The God of Judeo-Christian-Muslimese-Whatevertarianism is not omnipotent. Your God doesn't plan out everything. He doesn't say, "Today, why don't I strike down the cities of Sodom and Gemorah and OH! Tomorrow, why don't I impreginate some chick and have my son (who is in fact me as part of the Holy Trinity BTW) negate everything I've said and die so a some 100,000 people may join me in Heaven even though I wish for everyone to bask in my love! It will be sublime!" This is quite a naive thought. People might say if I can do it than God it's because God lets it happen and therefore must be part of his divine plan. This is no better than saying, "If it can be done, Allah wills it and it is thusly just. Assholes like this take no responsibility for their actions and acknowlede no responsibility of others. It's ridiculous.

Even though God is seen as being omnipotent by most, God is a changed concept. This is becuase God is a portrayal of the cultures of the societies we live in. God's different motives, ideas, actions, plans, and everything changes and so it's hard to call him omnipotent if he has plans, can't or won't carry them out, then changes plans, still won't or carry them out and just sits on his ass all day smiting infidels. I know what I say isn't very coherent but there is a point and that point is that God is ultimately what we make of him.

quote:Originally posted by niggersexual:

The God of Judeo-Christian-Muslimese-Whatevertarianism is not omnipotent. Your God doesn't plan out everything. He doesn't say, "Today, why don't I strike down the cities of Sodom and Gemorah and OH! Tomorrow, why don't I impreginate some chick and have my son (who is in fact me as part of the Holy Trinity BTW) negate everything I've said and die so a some 100,000 people may join me in Heaven even though I wish for everyone to bask in my love! It will be sublime!" This is quite a naive thought. People might say if I can do it than God it's because God lets it happen and therefore must be part of his divine plan. This is no better than saying, "If it can be done, Allah wills it and it is thusly just. Assholes like this take no responsibility for their actions and acknowlede no responsibility of others. It's ridiculous.

Even though God is seen as being omnipotent by most, God is a changed concept. This is becuase God is a portrayal of the cultures of the societies we live in. God's different motives, ideas, actions, plans, and everything changes and so it's hard to call him omnipotent if he has plans, can't or won't carry them out, then changes plans, still won't or carry them out and just sits on his ass all day smiting infidels. I know what I say isn't very coherent but there is a point and that point is that God is ultimately what we make of him.

om·nip·o·tent ( P ) Pronunciation Key (m-np-tnt)

adj.

Having unlimited or universal power, authority, or force; all-powerful.

How would you know? Not that I believe in it myself but you have no proof. So your post is useless and just restates previous arguments. Stop wasting all our time and GTFO

I don't think the OP had that good of an argument against the omnipotence of the Judeo-Christian god.

iggie

quote:Originally posted by Moridin:

How would you know? Not that I believe in it myself but you have no proof. So your post is useless and just restates previous arguments. Stop wasting all our time and GTFO

neither do you. the thing is, there is no proof. it is just a philosophical idea using logic to debunk another philosophical idea(god).

quote:Originally posted by Merlinman2005:

I don't think the OP had that good of an argument against the omnipotence of the Judeo-Christian god.

iggie

Then how about this:

Suffering exsists.

That's the only argument you need against a loving omnipotent being. He could easily take away pain, anguish, suffering, anything that is bad in the world could just go away. "But He wanted to allow us to have free will". Doesn't matter all powerful, meaning he can do anything. He could control how people act, while still allowing people to have free will.

I've heard the argument before that He doesn't want to force us, but wants to let us make our own choices. It's kinda like taking an ice cube outside in the summer and telling it not to melt. You have the power to put it back in your freezer and save it, but instead you will just stand there and tell it it's doing it wrong.

The christian god is flawed, yes we know. That's how most intelligent persons come to the conclusion that he is a fictional figure.

Could God make a pizza so big even he couldn't eat it? I've always wondered what the right solution to this riddle is.

quote:Originally posted by NewRage:

Then how about this:

Suffering exsists.

That's the only argument you need against a loving omnipotent being. He could easily take away pain, anguish, suffering, anything that is bad in the world could just go away. "But He wanted to allow us to have free will". Doesn't matter all powerful, meaning he can do anything. He could control how people act, while still allowing people to have free will.

I've heard the argument before that He doesn't want to force us, but wants to let us make our own choices. It's kinda like taking an ice cube outside in the summer and telling it not to melt. You have the power to put it back in your freezer and save it, but instead you will just stand there and tell it it's doing it wrong.

Do you remember why suffering exists?

Eve.

He gave them the choice to listen, follow, or not. They didn't.

Whether or not He knew what they'd choose doesn't matter either. He HAD to give them that choice, present the option. He never forced their hand.

If he never gave the choice, we'd be robots, following his laws, but not able to reach a point where we could even deviate from this.

quote:Originally posted by Merlinman2005:

what they'd choose doesn't matter either. He HAD to give them that choice, present the option.

No he didn't. He is omnipotent, which means he doesn't HAVE to do anything. Like he said, he could have made it so that we wouldn't not be robots while still making us do good only, however illogical that may seem. He's omnipotent.

quote:He never forced their hand.

If he knew the future, then he most certainly did. If you still don't think so, then by all means resurrect one of the numerous threads dealing with the issue.

I know. We've argued before.

But still.

He knew that they would choose it. It's not the same as making them choose it.

You can say He could have made a different universe, but He didn't, because this is the one He decided on.

quote:Originally posted by Merlinman2005:

I know. We've argued before.

But still.

He knew that they would choose it. It's not the same as making them choose it.

You can say He could have made a different universe, but He didn't, because this is the one He decided on."

I don't believe this is the only Universe.

quote:Originally posted by Merlinman2005:

I know. We've argued before.

But still.

He knew that they would choose it. It's not the same as making them choose it.

It's the same thing if they ultimately cannot change their mind, which they cannot if he knew the future beforehand.



quote:

You can say He could have made a different universe, but He didn't, because this is the one He decided on.

I don't know why you're stating the obvious.

It's the fact that he doesn't change this current one, when he could certainly do so if he were actually omnipotent, that is the problem.

I know that he could have made a different universe; that's precisely the essence of the argument!





[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 08-16-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

I don't know why you're stating the obvious.

It's the fact that he doesn't change this current one, when he could certainly do so, if he were actually omnipotent.



Certainly an All Powerful can Change whatsoever it wishes. Certainly, if an All Powerful exists, it chooses not to change the current Universe.

Christians might have to drop the "All Loving" thing.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

om·nip·o·tent ( P ) Pronunciation Key (m-np-tnt)

adj.

Having unlimited or universal power, authority, or force; all-powerful.



I know what omnipotent. As in the words omne and potens. Basically, you can disregard everything that my main point was that God is ultimately what you make him out to be.

quote:Originally posted by niggersexual:

I know what omnipotent. As in the words omne and potens. Basically, you can disregard everything that my main point was that God is ultimately what you make him out to be.

I agree but I don't know how safe it is to disregard God as a concept entirely. In other words, if Judgement Day is the truth then it would be a mistake to disregard God as it would lead to a horrible punishment.

Scientologists at the highest levels believe that the Marcabians are an alien force which by the help of Xenu has implanted the concept of God into humans through thetans. Marcabians are the Angels as seen in the book of revelation.

Angels are Extra Terrestrial.

ex·tra·ter·res·tri·al ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kstr-t-rstr-l)

adj.

Originating, located, or occurring outside Earth or its atmosphere: intelligent extraterrestrial life.

n.

An extraterrestrial being or life form.

I know it might be going off topic a little bit but I think that if they exist they are beings to be feared as they are the primary force which assists in the execution of judgement day.

I'm basically proposing the looney idea that Judgement Day and Revelation may exist and throwing it away as man's silly ideas might be a fatal mistake if what the revelations say is true.

Angels seem to work in conjunction with the Will of this God, the Ultimate Reality which encompasses all things and all things depend on it in order to exist, thus making it the All Powerful Controller of everything.

Whatever the case, if Angels do Exist they are Extraterrestrial, as in not bound to Earth, and are the enforcers of punishment brought by God.

Scientologists consider them alien beings from a distant galaxy who will attempt to conquer Earth, Scientologists hope to wage total war with them and hopefully win, thus averting Judgement Day.

If these beings are as powerful as they claim, no one can fight them, the only way to win is to, as they say, Submit to God and do right and all that jazz. Those who disbelieve will be punished horribly.

Some say "Well Who wants to believe in a God who would punish people" without considering that there may be a force that wishes us to worship this God and will punish us if we don't love not included in the equation nor it being a wise choice, if what they say is true, to ignore their warnings.

What do you think? All just hokey superstition or there may be these Extra Terrestrial beings who enforce the law of God?

i realised last night that my nickname has a context which explains an omnipotent being's perspective on humanity, i.e; it can look at us but we can't look at it.

quote:Originally posted by One_way_mirror:

i realised last night that my nickname has a context which explains an omnipotent being's perspective on humanity, i.e; it can look at us but we can't look at it.



Awesome!

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

I agree but I don't know how safe it is to disregard God as a concept entirely. In other words, if Judgement Day is the truth then it would be a mistake to disregard God as it would lead to a horrible punishment.

Scientologists at the highest levels believe that the Marcabians are an alien force which by the help of Xenu has implanted the concept of God into humans through thetans. Marcabians are the Angels as seen in the book of revelation.

Angels are Extra Terrestrial.

ex·tra·ter·res·tri·al ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kstr-t-rstr-l)

adj.

Originating, located, or occurring outside Earth or its atmosphere: intelligent extraterrestrial life.

n.

An extraterrestrial being or life form.

I know it might be going off topic a little bit but I think that if they exist they are beings to be feared as they are the primary force which assists in the execution of judgement day.

I'm basically proposing the looney idea that Judgement Day and Revelation may exist and throwing it away as man's silly ideas might be a fatal mistake if what the revelations say is true.

Angels seem to work in conjunction with the Will of this God, the Ultimate Reality which encompasses all things and all things depend on it in order to exist, thus making it the All Powerful Controller of everything.

Whatever the case, if Angels do Exist they are Extraterrestrial, as in not bound to Earth, and are the enforcers of punishment brought by God.

Scientologists consider them alien beings from a distant galaxy who will attempt to conquer Earth, Scientologists hope to wage total war with them and hopefully win, thus averting Judgement Day.

If these beings are as powerful as they claim, no one can fight them, the only way to win is to, as they say, Submit to God and do right and all that jazz. Those who disbelieve will be punished horribly.

Some say "Well Who wants to believe in a God who would punish people" without considering that there may be a force that wishes us to worship this God and will punish us if we don't love not included in the equation nor it being a wise choice, if what they say is true, to ignore their warnings.

What do you think? All just hokey superstition or there may be these Extra Terrestrial beings who enforce the law of God?

So if a big fuck off invasion fleet suddenly came down from the sky claiming to be god and his merry band of angels, you think that we should say ok, becuase they have the power to wipe us off the face of the planet?

Wow! Assuming that we can never see evidence for God negates any reason for belief in him!

Awesome!

quote:Originally posted by Source:

So if a big fuck off invasion fleet suddenly came down from the sky claiming to be god and his merry band of angels, you think that we should say ok, becuase they have the power to wipe us off the face of the planet?

If what they say is true, we're screwed if we don't submit.