What is gained out of this? What does this show us? How is free will free if we have to make one choice, or face eternal damnation?

He's a sado-masochist, that's why. Now drink your coco.

It's not that anything is gained, it's the fact you can't exist in heaven.

You know how some people refer to death as if you're a candleflame rejoining God's huge fire? Well, if you have unresolved sins, your fire can't be added, because it's not the same as the rest.

Hell is not a physical place but rather a state of mind. The absence of joy is hell - IMHO.

If God didn't have a hell, he'd have no place to put the protestants.

quote:Originally posted by Merlinman2005:

It's not that anything is gained, it's the fact you can't exist in heaven.

You know how some people refer to death as if you're a candleflame rejoining God's huge fire? Well, if you have unresolved sins, your fire can't be added, because it's not the same as the rest.

Doesn't answer ANYTHING.

quote:Originally posted by Aseren:

Doesn't answer ANYTHING.

Actually it gets rid of something in the OP.

He asked what's gained.

I said nothing.

damn it wasn't hard to see that ANSWER, bud.

quote:Originally posted by Merlinman2005:

Actually it gets rid of something in the OP.

He asked what's gained.

I said nothing.

damn it wasn't hard to see that ANSWER, bud.

I know, I was a stap further. If you don't gain anything from it, it's pointless. If it's pointless God is imperfect omg I disproved the bible lawl

Pointless according to whom?

Exactly.

It there was a point to it, why would he hide it from us?

Exactly.

quote:Originally posted by Mr. Tree:

What is gained out of this? What does this show us? How is free will free if we have to make one choice, or face eternal damnation?



Nothing's gained.

It shows that you'll have to answer for your actions, or at least face the consequences of them.

Yes, it's free. Choice, like you said. Be "good," or what He'd consider good, or... DAMNATION. Be a reprobate soul, or follow the teachings of this one (out of many) religion.

quote:Originally posted by Aseren:

It there was a point to it, why would he hide it from us?

Exactly.

um

He's God.

The answer to "why" is one that possibly only He knows.

Or one that we already came up with.

If there is a Hell, it's not pointless; it's the eternal life sentence for your spiritual crimes.

fear

If he's perfect there's no harm in sharing what he knows with us. Besides why would someone perfect need a prison anyway. I can think of a better solution then that and I'm just a demi-god.

quote:Originally posted by Mr. Tree:

What is gained out of this? What does this show us? How is free will free if we have to make one choice, or face eternal damnation?

The ego is hell. We choose it everytime we separate ourselves from the truth. The truth does not limit choice, but rather eliminates the ego's attachment to what is chosen. Wants and expectations fall to acceptance and respect.

Why must you make ridiculous arguments against the truth using a man-made religion as the basis? Does admitting you're wrong hurt so much as to continue living in the cycle of pain and pleasure, without happiness?

You're putting conditions on the unconditional - you'd believe if you knew why you should, right? Doesn't the very misery you experience when in absence of that which is true speak for itself? Or do you think chemicals alone dictate your being? YOU...that is, your being, dictates what goes on in the doll you inhabit right now. The thing is...you're not making choices without accepting YOU - you're living pleasure and pain; trying to avoid pain and trying to seek pleasure. You do nothing else, yet you want more. Quit hiding the truth from yourself and you'll see the void isn't even there.

I'm not telling you to believe in god; quite the contrary, I'm asking you to believe nothing, but have faith instead. A belief is a thought that works within the very cycle of misery that is avoiding pain and seeking pleasure. Faith is the ability to see that the void is false, that it has always been full, and will always be full.

The eternal doesn't watch us, nor judge us, nor control us, nor did it create hell: we did. We choose it over truth, and that is why we experience it.

quote:Originally posted by Aseren:

It there was a point to it, why would he hide it from us?

Exactly.

We hide it from our self.

quote:Originally posted by Merlinman2005:

um

He's God.

The answer to "why" is one that possibly only He knows.

Or one that we already came up with.

If there is a Hell, it's not pointless; it's the eternal life sentence for your spiritual crimes.

fear

Spiritual crimes? Hell exists, and it's not a punishment, it's a choice. It's a way of life. Just as heaven is a way of life. Hell is ignorance of the truth - if you see flaws in perfection and try to fix them, you're going to fail and be miserable. Heaven is the truth - you see perfection working in everything, thus accept and respect, finding peace and completion.

1. Define perfection.

2. I’m tired of you assholes who say hell is our choice and not a punishment. I don’t know what bible you guys are reading, or if you are even reading the bible and not just making up your own kooky shit. But, basically, hell is a gun pointed at your head. It’s god saying “I make the rules motherfucker, now you have a choice, do what I say or I’ll blow your fucking brains out” and then when you don’t do as he says, even if you have good moral reasons, he’ll blame you and act the innocent. In short, he’s an asshole.

3. Faith is ignorance, and no matter how hard you try to convince yourself otherwise, with no evidence to back up your claims, it will always be ignorance. Enjoy being blind, asshole.



[This message has been edited by Raw_Power (edited 10-09-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Raw_Power:

1. Define perfection.

2. I’m tired of you assholes who say hell is our choice and not a punishment. I don’t know what bible you guys are reading, or if you are even reading the bible and not just making up your own kooky shit. But, basically, hell is a gun pointed at your head. It’s god saying “I make the rules motherfucker, now you have a choice, do what I say or I’ll blow your fucking brains out” and then when you don’t do as he says, even if you have good moral reasons, he’ll blame you and act the innocent. In short, he’s an asshole.

3. Faith is ignorance, and no matter how hard you try to convince yourself otherwise, with no evidence to back up your claims, it will always be ignorance. Enjoy being blind, asshole.





Do you understand the difference between man-made fabrications and truth? You are the one that is blind.

Die and come back. Tell me what happened. I'd like to see what you think of the truth when you have no means of hiding it - when your heart, mind, and body no longer exist...you still do. You can't run from yourself when you have nowhere to go. Faith isn't ignorance...if you think that, then you think faith is believing a god will make everything all right and 'saves' you, or probably some other man-made nonsense that's meant to loosely imitate the truth while still letting you run away.

1. You know what perfection is. Quit playing games. You know as well as any other that the word we created to imitate the truth isn't the truth. I'm just wondering why you won't admit it.

2. So, even though I know you won't be judged, punished, persecuted or robbed by walking out of hell; you think it's a gun being pointed at your head, telling you to believe something? Quit using religions as an excuse to ignore the truth. Man runs...all of us do...every last creation of ours has been an attempt to fill a void we've imagined. It isn't real. There is no void. Hell is thinking that there is a void - you're imagining a problem when there is nothing lacking. You live then you die. Where's the fucking gun at your head? Damn man, quit making excuses...your fear, your anger, your sorrow, even your joy; all of them excuses. They are there, but they're not to fill the void, they're not to use to run. They're there to experience and accept - there is NO void to fill. Leave your hell, for fuck's sake.

3. I suppose that's why I'm sooooooo uneducated and blindly following the religous masses. http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif) Just so ya know, I don't pay taxes, don't support the government, I don't go to church/temple/whatever, I don't tithe, I'm anti-war, and I'm anti-religion. I'm not a sheeple, if that's what you think. I was before I quit running though - I blindly followed the same bullshit you do right now. And dude, you're complete over-reaction to something you percieve as an OPINION is the evidence you're looking for. Grow up, child. You're still just a seed, and you won't even grow because you won't accept that your very existence is all the evidence you're given and need.

Have fun thinking I'm weak and blind. Everyone stops running eventually...you'll see then that religions and their dogmas have nothing to do with the truth.

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

We hide it from our self.

No, I really don't.

quote:Originally posted by Aseren:

No, I really don't.

Let me ask you three questions, to see if you are hiding it:

1. What are you?

2. Who are you?

3. Where are you?

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

Spiritual crimes? Hell exists, and it's not a punishment, it's a choice. It's a way of life. Just as heaven is a way of life. Hell is ignorance of the truth - if you see flaws in perfection and try to fix them, you're going to fail and be miserable. Heaven is the truth - you see perfection working in everything, thus accept and respect, finding peace and completion.



I didn't say hell was a punishment.

The errors in your soul force you to go there. It's not for repentance or to make you better afterwards, it's supposedly for natural reasons you go there.

Hell is the last stop. Choose while you're living whether you wanna get off (of whatever metaphor) before you reach it.

quote:Originally posted by Merlinman2005:



I didn't say hell was a punishment.

The errors in your soul force you to go there. It's not for repentance or to make you better afterwards, it's supposedly for natural reasons you go there.

Hell is the last stop. Choose while you're living whether you wanna get off (of whatever metaphor) before you reach it.

Hehe, errors. They don't exist.

quote:Originally posted by 1E-:

Hell is not a physical place but rather a state of mind. The absence of joy is hell - IMHO.



I thought Hell in that metaphorical sense was the absense of God's love and thusly it's light and warmth? That's why in most paintings Hell is portrayed as a blue (cold) place.

Yeah, there is no afterlife and no god, and you're a pseudo-troll hex. Seriously, you're a troll.

quote:Originally posted by Raw_Power:

I don’t know what bible you guys are reading, or if you are even reading the bible and not just making up your own kooky shit. But, basically, hell is a gun pointed at your head. It’s god saying “I make the rules motherfucker, now you have a choice, do what I say or I’ll blow your fucking brains out” and then when you don’t do as he says, even if you have good moral reasons, he’ll blame you and act the innocent. In short, he’s an asshole.





Dunno... are you a genuine seeker of truth or not? As for what the bible says there is much disagreement about that, the church I grew up in did not believe in hell at all and used lots of bible references to 'prove' their point of view and 'disprove' others.

If you are seeking try this link:

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research14.html

If you scroll towards the bottom there is a comparison of the bible verses used in support of hell and those that militate against it.

Peace http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

without absolute evil, there is nothing which to define absolute good by.

If good has no antithesis, then good is just the norm. there is nothing to judge your actions by.

By having the existence of evil, it forces you to make you use your god-given freewill to choose between being a good person, or an evil one....or ending up somewhere inbetween.

It relates to the whole yin-yang thing....

or for star wars geeks, without the dark side the jedi's wouldn't be significant....

Law vs chaos

love vs hate

etc....

quote:Originally posted by Raw_Power:

Yeah, there is no afterlife and no god, and you're a pseudo-troll hex. Seriously, you're a troll.

I'm not a troll. I'm just typing a few bits of truth and YOU are choosing to get all worked up over what *I* put faith into.

quote:Originally posted by chickenpoop:

without absolute evil, there is nothing which to define absolute good by.

If good has no antithesis, then good is just the norm. there is nothing to judge your actions by.

By having the existence of evil, it forces you to make you use your god-given freewill to choose between being a good person, or an evil one....or ending up somewhere inbetween.

It relates to the whole yin-yang thing....

or for star wars geeks, without the dark side the jedi's wouldn't be significant....

Law vs chaos

love vs hate

etc....

Very true. Absolutes don't exist though. If the collective decided to change what is good and what is evil, it would be changed in a heartbeat. Problem is, even just the human part of the collective is divided into roughly 7 billion. It's pretty hard to make a solid change when you need that many people to accept it as real.

quote:Originally posted by Raw_Power:

2. I’m tired of you assholes who say hell is our choice and not a punishment. I don’t know what bible you guys are reading, or if you are even reading the bible and not just making up your own kooky shit. But, basically, hell is a gun pointed at your head. It’s god saying “I make the rules motherfucker, now you have a choice, do what I say or I’ll blow your fucking brains out” and then when you don’t do as he says, even if you have good moral reasons, he’ll blame you and act the innocent. In short, he’s an asshole.





You just stated a choice: obey or go to hell. Of course it's a punishment, but it's a self-inflicted punishment.

quote:Originally posted by King_Cotton:



You just stated a choice: obey or go to hell. Of course it's a punishment, but it's a self-inflicted punishment.

Obey or go to hell...where the fuck does the Bible say that?

In Judaism and Christianity:

OT - Physical obedience was required: punishment for otherwise was the grave.

NT - Acceptance of self, others, and the eternal: punishment is torment at the hands of failed expectations and efforts and inability to let them go (aka clawing and gnashing of teeth, aka hell)

OT is the physical for a nation of those who already had the spiritual; NT is the spiritual for those without it, and no requirements for the physical.

quote:Originally posted by King_Cotton:



You just stated a choice: obey or go to hell. Of course it's a punishment, but it's a self-inflicted punishment.

Except it's not so clear. I wasn't even aware that I had to make a choice, for instance, or that Christianity was the only valid answer.

quote:Originally posted by Frontier Psychiatrist:

I thought Hell in that metaphorical sense was the absense of God's love and thusly it's light and warmth? That's why in most paintings Hell is portrayed as a blue (cold) place.

That's certainly not the Christian hell, though, even metaphorically. It's always described in the NT as being hot, burning, full of flames, etc.

Edit: Although, in the OT, Sheol is described as cold and lightless... but the theologians around here claim that Sheol and Hell are two different places.

[This message has been edited by Twisted_Ferret (edited 10-11-2006).]

Even if heaven existed, why would you want to go there? Who really wants eternal perfection? Just think about it. The very concept is against human nature. What is there to be curious about if you know everything? What is there to learn and explore? How can you better yourself if your already perfect?

People try to make their lives meaningful by believing some crackpot religion in order to gain perfection. But it is the journey not the goal that is important. We should strive all our lives for perfection, but we never really want to reach it. We merely want the challenge.

What is the point in living forever in a perfect world if everything is perfect. There would be nothing left to do.

Personally I'd be bored to death.

You wouldn't be living there as you are here

You lose something

individuality, i think

free will, almost certain

curiosity, yeah

your time is spent basking in the glory of god and praising him

not really socializing or exploring or anything like that

So whos willing to lose their individuality, free will, and curiosity.

Ok line up, eternal life in exchange for your humanity.

The Christian answer to why hell exists is:

a person who sins at least once, no matter what that sin is, deserves to suffer horribly for all eternity.

The end.

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

Obey or go to hell...where the fuck does the Bible say that?

In Judaism and Christianity:

OT - Physical obedience was required: punishment for otherwise was the grave.

NT - Acceptance of self, others, and the eternal: punishment is torment at the hands of failed expectations and efforts and inability to let them go (aka clawing and gnashing of teeth, aka hell)

OT is the physical for a nation of those who already had the spiritual; NT is the spiritual for those without it, and no requirements for the physical.

I never said the Bible said that, I was just showing him the contradictions of his statements.

quote:Originally posted by Clarphimous:

The Christian answer to why hell exists is:

a person who sins at least once, no matter what that sin is, deserves to suffer horribly for all eternity.

The end.

That's the commonly understood "Christian" dark ages Roman Catholic Version, other christian religions focus differently, many do not believe in any hell or afterlife state of eternal punishment.

IMHO if one goes to the bible looking to pick holes in it or to use it as a means of exercising control, that is what you will find. Evidence -- the fashion in which texts are taken 'out of context', often collated with other 'out-of-context' verses and used to support fearsome and/or ignorant non-sensical ideas.

A positive mindest of truthful seeking would not use verses like Jesus "bringing a sword" out of context. Believing and non-believing scholars of the Jesus Seminar agree that "sword" statement was a metaphor used in a parable about family disputes. Why does not the skeptic quote the biblical verses such as "those who live by the sword shall die by the sword" or other sections such as the nature of Love found in 1Corinthians chapter 13?

Why is it those who label themselves as atheist/agnostic seem only to focus on the negatives of the bible? Are you doing the same as the reviled religions? Are you too taking things out of context to support your ego's vested interests?

BTW it would seem I'm closest to Pagan belief, not a Pagan tho, prefer the philisophical works of modern physicists, scientists, health professionals, brain researchers and other positive thinking minds http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

Peace http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

The point is not that there are no good statements in the bible. The point is that if the bible is truly the word of a god there should not be ANY negative parts in it at all. And if was written by men who misinterpreted their god then how do you know which parts are right and which are wrong. Either the whole thing is true or its all unsubstantiated crap. You can’t translate one passage literally and tell me the next is just a metaphor.

Following the basic moral and ethical concepts of the bible without all the other crap thrown in does not require any god belief at all. These are not ideals of Christians they are basic human ethics that existed long before and after the writing of the bible. People shouldn't be good people because a book told them to, they should be good people because they want to.

Why is it those who label themselves as atheist/agnostic seem only to focus on the negatives of the bible? Are you doing the same as the reviled religions? Are you too taking things out of context to support your ego's vested interests?

I less than three you.

quote:Originally posted by redzed:

Why is it those who label themselves as atheist/agnostic seem only to focus on the negatives of the bible?

Because it is not supposed to be merely good, but perfect. Any negatives at all contradict several verses, and throw the rest into doubt.

quote:Originally posted by Twisted_Ferret:

Because it is not supposed to be merely good, but perfect. Any negatives at all contradict several verses, and throw the rest into doubt.

That's assuming that negatives exist, and that positives exist.

Death? For some it is peace, for others it is a source of fear, for some it is frightening, for some it is looked forward to. For some it is a new beginning, for others it is the final end.

Murder? For some it is mercy, for some a must, for some a vain attempt at ultimate control.

Life? For some it is pain, some pleasure, some joy, some sorrow, some change, some statis, some a means of reaching death.

Birth? For some it is a great thing, for others it is a ruiner of worlds, for others it is entrance into hell, for others it is entrance into heaven.

The Bible, as are all religions, are humanity's attempts to get others to understand the depth of their ignorance so that they too may show mercy upon others no matter what their 'wrongs' are. None of us know, thus none should judge; none should judge even those who do judge. It truly is a message of mercy - contained within are stories of so many people trying to define what God wants and ultimately they do nothing but harm themselves and those around them. The only four within the Bible that didn't do such are Moses, Solomon, John the B, and JC.

Moses did what came to him, and while some physical pain was there for himself and his people, he led a people into a land that will supposedly be theirs until the 'harvest': He was Humility.

Solomon asked for wisdom, and thus did only what came to him and his nation flourished under him until he decided to seek out his own desire and created misery for himself. He made things right and was freed from his misery: He was Ammends.

John the B did only what came to him with no ulterior motives: He was Acceptance.

JC did only what came to him, which was supposedly not the struggle, but mercy, love, and grace: He was Sharing.

Look at the book as a description of 'living in the moment' and what is necessary to maintain that life-view. Whether you want to call that truth the word of a god or not is up to you - but it is most definitely an accurate take on how to live an enjoyable life.

The idea of christian hell is illogical... if God is everything then how can you be apart from him? This is where hardcore christianity starts to lose me, in it's supernatural paradoxes. I've seen the idea presented that the devil is at the same time part of and apart of God, that God uses him to test humanity but it is entirely human beings and the devil himself that create sin so he is free of the evil that the devil/humanity creates. This makes no sense when you think about it.

There is no such thing as good or evil to God. If there is a hell it is either metaphorical or a place where your ego chooses to go after death before it is reincarnated again. Reincarnation might or might not be a metaphor as well. I subscribe to buddhist notions and it isn't my place to even guess through bullshitting in a messagebored. A fascinating idea to meditate on though.

quote:Originally posted by psuedogunslinger:

The idea of christian hell is illogical... if God is everything then how can you be apart from him? This is where hardcore christianity starts to lose me, in it's supernatural paradoxes. I've seen the idea presented that the devil is at the same time part of and apart of God, that God uses him to test humanity but it is entirely human beings and the devil himself that create sin so he is free of the evil that the devil/humanity creates. This makes no sense when you think about it.

There is no such thing as good or evil to God. If there is a hell it is either metaphorical or a place where your ego chooses to go after death before it is reincarnated again. Reincarnation might or might not be a metaphor as well. I subscribe to buddhist notions and it isn't my place to even guess through bullshitting in a messagebored. A fascinating idea to meditate on though.

Alpha/Omega Dark/Light Good/Evil...fundies go against the fundamentals. Especially the 'Vengeance is mine' and 'Judgement is reserved for god'.

quote:Originally posted by psuedogunslinger:

The idea of christian hell is illogical... if God is everything then how can you be apart from him?

Exactly. If God is omnipresent and omnibenevolent, how can hell (a place without God) exist?

ROFL! this thread cracks me up... i feel like im 10 and im at sunday school.

im an athiest, but i'll tell you why there is hell... the same reason the boogie monster exists. to perpetuate fear. people arent god fearing, people are hell fearing. there is no punishment god cannot deliver which hell can.

but if you're a christian and you wanna defend youself, you might want to say something like this:

god did not create hell, the fallen angel did, god simply allowed it because it was neccessary for his plan.

or maybe something like this:

god works in mysterious ways.

both incredibly convicing arguments i think... if you've made the assumption god exists, ie if you're a fool.

One last thing for this thread: Revelations...does anybody else think the massive contradictions and predictive nature, despite earlier passages claiming that no man will know the time or circumstances of judgement, believe it to be placed by the Church in an attempt to distort the purpose of the Bible from mercy to fear?

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

One last thing for this thread: Revelations...does anybody else think the massive contradictions and predictive nature, despite earlier passages claiming that no man will know the time or circumstances of judgement, believe it to be placed by the Church in an attempt to distort the purpose of the Bible from mercy to fear?

No, not at all, the problems come from theologians trying to interpret a story that reads like an OBE(Ch.4) as a literal prophecy. Check out Edgar Cayce's book on Revelation for a good example of what it might mean read as metaphor, or look at the Essene book of Revelation and wonder how similar but how different?

Historically "The Church" has many errors to it's account, why should one expect they teach correctly in regard to the meanings of Revelation - or any of the remainder of the bible, or anything at all?

Peace http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Mr. Tree:

Why would God let there be a hell?

BECAUSE GOD IS A FAGGOT!

ROFL,

God is so gay.

fuck your roffle (rofl), that wasn't even the tiniest but funny

It was funny because it offended you.

wrong

try again

it was stupid

that's why

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

Spiritual crimes? Hell exists, and it's not a punishment, it's a choice. It's a way of life. Just as heaven is a way of life. Hell is ignorance of the truth - if you see flaws in perfection and try to fix them, you're going to fail and be miserable. Heaven is the truth - you see perfection working in everything, thus accept and respect, finding peace and completion.

I stopped reading after this post, so it might've already been said, but Hell is not the ignorance of truth. It's the rejection of truth. You can't be held accountable if you're never been able to understand. If you can look up and realise something created this, but you rejected the teachings of Christ, then you are held accountable for your sins, unforgiven, and placed in Hell. God still loves you, you just didn't do as he asked, so you're paying the ultimate consequence.

Because like every other fucker he needs people he can look down on.

Without evil teh wud be no good etc etc etc.

What would be the point of heaven if there wasn't a chance of hell?

quote:Originally posted by redzed:

That's the commonly understood "Christian" dark ages Roman Catholic Version, other christian religions focus differently, many do not believe in any hell or afterlife state of eternal punishment.

IMHO if one goes to the bible looking to pick holes in it or to use it as a means of exercising control, that is what you will find. Evidence -- the fashion in which texts are taken 'out of context', often collated with other 'out-of-context' verses and used to support fearsome and/or ignorant non-sensical ideas.

A positive mindest of truthful seeking would not use verses like Jesus "bringing a sword" out of context. Believing and non-believing scholars of the Jesus Seminar agree that "sword" statement was a metaphor used in a parable about family disputes. Why does not the skeptic quote the biblical verses such as "those who live by the sword shall die by the sword" or other sections such as the nature of Love found in 1Corinthians chapter 13?

Why is it those who label themselves as atheist/agnostic seem only to focus on the negatives of the bible? Are you doing the same as the reviled religions? Are you too taking things out of context to support your ego's vested interests?

BTW it would seem I'm closest to Pagan belief, not a Pagan tho, prefer the philisophical works of modern physicists, scientists, health professionals, brain researchers and other positive thinking minds http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

Peace http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)



I'm not focusing on the negative aspects of the Bible, here. I'm focusing on what Protestant Christians actually believe. The majority believe that:

<OL TYPE=1>

<LI>God is good and just, as well as all-powerful

<LI>A person can only go to heaven if they are free of sin

<LI>All people sin, and fall short of being worthy of living in heaven with God

<LI>It is only by God's grace and sacrifice of his son that people can be forgiven of their sins and go to heaven

<LI>If a person cannot go to heaven after their life on earth ends, they will go to hell for all eternity

</OL>

From these assumptions, it can be concluded that all who do not go to heaven are deserving of this. And because the only alternative God gives to heaven is hell, then they must be deserving of this specific outcome as well.

A common objection is that people choose whether or not to accept salvation. However, as was already stated, salvation is just God's grace, and people already deserve to go to hell for sin even if they didn't have this option.

And so if hell is a bad place like most Christians say... a person who sins at least once, no matter what that sin is, deserves to suffer horribly for all eternity.

[This message has been edited by Clarphimous (edited 10-16-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Masero:

I stopped reading after this post, so it might've already been said, but Hell is not the ignorance of truth. It's the rejection of truth. You can't be held accountable if you're never been able to understand. If you can look up and realise something created this, but you rejected the teachings of Christ, then you are held accountable for your sins, unforgiven, and placed in Hell. God still loves you, you just didn't do as he asked, so you're paying the ultimate consequence.

Humans, no matter what they BELIEVE, are completely agnostic. Why, oh why, would the Father, understanding the depth of doubt and ignorance present in his children, hold it against them for all eternity when it's a total shitfest of confusion on this world? "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do." Even ignorance and rejection are forgiven.

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

Humans, no matter what they BELIEVE, are completely agnostic. Why, oh why, would the Father, understanding the depth of doubt and ignorance present in his children, hold it against them for all eternity when it's a total shitfest of confusion on this world? "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do." Even ignorance and rejection are forgiven.

Of course they're forgiven, but I was saying, Hell is NOT ignorance of truth, it's rejection of Truth. The Bible says that everyone will have a chance to understand before the tribulations come back. The exceptions, of course, would be mentally inept, such as children, mentally challenged. Technically, you could say that since you can see nature and comprehend it, you can realise there is a God. There was a tribe in Africa that had no connection to the outside world, but when missionaries found it, they already had stuff about a son of God coming down and dying and rising again before they ever were discovered.

So, Hell isn't ignorance of truth, it's sheer rejection. The "unforgiveable sin", blasphemy, in essence, is really just you choosing not to accept God's love and (unknowingly or knowingly) accept eternal damnation.

^It's still ignorance in the end, anyone that knows for sure God is the truth, would accept it, just for the fact that noone wants to burn for all eternity.

quote:Originally posted by Masero:

(unknowingly or knowingly)

"lol you didn't even know you were rejecting me, but too bad, off to hell you go!"

quote:Originally posted by Masero:

Technically, you could say that since you can see nature and comprehend it, you can realise there is a God. There was a tribe in Africa that had no connection to the outside world, but when missionaries found it, they already had stuff about a son of God coming down and dying and rising again before they ever were discovered.

1.) What tribe was this?

2.) Please explain to me how nature tells me that there is a male human child of God who died then was resurrected, and that I need to accept him as my savior to go to this place called heaven and avoid this place called hell.

3.) Why bother sending missionaries if you're expected to just be able to look at nature and see God? You're giving some people a HUGE advantage over others.

You don't have to answer. I know why: because it's fucking ridiculous to expect people to be able to reason out an entire theology from looking at nature. There are thousands of religions, in thousands of cultures, all with different explanations for nature than Christian; all of those people failed to Find God. What a success rate.

I didnt feel like reading everything. but here is my two cents.

God gave us people free will. Why? God loves us so much that he will give us the power to turn away from him if that is what we choose. going to hell is our choice, not his. purgatory is there to cleanse us of our sins before we go to be with Him.

BTW i like the whole thing with the candle

quote:Originally posted by faze2:

I didnt feel like reading everything. but here is my two cents.

God gave us people free will. Why? God loves us so much that he will give us the power to turn away from him if that is what we choose. going to hell is our choice, not his. purgatory is there to cleanse us of our sins before we go to be with Him.

BTW i like the whole thing with the candle

That dosen't sound like love, that sounds like sadism. Read the other posts in this thread, logically the christian God is an illogical paradox. This says less about God's power and more about christian dogma and how you're all just regurgitating what your hear from church/preachers/fundies etc. I've rarely seen a christian that goes hardcore by the bible that uses his own brain, she just repeates whatever sounds good to reafirm what he/she already believes.

quote:Originally posted by faze2:

I didnt feel like reading everything. but here is my two cents.

God gave us people free will. Why? God loves us so much that he will give us the power to turn away from him if that is what we choose. going to hell is our choice, not his. purgatory is there to cleanse us of our sins before we go to be with Him.

You should read up on: "Omniscience". http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

Seriously, what you're saying makes no sense at all.

[This message has been edited by Aseren (edited 10-18-2006).]

I will debunk God in the following sentance:

Why would God create a soul he knows will end up in hell?

quote:Originally posted by Raw_Power:

Yeah, there is no afterlife and no god, and you're a pseudo-troll hex. Seriously, you're a troll.

QFT.. supposedly having died and then been revived doesnt make yuor shit logic infallible

Hell was never intended for man. Sin separates God from man. God sent His precious, Holy Child, The Lord, Jesus Christ, to die on the cross for the sins of man, so they might be saved. God couldn't satisfy Himself without having sent the Lord Jesus. God is Love, and His desire is for ALL to come to KNOW LOVE through the Lord, Jesus Christ. Thus, giving mankind a decision. Christ will not even come back, until the Gospel is preached, first, to all nations. Why? He wants everyone to know that He's made a way. It's the good new, it's the gospel. In fact God doesn't want anyone to perish, but God Himself can not choose for You. His gifts and callings are without repentence, and He doesn't revoke them. He's given you the gift of decision. You choose to love Him, or not. He's a gentlemen. He's not going to force you to do something you don't want to do. God loves you, and He sent His son to die on the cross for your sins, so that He could be with YOU, but do YOU love God? Do YOU accept HIS gift to YOU? You don't have to accept it. Some have accepted it, and never opened it. Some have accepted it, and used it. Some constantly deny His gift, after it being offered more than once. Consider yourself fortunate to have heard the Message of the Gospel (Good News), more than once. There are some, so hungry for the good news, and having never heard it. Third World Countries, hungry for God, and don't know that God loved them, first, and sent His only begotten son to die for them so that He could be with them. Then you have America, having heard the gospel, and sent people to the nations in times past, who've lost focus of what's important. Jesus said, "GO INTO THE WORLD AND PREACH THE GOSPEL TO EVERY CREATURE." However, we're too content debating our religious beliefs to consider the dying souls. What happened to compassion? What happened to seeking the Kingdom of God, FIRST. What happened to SPREADING the MESSAGE of the Kingdom of God? We're all going to be judged according to the call that's been placed on our life. God wouldn't tell us to do something if He didn't supply a way for us to do it. Some of us BEG for the Power of God to be in effect within the Church, ignorant to the fact that it is lying dormat within themselves.

Seriously, man. These so called "christians" today follow nothing from jesus' teachings. I seriously doubt jesus insulted people who didn't believe him and I have the feeling he didn't say

" I am the way and the light" and then tacked on "and if you don't believe me you're going to hell."

quote:Originally posted by Merlinman2005:

It's not that anything is gained, it's the fact you can't exist in heaven.

You know how some people refer to death as if you're a candleflame rejoining God's huge fire? Well, if you have unresolved sins, your fire can't be added, because it's not the same as the rest.

BECAUSE IT'S NOT THE SAME AS THE REST

lol.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

Hell was never intended for man. Sin separates God from man. God sent His precious, Holy Child, The Lord, Jesus Christ, to die on the cross for the sins of man, so they might be saved. God couldn't satisfy Himself without having sent the Lord Jesus. God is Love, and His desire is for ALL to come to KNOW LOVE through the Lord, Jesus Christ. Thus, giving mankind a decision. Christ will not even come back, until the Gospel is preached, first, to all nations. Why? He wants everyone to know that He's made a way. It's the good new, it's the gospel. In fact God doesn't want anyone to perish, but God Himself can not choose for You. His gifts and callings are without repentence, and He doesn't revoke them. He's given you the gift of decision. You choose to love Him, or not. He's a gentlemen. He's not going to force you to do something you don't want to do. God loves you, and He sent His son to die on the cross for your sins, so that He could be with YOU, but do YOU love God? Do YOU accept HIS gift to YOU? You don't have to accept it. Some have accepted it, and never opened it. Some have accepted it, and used it. Some constantly deny His gift, after it being offered more than once. Consider yourself fortunate to have heard the Message of the Gospel (Good News), more than once. There are some, so hungry for the good news, and having never heard it. Third World Countries, hungry for God, and don't know that God loved them, first, and sent His only begotten son to die for them so that He could be with them. Then you have America, having heard the gospel, and sent people to the nations in times past, who've lost focus of what's important. Jesus said, "GO INTO THE WORLD AND PREACH THE GOSPEL TO EVERY CREATURE." However, we're too content debating our religious beliefs to consider the dying souls. What happened to compassion? What happened to seeking the Kingdom of God, FIRST. What happened to SPREADING the MESSAGE of the Kingdom of God? We're all going to be judged according to the call that's been placed on our life. God wouldn't tell us to do something if He didn't supply a way for us to do it. Some of us BEG for the Power of God to be in effect within the Church, ignorant to the fact that it is lying dormat within themselves.

Stfu, &

quote:Originally posted by Androx:

I will debunk God in the following sentance:

Why would God create a soul he knows will end up in hell?

quote:Originally posted by Innoculation Scars:

BECAUSE IT'S NOT THE SAME AS THE REST

lol.

k then...

quote:Originally posted by Aseren:

Stfu, &

Originally posted by Androx:

I will debunk God in the following sentance:

Why would God create a soul he knows will end up in hell?

Dont worry, HellzShellz is one of those people that blindly beleive in God. Hopefully one day she will realize her false beleifs, or she will be damn disappointed when there is no afterlife.

cartoon metaphor:

earth is God's doodle-pad. it's where he does everything that might conceivably happen and chooses what he likes and what he doesn't like. so far, he's been pretty consistant about letting people do what they like, even if that means fucking with him (stories of God telling serial murderers 'no, stop this' are few and far between, but still do exist). he just creates the situation, we act it all out.

heaven is where the gallery... like a bank vault, almost- where he stores all the vital shit for making a cartoon with a special character. he's got everything refined there, nothing needs fixing like it does on eart.

hell is God's garbage can. he puts shit there that just pisses him off.

and remember, just because he's a perfect god and made you in his image doesn't mean he made YOU to be perfect.

ALL of humanity was going to hell, but God, as gracious as HE is, He made a way so that we could be with Him. God created YOU, and put YOU here, and made the way for YOU to come to HIM through Jesus the Christ. His son. YOU decide. God gave you FREEWILL.

quote:Originally posted by HellzShellz:

ALL of humanity was going to hell, but God, as gracious as HE is, He made a way so that we could be with Him. God created YOU, and put YOU here, and made the way for YOU to come to HIM through Jesus the Christ. His son. YOU decide. God gave you FREEWILL.

God put a fucking gun to your head and said "Hey, boy, now you're going to do as I say or I'll shoot you! But don't blame me if you get shot! I gave you FREE FUCKIN WILL! Now, do as I say or I'll fuckin' shoot you and it'll be your own god damn motherfuckin' fault! I am the LORD, do as I say or I'll cry, gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah"