If someone kills/rapes/molests kids and repents in jail will he still get into heaven or whatever? I sure hope not http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

This is why the very concept of God is stupid.

To my knowledge of christian mythology the only unforgivable sins *might* be Denying the holy spirit and some suicide related things. Its all up to interpretation and I could be wrong.

Not to say a murderer would have to go through the necessary repentance processes and truly be repentful and what not, but I could be wrong.

Yes they will experience heaven. But the fact that they kill, rape and molests kids demonstrates they haven't the spiritual understanding which provides "Heavenly experience".

For example. The bully beats up kids because he may have issues with his own worthiness as a male. It's his own inner issues that prevent him from experiencing higher levels of happiness, but eventually he'll overcome the issues, stop beating people up and experience a more heavenly life.

We all have issues that make us less happy and cause us to act in undesirable ways, so we should be aware that some people have huge issues and need help resolving them.

quote:Originally posted by Satanz Handicaped Helper:

If someone kills/rapes/molests kids and repents in jail will he still get into heaven or whatever? I sure hope not http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

If you do you wrong, for whatever reason, and are in jail now, and feel your impending death, and begin to believe hell waits for you, and you repent and spend your last years in prison as a good person, wouldn't you hope that God forgives you if you ask and do right?

The only people there is no forgiveness for are those who blaspheme against the holy spirit. They are defiantly going to hell; therefore, I am defiantly going to hell if it is a real place.

It's funny that someone who molested two children, ruining their lives, might get into heaven, but I defiantly won't for renouncing the holy spirit and saying 'fuck the holy spirit'.

[This message has been edited by Raw_Power (edited 08-22-2006).]

God does not judge or punish. We do a more than ample job of doing that ourselves.

God has no need to forgive, as God cannot be offended.

quote:Originally posted by ArmsMerchant:

God does not judge or punish. We do a more than ample job of doing that ourselves.

God has no need to forgive, as God cannot be offended.

Oh, you don't call making ten commandments and saying if we do not adhere to them we'll be sent to hell a punishment?

edit - god is like a man who holds a knife to your neck and if you don't do as he says, he slits you and says "you did it to yourself"; an abusive husband who blames his wife for the cause of his drunken outbursts.



[This message has been edited by Raw_Power (edited 08-22-2006).]

If the person truly is sorry for what he did and asks for forgivness, God will give it. The only unforgivable sin is denying God until you die, then you won't be able to be forgiven.

quote:Originally posted by Dragonsthrone:

If the person truly is sorry for what he did and asks for forgivness, God will give it. The only unforgivable sin is denying God until you die, then you won't be able to be forgiven.

That's not the only one, the other is blaspheme against the holy spirit, which I have done many a time.

quote:Originally posted by Raw_Power:

Oh, you don't call making ten commandments and saying if we do not adhere to them we'll be sent to hell a punishment?

edit - god is like a man who holds a knife to your neck and if you don't do as he says, he slits you and says "you did it to yourself"; an abusive husband who blames his wife for the cause of his drunken outbursts.



armsmerchant isn't a christian, newb

The Holy Spirit can suck my balls.

Oops I'm going to hell now!

quote:Originally posted by coolwestman:

armsmerchant isn't a christian, newb

Only newbs use newb as an insult.

quote:Originally posted by Raw_Power:

Only newbs use newb as an insult.

ye-damn rite! The L33T say n00b!

quote:Originally posted by Raw_Power:

Oh, you don't call making ten commandments and saying if we do not adhere to them we'll be sent to hell a punishment?

edit - god is like a man who holds a knife to your neck and if you don't do as he says, he slits you and says "you did it to yourself"; an abusive husband who blames his wife for the cause of his drunken outbursts.



OOOOOOOOOOH you're gonna get it now!

Did the absusive husband or the man with the knife give you your hands, eyes, ears, nose, senses, organs, life force, brain, environment, atmosphere, possible perceptions, universe, possible thoughts, possible actions, and absolutely everything that you might take for granted? I don't think so...Thus, God is not like a man with a knife or an abusive husband but rather, God is like The Creator and Originator and Sustainer to which you owe absolutely everything to. If you submit to God you will find peace and reward in doing right. If you disobey and take for granted all that you have and all that is in the universe, denying God, you are only destroying yourself as Hell will be your final abode an example of how you spent your life burning yourself, and now shall spend eternity burning in the fires of hell for your denial.

quote:Originally posted by Raw_Power:

Oh, you don't call making ten commandments and saying if we do not adhere to them we'll be sent to hell a punishment?



Who said we'd go to hell. The 10 commandments do not mention hell. The 10 commandments are more like guidlines for how to avoid a troublesome life.

quote:Originally posted by Raw_Power:

edit - god is like a man who holds a knife to your neck and if you don't do as he says, he slits you and says "you did it to yourself"; an abusive husband who blames his wife for the cause of his drunken outbursts.



As ArmsMerchant often says. "The kind of God you don't believe in is nothing like the one I do"

Your Idea of God sucks.

He forgives who He wants. Of course, there is the unforgivable sin, SHIRK!

quote:Originally posted by Loc Dogg:

He forgives who He wants. Of course, there is the unforgivable sin, SHIRK!

NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH SHREK!

quote:Originally posted by Loc Dogg:

He forgives who He wants. Of course, there is the unforgivable sin, SHIRK!

The way I understood it is blasphemy is attributing the works of god to satan, that is: one would not approach a being for forgiveness if one thought that being evil. The religious teachers blasphemed by attributing the works of god to satan when they accused Jesus of curing people by the power of satan. Obviously that sin cannot be forgiven because of the ignorance of the sinner, not because god was unwilling to forgive. Like if your trying to help someone who is drowning and they keep pushing you away.

Namaste http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by redzed:

The way I understood it is blasphemy is attributing the works of god to satan, that is: one would not approach a being for forgiveness if one thought that being evil. The religious teachers blasphemed by attributing the works of god to satan when they accused Jesus of curing people by the power of satan. Obviously that sin cannot be forgiven because of the ignorance of the sinner, not because god was unwilling to forgive. Like if your trying to help someone who is drowning and they keep pushing you away.

Namaste http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

*gurgle*

quote:Originally posted by ---Beany---:

Who said we'd go to hell. The 10 commandments do not mention hell. The 10 commandments are more like guidlines for how to avoid a troublesome life.

You've never read the bible, have you? If you sin - break the ten commandments and other superfluous rules - and do not make Jesus Christ saviour of your life, you're burning in hell.

God with knife: "MAKE JESUS YOUR SAVIOUR OR BURN, MOTHERFUCKER."

quote:Originally posted by ---Beany---:

Your Idea of God sucks.

I'm not blinded by belief. When I look at the bible, I see a god who is a sociopathic cunt.

Also, it's nice of you to state that god is only an idea, too many people let their ideas run rampant and possess them (in a manner of speaking).



[This message has been edited by Raw_Power (edited 08-23-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by redzed

Obviously that sin cannot be forgiven because of the ignorance of the sinner, not because god was unwilling to forgive.

I don't see what is so obvious about it to you. I would think that ignorance should be forgiven before all sins (and that ignorance shouldn't be considered a sin). Here are these God loving people that are concerned that a human named Jesus is doing works through the hands of Satan, and for being incorrect they are not going to be forgiven by God? Makes no sense to me.

quote:Originally posted by Raw_Power:

I'm not blinded by belief. When I look at the bible, I see a god who is a sociopathic cunt.



So don't look at the bible. There are plenty of ideas about what god is and some of them make a shit loada sense. Try the conversations with god trilogy. Im not saying you have to believe in anything, but why fight xianity so much when there's more challenging battles to fight.

quote:Originally posted by ---Beany---:

So don't look at the bible. There are plenty of ideas about what god is and some of them make a shit loada sense. Try the conversations with god trilogy. Im not saying you have to believe in anything, but why fight xianity so much when there's more challenging battles to fight.

I don't just fight Christianity, I figured that that's the god you were talking about though because the only people on My God are atheists, christians, a few wiccans trying to be hip, and Abrahim. I don't believe that there is any god.

quote:Originally posted by Raw_Power:

I figured that that's the god you were talking about though because the only people on My God are atheists, christians, a few wiccans trying to be hip, and Abrahim.

That's why the discussions on this board are never as interesting as they could be.

Anyhoo, I know at least Armsmerchant isn't xian and neither am I..... just for the record.

[This message has been edited by ---Beany--- (edited 08-23-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Raw_Power:

Oh, you don't call making ten commandments and saying if we do not adhere to them we'll be sent to hell a punishment?



I call that a myth.

And one reason why Christianity is a religion of fear and denial.

quote:Originally posted by Martini:

I don't see what is so obvious about it to you. I would think that ignorance should be forgiven before all sins (and that ignorance shouldn't be considered a sin). Here are these God loving people that are concerned that a human named Jesus is doing works through the hands of Satan, and for being incorrect they are not going to be forgiven by God? Makes no sense to me.

It's up to each person to make sense of anything. I am not advocating one way or another simply saying in my reading of the stories of the new testament about the 'unforgivable sin' it seems that 'sin' is better cognised as 'error'. The error of the religious leaders was in attributing the works of jesus to an evil entity, obviously a person believing jesus to be possessed of evil would not approach him, or the god he represented, for forgiveness.

The analogy given was of a person trying to save another from drowning. If the person drowning believed the one attempting to save them was evil - therefore likely to harm or kill them, they would be afraid of that person and not be likely to accept that help. Thus the god represented by jesus, is not able to forgive the error of one who turns away in fear because they think that god is an evil entity. They will continue in their error/sin and incur the wages of sin.

This is consistent with other statements in the new testament such as Paul saying he was convinced that nothing was able to seperate a believer from the love of god as shown in jesus.

quote: 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written:

"For your sake we face death all day long;

we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered."[a] 37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[b] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 8:35-39

The texts used to support the 'unforgivable sin' are plainly metaphor and allegory and should be interpreted thru the context of the whole teaching as well as the culture of the time.

I Corinthians 13:8 -- "Love never fails".

That is my 'opinion' of the message of the new testament, this is what I believe:

quote:"No one saves us but ourselves. No one can and no one may. We ourselves must walk the path."

Buddha

Namaste http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

[This message has been edited by redzed (edited 08-23-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by redzed

obviously a person believing jesus to be possessed of evil would not approach him, or the god he represented, for forgiveness.

So what? A compassionate and sensible God would not expect someone to ask to be forgiven if he is not aware of his mistake.



quote:Originally posted by redzed

If the person drowning believed the one attempting to save them was evil - therefore likely to harm or kill them, they would be afraid of that person and not be likely to accept that help. Thus the god represented by jesus, is not able to forgive the error of one who turns away in fear because they think that god is an evil entity.

A loving and all powerful lifeguard would attempt and succeed at saving a drowning person, whether or not that person thought the lifeguard was trying to harm him.

GOD CAN FUCKIN SUCK MY COCK HE FUCKIN DOESNT EXIST! ITS JUST PEOPLE WHO WANT TO FILL THERE MINDS WITH SHIT TO TRY TO UNDERSTAND UNIPORTANT PARTS OF UR LIFE SO TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION-NO THEY DONT CAUSE THERES NO HEVAN OR HELL AND NEVER WILL BE!!!

is best for the person that gets excuted or servers time in jails as karma, so in his next life he wont have to suffer from what he did.

quote:Originally posted by Martini:

So what? A compassionate and sensible God would not expect someone to ask to be forgiven if he is not aware of his mistake.

........



A loving and all powerful lifeguard would attempt and succeed at saving a drowning person, whether or not that person thought the lifeguard was trying to harm him.

Yes, you are right, if one takes the story literally. However if one looks at it as teaching aimed at an audience who believed certain things about the nature of god, sin and forgiveness it changes things.



There was a marine who went on a rafting expedition, he had been trained to be self reliant, not to ask others for help. To do so would be showing weakness. At a point on the river the raft hit a submerged rock and the marine was thrown into the water. He surfaced laughing and rejected offers of help from the guide. The guide pleaded with the marine to allow him to help, but the marine turned away and swam out of reach. Suddenly he was caught in a current, dragged under and drowned.

The marine is the 'sinner', sin = error. He made an error/sin in not listening to his guide. The guide was willing to forgive that error/sin if only the marine would accept the proffered help, but to do so would have made the marine look weak. He saw the actions of the guide as being opposed to his best interests(evil) and so rejected help and died.

I understand the prevailing point of view seems to be that the xian god is an evil bastard who wants to condemn and punish, that is not my view. Nor is it my view that there exists an omnipotent being who could save humanity in spite of ourselves.

There is much good in the xian message if one looks beyond preconceived bias and examines the context in which the stories were created and the audience for which they were intended.

Namaste http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

^ Yay Redzed

quote:Originally posted by redzed:



There is much good in the xian message if one looks beyond preconceived bias and examines the context in which the stories were created and the audience for which they were intended.



Yes. So much good. Like God turning people into salt, commanding people to be put to death, destroying entire nations, flooding the world. So much good.

Sure, if you want to pick out the nice lovie-dovie bits then maybe. But if you want to read the whole thing and remember the part where God explains the circumstances in which it is okay to beat your slaves, then we have a mixed message.

redzed, your Marine story is just another variation on the story you already gave. Again, it's a horrible analogy. Jesus is not the only person that existed that claimed he had talked to God and has the real message. If Jesus turns out to be the real deal among all others and someone rejects his message because he thinks that Jesus is lying, delusional, or 2000 years later the story is just a story, and has no evil intent in his disbelief, God would be a hell of a prick for sending that person to Hell for being incorrect about the claims of a man.

quote:Originally posted by Martini:

redzed, your Marine story is just another variation on the story you already gave. Again, it's a horrible analogy. Jesus is not the only person that existed that claimed he had talked to God and has the real message. If Jesus turns out to be the real deal among all others and someone rejects his message because he thinks that Jesus is lying, delusional, or 2000 years later the story is just a story, and has no evil intent in his disbelief, God would be a hell of a prick for sending that person to Hell for being incorrect about the claims of a man.

Again you seem to answer out of a preconceived idea of the xian religion and god. I understand how powerful the image projected by the Romans and their many cults is and has been. It is not my view that the message of christ is of a god who is going to send sinners to hell. Rather the message is of a god who will do anything to save sinners from the inevitable consequences of their sins/errors. I do not believe the bible represents an accurate or complete record of the life and times of the person known to us as Jesus. I agree "God would be a hell of a prick for sending that person to Hell for being incorrect about the claims of a man". IMHO such a being would be unworthy of worship, let alone love.

Is it possible on an internet forum to fully express one's experiences? No I think not. Most of communication is non-verbal and here we have an inadequate way of interacting that needs patience and willingness to see the other's point of view. Without taking over this thread it is not possible to explore all the reasons I believe the myths surrounding Jesus to have been corrupted to serve the ends of those bent on power and control. Those forces are exercised mainly thru fear, a tactic which is blatantly obvious and at odds with the verses about love quoted above.

This is not to say my understanding of the story of Jesus is a 'lovey dovey one' http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif), on the contrary. Take another look at my quote from Buddha, to my mind the message is similar. It is up to each person to work out their own salvation, not because some irate god will throw one into hell, but because one's own sinful/erroneous thoughts and actions can plunge one into the pits of depression and despair.

Example: The new testament story in which Jesus was accused of blasphemy, a crime of the time, punishable by immediate stoning to death, because he called himself the son of god. Jesus defence was that the jews own laws(in the Psalms) say that "you are Gods"(speaking of human beings). In saying this was Jesus claiming any difference to any other human being? No he was claiming that his statement of being the son of god was a condition common to humanity, that we are all the children of god. Once more look at the context, he was speaking to an audience similar to many of those on TOTSE in that they had concrete, preconceived ideas on god, so he spoke in a language and a manner which they could relate to, and in private moments explained to his closer followers what it all meant.

Cut to the chase: Jesus taught the inherent divinity of humanity and was crucified because that teaching was a huge challenge to the power/fear tactics of the priests and rulers. The message is that we are all divine beings made of eternal stuff, "children of the universe, no less than the trees or the stars, we have a right to be here"(Desiderata) and no man or 'god' can take that away. We are the captains of our ships, we are the masters of our own destinies, others may help, but it is we who must walk the path, it is I who must learn to control my own thoughts and actions. I am responsible, I will reap the positive or negative fruits of the causes I enact each moment. It is I who have the power to plunge myself into an unrelenting physical/mental hell, or I may lift myself to a state of 'pure mind' where "joy follows like a shadow" (Buddha)

Namaste http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by ---Beany---:

^ Yay Redzed

redzed, your annoyingly long post does not change what you said earlier:

"Thus the god represented by jesus, is not able to forgive the error of one who turns away in fear because they think that god is an evil entity."

Saying that a loving, omnipotent God is not able to forgive someone for not knowing the truth of Jesus' identity is an absurd concept.

quote:Originally posted by Martini:

redzed, your annoyingly long post does not change what you said earlier:

"Thus the god represented by jesus, is not able to forgive the error of one who turns away in fear because they think that god is an evil entity."

Saying that a loving, omnipotent God is not able to forgive someone for not knowing the truth of Jesus' identity is an absurd concept.

Martini, it seems you are ignoring the context in which that comment was made, and I wonder why? You persist with your comments of an omnipotent god when it is on record that I do not hold to that view. Then you introduce subtle ad hominems regarding "annoying" posts. I am not your enemy, my mind is open, if I am wrong, ok show me where and I will be grateful to you.

Namaste http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by inu_spirit:

GOD CAN FUCKIN SUCK MY COCK HE FUCKIN DOESNT EXIST! ITS JUST PEOPLE WHO WANT TO FILL THERE MINDS WITH SHIT TO TRY TO UNDERSTAND UNIPORTANT PARTS OF UR LIFE SO TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION-NO THEY DONT CAUSE THERES NO HEVAN OR HELL AND NEVER WILL BE!!!

Well this guy's gonna burn in hell, if hell exists.

Translation of the above into civilized text: "I believe that God may want to give me oral sex. I think that people who want to believe in God only fill their craniums with feces, attempting to comprehend the uncomprehendable in our world. To reply to your inquiry, no they don't, because I believe that heaven and hell haven't, don't, and never will exist."