it's impossible for him to do something in another. You're completely contradicting yourself.

Is it impossible for God to communicate to humans? Only animals communicate with humans, so is it impossible? Can God talk to humans?

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

That's all I need to hear. You're obviously a blasphemer who denies the power of God.

I don't know how you can say God is all powerful in one sentence, then say it's impossible for him to do something in another. You're completely contradicting yourself.

Is it impossible for God to communicate to humans? Only animals communicate with humans, so is it impossible? Can God talk to humans?

God communicates to people through inspiration, messengers, and everything else we see.

It is not a blasphemy for me to state that God can not be a human. I am simply stating if God was a human then God wouldn't be God, God would be a human. Is that blasphemy? No. You're the blasphemer who seems to be insisting that God is limited to a form and is in the image of humans and is a literal father of a literal biological son.

I think that you should let it sink in what I'm saying so you see that I'm not speaking blasphemy.

You are stating that God can do ANYTHING including ceasing to be God, I am stating that God wouldn't be God if God ceased to be God, God doing something that would make God not God is not within the range of God because if God did that, God wouldn't be God.

God never began to exist, God didn't create itself, God was is and always will be, it is essentially all there is and ever was and ever will be, everything is made of it and dependant on it, within it and existing by it. In that sense absolutely everything is a manifestation of God but no single thing is God, God encompasses the whole.

Can God do something that makes God not God? No I don't think so. Can God do something God can't do? No. Does this have to do with the word Omnipotent? No, because despite, God has the ultimate power and control over everything. This does not mean God can do ANYTHING in the sense that God can NOT do something (which would be included in ANYTHING) and it doesn't mean that God can do something that makes God cease to exist.

God is God.

Man is Man.

God has no Image but all images are within God.

Man has an image, given by God.

The definition of a Literal Biological Father is one who is half of a child's genetics.

God has no genetics. Mary had genetics. God created Jesus. Jesus is the literal, biological son of Mary who gave birth to him, but the miracle is that Jesus has no literal biological father.

If God was a man then God would be a man and wouldn't be a God or God.

Humans and Animals are literal biological fathers to their children, God can't be for the simple reason that God has no genetics or reproductive organs.

Omnipotent doesn't mean God can do anything including things made impossible even for God, but it means that God controls everything and has power over everything and this is true.

God created Jesus and was whom Jesus worshipped and obeyed. Jesus was not God incarnate as I've shown in the quotes above. Jesus prays to God, not to himself.

Please let me repeat this simple statement.

Humans and Animals have biological children.

Rocks do not have biological children.

God does not have biological children because God is not a human or an animal.

If God were a human or an animal then God would not be God, God would be a human or an animal.

You are insisting in a way that God is a human and fathered a biological child in the way your father fathered you and I will never utter such blasphemy, the arrogance of man is far reaching so that they even wish to claim their creator is in their image.

God is imageless, is no ones father, has no children, this is because God is not a man or an animal. To God does all control and power belong, this does not mean that God can do anything including things "God can not do" such as the question "Can God create a rock that God can't lift?" or in our case "Can God become something that is Not God?" No, God can't create a rock that God can't lift because God is all powerful and can not negate his own power. No, God can't become not God. Omnipotence does not mean "Able to do anything including making himself non God or incapable" it means to whom All Power and Control belongs.

"I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me." [John 5:30]

"For I have not spoken on my own initiative; but the Father Himself who sent me, has given me commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak." [John 12: 49]

"And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God." [Mark 10:18]

"And it came to pass in those days, that he went out into a mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God." [Luke 6:12]

"But no one knows of that day and hour, not even the angels of heaven, but my Father only" [Mathew 24:36]

"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father" [Mark 13:32]

"And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; the Lord our God is one Lord" [Mark 12:29]

"You are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God” [John 8:31]

"So Jesus answered them, 'My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me' " [John 7:16]

"Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. "All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me." Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.' " [NIV, Matthew 4:8-10]

"But I do not seek My glory; there is One who seeks and judges." [John 8:50]

"My Father is greater than I" [John 14:28]

MIRACLES DON'T PROVE DIVINITY, GOD IS THE ONLY ONE WHO ALLOWS MIRACLES TO BE PERFORMED, LOOK AT THE ABOVE QUOTES ISN'T IT OBVIOUS THAT JESUS IS THE SERVANT OF GOD WHO SENT HIM?

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

God communicates to people through inspiration, messengers, and everything else we see.

It is not a blasphemy for me to state that God can not be a human. I am simply stating if God was a human then God wouldn't be God, God would be a human. Is that blasphemy? No. You're the blasphemer who seems to be insisting that God is limited to a form and is in the image of humans and is a literal father of a literal biological son.

I think that you should let it sink in what I'm saying so you see that I'm not speaking blasphemy.

It's more than obvious to me that you're not a believer in God. You're denying his power and you're placing logical constraints on him. You should drop your act of being a believer and just admit that you don't believe in God.

I'm going to explain this once more.

If God is all powerful, he can do ANYTHING. He can violate the laws of thermodynamics. He can violate gravity. He could do fucking anything, even things that would serve no purpose and would completely violate the laws and logic that you and I are confined too. Do you understand this, or do I need to explain more clearly?

Anyways, if God can do anything, then that means NOTHING is impossible for him, even things that would violate your logic and my logic, including him having a son. You're trying to apply logic to God, which is flawed to begin with, but becomes even more flawed when you try to apply logic to his supposed omnipotence.

Do you realize how stupid it is for you to use human logic for God? Yes, God is not an animal, but he is all fucking powerful, meaning that he can do ANYTHING that an animal can do and then some.

quote:You are stating that God can do ANYTHING including ceasing to be God, I am stating that God wouldn't be God if God ceased to be God, God doing something that would make God not God is not within the range of God because if God did that, God wouldn't be God.

He wouldn't cease to be God if he had a son. He doesn't have to be a man to have a son, he's fucking omnipotent, remember? You're continuing your mistake of using your own logic and applying it to God. If God exists, do you really think he subscribes to our earthly and humanistic logic? Of course he doesn't.



Seriously, you should really stop with your blasphemy. It's quite unbecoming a believer.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

He wouldn't cease to be God if he had a son. He doesn't have to be a man to have a son, he's fucking omnipotent, remember? You're continuing your mistake of using your own logic and applying it to God. If God exists, do you really think he subscribes to our earthly and humanistic logic? Of course he doesn't.



Seriously, you should really stop with your blasphemy. It's quite unbecoming a believer.



So if God said Jesus was a cat, and Jesus was obviously a human, you would believe that Jesus was literally a cat? The human definition of a cat is sort of specific, the human definition of a biological son is sort of specific too. Its not about human logic, it is about human definitions, do you believe Jesus is the literal biological human son of the literal, non human, creator who lacks physical anatomy?

Like I said before, Omnipotent doesn't mean God can do everything even including things that are impossible for God like the silly question "Can God create a rock so heavy that God can not lift it?" The answer would be Yes according to your understanding of Omnipotence, or a circuit malfunction, but an actual understanding of the word is not that God has all the power and control over everything, this is why I pasted the definition, to help illustrate this simple point about the word and how it is often misunderstood.

My God is completely integrated, I see my God everywhere, everyday, every moment, waking and sleeping, My God is not far away but incredibly close, closer than the atoms that make up me and all that is around me.

We have definitions of words to make things clear. A human is a human, a crocodile is a crocodile, this is because these two things are different and can be seen as such pretty easily!

Also I think you might have skimmed or ignored the article I posted about how Muhammed was mentioned and predicted in the Bible so I will copy paste it here for your reading enjoyment. You may feel it is off topic but it is not, in my opinion, it is to show you that the Qur'an is not some crooked book but something that is predicted even long ago and the article helps to prove that in depth, please don't skim (Copy pasted from another place in which I posted this):

Here are some quotes from the Bible:

"I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me." [John 5:30]

"For I have not spoken on my own initiative; but the Father Himself who sent me, has given me commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak." [John 12: 49]

"And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God." [Mark 10:18]

"And it came to pass in those days, that he went out into a mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God." [Luke 6:12]

"But no one knows of that day and hour, not even the angels of heaven, but my Father only" [Mathew 24:36]

"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father" [Mark 13:32]

"And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; the Lord our God is one Lord" [Mark 12:29]

"You are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God” [John 8:31]

"So Jesus answered them, 'My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me' " [John 7:16]

"Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. "All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me." Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.' " [NIV, Matthew 4:8-10]

"But I do not seek My glory; there is One who seeks and judges." [John 8:50]

__________________

Jesus was not God but the Servant of God.

Please explain how what the Qur'an says is Misguided Heresy?

Do you think that the Bible does not include anything about the coming of Muhammed and the Qur'an?

Please read the following article, a segment from a book called Muhammed in the Bible: http://www.islamawareness.net/Muhammed/muhamed_in_bible.html

Lucky Thirteen :

I was invited to the Transvaal (South Africa) to deliver a talk on the occasion of the birthday of the prophet Muhammed. Knowing that in that province of the Republic, the Afrikaans language is widely spoken, even by my own people, I felt that I ought to acquire a smattering of this language so as to feel a little "at home" with the people. I opened the telephone directory and began phoning the Afrikaans-speaking Churches. I indicated my purpose to the priests that I was interested in having a dialogue with them, but they all refused my request with "plausible" excuses.

No. 13 was my lucky number. The thirteenth call brought me pleasure and relief. A Dominee Van Heerden ("Dominee" is the Afrikaans equivalent of "priest") agreed to meet me at his home on the Saturday afternoon that I was to leave for Transvaal.

He received me on his verandah with a friendly welcome. He said if I did not mind, he would like his father-in- law from the Free State, a 70 year old man, to join us in the discussion. I did not mind. The three of us settled down in the Dominee's library.



Why Nothing?

I posed the question: "What does the Bible say about Muhammed?" Without hesitation he answered: "Nothing!" I asked: "Why nothing? According to your interpretation the Bible has so many things to say about the rise of Soviet Russia and about the Last Days and even about the Pope of the Roman Catholics?" He said: "Yes, but there was nothing about Muhammed!" I asked again: "Why nothing? Surely this man Muhammed who had been responsible for the bringing into being a world-wide community of millions of believers who, on his authority, believe in:

the miraculous birth of Jesus,

that Jesus is the Messiah,

that he gave life to the dead by God's permission, and that he healed those born blind and the lepers by God's permission.

Surely this book (the Bible) must have something to say about this great leader of men who spoke so well of Jesus and his mother Mary?"

The old man from the Free State replied: "My son, I have been reading the Bible for the past 50 years, and if there was any mention of him, I would have known it."



Not One by Name!

I inquired: "According to you, are there not hundreds of prophecies regarding the coming of Jesus in the Old Testament." The Dominee interjected: "Not hundreds, but thousands!" I said: "I am not going to dispute the thousand and one prophecies in the Old Testament regarding the coming of Jesus Christ, because the whole Muslim world has already accepted him without the testimony of any Biblical prophecy. Muslims have accepted the de facto Jesus on the authority of Muhammed alone, and there are in the world today no less than 900,000,000 followers of Muhammed, who love, respect, and revere Jesus Christ as a great Messenger of God without having the Christians to convince them by means of Biblical dialectics.

Out of the 'thousands' of prophecies referred to, can you please give me just one single prophecy where Jesus is mentioned by name? The term Messiah, translated as Christ, is not a name but a title. Is there a single prophecy where it says that the name of the Messiah will be Jesus, and that his mother's name will be Mary, that his supposed father will be Joseph the Carpenter; that he will be born in the reign of Herod the King, etc? No! There are no such details! Then how can you conclude that those 'Thousand' prophecies refer to Jesus, peace be upon him?"



What is Prophecy?

The Dominee replies: "You see, prophecies are word pictures of something that is going to happen in the future. When that thing actually comes to pass, we see vividly in these prophecies the fulfillment of what had been predicted in the past." I said: "What you actually do is that you deduce, you reason, you put two and two together." He said: "Yes." I said: "If this is what you have to do with a 'thousand' prophecies to justify your claim with regards to the genuineness of Jesus, why should we not adopt the very same system for Muhammed?" The Dominee agreed that it was a fair proposition, a reasonable way of dealing with the problem.

I asked him to open up Deuteronomy, chapter 18, verse 18, which he did. I read from memory the verse in Afrikaans, because this was my purpose in having a little practice with the language of the ruling race in South Africa.

"N Profeet sal ek vir hulle verwek uit die midde van hulle broers, soos jy is, en ek sal my woorde in sy mond le, en hy sy sal aan hulle se alle wat ekhom beveel." (Deut 18:18)

The English translation reads as follows:

"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and I will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him." (Deut 18:18)



Prophet Like Moses :

Having recited the verse in Afrikaans, I apologized for my uncertain pronunciation; the Dominee assured me that I was doing fine. I inquired: "To whom does this prophecy refer?" Without the slightest hesitation he answered: "Jesus!" I asked: "Why Jesus? his name is not mentioned here" The Dominee replied: "Since prophecies are word pictures of something that is going to happen in the future, we find that the wordings of this verse adequately describe him. You see, the most important words of this prophecy are 'soos jy is', 'like unto thee', or 'like you' - like Moses; and Jesus is like Moses."

I asked the Dominee: "In which way is Jesus like Moses?" The answer was: "In the first place Moses was a Jew and Jesus was also a Jew; secondly, Moses was a Prophet and Jesus was also a Prophet - therefor Jesus is like Moses and that is exactly what God had foretold Moses - 'soos jy is'."

"Can you think of any other similarities between Moses and Jesus?" I asked. The Dominee said that he could not think of any. I replied: "If these are the only two criteria for discovering a candidate for this prophecy of Deuteronomy 18:18, then in that case the criteria could fit any one of the following Biblical personages after Moses:- Solomon, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Malachi, John the Baptist etc., because they were also all Jews as well as Prophets. Why should we not apply this prophecy to any one of these prophets, and why only to Jesus?" The Dominee had no reply. I continued: "You see, my conclusions are that Jesus is most unlike Moses, and if I am wrong I would like you to correct me."



Three Unlike :

So staying, I reasoned with him: "In the first place Jesus is not like Moses, because, according to you, Jesus is God, but Moses is not God, is this true?" He said: "Yes." I said: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses!". "Secondly, according to you, Jesus died for the sins of the world, but Moses did not have to die for the sins of the world. Is this true?" He again said: "Yes." I said: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses!". "Thirdly, according to you, Jesus went to Hell for three days, but Moses did not have to go there. Is this true?" He answered meekly: "Y-e-s!" I concluded: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses!". "But Dominee,.." I continued: "..these are not hard, solid facts, they are mere matters of belief over which the little ones can stumble and fall. Let us discuss something very simple, very easy that if the little ones are called in to hear the discussion, would have no difficulty following it, shall we?" The Dominee was quiet happy at the suggestion.



Father and Mother

"Moses had a father and a mother. Muhammed also had a father and a mother. But Jesus had only a mother, and no human father. Is this true?" He said: "Yes." I said: "Daarom is Jesus nie soos Moses nie, maar Muhammed is soos Moses!" Meaning: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses, but Muhammed is like Moses!" (By now the reader will realize that I was using the Afrikaans language only for practice purposes. I shall discontinue its use in this narration).

Miraculous Birth

"Moses and Muhammed were born in the normal, natural course, i.e. the physical association of man and woman; but Jesus was created by a special miracle. You will recall that we are told in the Gospel of St. Matthew 1:18 "..before they came together, (Joseph the Carpenter and Mary) she was found with child by the Holy Ghost." And St. Luke tells us that when the good news of the birth of a holy son was announced to her, Mary reasoned: "How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? And the angel answered and said unto her, the Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the highest shall overshadow thee"(Luke 1:35).

The Holy Quran confirms the miraculous birth of Jesus, in nobler and sublimer terms. In answer to her logical question:

'O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?' The angel says in reply: 'Even so, Allah createth what He willeth: when He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it 'Be', and it is' (the Holy Quran, 3:47).

It is not necessary for God to plant a seed in man or animal. He merely wills it and it comes into being. This is the Muslim conception of the of birth of Jesus. (When I compared the Quran and the Biblical versions of the birth of Jesus to the head of the Bible Society in our largest city, and when I inquired: "Which version would you prefer to give your daughter, the Quranic version or the Biblical version?" The man bowed his head and answered: "The Quranic.")(see Christ in Islam for the author).

In short, I said to the Dominee: "Is it true that Jesus was born miraculously as against the natural birth of Moses and Muhammed?" He replied proudly: "Yes!" I said: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses, but Muhammed is like Moses. And God says to Moses in the Book of Deuteronomy 18:18 'Like unto thee', 'Like You', like Moses and Muhammed is like Moses."

Marriage Ties

"Moses and Muhammed married and had children, but Jesus remained a bachelor all his life. Is this true?" The Dominee said: "Yes." I said: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses, but Muhammed is like Moses."

Jesus Rejected by his People

"Moses and Muhammed were accepted as prophets by their people in their very lifetime. No doubt the Jews gave endless trouble to Moses and they murmured in the wilderness, but as a nation, they acknowledged that Moses was a Messenger of God sent to them. The Arabs too made Muhammed's life impossible. He suffered very badly at their hands. After 13 years of preaching in Mecca, he had to emigrate from the city of his birth. But before his demise, the Arab nation as a whole accepted him as the Messenger of Allah. But according to the Bible, "He (Jesus) Came unto his own, but his own revived him not"(John 1:11). And even today, after two thousand years, his people, the Jews, as a whole, have rejected him. Is this true?" The Dominee said: "Yes." I said: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses, but Muhammed is like Moses."

"Other Worldly" Kingdom

"Moses and Muhammed were prophets as well as kings. A prophet means a man who receives Divine Revelation for the Guidance of man and this Guidance he conveys to God's creatures as received without any addition or deletion. A king is a person who has the power of life and death over his people. It is immaterial whether the person wears a crown or not, or whether he was ever addressed as king or monarch: if the man has the prerogative of inflicting capital punishment, he is a king. Moses possessed such a power. Do you remember the Israelite who was found picking up firewood on Sabbath Day, and Moses had him stoned to death? (Numbers 15:13). There are other crimes also mentioned in the Bible for which capital punishment was inflicted on the Jews at the behest of Moses. Muhammed too, had the power of life and death over his people.

There are instances in the Bible of persons who were given gift of prophecy only, but they were not in a position to implement their directives. Some of these holy men of God who were helpless in the face of stubborn rejection of their message, were the prophets Lot, Jonah, Daniel, Ezra, and John the Baptist. They could only deliver the message, but could not enforce the Law. Prophet Jesus, peace be upon him, also belonged to this category.

The Christian Gospel clearly confirms this. When Jesus was dragged before the Roman Governor, Pontius Pilate, charged for sedition, Jesus made a convincing point in his defense to refute the false charge: Jesus answered: "My Kingdom is not of this world. If my Kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now is my Kingdom not from hence"(John 18:36).

This convinced Pilate (a pagan) that though Jesus might not be in full possession of his mental faculty, he did not strike him as being a danger to his rule. Jesus claimed a spiritual Kingdom only; in other words he only claimed to be a prophet. Is this true?" The Dominee answered: "Yes." I said: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses but Muhammed is like Moses."

No New Laws

"Moses and Muhammed brought new laws and new regulations for their people. Moses not only gave the Ten Commandments to the Israelites, but a very comprehensive ceremonial law for the guidance of his people. Muhammed comes to a people steeped in ignorance. They married their step-mothers and buried their daughters alive; drunkenness, idolatry, and gambling were the order of the day. There was hardly anything to distinguish between the 'man' and the 'animal' of the time. From this abject ignorance, Muhammed elevated the Arabs, in the words of Thomas Carlysle, 'Into torch-bearers of light and learning. To the Arab nation it was as a birth from darkness into light. Arabia first became alive by means of it. A poor shepherd people, roaming unnoticed in its deserts since the creation of the world. See, the unnoticed becomes world notable, the small has grown world-great. Within one century afterwards Arabia was at Granada on one hand and at Delhi on the other. Glancing in valor and splendor, and the light of Genius, Arabia shines over section of the world..'.

The fact is that Muhammed gave his people a Law and Order they never had before. As regards Jesus, when the Jews felt suspicious of him that he might be an impostor with designs to pervert their teachings. Jesus took pains to assure them that he had not come with a new religion - no new laws and no new regulations. I quote his own words: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law of the Prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot of one title shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.'(Mathew 5:17-18).

In other words he had not come with any new laws or regulation he came only to fulfill the old law. This what he gave the Jews to understand unless he was speaking with the tongue in his cheek trying to bluff the Jews into accepting him as a man of God and by subterfuge trying to ram a new religion down their throats. No! This Messenger of God would never resort to such foul means to subvert the Religion of God. He himself fulfilled the laws. He observed the commandments of Moses, and he respected the Sabbath. At no time did a single Jew point a finger at him to say: '"Why don't you fast' or 'why don't you wash your hands before you break bread', which charges they always levied against his disciples, but never against Jesus. This is because as a good Jew he honored the laws of the prophets who preceded him. In short, he had created no new religion and had brought no new law like Moses and Muhammed."

"Isn't this true?" I asked the Dominee, and he answered: "Yes." I said: "Therefore, Jesus is not like Moses but Muhammed is like Moses."

How they Departed

"Both Moses and Muhammed died natural deaths, but according to Christianity, Jesus was killed on the cross. Is this true?" The Dominee said: "Yes." I averred: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses but Muhammed is like Moses."

Heavenly Abode

"Moses and Muhammed both lie buried in earth, but according to you, Jesus is in heaven. Is this true? The Dominee agreed. I said: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses but Muhammed is like Moses."

Ishmael the First Born

Since the Dominee was helplessly agreeing with every point, I said: "Dominee, so far what I have done is to prove only one point out of the whole prophecy - that is proving the phrase 'Like unto thee' - 'Like You', like Moses'. The Prophecy is much more than this single phrase which reads as follows:

'I will raise them up a prophet from among their bretheren like unto thee..'

The emphasis is on the words "From among their brethren." Moses and his people, the Jews, are here addressed as a racial entity, as a whole, and as such their brethren would undoubtedly be the Arabs.

Abraham had two wives, Sarah and Hagar. Hagar bore Abraham a son, his first born, '..and Abraham called his son's name, which Hagar bare Ishmael.' (Genesis 16:15). 'And Abraham took Ishmael his son..' (Genesis 17:23). 'And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.' (Genesis 17:25).

Up to the age of thirteen Ishmael was the only son of Abraham, then God grants him another son through Sarah, named Isaac, who was very much the junior to his brother Ishmael.



Arabs and Jews

If Ishmael and Isaac are the sons of the same father Abraham, then they are brothers. And so the children of the one are the bretheren of the children of the other. The children of Isaac are the Jews and the children of Ishmael are the Arabs - so they are bretheren to one another. The Bible affirms: 'And he (Ishmael) shall dwell in the presence of all his bretheren.' (Genesis 16:12). 'And he (Ishmael) died in the presence of all his bretheren." (Genesis 25:18). The children of Isaac are the brethren of the Ishmaelites. In like manner Muhammed is from among the brethren of the Israelites because he was a descendant of Ishmael the son of Abraham. This exactly as the prophecy has it - "From among their bretheren" (Deut.18:18).

There the prophecy distinctly mentions that the coming prophet who would be like Moses, must arise not from the Children of Israel nor from among themselves, but from among their brethren. Muhammed therefore was among their bretheren!



Words in the Mouth

The prophecy proceeds further: '..And I will put my words into his mouth..' What does it mean when it is said 'I will put my words in your mouth'? You see, when I asked you (the Dominee) to open Deuteronomy chapter 18, verse 18, at the beginning, and if I had asked you to read, and if you had read, would I be putting my words into your mouth? The Dominee answered: "No." But, I continued: "If I were to teach you a language like Arabic, about which you have no knowledge, and if I asked you to read or repeat after me what I utter i.e. "Say: 'He is Allah the One and Only; Allah, the eternal absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; and there is none like unto Him.' (the Holy Quran 112:1-4) (I read them in Arabic). Would I not be putting these unheard words of a foreign tongue which you utter, into your mouth?" The Dominee agreed that it was indeed so. "In an identical manner", I said: "The words of the Holy Quran, the Revelation vouchsafed by the Almighty God to Muhammed, were revealed.

History tells us that when Muhammed was forty years of age he was in a cave some three miles north of the City of Mecca. In the cave the Archangel Gabriel commands him in his mother tongue: 'Eqra!', which means 'Read!', or 'Recite!' Muhammed was terrified, and in his bewilderment replied that he was not learned!. The angel commands him a second time with the same result. For the third time the angel continues. Now Muhammed, grasps that what was required of him was to repeat! to rehearse! And he repeats the words as they were put into his mouth:

'Read! In the Name of the Lord and Charisher, Who Created. Created man from a (mere) clot of congealed blood: Read! and thy Lord is the Most Bountiful, He Who taught (the use of) the pen, taught man that which he new not". (the Holy Quran 96:1-5).

These are the first five verses which were revealed to Muhammed, which now occupy the beginning of the 96th chapter of the Holy Quran.

Unlettered Prophet

Muhammed's experience in the Cave of Hira, and his response to that first Revelation is the exact fulfillment of another Biblical Prophecy. In the Book of Isaiah, chapter 29, verse 12, we read: 'And the Book is delivered to him that is not learned' (Isaiah 29:12). 'The Unlettered prophet' (the Holy Quran 7:158). And the Biblical verse continues: 'Saying, read this, I pray thee:' 'And he saith, I am not learned.'. 'I am not learned.' is the exact translation of the Arabic words which Muhammed uttered twice to the Holy Spirit, the Archangel Gabriel, when he was commanded: 'Read!').

Let me quote the verse in full without a break as found in the King James Version, or the Authorised Version as it is more popularly know: 'And the Book is delivered to him that is no learned, saying: 'Read this I pray thee'. And he saith: 'I am not learned.' ' (Isaiah 29:12).



Important note : It may be noted that there were no Arabic Bibles in existence in the 6th century of the Christian Era when Muhammed lived and preached. Besides, he was absolutely unlettered and unlearned. He never knew how to read and write Arabic, his own language, let alone knowing a completely different one.

'He does not speak (aught) of (his own) desire: It is no less than inspiration sent down to him. He was taught by One Mighty in Power' (the Holy Quran 53:3-5).

Without any human learning, 'he put to shame the wisdom of the learned'.



Grave Warning

"See!" I told the Dominee, "how the prophecies fit Muhammed like a glove. We do not have to stretch prophecies to justify their fulfillment in Muhammed." The Dominee replied, "All your expositions sound very well, but they are of no real consequence, because we Christians have Jesus Christ the incarnate God, who has redeemed us from the Bondage of Sin!" I asked: "Not important? God didn't think so! He had His warnings recorded in the scriptures. God knew that there would be people like you who will light-heartedly discount His words, so He followed up Deuteronomy 18:18 with a dare warning:

'And it shall come to pass (it is going to happen), that whosoever will not hearken unto My words which he shall speak in My Name, I will require if of him.'

(In the Catholic Bible the ending words are 'I will be the revenger', 'I will take revenge!'). "Does not this terrify you? God Almighty is threatening revenge! We shake in our pants if some hoodlum threatens us, yet you have no fear of God's warning?"

Miracle of Miracles! in the verse 19 of Deuteronomy chapter 18, we have a further fulfillment of the prophecy in Muhammed! Note the words '..My words which he shall speak in My Name'. In whose name is Muhammed speaking?" I opened Yusuf Ali's translation of the Holy Quran, at chapter 114, Surat An-Nas, or The Chapter of Mankind, the last chapter of the Quran, and showed him the formula at the head of the chapter, and the meaning:

'In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful'.

And the heading of chapter 113, and the meaning: 'In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful'. And every chapter downwards 112, 111, 110,..was the same formula and the same meaning on every page, because the end surahs (chapters) are short and take about a page each. And what did the prophecy demand? '..Which he shall speak in My Name'; and in whose name does Muhammed speak? In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

The Prophecy is being fulfilled in Muhammed to the letter; every chapter of the Holy Quran except the 9th begin with the formula: 'In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful'. The Muslim begins his every lawful act with the Holy formula. But the Christian begins: 'In the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.'

Concerning Deuteronomy chapter eighteen, I have given you more than 15 reasons as to how this prophecy refers to Muhammed and not to Jesus.



Baptist Contradicts Jesus

In New Testament times, we find that the Jews were still expecting the fulfillment of the prophecy of One like Moses, refer John 1:19-25.

When Jesus claimed to be the Messiah of the Jews, the Jews began to esquire as to where was Elias? The Jews had a parallel prophecy that before the coming of the Messiah, Elias must come first in his second coming. Jesus confirms this Jewish belief:

"Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. But I say unto you, that Elias is come already, and they knew him not,.. then the Disciples understood that he spoke unto them of John the Baptist." (Mathew 17:11-13).

According to the New Testament the Jews were not the ones to swallow the words of any would-be Messiah. In their investigations they underwent intense difficulties in order to find their true Messiah. And this the Gospel of John confirms: "And this is the record of John (the Baptist), when the Jews sent priests and levites from Jerusalem to ask him, 'Who art thou?', and he confessed and denied not; but confessed, 'I am not the Christ' " (This was only natural because there can't be two Messiahs at the same time. If Jesus was the Christ then John couldn't be the Christ!) "And they asked him: 'What then? Art thou Elias?' And he saith: 'I am not' " Here John the Baptist contradicts Jesus! Jesus says that John is Elias and John denies that he is what Jesus ascribes him to be. One of the two (Jesus or John), God forbid!, is definitely not speaking the truth!

On the testimony of Jesus himself, John the Baptist was the greatest of the Israelite prophets: "Verily I say unto you, among them that are born of women, there has not risen a greater than John the Baptist" (Matthew 11:11).

We Muslims know John the Baptist as Yahya. We revere him as a true prophet of Allah. The Holy Prophet Jesus known to us as Eesa, is also esteemed as one of the mightiest messenger of the Almighty. How can we Muslims impute lies to either of them? We leave this problem between Jesus and John for the Christians to solve, for their "Sacred Scriptures abound in discrepancies which they have been glossing over as the 'dark sayings of Jesus' " (See the Times Magazine December 30th, 1974, article How true is the Bible?).

We Muslims are really interested in the last questions posed to John the Baptist by the Jewish elite - Art thou that prophet? And he answered, "No."(John 1:21).



Three Questions!

Please note that three different and distinct questions were posed to John the Baptist, and to which he gave three emphatic No's as answers. To recapitulate:

"Art thou the Christ?"

"Art thou Elias ?"

"Art thou that Prophet?"

But the learned men of Christendom somehow only see two questions implied here. To make doubly clear that the Jews definitely had three separate prophecies in their minds when they were interrogating John the Baptist. Let us read the remonstrance of the Jews in the verses following:

"And they asked him, and said unto him: 'Why baptizest thou then, if

thou be not that Christ..

nor Elias..

neither that Prophet ?' "

(John 1:25).

The Jews were waiting for the fulfillment of three distinct prophecies: a. the coming of Christ. b. the coming of Elias, and c. the coming of that Prophet.



"That Prophet"

If we look up any Bible which has a concordance or cross-references, then we will find in the marginal note where the words the Prophet, or that Prophet occur in John 1:25, that these words refer to the prophecy of Deuteronomy 18:15 and 18. And that that Prophet - the Prophet like Moses - "Like unto thee", we have proved through overwhelming evidence that he was Muhammed and not Jesus!

Muslims are not denying that Jesus was the Messiah, which word is translated as Christ. We are not contesting the Thousand and One Prophecies which the Christians claim abound in the Old Testament foretelling the coming of the Messiah. What we say is that Deuteronomy 18:18 does not refer to Jesus Christ but it is an explicit prophecy about the prophet Muhammed!."

The Dominee, very politely parted with me by saying that it was a very interesting discussion and he would like me very much to come one day and address his congregation on the subject. A decade and half has passed since then but I am still awaiting that privilege.

I believe the Dominee was sincere when he made the offer, but prejudices die hard, and who would like to loose his sheep?



The Acid Test

To the Lambs of Christ I say, why not apply that acid test which the Master himself wanted you to apply to any would be claimant to prophethood? He had said:

"By their fruits ye shall know them. Do men gather grapes from the thorns, of figs from the thistles? Every good tree will bear good fruit and every evil tree will bear evil fruit... By their fruits ye shall know them". (Mathew 7:16-20).

Why are you afraid to apply this test to the teachings of Muhammed? You will find in the Last Testament of God, the Holy Quran, the true fulfillment of the teachings of Moses and Jesus which will bring to the world the much needed peace and happiness. George Bernard Shaw was quoted as saying:

"If a man like Muhammed were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world, he would succeed in solving its problems that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness."

The weekly news magazine Time dated July 15, 1974, carried a selection of opinions by various historians, writers, military men, businessmen an others on the subject: "Who were History's Great Leaders?" Some said that it was Hitler; others said Gandhi, Buddha, Lincoln and the like. But Jules Masserman, a United States psychoanalyst, put the standards straight by giving the correct criteria wherewith to judge. He said: "Leaders must fulfill three functions:

Provide for the well-being of the led,

Provide a social organization in which people feel relatively secure, and

Provide them with one set of beliefs."

With the above three criteria he searches history and analyses Hitler, Pasteur, Gaesar, Moses, Confucius and the lot, and ultimately concludes: "People like Pasteur and Salk are leaders in the first sense. People like Ghandi and Confucius, on one hand, and Alexander, Caesar, and Hitler on the other, are leaders in the second, and perhaps the third sense. Jesus and Buddha belong in the third category alone. Perhaps the greatest leader of all times was Muhammed, who combined all three functions. To a lesser degree, Moses did the same."

According to the objective standards set by the professor of the Chicago University, Jesus and Buddha are nowhere in the picture of the "Great Leaders of Mankind", but by a queer coincidence groups Moses and Muhammed together, thus adding further weight to the argument that Jesus is not like Moses, but Muhammed is like Moses. Deut 18:18 "Like unto thee", like Moses!

In conclusion, I end with a quotation of a Christian Reverend the commentator of the Bible, followed by that of his Master:

"The ultimate criterion of a true prophet is the moral character of his teaching." (Prof. Dummelow).

"By their fruits ye shall know them." (Jesus Christ)

A concluding suggestion : come let us reason together!

"Say: 'O People of the Book! Come to common terms as between us and you: that we worship none but Allah (God); that we associate no partners with him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, lords and patrons other than Allah (God)'. If then they turn back, say: 'Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (Bowing to God's Will).' " (the Holy Quran 3:64)

People of the Book is the respectful title given to the Jews and the Christians in the Holy Quran. The Muslims are here commanded to invite, O People of the Book!, O Learned People!, O People who claim to be the recipients of Divine Revelation, of a Holy Scripture; let us gather together onto a common platform, "that we worship none but Allah (God)", because none but God is worthy of worship, not because "The Lord thy God is a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me." (Exodus 20:25). But because He is our Lord and Cherisher, our Sustainer and Evolver, worthy of all praise, prayer and devotion.

In the abstract the Jews and the Christians would agree to all the three propositions contained in this Quranic verse. In practice they fail. Apart from doctrinal lapses from the unity of the One True God, Allah, may He be praised, there is the question of a consecrated Priesthood (among the Jews it was hereditary also), as if a mere human being - Cohen or Pope, or Priest, or Brahuman, - could claim superiority apart from his learning and the purity of his life, or could stand between man and God in some special sense. Islam does not recognize priesthood!.

The Creed of Islam is given to us here in a nutshell from Holy Quran:

"Say ye: 'We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes (of the Children of Israel), And that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) Prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to Allah (in Islam).' " (the Holy Quran 2:136).

The Muslim position is clear. The Muslim does not claim to have a religion peculiar to himself. Islam is not a sect or an ethnic religion. In its view all religion is one, for the Truth is one:

"It was the same religion preached by all the earlier prophets." (the Holy Quran 42:13).

It was the truth taught by all the inspired Books. In essence it amounts to a consciousness of the Will and Plan of God and a joyful submission to that Will and Plan. If anyone wants a religion other than that, he is false to his own nature, as he is false to God's Will and Plan. Such a one cannot expect guidance, for he has deliberately renounced guidance.

(I hope that you manage to read this post and the entire article and please understand that even the Bible has predicted the coming of Muhammed, you should read the Qur'an http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/

Understand that this could very well be God attempting to continue to guide you further on the right path, to close your heart and turn away would be a mistake.

Or it may be Satan, attempting to Tempt you off the path by stating that God is One with no Children and that God is far beyond having children, and that you should pray and worship God throughout the day and do right and give charity...that definately sounds like the message of Satan doesn't it?

Please read this entire post, please respond to me, and please don't close your heart, your eyes, your ears, to the message, read the Qur'an, it can't harm you, read it in full and listen to its words, see if they can penetrate your heart, this is not going to REMOVE your Faith this is going to INCREASE IT and put you on a straighter path.

Peace be unto you, I hope you get a chance to read all this soon.

Stop copying and pasting if you expect serious responses. I don't give a shit what some site says. If you can't handle intelligent debate on your own, then don't partake.

Repost without any copy and pastes.

quote:Originally posted by napoleon_complex:

Stop copying and pasting if you expect serious responses. I don't give a shit what some site says. If you can't handle intelligent debate on your own, then don't partake.

Repost without any copy and pastes.

The above post is full of information and worth reading if you can muster the patience.

Can anyone take the time to read my long post above? It is jam packed with information!

...anybody? *echo echo echo*

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

Can anyone take the time to read my long post above? It is jam packed with information!

...anybody? *echo echo echo*

Napoleon's right. All you ever do is copy and paste stuff from other sites.

quote:Originally posted by Dre Crabbe:

Napoleon's right. All you ever do is copy and paste stuff from other sites.

I wrote stuff too! It's all just writing! Won't anyone read it! Anyone!? *echo*