Then you believe no one created you.

And if no one created you then your existence is random and meaningless.

Whats your point?

Edit: And how does there being a God make your life, anymore worthwhile?

[This message has been edited by Source (edited 09-30-2006).]

I believe the Terminator movies said it best, "There is no fate but what we make." Not being stupid enough to buy into Religion to give our lives meaning does not mean our lives are devoid of meaning.

Fuck off your ignorant religious cunt. Come back when you learn your shit.

our parents created us, dummy

life is for living. so do it.

What's wrong with a random and meaningless existence?

Just because you're terrified of the possibility that there is no god it doesn't mean other people are. I'm quite happy with the idea of god not existing. I can live my life how I want without wasting it by following ridiculous rituals or rules.



~Q~

god people that believe in god are stupid... i mean honestly. Why the fuck doesnt god come down and announce himself to the world? there are so many religions, how do you know if one is right or the other is wrong... if there was a god you would think that all the religions in the world would be the same because god would have come to everyone on the different sides of the world.... wouldn't you be pissed off if yu created a world and then people believed you didnt? i sure as hell would be

quote:Originally posted by w33d:

Then you believe no one created you.

And if no one created you then your existence is random and meaningless.

Your "logic" is moronic. It does not follow that if no one created you then your existence is random or meaningless. You have contributed nothing but stupidity in this thread.

Perhaps you're supposed to find your own meaning?

quote:Originally posted by w33d:

Then you believe no one created you.

And if no one created you then your existence is random and meaningless.

What about the mentally challenged? Are their lives miserable and meaningless, even though there is a God?

quote:Originally posted by Q:

What's wrong with a random and meaningless existence?

Just because you're terrified of the possibility that there is no god it doesn't mean other people are. I'm quite happy with the idea of god not existing. I can live my life how I want without wasting it by following ridiculous rituals or rules.



~Q~



Very well said. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) I second that.

I give my own meaning. I am the master of my fate; I am the captain of my soul.

quote:Originally posted by Source:

Whats your point?

Edit: And how does there being a God make your life, anymore worthwhile?



God created us because he wanted us to be with him. He gave us free will, lest we be just simple automatons, so we must choose to be with him.

quote:Originally posted by Surak:

I believe the Terminator movies said it best, "There is no fate but what we make." Not being stupid enough to buy into Religion to give our lives meaning does not mean our lives are devoid of meaning.

Fuck off your ignorant religious cunt. Come back when you learn your shit.

For what reason do you exist?

quote:Originally posted by Q:

What's wrong with a random and meaningless existence?

Just because you're terrified of the possibility that there is no god it doesn't mean other people are. I'm quite happy with the idea of god not existing. I can live my life how I want without wasting it by following ridiculous rituals or rules.



~Q~

Who said anything about rituals? A random existence imparts no purpose to the existee, anything becomes justifiable, and with no baseline to hold yourself to it is easy to stray from a good path.

quote:Originally posted by Real.PUA:

Your "logic" is moronic. It does not follow that if no one created you then your existence is random or meaningless. You have contributed nothing but stupidity in this thread.

quote:Originally posted by Merlinman2005:

our parents created us, dummy

life is for living. so do it.



Who created them?

How can a human just be made to function itself

The world is something very carefully planned

whats on it, who is created, the times everything, How can anyone say its just Self existent......... Can a whole day event go smoothly without it being planned and controlled by some one? no

quote:Originally posted by ate:



Who created them?

Are you expecting an answer or something? idiot.

quote:Originally posted by ate:



Who created them?

Their parents...

quote:Fuck off your ignorant religious cunt. Come back when you learn your shit

made me laugh

My life means more than the universe to me, and I wasn't created by a magical man in teh sky.

I feel sad for people who need a god, a supernatural father figure, in order for their life to have some value for them.

quote:Originally posted by w33d:

Then you believe no one created you.

And if no one created you then your existence is random and meaningless.

Thats just like saying, " If you are an atheist, then you believe in nothing".which is just an assumption on your part.

My parents created me, and the meaning of my life is to live a good, fulfilling, and fun one.

quote:Originally posted by Aseren:

Are you expecting an answer or something? idiot.

I got an answer. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) Are you expecting me to reply to your taunt? I sure hope not... http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)



quote:Originally posted by Source:

Their parents...

So what living being created the first living being?

^^^^The first entity on Earth that figured out how to reproduce itself?

And considering all the other incredibly unlikely things that happened to form life I don't think that it's really too far out of an idea that something might have just happened to come together and create life.

I, however, think there is something out there. To me it kind of seems a little more logical to think there was something out there that helped tip the scales during the creation of the universe, it may not be a God or even a living entity (by living I mean it was in control of its actions, and could reason) but considering how things COULD have been if we had left it up to entropy I think we're doing pretty god damn well and should be happy to.

and to the OP:

I know you might've not intended it, but you sound very narrow-minded, if you would've even considered other religions existed then you'd realize that most religions have pretty contrasting viewpoints. (Hint: Not all of them believe we were created by the Christian God, but they do have their ideas on Creation).

Edit:

I think JRRT said it best actually

"Not all who wander are lost."

[This message has been edited by One Kill Wonder (edited 10-01-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by w33d:

God created us because he wanted us to be with him. He gave us free will, lest we be just simple automatons, so we must choose to be with him.

quote:Originally posted by ate:

So what living being created the first living being?

The same thing could be said about God.

I feel sorry for all you religious people out there. It is mearly human nature that we must have some form of "God" to believe in. We as humans have always needed to have something to blame when shit goes wrong and to keep us going during those times. What people don't see is that when shit happens and we pray, nothing happens!! So why not give up on this stupid ideal "he loves us no matter what" and find someone to help you with your problems instead of using a stupid imaginary friend? I'm very sorry that ya'll do that.

quote:Originally posted by w33d:

Then you believe no one created you.

And if no one created you then your existence is random and meaningless.

I think a persons life is meaningless if they do things they have to force themselves to believe are right. i mean come on, almosteverything every single religious person does is based on some old book and the possible reaction of an invisble man living in the clouds.

If you don't believe that the universe has a personality, well then you must think.

quote:Originally posted by germangirl:

Deutschland über alles, meine Freunde!

What is God? Do He have to be defined by we who cannot comprehend his form? What's important is that He is the baseline, the center, the foundation you base your life on. I have seen many people turn away from God, citing unintelligible intellectual reasons like I see here. In reality it is just a part of the self-justifying, self-serving "morality" trap that many people fall into. Cheating on schoolwork, fucking passed out girls, irresponsible sex, binge drinking, drug addiction, petty vandalism, gambling, lying, stealing. All of these activities are common and accepted among America's secular youth.

quote:Originally posted by w33d:

citing unintelligible intellectual reasons like I see here.

I'm not even going to touch the rest of that filthy mass of misunderstanding and ignorance, but I'd like to say this about the quoted piece: such reasons are only unintelligible to those too stupid to understand them. http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif)

quote:Originally posted by ate:

So what living being created the first living being?

Don't be stupid.

Life was acheived, and came about because of no living being.

quote:Originally posted by w33d:

What is God? Do He have to be defined by we who cannot comprehend his form? What's important is that He is the baseline, the center, the foundation you base your life on. I have seen many people turn away from God, citing unintelligible intellectual reasons like I see here. In reality it is just a part of the self-justifying, self-serving "morality" trap that many people fall into. Cheating on schoolwork, fucking passed out girls, irresponsible sex, binge drinking, drug addiction, petty vandalism, gambling, lying, stealing. All of these activities are common and accepted among America's secular youth.

Is there more crime (per capita) in the more secular areas of the US than in the more religious areas? Is there more crime in the secular countries of europe than in the overall very religious country of the US? Gregory Pauls study showed the exact opposite. There is a positive correlation between religion and crime, not between secularism and crime.

You failed logic, explain how it follows that a lack of a supreme entity will entail a "random and meaningless" existence?

quote:Originally posted by w33d:

Then you believe no one created you.

And if no one created you then your existence is random and meaningless.

So a meaningful existence is reliant upon belief in a creator?

If this creator does exist, wouldn't everyone's lives be meaningful (non-meaningless, non-random), regardless of whether or not they believed in said creator?

Jx

If any one is interested, here's a link to the study Real.PUA refers to:

http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html

One particularly important statement in the study:

"Although they are by no means utopias, the populations of secular democracies are clearly able to govern themselves and maintain societal cohesion. Indeed, the data examined in this study demonstrates that only the more secular, pro-evolution democracies have, for the first time in history, come closest to achieving practical “cultures of life” that feature low rates of lethal crime, juvenile-adult mortality, sex related dysfunction, and even abortion. The least theistic secular developed democracies such as Japan, France, and Scandinavia have been most successful in these regards. The non-religious, pro-evolution democracies contradict the dictum that a society cannot enjoy good conditions unless most citizens ardently believe in a moral creator. The widely held fear that a Godless citizenry must experience societal disaster is therefore refuted. Contradicting these conclusions requires demonstrating a positive link between theism and societal conditions in the first world with a similarly large body of data - a doubtful possibility in view of the observable trends."

There are other figures that tend to support these results. For example, the per capita number of theist convicted criminals compared to non-theists.

If we are to conclude anything, it would be that all of these activities w33d names are common and accepted among America's non-secular youth; the opposite of what he's claiming.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 10-02-2006).]

Religion gets raped again.

quote:Originally posted by Merlinman2005:

Don't be stupid.

Life was acheived, and came about because of no living being.





quote:Originally posted by One Kill Wonder:

^^^^The first entity on Earth that figured out how to reproduce itself?

And considering all the other incredibly unlikely things that happened to form life I don't think that it's really too far out of an idea that something might have just happened to come together and create life.



So where did DNA come from?

quote:Originally posted by Source:

The same thing could be said about God.



Yes but god's not an animal.

quote:Originally posted by Source:

Whats your point?

Edit: And how does there being a God make your life, anymore worthwhile?



Exactly. And even if life is essentially meaningless it doesn't make you any less alive. Moreover, your life doesn't have meaning just because you're alive, you give your life meaning through the things that you do.

Cheers,

Lost

quote:Originally posted by w33d:

Then you believe no one created you.

And if no one created you then your existence is random and meaningless.

Because it is. Have fun lying to yourself.

Life can't be meaningless and random even if you try to make it that way.

quote:Originally posted by Real.PUA:

Is there more crime (per capita) in the more secular areas of the US than in the more religious areas? Is there more crime in the secular countries of europe than in the overall very religious country of the US? Gregory Pauls study showed the exact opposite. There is a positive correlation between religion and crime, not between secularism and crime.

Your study fails. All it did was take surveys. It doesn't say anything about any of the individual people who lived in the areas or committed the crimes.

You insinuate the survey means that religion causes crime. But what about this:

Low income ares are also associated with crime and religion is associated with low income areas.

All the activity I listed would be near zero if people had a baseline like God in their life. Just because those people said they are religious in a survey doesn't really say anything about how they live their lives which is really the point of all this.

quote:If we are to conclude anything, it would be that all of these activities w33d names are common and accepted among America's non-secular youth; the opposite of what he's claiming.

This is even worse because these are just kids who's parents told them they were religious. When I say secular I mean secular in practice.

quote:Originally posted by Jessic:

So a meaningful existence is reliant upon belief in a creator?

If this creator does exist, wouldn't everyone's lives be meaningful (non-meaningless, non-random), regardless of whether or not they believed in said creator?

Jx



If no one created you, if your body is just an empty vessel, then nothing you do will matter in the end, because you will just end.

If there isn't a God then anyone anything does is ultimately meaningless and will amount to nothing. Maybe you can't truly grasp that concept, or you are just to scared to really try, but its quite a chilling thought.

If you people are too hung up on being such hostile cunts to religons, try to conceptualize God not as a being but as the concept "the right thing to do" in general.

I think most of you are just being close-minded and stubborn about religion which is common in this generation since protestant america has given us this horrible reagan/bush stick in the ass view of God.

"If there isn't a God then anyone anything does is ultimately meaningless and will amount to nothing. "

Dude. NO.

That was just stupid.

Just because there's no Almighty Judge doesn't mean what we do has no effect. Actions live on, even when we don't. Derr.

How about this... if there is a God, what you do will still amount to nothing, because you do it for Him, and not for humanity.

quote:Originally posted by w33d:

Your study fails. All it did was take surveys. It doesn't say anything about any of the individual people who lived in the areas or committed the crimes.

You insinuate the survey means that religion causes crime. But what about this:

Low income ares are also associated with crime and religion is associated with low income areas.

All the activity I listed would be near zero if people had a baseline like God in their life. Just because those people said they are religious in a survey doesn't really say anything about how they live their lives which is really the point of all this.

I said correlation not causation. But the correlation directly refutes your position. 'Nuff said.

[This message has been edited by Real.PUA (edited 10-03-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by w33d:

Low income ares are also associated with crime and religion is associated with low income areas.

The secular states singled out (Japan [$31,500], France [$29,900] , and the Scandinavian countries ) have less GDP per capita that many other of the religious states mentioned (for example the United States [$41,800] and Great Britain), so this fails to support your case:

Either there is less wealth disparity in secular countries (so as to account for a lower "low-income" population and therefore less crime according to you) which means there is a more equal allocation of wealth, or simply these secular countries are not having the same amount of crime with the same or higher amount of disparity. Either one is a point in favor of secular countries, not the other way around.

quote:

All the activity I listed would be near zero if people had a baseline like God in their life. Just because those people said they are religious in a survey doesn't really say anything about how they live their lives which is really the point of all this.

Just because you say that "if people had a baseline like God in their life the activities listed would be near zero" doesn't make it so either. It also doesn't make it so that secular youth would be more prone to those activities just because you say so. Apparently, even you yourself know that you have absolutely no point.

Now please, do every one a favor and either provide something to substantiate your shitty claims or admit that you cannot. This regular dose of stupidity you keep giving us isn't helping your case.

quote:

This is even worse because these are just kids who's parents told them they were religious. When I say secular I mean secular in practice.

I know what you mean. That is still contradicted by the data.

You have made a baseless, unsubstantiated and frankly astonishingly idiotic claim, and this study, as well as pretty much all the data, contradicts what you've said. I suppose that's why it remains baseless and unsubstantiated: because you have absolutely nothing to support what you've said.

If what you said was true, we would see a large amount of crime associated with the most secular states and that's not what we see at all.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 10-03-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by w33d:



If no one created you, if your body is just an empty vessel, then nothing you do will matter in the end, because you will just end.

My eventual end has no bearing on my life now, nor does it prevent me from having an enjoyable and meaningful life. I don't understand how you came up with all of this.

So if there was a God, but he just lets us die just as if there wasn't, there wouldn't be any point to life? What if we had eternal life through technology - still no point? I think you are, in essence, saying that eternal life is what gives meaning. This is not logical, though, because eternal life is no different than life now - there'd just be more of it. If what we do now is meaningless, then it'd be just as meaningless if it were repeated in perpetuity.

quote:If you people are too hung up on being such hostile cunts to religons, try to conceptualize God not as a being but as the concept "the right thing to do" in general.

"The right thing to do" is "the right thing to do." You can misuse the English language however you want; however, I prefer to go by the actual definition of "god". I don't "conceptualize" God as a being because I'm a hostile cunt, but because a.) that's what the word means, and b.) that's what the vast majority of people use it as.

quote:Originally posted by Real.PUA:

I said correlation not causation. But the correlation directly refutes your position. 'Nuff said.





No. It doesn't. Just because people say in a survey they've accepted God doesn't mean they really have. You cannot determine piety by a survey.

quote:Originally posted by w33d:

Cheating on schoolwork, fucking passed out girls, irresponsible sex, binge drinking, drug addiction, petty vandalism, gambling, lying, stealing. All of these activities are common and accepted among America's secular youth.

Jeez, you're so blind, so uneducated, so inexpirienced.

I don't believe in god, I never have, And I'm one hell of a good freaking person. I don't cheat, on anything, I don't steal. I've never even cheated on someone I've dated. I strongly try to avoid lieing, but that's human nature. I by no means take part in irresponsible sex. I don't binge drink, or do drugs, or take advantage of people for that matter.

So, well according to your logic, I might just be PRETENDING to not believe in god, because I MUST if I'm a good person. I just lied on the survey of life.

Or maybe I'm some statistical extreme? And other non believers are the exact opposite?

Then again, I'm supposed to be a liar, I could be making this all up as I grasp at straws in another poor attempt for a responce.

Oh wait no... Real.PHU AND Rust proved you wrong on that one.

You obviously know tons and tons of non believers who are horrible people.

Well guess what! I know tons and tons of bible hugging freaks who are the ones taking advantage of girls, stealing, lieing, cheating. etc.

Why? Because at the end of the day they can cry and pray to god that they're sorry, and it'll all be better.

Where as the stronger party, I mean non believers, know they are in control of their own actions, and their own fate, so accept more responsibility for what they do.



And w33d

quote:Originally posted by w33d:

drug addiction

Honestly now, you come here pretending to know what it's all about, you're just so much better than those non believers.

Who's the one being confrontational and ignorant?



Sometimes I wonder if I'm on the same par with most overly religious people. They pity non believers. I pity strong believers, not all of them though, because some really are weak to the point where they need this meaning and structure in their lives.

quote:Originally posted by w33d:



No. It doesn't. Just because people say in a survey they've accepted God doesn't mean they really have. You cannot determine piety by a survey.

1. So are we to assume they are lying? What is more reasonable, to assume that these people are able to determine how pious they themselves are, or that you are able to determine that for them?

2. This is a convenient way for you to escape reality at will. You can conveniently define and re-define "pious" or "religious" to fit your needs. If a pious man kills or steals, then you'll say that he's not pious. You'll move the goal post whenever your claims are refuted.

3. You ignore the other data dealing with secular countries. If what you say is true, we would expect to see secular individuals to commit those crimes in a higher amount. That's not what we see at all.

quote:"Cheating on schoolwork, fucking passed out girls, irresponsible sex, binge drinking, drug addiction, petty vandalism, gambling, lying, stealing. All of these activities are common and accepted among America's secular youth."

Guess what asshole, these are all things participated in by religious youth too. Hell, religious people period do these things. Religion does not make a person better than a non-believer. In many cases, it makes them an irrational, stupid fuck like you.

w33d:

I fail to see how the lack of a deity implies that we are all nothing more than 'empty vessels'.

There is so much that we do not understand about this Universe that it's difficult to imagine. Hell, there are still so many mysteries about our own selves that we have yet to discover.

In truth, no one knows exactly what happens when we die. We can observe dead beings and assume that there is an absolute loss of the individual. This is the simplest conclusion. However, we have obviously been wrong in the past. There may be something more in the end; something that we are unable to detect. This in no way necessitates the existence of a God.

That's the problem with you theists: You assume that it's all or nothing. In reality, if God does not exist (which is a likely possibility), we still do. This entire Universe still exists. If this Universe can exist without a deity, then who is to say that there can be no other forms of existence on any other possible planes of existence? That's the beauty of atheism: Without a divine creator, there are no true limitations.

On meaning:

Well honestly, who cares? Whether reason or purpose have anything to do with our existence is really irrelevant. We exist. That's how it is.

Then again, maybe I'm wrong about everything. That's fine, too. I'm just another rambling idiot anyway.

quote:Originally posted by w33d:

And if no one created you then your existence is random and meaningless.

Really? Cool!

quote:Originally posted by w33d:

Then you believe no one created you.

And if no one created you then your existence is random and meaningless.

DUMBEST FUCKING THING I'VE HEARD SOMEONE SAY IN A WHILE.

quote:Originally posted by w33d:

Cheating on schoolwork, fucking passed out girls, irresponsible sex, binge drinking, drug addiction, petty vandalism, gambling, lying, stealing. All of these activities are common and accepted among America's secular youth.

That's regardless of religious position. I know people who indulge in this crap Saturday night and walk into church the next morning acting like their shit don't stink.

quote:Originally posted by w33d:

Then you believe no one created you.

And if no one created you then your existence is random and meaningless.

Life is fun and fulling. Plenty meaning for me.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

1. So are we to assume they are lying? What is more reasonable, to assume that these people are able to determine how pious they themselves are, or that you are able to determine that for them?



I just say that if people actually lived by the principle of loving others as God loves you (complete self-sacrificing love) then the results would be pretty much utopian civilization.

But our civilization is pretty corrupt, so that says a lot about the people who make it up.

quote:Originally posted by ShouldTrip:

Blah blah blah I'm a good person and an athiest is the point I want to quote here blah blah blah.

So what is it that compels you to always be honest when I know you see others around you cheating and lying etc. so much?

Bottom line: A lot of Christians are hypocrites, a lot of us aren't. A lot of athiests are bull shit artists (used swearing to get point across), a lot of you arent. A lot of people have money, a lot don't. If you have purpose in your life, then that's great.. If you don't that sucks.

Christians that are hypoctites are as bad as a non Christian.

If you dont like Christianity and you full on bash us for what "we" did back in the 16th century.. Then you are as bad as "them".. Simple.. Everybody should love and mosh and headbang with eachother in harmony without having this religious crap hampering us.. Yes I am a Christian, I am sick and bloody tired of people saying "my religion is better than yours, so screw you". Get off it lololol.

Cyas

All the whores and drug dealers

and plain dumb assholes I know,

are christians.

You don't know me, and I am a Christian.. does that instantly make me a dumbass? I agree with you to a degree.. There are a lot of things that I could go for hours on about the hypocrisy of Christians.. but remember this! The Christians are the hypocrits but not the Christ..

Ghandi summed it up very well "I like your Christ, but I don't like your Christians, your Christians are so unlike your Christ".

I agree with that a lot.. I could go on for ages about the hypocrisy of Christians, and in particular pastors kids. There is one incident where athiests bag Christian priests being perverted and whatnot, I see ads about it on this site.. And never actually been involved in those sorts of incidences.. Yes I'm talking about sexual molestation..

You all bag Christians about being sexually perverted, and NEVER been in that sort of situation. A lot of you probably haven't. Well I personally have, and I am still a Christian today. I showed a little thing called forgiveness and lack of bitterness to the person who had no right to do such a thing to me.. Isn't that worth a mention as a good part of Christianity? You all spend your life blindly bagging Christianity with no real idea (a lot dont have a clue).

Isn't what I just said both proof that Christianity is both not as bad as you all claim to be, and it's us Christians that are the hypocrites and not the Christ.

quote:Originally posted by w33d:

God created us because he wanted us to be with him. He gave us free will, lest we be just simple automatons, so we must choose to be with him.

Lol, this is win. Way to contradict yourself, w33d.



[This message has been edited by Shizm (edited 10-07-2006).]

Some good trolling there, w33d. I'm surprised no one has called you out on that, yet.

quote:Originally posted by w33d:

Then you believe no one created you.

And if no one created you then your existence is random and meaningless.

Well son... Once in a man's lifetime, he gets an incredible urge to... uhmmm... *ahem*... "procreate" with another being, usually a human female, but not exclusively so (other males, animals, one-self, or sometimes inanimate objects).

Maybe you will learn this one day, but alas, life lessons take time, an age above 11, and sometimes an acute ability, very very very small actually, but still, some kind of ability to think.

P.S. C Darwin is God.

quote:Originally posted by Shizm:

Lol, this is win. Way to contradict yourself, w33d.





God created us because he wanted us to be with him. He gave us free will, lest we be just simple automatons, so we must choose to be with him.

Not a contradiction. We have free will, so we have to choose to be with God. As opposed to us being automatons that he forced to be with him.

quote:Originally posted by w33d:

Then you believe no one created you.

And if no one created you then your existence is random and meaningless.

It's sad that most people are unable to see the inherent beauty of the random and meaningless. Life doesn't require meaning. Does a raindrop have a meaning? Or a blade of grass? Why should I have one? I don't need god to feel special. I know that me merely being a living biological organism, possibly one of the rarest items in the universe, makes me special. Look up a Pale Blue Dot for further understanding.

Sentimentalism aside though, beyond causality there is no need for meaning or purpose. If it's good enough for the rest of the universe it's good enough for me.

Ok. I wanted to know and I think I found out. It seems like most of you don't believe in God because you are unwilling to admit you are insignificant or unable to cope with the universe on your own. Its pride.

quote:Originally posted by w33d:

I just say that if people actually lived by the principle of loving others as God loves you (complete self-sacrificing love) then the results would be pretty much utopian civilization.

But our civilization is pretty corrupt, so that says a lot about the people who make it up.



That may be what you're saying now, after your ridiculous statements have been utterly decimated, but that's not what you were saying at first.

More importantly, however, you've yet to prove that "self-sacrificing love" is something strictly special in theistic belief and only theistic belief. Unless you can prove so, then to make the distinction between theists and atheists, or non-secular and secular would be dishonest.

P.S. I agree with your last statement. The majority of people that make up society are non-secular, which does speak volumes about them...

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 10-08-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by w33d:

Ok. I wanted to know and I think I found out. It seems like most of you don't believe in God because you are unwilling to admit you are insignificant or unable to cope with the universe on your own. Its pride.

If anyone is unable of coping with that it would be those who actually believe they are special enough that a god would decide to waste time to create them and/or in mundane aspects of their lives.

If anything characterizes most atheists is that they can accept the fact that they are tiny insignificant specs in the context of the staggering size and scope of the universe, and do not need a "god" to give some extra "meaning" to their lives.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 10-08-2006).]

Totally agree with you Rust.

I'm actually Agnostic (don't believe in God or an afterlife at all but can't prove His nonexistance so therefore accept that it's a possibility) and pride does not come into it at all.

The fact is because a lot of people can look at a world outside of religion, suddenly the universe becomes even bigger and we become even smaller. As far as we know, our beliefs in religion are entirely limited to this earth, this celestial body. Now whilst religion (at least Christianity) cannot and does not stretch past the boundaries of earth (asides from The Beginning), science does and many scientists are also Agnostic.

Even Stephen Hawking has said that there are some things that cannot be explained at the moment by science so perhaps there is another body or 'a maker'.

Now to me, having an incredibly scientific mind, but also opening yourself to the theory that there is a remote possibility a God exists, is far more self depreciating and belittling than somebody who INSISTS that their belief, their god, and their way of thinking is correct.

Anyone agree?

Well I subscribe to Huxley's (the man who coined the term "agnostic") definition ("That it is wrong for a man to say he is certain of the objective truth of a proposition unless he can provide evidence which logically justifies that certainty. This is what agnosticism asserts and in my opinion, is all that is essential to agnosticism"). I'm agnostic in that I admit that the knowledge (i.e. fact) of the existence or non-existence of a creator cannot be obtained, at least for now. However, I am also an atheist in that I lack a belief in gods.

Anyways, yes, it seems ridiculous to claim that an atheist would have more pride than a theist. It is the theist who believes we're not mere animals, but actually special beings created/designed by god... it is the theist who believes that his or her morality is (conveniently) aligned with that of god's.

quote:Originally posted by w33d:

Ok. I wanted to know and I think I found out. It seems like most of you don't believe in God because you are unwilling to admit you are insignificant or unable to cope with the universe on your own. Its pride.

Now your just blatantly trolling.

w33d: We are both atheists, I just reject one more god then you do. When you realize why you reject all the others, you'll know why I reject yours.

People who talk about God in public should be treated as if they were talking about Posiden.

quote:Originally posted by w33d:

So what is it that compels you to always be honest when I know you see others around you cheating and lying etc. so much?

because I WANT to treat others well. Because I want to be a respectable person and a good example. Because I value those around me. Because I believe the whole "treat others how you want to be treated".

I believe in respecting humanity, because it is what it is. And respecting people because they are who they are.

If you need someone to tell you to be nice, you're a shitty person.

"Not a contradiction. We have free will, so we have to choose to be with God. As opposed to us being automatons that he forced to be with him." yes it IS a contridiction.

"Can" is will. "Have" is force.

If you HAVE to do something, it is required and neccisary. If you CAN do something, you are given the option.

Let's bring psychology into this

Ok. I wanted to know and I think I found out. It seems like most of you don't believe in God because you are unwilling to admit you are insignificant or unable to cope with the universe on your own. Its pride.

What he's doing here, is called projecting. it's a defence mechanism. It's where you take your own feelings and thoughts, and push them onto someone else.

Religious people think they are special, and god wants them, as rust said.

Athiests realise that there is no big guy looking out for us, and we are just tiny specs in the universe, as rust said.

You really are, as someone else pointed out. A terrible troll.

You pick and choose which arguements to respond to, even though they're all relevant.

You have been beaten. You're a sad person I have very little, if no, respect for.

Your ignorance astonishes me.

For fuck's sake. We ALL believe in god, we just call it different things. Some call it the balance, some the universal spirit, some Allah, some quantum mechanics, somewhatever...does it fucking matter what it's called? Go out and live your life and quit arguing over the fucking label you twits give something and what its attributes might be. You aren't going to know until you die.

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

For fuck's sake. We ALL believe in god, we just call it different things. Some call it the balance, some the universal spirit, some Allah, some quantum mechanics, somewhatever...does it fucking matter what it's called?

Yes it does matter cause a person's "God-View" determines their "Life-View" and that effects one's emotions and the processes used in everyday life.

Example: w33d has posited pride as the controlling principle of some posters. A person at the consciousness level of "Pride" has an indifference to "God". Their "God-View" generally shows as indifference in one way or another, either God does not exist or God cannot be proven or in some way God is a remote or non-personal force. The level of "Pride" is typified by a "Demanding" "Life-View", the "Emotion" experienced is "Scorn" and the "Process" used is one of "Inflation". How often is scorn encountered on TOTSE? How often do things get blown out of proportion?

Point is it does "fucking matter"! http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)



(Quotes in "" Source: Power vs Force, David R.Hawkins}

Peace http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

What about the view that we all call god a different name but we all know that it exists in one form or another and need to just move on with life and wait 'til we die to find out? Really man, life isn't supposed to be some hellacious event where you are concerned about whether or not your view of the eternal is in line with someone else.

We all know it exists...we're united under that. And pride is thinking only you know the true eternal - whether you think it's God, Allah, inexistence, whatever. Nobody alive KNOWS the eternal. Until you accept that you don't know shit, you're always going to have a void inside that's trying to tell you that you don't know shit.

Someone's god-view doesn't mean shit, someone's beliefs don't mean shit. We all know there's something beyond our comprehension...it's the reason the question 'why' cannot be answered in full. Debating just what that something is doesn't do shit but cause divisions between humanity.

Theism and atheism are the pot and the kettle. We are awakened when we quit caring WHAT the eternal is and just accept it and then go about living life. While you're stuck on whether or not it's a god, a spirit, a process, a grave, or whatever...you're not going to grow or learn because you think YOU know.

Edit: And btw, the only HONEST god-view is 'I don't know' Even after all the thoughts of miracles or curses, or the lack of evidence, etc...we still don't know.

[This message has been edited by Hexadecimal (edited 10-10-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

For fuck's sake. We ALL believe in god, we just call it different things. Some call it the balance, some the universal spirit, some Allah, some quantum mechanics, somewhatever...does it fucking matter what it's called? Go out and live your life and quit arguing over the fucking label you twits give something and what its attributes might be. You aren't going to know until you die.



No, we do not ALL believe in god. It's called ATHIESM! Welcome to the thread! Please read before posting!

Don't mind him, he's just spewing the usual bullshit which flows from the mouths of those who have (conveniently enough for them) "found out the truth".

Once he finds out nobody is buying into the bullshit, he'll stop.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Don't mind him, he's just spewing the usual bullshit which flows from the mouths of those who have (conveniently enough for them) "found out the truth".

Once he finds out nobody is buying into the bullshit, he'll stop.

I doubt hex would stop, we've destroyed every one of w33d's arguements, countless times, and he still continues :-P

They're blinded, only see what they want to see. hear what they want to hear.

I believe the term is denial.

quote:Originally posted by ShouldTrip:



No, we do not ALL believe in god. It's called ATHIESM! Welcome to the thread! Please read before posting!

Yes, you do. You just don't call it god.

What is it that is permanent?

Change? Unchanging? Death? The cycle? Life? There is something you believe to be permanent and you may not even be aware of it.

Tell me, is there anything you believe to be permanent?

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

Don't mind him, he's just spewing the usual bullshit which flows from the mouths of those who have (conveniently enough for them) "found out the truth".

Once he finds out nobody is buying into the bullshit, he'll stop.

Rust, you're the worst of it all. You think your intellectualism and logic is a boon, and that is the source of your pride. Even you know something is permanent; what you call it does not matter. The struggle to understand eternity is a struggle everyone undergoes; something worthy of respect and admiration. You deem me inferior because I call it god and you don't, yet we both believe that there is something eternal.

1. I didn't call you inferior. I said you were spewing bullshit, which you definitely were; just like you were spewing bullshit before you left totse on your hiatus a while back. "The universe is a brain" ring a bell?

2. I don't boast about my intellect or my logic skills, (whatever those may be) nor did I exhibit any pride in what I said. For all of this "enlightened" mumbo-jumbo you sure as fuck don't see anything wrong with making ridiculous claims and then not backing them up.

3. I don't believe there is anything eternal, at least not necessarily so (aside of course, from mathematical concepts we've conjured).

The fact is, that you're babbling on and on without saying anything at all. Using words like "eternal" and "truth" sporadically throughout your post doesn't make it any less unsubstantiated bullshit.

1. I didn't call you inferior. I said you were spewing bullshit, which you definitely were; just like you were spewing bullshit before you left totse on your hiatus a while back. "The universe is a brain" ring a bell?

You treat me as a bullshitter rather than an equal. Actions are produced by emotions, which are produced by thoughts, which are produced by you. You were proud, you thought I was full of shit, you felt you must let someone know your 'truth', and you did. Thing is, you still don't know a damned thing, and neither do I.

Edit: I said what I did then because I thought I knew. Turns out I didn't know shit...I was making a baseless assumption from a large chunk of information and a heavy, heavy, hallucinogenic trip.

2. I don't boast about my intellect or my logic skills, (whatever those may be) nor did I exhibit any pride in what I said. For all of this "enlightened" mumbo-jumbo you sure as fuck don't see anything wrong with making ridiculous claims and then not backing them up.

You treat yourself as an intellectual and a logical thinker, which you are, but you treat those who have faith alongside those as unintelligent and illogical (calling my thoughts and feelings 'bullshit' shows a disregard to my own information stores and emotional processes...you pay attention to yours, no?), thus you do have pride - an imagined inequity.

3. I don't believe there is anything eternal, at least not necessarily so (aside of course, from mathematical concepts we've conjured).

If 'nothing' is eternal, then isn't change eternal?

If nothing is not eternal, and change is not necessarily eternal, then wouldn't chaos be eternal?

If nothing is eternal, and change isn't eternal, and chaos isn't necessarily eternal, wouldn't balance be eternal?

If nothing is eternal, and change isn't, and chaos isn't, and balance isn't, then isn't the cycle?

If nothing is eternal, and change isn't, and chaos isn't, and balance isn't, and the cycle isn't...if all things come to an end, then isn't the past eternal? And if the past is not eternal, then is time? And if not time, then space? If not space, then limits? If not limits, then not eternity? If not eternity, then nothing? If nothing, then not change? Etc.



The fact is, that you're babbling on and on without saying anything at all. Using words like "eternal" and "truth" sporadically throughout your post doesn't make it any less unsubstantiated bullshit.

I'm saying something - but words cannot express.

[This message has been edited by Hexadecimal (edited 10-11-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:



You treat me as a bullshitter rather than an equal. Actions are produced by emotions, which are produced by thoughts, which are produced by you. You were proud, you thought I was full of shit, you felt you must let someone know your 'truth', and you did. Thing is, you still don't know a damned thing, and neither do I.

Edit: I said what I did then because I thought I knew. Turns out I didn't know shit...I was making a baseless assumption from a large chunk of information and a heavy, heavy, hallucinogenic trip.

Well, if I'm not a bullshitter, then that would certainly mean that I'm not treating you as an equal. You are correct. Not being equal, however, doesn't mean you are inferior...

As for me being "proud", since you have absolutely no way of knowing the reasons for me saying what I did or the state of mind I was in when I said what I did, and since you've proven that you have a penchant for uttering unsubstantiated bullshit, then excuse me as I ignore yet another of your silly statements.

quote:

You treat yourself as an intellectual and a logical thinker, which you are, but you treat those who have faith alongside those as unintelligent and illogical (calling my thoughts and feelings 'bullshit' shows a disregard to my own information stores and emotional processes...you pay attention to yours, no?), thus you do have pride - an imagined inequity.

Where the fuck have I "treated" myself as anything? I make strides not to "treat" myself as anything, which explains why you cannot find a single post of mine where I mention myself as an "intellectual" or a "logical thinker". Those are not labels I'm going to bestow upon myself because my intellect is for others to decide, not me.

quote:

If 'nothing' is eternal, then isn't change eternal?

If nothing is not eternal, and change is not necessarily eternal, then wouldn't chaos be eternal?

If nothing is eternal, and change isn't eternal, and chaos isn't necessarily eternal, wouldn't balance be eternal?

If nothing is eternal, and change isn't, and chaos isn't, and balance isn't, then isn't the cycle?

If nothing is eternal, and change isn't, and chaos isn't, and balance isn't, and the cycle isn't...if all things come to an end, then isn't the past eternal? And if the past is not eternal, then is time? And if not time, then space? If not space, then limits? If not limits, then not eternity? If not eternity, then nothing? If nothing, then not change? Etc.

Non-sequitur rhetorical questions aren't going to prove your point.

Most importantly, even if we consider that something is eternal (lets say any of the things you mention there - for the sake of argument) it would then be up to you to show how it would be valid to compare it to a "god".

The existence of something which is eternal (which I'm assuming for the sake of argument) does not make it a "god"; especially not when we consider the other outrageous claims you've made to accompany that one.

quote:

I'm saying something - but words cannot express.

It's called "bullshit".

P.S. May I suggest you don't say that I'm treating you as inferior in the very same thread where you:

a. Call me "the worst of it all"...

b. Imply that I am ignorant of the "Truth" while it is you who (conveniently) know the "Truth"...

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 10-11-2006).]

It's a joy to read your posts, Rust. You never fail to kick ass.

Well, if I'm not a bullshitter, then that would certainly mean that I'm not treating you as an equal. You are correct. Not being equal, however, doesn't mean you are inferior...

Inequity makes me either inferior or superior; which is it? Or is inequity imagined and are you admitting equality between the two of us despite different interpretations of life, its beginnings, and its ends? I'd say we're equals that interpret the same ignorance differently.

As for me being "proud", since you have absolutely no way of knowing the reasons for me saying what I did or the state of mind I was in when I said what I did, and since you've proven that you have a penchant for uttering unsubstantiated bullshit, then excuse me as I ignore yet another of your silly statements.

I have information that leads me to think such, but you're correct that I have no way of knowing that. I have no way to know anything, and neither do you.

Where the fuck have I "treated" myself as anything? I make strides not to "treat" myself as anything, which explains why you cannot find a single post of mine where I mention myself as an "intellectual" or a "logical thinker". Those are not labels I'm going to bestow upon myself because my intellect is for others to decide, not me.

So then, you strive to treat yourself as nothing? Or do you not strive at all? And if you don't treat yourself like anything, then wouldn't treating me as anything, even if its founded by the logical path that circumstances point to, be an inequity?

Non-sequitur rhetorical questions aren't going to prove your point.

They aren't rhetorical. I want you to honestly answer them and feel free to post them if you like. And they aren't non-sequitor in the slightest: they are directly related to my point that we all know that eternity exists - we just all call it different things.

Most importantly, even if we consider that something is eternal (lets say any of the things you mention there - for the sake of argument) it would then be up to you to show how it would be valid to compare it to a "god".

Not to prove my point that we all know the same thing and simply label it differently. The label doesn't matter, simply the ignorance and the want to know. We all have both. And wouldn't eternity - something that doesn't change - be an objective measure to the subjective? We may misuse the one bit of knowledge we have, but it doesn't take away from the fact that it is knowledge whereas everything else we can think, feel, or do is merely information.

The existence of something which is eternal (which I'm assuming for the sake of argument) does not make it a "god"; especially not when we consider the other outrageous claims you've made to accompany that one.

Eternity lasts forever - it has the most power of anything: if not what you would call omnipotent, atleast very powerful. Only what is experienced can be known - eternity is eternity, thus omniscience is within. Eternity is the only objective. I choose to call eternity 'god'...I don't worship it, I don't do anything to it...but I don't take humanity's struggles as anything other than a struggle to be respected. This life is a shitstorm of insanity...anyone who lives with it is worthy of respect.

It's called "bullshit".

I'm using the very same tool you are: logic. You just don't respect my usage of it because I call eternity 'god'.

a. Call me "the worst of it all"...

Your ego, yes. It is your pride, it is the worst of it all.

b. Imply that I am ignorant of the "Truth" while it is you who (conveniently) know the "Truth"...

We both know the truth, which is that 'we don't know'. And I don't imply either of us are ignorant, I state it, because once again, 'we don't know'. If you have no real knowledge, then why judge those who do what you once thought you could?

My points come down to:

Eternity exists.

Everyone tries to know and they can't.

All we have is information and faith, both foolishly in pursuit of knowledge.

Whether any of that means an actual entity to call god is up to the individual, but the label you use to describe an eternal anything should not be the measure of your worth nor mine.

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

Edit: And btw, the only HONEST god-view is 'I don't know' Even after all the thoughts of miracles or curses, or the lack of evidence, etc...we still don't know.



That's not the point Hex, the crux is it's not what's 'real' or what is 'truth', or "HONEST", or whether one thinks they know something when in fact nobody knows. That is not the point, it is what each person believes to be true. If a person believes God to be "Vengeful" that will inform his "Life-View" which will determine one's level of consciousness, one's emotions and the processes one uses. If one's belief is that God is "Loving", life will seem "Benign", an "Emotion" of "Reverence" will be the common feeling, and a "Process" of "Revelation" will ensue. If one's "God-View" is of a "Condemning" God sentencing sinners to an inescapable eternal torment that will inform a "Hopeless" "Life-View" leading to "Emotion"s of "Despair" and a "Process" of "Abdication".

You see it is nothing to do with truth or logic, simply with what one believes to be true.

Peace http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:



Inequity makes me either inferior or superior; which is it? Or is inequity imagined and are you admitting equality between the two of us despite different interpretations of life, its beginnings, and its ends? I'd say we're equals that interpret the same ignorance differently.

What do you mean, 'which is it'? You said that I must have been saying that you were inferior because I was not 'treating you as an equal'. You not being my equal does not mean that you are inferior. You were wrong.

quote:

I have information that leads me to think such, but you're correct that I have no way of knowing that. I have no way to know anything, and neither do you.

If you have no way of knowing, then you shouldn't have said it, don't you agree?

It seems you see no problem at all with continuously claiming things you state you have no way of knowing. Awesome.

quote:

So then, you strive to treat yourself as nothing? Or do you not strive at all? And if you don't treat yourself like anything, then wouldn't treating me as anything, even if its founded by the logical path that circumstances point to, be an inequity?

I strive not to make any statements about my intellect or logical abilities. I made that perfectly clear.

This is wholly irrelevant. You admit that you have absolutely no way of knowing what you said, so this was nothing but a desperate attempt to either insult me, or changing the subject.

quote:They aren't rhetorical. I want you to honestly answer them and feel free to post them if you like. And they aren't non-sequitor in the slightest: they are directly related to my point that we all know that eternity exists - we just all call it different things.

They are non-sequiturs because 'if nothing is not eternal, and change is not necessarily eternal, then chaos doesn't have to be eternal' as you imply. This is one example out of many.

As for the answer, it is "no" to each and everyone of them, though that is irrelevant since I've already said I would take one of them as true (any of them) for the sake of argument.

quote:

Not to prove my point that we all know the same thing and simply label it differently. The label doesn't matter, simply the ignorance and the want to know. We all have both. And wouldn't eternity - something that doesn't change - be an objective measure to the subjective? We may misuse the one bit of knowledge we have, but it doesn't take away from the fact that it is knowledge whereas everything else we can think, feel, or do is merely information.

It is exactly that point which necessitates that you do so.

If we are simply labeling it differently, then you imply they are the same thing! To substantiate your ridiculous statement, you'd have to show how all of those (suppossedly) eternal things you mentioned equals a god. If they were different things, then we wouldn't be "simply labeling them differently", we would be actually refering to different things.

If your definition of a god is simply something eternal, then it is you who are redefining something here, not us.

quote:

Eternity lasts forever - it has the most power of anything: if not what you would call omnipotent, atleast very powerful. Only what is experienced can be known - eternity is eternity, thus omniscience is within. Eternity is the only objective. I choose to call eternity 'god'...I don't worship it, I don't do anything to it...but I don't take humanity's struggles as anything other than a struggle to be respected. This life is a shitstorm of insanity...anyone who lives with it is worthy of respect.

What you choose to do is utterly irrelevant because you are claiming to know what others do; that's the problem. When you say that "we choose to label it differently" then you are presuming to know both what I label as "god", and then that it is equal to what you say is "eternal".

quote:

I'm using the very same tool you are: logic. You just don't respect my usage of it because I call eternity 'god'.



There's absolutely nothing logical in claiming to know truth while admitting you know nothing. In fact, that is illogical by definition.

Don't debate this... you know nothing!

quote:

Your ego, yes. It is your pride, it is the worst of it all.



Thank you for proving my point and making the irony stand out even more. Complaining about me calling you inferior while you do much worse than that is hilarious to say the least.

quote:

My points come down to:

Eternity exists.

Everyone tries to know and they can't.

All we have is information and faith, both foolishly in pursuit of knowledge.

Your points deal with much more than that.

You've made a slew of claims and have yet to substantiate any one of them. You've claimed that you died... You've claimed that we create hell... You've claimed that we all "believe in a god with another label"... You've claimed we know nothing (the irony seems to escape you)...

That's what we call "bullshit".

If you want, you can ignore everything in my reply if you substantiate those claims you've made with evidence, or logical proof. This discussion has gotten de-railed by your out-of-place comments about my supposed "pride" which you have no clue about.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 10-11-2006).]

Ok I'll say it once more you simpleton.

If you want to be with God, you have to choose to be with him. You can also choose not too. I wasn't saying that as if I was imposing it on people. You're an idiot for misunderstanding me so badly.

quote:Originally posted by w33d:

Ok I'll say it once more you simpleton.

If you want to be with God, you have to choose to be with him. You can also choose not too. I wasn't saying that as if I was imposing it on people. You're an idiot for misunderstanding me so badly.

If you choose not to be with God, you burn in eternal hellfire. How is that "free" and "not imposing"? Do you actually know what the words mean?

quote:Originally posted by w33d:

you simpleton.

....

You're an idiot

What does the bible say about blessing and cursing coming from the same mouth? Ego is exposed by use of insult http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

Namaste http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

If your definition of a god is simply something eternal, then it is you who are redefining something here, not us.

THAT is exactly my point. It's all the same thing, just merely a question of the label applied.

This is wholly irrelevant. You admit that you have absolutely no way of knowing what you said, so this was nothing but a desperate attempt to either insult me, or changing the subject.

And you have no way of knowing what I said is 'bullshit'. For all you know, which is as little as I do, I might be God. I might be a figment of you imagination. I may even be you in a different dimension. There are millions of possibilities and you will never know which. Neither will I. I was using logic - information and where it points. Saying what I said is 'bullshit' means you believe yourself to know what bullshit is, does it not? But you don't know.

It seems you see no problem at all with continuously claiming things you state you have no way of knowing. Awesome.

Isn't that what you did when you called my expression 'bullshit'? You know the truth of life as well as I, and everyone else does: WE DON'T KNOW.

What do you mean, 'which is it'? You said that I must have been saying that you were inferior because I was not 'treating you as an equal'. You not being my equal does not mean that you are inferior. You were wrong.

How does inequity not mean either superiority or inferiority? In combination with my expression being called 'bullshit', I came to conclude that you thought of me as inferior. If me being full of shit doesn't make me inferior, then would that make you even more full of shit? Or do you understand the truth that we are ALL full of shit?

This is wholly irrelevant. You admit that you have absolutely no way of knowing what you said, so this was nothing but a desperate attempt to either insult me, or changing the subject.

It was neither, Rust. I respect you too much to insult you, because you question things more than anyone I've had the pleasure of coming across, and it seems as though you're closer than anyone I've ever come across to admitting and living ignorance. Information and faith are great, but you can be filled to the brim with both and would still be just as ignorant (agnostic if you prefer) as anyone else.

They are non-sequiturs because 'if nothing is not eternal, and change is not necessarily eternal, then chaos doesn't have to be eternal' as you imply. This is one example out of many.

I asked those questions as I did because I was hoping you, using the logic that you are most proficient with, would be able to see how the chain continues as such without me having to type up thousands of words for each question to express the reasoning behind them.

As for the answer, it is "no" to each and everyone of them, though that is irrelevant since I've already said I would take one of them as true (any of them) for the sake of argument.

I'm not here to argue with you Rust. Take nothing I say as a given for the sake of argument - I'm here to discuss, not shoot you down or convert you or anything of the sort; I just want to know why you think 'eternity' is bullshit, and that is all. If you can effectively shoot down something I say and believe no effective rebuttal to exist, please do so.

If we are simply labeling it differently, then you imply they are the same thing! To substantiate your ridiculous statement, you'd have to show how all of those (suppossedly) eternal things you mentioned equals a god. If they were different things, then we wouldn't be "simply labeling them differently", we would be actually refering to different things.

All I was trying to state is that we all believe in a an eternal - just I choose to call it god. I don't have to equate it to god because what *I* define god as is eternity. I give it no attributes because eternity is beyond the comprehension of something that is not eternal. Thus my statement that we are both ignorant, both equals, and pointless to be arguing.

If your definition of a god is simply something eternal, then it is you who are redefining something here, not us.

Which is exactly my point. And you calling something that never ends or begins merely eternity, would be a redefining of those who first called it a different name. I'm not trying to validate eternity as a god - it's simply the label I give to it. And no, there is no point to it - but there is also no reason to condemn, ridicule, argue, or anything else over it. Does the label matter? Abrahamaic religions call eternity IHVH. Buddhism calls it nirvana. Atheists call it the grave, the cycle of life and death, whatever...the label doesn't matter. We all know it exists and we all label it as different things; some of us prescribing attributes to it as a comfort blanket, some just accepting that we'll never know and then GET THE FUCK ALONG WITH LIFE.

[bThank you for proving my point and making the irony stand out even more. Complaining about me calling you inferior while you do much worse than that is hilarious to say the least.[/b]

Atleast you see part of the joke. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif) Look, we're human - we can utilize logic, faith, information, conclusions, whatever...but neither of us will ever know ANYTHING other than our own ignorance. We're discussing something neither of us have any clue about. So I suppose I'll say peace. If you do wish to continue discussing any of this, I'm open to it though.

AIM: Ecceleron

MSN: Ancyronomous

YIM: diabolyx666@yahoo.com

quote:Originally posted by elfstone:

If you choose not to be with God, you burn in eternal hellfire. How is that "free" and "not imposing"? Do you actually know what the words mean?

Doesn't the Bible also describe the eternal flame as 'cleansing'...and JC also says that you are passed through it, not set in it.

I'm not going to waste my time any more.

You've yet to substantiate anything you've said; instead, you've decided upon yourself to keep making more ridiculous allegations.

And as if we needed anymore of your bullshit, you go on to say that you know nothing and then that I know nothing as well... how you know that is, surprisingly enough ( http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif) ) unsubstantiated. A shocker indeed! I can't understand why anyone would describe you as a troll...

P.S. The colors red and blue are not equal. According to you one of them must be inferior. Could you please show me which one? At least then you would have provided something meaningful to this thread.

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

Doesn't the Bible also describe the eternal flame as 'cleansing'...and JC also says that you are passed through it, not set in it.

I don't know what kind of Bible you have there, but I'm fairly certain my copy mentions no such thing. Please post specific passages.

It doesn't even make sense for something eternal to be "cleansing". If it's supposed to "cleanse" you, this means it eventually ends.

I'm not going to waste my time any more.

Don't kill yourself.

You've yet to substantiate anything you've said; instead, you've decided upon yourself to keep making more ridiculous allegations.

What allegations have I made? I've said something eternal exists that none can know. Do you know the eternal? Has anyone ever known the eternal? Do I know the eternal? NO!

And as if we needed anymore of your bullshit, you go on to say that you know nothing and then that I know nothing as well... how you know that is, surprisingly enough ( http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif) ) unsubstantiated

LMFAO, you're saying the exact same thing I am and you don't even know it. Pull your head out of your ass.

I can't understand why anyone would describe you as a troll...

Am I trying to argue with you? No. Am I trolling for responses? No. I even asked if you'd like to carry the discussion off of totse so we don't need to keep this thread off-topic.

P.S. The colors red and blue are not equal. According to you one of them must be inferior. Could you please show me which one? At least then you would have provided something meaningful to this thread.

Red and blue are not different - they are wavelengths of light, that is all. You and I are not different - we are ignorant, that is all. Our projections and attempts to overcome it may differ, but we will both continue to be ignorant whether one of us goes to information in pursuit of knowledge, or whether one goes to faith in pursuit of knowledge.

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:



Don't kill yourself.

Don't flatter yourself.

quote:

What allegations have I made? I've said something eternal exists that none can know. Do you know the eternal? Has anyone ever known the eternal? Do I know the eternal? NO!

You've made a whole lot of allegations and I've listed some of them. Here:

"You've claimed that you died... You've claimed that we create hell... You've claimed that we all "believe in a god with another label"... You've claimed we know nothing (the irony seems to escape you)..."

quote:

LMFAO, you're saying the exact same thing I am and you don't even know it. Pull your head out of your ass.

Please, don't insult me by claiming I've said anything remotely close to the cockamamy bullshit you keep taking right out of your ass.

I haven't claimed that "we don't know anything"... I haven't claimed that I've died... I haven't claimed that "god" and "something eternal" are the same thing...

quote:

Am I trying to argue with you? No. Am I trolling for responses? No. I even asked if you'd like to carry the discussion off of totse so we don't need to keep this thread off-topic.

You're a troll in that you continue to make assertions and when you're asked to support them you do not do so. You flee, you change, you backpeddle, you refuse, but you certainly do not substantiate. For all intents and purposes, that's a troll.

quote:

Red and blue are not different - they are wavelengths of light, that is all. You and I are not different - we are ignorant, that is all. Our projections and attempts to overcome it may differ, but we will both continue to be ignorant whether one of us goes to information in pursuit of knowledge, or whether one goes to faith in pursuit of knowledge.

They are different, because they are different wavelengths in the electromagnetic spectrum. They are different, because if they weren't, we would be unable to distinguish them!

You are ignoring this because it refutes your moronic claim that simply because something is different it must mean one of them is superior and the other inferior. That may apply to numbers, but that does not apply to complex issues such as color, or the worth of a human being.

Don't flatter yourself.

LOL, it was a joke man. Ease up http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

You've claimed that you died... You've claimed that we create hell... You've claimed that we all "believe in a god with another label"... You've claimed we know nothing (the irony seems to escape you)...

Hmm, if my jail records were within my reach I'd put the infirmary records up on here, but I can't.

Do not people choose whether or not they are happy?

Isn't a supreme being the objective measure? If eternity is the only everlasting, then it is the objective measure of all that isn't everlasting.

And also, we're discussing information, not knowledge. If you can tell me something that you KNOW, I'd be happy to hear it. And there is no irony - information changes, knowledge does not. Neither of us know the eternal, neither of us know dick - we're discussing and debating the information stores we've collected and the processes we've used to draw conclusions, if any. Let me guess, because I don't have a source to link to on that, that's unsubstantiated too?

Please, don't insult me by claiming I've said anything remotely close to the cockamamy bullshit you keep taking right out of your ass.

Are we not both saying that the other knows nothing of what they speak?

I haven't claimed that "we don't know anything"... I haven't claimed that I've died... I haven't claimed that "god" and "something eternal" are the same thing...

Can you prove that statement errant? Or are you going to presume the negative based on agnosticism - negatives are created when the measure is information, positives when the measure is faith. There still is no knowledge of the truth.

Also, on me dying: I don't know how to access jail records of the infirmary, I was dead for 3 minutes and 44 seconds - successfully revived (obviously, lol)

I don't claim that eternity and god are the same either; I just choose to call eternity god. That's a personal choice. You may wish to deny that something is eternal, but no matter how you believe the universe to work, there is an attribute to it that is eternal - I call it god, you can call it just eternity if you want, but it doesn't change that neither of us personally know what it is; we merely have the information that it is. Religions use faith to attempt to know the eternal; it's the great secret that inspires creativity within us - Science uses information to attempt to know the eternal; it's the great secret that inspires inquisitive minds to continue their research into unknown areas. Do not mistake my calling of eternity god as saying that it is an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent entity - I simply call eternity god. That is MY personal choice, and has no effect on the actual attributes or existence of eternity.

You're a troll in that you continue to make assertions and when you're asked to support them you do not do so. You flee, you change, you backpeddle, you refuse, but you certainly do not substantiate. For all intents and purposes, that's a troll.

I'm not making a claim of knowledge though - I'm making a claim of ignorance, which if substantiated would no longer be ignorance but knowledge. I am no troll - I'm trying to express the depth of my ignorance the best I can without using information or faith; it is something I empathize deeply with others for. You are aware of the limits of logic - there is only one axiom (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/axiom). *going by definition one.

They are different, because they are different wavelengths in the electromagnetic spectrum. They are different, because if they weren't, we would be unable to distinguish them!

Quantitative difference, yes. Qualitative, no. Same with humans - our experiences differ, but we are still ignorant. We are equals based on quality of existence (which is ignorance) - not quantity of information and faith. Sorry for not explaining that earlier. If you disagree with that statement as well, we can continue.

You are ignoring this because it refutes your moronic claim that simply because something is different it must mean one of them is superior and the other inferior. That may apply to numbers, but that does not apply to complex issues such as color, or the worth of a human being.

Quantitative differences only make the subjective value inequal. Qualitative differences create objective inequities - all humans have the same 4 qualities: Human, Birth, Ignorance, Death. We all have human DNA, even if flawed; we are all born in one way or another; we all lack knowledge despite the wells of information and faith we may have learned/created; and we all die no matter how hard we try to live - I apologize for saying you treated me as an inferior, but it did seem so to me at the time; I had forgotten how much you value inerrant backing of statements, and thus took offense to your claim of my words being 'bullshit'. You would have done the same to anyone not backing their claims immediately.

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:



LOL, it was a joke man. Ease up

I'm completely at ease; your jokes are just not funny.

quote:

Hmm, if my jail records were within my reach I'd put the infirmary records up on here, but I can't.

Do not people choose whether or not they are happy?

Isn't a supreme being the objective measure? If eternity is the only everlasting, then it is the objective measure of all that isn't everlasting.

And also, we're discussing information, not knowledge. If you can tell me something that you KNOW, I'd be happy to hear it. And there is no irony - information changes, knowledge does not. Neither of us know the eternal, neither of us know dick - we're discussing and debating the information stores we've collected and the processes we've used to draw conclusions, if any. Let me guess, because I don't have a source to link to on that, that's unsubstantiated too?

What does that rant have to do with the fact that you did make allegations, allegations which you've yet to substantiate? And no, you don't have to provide a link neceseraly, you just have to support what you've said with something other than meaningless blather.

Also, information is knowledge.

That serves as a perfect example of what your rants consist of: the complete redefinition of all the terms you use.

You redefine "God" to something which is eternal. You redefine information when it's painfully clear that information is knowledge. You redefined faith in an other thread and said that it's not a belief when it clearly is a belief - one not based on evidence.

quote:

Are we not both saying that the other knows nothing of what they speak?

No. I'm saying you've yet to substantiate anything you've said. You've said unsubstantiated bullshit. Not the same thing.

quote:

Can you prove that statement errant? Or are you going to presume the negative based on agnosticism - negatives are created when the measure is information, positives when the measure is faith. There still is no knowledge of the truth.

I don't have to prove it errant because I didn't make a claim, you did. I just said that it was unsubstantiated, which, as of now, it is. That's how the burden of proof works: you make a claim, and you have to support what you've said if you are expecting anyone to take you seriously.

quote:

Also, on me dying: I don't know how to access jail records of the infirmary, I was dead for 3 minutes and 44 seconds - successfully revived (obviously, lol)

If you are alive now, then you didn't die. You heart might have stopped, but that is not death. Death is defined as complete brain death - which you obviously did not experience since you're not talking with us right now.

So no, you didn't die. Your heart might have stopped, you might have been unconscious, or you might have stopped breathing, but you didn't die.

quote:

I don't claim that eternity and god are the same either;

Yes you do. When you say that "everyone believes in god, they just label it differently" then you are claiming that "god" and the "eternal" are the same thing for those people - just with different labels. Thus, you are claiming that they are the same thing.

quote:

I'm not making a claim of knowledge though - I'm making a claim of ignorance, which if substantiated would no longer be ignorance but knowledge. I am no troll - I'm trying to express the depth of my ignorance the best I can without using information or faith; it is something I empathize deeply with others for. You are aware of the limits of logic - there is only one axiom (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/axiom). *going by definition one.



Stop grasping as straws. The fact is that you made claims which you have not substantiated. Whether they are the product of your ignorance or something else does not change a thing.

quote:

Quantitative difference, yes. Qualitative, no. Same with humans - our experiences differ, but we are still ignorant. We are equals based on quality of existence (which is ignorance) - not quantity of information and faith. Sorry for not explaining that earlier. If you disagree with that statement as well, we can continue.

They are qualitatively different because they exhibit different qualities. For example, their distinct color. Grasp more straws... see if they can help you.

quote:

Quantitative differences only make the subjective value inequal. Qualitative differences create objective inequities - all humans have the same 4 qualities: Human, Birth, Ignorance, Death. We all have human DNA, even if flawed; we are all born in one way or another; we all lack knowledge despite the wells of information and faith we may have learned/created; and we all die no matter how hard we try to live - I apologize for saying you treated me as an inferior, but it did seem so to me at the time; I had forgotten how much you value inerrant backing of statements, and thus took offense to your claim of my words being 'bullshit'. You would have done the same to anyone not backing their claims immediately.

That has nothing to do with the fact that simply because something is not equal doesn't mean something must be inferior. You are avoiding the obvious conclusion of your statements, which is that they were wrong.

I'm completely at ease; your jokes are just not funny.

They are to me. :P

What does that rant have to do with the fact that you did make allegations, allegations which you've yet to substantiate? And no, you don't have to provide a link neceseraly, you just have to support what you've said with something other than meaningless blather.

It was the reason that they are not substantiated. I'm claiming ignorance Rust...how am I to prove that I am ignorant? I cannot.

Also, information is knowledge.

I'll link the defintions which I'm using so that you can see why I take them as different; information is the collected data, knowledge is the lived: information (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/information) 8b

knowledge (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/knowledge) 3

That serves as a perfect example of what your rants consist of: the complete redefinition of all the terms you use.

My apologies for not bringing out which denotations I was using.

You redefine "God" to something which is eternal. You redefine information when it's painfully clear that information is knowledge. You redefined faith in an other thread and said that it's not a belief when it clearly is a belief - one not based on evidence.

I don't redefine. I have no definition of God. I simply CHOOSE to call eternity god. I don't define God as eternity, I don't define eternity as god. It is the only objective measure I can concieve, thus I call it god. It doesn't mean that 'eternity' is THE definition of God; it is a personal choice that needs no information or faith. It is simply a choice...nothing more.

Belief (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/belief) 2

Faith (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faith) 1

That is why belief and faith, in the context I used them, are not the same.

No. I'm saying you've yet to substantiate anything you've said. You've said unsubstantiated bullshit. Not the same thing.

And I'm saying that nothing can be substantiated other than the one axiom. It's a statement of ignorance - I'm calling myself ignorant, and you're calling my words ignorant; which they are. We're saying the same thing.

I don't have to prove it errant because I didn't make a claim, you did. I just said that it was unsubstantiated, which, as of now, it is. That's how the burden of proof works: you make a claim, and you have to support what you've said if you are expecting anyone to take you seriously.

Very true. I'm telling you that there is no way to prove that I am ignorant. If ignorance is absence of knowledge, then any knowledge that evidence points to would no longer be ignorance, but its inverse.

If you are alive now, then you didn't die. You heart might have stopped, but that is not death. Death is defined as complete brain death - which you obviously did not experience since you're not talking with us right now.

Taken from: http://www.alcor.org/FAQs/faq02.html

We know that secondary memory does not depend on continued activity of the nervous system, because the brain can be TOTALLY INACTIVATED (emphasis added) by cooling, by general anesthesia, by hypoxia, by ischemia, or by any method, and yet secondary memories that have been previously stored are still retained when the brain becomes active once again.

Yes you do. When you say that "everyone believes in god, they just label it differently" then you are claiming that "god" and the "eternal" are the same thing for those people - just with different labels. Thus, you are claiming that they are the same thing.

No. I am not claiming that they are the same thing. Do not tell me what I'm claiming. I am claiming that everyone believes in eternity, and that I call it god - others label it as all sorts of fucking things, I call it god. That does not mean that it is god to the multitudes, or god to anyone else. Christianity calls their God the 'everlasting', the alpha/omega, etc. Judaism and Islam the same. Hindus as the eternal cycle. Buddhists call their nirvana the eternal inexistence. And so on. Atheists are typically known to call it outright eternity. I make no claim that they are THE same; I simply call eternity 'god'. I'm not childish enough to think my quantitative view of eternity changes the qualitative view of eternity.

Stop grasping as straws. The fact is that you made claims which you have not substantiated. Whether they are the product of your ignorance or something else does not change a thing.

I AM CLAIMING IGNORANCE. I CANNOT SUBSTANTIATE THE CLAIM THAT I LACK KNOWLEDGE. IF I COULD, I WOULD NOT LACK KNOWLEDGE.

(this is bolded not for anger, but because it is the only point I am trying to make, the rest is rubbish and meaningless to my original post and subsequent posts)

They are qualitatively different because they exhibit different qualities. For example, their distinct color. Grasp more straws... see if they can help you.

The brain interprets quantitative frequency as a color - they still possess the same quality, which is a wavelength of light. I am grasping no straws.

That has nothing to do with the fact that simply because something is not equal doesn't mean something must be inferior. You are avoiding the obvious conclusion of your statements, which is that they were wrong.

Unequal (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/unequal) 4

Inferior (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/inferior)

3

Once again, I do apologize that context clues were not enough, though I do believe you've stated some time far back that English is not your first language.

Edit: Had to fix some UBB code.

[This message has been edited by Hexadecimal (edited 10-13-2006).]

You people are too lost to get across to on a message board. You should try to go and debate a priest.

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:



They are to me. :P



I wouldn't be saying that aloud if I were you.

quote:

It was the reason that they are not substantiated. I'm claiming ignorance Rust...how am I to prove that I am ignorant? I cannot.

If you were claiming ignorance, you wouldn't have said them in the first place. You made positive assertions. Those can be substantiated. If you are claiming that you have absolutely no knowledge to substantiate them, then wonderful. Your statements remain unsubstantiated bullshit.

It seems you want the best of both worlds: the ability to make claims, and then the escapegoat of claiming ignorance so that you don't have to substantiate a single piece of the bullshit you've spread.

quote:

I'll link the defintions which I'm using so that you can see why I take them as different; information is the collected data, knowledge is the lived: information (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/information) 8b

knowledge (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/knowledge) 3



That shows absolutely no difference. The definition of "information" leads to "knowledge" out of necessity, and the definition of "knowledge" you speak of is simply the accumulation of many facts (i.e. information) about a specific area. There is no difference save for one speaking of the whole of knowledge in an area (e.g. the body of knowledge in Science) and the other speaks of the many different pieces of information (i.e. pieces of knowledge) which make up that body of knowledge.

quote:

I don't redefine. I have no definition of God. I simply CHOOSE to call eternity god. I don't define God as eternity, I don't define eternity as god. It is the only objective measure I can conceive, thus I call it god. It doesn't mean that 'eternity' is THE definition of God; it is a personal choice that needs no information or faith. It is simply a choice...nothing more.

Belief (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/belief) 2

Faith (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faith) 1

That is why belief and faith, in the context I used them, are not the same.

You definitely are redefining it even if you're not conscious of it. You are redefining it indirectly.

If I were to call you "moron", and then say that I've simply chosen to call "Hexadecimal", "moron" instead, I've redefined the word "moron" to mean Hexadecimal. It is a redefinition that makes an already established word point to something else entirely; we know what it is pointing to because you've redefined it.

When you call the eternal, "god", then you are redefining the word "god" in a way that it no longer points to the definition which is commonly used, but to simply something that is eternal.

quote:

And I'm saying that nothing can be substantiated other than the one axiom. It's a statement of ignorance - I'm calling myself ignorant, and you're calling my words ignorant; which they are. We're saying the same thing.

If you are ignorant, then please do me a favor and stop posting. I don't want to waste my time trying to get you to support your allegations if you're going to claim ignorance the moment you have a burden of proof.

quote:

Very true. I'm telling you that there is no way to prove that I am ignorant. If ignorance is absence of knowledge, then any knowledge that evidence points to would no longer be ignorance, but its inverse.

True. All the more reason why it is idiotic to claim that you're ignorant, and even more idiotic to keep making allegations after you've admitted that you believe that you're ignorant.

quote:

Taken from: http://www.alcor.org/FAQs/faq02.html

We know that secondary memory does not depend on continued activity of the nervous system, because the brain can be TOTALLY INACTIVATED (emphasis added) by cooling, by general anesthesia, by hypoxia, by ischemia, or by any method, and yet secondary memories that have been previously stored are still retained when the brain becomes active once again.

An inactive brain does not equal brain death, hence you've said absolutely nothing of value. The fact remains that if you were brain dead you cannot be speaking right now. You were obviously not brain dead at all.

quote:

No. I am not claiming that they are the same thing. Do not tell me what I'm claiming. I am claiming that everyone believes in eternity, and that I call it god - others label it as all sorts of fucking things, I call it god. That does not mean that it is god to the multitudes, or god to anyone else. Christianity calls their God the 'everlasting', the alpha/omega, etc. Judaism and Islam the same. Hindus as the eternal cycle. Buddhists call their nirvana the eternal inexistence. And so on. Atheists are typically known to call it outright eternity. I make no claim that they are THE same; I simply call eternity 'god'. I'm not childish enough to think my quantitative view of eternity changes the qualitative view of eternity.

I can tell you what you're claiming if that's what you said. You said that others simply relabel god, which means they hold the same definition with a different label. If that were not the case, then your statement "everyone believes in a god" would be wrong.

quote:

I AM CLAIMING IGNORANCE. I CANNOT SUBSTANTIATE THE CLAIM THAT I LACK KNOWLEDGE. IF I COULD, I WOULD NOT LACK KNOWLEDGE.

The problem being is that you cannot expect people to not demand a substantiation of your ridiculous and positive assertions. It seems you admit that you cannot substantiate your ridiculous assertions which means they should be dismissed outright. Thank you.



quote:

The brain interprets quantitative frequency as a color - they still possess the same quality, which is a wavelength of light. I am grasping no straws.

It's not the same quality, because the fact that their wavelength is different means they also possess different qualities. They belong in different areas of the electromagnetic spectrum, they represent different colors, and they possess different energies. They are different in all possible definitions of the word.

I also find it hilarious that you keep making these claims when you are also claiming ignorance. It seems rather unethical, and simply idiotic, to keep making claims such as that one when you consider yourself ignorant.

quote:

Once again, I do apologize that context clues were not enough, though I do believe you've stated some time far back that English is not your first language.

My English has nothing to do with this problem, it's that you are fishing for definitions in all the words you are using to allow you to make so many ridiculous statements such as that one.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 10-13-2006).]

Someday, you'll realize, that the only way to win is to give up. Peace.

As if I had any illusions that "winning" could ever be a possibility by discussing things with you. Sorry, but your inane rantings shattered that dream long ago.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

If you are alive now, then you didn't die. You heart might have stopped, but that is not death. Death is defined as complete brain death - which you obviously did not experience since you're not talking with us right now.

I made a funny by mistake!

Hey w33d.

Before you start "preaching" to these people you must first pick up your Bible and read it and understanding, and ask for more guidance and just take time to learn the Bible and whatnot.. That way you can gain wisdom. Because the people on here are intelligent... Just some tips from one Christian to another.. Read the Bible, understand it and then go for it... Ok? Preaching the Word without any understanding is like taking on the American armed forces with a pistol and 2 rounds... Your going to get hammered.. Build a better defence and better offence.. So you can fight ok? until then, I advice you shoosh, and study and learn the Bible..

Hope that helps

quote:Originally posted by w33d:

God created us because he wanted us to be with him. He gave us free will, lest we be just simple automatons, so we must choose to be with him.

Your concept of free will is utterly wrong.

quote:Originally posted by Frost:

How can a human just be made to function itself

The world is something very carefully planned

whats on it, who is created, the times everything, How can anyone say its just Self existent......... Can a whole day event go smoothly without it being planned and controlled by some one? no

Because we have been learning how to coexist with eachother for the past fifteen thousand years...



quote:Originally posted by germangirl:

I feel sorry for all you religious people out there. It is mearly human nature that we must have some form of "God" to believe in. We as humans have always needed to have something to blame when shit goes wrong and to keep us going during those times. What people don't see is that when shit happens and we pray, nothing happens!! So why not give up on this stupid ideal "he loves us no matter what" and find someone to help you with your problems instead of using a stupid imaginary friend? I'm very sorry that ya'll do that.

Quoted For Truth.

God is a figure that we beleive in in order to justify the good\bad things that happen.

Of course, if you don't beleive in my god, then you are automatically wrong. http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

quote:Originally posted by w33d:

What is God? Do He have to be defined by we who cannot comprehend his form? What's important is that He is the baseline, the center, the foundation you base your life on. I have seen many people turn away from God, citing unintelligible intellectual reasons like I see here. In reality it is just a part of the self-justifying, self-serving "morality" trap that many people fall into. Cheating on schoolwork, fucking passed out girls, irresponsible sex, binge drinking, drug addiction, petty vandalism, gambling, lying, stealing. All of these activities are common and accepted among America's secular youth.

Shut up you stupid cunt. Do you honestly thing that God [if there is one] really cares whether yuo do drugs, or drink, or cheat on homework??

quote:Originally posted by ate:

Life can't be meaningless and random even if you try to make it that way.

Life doesn't necessarily have no meaning, that depends on the person. It does however have no purpose, that is, human existance is not for a purpose. We are here to live, make children, raise children, die.



PS: these are all just comments I have from the first page... ill read the third page in a minute

quote:Originally posted by w33d:

You people are too lost to get across to on a message board. You should try to go and debate a priest.

God is real because it says it in the bible.

I beleive in god therefore god is real.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

I beleuive in a giant pink squirrel thats on my head, i have faith that its there... does that make it exist?? NO!!!

Whoever was telling some shit about reading the bible please gtfo now.

No one here has put up a decent alternative to:

Love your nieghbor as I have loved you and love your neighbor as yourself.

quote:Originally posted by w33d:

Love your nieghbor as I have loved you and love your neighbor as yourself.

That's not bad. I just don't think

god said that, I think a man said it.

Humans are somewhat inclined to love

their neighbor anyhow, if they don't

have any reasons not to.

Somebody decided that it would be

nice to make it a formal suggestion.

i havnt read any of the other replies other than the first topic post...

w33d, how can you assume that without god, one's existence is random and meaning less? rather i'd say that those who cannot find meaning in life find god.

GOD is just one of the many proposals to a meaningful existence. similarly by your logic, i can say "staying alive is the meaning of my existence and those who do not beleive so are living a meaningless existence."

quote:Originally posted by w33d:

Whoever was telling some shit about reading the bible please gtfo now.

No one here has put up a decent alternative to:

Love your nieghbor as I have loved you and love your neighbor as yourself.

What an admirable refutation. I think he's a troll.

quote:Originally posted by SmokingSalmon:

i havnt read any of the other replies other than the first topic post...

w33d, how can you assume that without god, one's existence is random and meaning less? rather i'd say that those who cannot find meaning in life find god.

GOD is just one of the many proposals to a meaningful existence. similarly by your logic, i can say "staying alive is the meaning of my existence and those who do not beleive so are living a meaningless existence."

The thing is, that all purposes for living are beyond the comprehension of a finite being in an infinite existence. Ozymandeus my friend, everything fades away, so in the end, what purpose is there...what meaning is there to go on? If you're still alive, it's simple: you believe in something that you have no reason to. Any purpose found can be misattributed (or properly thus) to a 'god', if so chosen.

quote:Originally posted by w33d:

Then you believe no one created you.

And if no one created you then your existence is random and meaningless.

Just because someone didn't create me, I am still not meaningless.

See, us non-religious folk have a certain degree of independance, we don't require anything but ourselves and our concepts to substantiate us.

Tell me, Rust: do you have any formal training in philosophy? You've got great analytic and argumentative skills, and write clearly and concisely. A rare virtue, around these parts. Well done.



Entheogenic