Which means you can never know if what you are doing is right or wrong.

No objective truths or no objective morals? Saying that without God there is no objective truths is incredibly stupid. Saying that without God there is no objective ethics is up to debate.

Yes I meant morals thank you.

quote:Originally posted by w33d:

Which means you can never know if what you are doing is right or wrong.

What's your point?

Which God, homie? Depending on the religion "right and wrong" varies. You may be "right" in one sense but "wrong" in another.

Even with God, all morals would be subjective. As God supposedly defines morality, that would make it entirely subjective to his will (it just wouldn't seem subjective to you, becuase you're his petty, insignificant follower).

If there is no god we define our own objective truths.

Edit: and if you ever read the bible you'd know that god doesn't actually "define" many "truths".

Cheers,

Lost

[This message has been edited by LostCause (edited 10-09-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by w33d:

Which means you can never know if what you are doing is right or wrong.

And following what a book tells you of the eternal is any better than coming to your own false conclusions? Atleast those who go on their own are looking for the truth. They'll find it before anyone with an attachment to a book full of words will.

quote:Originally posted by LostCause:

If there is no god we define our own objective truths.

Edit: and if you ever read the bible you'd know that god doesn't actually "define" many "truths".

Cheers,

Lost



All things in existence define the same objective truth: Perfect.

When you fully understand that, congratulations on reaching enlightenment. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

quote:Originally posted by LostCause:

If there is no god we define our own objective truths.

Edit: and if you ever read the bible you'd know that god doesn't actually "define" many "truths".

Cheers,

Lost



I do know, that's why I like the bible so much. 850 pages and basically only 2 points.

Love one another as God has loved you.

Love your neighbor as yourself.

quote:Originally posted by w33d:

I do know, that's why I like the bible so much. 850 pages and basically only 2 points.

Love one another as God has loved you.

Love your neighbor as yourself.

Wow, I can tell you haven't read the Bible, or at least haven't read it thoroughly.

quote:Originally posted by w33d:

I do know, that's why I like the bible so much. 850 pages and basically only 2 points.

Love one another as God has loved you.

Love your neighbor as yourself.

You cannot love one another as God has supposedly loved you though. So you fail on that point. Do you like belonging to a religion where you can't even begin to satisfy your God's wants?

quote:Originally posted by readyroger:

You cannot love one another as God has supposedly loved you though. So you fail on that point. Do you like belonging to a religion where you can't even begin to satisfy your God's wants?

What do you mean? I don't think you even know what you are talking about. God's love for us is a complete, self-sacrificing love. That means loving with all of our hearts, minds and bodies, and to be willing to die to save others.

For example the Amish sisters who asked to be killed first in order to make time for the other girls in the school shooting in Pennsylvania. Those kids were 13 and 11 and they did what you say is impossible so I think your claim is baseless.

quote:Originally posted by Twisted_Ferret:



Wow, I can tell you haven't read the Bible, or at least haven't read it thoroughly.

Really, I guess you missed the part of the Bible where Jesus explains that that is the point...

[This message has been edited by w33d (edited 10-10-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by w33d:

Which means you can never know if what you are doing is right or wrong.

Define "right and wrong".

quote:Originally posted by w33d:

Really, I guess you missed the part of the Bible where Jesus explains that that is the point...



And I guess you missed countless parts like this :

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

and of course Jesus has no problem with that :

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to FULFILL them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law UNTIL all is ACCOMPLISHED.

(Mat 5:17-18)

Now, did you really read the Bible or just the parts that sound good?

quote:Originally posted by w33d:

Which means you can never know if what you are doing is right or wrong.

So with God you automotically do? Or maybe you meant to say that without God there is no objective truth, and with God there is no objective truth.

OED

Without the christian ideas of right and wrong, or ANY religion's idea of right and wrong, then you can pretty much do whatever you want without worrying about a silly ghost that will punish you forever when you die.

Doing whatever we want is all fine , butwe all know there are far to many assholes out there, they will cause so much chaos!

world would be a disaster without some sort of religion.

i just follow what my religion teaches me

'Love everyone but trust few"

quote:Originally posted by Frost:

Doing whatever we want is all fine , butwe all know there are far to many assholes out there, they will cause so much chaos!

world would be a disaster without some sort of religion.

i just follow what my religion teaches me

'Love everyone but trust few"

Thats why we have the police...

So religion is why the world has

been in such a good way for all

of recorded history?

All the bad things you think would

happen without religion-

is it just your religion that

makes you not want that shit?

quote:Originally posted by elfstone:

And I guess you missed countless parts like this :

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

and of course Jesus has no problem with that :

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to FULFILL them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law UNTIL all is ACCOMPLISHED.

(Mat 5:17-18)

Now, did you really read the Bible or just the parts that sound good?

Thank you. I was too lazy to get the actual verses. But there are even worse parts than what you have posted: when a prophet kills dozens of children for calling him "baldy", when God hardens the Pharaoh's heart so that He can send more plagues, the countless cruel rules in the Pentateuch, the campaigns and slaughters of the Israelites, when Jesus says "I have come not to bring peace but a sword", the horrors to be visited on the world in Revelations... even if you go only by what Jesus says, the main message of the Bible is not "love one another" but rather "obey and fear God." Only in a very few places, considering the whole of the Bible, is w33d's so-called "main message" listed.

[This message has been edited by Twisted_Ferret (edited 10-10-2006).]

when a prophet kills dozens of children for calling him "baldy"

Just because it is IN the bible doesn't mean it was the actions of a faithful person. Most of the prophets spoken of in the Bible were prophets of Baal and Ashera...idols. Prophets of greed, lust, and pride (Baal and Ashera represented these ideals), as the one you spoke of was.

God hardens the Pharaoh's heart so that He can send more plagues

Never once does the Bible describe God as a man in the clouds. God is the universe and its mechanisms; Pharaoh's pride hardened his heart, and instead of doing what was right, he continued into pride and thus the universe shat on him. That is the very essence of pride; when we are proud, we are humiliated in the end.

Pentateuch

The first five books and their laws apply only to Israelites. Jesus taught only 4 rules: Humility, Ammends, Acceptance, Sharing. They are the ideals behind the OT laws - when one was proud, they were humiliated in return. When one was hardened, they were tormented until ammends were made. When one strayed from their heart, they met misery until they accepted truth. When one was selfish, they met loneliness until they would share. This was true in the beginning, and it is true today. The dogma behind it doesn't mean shit, but if you can't appreciate the truth that is threaded in a book just because humans are ignorant and have no idea how to be humble, thus corrupting the teachings...well then, you're no better.

the campaigns and slaughters of the Israelites

This is necessary: Life feeds off life. It's not fun, nobody likes death...but with pride, symbiosis is impossible, and thus parasitic behavior fills the void. The Israelites were proud, and thus to survive they could not live in peace because they wouldn't give up their version of insanity.

I have come not to bring peace but a sword

Hmm, let's see why that is...the 'good' are supposed to not fight back and die for their beliefs, while the 'evil' are supposed to kill, lie, cheat, and steal to gain the materials they think will bring them happiness...sounds about right. What's wrong with the truth that there are truly twisted people who wish to kill those who aren't in line with their insanity? Doesn't make you happy that not everyone uses free will responsibly?

the horrors to be visited on the world in Revelations

The 4 horsemen? Conquest, War, Famine, Plague. Well, let's see. The proud want the world at the cost of anything, even tremendous loss of life. After enough industrialization to fuel the war machine, the fields will be barren and the world will be a wasteland of death...sounds like it's humans that are choosing to do this, but god just knows it's going to happen.

Frankly, not a surprise...people have been bringing the world closer to the inevitable extinction of humanity from the first time 'property' was introduced into the collective. We think we own shit and we don't - we do all sorts of reckless and short sighted shit to maintain our status as property owners.

obey and fear God.

No, the message is fear humanity and their pride; love and cherish the humility and mercy of the eternal.

We run and we run, doing nothing but crushing our own lives...yet when we turn to face the truth, we still meet happiness just as easily as if we'd never ran at all. Whether you call the truth a god, purpose, chance, reaction or whatever, doesn't matter...but to think that there is no order to the Universe is stupid at best, especially when you know otherwise.

And I still despise Christianity...even with the truths in it, nobody can know what the eternal is while they are alive. Hating or even judging someone based on them not defining the eternal as God is stupid...and it says in the Bible that judgement is reserved for the eternal. Besides, doesn't the Bible also say that no man will not come to God?

Summary for those who don't want to read my whole post:

Mercy over judgement as judgement is not ours.

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

Summary for those who don't want to read my whole post:

Mercy over judgement as judgement is not ours.

You, sir, are an inspiration to us all.

Now, let's toke.

quote:Originally posted by Distromnia:

You, sir, are an inspiration to us all.

Now, let's toke.

Sorry...might have a baby on the way. Need to keep my drop clean so I can get a good job if need be. I'll toke another time though, fo' sho'.

quote:Originally posted by w33d:

Really, I guess you missed the part of the Bible where Jesus explains that that is the point...



No, these are Jesus's Great Commandments: Love God above all else. Love your neighbor as yourself.

quote:Originally posted by Viraljimmy:

So religion is why the world has

been in such a good way for all

of recorded history?

All the bad things you think would

happen without religion-

is it just your religion that

makes you not want that shit?

Do not blame religion; the human misinterpretations of God are at fault.

I love how the religious person only sticks with the bible when it's convinent for them.

"He said this in the bible so we HAVE to listen"

"Oh, well, they didn't really mean that part"

You believe it or you don't. Stop being so damn american with the whole pick and choosing when a religion is convinent for you.

No religion is convenient; no belief is convenient. Life is not convenient. It's a struggle to understand the incomprehensible and is always met with failure.

Ignorance is not convenient either; accepting a belief as a comfort blanket is no more effective than living without it.

Hexadecimal, I am ignoring your large post replying to my post on the Bible because you are plainly not a Christian. My only intent in that post was to show that the Bible, as read literally, was not a book mainly concerned about the commandment "love your neighbors." You have said several times (http://www.totse.com/bbs/Forum15/HTML/006053.html) in other threads (http://www.totse.com/bbs/Forum15/HTML/006025-2.html) that organized religion is not The Truth*, and your replies posit things that go against a literal interpretation of an inerrant Bible. That is the only thing I am arguing against, not your personal beliefs.

As to your latest post:

quote:2 a : suited to personal comfort or to easy performance <meeting at a convenient time> b : suited to a particular situation <a convenient excuse> c : affording accommodation or advantage <found it convenient to deal with both problems at the same time>

Religion often suits comfort. It is often helpful in certain situations: whether fearing for your life, or looking for an excuse to murder, or wanting comfort from a loving father-figure, etc. It oftens gives you the advantage of community with other believers, and courage because of faith in the power and justness of God, etc. According to this official definition of convenient, religion can often be convenient. I don't understand what you hope to accomplish with your post; it's as if I made a strident declaration that "Christianity is not a religion!" Well, perhaps by some definition; but unless you want to argue semantics and advocate for a different definition of the word in question, your post is meaningless.



*Yes, I'm aware that you did not say "organized religion sux" in so many words. However, in those and other threads you advocate tenets incompatible with Christianity; disparage "man-made religions" when referring to a post about Christianity; and other things of that sort.

Edit: You also say you despise Christianity in your latest post, heh. Guess I didn't need thosr links. http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif)



[This message has been edited by Twisted_Ferret (edited 10-11-2006).]

Okay. Upon further thought, I realize that the arguments you advanced do, in fact, deal with my basic point - albeit in a flawed manner. My basic point being, that is, that w33d was incorrect in his statement about the Bible basically being only about loving. I'm going to attempt to explain why I don't see your objections as valid.

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

Just because it is IN the bible doesn't mean it was the actions of a faithful person. Most of the prophets spoken of in the Bible were prophets of Baal and Ashera...idols. Prophets of greed, lust, and pride (Baal and Ashera represented these ideals), as the one you spoke of was.

This is not a Biblical view. It may be true; I don't know. However, in the Bible itself, this prophet - his name escapes me at the moment - was clearly listed as a prophet of YHWH/JHVH/God.

quote:Never once does the Bible describe God as a man in the clouds. God is the universe and its mechanisms; Pharaoh's pride hardened his heart, and instead of doing what was right, he continued into pride and thus the universe shat on him. That is the very essence of pride; when we are proud, we are humiliated in the end.

The form of God - whether man on cloud or not - is irrelevant to this discussion. The Bible itself says that God hardened the Pharaoh's heart Himself. Again, I don't know the truth of this matter; but the Bible, taken by itself, plainly explains that God was the cause - not pride.

quote:The first five books and their laws apply only to Israelites. Jesus taught only 4 rules: Humility, Ammends, Acceptance, Sharing. They are the ideals behind the OT laws - when one was proud, they were humiliated in return. When one was hardened, they were tormented until ammends were made. When one strayed from their heart, they met misery until they accepted truth. When one was selfish, they met loneliness until they would share. This was true in the beginning, and it is true today. The dogma behind it doesn't mean shit, but if you can't appreciate the truth that is threaded in a book just because humans are ignorant and have no idea how to be humble, thus corrupting the teachings...well then, you're no better.

1.) Jesus says that "not one jot" of the Law (i.e. Pentateuch) would pass away. True, we are not expected to sacrifice animals any more; but the principles espoused in the Old Testament are apparently still valid, and in any case were nothing like loving.

2.) Your objection that not all of the Bible is correct is irrelevant. Again, I am not concerned with your own personal beliefs; my only point is that the Bible is not a basically loving book.

quote:This is necessary: Life feeds off life. It's not fun, nobody likes death...but with pride, symbiosis is impossible, and thus parasitic behavior fills the void. The Israelites were proud, and thus to survive they could not live in peace because they wouldn't give up their version of insanity.

Like you yourself said, it's not actually necessary; that is, it's not necessary if you're not violent. However, these slaughters were encouraged by God, again showing that the basic message in the Bible is not peace and tolerance.

quote:Hmm, let's see why that is...the 'good' are supposed to not fight back and die for their beliefs, while the 'evil' are supposed to kill, lie, cheat, and steal to gain the materials they think will bring them happiness...sounds about right. What's wrong with the truth that there are truly twisted people who wish to kill those who aren't in line with their insanity? Doesn't make you happy that not everyone uses free will responsibly?

1.) The evil are not supposed to do anything.

2.) Good people being even better people doesn't mean that there will be more violence, especially if the message spreads as Jesus said it would.

3.) Someone who brings teachings of loving and kindness could not be said to be bringing a sword. It doesn't matter what others do - i.e., evil people, who will continue to do what they have done since, apparently, the creation of the world.

quote:The 4 horsemen? Conquest, War, Famine, Plague. Well, let's see. The proud want the world at the cost of anything, even tremendous loss of life. After enough industrialization to fuel the war machine, the fields will be barren and the world will be a wasteland of death...sounds like it's humans that are choosing to do this, but god just knows it's going to happen.

1.) It is not only that which I refer to, but also God's judgement, his advocation of the slaughter and violence, etc.

2.) If God knows it's going to happen, then it's hardly our choice.

3.) Even assuming free will and omniscience are compatible - or that God is not omniscient, but merely very perceptive - why stand by? Why let it happen?

quote:No, the message is fear humanity and their pride; love and cherish the humility and mercy of the eternal.

No, the message is "obey (http://www.seekgod.org/bible/hearinggod.html) and fear (http://www.acts17-11.com/fear.html) God."

quote:We run and we run, doing nothing but crushing our own lives...yet when we turn to face the truth, we still meet happiness just as easily as if we'd never ran at all. Whether you call the truth a god, purpose, chance, reaction or whatever, doesn't matter...but to think that there is no order to the Universe is stupid at best, especially when you know otherwise.

This is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

quote: Besides, doesn't the Bible also say that no man will not come to God?

I'd like a verse for that, please.

quote:Originally posted by Twisted_Ferret:

when a prophet kills dozens of children for calling him "baldy"

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

Just because it is IN the bible doesn't mean it was the actions of a faithful person. Most of the prophets spoken of in the Bible were prophets of Baal and Ashera...idols. Prophets of greed, lust, and pride (Baal and Ashera represented these ideals), as the one you spoke of was.

Completely wrong. That prophet was Elisha.

As for your interpretation of the Bible, you are ignorant in that there are many different opinions spread throughout the Bible itself. Each author had his own ideas about what God was, whether Christians should follow the Law, etc. The author of Matthew, being a Jewish Christian, believed that Christians should follow the Law, and so he had Jesus say that the Law should be followed.

Twisted_Ferret already replied to a lot of this, so I'm going to sit back and watch.

quote:Originally posted by LostCause:

If there is no god we define our own objective truths.

You can't define an objective truth. You can describe it in words, but you can't make up your own. Ones you make up are subjective, aka relative.

There's nothing inherently wrong with subjective truth. It is still true, but only within the "reality" your mind creates. Hence the name "subjective truth."

quote:Originally posted by Hexadecimal:

And I still despise Christianity...even with the truths in it, nobody can know what the eternal is while they are alive. Hating or even judging someone based on them not defining the eternal as God is stupid...and it says in the Bible that judgement is reserved for the eternal. Besides, doesn't the Bible also say that no man will not come to God?

quote:Originally posted by Twisted Ferret:

I'd like a verse for that, please.

http://bible.oremus.org/?ql=27548016

The catch is it doesn't say everyone is going to heaven. It just says eventually everyone will praise God. There are obviously people who die on earth today that do not praise God. So it could mean one of two things:

At some point in the future, everyone on Earth will be praising God.

Or, as most Christians believe...

Everyone will praise God once they see his glory in heaven, regardless of their judgment.

Quote all that rubbish from the old testament you want.

Having slaves and beating your wife is not loving your neighbor so you can't do it Jesus said in the gospel, and yes it contradicts earlier parts of the bible. Fucking get over it. the old testament is books on how to live in 1500 B.C. quite enlightened for the time.

quote:Originally posted by w33d:

I do know, that's why I like the bible so much. 850 pages and basically only 2 points.

Love one another as God has loved you.

Love your neighbor as yourself.

That is incredibly false. And I don't believe god is perfect, personally. I understand the concept of a perfect god, but I don't believe god is perfect. I believe god sets the standard of perfection for humans because we are supposedly made in his image.

Cheers,

Lost

quote:Originally posted by Clarphimous:

You can't define an objective truth. You can describe it in words, but you can't make up your own. Ones you make up are subjective, aka relative.

There's nothing inherently wrong with subjective truth. It is still true, but only within the "reality" your mind creates. Hence the name "subjective truth."

I believe in Einsteins Mouse. I believe we control our own realities. If we create our own realities, we can create our own objective truths. We can define truth in our reality the way we see it.

Cheers,

Lost

quote:Originally posted by w33d:

Quote all that rubbish from the old testament you want.

Having slaves and beating your wife is not loving your neighbor so you can't do it Jesus said in the gospel, and yes it contradicts earlier parts of the bible. Fucking get over it. the old testament is books on how to live in 1500 B.C. quite enlightened for the time.

Thanks for admitting that you're wrong. So the main and largest part of the Bible contradicts Jesus' message, as you admit. This means that the Bible does not, in fact, have a single dominant theme of "love others." You might be able to get away with saying that the main message of Jesus was love and so forth, though I personally disagree; however, what you say right here contradicts your previous statements. Even the one that you love the Bible, heh: calling the main part of the entire Bible "shit" doesn't really speak to me of much respect for the book.

Edit: Also, as I have told Hexadecimal, the OT is still valid in Jesus' opinion; the OT is not enlightened even for the time (Hammaburi's code was, for instance, much better - though certainly not perfect); and you have failed to deal with the New Testament unlovingness that I have pointed out. http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif)



[This message has been edited by Twisted_Ferret (edited 10-11-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Clarphimous:

http://bible.oremus.org/?ql=27548016

The catch is it doesn't say everyone is going to heaven. It just says eventually everyone will praise God. There are obviously people who die on earth today that do not praise God. So it could mean one of two things:

At some point in the future, everyone on Earth will be praising God.

Or, as most Christians believe...

Everyone will praise God once they see his glory in heaven, regardless of their judgment.

Ah, I see. Thank you.

quote:Originally posted by LostCause:

I believe in Einsteins Mouse. I believe we control our own realities. If we create our own realities, we can create our own objective truths. We can define truth in our reality the way we see it.

Cheers,

Lost

Let's strike a compromise, since we're essentially saying the same thing. It's subjective in the context of the outer universe that we live in, and objective in our own personal reality. Sound good?

[This message has been edited by Clarphimous (edited 10-11-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Twisted_Ferret:

Originally posted by w33d:

Quote all that rubbish from the old testament you want.

Having slaves and beating your wife is not loving your neighbor so you can't do it Jesus said in the gospel, and yes it contradicts earlier parts of the bible. Fucking get over it. the old testament is books on how to live in 1500 B.C. quite enlightened for the time.

Thanks for admitting that you're wrong. So the main and largest part of the Bible contradicts Jesus' message, as you admit. This means that the Bible does not, in fact, have a single dominant theme of "love others." You might be able to get away with saying that the main message of Jesus was love and so forth, though I personally disagree; however, what you say right here contradicts your previous statements. Even the one that you love the Bible, heh: calling the main part of the entire Bible "shit" doesn't really speak to me of much respect for the book.

Edit: Also, as I have told Hexadecimal, the OT is still valid in Jesus' opinion; the OT is not enlightened even for the time (Hammaburi's code was, for instance, much better - though certainly not perfect); and you have failed to deal with the New Testament unlovingness that I have pointed out. http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif)



I have dealt with everything. Jesus says explicitly that

1. Love one another as I have loved you

and

2. Love your neighbor as yourself

Are God's highest commandments.

The old testament is jewish law, and Jesus does say its valid, but he also flaunted the parts which were hypocritical and that didn't adhere to his two highest commandments. Such as healing the sick on the sabbath.

If you cannot handle parable and allegories, you should not be reading books like the bible.

To fully glean the lessons from the bible you must look at them in their full historical context and not judge them based on our time.

It doesn't even seem like you understand the Christian view of the Bible. Jesus is the main part, not the old testament like you baselessly claim.

quote:Originally posted by w33d:

I have dealt with everything. Jesus says explicitly that

1. Love one another as I have loved you

and

2. Love your neighbor as yourself

Are God's highest commandments.

The old testament is jewish law, and Jesus does say its valid, but he also flaunted the parts which were hypocritical and that didn't adhere to his two highest commandments. Such as healing the sick on the sabbath.

If you cannot handle parable and allegories, you should not be reading books like the bible.

To fully glean the lessons from the bible you must look at them in their full historical context and not judge them based on our time.

It doesn't even seem like you understand the Christian view of the Bible. Jesus is the main part, not the old testament like you baselessly claim.





We know very well what the Christian viewpoint is -- the problem is that you never asked us to assume the Christian viewpoint as the correct one (as one would normally do to debate a point within Christianity). And therefore you were simply claiming that this viewpoint is the correct one. In that case, you would have to debate against Jewish and atheists' ideas about what the main points of the Bible are.

So make your choice. Do you want to debate against those opposing belief systems in support of Christianity, or not?

By the way, if you were referring to the two greatest commandments (according to Jesus), they are:

"Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind."

"Love your neighbour as yourself."

You forgot the more important one and essentially repeated the second one.

quote:Originally posted by Twisted_Ferret:

Originally posted by w33d:

Quote all that rubbish from the old testament you want.

Having slaves and beating your wife is not loving your neighbor so you can't do it Jesus said in the gospel, and yes it contradicts earlier parts of the bible. Fucking get over it. the old testament is books on how to live in 1500 B.C. quite enlightened for the time.

Thanks for admitting that you're wrong. So the main and largest part of the Bible contradicts Jesus' message, as you admit. This means that the Bible does not, in fact, have a single dominant theme of "love others." You might be able to get away with saying that the main message of Jesus was love and so forth, though I personally disagree; however, what you say right here contradicts your previous statements. Even the one that you love the Bible, heh: calling the main part of the entire Bible "shit" doesn't really speak to me of much respect for the book.

Edit: Also, as I have told Hexadecimal, the OT is still valid in Jesus' opinion; the OT is not enlightened even for the time (Hammaburi's code was, for instance, much better - though certainly not perfect); and you have failed to deal with the New Testament unlovingness that I have pointed out. http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif)



I'm going to tell you something that happened to me when I died: I was judged...but judgement is not what many believe it to be. It's a process of coming to terms with what ways you have ran from god and why you did so. God says in the Bible that his name means Jealeous - it is because he is Eternal and nothing else is. We are not supposed to run from the truth but every last one of us does...we are all returned upon death so that they we can be given Mercy and Grace.

Even the sinnin' folks in the OT who were sent to the grave had ran from god, and they too will be shown his mercy and grave. Hell is nothing but a state of mind that we suffer on this earth, this is where there is clawing, gnashing of teeth, and the eternal fire that is hatred...this is 'purgatory' to steal something from the Catholics. We're separated from mercy and grace, but we are all brought to it.

Take it with a grain of salt if you want...but I can't wait 'til I die again.

My apologies on Elisha. I was mistaking him with one of the Baal.

And at no point does the Bible say that the prophets were perfect people. In fact, it states the exact opposite, that we all stray from god: Even those chosen by god.

My only intent in that post was to show that the Bible, as read literally, was not a book mainly concerned about the commandment "love your neighbors."

This I would agree with. It's called the living word because it is the descript of life. The Israelites, either literally are metaphorically, are those who knew god and abandoned him anyways. They were met with pain and suffering, yet always shown mercy.

replies posit things that go against a literal interpretation of an inerrant Bible.

No, they're actually in full agreement with either a literal or metaphorical Bible. I can explain this if you would like over AIM, YIM, or MSN...if you'd like, post for my sn for any of them and I'd be glad to discuss it.

That is the only thing I am arguing against, not your personal beliefs.

Hehe...it's cool. I try not to argue anyways. Expressing my thoughts, maybe...but when people disagree, it's fine by me. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Religion often suits comfort. It is often helpful in certain situations: whether fearing for your life, or looking for an excuse to murder, or wanting comfort from a loving father-figure, etc. It oftens gives you the advantage of community with other believers, and courage because of faith in the power and justness of God, etc. According to this official definition of convenient, religion can often be convenient. I don't understand what you hope to accomplish with your post; it's as if I made a strident declaration that "Christianity is not a religion!" Well, perhaps by some definition; but unless you want to argue semantics and advocate for a different definition of the word in question, your post is meaningless.

I meant convenient in a wider sense of life as a whole - ignorance of the reactions to your actions is not convenient, but detrimental to yourself and others - ignorance of the struggle is not convenient, but detrimental to your growth. Though I am in complete agreement with the point you proposed. Religion can be comforting and it can be used as an excuse - without a doubt.

*Yes, I'm aware that you did not say "organized religion sux" in so many words. However, in those and other threads you advocate tenets incompatible with Christianity; disparage "man-made religions" when referring to a post about Christianity; and other things of that sort.

I advocate nothing in disagreement with any of the religions out there. I'm actually willing to show how they are completely in line with ANY religion, if you so wish to quote them in this thread.

Ayn Rand would bitch slap the OP for this thread title.

quote:Originally posted by w33d:

I do know, that's why I like the bible so much. 850 pages and basically only 2 points.

Love one another as God has loved you.

Love your neighbor as yourself.

No, love God above all else. Love your neighbor as yourself.

If god told you murdering thousands of innocent babies was moral, would that make it moral? No.

Morals don't come from god.

quote:Originally posted by Clarphimous:

Let's strike a compromise, since we're essentially saying the same thing. It's subjective in the context of the outer universe that we live in, and objective in our own personal reality. Sound good?



That's not a compromise. We both agree. Do we shake virtual hands now?

Cheers,

Lost

my advice for w33d:

Don't look for an excuse to be bad. Either be bad or be good. failing that, do w/e the fuck you want.

Ok godboy. Does God like things that are morally right, or are they morally right because God likes them?

quote:Originally posted by LostCause:

That's not a compromise. We both agree. Do we shake virtual hands now?

Cheers,

Lost

You're right, that's not a compromise. Oh well, it sounded good.

*shakes hands*

quote:Originally posted by w33d:

I have dealt with everything. Jesus says explicitly that

1. Love one another as I have loved you

and

2. Love your neighbor as yourself

Are God's highest commandments.

The old testament is jewish law, and Jesus does say its valid, but he also flaunted the parts which were hypocritical and that didn't adhere to his two highest commandments. Such as healing the sick on the sabbath.

If you cannot handle parable and allegories, you should not be reading books like the bible.

To fully glean the lessons from the bible you must look at them in their full historical context and not judge them based on our time.

It doesn't even seem like you understand the Christian view of the Bible. Jesus is the main part, not the old testament like you baselessly claim.



Fact is the laws above were quotes by Jesus from the Old Testament:

Lev 19:18 "18 " 'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD."

Deut 6:5 "5 Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength."

He was in fact confirming what had been taught in the Old Testament -- teachings which may be understood as a series of metaphors regarding the basic choice in life of 'living by a system of law', or 'living by love'.

When Moses went up the mountain to meet 'god' the rest of the hebrews were afraid, but later in the Old Testament it says the elders of Israel met with 'god' on another mountain and ate and drank and saw 'god' face to face even tho other parts of scripture make it clear no man has seen god at any time.

All of this is made clearer by reading Hebrews chapter 2 in the New Testament where it says in verse 2 "For if the message given through angels [the Law spoken by them to Moses] was authentic and proved sure, and every violation and disobedience received an appropriate (just and adequate) penalty,"(Amplified Bible). This makes it plain the so called 'god' was in fact an angel and gives the sense that we are not being told the whole story or it is a metaphor and has been understood as such by the writer of Hebrews.

Point is the Bible read literally is rubbish, however look past the obvious and you see an analogy that uses images of what a god would be and act like to satisfy the desires of those who wish to live by the law compared to the attitude of one who lives thru love. So if you read the bible and pick out the bits that don't make sense or seem offensive you are missing the analogy. Those parts are there to give contrast and should no more be taken literally at face value than the parables told by Jesus.

Interestingly if one reads the books left by the Essenes they have a whole different take on the Law of Moses telling the law as it was given on the tablets Moses broke. They also make the following remark about scripture:

quote:Seek not the law in your scriptures, for the law is Life.

Whereas the scriptures are only words.

I tell you truly,

Moses received not his laws from God in writing,

But through the living word.

The law is living word of living God

To living Prophets for living men.

In everything that is life is the law written.

It is found in the grass, in the trees,

In the river, in the mountains, in the birds of heaven,

In the forest creatures and the fishes of the sea;

But it is found chiefly in yourselves.

All living things are nearer to God

Than the scriptures which are without life.

God so made life and all living things

That they might by the ever-living word

Teach the laws of the Heavenly Father

And the Earthly Mother

To the sons of men.

God wrote not the laws in the pages of books,

But in your heart and in your spirit.

They are in your breath, your blood, your bone;

In your flesh your eyes, your ears,

And in every little part of your body.

They are present in the air, in the water,

In the earth, in the plants, in the sunbeams,

In the depths and in the heights.

They all speak to you

That you may understand the tongue and the will

of the living God,

And scriptures are the works of man

But life and all its hosts are the work of God.

Peace http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Take it with a grain of salt if you want...but I can't wait 'til I die again.[/B][/QUOTE]

Word, reincarnation http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Clarphimous:



We know very well what the Christian viewpoint is -- the problem is that you never asked us to assume the Christian viewpoint as the correct one (as one would normally do to debate a point within Christianity). And therefore you were simply claiming that this viewpoint is the correct one. In that case, you would have to debate against Jewish and atheists' ideas about what the main points of the Bible are.

So make your choice. Do you want to debate against those opposing belief systems in support of Christianity, or not?

By the way, if you were referring to the two greatest commandments (according to Jesus), they are:

"Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind."

"Love your neighbour as yourself."

You forgot the more important one and essentially repeated the second one.



Don't tell me what I don't know. You love god with all of yourself, by loving your neighbor with all of yourself. God died for us, so that we would see how important it is to live right.

However the Church has perverted it and screwed people over the years, the true message of Jesus Christ is that everyone should live their lives to the best of their ability because that is what is best for everyone else.

im a nihilist i don't believe in morals so fuck you. life is a playground, enjoy it. thats my objective truth

if what god likes is good, and jesus is god, and jesus was a human so he must have fapped... does that make fapping morally right? cause if so... BOOYAAAAA

Just because you don't believe in god doesn't nessecarily make you a nihilist.

do you really think that life is one big playground? that people who live and breath are mere playthings to amuse you?

You can have morals without relying on a book to tell you what's what.

edit; you can believe in ureself, for example, which is merely egotism.

TRUE nihilism is denial of ure own existence.

[This message has been edited by One_way_mirror (edited 10-13-2006).]

Why are we sticking so closly to the bible.



Qoute Viraljimmy -

So religion is why the world has

been in such a good way for all

of recorded history?

All the bad things you think would

happen without religion-

is it just your religion that

makes you not want that shit?



God never created an objective truth and so human truth is defined;

murder in the name of God is right because we believe it to be so...etc. http://www.totse.com/bbs/eek.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/eek.gif)

I rule



[This message has been edited by Anti Christ Super Star (edited 10-13-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by w33d:



Don't tell me what I don't know. You love god with all of yourself, by loving your neighbor with all of yourself. God died for us, so that we would see how important it is to live right.

However the Church has perverted it and screwed people over the years, the true message of Jesus Christ is that everyone should live their lives to the best of their ability because that is what is best for everyone else.

STFU, dipshit. Here is what you said:

quote:I have dealt with everything. Jesus says explicitly that

1. Love one another as I have loved you

and

2. Love your neighbor as yourself

Are God's highest commandments.

Don't try to cover your pathetic ass.

http://bible.oremus.org/?ql=27754965

The "two greatest commandments" given by Jesus is a specific instance, not some generalization of ideas of loving your neighbor and all that crap throughout the NT. You fucked up.

[This message has been edited by Clarphimous (edited 10-13-2006).]

Thank you, Clarphimous. I was looking through his posts with the intention of quoting every time he changed his stance ("I love the Bible" --> "the OT is shit" etc http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif)), but it appears that that's not needed.

quote:Originally posted by Clarphimous:

Don't try to cover your pathetic ass.

http://bible.oremus.org/?ql=27754965

The "two greatest commandments" given by Jesus is a specific instance, not some generalization of ideas of loving your neighbor and all that crap throughout the NT. You fucked up.



No you fag, do you understand what a corollary is?

quote:Originally posted by w33d:

No you fag, do you understand what a corollary is?

Note that it was not intended a corollary, nor is it even a logically sound one (one can love other people and not love God). He misplaced one of Jesus' other quotes about a new commandment in the two greatest commandments quote, in an attempt to back up his previous statements.

Once again, for reference, here is what he said:

quote:I have dealt with everything. Jesus says explicitly that

1. Love one another as I have loved you

and

2. Love your neighbor as yourself

Are God's highest commandments.

And here is what the Bible says:

http://bible.oremus.org/?ql=27754965

Matthew 22.34-40

When the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together, and one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him. "Teacher, which commandment in the law is the greatest?" He said to him, "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the greatest and first commandment. And a second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

http://bible.oremus.org/?ql=27840942

John 13.33-35

"Little children, I am with you only a little longer. You will look for me; and as I said to the Jews so now I say to you, 'Where I am going, you cannot come.' I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another."

Saying that one commandment followed from another was just a lame attempt to cover up his mistake.

I'm done beating this dead horse.

blah blah blah blah

go ask a priest if they are interchangable. they are gtfo plzzzzz

quote:"blah blah blah blah

go ask a priest if they are interchangable. they are gtfo plzzzzz"

Ahh, the mind of a theist would almost be refreshingly stupid if it weren't so common.