If a person was raised in a lab or something and not told anything about the outside world, he or she wouldn't just magically believe in a certain religion and have faith in it. So why do people believe in these religions. Is it just because some preacher told them about it? What proof did he offer?

If you're thinking, "well someone had to show them about it." Think about Plato's Allegory of the Cave. The people inside the cave had no idea about anything besides what they saw on the wall. Just like a person would have no understanding of a higher being. In the Allegory of the Cave, someone shows them the outside of the cave. He doesn't just tell them of the outside like a preacher, parent, or teacher does with religion.

So why do people have faith in religion? If the person just told the others inside the cave that there was more, do you think they would believe him? and possibly enough to go and tell others about an outside world that they have never seen?

Basically, what I'm trying to say is why do people still have faith in their religions once they reach the high school level. You'd think that educated people wouldn't believe any of it. And why is it that people can believe in a god but completely refuse to accept the possibility of aliens and whatnot. It seems that people only believe the stuff because their parents do.



[This message has been edited by psychedelicious (edited 08-21-2006).]

It's banged into people from a very young age, whether directly by parents or non-directly, it doesn't matter, the seed is sown. How many people can you think of that weren't told about god as though he was real at an impressionable age?

Have you ever read the book "My Religion" by Helen Keller? It's an interesting read.

quote:Originally posted by psychedelicious:

If a person was raised in a lab or something and not told anything about the outside world, he or she wouldn't just magically believe in a certain religion and have faith in it. So why do people believe in these religions. Is it just because some preacher told them about it? What proof did he offer?

If you're thinking, "well someone had to show them about it." Think about Plato's Allegory of the Cave. The people inside the cave had no idea about anything besides what they saw on the wall. Just like a person would have no understanding of a higher being. In the Allegory of the Cave, someone shows them the outside of the cave. He doesn't just tell them of the outside like a preacher, parent, or teacher does with religion.

So why do people have faith in religion? If the person just told the others inside the cave that there was more, do you think they would believe him? and possibly enough to go and tell others about an outside world that they have never seen?

Basically, what I'm trying to say is why do people still have faith in their religions once they reach the high school level. You'd think that educated people wouldn't believe any of it. And why is it that people can believe in a god but completely refuse to accept the possibility of aliens and whatnot. It seems that people only believe the stuff because their parents do.



It might be easier to convince a lab raised person of something in comparison to those who are culturually imbedded since youth.

quote:Originally posted by Raw_Power:

It's banged into people from a very young age, whether directly by parents or non-directly, it doesn't matter, the seed is sown. How many people can you think of that weren't told about god as though he was real at an impressionable age?

This is obviously not completly true. I've read countless testimonies of many people here on Totse that say they were raised in Christian homes only to reject the notion of God all together later in life.

The logic is flawed...evironment does not lead to faith - faith is found through revelation.

I can tell you about my experience all day long but until God brings you to life spiritually you will not believe a word I say. It is proven time and time again. Your mommy, your daddy or even your bull legged granny can't open your eyes towards God.

The same reason (SOME) people adopt the racist or homophobic notions of their parents.. they've been exposed to it for so long and programmed to believe it, without having any opposite/oppposing belief present itself in the stages of development that would have prevented or hindered the parental's belief systems that had been pounded into them.

quote:Originally posted by Merlinman2005:

The same reason (SOME) people adopt the racist or homophobic notions of their parents.. they've been exposed to it for so long and programmed to believe it, without having any opposite/oppposing belief present itself in the stages of development that would have prevented or hindered the parental's belief systems that had been pounded into them.

Are we talking about faith or dogmatism?

I see a great difference.

If you are talking about dogmatism then I agree 100% - That is why Islamic militiants think it's ok to blow themselves up in a crowded market. Dogmatism and religion is dangerous to the body and mind.

quote:Originally posted by psychedelicious:

You'd think that educated people wouldn't believe any of it. And why is it that people can believe in a god but completely refuse to accept the possibility of aliens and whatnot. It seems that people only believe the stuff because their parents do.

A learned individual would know better than to believe everything that is taught in science class. For example, Newtonian gravity is about to be replaced.

It is true that what is in our minds was placed there by others--parents, teachers, whatever. What is in our hearts, however, was placed there by god at the time or our creation.

What I know of god, I accept because it resonates with what has always been in my heart.

quote:Originally posted by Interest:

This is obviously not completly true. I've read countless testimonies of many people here on Totse that say they were raised in Christian homes only to reject the notion of God all together later in life.

The logic is flawed...evironment does not lead to faith - faith is found through revelation.

I can tell you about my experience all day long but until God brings you to life spiritually you will not believe a word I say. It is proven time and time again. Your mommy, your daddy or even your bull legged granny can't open your eyes towards God.

I’m not saying that everyone who has it pounded into them believes, what I’m saying is the seed is planted and it is always there, because your brain gets rid of no information, you just cannot access all of it. And some people, when in a time of crisis or when they experience something they cannot comprehend, they run to or attribute that to the god they were taught of at a young age and have a ‘revelation’, then become ‘Christian’, occasionally, however, they will go to some other religion that’s also been taught to them.



[This message has been edited by Raw_Power (edited 08-22-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

A learned individual would know better than to believe everything that is taught in science class. For example, Newtonian gravity is about to be replaced.

That's not your real emotions towards god though, you've been taught to feel that way, just as you are taught from a young age to fear and dislike murder. You are conditioned from a very young age how to feel on certain subjects by your parents or teachers or other authorities to condition you for 'society'. You've been trained that god is love and that you are to feel him in your heart and feel happy.

In my opinion, a person is inculcated with a dogma that he takes as fundamental like God exists or racism is justified or etc.... When that person confronts something that contradicts it, that person uses faith as a defense mechanism because since he depended on it all his life, he doesn't want to go without it. Even though science contradicts The Genesis account, the believer was taught that it was true a priori, so therefore he will retreat to faith that science is false. Experiencing "revelations" and etc are just ways of mentally reconciling what one's justification of belief and what has been proven true.

[This message has been edited by hespeaks (edited 08-22-2006).]

A learned person would know better than to believe anything that is taught in sunday school. It's all bullshit.

quote:Originally posted by hespeaks:

Even though science contradicts The Genesis account, the believer was taught that it was true a priori, so therefore he will retreat to faith that science is false.

Not necessarily, he might restructure the information that he now has, to form something new.

Or he might reject his dogma completely and therefore abandon the need for faith.

My faith came out my anus, about a year ago.

DAMN did that hurt.

Though science says that certain aspects of the believed Genesis account are false, that doesn't mean the book is.

You just have to adjust, as Jack mentioned.

Like me, I believe Genesis does tell about the beginning of man, and the universe, but not through creationism. But I didn't adjust my beliefs after science proved it false, I actually began to believe in the Book (or parts of it) after experiencing things that helped me know that hey, the spiritual realm does exist, and something had to happen to Man in the beginning. Something big.

If some parts of the book have been proven false, then the rest of the book is highly suspect, especially since its supposed to be "inspired" by God. People trying to interpret accounts to adjust to proven knowledge is engaged in cicular reasoning because in the end a person interprets on the basis that the Bible is true and accurate which is itself the question. Its better to depend on natural explainations(which needs no faith) than disputed supernatural explanations (that needs faith).

quote:Originally posted by Merlinman2005:

Though science says that certain aspects of the believed Genesis account are false, that doesn't mean the book is.

You just have to adjust, as Jack mentioned.

Like me, I believe Genesis does tell about the beginning of man, and the universe, but not through creationism. But I didn't adjust my beliefs after science proved it false, I actually began to believe in the Book (or parts of it) after experiencing things that helped me know that hey, the spiritual realm does exist, and something had to happen to Man in the beginning. Something big.



What experience did you have that proved to you the spiritual realm?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by psychedelicious:



So why do people have faith in religion?[b]

- I think you're confusing faith with religion. I think if someone lived in a cave without any outside contact from the day they were born they would probably believe in a higher power. Perhaps not "god" but in forces greater than them. I mean, they need to eat, so what brings them food? They need to breathe, but why? They may see the Sun rise and set or the tides go in and out or the clouds move across the sky and they must wonder what makes all these things move. If they had no knowledge of modern science they would probably assume that these were the workings of a higher power.

[b]Basically, what I'm trying to say is why do people still have faith in their religions once they reach the high school level.

- Now you're confusing faith with knowing. It's arguable that the reason there is no way to prove god one way or the other is because he wants it that way. Because, of course, if we knew god existed there would be no point in faith. We would know; and it would be like knowing the sky exists. It would just be another huge, all encompassing thing, that we exist within, and which whose very existance dictates our lives. Just like the sky.

You'd think that educated people wouldn't believe any of it.

- Why not? If there's no way to prove it's not true.

And why is it that people can believe in a god but completely refuse to accept the possibility of aliens and whatnot.

- Well, it's my understanding that these people believe that god created us special and alone in the universe. That we are his only mortal children and that there are no other god-made beings in the universe. To suggest so would challenge their beliefs in their own purpose.

Cheers,

Lost

quote:Originally posted by LostCause:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by psychedelicious:



So why do people have faith in religion?[b]

- I think you're confusing faith with religion. I think if someone lived in a cave without any outside contact from the day they were born they would probably believe in a higher power. Perhaps not "god" but in forces greater than them. I mean, they need to eat, so what brings them food? They need to breathe, but why? They may see the Sun rise and set or the tides go in and out or the clouds move across the sky and they must wonder what makes all these things move. If they had no knowledge of modern science they would probably assume that these were the workings of a higher power.

[b]Basically, what I'm trying to say is why do people still have faith in their religions once they reach the high school level.

- Now you're confusing faith with knowing. It's arguable that the reason there is no way to prove god one way or the other is because he wants it that way. Because, of course, if we knew god existed there would be no point in faith. We would know; and it would be like knowing the sky exists. It would just be another huge, all encompassing thing, that we exist within, and which whose very existance dictates our lives. Just like the sky.

You'd think that educated people wouldn't believe any of it.

- Why not? If there's no way to prove it's not true.

And why is it that people can believe in a god but completely refuse to accept the possibility of aliens and whatnot.

- Well, it's my understanding that these people believe that god created us special and alone in the universe. That we are his only mortal children and that there are no other god-made beings in the universe. To suggest so would challenge their beliefs in their own purpose.

Cheers,

Lost

Excellent! I'm so happy to see your posts!

The only thing I can be certain exists is me.

I believe I am the creator and the universe I experience is my creation.

Now if only I could have more control over this mind of mine.

quote:Originally posted by LostCause

Basically, what I'm trying to say is why do people still have faith in their religions once they reach the high school level.

- Now you're confusing faith with knowing. It's arguable that the reason there is no way to prove god one way or the other is because he wants it that way. Because, of course, if we knew god existed there would be no point in faith.

I don't think the OP confused faith with knowing at all. The question is why do people have blind faith after attaining a certain level of education. It's not about why God does what He does.

quote:Originally posted by LostCause

You'd think that educated people wouldn't believe any of it.

- Why not? If there's no way to prove it's not true.

Because educated, rational people don't usually beleive in things because they can't be falsified. They believe in things because evidence points to its existence.



quote:Originally posted by LostCause

And why is it that people can believe in a god but completely refuse to accept the possibility of aliens and whatnot.

- Well, it's my understanding that these people believe that god created us special and alone in the universe.

The same question remains - Why?

quote:Originally posted by Martini:

Because educated, rational people don't usually beleive in things because they can't be falsified. They believe in things because evidence points to its existence.

You have to remember, few people apply the scientific method to their lives, and some people choose to believe no matter what.



"It is as useless to argue with those who have renounced the use

and authority of reason as it is to administer medication to the dead."

- Thomas Jefferson

You know, education doesn't deprive people of the ability to believe in what isn't seen. What does keep most people who are educated from believeing the Word of God is pride.

There are so many things that the school system has tried to explain, yet there's so much they've left unexplained.

It isn't a matter of 'where did you get your faith'. It's more a matter of'where IS your faith'. I put my faith in God, who NEVER lets me down. You put your faith in knowledge that MAN had attained. I think we ALL know that PEOPLE are PEOPLE, and will let us down the moment we put our faith in them.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz

What does keep most people who are educated from believeing the Word of God is pride.

Incorrect. I haven't met an atheist yet who doesn't believe because admitting to a power greater than him would hurt his pride. The overwhelming reason is lack of evidence and evidence that the natural world around us works fine without gods.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz

It isn't a matter of 'where did you get your faith'. It's more a matter of'where IS your faith'. I put my faith in God, who NEVER lets me down. You put your faith in knowledge that MAN had attained.

It seems that you believe if one doesn't have faith in God, he must have faith in something else. How I feel about the collective knowledge of men would not change if I decided to believe in God.

Qur'anic Islam comes from Arabia

New Testament Christianity comes from...the Roman Empire?

Old Testament Judaism comes from...I don't know? Which countries were the old testament written in, I'm pretty sure the Talmud came out of the Hellenistic Period when Jewish and Greek thought intermingled.

Buddhism comes from India?

Hinduism comes from India

Bahai comes from Persia

Zoroastrianism comes from Persia

Taoism comes from China

Shinto comes from Japan

What else? There are lots of sects for each of these which developed in different countries.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

You know, education doesn't deprive people of the ability to believe in what isn't seen.

Depends on who you talk to, it does encourage some people to use reason, and that reason leads to a disbelief in god, due to lack of proof.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

What does keep most people who are educated from believing the Word of God is pride.

Not at all, you just using that as your way to put people with different ideas than you into a group with a false motive to make yourself feel better instead of considering their ideas themselves.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:



There are so many things that the school system has tried to explain, yet there's so much they've left unexplained.



This is true, and that is why science is important, we don't know alot, but we do know a great deal. The only way to increase our knowledge is to keep learning.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

It isn't a matter of 'where did you get your faith'. It's more a matter of'where IS your faith'. I put my faith in God, who NEVER lets me down.



I doubt you can present proof of this.

I have never been presented proof no matter how many people, even the strongest believers, or the most faithful, have said they have it.

Look at this story for instance:

When I was a kid I thought I could directly have a conversation with god, but after a while I thought well, how do I know this isn't just me thinking answers to my questions, rationalizing things.

Turns out god couldn't think anything I couldn't think, couldn't present anything I didn't already know. I realized it was myself making myself feel better.

Point is you are the easiest person you can fool, the first step is to stop fooling yourself.

For example, tomorrow, try praying for a bonus at work the next day, or winning the lottery, maybe even finding true love. Ask for something within a certain amount of time. Ask to know who the next president is. Next time you break up with someone you love, ask god to get you back together. See if it happens. See if YOU try to make it happen. The moment you notice your trying to make your prayers come true, your going to know you were the one doing it all along.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

You put your faith in knowledge that MAN had attained.

I put my trust in knowledge, it is true. It has never let me down.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

I think we ALL know that PEOPLE are PEOPLE, and will let us down the moment we put our faith in them.



That is probably the weakest argument against knowledge I've ever heard. When you learn something, say algebra, it is not going to choose to abandon you and not be your friend anymore. Knowledge and people are different, just because someone you know let you down, doesn't mean knowledge is a person. That is why we need to use reason, because of arguments like that which don't.

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

A learned individual would know better than to believe everything that is taught in science class. For example, Newtonian gravity is about to be replaced.

Technically it was replaced as soon as Einstein's Theory of Relativity came out. I think that was 1915. Einstein even apologized to Newton although he was long dead at the time.

I think Newtonian physics is mainly still taught to give people a basic understanding of physics before they get into more complex theories. Its like learning Algebra before learning Algebra two, it is all just building blocks.

The reason quantum physics hasn't replaced older models is because it ALMOST always applies only at the quantum level, and would be inadequate, by it's self at least, at describing regular day to day events. That is why people are currently trying to develop a theory that unites Relativity, and Quantum physics.

Edit: Added more...

[This message has been edited by Aft3r ImaGe (edited 08-24-2006).]

I agree parents, teachers etc. tell kids this is true from a young age and the kids are too young to say "whats your proof?" or they just don't care and will believe because they don't want to get a time out. As they get older they've believed in this faith for so long that they think it was just ingrained in them and must be correct, so they will do more for that religion.

It's like the quote from the movie Dogma

" think of religion like a cup, when your a little kid it's small and easy to fill but, as you get older the cup gets bigger and takes more to be filled"

quote:Originally posted by LostCause:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by psychedelicious:

[b]

So why do people have faith in religion?[b]

- I think you're confusing faith with religion. I think if someone lived in a cave without any outside contact from the day they were born they would probably believe in a higher power. Perhaps not "god" but in forces greater than them. I mean, they need to eat, so what brings them food? They need to breathe, but why? They may see the. Sun rise and set or the tides go in and out or the clouds move across the sky and they must wonder what makes all these things move. If they had no knowledge of modern science they would probably assume that these were the workings of a higher power.

But you're just assuming that people will automatically think there is a higher power. The only reason you think this is because someone told you that is what happens. I'm not saying it doesn't, but it goes along with my original idea that faith isn't an intrinsic value of humans and that someone must have implanted religious ideas.

I understand that people of an ancient society could think the sun and clouds were greater beings. They made the decision to think that on their own(well, at least the first person did). But how could a person come up with a religion such as Judaism from seeing the sun rise and set? And why do people accept it as fact without much evidence. I could more easily accept that the sun and moon are gods than accept Christianity.

Also, why do people accept their religion as the right one. I am guessing that most Christians raised in the United States would believe Hinduism to be the right religion if they were raised in India as a Hindu. They would have just as much faith. And that goes for all religions.

quote:Originally posted by kurdt318:

It's like the quote from the movie Dogma

" think of religion like a cup, when your a little kid it's small and easy to fill but, as you get older the cup gets bigger and takes more to be filled"

Is it like this for a reason? Does it take more to be filled because we are smarter? Or is it possible that it takes more because we are more closed-minded?

[This message has been edited by psychedelicious (edited 08-24-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by kurdt318:

I agree parents, teachers etc. tell kids this is true from a young age and the kids are too young to say "whats your proof?" or they just don't care and will believe because they don't want to get a time out. As they get older they've believed in this faith for so long that they think it was just ingrained in them and must be correct, so they will do more for that religion.



"Self propaganda is a form of propaganda and indoctrination performed by an individual or a group on oneself.

Essentially, it is the act of telling yourself (Or a group telling themselves) something that they consider to be true, or to convince themselves, with the unfortunate repercussion of their having no doubts. Because of what they do to themselves, they will go over every aspect of their side of the "argument" to prove to themselves that they are right, and will refuse to look at any alternatives. Self propaganda is a form of self-deception and indoctrination. It functions at individual and social levels: political, economic, and religious. It hides behind partial truths and ignores questions of critical thought."

Hmm...

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

What experience did you have that proved to you the spiritual realm?



Visions (while sober), followed a while later by knowledge of telepathy (which told me then and there that there's more than the accepted physical, and inspired me to strive to prove this to the world) and iffy astral projection (not really going to another realm, but more as an aspect of telepathy), as well as precognitive/explanatory dreams (that weren't sent from above, but by people around me).

And the usually ignored or struck down acid trip (singular)/shroom trips (more than one).

Experience and observation form the basis of my philosophy and mindset.

quote:Originally posted by psychedelicious:

If a person was raised in a lab or something and not told anything about the outside world, he or she wouldn't just magically believe in a certain religion and have faith in it. So why do people believe in these religions. Is it just because some preacher told them about it? What proof did he offer?

If you're thinking, "well someone had to show them about it." Think about Plato's Allegory of the Cave. The people inside the cave had no idea about anything besides what they saw on the wall. Just like a person would have no understanding of a higher being. In the Allegory of the Cave, someone shows them the outside of the cave. He doesn't just tell them of the outside like a preacher, parent, or teacher does with religion.

So why do people have faith in religion? If the person just told the others inside the cave that there was more, do you think they would believe him? and possibly enough to go and tell others about an outside world that they have never seen?

Basically, what I'm trying to say is why do people still have faith in their religions once they reach the high school level. You'd think that educated people wouldn't believe any of it. And why is it that people can believe in a god but completely refuse to accept the possibility of aliens and whatnot. It seems that people only believe the stuff because their parents do.



Depending on how long they were isolated, they may have created their own religion provided their brain and all other things developed normally.