Some background: I was raised in a Catholic family where my main religious involvement was attending Catholic schools and Mass every week. I hated going to church as a kid and did everything I could to avoid it, eventually staging an uprising against my parents in my early teens so that they wouldn't make me go anymore. After that I became pretty areligious for a few years. However, one of the teachers at my high school would spend the entire class discussing religion with us and, to cut a long story short, his incredible ability to present his (flawed) arguments and creationist propaganda was enough to convince me to pursue a more extreme version of Christianity, one that rejected false denominations like Catholicism and embraced a more literalist view of The Bible. I continued to look for more solid arguments for Christianity on the Internet for about a year, hoping to find sustenance for my unstable religious beliefs, but without someone to present them verbally, they seemed kind of weak and I ended up favoring atheism instead based on its superior arguments.

So, like almost everyone here it seems, I'm an atheist. And like almost everyone here, I've experienced some problems/had occasions when professing to be an atheist has/could have caused a measure of . . . awkwardness. The fact is that religion is never going to disappear from my family. My parents are awesome people despite their beliefs. They're pretty liberal, although the fact is that they *won't ever* compromise on their faith. So that means that at Christmas and Easter, a necessary part of our family celebrations involves going to church. It also means that aspects of life like births, deaths and marriages will invariably involve the invocation of Catholicism and Catholic rituals.

Now, since the celebration of such things involves a religious aspect which conflicts with my personal world view, what should I do? Let's say it's Christmas Eve when my family traditionally goes to church. There's choice A of saying, "I don't really want to go to church with you because your bullshit religion conflicts with my beliefs" or choice B of saying, "sure, I'll go to church with you" (even though I think it's a waste of time). My new position is that I say I'm a Catholic by culture because my upbringing was Catholic and therefore so what if I waste a few hours a year participating in Catholic activities? It's a small sacrifice for the outcome of family unity. I know atheists who won't attend any funeral, wedding or religion-related ceremony because they're so zealous in their anti-religiosity . . . or they'll walk out of a room during a prayer.

I just don't see the point in that. Protesting against religion when it affects your civil liberties or government funding makes sense, but not so much in a personal, private setting.

So, what do you think, totse? How do you deal with living in a religious society when it conflicts with your true personal beliefs.

[This message has been edited by Mike Dogg (edited 10-03-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Mike Dogg:

How do you deal with living in a religious society when it conflicts with your true personal beliefs.

I stand alone in defiance. Simple

Personally, I myself would probably go with them etc. One, I hate conflict and so try to blend in in general; two, I have a deep and abiding fondness for Catholicism. I don't know why - I don't believe it at all - but all the rituals etc. are somehow fufilling. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

On the other hand, I'm also lazy and don't like to lie. So actually I guess I wouldn't go? http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif) Do whatever makes you feel best. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Better atheist than protestant.

I agree with the ferret. id go just to avoid conflict, i mean just because you go doesnt mean youve suddenly gone back on your beliefs or anything, youre just trying to keep peace within your family. but thats your decision.

quote:Originally posted by Twisted_Ferret:

Personally, I myself would probably go with them etc. One, I hate conflict and so try to blend in in general; two, I have a deep and abiding fondness for Catholicism. I don't know why - I don't believe it at all - but all the rituals etc. are somehow fufilling. http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

On the other hand, I'm also lazy and don't like to lie. So actually I guess I wouldn't go? http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/confused.gif) Do whatever makes you feel best. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Eh, didn't read the OP, but I find myself oddly, almost always agreeing with ferret.

Like...always..

"wow this guy makes a good point.. wow.. it's ferret again"

So yeah, what he said. /assume

In the end your asking if you should waste a few hours a few days a year to keep your family happy, so i say just go.

On the other hand if going to the services pisses you off so much it actucally hurts not to punch the minister/priest...i would say you should't go.

well as everyone has said... go with your family. I mean no-one in my family has ever been religious, my dad is atheist pretty much, but he doesnt put a lable on it like that... he just reckons religion is a stupid waste of time... but thats beside the point. I am a buddhist and i celebrate christmas and easter purely for the presents and chocolate and such... it sounds bad but i dont mind... go to church, because if you dont your family wont want you to be in their christmas celebrations and therefore NO PRESENTS. so go to the church



sorry if none of that made sense... im extremely tired right now, so much so that im slurring my speach, off to beddybyes for me now

quote:Originally posted by ShouldTrip:

Eh, didn't read the OP, but I find myself oddly, almost always agreeing with ferret.

Like...always..

"wow this guy makes a good point.. wow.. it's ferret again"

So yeah, what he said. /assume

Great minds think alike! http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif) Have you AIM or MSN?

[This message has been edited by Twisted_Ferret (edited 10-04-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Twisted_Ferret:

Originally posted by ShouldTrip:

Eh, didn't read the OP, but I find myself oddly, almost always agreeing with ferret.

Like...always..

"wow this guy makes a good point.. wow.. it's ferret again"

So yeah, what he said. /assume

Great minds think alike! http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif) Have you AIM or MSN?



Sure http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) Enegylop is the one people can contact me on to be added to my main sn. <Aim

Couple questions - first, have you ever attended the Tridentine Mass? Or did you rebel against the Novus Ordo Missae?

Would you consider wearing a Brown Scapular, and saying one Hail Mary a day, to find out whether or not it actually is true? I mean, I could sit here and preach to you all day about how the Catholic Church is True, etc. etc., and how the Pope is the Vicar of Christ, who is the Successor of Peter etc etc. But if you aren't sure within yourself, which is what it sounds like to me, then nothing external will make a difference.

Next, and I say this in a "gentle tone," if you will, meaning I am not trying to scold you or "condemn" you or anything, but it would be wrong to attend the Mass without some (even small) form of devotion/belief in the Real Presence of Christ, in the Sacred Host - it sort of makes a mockery of the whole thing, in a way. The Mass is the unbloody Sacrifice of Our Lord at Calvary - at the very least, if you don't believe that to be true, still I would hope that you understand that WE believe it to be true.

Your comment in regards to "more extreme" versions of Christianity that embraced a more literalist view of the Bible is a little bit misinformed - I would suggest you do more research into how the BIble as we know it came to be. Also, Protestants don't actually read the whole Bible, they have removed several books, which they have labelled "Apocrypha," - this name, which refers to that which is "lost", is incorrect. The correct term is the Deuterocanonical books, but I digress.

Protestant faiths, and many "hard-line" fundamentalist faiths, insist on a strict observance of "The Sabbath," or Sunday. One of the key factors in Luther's apostasy from the Roman Church, was to live with "The Bible as sole teacher," etc. Except that if you read the Bible, you will notice that the Sabbath has NEVER been mentioned as a Sunday - always a Saturday. It was the Church who instated the practice of Sunday worship, and it comes from Catholic Tradition, not the Bible.

Anyway, I would strongly recommend you try the Scapular - at the very least, it won't harm you, and if you truly believe in atheism, all it can do is prove you either right or wrong!

I hope that I have been able to help in any way. If you have more questions, or, anything you would like to discuss, please feel free to email me trichocereus_pachanoi@hushmail.com anytime!

Dominus Vobiscum, brother!

Tri.

[This message has been edited by trichocereus pachanoi (edited 10-04-2006).]

My research would suggest that I attended contemporary Catholic masses in English that were neither 'Novus Ordo' nor 'Tridentine'.

I wouldn't consider wearing a Brown Scapular or saying a Hail Mary a day to find out whether Catholicism is true or not, because my atheism is based on a lack of belief in the supernatural (due to an absence of scientifically verifiable evidence), not a lack of belief in the validity of a particular religious sect. Protestants who produce anti-Catholic propaganda base their rejection of Catholicism on interpretational differences of their holy book, but that is largely irrelevant in my case given that I don't have any concept of God in the first place. So, while they're vociferously arguing that 66 books make a complete Bible, not 72 (or vice versa) or that the King James version is the only infallible source of God's word, I really couldn't care less because I don't accept the original premises that lay the foundation for such debate (i.e. the existence of God and that the Bible was divinely inspired).

Now, if I'm an atheist who doesn't believe in God, it's kind of pointless saying it's disrespectful for me to attend Mass and receive communion just because I don't believe in its traditional Catholic significance. If I go, it's because it promotes unity in my family, especially around holiday times. I wouldn't go if I had no family or if I were otherwise by myself. My brother-in-law has come to Mass with my family at Christmas and Easter without fail ever since he first started dating my sister over 7 years ago. He's not a Catholic and I'd say he's more probably areligious than anything, but he comes because he's a part of our family now and he wants to participate in how we celebrate things. I'd say doing that is anything but disrespectful.

I don't know how my comment in regards to more extreme versions of Christianity is misinformed. By extreme versions of Christianity I mean ones that, for example, absolutely reject all forms of macro-evolution. Even the Pope acknowledges the existence of evolution. Granted, there are aspects of literalism present in Catholicism that are absent in many sects of Protestantism, such as the fact that Catholics believe they are literally consuming the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ, but it is not generally a religion that follows the Bible as literally as others do. Well, really only a tiny minority of them do, otherwise they'd have to stone their children to death for disobedience, but I was fully ready to embrace the Bible as literally as I could when I was a Christian. Fuck being a moderate: either it's true or it isn't when it comes to a text God inspired. Anything less just wouldn't have logically come from an omnipotent God.

As for the observance of the Sabbath . . . well, yes, I know some people who refuse to work on a Saturday and others who absolutely refuse to work on Sundays. Maybe they should stone each other for the violation of their respective day of rest, as called for in the Old Testament.

In closing . . . no evidence = no good reason to believe.

Fair enough, I get where you're coming from. What do you mean when you say that the Mass you attend is neither Novus Ordo nor Tridentine? If it's contemporary, it's Novus Ordo. And, yeah, I do stand by my comments regarding an insincere attendance of Mass to be disrespectful - and especially receiving the Eucharist! But I don't think I explained myself correctly there. For a Catholic, attending Mass isn't simply about going in, sitting down, kneeling, and standing when you have to, and then going home. Nor is it about watching a priest in the same manner as you would watch some sort of show - non-participant. Rather, we "pray" the Mass, with the priest. But - definitely, if it helps with your family relationships for you to attend, by all means, attend! But, if you don't believe in the Real Presence, or if you do believe, but know yourself to be in a state of mortal sin, you should definitely not receive communion. In doing this, also, you set a clear boundary with your family as to where you draw the line, while still showing respect for their beliefs and customs. I guess I must have come across a little aggressive before - I apologise.

My own relationship with my family was pretty bad at times - my father actually had to get a trespass order against me from his property, because the things I was involving myself in were becoming dangerous to our whole family. So, in that, I totally empathise with the fact that you want to go to better your relationship with your family.

I'm not trying to discourage you from going, don't get me wrong. I guess what I'm trying to say is like, for example, my family were Protestant. For me to attend something with them, for them, because of them etc., which was run by their clergy - I don't personally believe it to have any validity, but mindful of the fact that they do, and mindful of the fact that it is not mine to judge who is right and who is wrong, but merely to follow what I know to be True in my heart, I still approach their service with a certain respect, and reverence.

And in regards to the Scapular, it's just something I have found to have helped me, so I thought I might recommend it - I'm not trying to push it on you or anything! Never mind, anyway...

So, yeah, I would say - go to the Mass, but keep in mind, that while you may not believe in anything which is taking place, all those people around you, and your loved ones, do believe in it, and it is Sacred and Precious to them.

In regards to your views on the Church, I would advise that you dig a little deeper. Scratch beneath the surface and you will find that just because people don't go around talking about all these things they do, and things they live by, doesn't mean that they don't do them. Remembering that in the Bible, Christ advises us to pray to God, for God, and not for the praise of fellow men - how would you really know what deep devotions, and massive acts of sacrifice the Christian individual makes throughout their lives? You can't, really.

That's one thing I have noticed - most of the people I have known from other faiths have spoken openly and pridefully about how devout they are. Myself, I am swelled with pride also, and it is something I struggle with daily, but many whom I know, I have seen thingsm and picked up on things about their piety, that have blown me away. And for me to have been able to notice anything, it could obviously only be the tip of the iceberg.

Oh, and BTW, the Pope may have said that animals have the ability to "adapt" to their environments to some degree, but that still don't turn a monkey into man!