øI took this out of a journal I discovered at a companion's home. Now, she is well-versed in religion, mind you, so this might not be the dribble that I mistook it for. I would like some of you to take a look at it and judge it accordingly. And do so with mind, not with belief.ø

As a human being, I am constantly conflicting over religion. This, I suppose, is about as common as breathing. I do not know the secrets of the universe, and those who claim to know are those not to be listened to.

There was a time when those who gave up God's word were radical people. Others saw them as extreme and even foolish. The younger generation, however, fell in love with the atheist populace, and soon converted.

Or did they?

If you, and hopefully you do, communicate with other people around you, you will get quite alot of anti-god speeches from several lips. You will find many people saying how much bullshit religion is. You probably encounter an atheist at least once a week.

Here is the point. Those who claim to be an Atheist are those who are dwelling in a false belief. And Atheist is so because he can afford to be an Atheist. He has lost the knowledge of death and is so wrapped up in safety that he knows nothing of fear or danger.

When the world takes a turn for the worse, Atheists will dwindle in number because they begin to find the nothing they embrace to hold no comfort. They will seek the religions with afterlife attached, or die, because knowing that nothing is watching over you leaves you feeling helpless and alone. When survival is necessary, these feelings will hinder the would-be survivor.

Religion keeps human beings going when all looks hopeless. It is a key benefactor to human survival. So, bullshit or no, it is necessary. An Atheist's goal is to eliminate religion. An Atheist is, basically, against human survival.



ø Is religion necessary to human morale and survival, regardless of truth? Does that mean an Atheist basically believes in stripping humans of the drive that will keep them going when all seems hopeless? I hear a lot about people in near-death situations who suddenly begin to ask god for help. Well, tell me. Your opinion counts.ø

The typical religious fear-mongering.

No, my friend, we don't need religion to give us hope and meaning. It's not atheism who is obsessed with the afterlife, and thus death, it is religion. Religion glorifies death, atheism glorifies life.

If you need God to not feel helpless and alone, it is because you ignore your fellow human beings who surround you. Seeking comfort in the supernatural and not those who surround you should be considered pathological.

People come in near-death situations all the time, but you only hear the side of those who survive. How is religion supposed to contribute to human survival when it fuels wars and hinders scientific progress?

quote:Originally posted by elfstone:

The typical religious fear-mongering.

No, my friend, we don't need religion to give us hope and meaning. It's not atheism who is obsessed with the afterlife, and thus death, it is religion. Religion glorifies death, atheism glorifies life.

If you need God to not feel helpless and alone, it is because you ignore your fellow human beings who surround you. Seeking comfort in the supernatural and not those who surround you should be considered pathological.

People come in near-death situations all the time, but you only hear the side of those who survive. How is religion supposed to contribute to human survival when it fuels wars and hinders scientific progress?

Wrong, religion, if you follow it in a moral fashion, glorifies life. Atheism glorifies whatever the atheist wants.

As for people ignoring their mankind, what do you expect now'a'days? People are so trashy it's not a wonder people search for god.

Atheism is life affirming because we only have one life, thus we want to make the best of the life we have.

quote:Originally posted by coolwestman:

Wrong, religion, if you follow it in a moral fashion, glorifies life. Atheism glorifies whatever the atheist wants.



Please explain how a religion that preaches asceticism and forbearance in life for the sake of a glorious afterlife glorifies life.

Yep, we're anti-human - not the ones who have tortured and killed millions in the name of their beliefs.

Yay for logic!

I am an atheist. I am kinder, more generous, and happier than every single religious person I've ever met.

I'm not saying religious people can't be good people, of course; but I'm trying to show that atheism doesn't have any relation to what kind of person you are. It's just an absence of theism, not an absence of hope or of joy or love or whatever else.

Religion does not keep me going when all looks hopeless; it never did. I keep going because I have decided myself to keep trying. My efforts are born of my own will and optimism. I think that's much better than a false hope driven by ancient books of myth.

Knowing that nothing is watching over me does not make me feel helpless and alone. It makes me feel free and exhilerated; the world is my oyster! I am sinking or swimming in a huge and wondrous cosmos - not in God's bathtub, not in the palm of some giant hand. I would keep going when survival is necessary not because I think someone is watching over me (actually, I would STOP going if I thought there was a God - he'll watch out for me, right? I'm going to heaven, right? Why struggle?), but because I myself want to live.

quote:Originally posted by FunkyZombie:

Please explain how a religion that preaches asceticism and forbearance in life for the sake of a glorious afterlife glorifies life.

Desire is the root of all suffering, if we deny our desires then life can become happier for everyone. Every true spiritual and religous person sacrifices their life for others, therefore they glorify life. The afterlife does not matter.

quote:Originally posted by coolwestman:

Desire is the root of all suffering, if we deny our desires then life can become happier for everyone. Every true spiritual and religous person sacrifices their life for others, therefore they glorify life. The afterlife does not matter.

Life is the root of all suffering. While it is true that all living things desire, don't confuse the two. Hunger is the only truth in the universe. 'Gnothi se auton', the words written above the oracle at Delphi, sum up the basis of most philosophical systems. Translated, 'Know thyself'. Our desires, our hunger, is what defines us. What other path to self-knowledge than through pursuing them? Not to is to invite degradation. Likewise, as all life holds desire in common, by learning of one's self, we come into the only real understanding possible of our fellow humans. To sacrifice essential parts of what it is to be human is an abomination, whether it be in the name of an afterlife, 'transcending illusion', or simply a misguided belief that there is but a finite supply of joy in the world, and your suffering is therefore somehow noble. I urge you to reconsider.

quote:Originally posted by coolwestman:

Desire is the root of all suffering, if we deny our desires then life can become happier for everyone. Every true spiritual and religous person sacrifices their life for others, therefore they glorify life. The afterlife does not matter.

So you desire to glorify life, eh? http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif) The only way you can sacrifice your life for others is if a.) others have desires you can fufill and b.) you don't value yourself enough to fufill your own desires - i.e., if you actually don't glorify your life at all.

Nobody is technicaly atheist everyone has their god of sorts and their spirituality of sorts. Athiesm only exsists in true nihilism.

quote:Originally posted by Apocalypse Wanderer:



They will seek the religions with afterlife attached, or die, because knowing that nothing is watching over you leaves you feeling helpless and alone.



Funny, Ive always used that as a reason why some people latch on to religion without regard to validity or logic, like an emotional security blanket.

Note: when I say 'some people' I dont mean 'everyone that is religious.' It just seems that there are a good deal of people that identify themselves with a religion for this reason. Typically, people who follow their religion really half assed, but still want to identify themselves with it as sort of a fail safe for the afterlife.

quote:Originally posted by Kallisti:

Life is the root of all suffering. While it is true that all living things desire, don't confuse the two. Hunger is the only truth in the universe. 'Gnothi se auton', the words written above the oracle at Delphi, sum up the basis of most philosophical systems. Translated, 'Know thyself'. Our desires, our hunger, is what defines us. What other path to self-knowledge than through pursuing them? Not to is to invite degradation. Likewise, as all life holds desire in common, by learning of one's self, we come into the only real understanding possible of our fellow humans. To sacrifice essential parts of what it is to be human is an abomination, whether it be in the name of an afterlife, 'transcending illusion', or simply a misguided belief that there is but a finite supply of joy in the world, and your suffering is therefore somehow noble. I urge you to reconsider.

Wrong, it doesn't matter if you live. If you desire and don't get what you desire you will always suffer. Suffering is in the mind. We are not made up by our desires or our hungers. Hah, you think sacrificing greed and lust is inhuman? If we weren't controlled by such egotistical behavior we might be superior to common animals. I urge you to reconsider, because desire is just a part of the animal mind. To become true humans we must renounce such.

quote:

those who claim to know are those not to be listened to.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

I hope she understands why she doesn't know...

http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

what the hell, i'm an atheist and i never say religion is just a crutch for the weak because, it's mostly not AND it makes me sound like a pompous asshole. but in her speech she basically said just that.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif)

quote:Originally posted by coolwestman:

Desire is the root of all suffering, if we deny our desires then life can become happier for everyone. Every true spiritual and religous person sacrifices their life for others, therefore they glorify life. The afterlife does not matter.

do you desire an eternal life in heaven?

i assume so, so you sir are evil.

quote:Originally posted by coolwestman:

Wrong, it doesn't matter if you live. If you desire and don't get what you desire you will always suffer. Suffering is in the mind. We are not made up by our desires or our hungers. Hah, you think sacrificing greed and lust is inhuman? If we weren't controlled by such egotistical behavior we might be superior to common animals. I urge you to reconsider, because desire is just a part of the animal mind. To become true humans we must renounce such.



The bible teaches that shitting is an evil sin. Must we all stop shitting lest we fall into the evil grips of constipation?

quote:Originally posted by coolwestman:

Wrong, it doesn't matter if you live. If you desire and don't get what you desire you will always suffer. Suffering is in the mind. We are not made up by our desires or our hungers. Hah, you think sacrificing greed and lust is inhuman? If we weren't controlled by such egotistical behavior we might be superior to common animals. I urge you to reconsider, because desire is just a part of the animal mind. To become true humans we must renounce such.

Humans are animals, our only difference is our superior intellect and rationality. It is through intelligence and rationality that we are not slaves to our desires, the desires themselves are not evil, they are natural. Greed and lust have such negative meaning exactly because they are urges that forgo rational thinking. Suppressing the desires underneath though is also irrational. The desire to excel and prosper is not something to suppress because it may lead to greed; your intelligence is there to mediate. Satisfying your desire for sexual pleasure is not what leads to suffering, it is suppressing this natural desire. Again it's your intelligence to stop it from becoming "lust" (assuming an obsessive meaning for this word).

Religion fights human nature in assigning suffering to natural desires. And it also undermines intelligence as what makes us human. No, religion doesn't glorify life, because it has no idea what it really is.

quote:Originally posted by 3126:



The bible teaches that shitting is an evil sin. Must we all stop shitting lest we fall into the evil grips of constipation?

Proof or stfu. BTW the bible isn't the only book to look to for spiritual knowledge.

quote:Originally posted by elfstone:

Humans are animals, our only difference is our superior intellect and rationality. It is through intelligence and rationality that we are not slaves to our desires, the desires themselves are not evil, they are natural. Greed and lust have such negative meaning exactly because they are urges that forgo rational thinking. Suppressing the desires underneath though is also irrational. The desire to excel and prosper is not something to suppress because it may lead to greed; your intelligence is there to mediate. Satisfying your desire for sexual pleasure is not what leads to suffering, it is suppressing this natural desire. Again it's your intelligence to stop it from becoming "lust" (assuming an obsessive meaning for this word).

Religion fights human nature in assigning suffering to natural desires. And it also undermines intelligence as what makes us human. No, religion doesn't glorify life, because it has no idea what it really is.

The fact that we have superior intellect and rationality can make us worse than animals. Man has the the ability to be beyond animals.

Assigning suffering to natural desires? If none of us were effected by natural desire the world would be a better place. Religion doesn't want you to supress your desires, but to understand why they happen. When you understand why they happen you can then act in better ways using your intellect and rationality. Religon glorifies life by making it better for everyone. Well those who follow it truly anyways.

quote:Originally posted by coolwestman:

The fact that we have superior intellect and rationality can make us worse than animals. Man has the the ability to be beyond animals.

Assigning suffering to natural desires? If none of us were effected by natural desire the world would be a better place. Religion doesn't want you to supress your desires, but to understand why they happen. When you understand why they happen you can then act in better ways using your intellect and rationality. Religon glorifies life by making it better for everyone. Well those who follow it truly anyways.

Wrong. If we had no desires we would accomplish nothing, because we wouldn't want to!

There would be no planes, no internet, no forums, no computers, no governments, no lovely 3 layer chocolate cakes, no jello, nothing.

Sure the garden of eden sounds appealing, in the weekend vacation sort of way.

But desires make life fun. And getting what you want just makes it worth it sometimes.

That girl you drool over in class, that's a desire. You don't NEED her, but you want her.

Those straight As you strive for, you don't NEED them, you want them.



And yeah, Twisted_Ferret. Agree with everything you said.

Especially: I am an atheist. I am kinder, more generous, and happier than every single religious person I've ever met.

Most religious people I know are unhappy, stressed, rude, etc.

you have no conception of the motivations of atheists over the age of 16.

quote:Originally posted by ShouldTrip:

Wrong. If we had no desires we would accomplish nothing, because we wouldn't want to!

There would be no planes, no internet, no forums, no computers, no governments, no lovely 3 layer chocolate cakes, no jello, nothing.

Sure the garden of eden sounds appealing, in the weekend vacation sort of way.

But desires make life fun. And getting what you want just makes it worth it sometimes.

That girl you drool over in class, that's a desire. You don't NEED her, but you want her.

Those straight As you strive for, you don't NEED them, you want them.



And yeah, Twisted_Ferret. Agree with everything you said.

Especially: I am an atheist. I am kinder, more generous, and happier than every single religious person I've ever met.

Most religious people I know are unhappy, stressed, rude, etc.

Wrong. Desire is not greater than necessity and desire only mean the advancement of materialism.

quote:Originally posted by coolwestman:

Religon glorifies life by making it better for everyone. Well those who follow it truly anyways.

I am perfectly content and not religious. My best friend is depressed and devout.

What's this about "better"? "Better" is a matter of desires. If we desire nothing, nothing can be better or worse than something else. Only if we recognize one state as being preferable - being more desirable - to another can we speak of making the world better. If you want world peace, then you surely desire an end to wars. If you think suffering is bad, then you desire to end it. If you think happiness is best, then you desire to achieve it. And how can happiness be achieved except by the fufillment of desires? Whether it's the desire to glorify life that makes you happy, or the desire to copulate with a woman.

If you want life to be better for everyone, even that is a desire. Lack of desire means lack of humanity; if you truly do not desire anything, then you would never move (if you want nothing, why need you to shift yourself? surely every place is equal for someone who desires nothing - or do you desire to move to a differewnt place?). Never eat (desire food? desire to live?). There is, in fact, no point to life if you have no desire; that is basically saying that you do not have any goal or purpose.

quote:Originally posted by Twisted_Ferret:

Originally posted by coolwestman:

Religon glorifies life by making it better for everyone. Well those who follow it truly anyways.

I am perfectly content and not religious. My best friend is depressed and devout.

What's this about "better"? "Better" is a matter of desires. If we desire nothing, nothing can be better or worse than something else. Only if we recognize one state as being preferable - being more desirable - to another can we speak of making the world better. If you want world peace, then you surely desire an end to wars. If you think suffering is bad, then you desire to end it. If you think happiness is best, then you desire to achieve it. And how can happiness be achieved except by the fufillment of desires? Whether it's the desire to glorify life that makes you happy, or the desire to copulate with a woman.

If you want life to be better for everyone, even that is a desire. Lack of desire means lack of humanity; if you truly do not desire anything, then you would never move (if you want nothing, why need you to shift yourself? surely every place is equal for someone who desires nothing - or do you desire to move to a differewnt place?). Never eat (desire food? desire to live?). There is, in fact, no point to life if you have no desire; that is basically saying that you do not have any goal or purpose.

There is a difference between desire and necessity, if everyone acted out of necessity then things would be much better, end of discussion.

quote:Originally posted by coolwestman:

There is a difference between desire and necessity, if everyone acted out of necessity then things would be much better, end of discussion.

Admirable refutation, there. Verily, I have been pwned. Who knew that repeating the same flawed idea over and over (and ending it with "end of discussion" - an incredible triumph of logic and eloquence) was actually a viable debating tactic, procuring victory without fail?!

quote:Originally posted by Twisted_Ferret:

Originally posted by coolwestman:

There is a difference between desire and necessity, if everyone acted out of necessity then things would be much better, end of discussion.

Admirable refutation, there. Verily, I have been pwned. Who knew that repeating the same flawed idea over and over (and ending it with "end of discussion" - an incredible triumph of logic and eloquence) was actually a viable debating tactic, procuring victory without fail?!

How is it wrong? Do you not know the differnce between what is necessary for life and what is wanted?

quote:Originally posted by coolwestman:

How is it wrong? Do you not know the differnce between what is necessary for life and what is wanted?

There is no difference. Why is the desire to live any different from any other desire?

What is the point of living if you do not desire anything else? You eat to keep yourself alive; you do what is "necessary" (to fufill a desire, i.e. the desire to live and "glorify life")... and then what?

Edit: This doesn't address my other points, either; namely, that there can be no "better" without desires. You seem to be changing your position: first, we are supposed to desire what is "better", to "glorify life", and now we are only supposed to desire what is "necessary"; that is, necessary to live only.

Edit2: Besides which, the only religion which recommends you desire nothing is Buddhism. You are incorrect in saying, then, that "religion" is the path to "glorifying life" by being desireless. Besides that, you have yet to show in any way how desiring only what is "necessary" improves anything; you have not shown what is "better" in your opinion; you have not defined "glorifying life"; you have really done nothing but make empty claims. I don't know why I'm bothering... this is less a debate than a travesty.

[This message has been edited by Twisted_Ferret (edited 10-01-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by coolwestman:

How is it wrong? Do you not know the differnce between what is necessary for life and what is wanted?



What is necessary for life is eating, sleeping and craping. That's what you meant by glorification of life?

If we desire nothing, nothing can be better or worse than something else.

-Twisted_Ferret

If we had no desires we would accomplish nothing, because we wouldn't want to!

-ShouldTrip

Religion fights human nature in assigning suffering to natural desires. And it also undermines intelligence as what makes us human.

-elfstone



øHere is the writer of that journal entry. She is very pissed that I put it on here and even more livid at your replies. Get ready for the bitchslappings, because they're going to hurt. I'm going to go hide now.ø



I believe we have some interpretation problems here. Oh, and argument issues.

There -are- different definitions for desire, guys. Don't be so god damn literal; open your mind up.

Two desires:

The desire to drink water

You really think a group of people would be that stupid as to say, "the need to drink water is a desire, and thus a sin?" And if you do, I need you to go outside and take big, deep breaths. Your rationality is thinning.

The desire to bang missus Tingleheimer next door because she has big hooters

Big difference. You don't need to screw her to survive. You might actually catch the clap from all the other guys who screwed missus Tingleheimer. Hey, they're only being human!The need to drink water is directly linked to your life. The need to fuck isn't. You do it for the feeling you get. Few have sex to further the species.

Another example: People eat so much goddamn food that their heart can't take the fat and dies. But hey, they were only following their desire, human desire at that, to eat. Look where it got them. Hell, animals follow their desires. Ever seen a goldfish blow up because it didn't stop eating? Sometimes it is a good thing to think, "you know, maybe I am going to suppress this desire."

It irks me when people argue just because they are afraid of admitting that they could be wrong. Oh, and stop looking at religion so -goddamn- literally! You atheists think religion is so rigid. No, religion isn't. If the churches make it look that way, fuck em, they don't know what they're talking about. And neither do you.

Originally posted by ApocalypseWanderer:

quote:[B]øI took this out of a journal I discovered at a companion's home. Now, she is well-versed in religion, mind you, so this might not be the dribble that I mistook it for. I would like some of you to take a look at it and judge it accordingly. And do so with mind, not with belief.ø



OK. Let’s.

quote:As a human being, I am constantly conflicting over religion. This, I suppose, is about as common as breathing. I do not know the secrets of the universe, and those who claim to know are those not to be listened to.

Depends on what you are considering to be the *secrets of the universe*. Many *secrets of the universe* are no longer secret, thanks to science. Left to religion, such *secrets* would still be explained by ”God did it”.

quote:There was a time when those who gave up God's word were radical people. Others saw them as extreme and even foolish. The younger generation, however, fell in love with the atheist populace, and soon converted.

Sit back and consider your statement. From the point of view of the religious person, it would be radical or foolish to disavow the existence of the Being responsible for their existence and welfare. From the atheist’s point of view, it is the religious person who is foolish for believing in an omnipotent Entity who’s existence cannot be determined through physical observation.

The younger generation, by and large, follow whatever they believe to be “cool” at the time. Many , if not most, aren’t sure what they believe.

By the way, you don’t convert to atheism. Atheism is not a religion. It is simply the lack of belief in a God or Gods. You don’t say that someone converted when they ceased to believe in Santa Clause or the Easter Bunny, would you?



quote:Or did they?

If you, and hopefully you do, communicate with other people around you, you will get quite alot of anti-god speeches from several lips. You will find many people saying how much bullshit religion is. You probably encounter an atheist at least once a week.



Actually, this isn’t true. I have been around for a lot of years, and can think of few (if any) instances where atheists volunteered opinions on religion without the subject first being brought up by someone promoting their religious views.

quote:Here is the point. Those who claim to be an Atheist are those who are dwelling in a false belief. And Atheist is so because he can afford to be an Atheist. He has lost the knowledge of death and is so wrapped up in safety that he knows nothing of fear or danger.



You cannot safely make the claim that ”those who claim to be an Atheist are those who are dwelling in a false belief” , unless you are privy to the *secrets of the universe*. Perhaps you should not be listened to…?

An atheist is an atheist because he/she does not believe in a God/Gods. It has nothing to do with losing knowledge of death or being wrapped up in safety. Stateing such a claim is ludicrous.

Atheists do not believe that God exists. It logically follows that an afterlife does not exist. Therefore, atheists place importance on living their lives, not wasting effort on what may happen after death occurs. An atheist’s fear of death is due to the knowledge that one’s existence will cease to be. Not from the fear of eternal punishment.

quote:When the world takes a turn for the worse, Atheists will dwindle in number because they begin to find the nothing they embrace to hold no comfort. They will seek the religions with afterlife attached, or die, because knowing that nothing is watching over you leaves you feeling helpless and alone. When survival is necessary, these feelings will hinder the would-be survivor.

Sorry, but your assumptions are wrong. Atheists don’t look for comfort from that which does not exist. Atheists understand that they have only themselves and others around them to depend on in times of trouble. Understanding that one must depend on one’s self rather than waiting for some magical solution to solve your problems, necessitates action toward solving said problems.

quote:Religion keeps human beings going when all looks hopeless. It is a key benefactor to human survival. So, bullshit or no, it is necessary. An Atheist's goal is to eliminate religion. An Atheist is, basically, against human survival.

Depending and waiting for God to solve your problems will not make you stronger or increase your chances of survival. It actually reduces your chances of survival.

Religion is not a key factor in human survival. It actually hinders the chances of survival in some instances. If we simply accepted that sickness and disease were due to God’s will, we would never have developed vaccines for polio, flu, etc. People would die every day from acute appendicitis, or other relatively simple(by today’s standards) to correct, medical conditions.



Atheist’s have no such goal as to eliminate religion. Many, if not most atheists, do not care one way or the other about religion. There are however radical atheists, as there are likewise radical religious persons, who choose to impose their views on others.

quote:ø Is religion necessary to human morale and survival, regardless of truth? Does that mean an Atheist basically believes in stripping humans of the drive that will keep them going when all seems hopeless? I hear a lot about people in near-death situations who suddenly begin to ask god for help. Well, tell me. Your opinion counts.ø



People in near death situations simply do not wish for their lives to end, and as such, grasp at straws to hold onto that which they have. It doesn’t mean that they suddenly believe in God.

quote:Originally posted by Apocalypse Wanderer:

Two desires:

The desire to drink water

You really think a group of people would be that stupid as to say, "the need to drink water is a desire, and thus a sin?" And if you do, I need you to go outside and take big, deep breaths. Your rationality is thinning.

The desire to bang missus Tingleheimer next door because she has big hooters

Big difference. You don't need to screw her to survive. You might actually catch the clap from all the other guys who screwed missus Tingleheimer. Hey, they're only being human!The need to drink water is directly linked to your life. The need to fuck isn't. You do it for the feeling you get. Few have sex to further the species.

There is no difference. I've already been over this. The desire to survive is no different from any other desire; I don't see why it is given more importance. Besides, all you need to survive is food and water; don't try to tell me that you do not enjoy good food, or music, or even the freedom to move around.

Edit: I also notice that you desire to correct us, and desire to argue, and desire to find the truth, and the desire to write down your thoughts... none of these are related to survival.

quote:Another example: People eat so much goddamn food that their heart can't take the fat and dies. But hey, they were only following their desire, human desire at that, to eat. Look where it got them. Hell, animals follow their desires. Ever seen a goldfish blow up because it didn't stop eating? Sometimes it is a good thing to think, "you know, maybe I am going to suppress this desire."

There is a difference between moderation and elimination. Following your desire doesn't get you in trouble; following it to excess does.

And no, I have never seen a goldfish blow up from overeating, and I do not think that is possible.

quote:It irks me when people argue just because they are afraid of admitting that they could be wrong.

The irony, it is blinding!

quote: Oh, and stop looking at religion so -goddamn- literally! You atheists think religion is so rigid. No, religion isn't. If the churches make it look that way, fuck em, they don't know what they're talking about. And neither do you.

What does this rabid torrent of nonscensical verbal diarrhea have to do with anything said in this thread? http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif) You said "religion". You did not specify how we were to look at it. Please explain to us the correct way to look at religion, and prove that it is indeed the correct way.

[This message has been edited by Twisted_Ferret (edited 10-01-2006).]

*cheers for truck and ferret*

Truck actually made me laugh a few times.

I'm not "Athiest" and I still think the person who wrote the "journal" entries is incredibly ignorant.

You make fanatics look bad. :-P

quote:Originally posted by Twisted_Ferret:



There is a difference between moderation and elimination. Following your desire doesn't get you in trouble; following it to excess does.





If I desire to murder someone, then following that desire can definately get me in trouble with the authorities. It would not be an "excess" which got me into trouble, but the desire itself. So desires can definately get us into trouble.

Anyway, I think people are ignoring that desires and needs require a context for meaning. When someone says that food and water are needed, they are giving the context of "survival" or "life" - directly or indirectly. However, given another context, other things can be desires and/or needs. Given the context of pleasure, then surely fucking 'missus Tingleheimer' can be seen as a need.

quote:Originally posted by ShouldTrip:

*cheers for truck and ferret*

http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

Rust, you are correct; however, that is not what I meant. True, desires can get you in trouble; what I meant, though, was that self-control can keep you from getting in that trouble. Such as murdering someone in an extremely careful manner, I suppose. http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif)

Self-control does not dictate the outcome of events. So while you're correct in saying that it may lower the chance of you getting into trouble, you still cannot say that exercising self-control will prevent someone from getting into trouble in all cases.

That is also true. But neither will desire always cause you to suffer - which, it seems to me, is what the anonymous author of Apocalypse Wanderer's latest post seems to believe.

Hmmm.

From these posts, it looks like the topic has changed to desire and its many faces. And, from the different arguments, it seems that desire is a far more complex point of argument.

Well, I haven't said much on the issue, and am still wondering if I should. Ah hell, why not?

It looks like desire has more than one face. It seems to me that the disposition of the desire might make the difference. Perhaps the desire to murder and have sex with dead people isn't so good, but the desire to make the world a better place or protect someone you love is completley necessary.

Desire is negotiable; it depends on the desire in question.

Am I wrong here?

I have a question. Can religion significantly boost the morale of an army, or does it deprive them of it? I kind of think that Atheisim(I hope I spelt that right) is an individual's...er, lack of belief, and wouldn't do so well when unity is required. But hey, feel free to prove me wrong.

Who's to say which desire is more right than any other?

You shouldn't kill people, right? Then what does someone say to their son over in Iraq right now?



And what does religion have to do with unity in war?

Being athiest seems like it'd make you MORE team orriented, aka survival orriented. Seeing as you're not just hoping God will be the one letting you dodge bullets.

I mean, someone who knows that what they do is because THEY have the power, and are in control of their own actions, seems like someone who would try harder, because they have to pick up the slack for the

"oh well god will help me" people http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/wink.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Apocalypse Wanderer:



Here is the point. Those who claim to be an Atheist are those who are dwelling in a false belief. And Atheist is so because he can afford to be an Atheist. He has lost the knowledge of death and is so wrapped up in safety that he knows nothing of fear or danger.

When the world takes a turn for the worse, Atheists will dwindle in number because they begin to find the nothing they embrace to hold no comfort. They will seek the religions with afterlife attached, or die, because knowing that nothing is watching over you leaves you feeling helpless and alone. When survival is necessary, these feelings will hinder the would-be survivor.

Religion keeps human beings going when all looks hopeless. It is a key benefactor to human survival. So, bullshit or no, it is necessary. An Atheist's goal is to eliminate religion. An Atheist is, basically, against human survival.



ø Is religion necessary to human morale and survival, regardless of truth? Does that mean an Atheist basically believes in stripping humans of the drive that will keep them going when all seems hopeless? I hear a lot about people in near-death situations who suddenly begin to ask god for help. Well, tell me. Your opinion counts.ø



Let me count the ways that is total bullshit. I am an Athiest and I am perfectly aware of death; that is one of the most rediculus statements I have ever heard. Comfort is what you make it I find peace in my life through love and dedication to what I love; not some farcical rituals.

Any atheists goal is to eliminate religon? No Actually I like having all you mindless sheeps follow what they have been told. It makes my life a whole lot easyer that everyone of you is smug in his whooly cotton mindset.

I'm interested as to how exactly me not beleiving in god makes me not want humans to survive...

your arguements are half assed and you dont give reasoning for anything all you do is claim things. as elfstone said Typical religious fear-mongering.

As an Atheist, I declare that the burden of proof is on you.

quote:Originally posted by Apocalypse Wanderer:

øI took this out of a journal I discovered at a companion's home. Now, she is well-versed in religion, mind you, so this might not be the dribble that I mistook it for. I would like some of you to take a look at it and judge it accordingly. And do so with mind, not with belief.ø

As a human being, I am constantly conflicting over religion. This, I suppose, is about as common as breathing. I do not know the secrets of the universe, and those who claim to know are those not to be listened to.

There was a time when those who gave up God's word were radical people. Others saw them as extreme and even foolish. The younger generation, however, fell in love with the atheist populace, and soon converted.

Or did they?

If you, and hopefully you do, communicate with other people around you, you will get quite alot of anti-god speeches from several lips. You will find many people saying how much bullshit religion is. You probably encounter an atheist at least once a week.

Here is the point. Those who claim to be an Atheist are those who are dwelling in a false belief. And Atheist is so because he can afford to be an Atheist. He has lost the knowledge of death and is so wrapped up in safety that he knows nothing of fear or danger.

When the world takes a turn for the worse, Atheists will dwindle in number because they begin to find the nothing they embrace to hold no comfort. They will seek the religions with afterlife attached, or die, because knowing that nothing is watching over you leaves you feeling helpless and alone. When survival is necessary, these feelings will hinder the would-be survivor.

Religion keeps human beings going when all looks hopeless. It is a key benefactor to human survival. So, bullshit or no, it is necessary. An Atheist's goal is to eliminate religion. An Atheist is, basically, against human survival.



ø Is religion necessary to human morale and survival, regardless of truth? Does that mean an Atheist basically believes in stripping humans of the drive that will keep them going when all seems hopeless? I hear a lot about people in near-death situations who suddenly begin to ask god for help. Well, tell me. Your opinion counts.ø



I think you're close minded and very ignorant...but you probably think you're very intelligent and insightful, and if people don't see your way on this post, you'll just assume that they don't get what you're talking about.

Religion is used as a crutch by the weak; and exploited by the strong to achieve certain goals or justify certain actions, which usually goes against the teachings of their religion.

Religion was created by early chiefs/kings/rulers to impose control over a populace by saying that certain actions will have negative consequences in not only this life, but the afterlife.

Hahahahaha!

I find it funny. That everybody feels the need to argue about such a thing as religion. I myself am a Christian. I will not change for anything, I will even die for God if the need arises. Yes you all might go that I am an arrogrant Christian just like the rest of them.. I dont care.

I stil see NO NEED WHAT SO EVER! to argue about a logically trivial thing as religion. If you are a Christian, good for you, if you are a Muslim, then good for you, if you are a Wiccan, then that's good for you. If you are a Lardist (made up religion) then good for you. I do not see why we should all resort to the 16th century way of doing things, and kill eachother for a different belief..

I'm sure a lot of you agree with me.

Have a good one, and may Jehovah, Buddha, Allah or whatever be with you lol

*Sigh* It's impressive to see a man feeding off his emotions.

I think you're close minded and very ignorant...but you probably think you're very intelligent and insightful, and if people don't see your way on this post, you'll just assume that they don't get what you're talking about.

-chickenpoop

Uh, okay. I'm just gonna assume you are talking about the author of this journal entry here...

So, why even put this here? Why do you bother to insult the person opposing your views? Are you not trying to sway them? Why attack them? I don't think attacking someone has much affect on swaying them.

An Chickenpoop: your post is rather repetitive. We know this; I think every atheist who has posted has had the urge to tell me how full of shit religion is. I know, dude, I know. Perhaps something more in depth next time? Maybe a reason why you think most religion is false, instead of regurgitated

generalities? I'm sorry to be so...well, harsh, but I need some solid arguments here.

Let me count the ways that is total bullshit. I am an Athiest and I am perfectly aware of death; that is one of the most rediculus statements I have ever heard. Comfort is what you make it I find peace in my life through love and dedication to what I love; not some farcical rituals.

Any atheists goal is to eliminate religon? No Actually I like having all you mindless sheeps follow what they have been told. It makes my life a whole lot easyer that everyone of you is smug in his whooly cotton mindset.

I'm interested as to how exactly me not beleiving in god makes me not want humans to survive...

your arguements are half assed and you dont give reasoning for anything all you do is claim things. as elfstone said Typical religious fear-mongering.

-Psychotic Myth

What, more rants? And it even says that there is no reasoning, nothing but generalities in the journal's argument! Okay...another useless post...thank you again for the worthless rant. I like how you place yourself on a pedestal in your post, Psychotic Myth, calling others "sheep" like not believing in god makes you somehow an elite form af a human being. Next!

As an Atheist, I declare that the burden of proof is on you.

-crimsonsmoke

Wow. How poetic. But useless to any form of discussion whatsoever. Next!

Hmmm. Okay Living Corpse, you have a peacfully casual way of looking at religion. That's good. However, stating that discussing religion is pointless is actually pointless to even post. Thanks anyways.

Hmm...well, I think that this thread is done. Even though Ididn't really agree with the journal entry to begin with, due to some resonable posts I -really- don't agree with it now. So all that seems to be left is the rants of fools from both sides. Thank you all for contributing, and I wish you all well.