You might be interested to learn that early Christians did not regard Jesus as any sort of God or divinity. He was just the latest and greatest prophet.

It wasn't until the mid-fifth century that Emperor Constantine convened the council of Nicea (whence we get the Nicean Creed), and the early church fathers voted to determine that Jesus was in fact a god. The vote, BTW, was not unanimous.

Oh, and at the same time, they deleted most references to reincarnation from the "approved" scripture.

[This message has been edited by ArmsMerchant (edited 09-14-2006).]

What shocks me is that people do not even flinch at this idea, thinking Constantine was directed by God. This proves why people are attracted to Bush http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif).

And wasn't there a bible that talked about Jesus not ascending into heaven after his crucifixion and living out his days as a mortal man? (forgot the bible name)

This is an interesting fact that I'm sure the majority of Christians have no knowledge of whatsoever. If you research the history of Christianity it becomes quite a simple puzzle to put together, leading one to believe that the New Testament was written for a dark political objective. I can only say that at this point, you would have to be pretty dense to believe Jesus Christ was anything more than a man, or quite possibly a mythical figure from an ancient romance novel.

You don't need to "search your heart" or read the bible to decide whether or not Jesus is real, just do some historical research and if you're not a complete idiot, then you should see some patterns.

Yeah, there is a lot of stuff that resonates with me in the Gospel of Thomas, which really pissed off John--or so I have read.

John supposedly started that "doubting Thomas" stuff. Kinda like a flame war in slow motion.

quote:Originally posted by ArmsMerchant:

You might be interested to learn that early Christians did not regard Jesus as any sort of God or divinity. He was just the latest and greatest prophet.

It wasn't until the mid-fifth century that Emperor Constantine convened the council of Nicea (whence we get the Nicean Creed), and the early church fathers voted to determine that Jesus was in fact a god. The vote, BTW, was not unanimous.

Oh, and at the same time, they deleted most references to reincarnation from the "approved" scripture.



Hi ArmsM,

i'm going mostly by memory, so i could be mistaken and i'm too lazy to look it up, but it seems to me that there are manuscripts that date from before 5th century that have language that indicates the Divinity of Jesus.

Yes, i think there were some "votes" but if memory serves, the council was really more about unifying Christianity. Like i said, just going by memory.

God Bless,

johnny

Although this link doesnt mention manuscript (NT) evidence, it briefly covers the OP's topic... and supplies some sources if anyone is interested enough to look alittle further.

http://christiananswers.net/q-aiia/jesusgod.html

quote:Originally posted by Ra-deus:

This is an interesting fact that I'm sure the majority of Christians have no knowledge of whatsoever. If you research the history of Christianity it becomes quite a simple puzzle to put together, leading one to believe that the New Testament was written for a dark political objective. I can only say that at this point, you would have to be pretty dense to believe Jesus Christ was anything more than a man, or quite possibly a mythical figure from an ancient romance novel.

You don't need to "search your heart" or read the bible to decide whether or not Jesus is real, just do some historical research and if you're not a complete idiot, then you should see some patterns.

Hi Ra-deus,

here is a link for you to check out (particular attention to the "Christ-mythers" section)

http://www.tektonics.org/

johnny

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:

Hi ArmsM,

i'm going mostly by memory, so i could be mistaken and i'm too lazy to look it up, but it seems to me that there are manuscripts that date from before 5th century that have language that indicates the Divinity of Jesus.

God Bless,

johnny



That is quite possible. There were zillions of sects that fell under the general classification of Christianity, and new "gospels" keep turning up.

As I understand it, the whole "Chist" thing was largely political--the Zealots backed him and were rabidly anti-Roman--his "render unto Caesar" thing really alienated them, though.

BTW, Jesus rode into Jerusalem on an ass for the sole purpose of fulfilling an old prophecy that the new messiah would do so.

Bible fuckers make me sick. Modern Christianity is stupid, not to mention was/still is used to keep certain people in power.

I heard about something to do with revelations being written not by who everyone thinks it was?.....and he was on some magic mushroom at the time if writing it also? and something to do with constantine only allowing it into bibles but on a recomendation it not be taken litterally.

No one knows alot about the bible really, they just read it n get told alot of stuff that isnt true n believe it without doing any kind of research

quote:Originally posted by ArmsMerchant:

BTW, Jesus rode into Jerusalem on an ass for the sole purpose of fulfilling an old prophecy that the new messiah would do so.



Hi ArmsM,

Pardon my tone, but how does that matter?

I dont see how that refutes the prophecy. Would it have been a "better" prophecy if the prophecy had said, "this prophecy will be fulfilled on purpose"?

Think of it like this...

Have you seen the movie, Matrix? When the oracle tells emo (that was the name, right?) not to worry about the vase, and he turns around and knocks it over... she says something like, "you'll be wondering about that"..

Now, did the oracle cause the prophecy to happen? Simply see and say, prior? Or both?

We simply dont know.

But one of the theologic reasons for Jesus fulfilling that prophecy, was that it must occur.... if it didnt, then the prophecy was wrong, which in turn, would make the Bible false.

i'm not going to get into a discussion about prophecies .. whether or not they were fulfilled... i'm only going to say that each and every one, must be fulfilled (in what ever manner **), in order for God's claim of Truth in His Word, to be true... and that goes for historical content as well.

** when i say, "in what ever manner", this excludes "prophecies after the fact"... by definition, true prophecies are before the fact... boy, do i hate the fact that everything said on Totse has to be qualified LOL.

Ok, i goofed off long enough, i should really get back to getting something done.

God Bless,

johnny

^Okay, let me expand on that. I acknowledge Jesus (aka the nazz, aka Christ Michael of Nebadon) as one of MANY Masters sent by God to illuminate the human race.

I object strenuously to the idea that he was an actual deity--after he, he said himself (supposedly) "All these things I have done, ye shall do also."

The main reason he became preeminent is because he had a better PR campaign, aided and abetted over the years by people like Bishop Iraneous (sp? sorry--I mean the guy who wrote that big book attacking what he defined as heresy), Constantine and Theodora, and a host of others.

Even more interesting, to me, is the ignorance of fundementalist Protestant Christians. Many of them say the the King James version is the only real Bible, and all the rest have been corrupted. Except... the KJV has changed a lot! The original version even had the Catholic "Apocrypha"; it was only taken out later.

quote:Originally posted by ArmsMerchant:

[B

I object strenuously to the idea that he was an actual deity--after he, he said himself (supposedly) "All these things I have done, ye shall do also."

[/B]

Your right, Constantine imposed a version of events to fit his political ambitions, it caused a schism in the church which has never healed however, I'm surprised to read your words above - because if we are all one( as i understand you believe?) and Jesus YSHVH, whatever name you wish, is not a deity, that means there is no divinity in the universe?

Seems at odds with other posts of yours?

My understanding of the myth is that 'Jesus' claimed to be both the son of god and the son of man and when called on his blasphemy by the religious authorities he used their law as his defence. Jesus cited the Psalm that says "You are all gods ..." to defend his right to call himself the son of god clearly indicating that he was claiming no more of divinity than was the right of all humanity.

Given the violent reactions visible on our media everyday, and obvious in history, had that not been accepted as a valid defence, Jesus would have been stoned to death on the spot by a bunch of hot-headed zealots!

The Jesus story, to me, reads like other stories told by the great masters and teachers with the common theme that we are all one, all 'children of god'. Whatever we might conceive god to be, we are members of the one human race. As far as we know, humans are the highest form of intelligent life in the universe, what is more fitting? All members of the human race are deities/divine including the real/mythical Jesus, or nobody is?

If we are all divine eternal beings living continuosly forever in a constantly changing existence, cycling between energy and matter, between what we call life and death. Every fibre of our beings composed of indestructible energy, nothing of our present being, none of the energy of which one is composed is ever lost. Our being is then eternal, ever changing, ever new. We speak of God as having those properties, characteristics that may apply to us as well?

Was Jesus teaching this? Is it because his followers, realising their divinity, abandoned the priests and temples, decryed the notion of Caesar being a god above them - the power of that movement threatening both political and religious authority and privilege? What would Caesar Constantine want his subjects to believe? Who would need a priest or a Caesar if one was a fractal of god?

Peace be with you http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

^ Okay, part of the problem here is what we call "god". Christians believe--most of them, anyway, there might be a few Thomasts out there--that Jesus was UNIQUE in his divinity, that he was the One and Only son of god.

In my book, we are all "divine," we all have the spark of whatever--God, the force, the universe, the unified field--within us. Thus--"I am God, thou art God, all that groks is God."

xtreem, your scathing critique of The Matrix totally made me rethink my disbelief in your primitive faith. Thank you.

I'm sure god really did shoot his heavenly jizz in that sweet young bitch's hairy honey pot. Wheeee!

quote:Originally posted by Viraljimmy:

xtreem, your scathing critique of The Matrix totally made me rethink my disbelief in your primitive faith. Thank you.

I'm sure god really did shoot his heavenly jizz in that sweet young bitch's hairy honey pot. Wheeee!



Have i been away from Totse that long, that this post made me chuckle?

quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:



Have i been away from Totse that long, that this post made me chuckle?



As long as you can laugh all is not lost.