Jesus thought his second coming would occur before the death of all the people who were living at that time. There are a great many texts that prove that. He says, for instance: "Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel till the Son of Man be come." Then He says: "There are some standing here which shall not taste death till the Son of Man comes into His kingdom"; and there are a lot of places where it is quite clear that He believed His second coming would happen during the lifetime of many then living. That was the belief of his earlier followers, and it was the basis of a good deal of His moral teaching. When He said, "Take no thought for the morrow," and things of that sort, it was very largely because He thought the second coming was going to be very soon, and that all ordinary mundane affairs did not count. I have, as a matter of fact, known some Christians who did believe the second coming was imminent. I knew a parson who frightened his congregation terribly by telling them that the second coming was very imminent indeed, but they were much consoled when they found that he was planting trees in his garden. The early Christians really did believe it, and they did abstain from such things as planting trees in their gardens, because they did accept from Christ the belief that the second coming was imminent. In this respect clearly He was not so wise as some other people have been, and he certainly was not superlatively wise.

Lifetime of their souls, or of their mortal lives?

quote:Originally posted by easeoflife22:

Lifetime of their souls, or of their mortal lives?

Are you proposing that when Jesus was speaking to ordinary people that he wanted to get through to, and he said, "There are some standing here which shall not taste death till the Son of Man comes into His kingdom", he was saying that there souls will not die till the Son of Man comes into His kingdom, but after that their souls will die?

quote:Originally posted by Raw_Power:

Jesus thought his second coming would occur before the death of all the people who were living at that time.

..........

In this respect clearly He was not so wise as some other people have been, and he certainly was not superlatively wise.

Some background: I was raised in a church that believed the 2nd coming was imminent, there were tons of books and virtually every second sermon was on it! Looking back, it's liking looking back on a scourge in my life, what a rotten way to live. It was like living under threat, one felt as though one had to obtain the perfection they taught, and maintain it constantly[including paying 10% of one's income http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)] unless one 'fell' and got left behind. As a kid I had nightmares about that http://www.totse.com/bbs/redface.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/redface.gif), how intense is that? We met 3-4 times a week and most socialising was with other church members.

Unless you have lived thru that I doubt you would understand, growing from a child being told by your 'most significant other', your teachers, the preachers, and others, that what they taught was truth. For starters there was 'us' and 'them', us ' the only "true" followers of Jesus/God, the 'remnant church', they were the 'world'. We were 'saved' sinners http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif) and they were 'evil' http://www.totse.com/bbs/mad.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/mad.gif), meaning one could not trust them and it would actually be best not to talk with them. Unless, one was trying to convert them, that was ok, but you could not allow any of their reasoning to amount to anything because 'they', were "of the Devil" http://www.totse.com/bbs/eek.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/eek.gif)!

That movement dates back to 1844 when a bloke called Miller worked out the 2nd coming prophecies would occur that year. Lots of people followed him, the events of that time seeming to agree with his predictions. (Bahai's also believed that was the second coming and it was fulfilled by their prophet Baha'u'llah, one Bahai book includes diagrams of the extraordinary astronomical events, stars falling etc.,) Many of Millers followers lost out big time having given away property, or not harvested crops. Still they believed Miller when he re-examined the prophecies and discovered he had the date wrong! The next time is called "The Great Disappointment", wrong again! Some of his followers still did not realise their folly, formed new religions and continue to this date preaching ignorance as tho it were fact.

The scholars of the Jesus Seminar have this to say about the verse you have quoted(Matthew 10:23):

quote:Verse 23 refelects the eschatological intensity of Matthew's vision: persecution will cause the emissaries to flee from one city to another. But they will not have gone through all the cities of "Israel" before the end comes with the appearance of the son of Adam(presented here as an eschatological figure).

All this is far removed from Jesus' perspective. {Five Gospels P.170}

In this case the scholars do not believe Matthew's gospel was actually written by the Apostle but rather by a later evangelist of/using the same name. The scholars research indicates Matt 10:23 was the addition of a later religious entity and was intended to serve their purpose.

Interesting to note the siginificant events and the emergence of the Baha'i who believe their prophet fulfilled the prophecies and they say it was not Jesus the man that came again but: the "Christ Consciousness" that had been incarnate in the man Jesus returned in the man Baha'u'llah.

He was persecuted and imprisoned most of his life by the Muslim authorities, he wrote prolifically to world leaders advocating things like: the emancipation of women, the natural unity of humanity, the commonalities of the various religions and the necessity for a 'melding' of those traditions, and; the establishment of a United Nations.

It's hard to say what Jesus may or may not have actually said seeing as it's all hearsay, but here's the verses from Matthew the scholars of the Jesus Semianr felt confident could have been what Jesus said:

Matt 5:39-42, 5:44, 13:33, 20:1-15, 22:21.

Not much huh? In light of that, it's probable that vested interests, perhaps the religious and political authorities, put words into Jesus mouth - would that be likely? Unheard of?

Peace http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Right, so uh, why the fuck do people believe this shit. :-

quote:Originally posted by Raw_Power:

Right, so uh, why the fuck do people believe this shit. :-

"Unless you have lived thru that I doubt you would understand, growing from a child being told by your 'most significant other', your teachers, the preachers, and others, that what they taught was truth. For starters there was 'us' and 'them', us ' the only "true" followers of Jesus/God, the 'remnant church', they were the 'world'. We were 'saved' sinners and they were 'evil' , meaning one could not trust them and it would actually be best not to talk with them. Unless, one was trying to convert them, that was ok, but you could not allow any of their reasoning to amount to anything because 'they', were "of the Devil" !"

It's like a computer that's been programmed a certain way, not that th ehuman brain is exactly like a computer, but until one reaches a certain point in life, coulld be a trauma, could be anything, and begins to question one's beliefs to honestly examine them, well it takes some courage. To face up to having held onto erroneous beliefs, that realisation in itself is big enough, it brings on a certain amount of cringe factor; remembering all the passionate sorties one participated in and seeing it now as a nonsense, and then having to deal with family and friends some of whom will be severely challenged by your change of heart and often they go on the attack or just shun.

Lots of reasons, if you wan tto know more check out this forum http://www.aimoo.com/forum/freeboard.cfm?id=319472

have a read of the Personal Introductions.

Peace bwithu http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

OP assumes that all the quotes attributed to Jesus in the Bible are true and accurate. They are not. Some, if not many, are sheer fabrications.

Others have been terribly garbled in the process of having been translated from Aramaic to Greek to Vulgate Latin to English.

quote:Originally posted by ArmsMerchant:

OP assumes that all the quotes attributed to Jesus in the Bible are true and accurate. They are not. Some, if not many, are sheer fabrications.

Others have been terribly garbled in the process of having been translated from Aramaic to Greek to Vulgate Latin to English.

Why believe any of it then? Which parts are his and which aren't, hmmmmm?

Most of the religions that preach this are small christian denominations. we should just re-educate them, or send them to death camps or something.

quote:Originally posted by Raw_Power:



Why believe any of it then? Which parts are his and which aren't, hmmmmm?

I read so much of the Bible and loved it, but that required a sort of spiritual schotoma, where the unsavoury bits were set aside and never truly 'seen' for what they are. Comes from being told the story with a certain slant, peer pressure, parent, etc.

Friend of mine gave me a copy of the Bhagavad Gita by Yogananda, not a bad read: Presented as a metaphor, set in the scene of a battle between opposing armies in a civil war - brother against brother. The characters, the generals of the armies, their advisors and officers, the battle, is shown to be an analogy of the battle between the soul and the ego, each character personifying the opposites like soul vs ego, wisdom vs folly would be rpresented by warriors on either side. After reading it my view of the bible changed, it is clear that it too is an analogy.

Taken literally much of the bible is nonsense, talking donkeys, floating axeheads, sun standing still in sky ... http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif); the squabbles over it's meaning are the cause of immense division and human suffering. As an analogy, interpreted thru each individual reader's mind, the metaphors are messages like those of the Bhagavad Gita. Ancient wisdom encoded in a form that makes it difficult for the powermongers, the vested interests, the 'dark side', to use for nefarious purposes. The metaphor is often lost(thru means outlined by AM), but much of it is obvious, when one reads it as analogy rather than literal, word for word, from the mouth of god, truth.

"The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness does not comprehend it" from the first chapter of John spoke to me as an analogy: the light is the encoded message, the darkness represents all those of darkened minds and purpose who act from delusional motives(such as those like some tele-evangelists preaching the one 'true' religion, with hidden motives to use the tithes and offerings for an extravagant lifestyle), not being able to "comprehend" the 'light/message', the ones seeking to use it are defeated because no matter how much they try to bend it to their purpose the message is not ever able to be understood by them. It can only be fully understood by the honest individual seeking for truth, and if perchance one of the darkness should begin to understand they will be transformed.

When you read a straight out story like a parable of a house being built on sand compared to stone, it's an obvious story, the exoteric message is like a child's bedtime story, the esoteric message is(for me could differ for others) about what foundations a person relies on in choosing how to conduct one's life, one's career, ethics, morals and such.

Becoming free from that literal view opened up a new world for me, connected more dots, the bible became one culture's, one nation's, record of a similar struggle to that which caused the Hindus to write their holy books. The Garden of Eden made sense, the "Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil" is a dead giveaway that the story is metaphorical(beggars me now why I didn't see it first read http://www.totse.com/bbs/redface.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/redface.gif)). After all, when did you last see a "Tree of The Knowledge of Good and Evil"? Where would one expect to find a 'family tree' in a garden or a library? http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

Namaste http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

^ is it safe to assume you are a seventh day adventist (or something like that?) they make me lol

Of course, if you're a bible humper and you refuse to be wrong no matter what, he only meant it figuratively.

quote:Originally posted by MongolianThroatCancer:

^ is it safe to assume you are a seventh day adventist (or something like that?) they make me lol

Is it ever safe to assume anything or does it always make one appear an ass? http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

Peace http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by MongolianThroatCancer:

^ is it safe to assume you are a seventh day adventist (or something like that?) they make me lol

lawl @ semi-WACO