The whole "ceremonial, ritualistic magic" seems too good to be true, if you ask me. Do you believe it's real? Or as some put it, "I don't need to believe, seeing as I already use it."

Well, input would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Heh. What a subject.

I'd share my views, but I'm not sure how much I can trust myself. Or how much I know to actually help you and not hurt your path.

Best I can say is find someone in your community that is into it. Anyone. Even the 14 year old punks performing Wicca. Or the 63 year old grandma performing voo doo down the street. See what you can learn. What you can pick up.

Be honest with yourself. Know thyself. You have more of the answers than you think you do.

[This message has been edited by Default User Name (edited 09-02-2006).]

Randi has the cash if anyone here can do magic.

quote:Originally posted by PerpetualBurn:

Randi has the cash if anyone here can do magic.

You stole my response again!

I'm not ashamed, but where else did I steal your response?

A few times I was going to respond to some posts, and you already got the same point across. Keep up the good work. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Personally, I must say that Randi is an asshole. Him along with the Skeptic's Dictionary are full of nothing but shit. Read the skepdic definition of "magic," and when you're done, the only thing you have on your mind is "what the fuck?"

Here is is:

quote:Originally posted by the Skeptic's Dictionary:

Magick is the alleged art and science of causing change in accordance with the will by non-physical means.

Magick is associated with all kinds of paranormal and occult phenomena, including but not limited to: ESP, astral projection, psychic healing, the cabala, and chakras. Magick uses various symbols, such as the pentagram, as well as a variety of symbolic ritual behaviors aimed at achieving powers which allow one to contravene the laws of physics, chemistry, etc. Magick should not be confused with magic, which is the art of conjuring and legerdemain.

The religions based on the Old and New Testaments have long associated magick with false prophets, based upon the belief that Satan regularly exhibits his powers to and shares them with humans.* Using powers which contravene natural forces is good if done by or through God (white magick), according to this view. Such exhibitions of divine power are called miracles. If done by diabolical forces, it is evil (black magick).

The idea of being able to control such things as the weather or one's health by an act of will is very appealing. So is the idea of being able to wreak havoc on one's enemies without having to lift a finger: just think it and thy will will be done. Stories of people with special powers are appealing, but for those contemplating becoming a magus consider this warning from an authority on the subject:

...magick ritual (or any magick or occultism) is very dangerous for the mentally unstable. If you should somehow 'get out too far', eat 'heavy foods' . . . and use your religious background or old belief system for support. But remember too, that weird experiences are not necessarily bad experiences. [Phil Hansford, Ceremonial Magick]

On the other hand, weird experiences are not necessarily good, either.

The magic of performing magicians is related to magick in that performers use tricks and deception to make audiences think they have done things which, if real, would require supernatural or paranormal powers, e.g., materializing objects such as rings or ashes, doves or rabbits. Some magicians have attributed their feats not to magic but to supernatural or paranormal powers, e.g., Sai Baba and Uri Geller.

Of course, the beauty and magic of nature has nothing to do with magick. There is the magic of the birth of a healthy child; the magic of true love. There is the magic of getting out of bed in the morning through an act of will. Unfortunately, this only seems to be magic to those who do not have this power. Those of us who can direct our bodies through acts of will too often take this power for granted. We fail to see the wondrousness of simple things, like wiping the sweat from one's brow. We take for granted the act of opening our eyes to feast on the sublimity of glaciers and oceans or the beauty of sunsets or meadows of wild flowers. These are truly magical deeds and, when contemplated, hold enough wonder to fill universes. But for many, it seems, such real magic will never be enough.

Bullshit, as I said. I don't sway either way, but I've been planning on saving up for a trip to Haiti.

Thanks for the serious response, first poster.

quote:Magick is the alleged art and science of causing change in accordance with the will by non-physical means.

This is possibly the best definition of magic I have ever seen.

It couldn't be any clearer.

If you don't understand it, then sorry but you're just plain stupid.

As much as ive bothered to gaTHER theres gonna be loads of it until spring///



N.B.

22 to 28 this month

PerpetualBurn: I understand it, but what the hell is the point of the rest of the article?

And what the fuck is the above poster talking about, lol?

Its something to do with the new moon:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse_mythology#Supernatural_beings

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse_mythology#Interactions_with_Christianity

Thanks, I suppose, Anti Christ, but how is that relevent to the topic I made?

Really, nothing personal, but what the hell?

It works for me, that's all I know. What's more, it works far better than Gold Crowdog's (Silver Ravenwolf) crappy made-up folk magick.

I hate her so much.

If it's not too much to ask, could you email me at

philosophical.dissonance@gmail.com

EDIT: Murloc.

[This message has been edited by Necrypsys (edited 09-02-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Necrypsys:

PerpetualBurn: I understand it, but what the hell is the point of the rest of the article?



To make it absolutely clear why they've chosen the definition of magick that they have.

quote:Originally posted by Murloc:

It works for me, that's all I know. What's more, it works far better than Gold Crowdog's (Silver Ravenwolf) crappy made-up folk magick.

I hate her so much.



Quick! Claim Randi's money!

So, this thread went to hell much faster than I predicted.

Fukidol.

it's all in your head man. that's not to say it doesn't work...

Yeah, thanks for being contradictory. Make up your mind, if you have an opinion, facts, to share, then say 'em straight.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/Forum15/HTML/005848.html

Well, since technically we have no clue of the full capacity of the brain I say it's quite possible to 'will' certain things to happen.

I've even seen some theories that if the human could really understand and use all the parts of his brain that telekinesis could be possible.

There are quite a few situations, on the news, internet, and many a life situation in which I've just had to scratch my head and wonder why something worked or happened.

For example, I had a flat tire, when I got it fixed 3 days later another one of my tires went flat, but on both days when I finally got to wherever I was going I saw something that I could've been involved in (the first one was an accident I could've been in, the second one was a state trooper and a couple cops busting a party I was about to go to).

It makes you think, people always complain about how the Christian God (which, don't flame me, I don't believe in. I do, however, believe in a God, I just feel the Bible has been through too many a hand to be 100% unrevised) allowed evil and thusly can't exist or is unjust.

How can there be good without evil? or happiness without sadness? Sometimes it takes a little evil for a lot of good to prevail, and sometimes a lot of good is destroyed by a little evil.

I believe in a balance in everything. Literally everything. From analyzing sacred literature to physical activies, mental and physical. I even believe in balancing which balances to even worry about, I, again, could go on forever.

About here is where I rant about the common parallels between Occidental and Oriental religions, and even most sciences, but I'll spare you on that one.

On the topic of magic: I think there might be a hope of some kind of "psion" possibilites.

Religion: Educate yourself.



Edit: There is a really good book I think you might like called The Golden Bough, it talks about ALL kinds of ritualistic magicks, from Aztecs to Zimbabweans, from stone-age times to modern, it's an extensive read but it's very very informative on the things you're interested in.



[This message has been edited by One Kill Wonder (edited 09-04-2006).]

quote:Well, since technically we have no clue of the full capacity of the brain I say it's quite possible to 'will' certain things to happen.

Erm, actually we fully understand the capacity of the brain.

If you're one of these idiots that thinks we only use 10% of our brain then I should correct you. This is one of those urban legends that stems from actual science, but is complete shite.

The brain uses a lot of energy when active, and the human body doesn't like to waste energy. For this reason we only use up to around 10% of our brain AT ANY GIVEN TIME.

We know exactly the capacities of the human mind.

PerpetualBurn: That's exactly what I was thinking when I read his post. I stopped reading at that point, too.

EDIT: I decided to read his post, knowing that I believed this misconception for a while, and really wasn't "stupid" or anything. Thanks alot for the book, I checked it out, and there's a whole chapter on Sympathetic Magic, the thing I'm most interested in!

[This message has been edited by Necrypsys (edited 09-04-2006).]

I'm not entirely sure where you got this idea that you're not stupid from when you claim to believe in magic.

But actually, now that I think about it, what would a 60 year old Peruvian shaman do with a million dollars? Or a witch-doctor in Zambia? How would it help them in life?

If they truly have the power that is reported, and have a firm grasp on the environment around them, then they are happy where they are.

Unless you moved to America, or to Europe, or any other "developped countries" they wouldn't really know the concept of "greed," I don't think, so really, I don't believe that they would need the million dollars, or any of the other cash prices that Randi or other companies are giving away.

I don't know where you get this idea that greed is exclusive to America and Europe. Greed is rampant worldwide.

Just look at the gold and diamond mines in Africa and how poor the miners are. The owners are filthy rich, however.

And if magic is real, how come no one has learned it just to get to Randi's money?

I'm young, and I may be incorrect, but, what's the point of getting one million dollars when you'd be constantly put down, and laughed at, and having to act like an animal, playing around with whatever skills you may have, when they would just be "explained" scientifically, and then they'd send you home, without the money. Also, I would presume that there would be a ton of paperwork to do.

Much like those free iPods on the internet. You can get one, but it takes a ton of time and energy. And you really have to want to get it to receive it. I don't know if what this last paragraph says is true, but I heard it on IFIOTW.

If I was old enough, I'd go to Haiti in a minute, and befriend a few of the sorcerer, "witch-doctors."

And also, there's the "Vow of Silence" that a magician is supposed to swear too.

But calling me stupid really doesn't get you anywhere.

What the hell are you talking about?

Randi has made this claim quite publically and, if you were to have an experiment, then he would go through every legal avenue to ensure that you would get the money were you capable of magic.

It wouldn't be the first time he put someone to the test. He's quite reputable.

All you would have to do is turn up, demonstrate magic to them, and leave.

Oh, and did I mention that youth is not an excuse for stupidity? I'm young myself.

All right, I agree. That's why I wanted thoughts on magic, and not "Omg, t33ch me how to d0 t3h majick like t3h Godd355!!!"

We're on the same side.

Well then stop talking a load of bollocks about Shamans and their selfless nature, for fuck's sake.

All right, I was patient, now I'm telling you to shut the fuck up, 'kay?

You're obviously to be good to open up National Geographic once in your life, so really, just shut the fuck up.

Stupid brit.

I'm afraid that telling me to shut up isn't going to work. Neither is referring to me as stupid when clearly I'm much more intelligent than you.

I've completely removed all credibility from the concept of magic, what more do you want?

All right, so magic is bullshit.

New topic: Hypnosis!

Is it real, folks? Your views on it? Personal experiences?

quote:Originally posted by Necrypsys:

All right, so magic is bullshit.

New topic: Hypnosis!

Is it real, folks? Your views on it? Personal experiences?

they are the same thing.

quote:Originally posted by kenwih:

they are the same thing.



All right, now YOU are definately a dumbass.

have some tea

quote:Originally posted by kenwih:

have some tea



Hmm... tea. All right, buddy!

This thread is beyond stupid.

But think about it this way. If the universe is infinite, everything you can imagine must exist. Every single pattern that could ever be made exists.

*headache*

MAGIC: The manifestation of ones desires to alter situations with unseen energies, using your will to do so.

De-Ja-Vu (FREQUENTLY...W-I-T-H the dream journal), stuff falling when I get upset...

The usual.

Magic is not real.

I follow Alesiter Crowley's (he's, you know, taht world famous leader of several occult organizations and publisher of literally dozens of books on occult topics; now deceased) view. The spelling of "magick" and "daemon" are both discreditted by the occult community. They feel it makes what they do into juvenile sport. Crowley once wrote a book on magic in which he explained that it was a metaphorical act, wherein the practicioner would indeed go through a spell-casting ceremony, but it was not so much to "cast a spell." It was an elaborate act of extending the will. Say, for a love spell, he wrote that it was not meant to make someone else love you but to embolden you to be more active in pursuing that love, as though by performing the spell you can convince yourself to do something you wouldn't normally. Essentially like a giant free self-help plan. All spells, to the occult community, are meant as metaphorical acts of control over the self.

Read up on Crowley's "Magic Ring" theory. In it, he says that, as an exercise in control of self (a little different from self-control), one could select any object that one could wear (he chose a ring for his example) and choose some personality traits that you don't ahve. Say, if you are meek, the ring would represent aggression or, if you are extroverted, the ring would represent introversion. Then, whenever you put on this item, you take on the characteristics that you assigned to it. While, if a ritual is done around it, it could be classified as magic, all it is is you purposefully and conciously taking on different traits. The goal is to be able to do this without the various "enchanted" items you have, effectively enabling you to change your personality at will.

It is all a metaphor for control. A big, elaborate metaphor.

quote:Originally posted by Murloc:

It works for me, that's all I know. What's more, it works far better than Gold Crowdog's (Silver Ravenwolf) crappy made-up folk magick.

I hate her so much.



Is being a hateful person really who you want to be? Silver used to be my neighbor--she was a sweety, but maybe a tad pretentious.

Ceremonial magick works, but it is way too much trouble--all that fussy stuff about using this wood for your wand and doing that at a certain time of the month and all--for my taste.

I never liked being around ceremonial magicians, simply because creepy stuff tended to happen in their vicinity.

By, "metaphor for control," you mean, control of yourself, and not Aleister Crowley controlling his devout followers?

Would the Magic Ring thing work?

quote:Originally posted by ArmsMerchant:



I never liked being around ceremonial magicians, simply because creepy stuff tended to happen in their vicinity.

please, tell us the stories

quote:Originally posted by PerpetualBurn:

Erm, actually we fully understand the capacity of the brain.

If you're one of these idiots that thinks we only use 10% of our brain then I should correct you. This is one of those urban legends that stems from actual science, but is complete shite.

The brain uses a lot of energy when active, and the human body doesn't like to waste energy. For this reason we only use up to around 10% of our brain AT ANY GIVEN TIME.

We know exactly the capacities of the human mind.

Ahh, so why are we figuring new things out about it every day? Dumbass...

quote:If they truly have the power that is reported, and have a firm grasp on the environment around them, then they are happy where they are.

Pretty much sums it up.

And if you did go on with Randi, you cannot win. Its on his terms and his terms cannot be satisfied. You dont deserve to even have an opinion on anything parapsycological if you believe you can win the prize. (Im looking at you, Burn).

I really do hate the term "magic". But since we are using it, w/e. I believe its possible. I know it to be possible. Yes, I have experienced astral projecion and seeing the future through dreams. Its a mindset really. If you dont believe in it, it will never work.

Ohh well....

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

And if you did go on with Randi, you cannot win. Its on his terms and his terms cannot be satisfied.

Terms must exist for such a challenge. Which terms specifically do you think are impossible to satisfy?

quote:Originally posted by Necrypsys:

All right, so magic is bullshit.

New topic: Hypnosis!

Is it real, folks? Your views on it? Personal experiences?

Hypnosis is a real, psychological tool. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with the b.s. you see in the movies about mind control and "you are getting sleepy" it is a great tool for exploration. I had it done to me for my anxiety. The thing is, psychiatrist that used it to uncover hidden memories where full of shit, they tended to have something to prove and made their patients believe what they wanted to happen. While it can be used to uncover hidden memories, the patient is always aware of what is happening to them, but they can be fooled into beliving other things. Which has nothing to do with hypnosis but the calming state it induces and the fact that most people going to see a psychiatrist already have problems that would make them more suceptible.

As for magic--it's a load of bullshit, believed by the new agey nature hippy people and dumb teenagers who want to conform to something special.

quote:Originally posted by Necrypsys:

By, "metaphor for control," you mean, control of yourself, and not Aleister Crowley controlling his devout followers?

Would the Magic Ring thing work?

Yes, I mean control of self. By giving yourself a tangible object or tengible action with which to remind yourself of the changes you wish to enact in yourself, you are less likely to forget and more likely to do.

It's like Tony Robbins, only it works. However, the best minds learn to do this without the trappings of magic and ceremony. They just change what they feel they need to.

It's also kind of like an extremely literal take on the "all the world's a stage" monologue.

quote:Originally posted by Martini:

Terms must exist for such a challenge. Which terms specifically do you think are impossible to satisfy?



I present to you this box. Pick it up.

*you pick it up*

Aha! You must have used a forklift or something to do that because there is no way you could pick up a box so heavy!

===============

Same application. Even if you DID perform some feat that is worthy of the million dollars, Randi always explains it away.

For fucks sake, he WAS a performance magician...

^

Do you always out-do your posts in stupidity?

Name one instance where Randi has done anything close to that, or kindly shut the fuck up. The delusional scenarios you've conconted in that over-imaginative brain of yours is not evidence of anything Randi has done, or will do in the future.

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

Even if you DID perform some feat that is worthy of the million dollars, Randi always explains it away

Do you have any evidence of this? How are you able to make this claim?

You haven't answered my question. Which terms specifically do you think are impossible to satisfy?



quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:



For fucks sake, he WAS a performance magician...

Ergo, his challenge must be bogus?

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

I present to you this box. Pick it up.

*you pick it up*

Aha! You must have used a forklift or something to do that because there is no way you could pick up a box so heavy!



What the hell? http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif)

It doesnt make any sense because he was banking on nobody calling him on it.

The fact is that Randi cant just decide the applicant failed. The test is created in such a way that if they meet the mutually accepted criteria for success then they have won.

Well, are you going to get back to us Argon, or are you embarrassed for making false claims about Randi's challenge?

Well every religion has to have "magic",

by my definition of "religion" anyhow.

If there's no magic, then it's science,

then it's not religion now is it?

Show me a religion with no "magic".

BTW my "magic" includes science fiction.

(aliens, ghosts, demons, chakras)

Religion = Magic = Bullshit