My friend and I were discussing random things. At some point he said that Mohammad assasinated poets that satirized or criticized Islam. I checked his info frokm the wikipedia and it seems he was right.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_'Afak http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asma_bint_Marwan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ka'b_ibn_al-Ashraf

What the f___?

Do you muslims have anything to say about these incidents?

I'm pretty neutral towards muslims, but If these stories are true I must consider Mohammed evil and his religion as a threat to freedom of speech and many other rights.

How can one be a peace and freedom of speech loving muslim and still believe in a religion made by a guy(or God) who kills people just for disagreeing and satirizing.

ZIP IT!

Firstly I don't believe in the histories of Muhammed written several centuries after he existed by people who never knew him.

I don't believe he killed people who mocked the religion as the Qur'an mentions people mocking the religion and it says to leave them alone.

Muslims to this day are often seen as Anti Freedom of Speech. Christians too were at one time heavilly anti freedom of speech.

I don't believe the Bible or the Qur'an say to kill people who mock religion or to block freedom of speech.

quote:originally posted by Abrahim

Muslims to this day are often seen as Anti Freedom of Speech.

And millions of muslims are anti freedom of speech. Sharia law does not allow freedom of speech on such matters as criticism of the prophet Muhammad. Don't forget about Salman Rushdie and the recent cartoon fiasco. I'm not talking about just a few fringe groups here. Freedom of speech, music and art has been trampled upon throughout Islam's history.

[This message has been edited by Martini (edited 08-24-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

ZIP IT!

Firstly I don't believe in the histories of Muhammed written several centuries after he existed by people who never knew him.

I don't believe he killed people who mocked the religion as the Qur'an mentions people mocking the religion and it says to leave them alone.

Muslims to this day are often seen as Anti Freedom of Speech. Christians too were at one time heavilly anti freedom of speech.

I don't believe the Bible or the Qur'an say to kill people who mock religion or to block freedom of speech.



Okay now, to add on to this, Wikipedia articles can be edited by ANYONE, ANYWHERE. A lot of the time their articles are incorrect in many ways. No, Muhammad did not kill people who critized(sp) Islam, and that's based on the thousands of different books/scriptures that people wrote about his life in that era.

quote:Originally posted by Martini:

And millions of muslims are anti freedom of speech. Sharia law does not allow freedom of speech on such matters as criticism of the prophet Muhammad. Don't forget about Salman Rushdie and the recent cartoon fiasco. I'm not talking about just a few fringe groups here. Freedom of speech, music and art has been trampled upon throughout Islam's history.

That's completely true with the cartoon fiasco and all, and yet, people in America couldn't do shit about it mainly because the law prohibited us from doing anything besides speaking. Which we did do.

[This message has been edited by anonymouslyaware (edited 08-25-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Martini:

And millions of muslims are anti freedom of speech. Sharia law does not allow freedom of speech on such matters as criticism of the prophet Muhammad. Don't forget about Salman Rushdie and the recent cartoon fiasco. I'm not talking about just a few fringe groups here. Freedom of speech, music and art has been trampled upon throughout Islam's history.



I suppose freedom of speech encompasses the freedom for Muslims to complain about imagery which insulted them and call for it to be banned.

It wasn't so much that it was about Muhammed, but rather that it showed Arabs in a bad light, somewhat stereotypical and prejudiced, an arab with a turban and a sword and a scraggly beard and an angry expression often insult the arab people. Arabs protested at the depiction of Arabs in Alladin as well. The Muhammed thing was not the main issue, as if it had shown Muhammed and Arabs in an extremely positive light, I don't really believe huge riots would've occured. Pictures of Muhammed are produced elsewhere and are not shown in an insulting way that insults arabs and they have not protested. The issue was that of Ethnic Prejudice towards Arabs, the propagation of a Negative Stereotype which the arab people did not take kindly to, so they rioted and protested. They spoke out against it, which freedom of speech allowed, but they should be made clear that the real underlying issue was the ethnic prejudice they saw in it, the way it depicted not only their Prophet but the Arab People.

____________________________________________

The Qur'an says nothing about rioting or protesting insults to a Prophet but rather says to leave those who will blind themselves with insults to be dealt with later, and to continue on the straight course to God by doing right and being upright and righteous and good.

Perhaps it's not too late for you Martini man, want to come back?

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim

I suppose freedom of speech encompasses the freedom for Muslims to complain about imagery which insulted them and call for it to be banned.

That sure is twisting things. Yes, freedom of speech encompasses the freedom for Muslims to complain about imagery which insulted them and call for it to be banned. But Sharia law specifically takes away the right to criticize the prophet Muhammad.



quote:Originally posted by Abrahim

The Qur'an says nothing about...

Most of the answers you give here concerning Islam are incomplete or inaccurate because you only go to the Quran as a reference.

I know you that you reject all hadith, but you are in a small minority of Muslims that do. When someone asks a question regarding Islam, you give only your Quran only answer, and don't give the correct answer on what it is that the majority of Muslims around the world believe.

quote:Originally posted by Martini:

Originally posted by Abrahim

I suppose freedom of speech encompasses the freedom for Muslims to complain about imagery which insulted them and call for it to be banned.

That sure is twisting things. Yes, freedom of speech encompasses the freedom for Muslims to complain about imagery which insulted them and call for it to be banned. But Sharia law specifically takes away the right to criticize the prophet Muhammad.



quote:Originally posted by Abrahim

The Qur'an says nothing about...

Most of the answers you give here concerning Islam are incomplete or inaccurate because you only go to the Quran as a reference.

I know you that you reject all hadith, but you are in a small minority of Muslims that do. When someone asks a question regarding Islam, you give only your Quran only answer, and don't give the correct answer on what it is that the majority of Muslims around the world believe.

True, I reject all Hadith and give only the Qur'anic answer and not all people who call themselves Muslim follow the Qur'an but rather they follow Hadith and what those in a position of more "spiritual authority and knowledge" tell them, often based on the Hadith rather than the Qur'an. The Qur'an warns of such a phenomenon and the Hadith often brings in ideas which are not in the Qur'an or contradictory to the Qur'an, and I find that those who follow the Qur'an are on the right path, those who follow other books which where written centuries after the death of Muhammed by people who had no direct connection or knowledge of him, should be discounted as the Qur'an is sufficient and clear. The Qur'an is where the religion of Islam is mentioned and the word Muslim and it is what gives all the information on how to be one. Interested in Islam? Look to the Qur'an. Interested in Islam based sects such as the Sunni and Shi'a? Look to their additional books of their own manufactor.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

It wasn't so much that it was about Muhammed, but rather that it showed Arabs in a bad light, somewhat stereotypical and prejudiced, an arab with a turban and a sword and a scraggly beard and an angry expression often insult the arab people.



And what a better way to react than verify this very picture?

Face it, the muslim religion is as stupid as christianity with the additional fault that it makes christians look good.

quote:Originally posted by elfstone:

And what a better way to react than verify this very picture?

Face it, the muslim religion is as stupid as christianity with the additional fault that it makes christians look good.



Evidence to support what you just stated? I don't think so.

quote:Originally posted by anonymouslyaware:



Evidence to support what you just stated? I don't think so.

If you need more evidence than the actual texts of the "holy" books, then you got a problem.

quote:Originally posted by elfstone:

If you need more evidence than the actual texts of the "holy" books, then you got a problem.

Give me some proof that Islam is "just as stupid as Christianity with the additional fault that it makes christians look good"

Idiot.

quote:Originally posted by elfstone:

If you need more evidence than the actual texts of the "holy" books, then you got a problem.

? Islam, in its SINGULAR Holy Text, The Qur'an, states that:

God is One, Surrounding and Encompassing Everything.

God is no one's father and is no one's son, God is far beyond the things people claim. God has no children, God is the singular creator on which all things depend, God is Reality, closer to you than your jugular vein.

That everyone will be judged after they die, those who spent their life doing bad will be rewarded justly, those who spent their life doing good will be rewarded justly.

So what in this is so absurd to you that it somehow makes Christianity seem better to you?

Christian beliefs state that The only way to reach heaven is to believe that Jesus Christ is the begotten Son of God who died on the cross for the sins of all mankind. God is One but Three, A Triune composed of The Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit, three distinct incarnations or aspects of the One God.

Does that make more sense to you? Have you ever taken a moment to properly compare the beliefs of the two religions? Have you ever put the New Testament up against the Qur'an and read them comparitively?

What is your aversion towards Islam Elfstone? Is it Terrorism? I guarantee that Terrorists are not following the religion that is displayed within the Qur'an nor are they following its prescriptions.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:



What is your aversion towards Islam Elfstone? Is it Terrorism? I guarantee that Terrorists are not following the religion that is displayed within the Qur'an nor are they following its prescriptions.

What are they following then? I think you are having a hard time accepting the truth. http://answering-islam.org.uk/Quran/Themes/jihad_passages.html

Fight, kill, war. It goes on and on about it. But no, you're right, the terrorists have gotten it all wrong, it says "fight" but it really means "god is the universe". Ridiculous.

Also, http://www .telegraph .co.uk/new s/main.jht ml;jsessio nid=UOZS0E 2S1JFZRQFI QMGCFFOAVC BQUIV0?xml=/news/2006/08/25/wpakistan25.xml

Giving women rights is against Islam apparently.

Of course, the bible isn't free of such BS. But it's such a mess of contradictions that a more tolerant society can emerge without its rejection. It's hardly the same with Islam, when even the most modern muslim nation, Turkey, is still plagued by human rights violations.

anonymouslyaware: I just did. Moron.

quote:Originally posted by elfstone:

What are they following then? I think you are having a hard time accepting the truth. ht tp://answe ring-islam.org.uk/Quran/Themes/jihad_passages.html (http: //answerin g-islam.or g.uk/Quran /Themes/ji had_passag es.html)

Fight, kill, war. It goes on and on about it. But no, you're right, the terrorists have gotten it all wrong, it says "fight" but it really means "god is the universe". Ridiculous.

Also, http://www .telegraph .co.uk/new s/main.jht ml;jsessio nid=UOZS0E 2S1JFZRQFI QMGCFFOAVC BQUIV0?xml=/news/2006/08/25/wpakistan25.xml

Giving women rights is against Islam apparently.

Of course, the bible isn't free of such BS. But it's such a mess of contradictions that a more tolerant society can emerge without its rejection. It's hardly the same with Islam, when even the most modern muslim nation, Turkey, is still plagued by human rights violations.

anonymouslyaware: I just did. Moron.

BAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!

You're another dumbshit Islamophobe. Shoot yourself please.

quote:Originally posted by Loc Dogg:

BAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!

You're another dumbshit Islamophobe. Shoot yourself please.

Elfstone has presented what I feel is a valid criticism of your faith. Rather than mock him, perhaps you can respond to some of his allegations. I too struggle to see Islam as a peaceful religion (although I recognize that there are good and bad muslims, just as there are good and bad Christians).

Here are a couple passages I noticed when looking over elfstone's list:

K 9:005

Set 33, Count 91

So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

K 9:029

Set 38, Count 101

Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

Is the Quran not advocating the murder of nonbelievers?

quote:Originally posted by jsaxton14:

Elfstone has presented what I feel is a valid criticism of your faith. Rather than mock him, perhaps you can respond to some of his allegations. I too struggle to see Islam as a peaceful religion (although I recognize that there are good and bad muslims, just as there are good and bad Christians).

Here are a couple passages I noticed when looking over elfstone's list:

K 9:005

Set 33, Count 91

So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

K 9:029

Set 38, Count 101

Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

Is the Quran not advocating the murder of nonbelievers?

Valid criticism, LMAO!

http://www.submission.org/terrorism.html

quote:Originally posted by Loc Dogg:

Valid criticism, LMAO!

http ://www.sub mission.or g/terroris m.html (http: //www.subm ission.org /terrorism .html)



Right, so thanks for presenting the contradictions of the Qur'an. The terrorists still justify themselves in the Qur'an. I don't think you need more reasons to reject a text than the effect it has on people.

And Islamophobe? Please...all stupid beliefs scare me, not just islamic ones.

quote:Originally posted by jsaxton14:

Elfstone has presented what I feel is a valid criticism of your faith. Rather than mock him, perhaps you can respond to some of his allegations. I too struggle to see Islam as a peaceful religion (although I recognize that there are good and bad muslims, just as there are good and bad Christians).

Here are a couple passages I noticed when looking over elfstone's list:

K 9:005

Set 33, Count 91

So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

K 9:029

Set 38, Count 101

Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

Is the Quran not advocating the murder of nonbelievers?

I've explained this all thoroughly in my Interested in Islam Ask Questions Here thread a while back.

The word Jihad doesnt mean fight, it means to Strive (in the way of God) and is primarilly used in reference to doing good, giving charity, praying regularly which I showed in my thread...Also the Qur'an gives the terms of war, a Muslim is not allowed to START a war, conflict, or agressions, a Muslim is not allowed to make an attack unless war has been declared by the opposition openly and it is official. A Muslim is to take a Peace Treaty whenever it is offered.

The Muslims in those revelations were fighting in a state of self defense and openly declared war by the enemies, this is recorded in military histories from the actual time and in the Qur'an, they followed the rules of war as told by the Qur'an.

A muslim can not shout, scream, swear, or even hit anyone, unless in urgent need or in self defense against danger or threat of death. A muslim can not kill unless in direct self defense and self preservation such as being confronted and someone attempting to kill them or on a battlefield during an openly declared war. A muslim can not kill bystandards or civillians but only people who are attacking them on a battlefield or anyone who is attempting to kill them.

Unreasonable? I don't think so. The Qur'an makes those rules pretty clear but if some people choose not to follow them it is not the Qur'ans fault.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim

A muslim can not shout, scream, swear, or even hit anyone, unless in urgent need or in self defense against danger or threat of death. A muslim can not kill unless in direct self defense and self preservation such as being confronted and someone attempting to kill them or on a battlefield during an openly declared war.

You saying that doesn't make it true. The Quran clearly shows that you can beat your wife when she is disobedient and send her to her bed. That is not hitting in self defense.

The Quran says, "fight those who do not believe in Allah". You can twist that to mean to fight in self defense, but you'd clearly be doing that in an attempt to prove Islam a religion of peace. If you want to talk about recorded military histories, I can show you how Muhammad killed those who would not convert.

quote:So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them

Again, this clearly tells what to do to "idolaters", not about killing in self defense. Ambushing idolaters is not self defense. Letting them free only if they pray and pay the poor-rate, sure sounds like compulsion to me.

quote:Originally posted by Loc Dogg:

Valid criticism, LMAO!

http ://www.sub mission.or g/terroris m.html (http: //www.subm ission.org /terrorism .html)



That is not a rebuttal. You're simply stating, "Look! I found a link with passages that contradict what you just posted!"

Simply because the Quran states "... and do not aggress; GOD dislikes the aggressors." Doesn't mean it does not also state "Fight those who do not believe in Allah."

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

The Muslims in those revelations were fighting in a state of self defense and openly declared war by the enemies, this is recorded in military histories from the actual time and in the Qur'an, they followed the rules of war as told by the Qur'an.

It seems to me that the ninth book of the Quran is a set of rules for dealing with nonbelievers. It is not obvious to me that it is written from the perspective of a group of Muslims fighting in self defense.

However, the first verse does state, "Freedom from obligation (is proclaimed) from Allah and His messenger toward those of the idolaters with whom ye made a treaty."

How does the Muslim community as a whole make a treaty with a group of "idolaters?"

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

I've explained this all thoroughly in my Interested in Islam Ask Questions Here thread a while back.

......



Unreasonable? I don't think so. The Qur'an makes those rules pretty clear but if some people choose not to follow them it is not the Qur'ans fault.

Thing is Abrahim, your credibility is damaged when you make statements that seem to say you know better than anyone else. You know better than the millions of other muslims who interpret the Koran other than the way you do? As a means then of determining credibility one thinks about motivation, does it come from the heart or from a vested interest. Remember the adage "nobody cares how much you know until they know how much you care".

In another thread I asked you about this, whether you cared that so many people who never had the opportunity to beleive in Allah will be condemned to a terrible eternity of suffering. Here is a part of your reply:

quote: When we die either we are ressurected as I say, or we remain dead forever, never to return.

If the Qur'an is true and we are ressurected then we face judgement and those who did good will get a good reward and those who did bad will get a horrible punishment.

If the Qur'an is wrong and we are not ressurected then we don't face judgement and those who did good will remain dead and those who did bad will remain dead.

What you believe to be an inordinate and unjust punishment is not a reason for me to defy what the more powerful party says: I'm saving my skin, literally, if the Qur'an is true, and if it's not, big deal, I'm dead anyway.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/Forum15/HTML/005445-5.html

Your response clearly shows your motivation comes from fear, you are 'saving your skin', and that because of fear of an incorporeal being of whom you have no 'real' proof.

quote:To worship God even for the sake of salvation or any other reward is equally degenerate. Love knows no reward. (Sri Swami Vivekananda)

This is not a put down Abrahim, it is an attempt to explain why in spite of your obvious abilities you are less than convincing. Something happens to the human brain when one allows fear to rule. It switches off the higher powers of consciousness and one operates from the 'reptilian brain' in a constant state of fight or flight. The knowledge, the insights, the bliss, available at higher levels of 'primate' brain use, are not available to one who fears anything -- especially an omnipotent being who will burn your skin off in hell, then cause it to regrow so that it can be burned off again and again for eternity!

Here is some information that will help to explain how fear affects one's thinking in dramatic and all too often catastrophic ways. I sincerely hope you will thoughtfully consider it. http://www.neilslade.com/Papers/fear.html

Namaste http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Martini:

Again, this clearly tells what to do to "idolaters", not about killing in self defense. Ambushing idolaters is not self defense. Letting them free only if they pray and pay the poor-rate, sure sounds like compulsion to me.

The Qur'an states that you can not raise your hand to hit another person unless in self defense, and that one should always restrain their anger and be forgiving, patient, and kind.

The Qur'an does not allow wife beating, the word translated as beat is Darb, which is used to refer to sex which is what the revelation is about...it says if your wife doesn't want to have sex, leave her alone, you can try to convince her, but if she doesn't want it then don't, and then after a while you can return to bed with her and try, but once again if she doesn't want it then don't. This was translated incorrectly to imply that one should beat their wife, which is very wrong and other revelations in the Qur'an clearly make sure that it is understood that beating and abuse in any form is extremely wrong.

Its very easy to take things out of context by not reading entire revelations, the Qur'an did not say to kill idolaters during a time of peace and non war, the Qur'an clearly states that this should occur during a time of openly declared war, which is exactly what the Meccans, the Idolaters, had done, then in later revelations a peace treaty was made and the hostilities stopped and it told them not to re erupt hostilities unless the enemy breaks the treaty by attacking.

This has been asked before in my Islam thread and both questions were answered there as well perhaps with more quotes.

quote:Originally posted by jsaxton14:

It seems to me that the ninth book of the Quran is a set of rules for dealing with nonbelievers. It is not obvious to me that it is written from the perspective of a group of Muslims fighting in self defense.

However, the first verse does state, "Freedom from obligation (is proclaimed) from Allah and His messenger toward those of the idolaters with whom ye made a treaty."

How does the Muslim community as a whole make a treaty with a group of "idolaters?"

Because it's not talking about all idolaters of the entire universe, it was talking about "the idolaters" the meccans who had declared war on the Muslims who at that time were a community not spread out extremely far. Then the Meccans performed acts of war such as ejecting people from their homes and attempting to kill people, the Qur'an gave the people the ability to defend themselves in this time of open war, the Muslims did.

quote:Originally posted by redzed:

This is not a put down Abrahim, it is an attempt to explain why in spite of your obvious abilities you are less than convincing. Something happens to the human brain when one allows fear to rule. It switches off the higher powers of consciousness and one operates from the 'reptilian brain' in a constant state of fight or flight. The knowledge, the insights, the bliss, available at higher levels of 'primate' brain use, are not available to one who fears anything -- especially an omnipotent being who will burn your skin off in hell, then cause it to regrow so that it can be burned off again and again for eternity!

Here is some information that will help to explain how fear affects one's thinking in dramatic and all too often catastrophic ways. I sincerely hope you will thoughtfully consider it. htt p://www.ne ilslade.co m/Papers/f ear.html (http: //www.neil slade.com/ Papers/fea r.html)

Namaste http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

I don't believe that believing in karma, retribution, or recompense for actions always interferes with the state of being in bliss. After we die, we'll see which one of our bets is right. You won't have the opportunity to say that you weren't warned if I'm right. If you're right then we're both safe.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:



The Qur'an does not allow wife beating, the word translated as beat is Darb, which is used to refer to sex which is what the revelation is about...it says if your wife doesn't want to have sex, leave her alone, you can try to convince her, but if she doesn't want it then don't, and then after a while you can return to bed with her and try, but once again if she doesn't want it then don't. This was translated incorrectly to imply that one should beat their wife, which is very wrong and other revelations in the Qur'an clearly make sure that it is understood that beating and abuse in any form is extremely wrong.

You are 100% wrong and have been listening to Muslim apologists again.

From three of the most respected translators of the Quran:

quote:YUSUFALI: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).

PICKTHAL: Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.

SHAKIR: Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

Please don't tell me that you believe all three of these translators are misunderstanding that the Quran is saying that if your wife disobeys you, you should have sex with her. A good friend of mine is an Egyptian doctor who understands classical Arabic very well and he has assured me that there is no other way to interpret the verse other than promoting the beating of your wife.



quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:



the Qur'an clearly states that this should occur during a time of openly declared war

No, not at all. There are no provisions that it is only okay to kill "idolaters" during war time.

quote:Originally posted by Martini:

Please don't tell me that you believe all three of these translators are misunderstanding that the Quran is saying that if your wife disobeys you, you should have sex with her. A good friend of mine is an Egyptian doctor who understands classical Arabic very well and he has assured me that there is no other way to interpret the verse other than promoting the beating of your wife.



Originally posted by Abrahim:



the Qur'an clearly states that this should occur during a time of openly declared war

No, not at all. There are no provisions that it is only okay to kill "idolaters" during war time.

Yes in fact there are, that is why there is a distinction not to kill during a time of peace or when there is a treaty and also not to start aggression or attacks, not to be prodigals, not to attack first, etc. These issues were discussed in my Islam thread and quotes were used. It is not Ok to kill anyone if they do not attack first and declare open war. The Qur'an is specific about that, in times of non war and non aggression one is to simply ignore disbelievers, if one must do business with them, then do business with them justly and fairly.

Yes, All three Translators mistranslated the word Darb and the intent of the revelation. The Qur'an does not allow abuse.

"Here is Ahmed Ali's translation of the passage in question:

As for women you feel are averse,

talk to them suasively;

then leave them alone in bed (without molesting them)

and go to bed with them (when they are willing).

This understanding is explained in this footnote to the verse:

For the three words fa-‘izu, wa-hjuru, and wa-dribu in the original, here translated 'talk to them suasively,' 'leave them alone (in bed—fi 'l-madaji‘),' and 'have intercourse,' respectively, see Raghib, Lisan al-‘Arab,and Zamakhshari. Raghib in his al-Mufradat fi gharib al-Qur’an gives the meanings of these words with special reference to this verse. ... Raghib points out that daraba metaphorically means to have intercourse, and quotes the expression daraba al-fahl al-naqah "the stud camel covered the she-camel," which is also quoted by Lisan al-‘Arab. It cannot be taken here to mean 'to strike them (women).' This view is strengthened by the Prophet's authentic hadith found in a number of authorities, including Bukhari and Muslim: "Could any of you beat your wife as he would a slave, and then lie with her in the evening?" There are other traditions in Abu Da’ud, Nasa’i, Ibn Majah, Ahmad ibn Hanbal, and others, to the effect that he forbade the beating of any woman, saying: "Never beat God's handmaidens."

The "idrib" stage in the process follows temporary separation of the spouses: notice how among the many meanings of the verb daraba, there are the meanings 'to separate' and 'to mingle'. The sense of separation relates back to the verb uhjur immediately preceding, while the senses of inclining towards, mingling, settling down, and having sex are looking ahead to the marital reconciliation (tawfîq) in the next verse. This is a good example of the extremely subtle, intricate intertwining of meanings in the Arabic words of the Qur’ân, which is lost in translation. The guidance in this verse is part of a process for reconciling marital problems. After the husband has made it clear to his wife what he expects of their relationship (and presumably the wife has made her thoughts on it clear to him, also), it's time to kiss and make up. See what beautiful guidance Allah is giving husbands and wives here. We know from other hadiths that encourage sacred sex in Islam that Allah is happy when husband and wife have sexual intercourse, and they are showered with spiritual blessings when they do."

http://www.penkatali.org/wife.html

You can respond to this in the other thread in which this issue was brought up, there I have more quotes proving the Qur'an's stance on Equality for men and women.



[This message has been edited by Abrahim (edited 09-01-2006).]

You are clearly choosing the translation you like best and not being intellectually honest. Why do you choose this translation among the rest? Do you realize everything in parenthesis are his words added to the quran?

Here are six translators all saying the verse is telling you to beat your wife:

http://answering-islam.org/Silas/wife-beating.htm

Ask any Arabic speaking person to translate the verse for you and you will hear the same thing.

quote:041.003

YUSUFALI: A Book, whereof the verses are explained in detail;- a Qur'an in Arabic, for people who understand;-

PICKTHAL: A Scripture whereof the verses are expounded, a Lecture in Arabic for people who have knowledge,

SHAKIR: A Book of which the verses are made plain, an Arabic Quran for a people who know

Allah was wrong again. It's not so clear to all, or is it?

Here is an explanation from someone who understands Arabic:

quote:The Arabic word idribohunna Driven from the root word Darab Does not have any other meaning than Beat. Idriboohunna أضربوهن means beat them (for female plural).

Is this hitting in self defense?:

quote:024.002

YUSUFALI: The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.

PICKTHAL: The adulterer and the adulteress, scourge ye each one of them (with) a hundred stripes. And let not pity for the twain withhold you from obedience to Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a party of believers witness their punishment.

SHAKIR: (As for) the fornicatress and the fornicator, flog each of them, (giving) a hundred stripes, and let not pity for them detain you in the matter of obedience to Allah, if you believe in Allah and the last day, and let a party of believers witness their chastisement.

hopefully that will encourage people not to perform adultry and betray their marriage contracts but there is no alternative translation in that case, but my definition for darb still stands because of what the revelation is talking about.

This is from the other thread I posted on this same topic:

Now you know I disagree with hadiths, but I do agree with this translation and the meaning of darb in this situation. The Qur'an elsewhere says not to hit people, or abuse people, or force people to do anything.

Quran 3:195 tells us :

"Their Lord responded to them: "I never fail to reward any worker among you for any work you do, be you MALE OR FEMALE, YOU ARE EQUAL TO ONE ANOTHER........."

The spiritual equality between men and women is reiterated in 4:124, as follows:

"As for those who lead a righteous life, MALE OR FEMALE. while believing, t hey enter Paradise; without the slightest injustice"

and again in 16:97:

" Anyone who works righteousness, MALE OR FEMALE, while believing, we will surely grant them a happy life in this world, and we will surely pay them their full recompense for their righteous works."

and yet again in 40:40,

[40:40] Whoever commits a sin is requited for just that, and whoever works righteousness - MALE OR FEMALE - while believing, these will enter Paradise wherein they receive provisions without any limits.

Also what you quote as meaning "excelling" or which seems to indicate that men are better than women is another mistranslation, it is saying instead that men and women are a "degrees apart" not that one is higher in degree to the other, but that they are different, though the law applies to them both equally and they are both equal, obviously men and women are not the same, there is an obvious difference, they are different by a degree (one has a penis, one has a vagina, one can have children etc etc etc, it only states the obvious).

009.071

YUSUFALI: The Believers, men and women, are protectors one of another: they enjoin what is just, and forbid what is evil: they observe regular prayers, practise regular charity, and obey Allah and His Messenger. On them will Allah pour His mercy: for Allah is Exalted in power, Wise.

SHAKIR: And (as for) the believing men and the believing women, they are guardians of each other; they enjoin good and forbid evil and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, and obey Allah and His Messenger; (as for) these, Allah will show mercy to them; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise.

The following could be translated as:

004.034

(Some)Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) As for women you feel are averse,

talk to them suasively;

then leave them alone in bed (without molesting them)

and go to bed with them (when they are willing).

The Qur'an as shown above the last quote in the other quotes says men and women are the protects/maintainers of each other as well. It also implies those who are more in means should take care of those who are less in means, and never states that a woman cannot posess property or be independant, rather it says that one should remain chaste until they can be financially independant or find a match, and this was a revelation applying to both men and women.

024.032

Marry those among you who are single, or the virtuous ones among yourselves, male or female: if they are in poverty, Allah will give them means out of His grace: for Allah encompasseth all, and he knoweth all things.

024.033

And let those who do not find the means to marry keep chaste until Allah makes them free from want out of His grace. And (as for) those who ask for a writing from among those of your servants, give them the writing if you know any good in them, and give them of the wealth of Allah which He has given you; and do not compel your servants to prostitution, when they desire to keep chaste, in order to seek the frail good of this world's life; and whoever compels them, then surely after their compulsion Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Also people are not just given 100 stripes for adultry based on an accusation, the Qur'an makes it clear that it must be directly witnessed by 4 people and the accused has a chance to disprove the accusations against them to whoever might be acting as judge in the case.

So, you admit to being wrong here then: "The Qur'an states that you can not raise your hand to hit another person unless in self defense,"

Good.

Because what the revelation is talking about? It is not talking about sex, it is talking about disobedient women. You are clearly wanting to pick and choose which definitions show Islam in the best light. It doesn't use the word "darb"; it uses "Idriboohunna", which clearly means "to beat" and nothing else! You are so dishonest about your religion that it is sickening!

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim

Also people are not just given 100 stripes for adultry based on an accusation, the Qur'an makes it clear that it must be directly witnessed by 4 people and the accused has a chance to disprove the accusations against them to whoever might be acting as judge in the case.

Who cares? It is clearly not hitting in self defense which you claimed was the only time hitting in Islam is justified.

quote:Originally posted by Martini:

Who cares? It is clearly not hitting in self defense which you claimed was the only time hitting in Islam is justified.

I meant hitting as in attacking or killing, fighting. This is a legal punishment, 100 stripes to those within the Muslim community who comitted adultry (proven by 4 witnesses and not proven against by defense). Its a rare opportunity that 4 seperate people witness the act of adultry or fornication.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

I meant hitting as in attacking or killing, fighting.

Riiiiiight.



quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

This is a legal punishment, 100 stripes to those within the Muslim community who comitted adultry (proven by 4 witnesses and not proven against by defense). Its a rare opportunity that 4 seperate people witness the act of adultry or fornication.



If you read a little further in the Quran, you will see that a man does not need four witnesses:

quote:024.006

YUSUFALI: And for those who launch a charge against their spouses, and have (in support) no evidence but their own,- their solitary evidence (can be received) if they bear witness four times (with an oath) by Allah that they are solemnly telling the truth;

PICKTHAL: As for those who accuse their wives but have no witnesses except themselves; let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies, (swearing) by Allah that he is of those who speak the truth;

SHAKIR: And (as for) those who accuse their wives and have no witnesses except themselves, the evidence of one of these (should be taken) four times, bearing Allah to witness that he is most surely of the truthful ones.

quote:Originally posted by jsaxton14:

That is not a rebuttal. You're simply stating, "Look! I found a link with passages that contradict what you just posted!"

Simply because the Quran states "... and do not aggress; GOD dislikes the aggressors." Doesn't mean it does not also state "Fight those who do not believe in Allah."

You have no fucking idea what you are talking about. Seriously, this is why I usually just tell Islamophobes to shoot themselves instead of defending my faith. Because you just don't fucking get it. I'm not going to bother getting quotes and Hadith and this and that. I'm just going to talk.

Now, I've been a Muslim most of my life. I've met A LOT of Muslims, and I've learned from a lot of sheikhs. And you know what? Not a single one of them taught me to fight infidels. They didn't tell me to kill non-believers. They taught me to be polite, and to NEVER harm anyone or ANYTHING (including ANIMALS and TREES) unless in self-defence obviously. They taught me to worship Allah and connect with him. They taught me A LOT. and NONE of it was evil or oppressive or violent or any of this bullshit that these Islamophobes are ranting about.

Now, take a look back in Islamic history. If you know about it, you'll know that Islam was effective in conquering the lands. And these Islamophobes are trying to say that Muslims are supposed to murder infidels. Think about that for a minute. The Qur'an, that has been on Earth for well over 1000 years, and according to your "investigations" is telling Muslims to murder infidels and to slay them wherever we find them? If that is what Muslims are supposed to do, do you REALLY think that there would be many infidels around today? Did the Muslims butcher all the infidels in Jerusalem? Oh sorry, that was the CRUSADERS. If Muslims are supposed to kill all infidels, why did they give refuge to the Jews who suffered under the Inquisition? Shouldn't have Sultan Beyazid II have put all these helpless Jews to death, because that is what YOU claim the Qur'an teaches? Jewish communitites flourished under Islamic rule, and you're trying to tell me that Muslims are supposed to kill all infidels. http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif) Of course there were times in Islamic history where groups were treated like shit. But that is a result of not understanding Islam, those are exceptions to the rule, they are NOT the rule. If you can't understand it, then there is nothing else I can do.

You Islamophobes are resistant to change of heart, you hold a hate for my faith that is almost impossible to smash due to your amazing ignorance. Many of you claim to have thoroughly investigated Islam after 9/11 and you come up with these ridiculous theories. As I said before, I'm a Muslim, I was NEVER taught to harm or kill non-believers. I live next door to them, I get along with them without a problem, just like Muslims in the past got along with people of other religions. God Willing you will change your ways.

Your use of the "islamophobe" word is rather similar to how zionists use "anti-semite"...

That is, you are branding others as haters when they simply point out the faults of supposed "holy" books. The fact that terrorists justify themselves through the Qur'an was my point and you didn't bother to address it at all. Instead, you find it easier to call names.

How you were raised, what you were taught, is all irrelevant to my point. I do not even believe that Islam CAUSES terrorism, it just JUSTIFIES it. You chose to take it personal and this is another thing that makes me dislike religious beliefs. I attack your beliefs, but you attack me personally (you will notice I said the religion is stupid, but *I* was called "idiot" and "dumbshit"). You take my criticism as "hate" and "phobia" when it's nothing of the sort (I can tell you that I have muslim friends in Turkey who have been very hospitable to me) and this should actually bother you and make you think.

To get on topic, the fact that peaceful muslims exist does not negate the fact that terrorists justify themselves through the Qur'an. If they had no such justifications, maybe they would see there are better ways to solve their problems.

quote:Originally posted by Martini:

If you read a little further in the Quran, you will see that a man does not need four witnesses:

024.006

YUSUFALI: And for those who launch a charge against their spouses, and have (in support) no evidence but their own,- their solitary evidence (can be received) if they bear witness four times (with an oath) by Allah that they are solemnly telling the truth;

PICKTHAL: As for those who accuse their wives but have no witnesses except themselves; let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies, (swearing) by Allah that he is of those who speak the truth;

SHAKIR: And (as for) those who accuse their wives and have no witnesses except themselves, the evidence of one of these (should be taken) four times, bearing Allah to witness that he is most surely of the truthful ones.

and if he bore false witness, he will be punished later on by God, they can't just accuse but they need evidence still, or to say they had witnessed it firsthand. Thank you for finding that revelation and reminding me, I appreciate it. You can help me answer Islam questions sometime too you seem to find good stuff in there lol.

quote:Originally posted by Loc Dogg

Now, I've been a Muslim most of my life. I've met A LOT of Muslims, and I've learned from a lot of sheikhs. And you know what? Not a single one of them taught me to fight infidels. They didn't tell me to kill non-believers. They taught me to be polite, and to NEVER harm anyone or ANYTHING (including ANIMALS and TREES) unless in self-defence obviously.

That doesn't mean that the Quran doesn't say those things. I grew up Muslim and have also met many Muslims and none of us were taught to do those things. I've also met plenty of Christians, and none of them were taught that if a woman refuses to cover her head in church, then her her head must be shaved or that they should stone to death blasphemers, but the Bible does say to do those things.

quote:Originally posted by Martini:

Originally posted by Loc Dogg

Now, I've been a Muslim most of my life. I've met A LOT of Muslims, and I've learned from a lot of sheikhs. And you know what? Not a single one of them taught me to fight infidels. They didn't tell me to kill non-believers. They taught me to be polite, and to NEVER harm anyone or ANYTHING (including ANIMALS and TREES) unless in self-defence obviously.

That doesn't mean that the Quran doesn't say those things. I grew up Muslim and have also met many Muslims and none of us were taught to do those things. I've also met plenty of Christians, and none of them were taught that if a woman refuses to cover her head in church, then her her head must be shaved or that they should stone to death blasphemers, but the Bible does say to do those things.

So then please read the Qur'an carefully and understand the rules it places on conflict and war.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

So then please read the Qur'an carefully and understand the rules it places on conflict and war.

I'm afraid that your definition of "careful" is to make excuses.

You have read the Quran so "carefully", that you have thrown out every reasonable tranlation of the sura that tells you that you can beat your wife and have only accepted an apologist's translation that says it's about something else. I don't beleive in being that "careful"

quote:Originally posted by Martini:

Originally posted by Abrahim:

So then please read the Qur'an carefully and understand the rules it places on conflict and war.

I'm afraid that your definition of "careful" is to make excuses.

You have read the Quran so "carefully", that you have thrown out every reasonable tranlation of the sura that tells you that you can beat your wife and have only accepted an apologist's translation that says it's about something else. I don't beleive in being that "careful"

Yes, I recall that is true, as you couldn't tolerate allegorical or metaphorical descriptions of something in the Qur'an when reffering to a story about Zul Qurnain.

The reason one can not beat their wife is because the Qur'an states that you can not hit people, the reason the other translation is better is because it is congruent with that and they explained it properly when explaining the world darb.

The Qur'an has revelations that explain the rules of warfare, when it is ok to fight, and when it is not, and it does not state that in every circumstance to kill those who do not believe, it clearly states not to be the starters of the fight and that you can fight in a state of war declared by the enemy and it states alot more.

Taking one revelation out of context of those relating to the same subject is not an effective way to understand the message. It is like taking a single sentence out of a paragraph and ignoring all other references to that topic and just sticking to that one sentence.

Martini, you're an enemy to Islam and according to Islam an enemy to yourself, your intentions are to send people away from the path while my intentions are to bring them closer.

My intentions are to try to show them God, your intentions are to keep your eyes closed.

It may be that it is too late for you to reform but will you ever read the entire Qur'an? I think you should read or re read the entire text from the beginning without skimming and see what you find.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim

The reason one can not beat their wife is because the Qur'an states that you can not hit people

So, you 're picking a translation that one person used when all other translators agree with a different translation and your reason is because it makes the Quran not contradictory? You're basically admitting to being an apologist.



quote:Originally posted by Abrahim

the reason the other translation is better is because it is congruent with that and they explained it properly when explaining the world darb.

No, it is not explained better. Go ask a non-partial reader of the Arabic language and see what definition you get. Hell, ask any Muslim in an Arab speaking country and see what definition you get. As I told you before and you refuse to listen, the tense of the word "darb" that is used is "Idriboohunna". It only has one meaning and it means "to beat".



quote:Originally posted by Abrahim

The Qur'an has revelations that explain the rules of warfare, when it is ok to fight, and when it is not

It has many passages that say you can kill non-believers, period; no "special time" given.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim

Martini, you're an enemy to Islam and according to Islam an enemy to yourself, your intentions are to send people away from the path while my intentions are to bring them closer.

You have admitted at least two times that this "path" you choose is for safety reasons so you don't go to hell in case God does exist. Good luck on your "path".

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim

My intentions are to try to show them God, your intentions are to keep your eyes closed.

You know damn well that I have my eyes open to rationale thought and critical thinking. You're the one blinded by fear.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim

but will you ever read the entire Qur'an?

I think I've shown several times that I know the Quran better than you do. I don't know where you're coming up with this supposition that I haven't already done so.

It's funny how people like Abrahim and Digital Saviour think they can go on forums and preach about their bs "truths" and have people believe them by default.

It's just too sweet that there are actually knowledgable people here that expose them. I can't imagine how they reconcile their beliefs with reality.

_____ loves me, this I know!

Because the _____ tells me so.

If you dare to disagree,

Then to _____ will _____ send thee!

quote:Originally posted by Martini:

Originally posted by Abrahim

The reason one can not beat their wife is because the Qur'an states that you can not hit people

So, you 're picking a translation that one person used when all other translators agree with a different translation and your reason is because it makes the Quran not contradictory? You're basically admitting to being an apologist.



quote:Originally posted by Abrahim

the reason the other translation is better is because it is congruent with that and they explained it properly when explaining the world darb.

No, it is not explained better. Go ask a non-partial reader of the Arabic language and see what definition you get. Hell, ask any Muslim in an Arab speaking country and see what definition you get. As I told you before and you refuse to listen, the tense of the word "darb" that is used is "Idriboohunna". It only has one meaning and it means "to beat".



quote:Originally posted by Abrahim

The Qur'an has revelations that explain the rules of warfare, when it is ok to fight, and when it is not

It has many passages that say you can kill non-believers, period; no "special time" given.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim

Martini, you're an enemy to Islam and according to Islam an enemy to yourself, your intentions are to send people away from the path while my intentions are to bring them closer.

You have admitted at least two times that this "path" you choose is for safety reasons so you don't go to hell in case God does exist. Good luck on your "path".

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim

My intentions are to try to show them God, your intentions are to keep your eyes closed.

You know damn well that I have my eyes open to rationale thought and critical thinking. You're the one blinded by fear.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim

but will you ever read the entire Qur'an?

I think I've shown several times that I know the Quran better than you do. I don't know where you're coming up with this supposition that I haven't already done so.

____________________________________________

The Qur'an also says to Ignore Disbelievers repeatedly. Now to refresh your memory on what the Qur'an is saying without pulling things out of CONTEXT: First, a few revelations on the rules of war to make it clear what the Qur'an is reffering to and that it is not accurate though perhaps convenient for you to pull out revelations from their context heeding some but not others. Afterwards I will discuss other rules on dealing with disbelievers when not in a time of open war.

002.190

Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.

And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter.

And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there,

but if they attack you then slay them.

Such is the reward of disbelievers.



But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

002.193

And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.

002.194

The forbidden month for the forbidden month, and forbidden things in retaliation. And one who attacketh you, attack him in like manner as he attacked you. Observe your duty to Allah, and know that Allah is with those who ward off.

002.195

And spend of your substance in the cause of Allah, and make not your own hands contribute to destruction; but do good; for Allah loveth those who do good.

____________________________________________

004.088

What is the matter with you, then, that you have become two parties about the hypocrites, while Allah has made them returnb for what they have earned? Do you wish to guide him whom Allah has caused to err? And whomsoever Allah causes to err, you shall by no means find a way for him.

004.089

They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing: But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah. But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-



004.090

Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty, or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and send you peace, then Allah Hath opened no way for you against them.

004.091

Ye will find others who desire that they should have security from you, and security from their own folk. So often as they are returned to hostility they are plunged therein. If they keep not aloof from you nor offer you peace nor hold their hands, then take them and kill them wherever ye find them. Against such We have given you clear warrant.

004.092

It is not for a believer to kill a believer unless by mistake. He who hath killed a believer by mistake must set free a believing servant, and pay recompense to the family of the slain, unless they remit it as a charity. If he be of a people hostile unto you, and he is a believer, then to set free a believing slave. And if he cometh of a folk between whom and you there is a treaty, then the recompense must be paid unto his folk and a believing slave must be set free. And whoso hath not the wherewithal must fast two consecutive months. A penance from Allah. Allah is Knower, Wise.

004.093

If a man kills a believer intentionally, his recompense is Hell, to abide therein: And the wrath and the curse of Allah are upon him, and a dreadful penalty is prepared for him.

004.094

O you who believe! when you go to war in Allah's way, make investigation, and do not say to any one who offers you peace: You are not a believer. Do you seek goods of this world's life! But with Allah there are abundant gains; you too were such before, then Allah conferred a benefit on you; therefore make investigation; surely Allah is aware of what you do.

____________________________________________

008.055

For the worst of animals in the sight of Allah are those who reject Him: They will not believe.

008.056

Those of them with whom thou madest a treaty, and then at every opportunity they break their treaty, and they keep not their duty.

008.057

If ye gain the mastery over them in war, disperse, with them, those who follow them, that they may remember.

008.058

And if you fear treachery on the part of a people, then throw back to them on terms of equality; surely Allah does not love the treacherous.

008.059

And let not those who disbelieve think that they shall come in first; surely they will not escape.

008.060

Make ready for them all thou canst of force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy, and others beside them whom ye know not. Allah knoweth them. Whatsoever ye spend in the way of Allah it will be repaid to you in full, and ye will not be wronged.

008.061

But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is One that heareth and knoweth.

008.062

Should they intend to deceive thee,- verily Allah sufficeth thee: He it is That hath strengthened thee with His aid and with the Believers;

008.063

And He hath put affection between their hearts: not if thou hadst spent all that is in the earth, couldst thou have produced that affection, but Allah hath done it: for He is Exalted in might, Wise.

008.064

O Prophet! sufficient unto thee is Allah,- and unto those who follow thee among the Believers.

008.065

O Prophet! rouse the Believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, they will vanquish a thousand of the Unbelievers: for these are a people without understanding.

008.066

Now hath Allah lightened your burden, for He knoweth that there is weakness in you. So if there be of you a steadfast hundred they shall overcome two hundred, and if there be of you a thousand they shall overcome two thousand by permission of Allah. Allah is with the steadfast.

008.067

It is not fit for a prophet that he should take captives unless he has fought and triumphed in the land; you desire the frail goods of this world, while Allah desires the hereafter; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.

008.068

Were it not for an ordinance from Allah that had already gone forth, surely there would have befallen you a great chastisement for what you had taken to.

008.069

Now enjoy what ye have won, as lawful and good, and keep your duty to Allah. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

008.070

O Prophet! Say unto those captives who are in your hands: If Allah knoweth any good in your hearts He will give you better than that which hath been taken from you, and will forgive you. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

008.071

And if they would betray thee, they betrayed Allah before, and He gave power over them. Allah is Knower, Wise.

008.072

Lo! those who believed and left their homes and strove with their wealth and their lives for the cause of Allah, and those who took them in and helped them: these are protecting friends one of another. And those who believed but did not leave their homes, ye have no duty to protect them till they leave their homes; but if they seek help from you in the matter of religion then it is your duty to help (them) except against a folk between whom and you there is a treaty. Allah is Seer of what ye do.

008.073

And those who disbelieve are protectors one of another - If ye do not so, there will be confusion in the land, and great corruption.

008.074

Those who believed and left their homes and strove for the cause of Allah, and those who took them in and helped them - these are the believers in truth. For them is pardon, and bountiful provision.

008.075

And those who afterwards believed and left their homes and strove along with you, they are of you; and those who are akin are nearer one to another in the ordinance of Allah. Lo! Allah is Knower of all things.

__________________________________________

009.001

Freedom from obligation from Allah and His messenger toward those of the idolaters with whom ye have contracted mutual alliances.

009.002

Travel freely in the land four months, and know that ye cannot escape Allah and that Allah will confound the disbelievers.

009.003

And a proclamation from Allah and His messenger to all men on the day of the Greater Pilgrimage that Allah is free from obligation to the idolaters, and His messenger. So, if ye repent, it will be better for you; but if ye are averse, then know that ye cannot escape Allah. Give tidings of a painful doom to those who disbelieve.

009.004

Except those of the idolaters with whom you made a treaty, then they have not failed you in anything and have not backed up any one against you, so fulfill their agreement to the end of their term; surely Allah loves those who are careful.

009.005

But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem; but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

009.006

If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.

And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection, then protect him so that he may hear the Word of Allah, and afterward convey him to his place of safety. That is because they are a folk who know not.

009.007

How can there be a treaty with Allah and with His messenger for the idolaters save those with whom ye made a treaty at the Inviolable Place of Worship? So long as they are true to you, be true to them. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty.

009.008

How, while if they prevail against you, they would not pay regard in your case to ties of relationship, nor those of covenant; they please you with their mouths while their hearts do not consent; and most of them are transgressors.

009.009

The Signs of Allah have they sold for a miserable price, and have they hindered from His way: evil indeed are the deeds they have done.

009.010

In a Believer they respect not the ties either of kinship or of covenant! It is they who have transgressed all bounds.

009.011

But, if they repent, establish regular prayers, and practise regular charity,- they are your brethren in Faith: We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge.

009.012

And if they break their pledges after their treaty and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief - Lo! they have no binding oaths - in order that they may desist.

009.013

Will ye not fight a folk who broke their solemn pledges, and purposed to drive out the messenger and did attack you first? What! Fear ye them? Now Allah hath more right that ye should fear Him, if ye are believers

009.014

Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace, and assist you against them and heal the hearts of a believing people.

009.015

And He will remove the anger of their hearts. Allah relenteth toward whom He will. Allah is Knower, Wise.

009.016

Or think ye that ye shall be abandoned, as though Allah did not know those among you who strive with might and main, and take none for friends and protectors except Allah, His Messenger, and the Believers? But Allah is well-acquainted with what ye do.

009.017

It is not for such as join gods with Allah, to visit or maintain the mosques of Allah while they witness against their own souls to infidelity. The works of such bear no fruit: In Fire shall they dwell.

009.018

The mosques of Allah shall be visited and maintained by such as believe in Allah and the Last Day, establish regular prayers, and practise regular charity, and fear none except Allah. It is they who are expected to be on true guidance.

009.019

What! do you make the giving of drink to the pilgrims and the guarding of the Sacred Mosque like him who believes in Allah and the latter day and strives hard in Allah's way? They are not equal with Allah; and Allah does not guide the unjust people.

009.020

Those who believe, and have left their homes and striven with their wealth and their lives in Allah's way are of much greater worth in Allah's sight. These are they who are triumphant.

009.021

Their Lord doth give them glad tidings of a Mercy from Himself, of His good pleasure, and of gardens for them, wherein are delights that endure:

009.022

They will dwell therein for ever. Verily in Allah's presence is a reward, the greatest.

009.023

O ye who believe! Choose not your fathers nor your brethren for friends if they take pleasure in disbelief rather than faith. Whoso of you taketh them for friends, such are wrong-doers.

009.024

Say: If it be that your fathers, your sons, your brothers, your mates, or your kindred; the wealth that ye have gained; the commerce in which ye fear a decline: or the dwellings in which ye delight - are dearer to you than Allah, or His Messenger, or the striving in His cause;- then wait until Allah brings about His command: and Allah guides not the rebellious.

009.025

Assuredly Allah did help you in many battle-fields and on the day of Hunain: Behold! your great numbers elated you, but they availed you naught: the land, for all that it is wide, did constrain you, and ye turned back in retreat.

009.026

But Allah did pour His calm on the Messenger and on the Believers, and sent down forces which ye saw not: He punished the Unbelievers; thus doth He reward those without Faith.

009.027

Then will Allah after this turn to whom He pleases, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

009.028

O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.

009.029

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

____________________________________________

052.045

So leave them alone until they encounter that Day of theirs, wherein they shall swoon,-

____________________________________________

In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful.

109.001

Say: O disbelievers!

109.002

I worship not that which ye worship,

109.003

Nor will ye worship that which I worship.

109.004

And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,

109.005

Nor will ye worship that which I worship.

109.006

To you be your Way, and to me mine.

____________________________________________

There is more but I'll let you enjoy this for now.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim

The Qur'an also says to Ignore Disbelievers repeatedly.

And instead you ignore the Quran and respond to me? YOU'RE GOING TO HELL!

Congratulations on finding suras that contradict one another.

Also, don't forget that over 95% of the world's Muslims follow hadiths too.

quote:Originally posted by Martini:

Originally posted by Abrahim

The Qur'an also says to Ignore Disbelievers repeatedly.

And instead you ignore the Quran and respond to me? YOU'RE GOING TO HELL!

Congratulations on finding suras that contradict one another.

Also, don't forget that over 95% of the world's Muslims follow hadiths too.

I was showing you that those war revelations are in context of war which is shown pretty clearly, when not in a state of war or when after a war there is a treaty one is not allowed to fight. Yes a large portion of muslims also follow Hadiths which I deny completely mainly because of their lack of authority, in the sense that they were all written sometimes several centuries after Mohammed's life and death by people who weren't even born while he was around.

Any other questions about Muhammed can be directed to my Interested in Islam? area:

http://www.totse.com/bbs/Forum15/HTML/005445.html

If you have any other questions for Abrahim about Muhammad, keep in mind he is very atypical of most Muslims, as he doesn't believe in the hadiths which are the teachings and examples Muhammad left behind.

I recommend questions about Muhammad and his life be directed to the following message board:

http://tinyurl.com/kob5v

quote:Originally posted by Martini:

If you have any other questions for Abrahim about Muhammad, keep in mind he is very atypical of most Muslims, as he doesn't believe in the hadiths which are the teachings and examples Muhammad left behind.

I recommend questions about Muhammad and his life be directed to the following message board:

http://tinyurl.com/kob5v

That's true, I don't believe in Hadiths for the following reasons:

The Hadiths are reffered to as the teachings of Muhammed but were not written until long after his death by people who weren't born during his lifetime.

The Qur'an is the only source of information on Muhammed from the time that he was living and was the only message given to him (according to the Qur'an)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammed#Sources_for_Muhammad.27s_life

"The earliest biography of Muhammad known is a collection of hadith: the Sirah Rasul Allah or, the Life of the Apostle of God, by Ibn Ishaq, who was born about 717 and died in 767. He thus wrote his biography well over one hundred years after Muhammad died. He would not have been able to speak to any eyewitnesses, only to those who had heard their accounts, or accounts of their accounts. Ibn Ishaq's work is contained in fragments quoted in a compilation of anecdotes and traditions composed by Islamic historian Ibn Hisham (???-834) and al-Tabari (838-923).

Other sources for biographies of Muhammad are: the military chronicles of Waqidi (745-822); the biographies of Ibn Sa'd (783-845), a student of Waqidi; later histories; Quranic commentaries; and collections of Prophetic hadith. These texts were recorded more than a century, and often several centuries, after the death of Muhammad. Some passages in the Qur'an are believed to shed some light on Muhammad's biography; however, they require a great deal of interpretation to be useful.

Bernard Lewis states that 'the collection and scunity of Hadiths didn't take place until several generations' after Muhammad's death and that 'during that period the opportunities and motives for falsification were almost unlimited'. Besides the problem of oral transmittion for over a hundred years, there were furthermore motives for deliberate distortion. The Muslims themselves at an early date realized that many Hadiths were fabricated and thus developed a whole science of criticism to distinguish between genuine Hadiths and pious or impious frauds. However modern critics have pointed out many defects in their approach. [4] Some skeptical scholars (Wansbrough, Cook, Crone, and others) have raised doubts about the reliability of the Islamic sources, especially the hadith collections. They note for instance that the earliest biography of Muhammad of Ibn Ishaq does not contain any dates or explicit details; yet, later Islamic narratives have progressively more dates, with minute details of Muhammad's life being inserted into their accounts as successive generations of scholars relay the story, such that by the time we arrive at contemporary renditions of Muhammad's story, dates and details have exploded exponentially without explanation. These skeptics believe that many hadith and other traditions were manufactured, or doctored, to support one or another of the many political or doctrinal factions that had developed within Islam in its first century or later. The life of Muhammad was believed to be the exemplar for all Muslims; hence the importance of showing that Muhammad said or did something proving that a particular faction was right. If the skeptics are right, and if much of the early material cannot really be trusted, then all that is factually known is what is contained in the summary above."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran-only#Pro_Qur.27an_Alone

http://hadith.rationalreality.com/

Why you disbelieve in hadiths is not important. What's important is, that when someone asks about what Muslims believe about Muhammad, you don't tell them. What you tell them is what you believe about Muhammad. More than 95% of the world's Muslims follow hadiths.

quote:Originally posted by Martini:

Why you disbelieve in hadiths is not important. What's important is, that when someone asks about what Muslims believe about Muhammad, you don't tell them. What you tell them is what you believe about Muhammad. More than 95% of the world's Muslims follow hadiths.

As I have shown in the post before this one, what people say about Muhammed based on Hadiths is unverifiable and unlikely since they were written long after his death.

The religion of Islam is found in the Qur'an as well as a partial idea of what the man who was Muhammed might have been like written in the time that he was alive.

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim:

As I have shown in the post before this one, what people say about Muhammed based on Hadiths is unverifiable and unlikely since they were written long after his death.

What don't you get? People often want to know what Muslims believe on a certain subject, and you answer with what you believe. They are interested in what Muslims as a whole believe, and when you answer questions without hadiths in mind, you aren't answering on behalf of the majority of muslims.

quote:Originally posted by Martini:

What don't you get? People often want to know what Muslims believe on a certain subject, and you answer with what you believe. They are interested in what Muslims as a whole believe, and when you answer questions without hadiths in mind, you aren't answering on behalf of the majority of muslims.



The apostates of Islam is the right place to send them?

It's alot better than getting answers from someone who doesn't answer what Muslims as a whole believe, when that sometimes is what the correct answer entails.

At ApostatesOfIslam.com you will get answers from many knowlegeable former and current Muslims who will show all sides of an issue. It's an excellent message board to ask questions about the life of Muhammad and what Muslims believe about him.

quote:Originally posted by Martini:

It's alot better than getting answers from someone who doesn't answer what Muslims as a whole believe, when that sometimes is what the correct answer entails.

At ApostatesOfIslam.com you will get answers from many knowlegeable former and current Muslims who will show all sides of an issue. It's an excellent message board to ask questions about the life of Muhammad and what Muslims believe about him.

Do they ever state clearly at the website that the history is simply conjecture written long after Muhammed by those who were not even born during his lifetime nor any eye witnesses?

WHO CARES? Why is it so hard getting through to you? The point is that the majority of Muslims believe they should follow hadiths!