Well my grandparents are extremely religious people and constantly telling me if I don't do the right shit and don't go to church and stuff, I'll be going to hell. And they do tell me to go to church and its torture on me. How do I tell them that I don't believe in that entire Christan bullshit and I'm an athiest and I want to live my life free of worry, without them feeling a grudge and telling me I'm going to Hell even MORE. I just can't stand the force christianity and stuff. I'm thinking of Paganism, as nature is one of the most interesting things and the Fibonacci sequence. They took a large portion of my music, which consists mostly of heavy metal and progressive and BURNED IT. They're now wanting me to cut my metalhead hair http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif). And trying to make me listen to gospel shit. I REALLY need advice.



[This message has been edited by Gackt (edited 08-16-2006).]

hahahaha, burn their gospel shit

but seriously, i dunno how old you are, but tell them that you are old enough to choose your own religion and that they cant tell you what to do... if that doesnt work which it wont, then just dont worry, they might get used to it or they might not, it doesnt matter

"My soul is my own. You shouldn't make me believe in God because, if you do, I won't really believe in him at all; I'll just be making you happy. I'll still go to Hell. I have to believe in Him on my own for it to do me any good. Please, let me get there on my own."

Worked for me. Maybe it'll work for you.

Do you live with your grandparents? Are your actual parents as religious as she is if you do not live with them? Are you financially independent?

My suggestion is if you're old enough is to at least get a job in case they cut off your college fund/kick you out of the house as soon as you are 18 to spite your newfound stance. Believe me, I thought my parents wouldn't do it based on such specious reasoning but they did. I was homeless for a couple of days until I found a roommate.



[This message has been edited by Zinkovich (edited 08-16-2006).]

Introduce them to the intellectualism and explain how it is completely irrational of them to think that you can just choose to believe in their faith. If they want to save you, they must logically convince you of the validity of what they offer, which they of course cannot.

Just don't do anything that might rule you out of inheritance money.

They burned your records and now they're on the verge of cutting your hair, and you want to tell them you're an atheist?

Play it smart. Play the part of a good little Christian boy and try to get them to believe that you can still have faith and love for God and all that bullshit, and still like a particular style of music and dress.

There's no way in hell you're going to be doing yourself any favors by telling them the truth.

I agree, play it smart and milk them dry.

Do they live with you? How did they burn your stuff?

quote:Originally posted by Boblong

How did they burn your stuff?

I was gonna ask that myself. I think that part was added for effect. I don't see this nice elderly couple lookin' like Ma and Pa Kettle pourin' gasoline on a pile of Ozzy Ozbourne and Judas Priest LPs in a pile in the backyard and throwing a match on them, chanting, "burn, devil, burn!".

quote:Originally posted by Martini:

Originally posted by Boblong

How did they burn your stuff?

I was gonna ask that myself. I think that part was added for effect. I don't see this nice elderly couple lookin' like Ma and Pa Kettle pourin' gasoline on a pile of Ozzy Ozbourne and Judas Priest LPs in a pile in the backyard and throwing a match on them, chanting, "burn, devil, burn!".

They just have to watch the Ozzy Ozbourne show to know he harmless, not in league with the devil but rather the spirit of utter confusion and mumbling. "Wah appenin' ohhhhh weh i oghaoha"

quote:Originally posted by Gackt:

They took a large portion of my music, which consists mostly of heavy metal and progressive and BURNED IT.

Those jerks just wanted to burn it so they could listen to it themselves. Copyright Hijackers!

My advice to you is thus: Respect your elders.

I'm not saying you should become a christian or buy into what they're telling you and I'm sure they wont actually force you to cut your hair. But, you should smile and nod and try to put on a good face for your grandparents. They're just trying to show that they care about you, as annoying as it is.

I mean, it's not impossible for you to listen to their advice respectfully and still think it's bullshit. A lot of people don't have anyone who cares that much about them. And it sucks that they burnt your shit. That's pretty over the top. But, I guess my only advice for that is to hide your things from them, which sucks, but what can you do, they're your grandparents.

Edit: Anyone who lives with their grandparents isn't hardcore enough to pull off metal hair. Even most actual heavy metal musicians look like shit with "metal hair". They're probably doing you a favor.

Cheers,

Lost

[This message has been edited by LostCause (edited 08-16-2006).]

quote:"I agree, play it smart and milk them dry."

Quoted For Truth. You can't fight them right now and win. Play it safe, play it smart. Go along with their intolerant bullshit and take them for every penny. When you're no longer dependant on them in any way, tell them what you think of their religion.

quote:"My advice to you is thus: Respect your elders."

Respect must be earned; and the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Clearly, you've never had to deal with religiously psychotic family members.

Thats fucked up and i agree with the others of not telling them. play along and when they are on their death bed say "fuck your god, i never believed in him in the first place." that would be some poetic justice if they had a heart attack on the spot.

Take their advice on cutting your hair. Why worry old people if you don't have to? You might kill them if you tell them you're atheist so just leave it be.

It's things like this that piss me off and make me glad I'm an atheist. The whole basis that religion is built on is fear!

"Don't do this you'll go to hell!"

"Follow my faith or, I'll disown, cut you off and kick you out of my house!"

"If you don't believe in God, but you still lead a good life, guess what...? You'll still go to hell for refusing to believe!"

I don't care what the church or the followers of religion say, It's still wrong!

quote:Originally posted by Albatross:

Quoted For Truth. You can't fight them right now and win. Play it safe, play it smart. Go along with their intolerant bullshit and take them for every penny. When you're no longer dependant on them in any way, tell them what you think of their religion.

"My advice to you is thus: Respect your elders."

Respect must be earned; and the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Clearly, you've never had to deal with religiously psychotic family members.

I liked what Lost Cause said and this "respect earned" stuff is true but not very nice sounding.

quote:"I liked what Lost Cause said and this "respect earned" stuff is true but not very nice sounding."

Hey man, I never said the truth was "nice". The truth of the matter is that his grandparents are a pair of religious fanatics; that is not (nor should it ever have been) a respectable position.

my grandma is the same way. she doesn't know i am buddhist. i never told her. i just don't do anything to suggest my religous beliefs. i just play dumb, i say ok.

quote:Originally posted by Albatross:



Respect must be earned; and the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Clearly, you've never had to deal with religiously psychotic family members.

Incorrect. You may not like it, but you have to respect the police officer or else he will bust you. You can smile and nod and not get a ticket or you can mouth off like an ignorant child and spend a night in the tank.

Respect does not always need to be earned. Your grandparents do not need to earn your respect, you are the one who needs to earn their respect. They've already done they're part. You're their grandchild, who they are helping raise, which is worthy of respect on it's own.

And what do you care about their road to hell if you're Atheist? Stop trying to get them to feel bad about what they do just trying to help you, it's really immature. And moreover, I have had to deal with very overly religious fanatics in my family. My cousin, who is my age, and who was raised as my twin basically suddenly became a super christian a few years ago and has now married a minister. Meanwhile my godparents became Zionists and my godfather got arrested for conspiracy and just got out of Federal prison and now they've moved to Tel Aviv to "fight the good fight against the Palestinians".

I have it on all sides and it's continuously shoved down my throat. But, the difference is that I don't feel my beliefs are threatened by theirs, and if the people who love me and who I love want to impart something on me that makes them feel better and might make me feel better I say more power to them. That doesn't mean I'm going to agree with them, but I think it's beautiful when someone can have that much faith in something they can't prove. I see no reason to be cruel to them about it just because I don't get it.

Cheers,

Lost

quote:Originally posted by LostCause:





Dependant on someone? Show them respect.

[This message has been edited by Abrahim (edited 08-16-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by LostCause:

Incorrect. You may not like it, but you have to respect the police officer or else he will bust you. You can smile and nod and not get a ticket or you can mouth off like an ignorant child and spend a night in the tank.

Respect does not always need to be earned. Your grandparents do not need to earn your respect, you are the one who needs to earn their respect. They've already done they're part. You're their grandchild, who they are helping raise, which is worthy of respect on it's own.





Wrong, wrong, all wrong.

There is a massive difference between respect and courtesy. You must be courteous to a police officer or you will be in trouble, but you do not have to hold any feelings of respect for him.

quote:Originally posted by PerpetualBurn:



Wrong, wrong, all wrong.

There is a massive difference between respect and courtesy. You must be courteous to a police officer or you will be in trouble, but you do not have to hold any feelings of respect for him.

It is a difference in terms, we are not saying you must respect the old folks as in admire them, but rather you should show them respect, be kind to them, show them courtesy and respect.

re·spect ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-spkt)

tr.v. re·spect·ed, re·spect·ing, re·spects

To avoid violation of or interference with: respect the speed limit.

n.

A feeling of appreciative, often deferential regard; esteem. See Synonyms at regard.

Willingness to show consideration or appreciation.

respects Polite expressions of consideration or deference: pay one's respects.

courtesy

n 1: a courteous or respectful or considerate act 2: a courteous or respectful or considerate remark 3: a courteous manner [syn: good manners] [ant: discourtesy]

You don't have to hold someone in high esteem just because they were born before you were.

You should still be polite.

So no, you don't have to respect policemen, elders, or anyone else that hasn't earned it.

Respect is clearly more than just simply being polite, and that contentious dictionary definition just agrees with me.

Milk em dry.

quote:"Incorrect. You may not like it, but you have to respect the police officer or else he will bust you. You can smile and nod and not get a ticket or you can mouth off like an ignorant child and spend a night in the tank."

Others have already eloquently covered why this is completely wrong.

quote:"Respect does not always need to be earned. Your grandparents do not need to earn your respect, you are the one who needs to earn their respect. They've already done they're part. You're their grandchild, who they are helping raise, which is worthy of respect on it's own."

If they're doing a shit job raising you (which involves much more than simply feeding you and giving you a place to sleep) then they are NOT worthy of respect. Simply because someone is old does not automatically qualify them worthy of anybody's respect.

As for earning *their* respect; the only reason the OP should be worried about that is because he is dependant on them to survive right now. Appearently to earn their respect, one has to be fucking insane. That is not acceptable.

quote:"And what do you care about their road to hell if you're Atheist? Stop trying to get them to feel bad about what they do just trying to help you, it's really immature."

You appear to be a fucking moron; just because they "mean well" does not mean the OP should have to put up with their totally illogical and offensive behaviour. Religiousness is not an excuse for crappy behaviour; especially when so often it's the very CAUSE of that behaviour.

quote:"And moreover, I have had to deal with very overly religious fanatics in my family. My cousin, who is my age, and who was raised as my twin basically suddenly became a super christian a few years ago and has now married a minister. Meanwhile my godparents became Zionists and my godfather got arrested for conspiracy and just got out of Federal prison and now they've moved to Tel Aviv to "fight the good fight against the Palestinians"."

How unfortunate, but:

quote:"I have it on all sides and it's continuously shoved down my throat. But, the difference is that I don't feel my beliefs are threatened by theirs, and if the people who love me and who I love want to impart something on me that makes them feel better and might make me feel better I say more power to them."

Except it's not being forced on you, asshole. Maybe at one time it was and you buckled down and made it through; I don't know. The OP doesn't have the option of shrugging it off while going "Wow, good for you! Thanks!"

quote:"That doesn't mean I'm going to agree with them, but I think it's beautiful when someone can have that much faith in something they can't prove."

That right there is the problem. Having that kind of "faith" is not a good thing. It's a weakness, and in this case it's royally screwing the OP over. His grandparents are being cruel and intolerant. What about the beauty of seeing through all the bullshit? Why can't his grandparents accept that for what it is? The only reason his believes must be compromises is because he's overpowered and outnumbered; which is precisely how religious fucks control everything everywhere else.

quote:"I see no reason to be cruel to them about it just because I don't get it."

*They* are being cruel to *him*. Again, religiousness is not something inherently respectable and it is NOT an excuse for offensive and equally unrespectable behaviour. There is no beauty in going "I believe it so it MUST be true, and you have to believe it too!" Especially when there's an "Or Else" attached, as is so often the case.

Just tell them to stop being such assholes.

"If Christ wanted me to believe in him he would tell me."

Gorloche had the best advice in this entire thread.

^Besides my advise. Learn Karate!

quote:Originally posted by AngryFemme:

Gorloche had the best advice in this entire thread.

According to the description of the Grandparents and their tendency towards extremes I don't think the dialogue would result in a positive outcome.

Just tell them the truth.

I was very afraid of telling my family the truth, but I told them one day nevertheless... and everything turned out fine.

They're still forcing me to do RE, though.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

According to the description of the Grandparents and their tendency towards extremes I don't think the dialogue would result in a positive outcome.

All the more reason they could use a good dose of realism from their doting grandson.

quote:Originally posted by AngryFemme:

All the more reason they could use a good dose of realism from their doting grandson.



I'm pretty sure the smell will be of smoke, rather than rationalism. Are you going to be around for a few days? I've got Ian Boyd's story and am adding my chapter, then I'll send it to you.

I never really thought about it when I told my mom that I am atheist, she just sort of ignored the subject, I made it clear how I felt and she's just excepted it.

I think if there is ever going to be a problem it would be if I had kids, because I know she's going to want them christened. And I have different feelings on that subject.



[This message has been edited by Source (edited 08-18-2006).]

Albatros, excuse I haven't responded sooner. I've went back to school this week - it's been busy. But, I wanted to respond because your response made me think of something. To a Christian or anyone from a faith of Abraham, you would be wrong. Respect does not need to be earned. However, if you're an atheist, you make those rules for yourself.

I don't particularily subscribe to any religion. I observe many holidays, but I don't believe in one more than another. I believe all religions are valid, as well as atheism. So, I was thinking - since I'm not religious - why is it that I believe that your elders should be respected naturally due to senority and you believe that no matter the seniority everyone is on an even playing field as a human animal and should have to earn your respect as you earn theirs?

If they're doing a shit job raising you (which involves much more than simply feeding you and giving you a place to sleep) then they are NOT worthy of respect. Simply because someone is old does not automatically qualify them worthy of anybody's respect.

As for earning *their* respect; the only reason the OP should be worried about that is because he is dependant on them to survive right now. Appearently to earn their respect, one has to be fucking insane. That is not acceptable.

Of course the first thought that came to mind was how old are you? And may be your age has nothing to do with it, but when I was younger I felt much like that. I believed that people need to earn my respect no matter their seniority. When I got older, though, and began working in an adult world, educating yourself, working your job, paying bills, maintaining interpersonal relationships, etc... that nomatter how you like it some people simply have seniority.

That doesn't mean you have to respect them for their seniority, but you're looking at a hard road ahead of you, because life is rough and everybody fucks up even your elders. But, I believe seniority earns you the benefit of the doubt, myself.

You appear to be a fucking moron; just because they "mean well" does not mean the OP should have to put up with their totally illogical and offensive behaviour. Religiousness is not an excuse for crappy behaviour; especially when so often it's the very CAUSE of that behaviour.

You know, what he described did not sound like outright child abuse to me. Niether one of us has any frame of reference to the story and all they're doing is being silly and preachy to him and not letting him listen to certain music and making him cut his hair. May be they're old and get headaches from the music, may be they want him to get a job and that's why they want him to cut his hair, or something like that. It's not like they're beating him, or starving him, or telling him he's worthless or anything. They're really not asking that much of him and he's completely capable of smiling and nodding through this..

Except it's not being forced on you, asshole. Maybe at one time it was and you buckled down and made it through; I don't know. The OP doesn't have the option of shrugging it off while going "Wow, good for you! Thanks!"

You know, you're really overly aggressive. I think you need a sedative or something. The OP does have an option: He can leave. If he doesn't like the people who are taking care of him well enough to respect him, he can leave.

That right there is the problem. Having that kind of "faith" is not a good thing. It's a weakness, and in this case it's royally screwing the OP over. His grandparents are being cruel and intolerant. What about the beauty of seeing through all the bullshit? Why can't his grandparents accept that for what it is? The only reason his believes must be compromises is because he's overpowered and outnumbered; which is precisely how religious fucks control everything everywhere else.

I believe whatever makes people feel better about their lives and their deaths is a good thing. And if that's faith in god, then good for them. It sounds like his parents are accepting him fine. They haven't kicked him out. They're trying to "save his soul". Big fucking deal. It's not like they're exorcising him. And if he doesn't believe something just his grandparents telling him otherwise isn't going to change him mind. Why should he feel so threatened by people with different beliefs? That's a little facist, don't you think?

*They* are being cruel to *him*. Again, religiousness is not something inherently respectable and it is NOT an excuse for offensive and equally unrespectable behaviour. There is no beauty in going "I believe it so it MUST be true, and you have to believe it too!" Especially when there's an "Or Else" attached, as is so often the case.

The whole point of "faith" is faith. It's believing in something you can't prove exists. If they knew god exist faith would sieze to matter thereby discounting everything god stands for.

Cheers,

Lost

I'm extremely pleased to see Lost Cause getting involved in the discussion here and hope to see much more in other threads as well!

Punch them in the fucking face. Stupid fucking old people.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

I'm extremely pleased to see Lost Cause getting involved in the discussion here and hope to see much more in other threads as well!

Why do you make post like this one? While I'm at it, why do you always quote entire dictionary entries and copy and paste loads of information from wikipedia but very rarely say it's from wikipedia?

[This message has been edited by Raw_Power (edited 08-19-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Raw_Power:

Why do you make post like this one? While I'm at it, why do you always quote entire dictionary entries and copy and paste loads of information from wikipedia but very rarely say it's from wikipedia?



I don't know exactly why he posts posts like that, but it's probably for the same reason you post posts like that one.

Cheers,

Lost

http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by LostCause:

I don't know exactly why he posts posts like that, but it's probably for the same reason you post posts like that one.

Cheers,

Lost

He makes posts like mine because he wants to know what he's on about and why he keeps copying wikipedia articles and acting as though he's a philosopher?

You mentioned paganism, which not to be critical might just be a form of rebellious reaction against you're forceful grandparents. However, if another religion is still a possibility, and if you feel you could still connect yourself with christianity, look into the Quakers. They worship the Christian god without ever having to go to Church, because they feel we don't need man made constructs to get in touch with god. Even as an agnostic, I think that is a very beautiful view, much more so than the idea behind worship in churches.

Anyway, it might involve a little too much discipline, I'm not sure, but Quakers get my respect, and are cooler than both church going christians, and pagans. The main thing is, you're grandparents would be reassured that you're christian, and you'd have a reason not to go to church.

At the very least, doing some research and pretending to be a quaker might solve your problems.

quote:Originally posted by Raw_Power:

He makes posts like mine because he wants to know what he's on about and why he keeps copying wikipedia articles and acting as though he's a philosopher?

May be he's just trying to define things, and may be he is a philosopher. What the fuck? Isn't everyone a philosopher?

Cheers,

Lost

You know, I was actually going to respond to your entire post, LostCause. But then I realized that you're the kind of person that dosen't mind being walked all over. I'm "overly-aggresive" to you because I refuse the crap that you happily accept. People like you are as much sheep as the rest of the religious populous is, except I pity you.

You were right about one thing though, the OP's option is to leave. As difficult as that is, I agree that he should go for it.

quote:Originally posted by LostCause:

May be he's just trying to define things, and may be he is a philosopher. What the fuck? Isn't everyone a philosopher?

Cheers,

Lost

http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

quote:Originally posted by Gackt:

Well my grandparents are extremely religious people and constantly telling me if I don't do the right shit and don't go to church and stuff, I'll be going to hell. And they do tell me to go to church and its torture on me. How do I tell them that I don't believe in that entire Christan bullshit and I'm an athiest and I want to live my life free of worry, without them feeling a grudge and telling me I'm going to Hell even MORE. I just can't stand the force christianity and stuff. I'm thinking of Paganism, as nature is one of the most interesting things and the Fibonacci sequence. They took a large portion of my music, which consists mostly of heavy metal and progressive and BURNED IT. They're now wanting me to cut my metalhead hair http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif). And trying to make me listen to gospel shit. I REALLY need advice.



I'll teach you how to keep your music in a second, but first I have to say, Lost Cause is going in the right direction. They are doing this because they "want to save you", so let them save you. They are old and might not be around much longer, and it would make them happy. You don't have to become a priest just act converted, don't go over the top, but just agree with what they say and go along with it while your with them. It's just going to make them happy that they "saved you" and you'll get more privacy and less resistance when you want to do things because they know your a good christian boy, and won't "sin". It will take some time getting used to, but it'll work out better for you in the end.

Now for you music, just take whatever music you have on your computer, or on your/your friend's cds, and put it on your computer. Next download True Crypt (http://www.truecrypt.org). This will let you hide all your music, in fact you can name the file they are hidden in anything you want, and you can make it look like anykind of file. You then open the file with truecrypt and store your music in that file (make sure the file is big enough). At the very worst it will look like you have a file that won't open on your computer.

In fact, it might be a good idea to actually put the file on a usb jump drive, so you can listen to music anywhere there is a computer and headphones. USB jump drives are pretty cheap, and headphones are pretty cheap. You should be fine. In this case just install truecrypt onto the USB drive instead of the computer, also with this method your grandparents don't see you installed anything. Then you can listen on your comp, or if you think your grandparents would object, go to the library, a friends house, or anywhere with a computer, you'll still have your music in a good portable form.

If you need help with truecrypt it has a readme, and is pretty simple, but I'm sure someone could help you in the tech section of this website if you still needed more help.

As for your hair, I personally think you should cut it and spike it, no mohawks, just some gel, it will look fine, and still be acceptable to your folks. I do however understand that people will long hair don't want to get a cut, for example: my friend who is forced to go to christian school even though he is athiest, had hair to his shoulder, which although it didn't look bad, his school still made him cut it. Since the people trying to make you cut it are your grandparents, and not a school, you could try the "Jesus had long hair" but I doubt it will work. Worth a try though. I've had long and short hair and I think short looks better, just my oppinion though.

Well hopefully this is enough info for you to keep your sanity, your music, and maybe your hair. Good luck man.

quote:Originally posted by Aft3r ImaGe:

I'll teach you how to keep your music in a second, but first I have to say, Lost Cause is going in the right direction. They are doing this because they "want to save you", so let them save you. They are old and might not be around much longer, and it would make them happy. You don't have to become a priest just act converted, don't go over the top, but just agree with what they say and go along with it while your with them. It's just going to make them happy that they "saved you" and you'll get more privacy and less resistance when you want to do things because they know your a good christian boy, and won't "sin". It will take some time getting used to, but it'll work out better for you in the end.

Now for you music, just take whatever music you have on your computer, or on your/your friend's cds, and put it on your computer. Next download True Crypt (http://www.truecrypt.org). This will let you hide all your music, in fact you can name the file they are hidden in anything you want, and you can make it look like anykind of file. You then open the file with truecrypt and store your music in that file (make sure the file is big enough). At the very worst it will look like you have a file that won't open on your computer.

In fact, it might be a good idea to actually put the file on a usb jump drive, so you can listen to music anywhere there is a computer and headphones. USB jump drives are pretty cheap, and headphones are pretty cheap. You should be fine. In this case just install truecrypt onto the USB drive instead of the computer, also with this method your grandparents don't see you installed anything. Then you can listen on your comp, or if you think your grandparents would object, go to the library, a friends house, or anywhere with a computer, you'll still have your music in a good portable form.

If you need help with truecrypt it has a readme, and is pretty simple, but I'm sure someone could help you in the tech section of this website if you still needed more help.

As for your hair, I personally think you should cut it and spike it, no mohawks, just some gel, it will look fine, and still be acceptable to your folks. I do however understand that people will long hair don't want to get a cut, for example: my friend who is forced to go to christian school even though he is athiest, had hair to his shoulder, which although it didn't look bad, his school still made him cut it. Since the people trying to make you cut it are your grandparents, and not a school, you could try the "Jesus had long hair" but I doubt it will work. Worth a try though. I've had long and short hair and I think short looks better, just my oppinion though.

Well hopefully this is enough info for you to keep your sanity, your music, and maybe your hair. Good luck man.

I just wanted to say that I think that whole bit about how to hide his music was a really constructive and usefull addition to this thread. I sort of thought of something like that, but I know nothing about technology.

Cheers,

Lost

It depends whether they are reasonable or not.

If they are reasonable, pull a WWJD (subtley) and point out that he never forced his faith upon people (at least I don't think so). Just make sure they don't think they are being blackmailed by a do this or go to hell kind of thing.

If they are unreasonable you should explain that jesus had long hair, why shouldn't you. Also ask them whether or not god is everywhere. If they say yes (which they will) explain that you feel uncomfortable in a church atmosphere and that you would rather pray and read the bible in solidarity. You could also explain that you do not like the gospel music, and say that like the gospel singers alot of heavy metal groups are all about the music, which is more than can be said for some of the stuff they find acceptable.

1. atheism is just as ignorant as Christianity or any other relgion. Agnosticism is the most rational.

2. really good gospel music >>>>>> heavy metal

(of course, the gospel that your g'parents listen to is probably pure crap and much worse than metal.

3. I believe in God. I also despise religion. hmmm... just remember to realize that we are all one, and there is never anything to fear. Recognize & embrace the divine spark that is in all of us, and you will be just fine. church & religion will only mislead you, you have to find out for yourself, that's the whole point. It's the journey that is important, not the destination. Try to explain to your grandparents that their quaint little traditions are outdated, and that a truly spiritual person has no use for them.

I agree with basically everything Albatross has said.

LostCause said: "why is it that I believe that your elders should be respected naturally due to senority and you believe that no matter the seniority everyone is on an even playing field as a human animal and should have to earn your respect as you earn theirs?"

I don't think elders should be any more respected than the rest of the populace, That just sounds like bullshit to me. I judge people by their actions and their personality, not by their age.

totally unrelated:

lost, why do you mod s&a? you clearly have more of a passion for this forum. the only time you EVER post in s&a is when you have an issue.

sorry, im just an s&a girl and i feel defensive.

first off, yo GACKT, where the fuck are you? second, you should just higher a big black guy to rape and murder your grandparents, thats what i did

If they loved you at all they would respect your difference of beliefs and love you for who you are. Being that they are trying to force their views on you it just proves they don't respect you.

Move out and completely disown/cut off all contact with them.

quote:Originally posted by Whore of God:

I agree with basically everything Albatross has said.

LostCause said: "why is it that I believe that your elders should be respected naturally due to senority and you believe that no matter the seniority everyone is on an even playing field as a human animal and should have to earn your respect as you earn theirs?"

I don't think elders should be any more respected than the rest of the populace, That just sounds like bullshit to me. I judge people by their actions and their personality, not by their age.

I've been thinking about this ever since I replied to this thread. I think that having inherent respect for your elders is perhaps a by-product of a Judaeo-Christian way of thinking. It's never occurred to me that my elders are only people, therefore there could easily be people who don't believe they should get special treatment. That was the way I was raised. I was raised to believe that my grandparents gave up their lives for their children and that my parents gave up their lives for their children. They didn't always have much to give and they fucked up a lot, but they gave up their lives.

I find it difficult to understand how someone else could not understand why you're supposed to respect your elders, but I suppose there is definitely the reason so. And I suppose it doesn't inherently make you a bad person or a grandma-beater if you don't believe the elderly deserve special treatment. But, I also see them as handicap in a way, and you wouldn't go up and slap a cancer patient or anything...

I haven't completely come to a conclusion on this, so this is all speculation.

Cheers,

Lost

quote:Originally posted by oral fixation:

totally unrelated:

lost, why do you mod s&a? you clearly have more of a passion for this forum. the only time you EVER post in s&a is when you have an issue.

sorry, im just an s&a girl and i feel defensive.

If you want to speak with me personally you can e-mail me. My e-mail is on my profile. I'd be happy to tell you, but I don't think right here is the appropriate place for that discussion.

Cheers,

Lost

LostCause do you ever get angry when you're arguing with people on totse? Because you've argued very passively with Albatross in this thread.

I like the way Shotties argues, he always pwns and is usually right.

Also you said you see them as handicapped and compared them to a cancer patient. Would you like to be treated as "the poor old man/woman" (I'm not sure what gender you are) when you're older? I sure wouldn't.

[This message has been edited by Whore of God (edited 09-19-2006).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Whore of God:

LostCause do you ever get angry when you're arguing with people on totse? Because you've argued very passively with Albatross in this thread.

- No. And I don't argue on Totse. I debate. Once it become and "argument" I get disinterested on account of arguing over the internet is like banging your head against a wall. I don't feel I was particularily passive with Albatross, I simply don't really care about his opinion of me. So, the fact that we disagree on something isn't the end of my world and I moved on accepting the fact that he wasn't going to hear what I was talking about.

I have enough arguing in my real life.

Also you said you see them as handicapped and compared them to a cancer patient. Would you like to be treated as "the poor old man/woman" (I'm not sure what gender you are) when you're older? I sure wouldn't.

- Yes. When I'm 80 years old and I walk all hunched over a cain and I've lost control of my bowels and shake when I talk, yea. I don't want people asking me to tier their yard or scrub the bathroom floor. I expect to be treated as disable, since I will be disabled. That's why old people get the disabled sticker so that they can park closer to the store front.

Edit: And moreover, I don't treat disabled people with disrespect either. I have a friend who has CP and is in a wheelchair and while I certainly recognize/treat him as he's disabled as I don't ask him to get things off high shelves for me or tell him to build me a house, I treat him with as much respect as I would any friend of mine. So, I don't think treating disabled people like they're disabled is a sign of disrespect. It's a sign of acknowledging reality.

Cheers,

Lost

[This message has been edited by LostCause (edited 09-19-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by LostCause:



I haven't completely come to a conclusion on this, so this is all speculation.

Cheers,

Lost

Lost I think you are spot on, respect is a big issue and it matters not whether the grandparents deserve that or not. Take the example of the Police Officer: The individual officers are a mix of all the personality types and reflect the communities in which they grew up, so you will get some arseholes and some saints, but most will be a mixture, just like the rest of us except more responsibility and power.

As has been said, power corrupts, so it should not surprise to encounter a corrupt officer of the law, but is that the issue? Is it the idividual officer or the 'office' held that deserves that respect? Should my opinion of that individual decrease my respect for the office/position held?

Should my distaste for the 'pig' of an officer standing at my car window laying a whole load of his crap on me, lead me to dismiss the whole police organisation, and all of it's members, as unworthy of respect?

At the very least should I consider that this officer, regardless of his corruption, still has the power to throw one into jail and seriously fuckup the good life?

IMHO the grandparents deserve respect because by and large the elders in our community have worked hard and responsibly, they have sacrificed and struggled to establish a better life for their children. A few percentage points of that generation misbehaving should not cloud the big picture.

Peace be with you http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Ok.

Just tell them what they want to hear...