Fine, call me a nerd. I don't care. In any case, I've been thinking a lot about how most religion is complete bullshit and contradicts the human endeavor for truth that it supposedly embodies. Thus, I've typed up a rough draft of a brief summary of my beliefs and I'd like to hear your thoughts.

The Realist’s Manifesto

1. We know nothing.

We don’t know everything; in fact we know only the most infinitesimally small portion of what there is to know, and a smaller percentage of that actually has a point. We don’t know ourselves, and we don’t know where we came from. We don’t know where we’re going, and we don’t know why. We don’t know when or how. It will take millions of years and we will still know nothing, but we will know more. It is in the human spirit of exploration to find out everything there is to know, and we can use the bodies and the minds that were given to us by means that are unknown to attempt to reach our goal. It is probably futile, but we must try. In our old age, we must pass the knowledge on and through the inheritance of knowledge we can begin to accumulate what it really means to be human. Religion is ignorant because it is a tale that humans take for truth when it is just that, a tale. People must not settle for the fables of an ancient civilization as truth, we must find it ourselves. Those who tell us what to believe are no more intelligent than ourselves and have no right to tell us what to believe. We must create the truth out of the vast confusion that is our universe and pass it on to our children so that they might have a frail shred of knowledge about reality and the existence of the human race.

The children of our people, too, have a responsibility. They must be skeptics to any idea, because the world does not work in absolutes. No matter how compelling the evidence, there is still no certainties. At the same time, they must remain open-minded at all times and be willing to consider any idea, no matter how bizarre or foreign, because they know nothing. Just as we know nothing.

2. We are insignificant.

Anyone who ever has looked up at the night sky knows that we are not alone in the universe. The myriad galaxies, trillions of stars, and countless planets each offer a different truth, a different reality. All planets, however, do not have a conscious being that can comprehend that reality, so the truth is never seen. In the sheer infiniteness of our actuality, we must know that there are truths other than Earth out there and, if the universe is indeed infinite, we must realize that every conceivable notion is possible somewhere at some time. We are smaller than any metaphor can ever describe and we must realize it. This is a reaffirmation that we know nothing, because we consider ourselves so significant and important on our planet. You think Hitler was influential? Hitler wasn’t a black hole that trapped time, or a supernova that incinerated light years of space, or a nebula that gives birth to stars, planets, moons, beings, realities, and truths.

3. We start our exploration with ourselves.

We cannot even begin to understand without first learning who we are. Not you as in the jumble of nerves, tissues, blood, and bone, but you as in the product of the living body, the consciousness that supersedes, rules over, and is born from the body. By any means necessary, we must travel the routes of our brains and discover the dusty corners of our thoughts, from the most ancient to the most advanced. Those who decide there is nothing more to discover are ready to die. Whether it be by drugs, discussion, meditation, or just by living, breathing, and thinking, we must gather an intimate knowledge of what it is like to be alive. Once this mission has been completed, we can slowly expand to realities and truths beyond ourselves, to the great void of space to the submicroscopic unknown that we and everything are comprised of.

4. Death is the end of you.

Life is not a preparation for life after death. Death is the end of life, and the inevitable failure of our ultimate mission. Even when we reach as far out as we can, we will fall short by a trillion light years. But through the ages, we can inch further toward the truth. Thus, we cannot worry ourselves with petty things such as religion and money. It is better to live without distraction and to simply live, savoring and enjoying every minute of it. We can die with the ultimate satisfaction that our lives were all that they should be, but the feeling cannot be one that is falsified in your subconscious through success. Success is petty in the broader scope of your life and your enjoyment of it.

5. Be truthful to yourself.

As has been previously stated, there are infinite manifestations of truth to be had. No matter what your purpose in life, you must be honest to yourself and who you truly are. It is in human nature to do what is best for oneself, so you should do it. Of course, the human race is in a communal struggle to find truth, so you should benefit yourself without impeding others’ struggle. Doing so will only downplay your own purpose because others are an important tool in our mission. Through social interaction, friends, society, and networks of people, we all strive to discover the truth of the human race. The truth can be found within our thoughts. What you feel right now is truth, if you want it to be. You must create your own truth. Whatever truth you find, make sure that you really believe in it and make sure it never wavers. Tap into your thoughts and break out of your boundaries. Sprawl and discover. Think, explore, and know. Find truth.

whoever said that humanity embodies a search for the truth?

in a lot of ways we do exactly the opposite

and ignore whats right in front of us

quote:Originally posted by general sbs:

whoever said that humanity embodies a search for the truth?

in a lot of ways we do exactly the opposite

and ignore whats right in front of us

Exactly, that's where we've gone terribly wrong.

Religion claims to be the truth behind everything, but to me it's just ignorance and blind faith that has taken the place of our real quest for truth.

I like realism. It makes alot of sense.

However, do you reject all religion or just blindly believeing in what you are told about religion?

quote:the world does not work in absolutes

Yes, it does. In fact, if everything is subjective then most philosophy becomes completely pointless.

quote:We are insignificant.

No, I'm not. The laws of cause and effect state that every action I take propagates further reactions. In fact, I'm constantly changing and shaping the Universe around me just as much as I am a product of it.

quote:We start our exploration with ourselves.

Descartes already covered this far better than you can hope to.

quote:Death is the end of you.

I could quite easily slip into solipsism here and refute that.

quote:Be truthful to yourself.

Intellectualism would state that anything else is impossible.

Your little ramblings really just read like a typical rant of a teenager whose just got into anarchism from listening to too much punk. I've seen it before, you've hit nothing new.

Yes, of course the actions you take cause reactions, but look at how insignificant they are. Even if you were to completely alter our entire solar system dramatically, that would be a mere speck on the universe's shoulder.

When I say "you," I mean your conscious thought and your perception of reality. Of course, your atoms turn back into soil and you become something completely different, but you will never again obtain the same conscious thought.

I've never heard of Descartes, this is just what I think... You don't have to be an ass about it.

quote:Originally posted by ADogg:

I've never heard of Descartes, this is just what I think... You don't have to be an ass about it.



lol

quote:Yes, of course the actions you take cause reactions, but look at how insignificant they are. Even if you were to completely alter our entire solar system dramatically, that would be a mere speck on the universe's shoulder.

No. My actions will have the same impact and cumulative effect as everything else in the Universe. The constructs of the Universe necessitated my existence, and my actions necessitate massive consequences.

Have you ever heard the old poem "For Want Of A Nail"?

For want of a nail the shoe was lost.

For want of a shoe the horse was lost.

For want of a horse the rider was lost.

For want of a rider the battle was lost.

For want of a battle the kingdom was lost.

And all for the want of a horseshoe nail.

Insignificant actions have significant effects.

quote:When I say "you," I mean your conscious thought and your perception of reality. Of course, your atoms turn back into soil and you become something completely different, but you will never again obtain the same conscious thought.

Solipsism would refute this in a way that is very difficult to argue with.

quote:I've never heard of Descartes, this is just what I think... You don't have to be an ass about it.

It's always a good idea to do a bit of research before you start trying to reinvent the wheel.

Uh, that poem is fundamentally flawed. First off, if a nail is missing from a horse's shoe, it doesn't matter. Also, if a whole horseshoe is missing the horse will be fine. Furthermore, one horse and one rider are unlikely to affect the outcome of a battle, much less a war. Common logic would tell you that if a catastrophic event occurs, it would produce a much greater outcome than a tiny one. Wow, that seems so obvious.

quote:Originally posted by ADogg:

Uh, that poem is fundamentally flawed. First off, if a nail is missing from a horse's shoe, it doesn't matter. Also, if a whole horseshoe is missing the horse will be fine. Furthermore, one horse and one rider are unlikely to affect the outcome of a battle, much less a war. Common logic would tell you that if a catastrophic event occurs, it would produce a much greater outcome than a tiny one. Wow, that seems so obvious.



I like most of what you say, but PerpetualBurn is correct here. The poem is, obviously (or so I thought), not meant to be taken literally. Second, the size of an event does not determine its significance; as far as we know, we are the only beings in the universe that can give anything significance. In fact, as far as you know, you're the only being who can give anything significance. You see my point? A gigantic supernova isn't significant at all, unless it involves us in some way. Similiarly, a stubbed toe can be very significant, if only for five minutes, and if only to the stub-ee. But what does that matter to the stub-ee, as he writhes in pain? It fills his world in a way that star cluster MG-535 never could. Gigantic energies are being expended in space even as I type, but do we know? Do we care? They do not affect us, and are thus as insignificant as blades of grass.

We are the arbiters of importance, friend. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

[This message has been edited by Twisted_Ferret (edited 08-27-2006).]

Wow, you actually made sense there. But here's my point. Have you ever heard the expression, "If you put an infinite number of monkeys on an infinite number of typewriters, one of them will make Shakespeare."? This is actually false. Infinity is a very peculiar number; an infinite number will make Shakespeare. When you apply this same principle to the universe, that means that every concievable life form exists somewhere, and there is an infinite number that are completely out of the limits of the human mind. Thus, if the universe is indeed infinite, a supernova sure as hell has a shitload of significance to some intelligent being somewhere in the cosmos. While I agree with your viewpoint, I also have to say that as far as I ASSUME, we are not the only ones assigning significance to events in the universe.

quote:Originally posted by ADogg:

Wow, you actually made sense there. But here's my point. Have you ever heard the expression, "If you put an infinite number of monkeys on an infinite number of typewriters, one of them will make Shakespeare."? This is actually false. Infinity is a very peculiar number; an infinite number will make Shakespeare. When you apply this same principle to the universe, that means that every concievable life form exists somewhere, and there is an infinite number that are completely out of the limits of the human mind. Thus, if the universe is indeed infinite, a supernova sure as hell has a shitload of significance to some intelligent being somewhere in the cosmos. While I agree with your viewpoint, I also have to say that as far as I ASSUME, we are not the only ones assigning significance to events in the universe.

Okay, that makes sense as well. But I think my basic point remains, that as long as we can assign significance to something we are not insignificant ourselves.

Though doesn't current scientific thought suggest that the universe is not infinite? Not that scientists are always correct, of course. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

I just did some research on silopsism, and it has nothing to say that refutes my claim that death is the end of the conscious mind. By this logic, it is impossible to be sure that people in fact die, but by most modern definitions of consciousness and living (instead of some ancient Greek rhetoric) the ability to percieve your surroundings, or in your point of view conjure up your surroundings subconsciously, ends with the death of the human brain. Even if the human brain did not terminate at death, our influence on the outside world is completely cut off upon our death and my point stands: we must strive to find our truth before death makes us unable to reach out any further.

No one cares about your philosophy. It's great that you've come to some conclusions about life. Now STFU.

Or else you're just as bad as the evangelicals.

quote:Originally posted by Inti:

No one cares about your philosophy. It's great that you've come to some conclusions about life. Now STFU.

Or else you're just as bad as the evangelicals.

Yeah, why bother discussing or learning... everyone knows that forums are just to flame and increase the size of your e-penis on!

quote:Originally posted by Twisted_Ferret:

forums are just to flame and increase the size of your e-penis on!

That's what the guy was doing in his original post, you are correct.

quote:Originally posted by Twisted_Ferret:

Originally posted by ADogg:

Wow, you actually made sense there. But here's my point. Have you ever heard the expression, "If you put an infinite number of monkeys on an infinite number of typewriters, one of them will make Shakespeare."? This is actually false. Infinity is a very peculiar number; an infinite number will make Shakespeare. When you apply this same principle to the universe, that means that every concievable life form exists somewhere, and there is an infinite number that are completely out of the limits of the human mind. Thus, if the universe is indeed infinite, a supernova sure as hell has a shitload of significance to some intelligent being somewhere in the cosmos. While I agree with your viewpoint, I also have to say that as far as I ASSUME, we are not the only ones assigning significance to events in the universe.

Okay, that makes sense as well. But I think my basic point remains, that as long as we can assign significance to something we are not insignificant ourselves.

Though doesn't current scientific thought suggest that the universe is not infinite? Not that scientists are always correct, of course. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

I think you've gotten my point here. Remember when I said, "What you feel right now is truth, if you want it to be. You must create your own truth. "? What I meant by that is that your personal truth is defined by your own experience, and you have control over it. By reaching your personal truth, the human race nears its collective truth. By having control over your human experience and your mission to find your truths, you also have the ability to assign significance to events that occur in your reality. However, when you look at the all-inclusive, omniscient truth that encompasses all realities and all truths, a supernova is indeed much more significant. I believe it is possible to make a compromise on this matter. You see, the human race's endeavor for truth is one that will take millions of years, if not a million times more than that. Quick, tell me about Abraham Lincoln's first blowjob! I'm sure that was pretty damn significant to him. But to the whole scheme of things? A supernova tops that by a long shot.

[This message has been edited by ADogg (edited 08-27-2006).]

Perhaps this misunderstanding stems from my use of the word "we" What I meant when I said, "We are insignificant," is that a single human life is insignificant in the complete endeavor for truth in the human world.

quote:Originally posted by ADogg:

Wow, you actually made sense there. But here's my point. Have you ever heard the expression, "If you put an infinite number of monkeys on an infinite number of typewriters, one of them will make Shakespeare."? This is actually false. Infinity is a very peculiar number; an infinite number will make Shakespeare. When you apply this same principle to the universe, that means that every concievable life form exists somewhere, and there is an infinite number that are completely out of the limits of the human mind. Thus, if the universe is indeed infinite, a supernova sure as hell has a shitload of significance to some intelligent being somewhere in the cosmos. While I agree with your viewpoint, I also have to say that as far as I ASSUME, we are not the only ones assigning significance to events in the universe.

I say stuff like that too, about infinity...and...I agree, when we die, we no longer exist, just like before we were born, but...if you wake up afterwards...no oops will be great enough.

Always remember that nothing is infinite, the universe has boundrys just like everything else. I to feel that sometimes in the grand scheme of things our lives are completely pointless, but thats life.

quote:Uh, that poem is fundamentally flawed. First off, if a nail is missing from a horse's shoe, it doesn't matter. Also, if a whole horseshoe is missing the horse will be fine. Furthermore, one horse and one rider are unlikely to affect the outcome of a battle, much less a war. Common logic would tell you that if a catastrophic event occurs, it would produce a much greater outcome than a tiny one. Wow, that seems so obvious.

It's nice to see that you can attack a poem rather than the logic provided.

The point is how arbitrarily you are applying the term significant. If life has no ultimate purpose, then every single event in the Universe has exactly the same significance as every other.

quote:I just did some research on silopsism, and it has nothing to say that refutes my claim that death is the end of the conscious mind. By this logic, it is impossible to be sure that people in fact die, but by most modern definitions of consciousness and living (instead of some ancient Greek rhetoric) the ability to percieve your surroundings, or in your point of view conjure up your surroundings subconsciously, ends with the death of the human brain. Even if the human brain did not terminate at death, our influence on the outside world is completely cut off upon our death and my point stands: we must strive to find our truth before death makes us unable to reach out any further.

Ok. I'll argue from the perspective of solipsism, not that I like doing it.

I only have my personal perspective of the Universe. It is impossible for me to experience it from any other. I cannot logically derive (since all observation is based on my 5 senses and is personal to me) that you are actually the same as me and not just a construct of my mind just as everything else is.

If the entire external Universe is simply a construct of my consciousness, then it could be thought that when I die, I will simply go on to another reality. I will construct a new Universe with new and different things in it.

quote:Infinity is a very peculiar number

Infinity isn't a number. It's a concept.

quote:Originally posted by ADogg:

However, when you look at the all-inclusive, omniscient truth that encompasses all realities and all truths, a supernova is indeed much more significant.

There is no such perspective, though, unless there is an omniscient being. Sure, we can imagine that view, but again it only has what significance we give it.

quote: Quick, tell me about Abraham Lincoln's first blowjob! I'm sure that was pretty damn significant to him. But to the whole scheme of things? A supernova tops that by a long shot.[/b]

It does? That blowjob could've changed the whole way he looked at things and made him what he was, whereas there are hundreds of thousands of supernovae that we will never even know about.

quote:Perhaps this misunderstanding stems from my use of the word "we" What I meant when I said, "We are insignificant," is that a single human life is insignificant in the complete endeavor for truth in the human world.

Perhaps, but I could also say that the complete endeavor for truth is insignificant next to my life. It all depends on perspective (as far as I can see... heh).

[This message has been edited by Twisted_Ferret (edited 08-27-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Abrahim

I agree, when we die, we no longer exist, just like before we were born, but...if you wake up afterwards...no oops will be great enough.

Are you saying that you also don't believe in an afterlife, but are living the life of a Muslim just in case you're wrong?