A long time ago, I used to be "Christian", but I didn't see any meaning, it was more like wanting to avoid hell. Now I believe Christianity is a bunch of bullshit, but why are so many old people christians? Is it like they're so close to their death, that they want to suck up to God so they don't have to go to Hell? I don't see any help in Chirstianity, when people pray, how would that they know if they're talking to an actual being, or just oxygen? I think Christianity is turning into terrorism, barely any freedom in it, but to live a perfectly clean and boresome life, with the lingering fear of going to Hell, the mortal fear of death. I don't see how people can be Christians really.. And what kind of loving god would send a human to ETERNAL damnation, there is nothing that a human can do so dark and so evil to deserve an eternity of pain, the thought of eternal pain would scare people into being a christian, like a way to control masses.

[This message has been edited by Gackt (edited 09-08-2006).]

which is one of the reasons i cease to belong to organized christianity

You are either with God or angainst God.

we dont fear death

any christian that says they fear death is not a true believer

quote:Originally posted by rodrat16:

we dont fear death

any christian that says they fear death is not a true believer

Actually, you do fear death, and that is one reason Christianity appeals to you. It tells you what you want to hear.

I always hear the same thing. You just made it much longer, why not just say the real reason people are Christians is because the church uses scare tactics. But I tell you Christianity is not about doing good deeds.

quote:Originally posted by Deoz:

I always hear the same thing. You just made it much longer, why not just say the real reason people are Christians is because the church uses scare tactics. But I tell you Christianity is not about doing good deeds.



If it's not about good deeds, then what is it?

It all seems like a plot to round up the human race.

[This message has been edited by Gackt (edited 09-09-2006).]

how is christianity trying to round up the human race? because someone is forcing you to practice something?/ oh, wait..they're not. Perhaps Christians care about other people or something

They just need something to believe in. If you don't believe in after life, then it is pointless. But if you do, you pray just for the little chance to make it to Heaven, if it actually does exsist.

quote:Originally posted by Zman:

how is christianity trying to round up the human race? because someone is forcing you to practice something?/ oh, wait..they're not. Perhaps Christians care about other people or something

When a religious parent indoctrinates there child aren't they forcing religion upon them.

quote:Originally posted by Zman:

how is christianity trying to round up the human race? because someone is forcing you to practice something?/ oh, wait..they're not. Perhaps Christians care about other people or something

Parents force it upon their kids, how may times have you seen a thread made here about posters parents/grandparents being all up in their face about going to hell and not believing in God?

I've been stopped in the street loads of times by people claiming to be doing the lords work. I've been out round the town and there's some guy preaching to everyone walking by. Yes I seen threads about that here too.

A person with a terrible life here longing for more, a person with an extreme fear of death, or a person easy to trick with fear all make perfect potential Christians.

And you'll find that most born again Christians were taught it when young; even Digital_Savour, whose father had a shit load of bibles.

quote:Originally posted by Source:

Parents force it upon their kids, how may times have you seen a thread made here about posters parents/grandparents being all up in their face about going to hell and not believing in God?

I've been stopped in the street loads of times by people claiming to be doing the lords work. I've been out round the town and there's some guy preaching to everyone walking by. Yes I seen threads about that here too.

Parents teach their child since they are young this is true. I can't say much about parents "being all up in their face about going to hell and not believing in God" though. In the second part of your post you say that you've seen some guy around your town preaching to everyone walking by, and I don't know if you feel offended by this but I understand if anyone would, because nobody wants someone yelling to them as they go about their business.

[This message has been edited by Deoz (edited 09-09-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Deoz:

Parents teach their child since they are young this is true. I can't say much about parents "being all up in their face about going to hell and not believing in God" though. In the second part of your post you say that you've seen some guy around your town preaching to everyone walking by, and I don't know if you feel offended by this but I understand if anyone would, because nobody wants someone yelling to them as they go about their business.



I agree that not every parent demands their kid worship God, I was just making an example like this for instance http://www.totse.com/bbs/Forum15/HTML/005828.html Now I don't have a problem with parents passing on what they believe in, but acting like that kids grandparents isn't that uncommon with highly religious families.

Edit: Link

[This message has been edited by Source (edited 09-09-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Source:

I agree that not every parent demands their kid worship God, I was just making an example like this for instance http: //www.tots e.com/bbs/ Forum15/HTML/005828.html (http: //www.tots e.com/bbs/ Forum15/HT ML/005828. html) Now I don't have a problem with parents passing on what they believe in, but acting like that kids grandparents isn't that uncommon with highly religious families.

Edit: Link



Fair enough. But I don't think that would have happened if the child was taught from youth, but I didn't want to say this at first because I have nothing to support it. But yeah that's just my opiniion..

[This message has been edited by Deoz (edited 09-09-2006).]

Most children are indoctrinated into religion before they're taught how to think rationally and logically. Most kids aren't *ever* taught to think logically and rationally. This, by and large, is why religions are self-propagating; they sneak in the back door before people learn to think straight. Of course, this leads to all kinds of stupidity.

quote:Originally posted by smallpox champion:

...and that is one reason Christianity appeals to you. It tells you what you want to hear.

Damn straight. Aside from the fear of death, life's awful tough for a lot of people, in a lot of ways... people constantly delude themselves as to how much (little) control we have over many things. Many people are too weak-minded to cognitively accept the level of threat and insecurity inherent to the human condition, and they need a fantasy to "suspend reality" and get them from one day to the next.

Aside from that, mainstream religions appeal to the more egocentric, arrogant, vain (and often jealous and vile) among them with the "elitism" angle. Often with a "hate group" to focus their frustrations and anger upon.

Tellem' what they want to hear... just like every other good salesman and con artists thoughout modern history ever has.

A woman I met claimed to have been able to "predict wars" based upon Biblical text... another dude had "days of visions" after which he uncovered "the true meaning of the Bible." Well, wholly shit, if a person can do such things, obviously they must be pretty important individuals. Definitely unusually "special to God," and possibly endowed with abilities and/or wisdom unprecedented in Human history!

That kinda' appeals to one's "vanity," wouldn't ya think?

so parents shouldn't parent? I mean if they believe something why wouldn't they teach their kids that? Why not just let them run around the neighborhood naked

quote:Originally posted by Zman:

so parents shouldn't parent? I mean if they believe something why wouldn't they teach their kids that? Why not just let them run around the neighborhood naked

Parents should parent, for that's what parents do.

The problem is that parents have allowed themselves to be brainwashed into believing Christianity, or whatever religion, without even a tiny bit of doubt. Like any good, caring parent would who believes we need to be saved by Jesus because otherwise we'd burn in hell, they teach it to their children.

Get the parents and you get the children(normally, there are some exceptions) too. So it keeps going on and on and on.

The real reason that people are Christians is because they have been fooled into thinking that they are powerless over their own lives.

[This message has been edited by 1E- (edited 09-09-2006).]

So, you shouldn't teach your kids anything?

i think hes saying that you shouldnt teach your kids something from only one point of view before they have the ability to logically understand it, someone compared not indoctrinating christianity to letting children run aorund naked but thats not a fair comparison to make. wearing clothes is something almost nessescarry for a person to function in society and theres not really any reason not too. however taking a 1 year old and forcing a religion on them before they have the chance to actually consider if it clicks with them is both unnessescary and wrong.

quote:Originally posted by Zman:

So, you shouldn't teach your kids anything?

You should at least wait untill they're old enough to understand it, If you had never heard of religion or God and had been going to school and listened in your science classes, then one day in the future, when you were, I don't know, lets say 20. Then your parents said "oh by the way, I believe in a mystical dude that created everything and he has these awesome powers and can use them to do anything."

You'd be like "....the fuck mom?!" wouldn't you? I mean come on, the easter bunny sounds stupid, so does santa claus, right?

[This message has been edited by Source (edited 09-09-2006).]

you act like its a big conspiracy,..oh, Christianity is a plot to round us up, indoctrinate our children, force them to believe in a lies....

Why would you wait to teach your kids your own beliefs? Because its something people disagree about? Because there are differenet religiongs we're not going to teach you anything....why is religion such topic where you would have to tip-toe around saying its true?

Because most are more than likely not true.

Here is a fair comparison:

A young white male is brought up to believe just like his parents, including the Southern Baptist religion, to discriminate against homosexuals, to degrade and under-value women, and to believe that white people are the supreme race.

Parents will teach thier kids more than just their religious views... and most of these parents really believe they "know what's best" for thier kid.

This is a vicous cycle, in ways beyond christianity.

quote:Originally posted by Zman:

Why?

You would understand if you ever

broke through your own conditioning.

Why not build your children's mind

traps as soon as possible?

Because you know, if you waited too

long, they would just tell you that

it's all bullshit. Somewhere in

there you know it's bullshit too.

actually i don't think that.

it would be an interesting thing to see what would happen to a child not raised with a religion. would he create his own? or would he not think about it?

quote:"it would be an interesting thing to see what would happen to a child not raised with a religion. would he create his own? or would he not think about it?"

Do you mean a child raised without ever being exposed to a religion? Because there are children raised without a religion all the time. I should know, I'm one of them.

quote:Originally posted by Surak:

Most children are indoctrinated into religion before they're taught how to think rationally and logically. Most kids aren't *ever* taught to think logically and rationally. This, by and large, is why religions are self-propagating; they sneak in the back door before people learn to think straight. Of course, this leads to all kinds of stupidity.

dude, you have hit the nail square on the head. i have been in catholic schools my whole life. i never really beleived, i just kind of went with it so i wouldn't make any waves, you know?

anyways, for whatever reason i MUST have both sides to every argument, no matter what it's about. well, this summer ids when i joined totse, and i read around this board a lot. i was able to see the atheist side of the argument and form my own opinion. i am now an athesist.

lately i have been encouraging my friends to explore their own feelings about god, and two of my friends have dropped their beleif in god as well. if whomever i am talking to says they still beleive in god, i simply say "if it makes you happy, then by all means keep beleiving."

but yes i firmly beleive that the only reason there are so many catholics is because many kids are indoctrinated so early.

i mean, think about it. you're baptised a few months (IS it a few months? i honestly don't know. this just seems the most rational.) after you're born. and then in second grade you make the next huge step, first communion. now in baptism you obviously have no say whatsoever, and in first communion you're 7-8.

sounds kinda fucked up now that i think about it.

Indeed. Most people never objectively look at their belief systems, they merely take it for granted, completely unaware of what was done to them.

quote:Originally posted by Surak:

Do you mean a child raised without ever being exposed to a religion? Because there are children raised without a religion all the time. I should know, I'm one of them.

that is what i meant. it would be interesting, no?

I was raised without any religious influence at all. Of course I had the instinctual curiousity about life and it's origins. Me being too young to understand a detailed answer, my parents would simply shrug it off and say shits just the way it is. Eventually, after I learned about religions and how absolutly mindless and controlling they can be, I decided to live my life without pondering the afterlife. A life spent preparing for after the end, is a life that's done no living at all. To me, true "living" is living free, to my own will, not to the will of a giant man living in the sky.

quote:Originally posted by Holy Shit:

I was raised without any religious influence at all. Of course I had the instinctual curiousity about life and it's origins. Me being too young to understand a detailed answer, my parents would simply shrug it off and say shits just the way it is. Eventually, after I learned about religions and how absolutly mindless and controlling they can be, I decided to live my life without pondering the afterlife. A life spent preparing for after the end, is a life that's done no living at all. To me, true "living" is living free, to my own will, not to the will of a giant man living in the sky.

Couldn't have put it better myself.

quote:Originally posted by Zman:

actually i don't think that.





Zman, I'm presuming you are Christian. I'm also assuming your parents are Christian. Am I correct?

[This message has been edited by Cooking with Zyklon B (edited 09-11-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Gackt:

A long time ago, I used to be "Christian"

<insert rant of premise fallability>

I seriously doubt you were ever a christian if you cant see any point in being one. It isnt something you are forced into....

[This message has been edited by ArgonPlasma2000 (edited 09-11-2006).]

look if you think about it god only has control through fear that is how he works

Christianity is for the weak minded who cant make decitions for them selves.

just face it god rules like a dictator.

I dont know why Christianity is being singled out. Just about every religion there is a god that someone strives to please because they put certain morals and values up on a pedestal and try to lead a "good" life. I dont see anything wrong with this, and frankly I think the world would be chaos without it.

If people need their religion, and what they do in the name of it is not illegal and doesn't infringe upon my rights, then by all means, go ahead.

However, if either of the two are violated

then I can easily see a scenario where I could find fault. This applies to any system of beliefs, not just christianity.

Morals can be found without the need of a deity.

Think about this: does God approve of something because it is good, or is it good because God approves of it?

quote:Originally posted by Gackt:

there is nothing that a human can do so dark and so evil to deserve an eternity of pain, the thought of eternal pain would scare people into being a christian, like a way to control masses.



Welcome to the wonderful worl of religion my friend. Most humans are weak emotionally, and are afraid of death, and due to the misunderstanding of this painful world, we look for easy reasons to our every day lives. And after all, wouldn't it be easier to pray your sins away?

I say screw religion, it has brought more pain and technological stagnation to Humankind than it has brought good. Until we can unite under the banner of freedom from God's apparent worldly mistakes, then we will continue to stagger on until we destroy this planet, or infest another.

quote:Originally posted by purplemonkeydishwasher:

look if you think about it god only has control through fear that is how he works

Christianity is for the weak minded who cant make decitions for them selves.

just face it god rules like a dictator.

I believe that God is more of an observer. After all didnt he give us free will?

Example: The church teaches that we should not steal, but what if you had to steal to feed someone? If God was a dictator then he would simply cut off your hand, but as an observer he would see your motives and forgive. If he doesnt understand then he isnt really god and were all fucked.

After all, wasnt man supposedly created in his image. That being so, I would suppose he would be able to reason better than any mere human.

As for the church, people should free their minds from a preimposed system of beliefs. While I agree that the ideals that the church was built on are what we sould strive for, i do not belive the church as it is now can better mankind. The church says that if you are good, then god will reward you. The church also says that if you are bad, then god forvgives and rewards you anyway. I dont know how this will better mankind because we have all these people who fuck up, and knowing that they have, do it again. They just go into church pray and believe they are good people. There is also the fanatics who believe that by going out of thier way to do things, are good people. I say fuck these people. If theres anything that I learned from the gospels, its that Jesus did not travel 1,000 miles to feed some people, or build their homes, he helped however he could right were he happened to be. Of course the church now uses this philosophy of helping others to make money, i wont go into specifics, just use your imagination, oh wait the church owns that too. http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif)

What I beleive is that if everyone just lived there lives as best as they could, and help others when they could, then humanity would be more like god intended. Jesus did not single handedly try to change the world, he urged others to open their minds.

Anyways, enough of my rant. Feel free to condemn me to hell, as all of my religious teachers and ministers already have.



[This message has been edited by ChildOfRebellion (edited 09-12-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Gackt:

A long time ago, I used to be "Christian", but I didn't see any meaning, it was more like wanting to avoid hell. Now I believe Christianity is a bunch of bullshit, but why are so many old people christians? Is it like they're so close to their death, that they want to suck up to God so they don't have to go to Hell? I don't see any help in Chirstianity, when people pray, how would that they know if they're talking to an actual being, or just oxygen? I think Christianity is turning into terrorism, barely any freedom in it, but to live a perfectly clean and boresome life, with the lingering fear of going to Hell, the mortal fear of death. I don't see how people can be Christians really.. And what kind of loving god would send a human to ETERNAL damnation, there is nothing that a human can do so dark and so evil to deserve an eternity of pain, the thought of eternal pain would scare people into being a christian, like a way to control masses.



Are you identifying christianity with the teachings of the catholic church and it's many cults that call themselves christians?

What did the central figure of xianity say? Love your enemies? How many of the so-called christians of today follow that teaching?

quote:"After my departure there will arise the ignorant and the crafty, and many things will they ascribe unto Me that I never spake, and many things which I did speak will they withhold, but the day will come when the clouds shall be rolled away, and the Sun of Righteousness shall shine forth with healing in his wings" ~Jesus; VII:14 http://www.thenazareneway.com/

Namaste http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Deoz:

You are either with God or angainst God.

False Dichotomy.

quote:Originally posted by ArgonPlasma2000:

<insert rant of premise fallability>

I seriously doubt you were ever a christian if you cant see any point in being one. It isnt something you are forced into....





In a sense many children are being forced into religion, not just christianity. Many children are introduced into religion and at those ages don't say no, because they trust their parent to teach them and so follow them, because they aren't independant enough to find the religion they want or no religion for that matter.

First of all, if you knew anything of christianity you would know that if you were a true christian you would know that all of your arguments mean nothing. The bible sais that the reason we should worship god is to give him glory and thats the only reason he created us. If you worship him just to go to heaven, you will be sent to hell. And by what you were saying, I could tell that you were never a so called "christian".

I'm at my friends house, and that's his opinion

I wonder if people would give him glory if heaven and hell weren't in the equation...

You americans should consider yourselves lucky for seperation of church & state, we don't have that in NZ, hence in primary school, we had religious instruction.

We were not taught fear, we were taught praise, stories and song. I *think* it was normally half an hour a wek for three, of the years i was there, an hour for two, and bugger if I can remeber the first year ago.

My mind was like a sponge. At school, I belived was I was told, Hence after four or five years of trying, I actually started beliving it for about a month.

But I'm a person who likes logic, so it quickly faded.

The moral of the story? Smater kids will be affected by RI more, and shake it off fast, hence, the is no real point to this.

Sorry for the lack of any understandibiltiy in this post.

Christians are christans out of fear. Fear of a God and hell, so then thier actions are for themselves and not for the good afterall. I say down with relgion and down with your fear accept that fact that we dont know the answers and get your own ideas