Guess everybody has some experience with blood-sucking, burrowing, biting, disgusting 'creatures' like head lice, mozzies and so on. More people die from mosquito borne diseases on planet Earth than any other, and head-lice, creepy repulsive insects, we have to use toxic chemicals to kill them, then they jump onto you from someone else, so hard to get rid of ... why? What was 'God' thinking about? I can't think of any good reasons to create such creatures, anyone else have some ideas?

Peace be with you http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by redzed:



I can't think of any good reasons to create such creatures, anyone else have some ideas?

Good reasons? What is "good"?

People die.

omg stop the presses.

We're animals, too.

quote:Originally posted by redzed (in another thread):

Nevertheless i hear what you have been saying, but in the absence of any further response from the OP I'm going to settle for it being a logical impossibility that any being worthy of the title 'omnipotent' god would be comprehensible to a human being.

quote:Originally posted by Martini:

Good reasons? What is "good"?



Yeah it's a good question and obviously I'm still throwing ideas around and questioning what is good? Not claiming omnipotence myself http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

Let's rephrase, can anyone think of a 'reason' a creator(presumably intelligent[duh] and probably omnisicient), or a 'god', would create parasites that inflict immense suffering?

Peace be with you http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Merlinman2005:

We're animals, too.

that is where my friends disagree with me.

quote:Originally posted by redzed:



Let's rephrase, can anyone think of a 'reason' a creator(presumably intelligent[duh] and probably omnisicient), or a 'god', would create parasites that inflict immense suffering?



To cause pleasure to the masochists?

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 09-19-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by redzed:



Let's rephrase, can anyone think of a 'reason' a creator(presumably intelligent[duh] and probably omnisicient), or a 'god', would create parasites that inflict immense suffering?



Then I assume that you're positing that suffering is not good? I believe that this contradicts some of the beliefs that you claim to have (per what you have written in other threads).

quote:Originally posted by Martini:

Then I assume that you're positing that suffering is not good? I believe that this contradicts some of the beliefs that you claim to have (per what you have written in other threads).

We have a communication problem, not unusual for an internet forum, however I thought I made it clear the only 'law'/belief I subscribe to is that the only constant is change. That means I do not have dogmas or set philosphies, and am able to remain open to the new ideas and circumstances imposed by constant change. My understanding of those things is influenced in the present rather than by values and beliefs formed in the past.

In the past i held the belief god was omnipotent, omniscient etc., now I see that was not a realistic view so what to do? As you have quoted I have questioned whether one has the necessary ability to determine good or bad and thus to recognise if god is good or evil. Here I am questioning whether there is any form of being we could call a creator, or worthy of the title God, who would create such diabolical torments as those inflicted by parasites, and if so, why would s/he do it?

Peace be with you http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by redzed:



Here I am questioning whether there is any form of being we could call a creator, or worthy of the title God, who would create such diabolical torments as those inflicted by parasites, and if so, why would s/he do it?



For starters, you already stated:

I'm going to settle for it being a logical impossibility that any being worthy of the title 'omnipotent' god would be comprehensible to a human being.

In another thread, you claimed that we couldn't answer the OP's question "could god be evil". How is your question here any different?

Why create humans?

quote:Originally posted by King_Cotton:

Why create humans?



To help keep the parasites happy?

quote:Originally posted by Martini:

For starters, you already stated:

I'm going to settle for it being a logical impossibility that any being worthy of the title 'omnipotent' god would be comprehensible to a human being.

In another thread, you claimed that we couldn't answer the OP's question "could god be evil". How is your question here any different?



And in the other thread I've also conceded to Rust's point. Did you actually read my last post or are you looking for an argument?

Peace http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by King_Cotton:

Why create humans?

Why do humans posit a creator?

quote:Originally posted by redzed:

And in the other thread I've also conceded to Rust's point. Did you actually read my last post or are you looking for an argument?



Would you knock it off with the posts asking if I'm looking for an arguement and asking what my purpose here is? I'm not looking for an arguement (or debate). It's the nature of what both you and I are doing here.

No, I didn't read your post conceding to anything in another thread when I posted what I did here.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

To cause pleasure to the masochists?



Haha.

I'm sure people have asked religious figures in thier lives questions like these. Or atleast I have, and received an answer along the lines of "God has his reasons, if you are supposed to know, you will know."

quote:Originally posted by Cooking with Zyklon B:

Haha.

I'm sure people have asked religious figures in thier lives questions like these. Or atleast I have, and received an answer along the lines of "God has his reasons, if you are supposed to know, you will know."

Gotta ask the questions tho http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

To cause pleasure to the masochists?



What sort of masochist could possibly enjoy the frustration and monotony, the never-ending battle with head-lice? Seems like a frivolous answer to what I thought was a fair question?

Here's another response I had to the same question. The respondent pointed to the monkeys and how they groom eachother, picking out the lice and relieving the discomfort, as an example of how a seemingly negative thing may lead to something positive, for example: social bonding.

Completely out of left field also came the thought that, as the monkeys eat the lice it may also be a source of nutrition!

quote:Originally posted by King_Cotton:

Why create humans?

We are a science experiment for a being who is only 12 years old. plus if you were a god wouldnt you create a bunch of little people to worship you while at the same time creating laws that no one could possibly follow. you cant say that it wouldnt be fun watching them struggle valiently against their own nature to appease you.

The whole paracites existing thing really screws up the whole fundy idea of no death or disease existing even in animals before the fall of man. No idea where that idea came from, they must have a diferent Bible or something.

quote:Originally posted by redzed:

What sort of masochist could possibly enjoy the frustration and monotony, the never-ending battle with head-lice? Seems like a frivolous answer to what I thought was a fair question?

It's a frivolous answer if you believe that no person could possibly enjoy that; or in other words, if you think there is a consensus on something that is "bad"...

quote:Originally posted by Martini:

Good reasons? What is "good"?



Amen. In my book, nature is neither "good" nor "bad". It just is.

However, in the great scheme of things, everything has its place and function. For every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven. So to speak.

quote:Originally posted by ArmsMerchant:

Amen. In my book, nature is neither "good" nor "bad". It just is.



I'm pretty sure that redzed had the same philosophy from what I remember from other threads. That's why I don't understand why he posted the question.

quote:Originally posted by Martini:

I'm pretty sure that redzed had the same philosophy from what I remember from other threads. That's why I don't understand why he posted the question.



Martini, I did go back and read those other threads and learned some reasons you might be here and i'm thinking you should understand how cathartic an exercise putting one's beliefs to the test is.

If the belief is truth it will withstand anything, if not, better off knowing. How deep in one's subconscious memory are some of the drivers of my behaviour? How often have I asked myself why I believe something or not? This morning I am recalling how it used to be my morning exercise to read the bible. I read through 13 different versions, commentaries, debates etc., and found myself unsatisfied. Nevertheless to this day bits of it continue to pop into my conscious mind(however having learned since of the metaphorical nature of that book it is amazing how accurate/relevant to the events of the present some of those memories seem to be).

Yogananda and the Bhagavad Gita taught me how to look for the metaphor, the esoteric message; Buddha taught me that it's up to each individual to seek enlightenment, not to rely on gurus or prophets; Shantideva showed the efficacy of patience, the necessity and power of compassion; Abdul Bahai taught me to see humanity as one species, to see hope for us; Krishnamurti taught me to question everything and how to live in the moment, how to stop the thoughts and experience total awareness, the void, the emptiness, the presence that Hawkins speaks of, and the importance of honest enquiry.

TOTSE is teaching me lots, like watch your back, there are trolls whose purpose is essentially dishonest, and usually antagonistic. They are mostly recognised by some simple means: Lots of cut & paste, big swings in mood and treatment of other posters usually involving flaming at some point, like using ad hominems and insulting language. Over the time I've been here, there has been too many of them to count! However from TOTSE i have also learned so much, followed up some excellent links, and found clarification for a lot of thoughts. I've encountered some brilliant thinking and much that demonstrates how similar are the questions we ask?

So I am lead by conversations, research, and debate to question the vision of god i received from childhood, why does this omni/omni/omni superbeing allow suffering? What is good and evil? Is that as simple a question as what is right and wrong?

Why would an all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving being create parasites he/it must have known would cause intense and immense pain and suffering for billions of humans and many times that number in the animal?

IMHO this vision of god is obviously not a logical one, but then others argue, what if God can do the illogical because he's all powerful. That might explain why he created parasites, it's an illogical reason, not clear to me. I cannot comprehend it with logic and reason so am left with faith or intuition.

That's what I read in posts from say, Beany, or Arms Merchant, lots of faith and intuition, but then I encounter the very same posters who argue that it's possible that an omnipotent god could act outside of the laws of logic, passionately attacking those posters for relying on faith and intuition. What the ..?

Peace be with you http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by redzed:



Why would an all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving being create parasites he/it must have known would cause intense and immense pain and suffering for billions of humans and many times that number in the animal?



I don't understand why you're still asking this. If you don't believe in "good" or "bad", how can you invision pain and suffering as something negative?

quote:Originally posted by Martini:

I don't understand why you're still asking this. If you don't believe in "good" or "bad", how can you invision pain and suffering as something negative?



mate this is the problem you don't seem to listen or to consider what others say you just pick away at people in a negative fashion. I'm questioning good and bad and whether there is an objective standard one can refer to and you are putting words into my mouth or simply inferring things not intended.

Peace http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by redzed:



mate this is the problem you don't seem to listen or to consider what others say you just pick away at people in a negative fashion.



There you go again calling me negative. It's getting really annoying. What is negative about me trying to understand what your belief system is?

quote:Originally posted by redzed:



I'm questioning good and bad and whether there is an objective standard one can refer to and you are putting words into my mouth or simply inferring things not intended.

What words am I putting in your mouth? The thread about God possibly being evil seems to be missing, so I can't quote you on anything, but I'm pretty sure that your position was that there was no good or bad. Was that not your position?

quote:Originally posted by Martini:

What words am I putting in your mouth? The thread about God possibly being evil seems to be missing, so I can't quote you on anything, but I'm pretty sure that your position was that there was no good or bad. Was that not your position?



"I'm questioning good and bad and whether there is an objective standard one can refer to "

If using insulting language is not a negative thing then perhaps there is no right or wrong?

Peace http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by redzed:



"I'm questioning good and bad and whether there is an objective standard one can refer to "

Yes, I realize what you're doing now. You weren't questioning good and bad in other threads, you said that good and bad didn't exist. I asked you whether or not that was your position. How about answering me?



quote:Originally posted by redzed:



If using insulting language is not a negative thing then perhaps there is no right or wrong?

Are you still hung up on language I've used on you in the past? When are you going to stop bringing it up? What's your angle on continuously bringing this up?

quote:Originally posted by redzed:



"I'm questioning good and bad and whether there is an objective standard one can refer to "

Yes, I realize what you're doing now. You weren't questioning good and bad in other threads, you said that good and bad didn't exist. I asked you whether or not that was indeed your position in those other threads. How about answering me?



quote:Originally posted by redzed:



If using insulting language is not a negative thing then perhaps there is no right or wrong?

Are you still hung up on language I've used on you in the past? When are you going to stop bringing it up? What's your angle on continuously bringing this up?

quote:Originally posted by Martini:

Are you still hung up on language I've used on you in the past? When are you going to stop bringing it up? What's your angle on continuously bringing this up?



Naturally suspicious of someone who insults me, passes it off as a joke, gives no apology and then continues with the subtle put-downs -- "are you still hung up". I'm not hung up on anything, what do you expect if you're going to verbally assault others? I'm going to call you on it each and every time you use insulting, patronising, whatever language, because you are acting like all those other trolls who think distressing other people a form of amusement.

Namaste http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by redzed:



I'm going to call you on it each and every time you use insulting, patronising, whatever language, because you are acting like all those other trolls who think distressing other people a form of amusement.

Okay, so call me on it every time. Why bring anything up in this thread?

Are you going to answer my question from my last post?