The answer is that there doesn't need to be a god, and most likely isn't. Why couldn't the universe just exist? If god supposedly does, why not the universe. Is there even a difference between the universe and God. I don't think their is. God is just a metaphor for the universe. It fits nicely into everything we know really.

All knowledge, God has, the universe comprised of it. The universe is actually quite simple. There is a beginning, and an end. Between those to points lies every possibility for every logical chemical structure, starting from pure energy, building up to organic beings, coming to a climax, and then back to energy. Space is shared by multiple variations of the universe that could be in existence at that specific point in time. But overall, when you add everything up from the beginning to end, all possible knowledge exists between those points. All time exists in the same space, so really everything is happening at once. Even extremes that would appear to be heaven and hell to us, are existing around us right as we speak.

Really the universe, although appears to be solid, is just energy in all it's forms. Energy is power, so the Universe is all powerful.

Basically what I'm proposing is that it isn't God that doesn't exist, it our perception of what God is that is wrong. God is just a system of energy balance, bound by logical constraints for the function to be possible.

Even when It comes to characters like Jesus. Was he a myth, a man, the son of god? Why does it matter is my question. Is the source of good ideas more important than the ideas themselves? It's not to me. If you see god as I do, we are all sons and daughter, but also part of god, and all human at once. Even if he is a mythical idea created by mortals, it is still good wisdom that he displayed.

However, what is the purpose of holy books then? They aren't the inspired word of god, so what are they. What is their purpose?

I'm thinking what mankind needs to do, is to sit and think about these multiple universes sorrounding us and contemplate how we can get from this point, to the multiverse that is heaven. We need to think about how we see heaven, what would make it work, what would bring that kind of peace. I have some pretty good ideas about the steps we need to take, and the mentality we need to adopt to see our dream become a reality if anyone cares to listen. Or just be part of the problem. However, the solution might be to remove those who are part of the problem one day. It's actually quite likely.

quote:Originally posted by easeoflife22:

The answer is that there doesn't need to be a god, and most likely isn't. Why couldn't the universe just exist?

.....

All knowledge, God has, the universe comprised of it. The universe is actually quite simple. There is a beginning, and an end.

.......

I have some pretty good ideas about the steps we need to take, and the mentality we need to adopt to see our dream become a reality if anyone cares to listen. Or just be part of the problem. However, the solution might be to remove those who are part of the problem one day. It's actually quite likely.

Does it depend on what one thinks of as God? If it is like the ancient Greeks, that is the LOGOS or Reason regarded as the 'controlling' principle of the Universe, then would it be like the scientific search for the 'Unifying Principle? What is the Ultimate Cause? Is that God?

Regarding your statement: "The universe is actually quite simple. There is a beginning, and an end." How is that simple? For there to be a beginning and an end begs the questions: what was before and what will be after? Why does there need to be a beginning or an end?

What are your ideas re: "steps we need to take, and the mentality we need to adopt to see our dream become a reality" and what do you mean by: "the solution might be to remove those who are part of the problem one day."?

Peace http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by redzed:



What are your ideas re: "steps we need to take, and the mentality we need to adopt to see our dream become a reality" and what do you mean by: "the solution might be to remove those who are part of the problem one day."?

Peace http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)



it is, of course, the Final solution.

God doesn't manipulate doesn't manipulate the system, god is the system. It's not exactly the tradional thinking that god is a being, like in Islam, Christianity, etc.

Beginning, and end, are just arbitrary reference points given on a scale of time created by us. It would be silly to expect the universe to follow this scale, the end exists simultaneousely with the beginning, and all other points that could be referenced in time. It's all constantly existing simultaneousely, never beginning, never ending, etc. There never was a before the universe, and there will be an after the universe, there is simply always a universe. Remember, nothing can be created or destroyed. The universe didn't come from nothing, and will never reduce to nothing.

We should be working towards a better world. Certain types of thinking, are negative, and will always work against the unification of humanity and hinder this persuit. It takes a different thought process that can be learned to grease the wheels to make what we want possible. Some of the steps include learning how to create a sustainable populous at a reasonable living standard. We need to make sure the planets ecosystems, which are our life support, continue functioning indefinitely until the sun dies. Those who wish to maintain the mentalities that cause major conflict and keep the world from uniting, cannot exist. It's simple, you change and accept for the greater good, or die. Honestly, I don't even see us realizing this eutopia without a major clensing of all those who stand in the way. Ironically, the people who want this goal will kill less people than those who don't. We're likely to see some pretty major conflict in the near future. They should get the population target right on track, get peoples mentalies in the right place, and things will naturally prevail as long as there is a few of us to lead the masses to this thinking.

I think time is a pretty developed concept, and it's apparent the universe didn't come from nothing, the question is WHERE or WHAT did it come from? If it has existed infinitely throughout the history of forever then why hasn't the universe reached thermal equilibrium?

If there is nothing outside of the universe then the universe isn't expanding, since it has nothing to expand in, what or where is the universe then? Where are it's boundries?

If it has no boundries, why don't all points of view in the night sky end in a star? In an infinite universe there would be an infinite number of stars in every direction indefinately, causing the night sky to be just as bright as day, if not more.

THESE are questions we don't understand

If you don't have a better idea than the big bang theory then read this:

Why were the scales tipped in the favor of matter during the creation of the universe? and how were they?

How did life form on this planet? leaving things up to entropy (randomness) would leave the chance of a carbon atom being randomly formed slim to none. (VERY slim)

If time doesn't exist and all things that ever will or have happened is happening right now why hasn't the universe ended yet?

and most of the original post is based around the idea that energy is directly related to mass, which Einstein figured out a while back.

If our perception of God is wrong, what is the right perception? (What's YOUR religion?)

You also say there are multiple universes surrounding us? Where are they? What is their size and purpose? and why can't we reach them?

and the Final Solution idea doesn't sound too good either.

My main problem with your first post was my problem with all law (especially schools) today, instead of trying to remove the problem by dropping the "fuck you" curtain on everyone, why not try to EDUCATE and HELP those that require enlightenment BEFORE you decide that they're beyond repair and require to be killed.

Edit: Sorry, got rushed out of class, the point I was trying to make is that there needs to be a God because if there was then it would make a LOT more sense of the universe.

To me it's more illogical to think there isn't a God, or at least SOMETHING.

[This message has been edited by One Kill Wonder (edited 10-03-2006).]

Why is it apparent the universe didn't come from nothing? Time doesn't exist. Every type of measurement is relative to two or more reference points. There is no evidence supporting that there was nothing before the universe. The only evidence we have, supports that there has always been a universe. Since it's not bound by time, which we created and the universe doesn't have to abide by, why couldn't it just always exist?

It has reached thermal equilibrium, at what we call the beginning and end, which are both existing at this moment around us.

The universe isn't inside of anything, and it's infinitiely looped into itself. It has no boundries, beginnings, or an end.

The universe is an infinite loop, however, the damn loop is large and light fades over distance. That's basic science.

These are answers to those question you don't understand.

Matter is just energy, it can be formed from it, and broken up back into it. I don't know what you mean by the scales where tipped.

Life started on this planet because of light hitting atoms and causing bonds. Atoms got complex from emissions of radiation combined with mass amounts of pressure during the big bang. Eventually the bonds created situations for other bonds to form. Different forms of electromagnetic radiation also dictated those bonds. Eventually they got complex enough to start trasporting other compounds through bonding points until we eventually ended up with very complex lifeforms like ourselves. The system was solar powered.

"If time doesn't exist and all things that ever will or have happened is happening right now why hasn't the universe ended yet?"

The universe is literally a system of all mathematical possibilies of energy formation and flow. It ranges from explosion of all energy, to and implosion of all energy. The extremes of these ranges aren't the beginning and end. These points are in infinite existence, just like the time we're in.

Einstein laid the foundation, I'm finishing the house. I'm not taking credit for his ideas, but I did build upon them.

The right perception is that it's not God, but the closest thing to a God is simply the Universe. We're part of god, god is everything etc. It's just the universe.

I don't have a religion. There is no need for religion. I sure hope we as a race strive for the reality that is a peaceful eutopia insteas of a living hell. We don't need a relgion to unify man for this goal, and it usually gets in the way of it.

"You also say there are multiple universes surrounding us? Where are they? What is their size and purpose? and why can't we reach them?"

They occupy the same space as ours, but because they are another dimension, we don't see them. We can reach them, and phycisists are actually working on it. We're also in the process of bulding an actual time machine to travel to different points in the universe, aswell as dimensions.

"My main problem with your first post was my problem with all law (especially schools) today, instead of trying to remove the problem by dropping the "fuck you" curtain on everyone, why not try to EDUCATE and HELP those that require enlightenment BEFORE you decide that they're beyond repair and require to be killed."

Those who can be enlightened and wish to help won't be destroyed, but those who refuse what needs to be done, must be dealt with.

"Edit: Sorry, got rushed out of class, the point I was trying to make is that there needs to be a God because if there was then it would make a LOT more sense of the universe.

To me it's more illogical to think there isn't a God, or at least SOMETHING."

Well, until you start contemplating where god came from, you know, since the universe has to come from a god, there must be a god that created god. That's logical?

I think people just like the idea of there being a god, it gives them a warm fuzzy feeling of purpose and meaning, and protection. Sounds like a mom, lol.

I think it just scares the shit out of people that everything is completely out of control, and we're riding around on a giant unstable rock with asteroids, that could equal sudden death, whizzing by are heads at blazing speeds. Like walking in the woods at night, it's the unknown that scares you.

If OP is saying that God does not exist as some some of being--say an old white dude sitting on a cloud, or some Greek fart on a celestial toga--I agree.

In my book, God IS the Universe. God is the majesty of the eagle's flight and the innocence of the doe in the forest. God is the wind that bears the fragance of the rose. God is the rose and God is the fragrance itself.

God is also the dead dog in the road, and the maggots feeding on it. God is the tear on the face of the abused child, and God is the abuser.

When you can see the divinity of God in all things, you will have come a long way towards realizing your Mastery in fullness.

quote:Originally posted by easeoflife22:

Why is it apparent the universe didn't come from nothing? Time doesn't exist. Every type of measurement is relative to two or more reference points. There is no evidence supporting that there was nothing before the universe. The only evidence we have, supports that there has always been a universe. Since it's not bound by time, which we created and the universe doesn't have to abide by, why couldn't it just always exist?

Evidence we have say that the universe HASN'T existed indefinately, there is a background radiation that exists that we've been looking at to determine when the big bang happened

"It has reached thermal equilibrium, at what we call the beginning and end, which are both existing at this moment around us."

The universe isn't currently in thermal equilibrium, sorry. And I won't believe our universe defies proven laws of physics.

"The universe isn't inside of anything, and it's infinitiely looped into itself. It has no boundries, beginnings, or an end.

The universe is an infinite loop, however, the damn loop is large and light fades over distance. That's basic science."

It's basic science that light BENDS not dissipates into nothingness in space. Light is bent around (or blocked) by large masses in space, or large gravitational pulls rather. (black holes, dark matter, large stars)



"Matter is just energy, it can be formed from it, and broken up back into it. I don't know what you mean by the scales where tipped."

I mean they were tipped because there was supposed to be an equal amount of matter for the amount of anti-matter in the universe. Small particles are created all the time, they blink into existence to clash with one another and go back out of existence. They are actually what is theorized to be the thermal radiation that comes off of black holes (One pops up JUST within a black hole, the other flies off)

"Life started on this planet because of light hitting atoms and causing bonds. Atoms got complex from emissions of radiation combined with mass amounts of pressure during the big bang. Eventually the bonds created situations for other bonds to form. Different forms of electromagnetic radiation also dictated those bonds. Eventually they got complex enough to start trasporting other compounds through bonding points until we eventually ended up with very complex lifeforms like ourselves. The system was solar powered."

Life started on this planet because the birth of the sun caused a large wave of dust to form a circle around the newborn star, over time it gather into a sphere, continually in orbit, of the star. Theoretically, comets of ice hit the Earth and allowed water, the Earth just happened to be within the allowable temperature range for life and viola. After that I don't know much.

What I meant was that the nuclear fusion that occurs in stars, most often only forms large compounds such as iron (the space dust that formed our planet, and is the theoretical core of the Earth) It doesn't account for how a carbon atom, and many other atoms necessary for life, were formed.

"They occupy the same space as ours, but because they are another dimension, we don't see them. We can reach them, and phycisists are actually working on it. We're also in the process of bulding an actual time machine to travel to different points in the universe, aswell as dimensions."

How are we getting out of an infinitely large dimension into smaller ones (I'm assuming ones also of infinite size, somehow) if time doesn't exist and the universe only exists in three inescapable dimensions. How are we supposed to find a way around it?

And a time machine wouldn't travel to different points on an X, Y, or Z axis, as a matter of fact, according to you it wouldn't travel anywhere.

"Well, until you start contemplating where god came from, you know, since the universe has to come from a god, there must be a god that created god. That's logical?"

Where did YOUR god come from then? It's logical because it makes the simplest answer to me questions we may never be able to answer. I say that because I am a positivist. And as much as I am for cold hard evidence of things, faith isn't faith with a pile of evidence. Occidental minds are too trained to be demanding of evidence, I try to keep an open mind, even if I have no evidence to support the few of my beliefs that can't' be proven. And neither does anyone else regarding to things of that nature.

quote:Originally posted by One Kill Wonder:



If there is nothing outside of the universe then the universe isn't expanding, since it has nothing to expand in, what or where is the universe then? Where are it's boundries?

THESE are questions we don't understand





Is it because we are thinkin only in terms of 'matter' as the universe? If one considers that about 95% of the universe is 'dark energy' and 'dark matter' and what we are able to perceive is a tiny 5% there is plenty of room for expansion.

quote:"I'm as big a fan of dark matter and dark energy as anybody else", says astronomer Richard Ellis of Caltech. But he adds, "I find it worrying that you ahve a universe where there are three constituents, of which only one(i.e. ordinary matter) is really physically understood".

"When you teach undergraduates, and they say, 'Well, what is dark matter?' Well nobody's really sure. 'What is dark energy?' We're even less sure. So you have to explain to a student, that 90 percent of the universe, 95 percent, is in two ingredients that nobody really understands," says Ellis. "This isn't really progress."

http:/www.space.com/scienceastronomy/astronomy/cosmic_darknrg_020115-1.html



And neither is it progress in describing 'the universe' as God nor as "maggots" http://www.totse.com/bbs/eek.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/eek.gif)

The greeks described God as the Logos, or Reason regarded as the highest, or controlling principle of the Universe. Would it be more usefull to describe God in a more personal sense as the controlling principle of one's life, thoughts and actions?

Peace http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

"Evidence we have say that the universe HASN'T existed indefinately, there is a background radiation that exists that we've been looking at to determine when the big bang happened"

When? The problem with when, is that scientists are holding the universe to a time table. We invented time, and the universe is not bound by it. When, is meaningless. Just cause we observe events happening at different times, did they? Refer to Einsteins theory of relativity.

Think about this. What if time is instant? If it were infinitely instant, the universe's entire cycle from big bang to big collapse would all happen all at once. We view our lives as going by slowly, but what if that 76 average years actually went buy at the absolute speed of light? It would mean that no time at all went by in those 76 years. Time is relative to our perception of it, but it might literally all be instant and we wouldn't be able to tell. Those 76 years happened all at once.

Answer this question. Define the speed of time? Time is inversely proportional to speed. If the universe is comprised of pure energy, pure energy travels at infinite speed, then time no longer exists. Therefore, if the entire universe is made of pure energy, no time goes by in it's entire cycle.

"The universe isn't currently in thermal equilibrium, sorry. And I won't believe our universe defies proven laws of physics."

Well not from this observation point it isn't.

"It's basic science that light BENDS not dissipates into nothingness in space. Light is bent around (or blocked) by large masses in space, or large gravitational pulls rather. (black holes, dark matter, large stars)"

Actually, it does dissipate in space because of Zero Point Energy, or ZPE. ZPE is dead energy from stars. As it builds up, light actually travels slower. It creates friction on light. By measuring the levels of ZPE, we can calculate what point in the universe we are in. I believe it's likely how we'll find our bearing in time travel.

The anti-matter question comes down to this. Have we seen the whole universe? Can you actually prove that there is more matter than anti-matter. Or is this just a theory created from what we've seen so far in the universe. Maybe the centers of planets and stars are clusters of anti-matter? Maybe we just can't find it.



"Life started on this planet because the birth of the sun caused a large wave of dust to form a circle around the newborn star, over time it gather into a sphere, continually in orbit, of the star. Theoretically, comets of ice hit the Earth and allowed water, the Earth just happened to be within the allowable temperature range for life and viola. After that I don't know much."



Well that's how the life of the planet started, I thought you were asking about how the first compounds formed and became living organisms. Under immense pressure and radiation, atoms can split and reform into a more complex nucleus. Like on a star, when two hydrogens form a Helium atom. And then those helium atoms are pressured together with another hydrogen, and we get lithium. On a planet that is more dense, the greater pressures could form the even more complex atoms that make up our environment. Even the unstable reactive ones. Didn't you notice the earth pukes up heavy atoms, and doesn't get dusted by them?

"How are we getting out of an infinitely large dimension into smaller ones (I'm assuming ones also of infinite size, somehow) if time doesn't exist and the universe only exists in three inescapable dimensions. How are we supposed to find a way around it?"

Fold space and step through. It's energy, we can manipulate it to create doorways. I don't know what you mean by smaller dimensions. They all have the same energy composition. Technically, size is relative anyways.

"And a time machine wouldn't travel to different points on an X, Y, or Z axis, as a matter of fact, according to you it wouldn't travel anywhere."

It doesn't have to. It's more like time accessing. The only problem is, you might not come back to this dimension again. Unless we can somehow plot dimensions and a time table set to the universe. We'll probably just get lost. Like that show sliders, lol.

"Where did YOUR god come from then?"

Duh, my point is that the universe doesn't need to come from anything, it is everything. It's only when you say the universe had to come from a god, then one must ask why the universe can't just exist, but a god can. Therefore, to say a god can just exist, you must acknowledge that the universe could also just exist, raising the question," why do we need a god at all then?"

The simple answer is that we don't, and that there isn't one.

The simplest answer actually is that the universe just exists, always has, always will, and God is just another unecessary step that complicates everything for no reason.

In one sense, God is NOT necessary. That is, one may live out one's life without knowing god and achieve material success, do good works, and all that stuff. God treats atheits the shae as everyone else--that is, with infinite uncodnitional love and compassion.

I would think it to be a rather uncomfortable situation at some level--even a preconscious one-- since one's mind would always be at odds with one's soul. All the atheists I have known well seemed to be in a constant state of anger and/or sardonic cynicism.

quote:Originally posted by ArmsMerchant:

In one sense, God is NOT necessary. That is, one may live out one's life without knowing god and achieve material success, do good works, and all that stuff. God treats atheits the shae as everyone else--that is, with infinite uncodnitional love and compassion.

I would think it to be a rather uncomfortable situation at some level--even a preconscious one-- since one's mind would always be at odds with one's soul. All the atheists I have known well seemed to be in a constant state of anger and/or sardonic cynicism.

Then you haven't know many athiests. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) Not real ones anyways.

If you don't believe in God, or souls, you won't worry about them, because in your mind they don't exist.

You don't sneak out of your house slowly every morning worried that you might be trampled by a herd of green giraffe dragons. Because you don't think they exist. Just because your neighbor does. Doesn't mean you have to even consider it.

You don't have inner struggles worried that your other personality might disagree with you, or you may upset the queen of the fairies. because you don't believe in it.

Why would an athiest struggle over god and souls? it's just Green Girraffes and queen fairies to them.

You seem to be confusing Athiests with Agnostics.

quote:Originally posted by redzed:



The greeks described God as the Logos, or Reason regarded as the highest, or controlling principle of the Universe. Would it be more usefull to describe God in a more personal sense as the controlling principle of one's life, thoughts and actions?



My point here is in answer to the OP's question "Why does there need to be a god?" If we use the definition of God used by the ancient greeks, it is clear that everyone has/needs/uses a God or "controlling principle" in their lives. Whatever that is: If it's world peace, that's your god; if the controlling principle of one's life is money, that's your god; if it's Love that's your god. What ever the 'controlling principle/god' is, it will determine your actions, experiences and the quality of your life.

Peace http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by easeoflife22:

Why is it apparent the universe didn't come from nothing? Time doesn't exist. Every type of measurement is relative to two or more reference points. There is no evidence supporting that there was nothing before the universe. The only evidence we have, supports that there has always been a universe. Since it's not bound by time, which we created and the universe doesn't have to abide by, why couldn't it just always exist?



Time exists. Man created the measurement of time. Is aging not an example of time's existence? No time means no memories. Those certainly exist.

[This message has been edited by King_Cotton (edited 10-06-2006).]

this is why I am agnostic. while all of you are wasting your futile efforts on something that will never be resolved, i can throw you a quick too long/didnt read and be on my way, doing something productive. koo koo kachoo!

quote:Originally posted by tunamelt:

this is why I am agnostic. while all of you are wasting your futile efforts on something that will never be resolved, i can throw you a quick too long/didnt read and be on my way, doing something productive. koo koo kachoo!

LOL - makes it sound like agnostic is just another term for ignorant! http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif)

Peace http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)