With the movement from traditional beliefs to a trust of science and commerce, does this mean that God is dead in the hearts of modern men - killed by rationalism and science?

Does this bring up a situation where peoples lives are not particularly constrained by considerations of morality or particularly guided by any faith related sense of purpose?

If there is no God, then there is no real reason to be moral at all. In fact, there is no morality. We can all do what the fuck we want. However, most people choose to be decent to other people on the basis that if everyone did what they wanted it would be anarchy.

-deus-

quote:Originally posted by deus-redux:

If there is no God, then there is no real reason to be moral at all. In fact, there is no morality. We can all do what the fuck we want. However, most people choose to be decent to other people on the basis that if everyone did what they wanted it would be anarchy.

-deus-



I'd be more willing to listen to you if you didn't sign your online name after every post like a dousche.



[This message has been edited by MadMaster (edited 09-22-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by MadMaster:



I'd be more willing to listen to you if you didn't sign your online name after every post like a dousche.



Whats that got to do with the quality of his post?

quote:Originally posted by Source:

Whats that got to do with the quality of his post?

Everything. I mean, we can fucking see his username to the side of the post, no need to read it again at the bottom.

Cheers,

Zay

quote:Originally posted by deus-redux:

If there is no God, then there is no real reason to be moral at all. In fact, there is no morality. We can all do what the fuck we want. However, most people choose to be decent to other people on the basis that if everyone did what they wanted it would be anarchy.

-deus-

So, complete anarchy and chaos is not a good enough "real reason" for you? If the only good reason for being moral to you is the reward of an afterlife, then it would be scary to think what you would do if it was proven that there's no afterlife.

Morality is a human construction, we set its rules for our own well-being. Human happiness, in THIS life that we actually know it exists, is all the reason we need to be moral, and that's what morality should be about.

quote:Originally posted by deus-redux:

If there is no God, then there is no real reason to be moral at all. In fact, there is no morality. We can all do what the fuck we want. However, most people choose to be decent to other people on the basis that if everyone did what they wanted it would be anarchy.

-deus-

I know plenty of Christians who cheat on their taxes, lust after women, and do a lot of other things that the Bible tells them is immoral. Some of these same Christians have told me that all sins are equal in the eyes of God. So what keeps them from clubbing an old man over the head for ten extra bucks when they need it? Is it only fear of human punishment? It can't be fear of God if they think all sins are equal and they're committing other sins. The answer is guilt.

Moral codes were around before beliefs in gods and all societies around the world have moral codes, whether or not they believe in gods. As a whole, theists are not any more moral than atheists.

If you believe that there is no reason to be moral without belief in God, I have a few articles I'd like you to read:

http://mwillett.org/atheism/moralsource.htm http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/schick_17_3.html http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/cherry_18_1.01.html

quote:Originally posted by deus-redux:

If there is no God, then there is no real reason to be moral at all.

Why? You're saying that morality is dependent on God.

Then is something "moral" only because God says it is moral? If so, morality is something arbitrarily decided by God, it has no intrinsic substance. And therefore if God EXISTS there is no good reason to be "moral" if you don't believe in God or choose to worship him.

Unless you mean that the only reason to be moral without God existing is because he punishes immoral behaviour. But then that only applies to specific definitions of God, not the general concept of a divine being.

I'm an athiest and I have a high standard of morality. Mainly, I don't want to live in the world where everyone is a predator, where everyone steals, kills, and acts like animals. A society cannot survive without a code of ethics that allows us to work together, or else we would just feed off eachother and everything that brings so much good to our lives would collapse. By me not killing, stealing, acting like an asshole, and by displaying good attitude and initiative towards this common goal, is my way of contributing to the way I'd like to see the world.

Ironically, because of my high morality, I'm technically a very good Christian, and if Heaven does exist, I'm sure I'll be accepted based on my choices and contribution to the planets persuit of peace.

God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we, murderers of all murderers, console ourselves? That which was the holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet possessed has bled to death under our knives. Who will wipe this blood off us? With what water could we purify ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we need to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we not ourselves become gods simply to be worthy of it?

— Nietzsche, The Gay Science, Section 125, tr.

quote:Originally posted by MadMaster:

With the movement from traditional beliefs to a trust of science and commerce, does this mean that God is dead in the hearts of modern men - killed by rationalism and science?

Does this bring up a situation where peoples lives are not particularly constrained by considerations of morality or particularly guided by any faith related sense of purpose?

Can't see it, either the: "God is dead" psotulate or; your question on morality. The 'god' debate seems to be as prominent now as ever, and morals seem always to reflect one's culture ameliorated by one's level of consciousness.

I wonder whether humans are capable of a rational debate about god seeing as most seem to already have created their own image of god. An image formed by indoctrination, education, experiences: how far from the Logos of the Greeks to Jehovah to the Tao? If one does not comprehend others God-views how to rationally discuss them?

Peace http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Martini:

If you believe that there is no reason to be moral without belief in God, I have a few articles I'd like you to read:

h ttp://mwil lett.org/a theism/mor alsource.htm (http: //mwillett .org/athei sm/moralso urce.htm) http:/ /www.secul arhumanism.org/library/fi/schick_17_3.html (http: //www.secu larhumanis m.org/libr ary/fi/sch ick_17_3.h tml) htt p://www.se cularhumanism.org/library/fi/cherry_18_1.01.html (http: //www.secu larhumanis m.org/libr ary/fi/che rry_18_1.0 1.html)



I have one more I'd like to add to that collection:

http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/carrot&stick.html

quote:Originally posted by DeuceOmen:

God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we, murderers of all murderers, console ourselves? That which was the holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet possessed has bled to death under our knives. Who will wipe this blood off us? With what water could we purify ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we need to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we not ourselves become gods simply to be worthy of it?

— Nietzsche, The Gay Science, Section 125, tr.

Are you going to explain Nietzsche's point of view, or did you just google "god is dead" and copy+paste? No offense lol

[This message has been edited by fullcircle (edited 09-26-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by deus-redux:

If there is no God, then there is no real reason to be moral at all.

Morality comes from human empathy, which

is a product of evolution as well

as an efficient tribal survival mechanism.

You lose ten points.

quote:Originally posted by deus-redux:

If there is no God, then there is no real reason to be moral at all...

Others have hit the nail "hard enough" a few times, but the statement is so utterly false and a common contention of Christians in absurdly marked contrast to the evidence all about us... I have to give it a slam, too.

The most sickening thing about the vast majority of religion (with Christianity threatening to "corner the market" on this) is hypocracy and the use of rationalization. I am an atheist, and other atheists I have personally known- on average- were people I would put my trust in with astronomically greater confidence as opposed to the vast majority of Christians. These atheists- in terms of their actions- were far better Christians than almost all Christians I have ever met.

In fact, I don't even consider myself a good person... I'm "OK" but I'm no ethical icon to be sure. But in terms of morality, even I tower over almost all of the Bible ramblers I have ever met- and that's a pretty disgusting statement about how effective religion (or any God fantasy) actually is at inducing ethnicity. In terms of ethics, other atheists I've known put me to shame and leave those bozos in the gutter.

Nice try, but the World just doesn't work that way. You can rationalize anything, and the vagueness and ambiguity of Christian text is sufficient provide enough ammunition to those so inclined as to make Life a free-for-all spin festival... and that's what they do. From why this minister drives a new caddie when he could give that money to the poor and ride a bicycle, to why this dude's beating the crap out of the kids ("spare the rod...", maybe.) Spin, spin, and more spin. Spin to the Nth power. Don't fricken' bother, dipshits... any fool with two eyes can see you're just as much greedy pricks as everyone and anyone else.

Next someone's going to say the Bible's really not vague and ambiguous... yeah, right. A zillion branches of Christianity can't agree on things, and if properly decoding/decrypting it's so esoteric that only your unique branch "has it right," that's a good of a definition of "vague and ambiguous" as I can imagine.

[This message has been edited by SurfBum (edited 09-29-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by elfstone:

So, complete anarchy and chaos is not a good enough "real reason" for you? If the only good reason for being moral to you is the reward of an afterlife, then it would be scary to think what you would do if it was proven that there's no afterlife.

Morality is a human construction, we set its rules for our own well-being. Human happiness, in THIS life that we actually know it exists, is all the reason we need to be moral, and that's what morality should be about.

To add to this fine post, wouldn't only being moral to others because you seek an after-life reward make you immoral, selfish, and obviously an ACTOR/ACTRESS???

Wouldn't a 'god' see through this and decline you the reward of heaven or w/e the after-life reward is???

Behaving moral because you want something in return doesn't make you a moral person, you're only pretending to be a moral person. Exercising good morals because you feel it is the right thing to do makes you a moral person.

At least, that's what I believe....

The idea that without a fantasy "God" threatening punishment everyone would be out raping and pillaging is ridiculous.

EDITED TO ADD...

Commenting on the last post, we can't control which thoughts come into our minds- only what we do. At a psychic level, we really have little control over whether we're "good" or "evil" people (assuming there are such things.)

We do have some control, however, in terms of what we do. But if a God bases judgment upon our inner attitudes as opposed to (or in addition to) our actions, alot of us are "just screwed" and there's not much we can do about it. RE which among us are so predestined for a fire-and-brimstone enema (and which aren't)... nobody knows... but I'd guess that I, for one, are pretty badly hosed.

[This message has been edited by SurfBum (edited 09-30-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by SurfBum:

The idea that without a fantasy "God" threatening punishment everyone would be out raping and pillaging is ridiculous.

The reality of human history shows it is often the proclaimed followers of "God" who are the oppressors of their fellows enacting dastardly deeds of inhumanity in the name of a 'loving' deity. Claiming to have infallible truth, their actions demonstrate their ignorance and depth of delusion. They illustrate the danger to humanity of those who claim to have a monopoly on morality.

Peace http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by redzed:

...Claiming to have infallible truth...

RE above post, I wholeheartedly agree, with emphasis upon infallible truth (no need wondering which infallible truth as such pertains to any given question we're talking about... we can take our pick.) I suppose that's one of the more overt examples of why people who are absolutely, stone-cold sure of themselves make me damn nervous!

[This message has been edited by SurfBum (edited 09-30-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by DeuceOmen:

God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we, murderers of all murderers, console ourselves? That which was the holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet possessed has bled to death under our knives. Who will wipe this blood off us? With what water could we purify ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we need to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we not ourselves become gods simply to be worthy of it?

— Nietzsche, The Gay Science, Section 125, tr.

Nicely quoted. The first post is almost word for word from Nietzshe's Zarathustra.

But for the rest of you, (the one's clinging on to relligion), I can't and probably never will see where you're coming from. I've sat in on gatherings of the religious kind (In jail) and it scared me to hear, "Don't put faith in your friends. Your friends will only let you down. Instead, put your faith in god. God Won't ever let you down."

And it's true. God can never let you down because it can't be built up into anything. All you can do is pray. Why not just hope instead? Get's the same thing accomplished.

I've also recently heard at a funeral, "... Barbara died. But she is in a better place because she has asked for Jesus to forgive her. It's not late to save your selves. All you have to do is let Jesus into your heart." How do I do that? Rhetorical question. I know any I'd get would be retarded and metaphorical.

ONe other thing I've seen on a piece of paper that was handed out at church showed Humans on one cliff and God on the other. There was a deep gap seperating the two representing Mans sins between god. Then it went on to explain that the only way to cross that gap was through Jesus, (And showed the gap closed by a cross).

In my eyes Jesus is a way to trick into christianity. He's already died for your sins so it's like you owe him.

I know that's a bit all over the place but with something so incomprehensible to understand, I don't know where to start.

God isn't dead, Religion is dead. Just like the Zionists wanted.

quote:Originally posted by deus-redux:

If there is no God, then there is no real reason to be moral at all. In fact, there is no morality. We can all do what the fuck we want. However, most people choose to be decent to other people on the basis that if everyone did what they wanted it would be anarchy.

-deus-

That strikes me as an immoral thought. If you thought you wouldn't go to hell would you be a wanker just for the sake of being a wanker? Anyway, anarchy isn't what you think it is, it's more of a state of disorganisation, maybe you should read more.