the reason we are here is much more simple than you may think......

you will find that every living being is totally fulfilling their true calling in life......

the purpose of life is ........ to live it and then die.....

there is nothing more to our purpose.

keep up doing what you are doing.......as you are right on track.

you mean the meaning of life.

the meaning of life is to live. and part of living is death. the purpose of life is to know yourself.

you are a little late.

quote:Originally posted by Graemy:

you mean the meaning of life.

the meaning of life is to live. and part of living is death. the purpose of life is to know yourself.

you are a little late.

i am right on time.......by the look of things.......

if i meant the meaning of life.......then maybe i would have said that.

i repeat ........the purpose of life is to live it and then die...

if that is too deep for you.......then so be it.

you have said what i have said. the real reason why we are here you: to live and die me: to live and part of living is death they are the same thing.

you do mean the meaning of life.

i have spent many days in meditation over this a while ago.

what does life mean, life means you are living, and part of living is death ie, you will die. what is life's purpose or why are we alive, to know yourself, essentially your life, and be able to live.

what you said isn't deep. what you are saying is like saying the purpose off a stove is to cook. which isn't true that is the purpose of using a stove. the purpose of a stove is to be able to cook and to know how to cook. it's purpose could even be said to make sure we are fed.



[This message has been edited by Graemy (edited 08-21-2006).]

There is no meaning of life.

that could be said too. life isn't one set thing.

why is it........necessary.........to place so many...........periods between.............the words in your sentence?

william shatner acting

you can only.........say a max.........of..........three words..........dun dun dun

i don't think he knows that it is only supposed to be three dots and not 50 thousand.

[This message has been edited by Graemy (edited 08-22-2006).]

"keep up doing what you are doing........as you are right on track."

So if I'm a serial murderer I should keep it up? Is that, no matter how offensive to our sensibilities, still living?

edit: also, KHAAAAAAAAN!!!

[This message has been edited by karma_sleeper (edited 08-22-2006).]

We are born lost - in a place that is unfamiliar and unknown. In time we learn to walk and talk and interact with this place called the carnal and secular. We grow despite our desire not to - in the turning of time we learn valuable leasons that add to and take away from our character and contenance.

Every day becoming wiser and full of knowledge. Only for what? The reason is to die for the nothing? What a desperate thought.

Even if religion was man made and set a morale standard so high as not be attained but, to run from and disregard as foolishness - you have to see through the pride of man to understand it's purpose.

When man realizes his insignificance to the eternal is when his ego is small enough for him to meet God. Once he sees he knows that his purpose in life was only to get right with God. His purpose is to shed from the tent of the body of bone and sinew and enter into the world of the spirit where all things carnal are left behind leaving the pure man of spirit.

So we toil, thrive and die for what reason? If you understand the love or hate that is in your heart then you will begin to see your spirit man waiting to be poured out into the world. This is the first purpose - to become anew and throw off the old dead ways of the world.

"So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you ar not under the law.

The acts of teh sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that hthose who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law."

GN 5:16-22

The only purpose in this life is to get right with God.



[This message has been edited by Interest (edited 08-22-2006).]

We are born innocent - in a place that we have in some way decided on. In time we learn to walk and talk and interact with this place. We grow and we learn valuable leasons which we teach ourself, adding more to our character and we witness who we are and who we are becoming.



Every day becoming wiser and full of knowledge.

I believe we are here for many reasons, serving many functions for ourselves and others, and one of the primary functions is to act as a witness to ourselves and also to attain a state of peacen, humility, submission, and oneness with God. A chance to be among the triumphant on the day after this test is over.

quote:Originally posted by eBlip:

i am right on time.......by the look of things.......

if i meant the meaning of life.......then maybe i would have said that.

i repeat ........the purpose of life is to live it and then die...

if that is too deep for you.......then so be it.

If....real sentances....are too hard.....for you.....to understand......maybe........your not that......deep.....at all.

why...why...do we always...make fun...of a man...who...who

types...like...this...he...means to say...that...everyone...is on their...chosen course...and everyone...is...moving...towards their...death...

that...is the return...into...nothingness...the...nothingness... from...which we...came...

Heh and all this time I thought the only reason we are here is to live long enough to produce offspring as much as possible, then die.

quote:Originally posted by Sommers88:

Heh and all this time I thought the only reason we are here is to live long enough to produce offspring as much as possible, then die.

I don't think if that was our only purpose we would've developed our brains and hands and stuff in the way that we have. I think fish and bugs got that deal mostly.

Death isn’t a meaning, it’s simply a fatality. Life has no meaning, we are simply here for a number of years and then we die. I don’t even agree with the existential idea of ‘existence precedes essence’ because that meaning is still meaningless in the long run, for once you die that meaning goes with you. The best you can do is find something or some things you enjoy and stick with it/them, therefore fullfilling your own happiness, in my opinion. Be an egoist.

[This message has been edited by Raw_Power (edited 08-22-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Interest:

His purpose is to shed from the tent of the body of bone and sinew and enter into the world of the spirit where all things carnal are left behind leaving the pure man of spirit.



The only purpose in this life is to get right with God.





I have a question for you. Why does this physical world even exist if the only purpose is to break free from it? Is it supposed to be some sort of spiritual training ground? If so, it's not a very good one.

quote:Originally posted by ollo:

I have a question for you. Why does this physical world even exist if the only purpose is to break free from it? Is it supposed to be some sort of spiritual training ground? If so, it's not a very good one.

That is how I have come to understand it. We are in a cacoon - growing and maturing until we are ready or not to enter into real life. During this process we can die in the cacoon or be freed from it.

We are only infants in the spiritual after being "born again" and we learn our spiritual legs and eyes and ears. Remember in the Matrix when Neo was first removed from the Matrix - they were fixing him up and he asked why his eyes hurt so much...the answer was because he never used them before - some have yet to be born to use their spiritual eyes.

Being born again is like realizing all things known are false and the truth is still yet to be revealed. Kind of like the Matrix in a way - though I don't like making the comparison it is the easiest way to describe any of it.

quote:Originally posted by Interest:

That is how I have come to understand it. We are in a cacoon - growing and maturing until we are ready or not to enter into real life. During this process we can die in the cacoon or be freed from it.

We are only infants in the spiritual after being "born again" and we learn our spiritual legs and eyes and ears. Remember in the Matrix when Neo was first removed from the Matrix - they were fixing him up and he asked why his eyes hurt so much...the answer was because he never used them before - some have yet to be born to use their spiritual eyes.

Being born again is like realizing all things known are false and the truth is still yet to be revealed. Kind of like the Matrix in a way - though I don't like making the comparison it is the easiest way to describe any of it.

Yoda believed something similar BUT I don't feel it is so wonderful to demean this beautiful universe and all its wonders by simply stating it is crude matter and there are spirits...rather, that this is the manifestation of the spirit and that all is integrated completely...I don't expect heaven to be some realm of transcendent spirits but rather a literal place, a better Earth.

quote:Originally posted by Interest:

That is how I have come to understand it. We are in a cacoon - growing and maturing until we are ready or not to enter into real life. During this process we can die in the cacoon or be freed from it.

We are only infants in the spiritual after being "born again" and we learn our spiritual legs and eyes and ears. Remember in the Matrix when Neo was first removed from the Matrix - they were fixing him up and he asked why his eyes hurt so much...the answer was because he never used them before - some have yet to be born to use their spiritual eyes.

Being born again is like realizing all things known are false and the truth is still yet to be revealed. Kind of like the Matrix in a way - though I don't like making the comparison it is the easiest way to describe any of it.

What are your thoughts on why this world is so detrimental to its own purpose?

Eblip, I wanna talk to you about mirrors, can you msn me?

classicalhisux@hotmail.com

quote:Originally posted by ollo:

What are your thoughts on why this world is so detrimental to its own purpose?

It's a matter of perspective - you asked for my thoughts which I assume you are asking for my opinion. So this is how I see it.

The earth is a proving ground for souls. Each one has it's free will to go here and there. Albeit there are guidlines and rules that naturally exist within the environment.

FOr example; if you do not work - you don't eat - if you don't eat then you die. It's very simple. There are "natural" consequences for each and every action. I see these as the natural laws of God that govern the earth.

Why have the rules?

Have you ever seen Willy Wonka and the choclate factory?

I see it is alagorical to our purpose here and the purpose of the world.

If there is no testing, how is there a way to know who is worthy?

In the movie, a contest was held - everybody had a chance to win the golden ticket to the choclate factory. This is symbolic to what Jesus did on the cross. He opened a way for everyone to have an opportunity to enter Heaven.

Then those who found tickets in their choclate bars were invited to the choclate factory. Only a few people won -

This is like how only a few people accept Jesus into their lives.

Then after going on a tour through the choclate factory we realized it was all a test to see who could avoid the tempations for only one purpose. Who would inherit the choclate factory.

So, this life and world is a test - the desires of the flesh stand before us as temptations to test our faith. I'm not saying what is right or what is wrong. That is for each man to decide for himself.

What I am saying is that through it all the man of faith and purity is who will be found worthy of the inheritence of the Kingdom of God. Those who are able to listen to the rules and respect and obey the rule maker are the ones who will be deemed worthy.

Earth was put in front of us to test the character of man - it is through these trials we are formed - it is from what we become that decides or eternal.

The world is an obstacle to faith and desigened for that purpose and reason. It is designed as a master test that will eventually pass away with all that is in it because this is not the paradise we are promised.

The human soul is like a crop growing up among weeds - some will be choked and wither while others accept what will keep it alive - there is spiritual food and drink for our souls that pours out onto us from Heaven - the word of God is that which sustains us - some accept it and live while others reject it and die. This earth is only the forum for us to recieve that word - which is opportunity - which is a test perfectly designed to seperate the "wheat from the chaff"

The world is death. There is nothing on it that lives forever. All things die as each of our days are numbered.

There is no detriment to its purpose - all things in life are meant to be detrimental to our salvation - I hope you see that until we can see beyond the carnal we will not be able to see behind it - which is God and the truth of eternity. Jesus gave us a way to the Father - He made it possible for us to access the potential inheritence of being a child of God.

You asked - I told.











[This message has been edited by Interest (edited 08-25-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by karma_sleeper:

"keep up doing what you are doing........as you are right on track."

So if I'm a serial murderer I should keep it up? Is that, no matter how offensive to our sensibilities, still living?





If you were so sick, twisted and unevolved that that would be the best way you could think of to declare Who You Are, yes.

It is the purpose of your soul to announce and declare, to be and to express, to experience and fulfill Who You Really Are.

quote:Originally posted by Interest:

It's a matter of perspective - you asked for my thoughts which I assume you are asking for my opinion. So this is how I see it.

The earth is a proving ground for souls. Each one has it's free will to go here and there. Albeit there are guidlines and rules that naturally exist within the environment.

FOr example; if you do not work - you don't eat - if you don't eat then you die. It's very simple. There are "natural" consequences for each and every action. I see these as the natural laws of God that govern the earth.

Why have the rules?

Have you ever seen Willy Wonka and the choclate factory?

I see it is alagorical to our purpose here and the purpose of the world.

If there is no testing, how is there a way to know who is worthy?

In the movie, a contest was held - everybody had a chance to win the golden ticket to the choclate factory. This is symbolic to what Jesus did on the cross. He opened a way for everyone to have an opportunity to enter Heaven.

Then those who found tickets in their choclate bars were invited to the choclate factory. Only a few people won -

This is like how only a few people accept Jesus into their lives.

Then after going on a tour through the choclate factory we realized it was all a test to see who could avoid the tempations for only one purpose. Who would inherit the choclate factory.

So, this life and world is a test - the desires of the flesh stand before us as temptations to test our faith. I'm not saying what is right or what is wrong. That is for each man to decide for himself.

What I am saying is that through it all the man of faith and purity is who will be found worthy of the inheritence of the Kingdom of God. Those who are able to listen to the rules and respect and obey the rule maker are the ones who will be deemed worthy.

Earth was put in front of us to test the character of man - it is through these trials we are formed - it is from what we become that decides or eternal.

The world is an obstacle to faith and desigened for that purpose and reason. It is designed as a master test that will eventually pass away with all that is in it because this is not the paradise we are promised.

The human soul is like a crop growing up among weeds - some will be choked and wither while others accept what will keep it alive - there is spiritual food and drink for our souls that pours out onto us from Heaven - the word of God is that which sustains us - some accept it and live while others reject it and die. This earth is only the forum for us to recieve that word - which is opportunity - which is a test perfectly designed to seperate the "wheat from the chaff"

The world is death. There is nothing on it that lives forever. All things die as each of our days are numbered.

There is no detriment to its purpose - all things in life are meant to be detrimental to our salvation - I hope you see that until we can see beyond the carnal we will not be able to see behind it - which is God and the truth of eternity. Jesus gave us a way to the Father - He made it possible for us to access the potential inheritence of being a child of God.

You asked - I told.

that just doesn't make very much sense to me. What about the obvious contradictions? Why would God even bother to create anyone who is not worthy? The thing is, he wouldn't- all things originating from the true god are pure. Why would he create a world that is meant to tempt and seduce us away from God's side? Why would he risk the corruption of human souls that were already pure & totally "worthy" in the first place?

Don't you think it's possible that this physical universe is a flawed creation? maybe it wasn't created by the true god, but by some kind of usurper whose intent is to imprison our souls and keep us separated from the true god at all costs? That's what I would conclude based on what you posted. It makes more sense to me. That is, if this place is in fact some sort of "proving ground" that we are supposed to overcome. Of course, it's also possible that this is just a novelty, merely a place for souls to meet & experience each other, and nothing more.

quote:Originally posted by ollo:

that just doesn't make very much sense to me. What about the obvious contradictions? Why would God even bother to create anyone who is not worthy?

When we were created - we were created "worthy" or sin free. Man was created sinfree. It was until we started making decisions and failing the temptations did we begin our journey away from that perfection. Ever since then it has all been about redemption through the ever constant battle between good and evil in our hearts.

The answer to your question is it was not intended to be this way - through our own choices and "free will" did we get to this place. Thanks to God for it.

quote:

The thing is, he wouldn't- all things originating from the true god are pure.

I agree - even free will was perfectly created. What seems like chaos really isn't - He just put things into place and is standing back letting it play out. You make your choices and I make mine. The outcome of our lives is what will testify against us or for us.

quote:

Why would he create a world that is meant to tempt and seduce us away from God's side?

Going back to what I previously said, it was not originally designed for this purpose - but it is through man's sin that keeps him apart from God. It is sin in the world that creates the imperfection to the perfect creation. It is the will of man to make this a place of peace, joy, happiness or not. I hope you see the benevolence of the Almighty for it to be this way. He could of easily said - no free will and pre program our every action and thought.

quote:

Why would he risk the corruption of human souls that were already pure & totally "worthy" in the first place?

We must freely go to Him and freely go away from Him for His judgement to be justified. We choose our own paths. That even goes for the angels if you believe in such a thing.

quote:

Don't you think it's possible that this physical universe is a flawed creation?

It depends on what side you are on I suppose. The winning team in a football game will always say it's much better to win then to lose. Perfection is a matter of perception. The loser will never like their place. To the winner nothing could be better.

quote:

maybe it wasn't created by the true god, but by some kind of usurper whose intent is to imprison our souls and keep us separated from the true god at all costs?

As for the creation this is not true - but as for the enemies of God it is. He created it - gave it a free will and it is the usurper's who descrate it and deny it.

quote:

That's what I would conclude based on what you posted. It makes more sense to me. That is, if this place is in fact some sort of "proving ground" that we are supposed to overcome.

Actually, the truth is the only way to overcome it is to be overcome by it and realize our imperfection and that we will never attain perfection. That is what is required of this test. To become humble enough to accept that God is our master so that we may submit to Him.

Without asking for foregiveness of our failures by the rules He has given there is no way out from our imperfection - which is death.

quote:

Of course, it's also possible that this is just a novelty, merely a place for souls to meet & experience each other, and nothing more.

You could be right - it does seem to be a gamble. There are a lot of well crafted arguements that tear at the existence of God and creation. The purpose is deeper then we think - to be justified as a non-believer requires logic. To be justified as a believer requires faith.

Without God then your last statment is true and it is very easy for us to will God away and leave us to our own carnal desires. From that life is nothing but finding things to pacify the never ending lusts of the body.



[This message has been edited by Interest (edited 08-25-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Interest:

As for the creation this is not true - but as for the enemies of God it is. He created it - gave it a free will and it is the usurper's who descrate it and deny it.

how can you know for sure that this is God's true creation, and not the flawed creation of an usurper?

You should question the whole concept of dualism. "good vs. evil". Consider these possibilities: Evil does not exist in the realm of the true God, it is a flaw, a blemish on the true creation. God himself (or herself?) can't even comprehend evil. The only reason evil can exist is because this realm is so far removed from the true god. In short, evil is not necessary at all, something went horribly wrong. If you consider the possibility that this is a flawed, false creation, then things make more sense. How else could God's will be opposed? Nothing in the true creation could EVER oppose God's will.

Edit:

another point:

doesn't the concept of "original sin" seem really hokey to you? Also, why would God tempt us in the first place? Is God a deceptive prankster? I would hope not. Would God really create a seductive world? no.

[This message has been edited by ollo (edited 08-25-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Interest:

You could be right - it does seem to be a gamble. There are a lot of well crafted arguements that tear at the existence of God and creation. The purpose is deeper then we think - to be justified as a non-believer requires logic. To be justified as a believer requires faith.

Without God then your last statment is true and it is very easy for us to will God away and leave us to our own carnal desires. From that life is nothing but finding things to pacify the never ending lusts of the body.



What is, if any, your conflict with the Qur'an, the book of Islam, which seems to agree with much of what you say?

quote:Originally posted by ollo:

how can you know for sure that this is God's true creation, and not the flawed creation of an usurper?

The nature of the usurper is to destroy and confuse. It is beyond the usurper to create anything but destruction.

quote:

You should question the whole concept of dualism. "good vs. evil". Consider these possibilities: Evil does not exist in the realm of the true God, it is a flaw, a blemish on the true creation.

Hence the reason for the secular..it is a prison of sorts that is a great divide and keeps us from being in the presence of God.

For the very reasons you mentioned. Evil doesn't exist in the realm of the true God..you are right - it was all banished to the earth. (So the story goes)

Everything was intended to be a perfected paradise - but sin entered into it ...

You see it right, imperfection can not exist with perfection.

quote:

God himself (or herself?) can't even comprehend evil. The only reason evil can exist is because this realm is so far removed from the true god. In short, evil is not necessary at all, something went horribly wrong. If you consider the possibility that this is a flawed, false creation, then things make more sense. How else could God's will be opposed?

Free will - unbelief - sin. We have a freewill to be obediant to God's will or be disobedient which is sin.

quote:

Nothing in the true creation could EVER oppose God's will.

I understand that this a personal opinion - I'm curious as to how you came to the conclusion? Is that how you think it should be or is there something you have studied?

quote:

Edit:

another point:

doesn't the concept of "original sin" seem really hokey to you? Also, why would God tempt us in the first place?

God did not tempt Adam and Eve - it was a serpent - which is a manifestation of the devil...it is the devil that tempts us. God lets it happen because God tests us.

quote:

Is God a deceptive prankster? I would hope not. Would God really create a seductive world? no.

He didn't but that is what we turned it into by following temptation to sin instead of following obediance to righteousness. It was our choice. God gave us the earth to subdue and this is what we made of it.



[This message has been edited by Interest (edited 08-26-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

What is, if any, your conflict with the Qur'an, the book of Islam, which seems to agree with much of what you say?

A book is a book - written by the hands of men - I have nothing against any book - who am I to judge?

Jesus taught us that what goes into a man (person) is not what makes them unclean. It is what comes out of them. The Jewish leaders at the time believed in ceremonial cleaning before meals - meaning "garbage in / garbage out" for some reason the Jewish leaders where teaching that what a person consumes makes them evil.

Jesus taught the opposite thus saying that all things created by God are good. Or as Paul wrote - all things are permisable but not all things are beneficial. It is the intent of the heart that determines what label of good or evil we put on it.

The book is not what is holy - it is the truth that is in it which is holy. Paper burns or crumbles to dust over time - but the truth exists forever eternaly.

If somebody flushes the book down the toilet and it makes you want to kill them then the that person has missed the point.

I have nothing against a book - it is the interpretation and application which is harmful. This goes for all religions and beliefs and nothing in particlur.

I'm not a religious person nor do I have a dogmatic lifestyle of ritual and ceremony.

I believe it is couter to faith as dogmatism doesn't require believing in God but only the adherence to rules and regulations set down by man.

Love is the answer and how we interact with others is what is important. The text in a book is only a guide to help us get there. I do not believe "true" love is possible without faith. It all depends on what we serve. Do we serve God or a book?

quote:Originally posted by Interest:

A book is a book - written by the hands of men - I have nothing against any book - who am I to judge?

Jesus taught us that what goes into a man (person) is not what makes them unclean. It is what comes out of them. The Jewish leaders at the time believed in ceremonial cleaning before meals - meaning "garbage in / garbage out" for some reason the Jewish leaders where teaching that what a person consumes makes them evil.

Jesus taught the opposite thus saying that all things created by God are good. Or as Paul wrote - all things are permisable but not all things are beneficial. It is the intent of the heart that determines what label of good or evil we put on it.

The book is not what is holy - it is the truth that is in it which is holy. Paper burns or crumbles to dust over time - but the truth exists forever eternaly.

If somebody flushes the book down the toilet and it makes you want to kill them then the that person has missed the point.

I have nothing against a book - it is the interpretation and application which is harmful. This goes for all religions and beliefs and nothing in particlur.

I'm not a religious person nor do I have a dogmatic lifestyle of ritual and ceremony.

I believe it is couter to faith as dogmatism doesn't require believing in God but only the adherence to rules and regulations set down by man.

Love is the answer and how we interact with others is what is important. The text in a book is only a guide to help us get there. I do not believe "true" love is possible without faith. It all depends on what we serve. Do we serve God or a book?

So you disbelieve in what is written in the Qur'an thus not following what it says?

Do you believe in the day of Ressurection, Judgement Day?

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

So you disbelieve in what is written in the Qur'an thus not following what it says?

How do I put this? No - I do not believe the Qur'an is a Holy book given to us from the prophets of God. We are all brothers and sisters on this planet and the Qur'an only accepts others by convert or death. The Muslim doesn't live at peace with their neighbors.

I don't care what is in the book - because it is the action that springs from it is what testify's to it's truth.

Nearly every major conflict on the globe today has one side as muslims practicing their "religion of peace" -0

A book is nothing and the heart and action are everything. Don't hide behind a book because you can quote passages all day long. Until it is applied to one's heart does it matter. It is the outcome of applying a religion to your life that testifies to it as being good or evil in ones life. Budhists, Hindu, Muslim, etc... Where do these things lead one to?

Because a Muslim believes that every non muslim is a dog, a pig or a monkey or whatever justifies the cutting of throats when they don't convert or wearing explosives into crowded markets in the name of Allah. What can you possibly say to justify any kind of truth in the Islamic faith when the Jihadists are murdering innocent life?

Never mind - I'm sure you'll say something like they deserve it because they are on our holy land or something...



quote:

Do you believe in the day of Ressurection, Judgement Day?

I don't think you understood what I posted.

Firstly, I'm no judge over my fellow man - everyone believes in their own thing - how do you tell a man that his perspective in life is wrong when that is all he knows?

How do you tell a man to follow a book when it literally takes an act of God to reveal it to them?

I do not pledge obediance to a book per say but I do know that the laws are designed to lead us to freedom. Once we arrive there then the laws are no longer on a piece of paper but written in our hearts.

As a Christian I obviously believe in the resurected Christ and judgement day. However, your question was obviously a jab setting me up for the next blow - so swing away....

quote:Originally posted by Interest

I don't care what is in the book - because it is the action that springs from it is what testify's to it's truth.

Shouldn't you feel that way about the Bible due to the Crusades, the Inquisition, Biblical justification for people to own slaves over the years, etc.?

quote:Originally posted by Martini:

Originally posted by Interest

I don't care what is in the book - because it is the action that springs from it is what testify's to it's truth.

Shouldn't you feel that way about the Bible due to the Crusades, the Inquisition, Biblical justification for people to own slaves over the years, etc.?

Certainly I do - I hold no exemptions - history is history though. Have we learned from our lessons? Did we realize that maybe we were misguided during those times? Although I do not see any man advancing the kingdom of God by the sword. What those events were is man advancing the ideals of man and hiding behind religion to justify it.

Secular war is advanced for secular reasons. The true kingdom of God is spiritual and that is advanced by God. I don't see any war in history that has benefited the kingdom of Heaven. All war I have seen has only benefited man and for that reason is why it is suspect of being anti-religious in my mind.

I will always agree with the "a tree is known by it's fruit" parable and this is no different. God will judge according to the inent of the heart and mind. Because it is from the wellspring of the heart and mind where the truth will be.

You, me or anyone else is not able to discern those things as it is only that man and God that know the thoughts and intent of that man.



Have you ever heard about the story of the wolf in lambskin? It's something like that. If I showed up at church one day and they were saying go kill the Jews for God..I would certainly get out as fast as possible.





[This message has been edited by Interest (edited 08-28-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Interest

Certainly I do - I hold no exemptions - history is history though. Have we learned from our lessons?

No, we haven't.

Either way, you specifically said: "it is the action that springs from it is what testify's to it's truth."

What if were having this converation during the time of the Crusades? Wouldn't it then have testified to the Bible's truth? If it didn't pass the test then, it wouldn't miraculously become a book of truth in the future, would it?

BTW, there are slave owners in the world right now using the Bible as justification, people are committing violence against and even killing homosexuals and using the Bible as justification, etc.

If you're going to throw the Quran out due to horrible actions that have sprung fourth, it would only make sense to throw the Bible out with it.



quote:Originally posted by Interest

If I showed up at church one day and they were saying go kill the Jews for God..I would certainly get out as fast as possible.

What if they read this in your church?:

If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

42

quote:Originally posted by Martini:

Either way, you specifically said: "it is the action that springs from it is what testify's to it's truth."

What if were having this converation during the time of the Crusades? Wouldn't it then have testified to the Bible's truth? If it didn't pass the test then, it wouldn't miraculously become a book of truth in the future, would it?

BTW, there are slave owners in the world right now using the Bible as justification, people are committing violence against and even killing homosexuals and using the Bible as justification, etc.

If you're going to throw the Quran out due to horrible actions that have sprung fourth, it would only make sense to throw the Bible out with it.

What if they read this in your church?:

If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

I agree with Martini here.

Also I find that it is quite unfair of you to judge a book by the actions of people who do not follow it but only claim to follow it. Judge the book by what is in the text of it. Islam would indeed by a religion of peace if people followed what is written and it is not fair in my opinion to simply throw out the book due to the actions of people who claim to follow it.

I really dislike alot of your ideas, Interest, and your strange support for the Bible and then sudden rejection of texts?

The Qur'an, in my opinion, is a much better text than the Old and New Testament, it is much more clear and directive, and in my opinion, it is generally an excellent book. I am not sure you have ever read it but you should compare it to the text in the Old and New Testament and see which is more clear in its message. The Qur'an has an extremely clear message but you will turn away in a claim that no one has a right to judge, yet you judge that the Qur'an is not from God based on the actions of people who claim to follow it? What?

Once again it is extremely wrong in my opinion to judge religions based on the actions of those who claim to follow the religion rather than the main text of the Religion.

Judge Judaism by the Torah

Judge Christianity by the New Testament

Judge Islam by the Qur'an

Judge Hinduism by the Vedas

Judge Buddhism by the teachings of Buddha

Judge Zoroastrianism by the teachings of Zoroaster

Judge Scientology by the writings of L. Ron Hubbard

Judge Mormonism by the book of Mormon

If a person disobeys their religion, they are not following their religion, nor are they representing it, you can't judge their religion based on their disobedience to it! Why would you?



[This message has been edited by Abrahim (edited 08-28-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Martini:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by [b]Interest

Certainly I do - I hold no exemptions - history is history though. Have we learned from our lessons?

No, we haven't.

quote:

Either way, you specifically said: "it is the action that springs from it is what testify's to it's truth."

You misunderstood what I was saying - you are stating that the bible causes people to do these things - that isn't what I said.

What I said is people do those things and then hide behind the bible as justification.

I know it is going to be difficult to get to the understanding but, there is no justification if what one does is opposite to what the bible teaches.

quote:

What if were having this converation during the time of the Crusades? Wouldn't it then have testified to the Bible's truth?



I find it interesting that you are taking this stance. I see the crusades as a secular event driven by men for whatever justifcations they have - I do not believe they looked into the bible and said the muslim must die because of James 5:1-10 or whatever. War is a man made event - because they believe in whatever justification that drives them to war is another thing.

quote:

If it didn't pass the test then, it wouldn't miraculously become a book of truth in the future, would it?

You are taking one event and judgeing all of Christianity by it. Zeal is also included as a not so good thing in the bible.

Jesus did not associate Himself with militants in His time. Much of Israel wanted to overthrow the Roman occupation. They thought Jesus was who was going to lead them into battle. We found out that the kingdom Jesus was establishing was not of this world.

World domination therefore is unbiblical - it is a desire of men not God.

quote:

BTW, there are slave owners in the world right now using the Bible as justification, people are committing violence against and even killing homosexuals and using the Bible as justification, etc.

They are claiming they are doing the works of God because of their own imagination and misinterpretation. Nowhere in the bible in the new covenent does it speak about killing others because of their sin. Stoneing ended with Jesus. The bible is a complex thing and easily misunderstood.

quote:

If you're going to throw the Quran out due to horrible actions that have sprung fourth, it would only make sense to throw the Bible out with it.

The difference is in the heart - beyond that I can say nothing else. If you believe all religious beliefs are wrong or evil I can not convince you otherwise.

I can only look at the outcome of a person or society to see the truth of what they believe in.

If you believe the bible should be banned then so be it - those times are coming despite anything I say here.

quote:



[QUOTE]Originally posted by [b]Interest

If I showed up at church one day and they were saying go kill the Jews for God..I would certainly get out as fast as possible.

quote:

What if they read this in your church?:

If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

They would put it in context and realize this was Levitical law handed to the Jewish people - the civil laws given to Israel were changed with Jesus. We no longer stone people for sin. That passage was intended for the Jewish people at that time thousands of years ago. We live under a new covenent today.

[This message has been edited by Interest (edited 08-28-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Interest

You misunderstood what I was saying - you are stating that the bible causes people to do these things - that isn't what I said.

What I said is people do those things and then hide behind the bible as justification.

Oh, I see. When it comes to Muslims doing bad things, it has sprung forth from the Quran. When Christians do bad things, they are hiding behind the Bible. That's quite an interesting stance you've taken there.