View Full Version : NDE's true or false?
Gone about as far as I can with web searching and still not convinced either way. The most difficult to explain are the NDE's where the 'dead' person has reported back incidents etc., that could not have been known to a 'dead'/'unconscious mind'. What's your opinion or experience?
Namaste http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)
They are bullshit until proven otherwise.
1. The images seen vary from person to person, and from culture to culture. Christians report seeing Jesus (the stylized "white" Jesus I might add), Native Americans report seeing animals or spirits, etc.
2. Many have claimed to see the future only to have it not come true at all.
3. Many have gotten mistakes about what they have seen, reporting things which were not possible.
4. Similar experiences can be induced with chemicals, even "out-of-body" experiences.
There are, of course, many more reasons.
All in all, it is more likely that they are recalling things being uttered while in their unconscious state than it is that there is a life after death which just so happens to change from person to person and which gives wrong information about the future or the present events on Earth.
Raw_Power
2006-10-14, 00:42
quote:2. Many have claimed to see the future only to have it not come true at all.
Yep, probability says they'll guess right some times.
quote:4. Similar experiences can be induced with chemicals, even "out-of-body" experiences.
I read something about massive ammounts of DMT (or was it DXM?) being released in the brain as you die, so that would explain the "out-of-body" experiences.
Rust pretty much summed it up.
quote:Originally posted by Rust:
They are bullshit until proven otherwise.
See your point, but what constitutes sufficient proof?
There's a load of stories out there and yes it may well be that lots of them are caused by hypoxia, anasthesia or whatever, but some include lots of details that could not have been known by any natural means. If it is nothing more than the brain shutting down, considering the similar points to the experiences shared culture wide, why have humans evolved to do this?
Peace http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)
quote:Originally posted by Raw_Power:
I read something about massive ammounts of DMT (or was it DXM?) being released in the brain as you die, so that would explain the "out-of-body" experiences.
Rust pretty much summed it up.
Yes ketamine induces NDE's, so does being spun in one of those machines to simulate g-forces and Persinger developed a lab procedure using magnetic fields. This means of course that it is a natural occurrence, but why, and how does it happen when the brain is shutdown?
Peace http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)
Raw_Power
2006-10-14, 04:27
quote:Originally posted by redzed:
Yes ketamine induces NDE's, so does being spun in one of those machines to simulate g-forces and Persinger developed a lab procedure using magnetic fields. This means of course that it is a natural occurrence, but why, and how does it happen when the brain is shutdown?
Peace http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)
I just said... by massive ammounts of DMT (or DXM) being released by your brain as it shuts down, normally it only releases a little but as you die it goes into overdrive trying to survive and it's all released.
quote:Originally posted by redzed:
See your point, but what constitutes sufficient proof?
Anything which, after all things considered, makes it less likely for it to be a natural phenomenon than a supernatural one.
quote:
There's a load of stories out there and yes it may well be that lots of them are caused by hypoxia, anasthesia or whatever, but some include lots of details that could not have been known by any natural means.
Saying "that could not have been known by any natural means" is fallacious; it is an argument from personal incredulity/ignorance. You have no proof that this is the case, and that you cannot think of a way that it could have been known, does not mean that's the case.
quote: If it is nothing more than the brain shutting down, considering the similar points to the experiences shared culture wide, why have humans evolved to do this?
Evolved to do what? To see things in these traumatic experiences? Who said they evolved to do so?
[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 10-14-2006).]
quote:Originally posted by Rust:
Evolved to do what? To see things in these traumatic experiences? Who said they evolved to do so?
OK not interested in arguing about proof, there are any number of NDE's reporting things that would have been unknown to the NDE experiencer, but obviously this is hearsay and it would be futile to attempt to prove it in this forum. However I have met two people who volunteered their NDE's, Lost Cause has mentioned hers and Hex also. Fact is somethings happening, what is it? Where did this process come from? Will I also experience something like it?
I'm looking at this from a philisophical point of view in that philosohy means 'preparing for death' and if a large number of humans report back their experiences what's happening and why? Not looking for supernatural meanings or theological arguments, but what does it mean in terms of what one may face at the time of one's own death?
Peace http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)
I have a theory based on something i saw on the discovery channel. About how the capsaicin in peppers mimics the chemicals in your brain when you are dying and that is the hot pepper feeling you get. This brings me to the chili peppers that can supposedly make you trip. Well maybe a near death experience is just a natural trip in order to shield your mind from the reality that you are dying?
quote:Originally posted by w33d:
Well maybe a near death experience is just a natural trip in order to shield your mind from the reality that you are dying?
Yeah maybe, drugs have been used to initiate out of body experiences that are similar to NDE's. Why would the mind need to be shielded if it is inoperative as seems to be the case with death and revival? How to differentiate between OBE"s and NDE's? Perhaps the better question is can the mind seperate from the body? If not what's happening? How is the mind able to function when it is unconscious? It has been shown that memories already formed can be retrieved after revival, but how are thoughts and memories(like overhearing conversations) formed in an apparently inactive brain? So far I have not been able to find any research that is able to answer that question.
Peace http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)
Near death experiences can be non-life threatening, can be drug induced, can be induced on a sober body/mind, can be induced in a state of shock/trauma, can be induced in a state of peace, can be induced during a state of orgasm, can be induced in a state of pain, can be induced in a state of ecstacy...get the point?
An author explains this a lot better than I in a segment of his book...
If you want to know the truth, or at least have a better view of what is after death, or occurs in the near death experience, then simply continue to read.
quote:
Ramana had an experience that changed his life irrevocably. Seated in a bedroom on the second floor of his uncle's house, he was suddenly overwhelmed with the fear of death and became fully convinced that death was imminent. This inexplicable feeling persisted even thought he was completely healthy. Shaking with fear, he began to ponder the significane of his death. Since he was alone in the room, he decided to act out his own death and inquire into the meaning of it. He laid down with his arms stiffly at his sides, held his breath, and said to himself:
"Now death has come but what does it mean? What is it that is dying? The body dies and is carried off to the cremation ground and reduced to ashes. But with the death of the body, am I dead? Am I the body? This body is now silent and inert but I feel the full force of my personality and even the voice of the "I" within me, apart from the body. So I am the Spirit transcending the body. THe bod dies but hte spirit that transcends it cannot be touched by death. That means that I am the deathless Spirit."
How should we interpret this experience? One could argue that the youth was full of imagination and, through his ability to fantasize, produced the sensations of fear and imagined his death coming. However, from all later accounts, he was actually in a near-death state at the moment, even thought he was physically healthy. Can the mind produce such a state? The awareness of his "impending death" took full possession of him, not merely as an idea but at a deeper level that opened up his spiritual self-awareness. He suddenly became spirit and knew himself as that, no longer identifying himself as merely the body form that had been called Venkataraman. His self-realization was instantaneous, complete, and irreversible. His ego was lost in a flood of pure self-awareness.
quote:What happens when we die? The visible body disintegrates, this we know. But what of the innermost part of us, the mind, consciousness? Science says that since the mind is only a product of neurological and biological processes, consciousness is extinguished the moment those processes cease. But those who have been there tell a different story. They say that far from outward appearances, death is a transition, from our three-dimensional world to a vaster, timeless world of light. It may happen like this:
The victim of a serious accident is rushed to a hospital emergency room, and before his condition can be stabilized, his life forces flicker out. But at the moment of apparent death, he finds himself outside his body. From this new vantage point, he sees the attending medical personnel, their desperate attempts to revive a lifeless body, and recognizes the body as his own. He is at first startled by this strange state of affairs, but as he begins to come to terms with it, something stranger happens. The world of space around him collapses into a kind of tunnel through which he is drawn into another reality, a world of brilliant golden light.
Here, a being of light appears before him and fills him with feelings of love. THe being communciates with him telepathically and asks him to evaluate his life; he is surprised that he sees a panorama of it laid out before him, and not just his entire past, but aspects of his future as well. At the same time, he notices he istaking all this in with a strange, new sense, which makes him feel somehow united or one with all of creation.
He is told it is not yet "his time", and he must return to his life on Earth. He is reluctant to do so, as he never experienced such feelings of peace and love, and he also senses that, in some way, this is his real home. But the next thing he knows, he is back in his physical body and recovers.
The experience continues to affect his life profoundly. Something has been awakened in him, something greater, something spiritual. And he will never again fear death, for he knows it is not hte end. Yet when he tries to describe the episode to others, he cannot; there are no words to portray it-the experience is ineffable.
Zinkovich, I expect you to read this entire post since you are the one who knows. I also hope you've had more than one near death experience to go along with your knowldge. You do right? No? Ok, keep reading please...
quote: That is a model near-death experience (NDE), a composite of the main features found in thousands of such experiences reported world-wide (and these out of the many millions that may have actually occurred). Their number has increased dramatiaclly in the last few decades as moderm resuscitative techniques now almost routinely bring back accident and heart attack victims from the brink of death. In such numbers, they send a strong message. There is life after death, in the form of a shift to another, transcendental kind of consciousness and an entrace into another, higher realm of existence.
Death is merely the gateway or time of change for our currently earthly, human consciousness.
quote:
But this creates a problem. It is impossible under the current worldview, which acknolwedges no such kind of consciousness or other realm of existence. Therefore, the near-death experience as described can't happen and skeptics say it doesn't. They attribute all near-death experiences to dreams, fantasies, wish-fulfillment of religious expectations, hallucinations, release of endorphins, sensory dteachment, autoscopy (a condition where one sees another self),hypoxia (oxygen deprivation), limbic lobe seizures, the effects of anesthetics, and so one.
Think of the boy in the operating room that Zinkovich mentioned.
quote:
But taken individually and collectively, these "normal" explanations don't measure up.
Even thought no two near-death experiences are exactly alike, there is an uncanny similarity to them, whereas if they were dreams or fantasies, it would be just hte opposite: there would be a bewildering assortment of visions. The general content of the experience is also the same for the devoutly religious (of all religions and cultures), agnostics, and even atheists, which negates any religious wish-fulfillment theory.
As for the other explanations-hallucnations, anesthetics, seizures, and the like-the psychological states these conditions give rise to are all categorized as distorted, unpleasant, and widely varried, nothing like the one state of clarity, peace, and joy consistently described by NDErs. Furthermore, those who have experienced any of these states, and an NDE at another time, say they were altogether different, and that they could clearly distinguish between the two.
IN addition, NDErs have amazed their doctors by recounting exactly what was going on during their resuscitations, a period when they were unconscious and oftentimes clinically dead! They have accuratly described medical procedures, clothing worn by those present, and even what was going on in other rooms of the hospital. Still there's the aspect of the phenomenon that many find the most compelling-the sheer "realness" of the experience to the NDErs. Honest and sincere people from all walks of life describe it as "realer than here," or "as real as you and I are," while others say:
Are you still with me?
quote:
[list]
*"It's reality. I know for myself that I didn't experience no fantasy. There was no so-called dream or nothing. These things really happened to me. It happened. I know. I went through it."
Have any of you reading this, ever gone through it?-ate
*"I've had a lot of dreams and it wasn't like any dream that I had. It was real. It was so real."
*"I know it was real...I could swear on a Bible that I was there...There's no way you can prove it, but I was there!"
No appeal to scientific validation or what is possible under the current worldview is needed for these people. THey have been there, they have seen, they know what death is, and no longer fear it. "I saw the place you go when you die. I am not afraid of dying...it is hard to explain because it is very different from life in the world." "After you've once had the experience that I had, you know in your heart that there's no such thing as death. You just graduate from one thing to another..." when I leave here...I've been there before."
I'm doing this to try and bring some light on to the subject that has occured everywhery, many times.
quote:
Does a dream make a person lose all fear of death? A hallucination cause him to swear on a Bible that he was somewhere else? Can a lack of oxygen allow someone to see what is going on in other rooms of a hospital?(all documented btw-ate) Do anesthetics completely change people's outlooks on life and reality? Raymond A Moody Jr., the pioneer and unofficial dean of NDE research, says he has talked to almost every NDE researched in the world, and most of them believe that NDEs are a true glimpse of life after life. They just can't scientifically prove it.
Moody speculates that the real problem may be a "limitation of the currently accepted modes of scientific and logical thought." Kenneth Ring, probably the most prominent NDE researcher, echoes this sentiment and calls for a paradigm shift, or an "openness to concepts tha remain generally unacceptable to the scientific community (what do you think is going to happen in the next years?-ate)." He says:"It is my opinion that without such concepts the near-death experience cannot be understood."
Without science at least bringing some light on this subject, without some new understands brought into place to help support why we can't define exactly what is happening, yet why those experiencers of it seem to know exactly what is is happening, I don't think we'll get very far without experiencing it yourself. Unless of course a paradism shift occurs soon...
Please continue if you've made it his far.
quote:
Moody and Ring are right. The NDe, like all paranormal phenonmena, doesn't work under the current scientific worldview or paradigm. But in an expanded framework of space, time, and consciousness, it not only works, it must be, for the most basic axiom of extra-dimensional theory is tha we are all extra-dimensional beings, and the greter part of us, our higher selves and consciousness, exists in higher space. Or as Ouspensky says:"We are ourselves beings of four dimensions, and really live in a four-dimensional world but are conscious of ourselves only in three-dimensional world." The near-death experience is the beginning of the transition to that higher self and consciousness, a transition we will all someday make.
In fact, all pathways to higher consciousness lead to this conclusion. Jesus said, "In truth, in very truth I tell you all, you shall see heaven wide open." What could he have meant by this? As one who accessed that higher, extra-dimensional consciousness, he saw that a part of us will exist after death in a higher reality. Mohammed said:"And those who disbelieve will not cease to be in doubt thereof until the Hour comes upon them unawares, or they come into the doom of a disastrous day." What could he have meant by this? That even is someone did not acquire the higher sense, to see this larger world sooner, they'd see it later, when they died.
Those with complete possession of a higher, extra-dimensional conscious? "You yourself, will see the universe as i have seen it," the "aliens" told one abductee, while Betty Andreasson was told that her real home was a world of light, where the "One" was, and that everyone would someday experience it (more on this later). Many abductees, their consciousness stimulated, in effect raised, by the experience, have sensed this, as Mack obvserves: "A number of abductees with whom I have worked experience at certain points of opening up to the source of being in the cosmos, which they often call Home (a realm beyond, or not in, space/time as we know it), and from which they feel they have been brutally cut off in the course of becoming embodied as a human being."
These are different paths that will cross many times in this chapter but leard to the same place: our place of origin and our destination. We are indeed more than flesh and blood; we are extra-dimensional beings whose real home is in a higher space, who enter this three-dimensional world as a point(birth), and exit as one(death).
Now, the next pages work to explain and recount The Out-of-Body Experience, The Tunnel, The World of Light and Higher Space-Home, Eternal Life, and the return from the NDE.
If anyone reads that, which I hope if you're reading this you will go back to read, or already have, and would like to understand or read more on this subject from this point of view then just say something so I can type it up. I really would like to because I feel if people haven't had such said experience, then they won't know.
Thread (http://www.totse.com/bbs/Forum8/HTML/004742.html)
Yep, they're real.
Real.PUA
2006-10-15, 06:38
They are real in the sense that they are real experiences, but nothing paranormal is happening. No one can see things they otherwise would not be able to see.
And redzed, you dont need to die to experience an NDE. And nothing indicates that you will necessarily experience one when you do die.
[This message has been edited by Real.PUA (edited 10-15-2006).]
xtreem5150ahm
2006-10-15, 12:56
quote:Originally posted by Rust:
They are bullshit until proven otherwise.
1. The images seen vary from person to person, and from culture to culture. Christians report seeing Jesus (the stylized "white" Jesus I might add), Native Americans report seeing animals or spirits, etc.
2. Many have claimed to see the future only to have it not come true at all.
3. Many have gotten mistakes about what they have seen, reporting things which were not possible.
4. Similar experiences can be induced with chemicals, even "out-of-body" experiences.
There are, of course, many more reasons.
All in all, it is more likely that they are recalling things being uttered while in their unconscious state than it is that there is a life after death which just so happens to change from person to person and which gives wrong information about the future or the present events on Earth.
Hi Rust,
Me too, i'm skeptical. I'm not sure if i've ever shared this on TOTSE, but for what it's worth, my wife died twice (and she's here to tell about it).
She has no claim about seeing anything while she was dead. Like i said, "for what it's worth".
This past week on a radio show called "The Word for Today" they had a guy that claims to have been dead for 90 minutes (of course, he wrote a book, 90 minutes in heaven)
The area that i live doesnt get the best signal for most of my ride to work, so i missed most of the show, so when i got home i looked up the WFT web site.. figures, couldnt get the site to load (maybe it does now, i havent tried again).
I did look up his name though, and besides his own website he was also featured on the 700 club (IIRC) Anyway, the article that i read was only somewhat interesting, but it had pics of the car and of him in the hospital (so, atleast there was an accident, which means there should be other people that know something about this, firsthand). And actually, it wasnt the guys discription of Heaven that had me curious, but the truth of the accident and other people that might be "in the know". If you're interested, the guy's name was 'Don Piper'.
Maybe later i'll see if the site will load or not..
God Bless,
johnny
quote:Originally posted by redzed:
Fact is somethings happening, what is it?
A chemical reaction in the brain.
quote:Where did this process come from?
A neurological process where the brain releases chemicals in the hope maintaining control of vital organs or consciousness, would prove to be beneficial in terms of survival.
quote:Will I also experience something like it?
Who knows?
You are asking questions for which there is no absolute definitive answer. The fact of the matter is, however, that given the humongous amount of inconsistencies, it is reasonable to assume nothing supernatural/paranormal is happening until proven otherwise.
quote:Originally posted by Real.PUA:
They are real in the sense that they are real experiences, but nothing paranormal is happening. No one can see things they otherwise would not be able to see.
And redzed, you dont need to die to experience an NDE. And nothing indicates that you will necessarily experience one when you do die.
Yes, but you have had a near death experience? And you need to come close to death, either physically or mentally to experience one.
The studies and reports show that they have caused people to see things that they couldn't have possibly seen.
These are put forth by doctors and nurses or the people themselves. Not always the people experiencing them, but the people around those people. In this case these people are well respected medical personell who were actually on duty at the time.
The fact is that this experience takes place far away from the brain, for most of the time, this is experience occurs when the brain is considered medically, and technically DEAD and lifeless.
So it would be quite impossible for one assume that these things are neurological processes and still be correct about this.
[This message has been edited by ate (edited 10-15-2006).]
Dark_Magneto
2006-10-15, 23:23
quote:Originally posted by ate:
The fact is that this experience takes place far away from the brain, for most of the time, this is experience occurs when the brain is considered [b]medically, and technically DEAD and lifeless
That's quite impossible, seeing as brain death is the point of no return. When the brain ceases functioning, it's game over and you can't insert coin to continue. Nobody has ever came back from being clinically brain dead, so any claims on what happened in their altered mind state leading up totheir death is purely random speculation.
quote:Originally posted by Real.PUA:
They are real in the sense that they are real experiences, but nothing paranormal is happening. No one can see things they otherwise would not be able to see.
And redzed, you dont need to die to experience an NDE. And nothing indicates that you will necessarily experience one when you do die.
Yeas I understand that, it's why they are called 'Near' death experiences, but the fact is they do occur and the effect has been reproduced in living persons by use of drugs etc. The studies including those on Ketamine suggest the experience is effective in treating some intractable psycholgical problems and addictions. Meaning NDE's may be a useful tool in treatment for conditions that have proven beyond current practice.
Peace http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)
quote:Originally posted by ate:
The studies and reports show that they have caused people to see things that they couldn't have possibly seen.
Studies and report done by who? Do you have any cites we can take a look at?
quote:Originally posted by Rust:
Who knows?
You are asking questions for which there is no absolute definitive answer. The fact of the matter is, however, that given the humongous amount of inconsistencies, it is reasonable to assume nothing supernatural/paranormal is happening until proven otherwise.
Yes I'm skeptical of any supernatural/paranormal as well, however there seems convincing evidence that there is a level of consciousness that is occurring independently of what could be called the 'norm'. Given that 1 in 5 people having been revived from a 'death' or 'near-death' state report them, and the nature of the NDE varies sometimes seeming a 'good' experience and at others not so good, but many share significant similarities. The tunnel of light, the significant person, the life review and so on is consistent across cultures and religions. Does it matter if they meet Jesus, Buddha or the Higher Self, or is it of more note that it is common to have that experience?
What does that mean to me? A one in five chance of having a similar experience at death? If so, is it wise to acquaint oneself with the process?
The process is reproducible in clinical trials indicating it is a natural occurrence(and mainly beneficial, with a few notable exceptions). The process also bears a remarkable similarity to that proposed in the Tibetan Book of Living and Dying, a tome which is dedicated to helping the dying to transition from life to what ever comes after, if anything. Regardless of an afterlife or not, if there is a process that facilitates an understanding which will enable an easier death, what is there to lose?
Namaste http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)
quote:Originally posted by redzed:
Regardless of an afterlife or not, if there is a process that facilitates an understanding which will enable an easier death, what is there to lose?
Are you saying that learning more about what researchers know about NDEs may help make dying easier? If that's what you're saying, I don't follow the logic.
xtreem5150ahm
2006-10-17, 03:36
quote:Originally posted by xtreem5150ahm:
Hi Rust,
Me too, i'm skeptical. I'm not sure if i've ever shared this on TOTSE, but for what it's worth, my wife died twice (and she's here to tell about it).
She has no claim about seeing anything while she was dead. Like i said, "for what it's worth".
This past week on a radio show called "The Word for Today" they had a guy that claims to have been dead for 90 minutes (of course, he wrote a book, 90 minutes in heaven)
The area that i live doesnt get the best signal for most of my ride to work, so i missed most of the show, so when i got home i looked up the WFT web site.. figures, couldnt get the site to load (maybe it does now, i havent tried again).
I did look up his name though, and besides his own website he was also featured on the 700 club (IIRC) Anyway, the article that i read was only somewhat interesting, but it had pics of the car and of him in the hospital (so, atleast there was an accident, which means there should be other people that know something about this, firsthand). And actually, it wasnt the guys discription of Heaven that had me curious, but the truth of the accident and other people that might be "in the know". If you're interested, the guy's name was 'Don Piper'.
Maybe later i'll see if the site will load or not..
God Bless,
johnny
Sorry, the site that it's on is,
http://www.haventoday.org/archives.php
but the other site still dont load.. good thing i got it wrong http://www.totse.com/bbs/redface.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/redface.gif)
johnny
Nephtys-Ra
2006-10-17, 07:21
It's definitely not DXM.
Your brain doesn't produce it.
DMT, on the otherhand... They don't call it instant acid for nothing.
quote:Originally posted by Dark_Magneto:
That's quite impossible, seeing as brain death is the point of no return. When the brain ceases functioning, it's game over and you can't insert coin to continue. Nobody has ever came back from being clinically brain dead, so any claims on what happened in their altered mind state leading up totheir death is purely random speculation.
All I know is that the doc's say the people are dead, and then they come back to life telling the doc's what went on in the room.
Then the doc's say there was no way that you could know that, how did you know that/
And then they tell them what happened, and they don't believe them, or they do.
And it continuously happens like that for as long as these circumstances appear, being we have bodies that can die and be revived.
quote:Originally posted by Martini:
Studies and report done by who? Do you have any cites we can take a look at?
They're all in the book, just search online and look for the Ph.D's and what not.
[This message has been edited by ate (edited 10-17-2006).]
quote:Originally posted by ate:
They're all in the book, just search online and look for the Ph.D's and what not.
Something in a book makes it part of a legitimate study and is enough evidence for you to believe that people see things when they're unconcious/dead/near dead that they couldn't possibly see?
Nephtys-Ra
2006-10-17, 20:43
Hilarious. A few books is enough to prove the existence of ghosts/paranormal/etc but a whole science devoted to physics doesn't seem to faze him.
You keep telling us to look at the other side. Why don't you practice what you preach?
People! I will show you how this man put the "ass" in assume!
quote::Originally posted by Martini:
Something in a book makes it part of a legitimate study and is enough evidence for you to believe that people see things when they're unconcious/dead/near dead that they couldn't possibly see?
1) No all of the books do. Find an estimate number, then place it in your post, then you'll have said something worth while.
2) No, all the studies, all the evidence does, not just the books.
3)I don't know what you mean by the last point, I have no idea why you would have to die to see these things.
There are books.
There are studies.
There is evidence.
There is first hand experience (from me, don't assume you know me, or what I'm bringing forth, or my intents and reasoning...ok? you were wrong there)
There is second hand experience from people all over the world who continually report these type of occurances, impossible as they may seem, yet constant and global.
People! This is not an "ass", we call this, "DOWN-SYNDROME". Note: the laughter and confidence, that is from the "ass", but this is mostly ignorance!
quote:Originally posted by Nephtys-Ra:
Hilarious.
Please, tell me what you are laughing at if it pertains to me.
quote:quote:
A few books is enough to prove the existence
Wrong wrong wrong, you sir are an ass, and fool who is arrogant enough to laugh! Even when he's wrong!
You assume, and you will think like this and ultimately fall to ignorance.
Please. . .don't assume anymore.
quote:quote:
of ghosts/paranormal/etc
I'm sorry this is incorrect! You'd have to use actual terms here!
What exactly is a ghost! If you are into talking about 'sci-fi', then this discussion is not for you! Please, keep it sound!
quote:quote:
but a whole science devoted to physics doesn't seem to faze him.
I'm sorry, I do not condone religion!
quote:
You keep telling us to look at the other side. Why don't you practice what you preach?
If your goal here was to prove this point! Think logically, and to see the truth, then you have failed in every way imaginable!
quote:Originally posted by ate:
People! I will show you how this man put the "ass" in assume!
What assumption have I made?
quote:Originally posted by ate:
1) No all of the books do. Find an estimate number, then place it in your post, then you'll have said something worth while.
An estimate number of what? All of what books? What the hell are you babbling about?
quote:Originally posted by ate:
2) No, all the studies, all the evidence does, not just the books.
How about sharing some cites that describe how these studies were performed.
quote:Originally posted by ate:
3)I don't know what you mean by the last point, I have no idea why you would have to die to see these things.
You don't. You have to be alive to see things. You're the one who believes that unconcious, near dead or dead people have seen things that doctors say they shouldn't have been able to see.
quote:Originally posted by ate:
There are books.
There are studies.
There is evidence.
I've heard the same claims made about ghosts, Bigfoot, Moon hoax conspiracies, etc. Show it or shut up.
quote:Originally posted by ate:
There is second hand experience from people all over the world who continually report these type of occurances, impossible as they may seem, yet constant and global.
What type of occurances? No one is saying that the brain may not be experience things such as white lights or dreams when near death. But what proof is there that they have seen things that aren't logically possible?
quote:Originally posted by ate:
People! This is not an "ass", we call this, "DOWN-SYNDROME". Note: the laughter and confidence, that is from the "ass", but this is mostly ignorance!
Are you feeling okay?
quote:Originally posted by ate:
I'm sorry, I do not condone religion!
You consider either science or physics a religion? What sort of studies do you say proves that people who have NDEs can see the seemingly impossible?
Nephtys-Ra
2006-10-18, 03:19
Stop wasting your time with ate. He doesn't understand the concept of burden of proof or empirical evidence.
Wait a few years for him to hit puberty and mature a little.
Remind me ate, how old are you? I remember you saying 12 or 13.
"d00d, that dusnt matter!1! age isnt anythin!11"
Haha, you wish.
quote:
What assumption have I made?
You assumed you knew where I was pulling my information from, my intent on sending this information, and my background!
Yet, you didn't!
quote:
An estimate number of what? All of what books?
You said what I was talking about made it "legit", I'm talking about all information ever collected! Not just this one book!
quote:
How about sharing some cites that describe how these studies were performed.
You shot first, and asked questions later!
quote:
You have to be alive to see things.
It's more so that you see more, while in a discarnate state! Not less, like you suppose.
quote:
You're the one who believes that unconcious, near dead or dead people have seen things that doctors say they shouldn't have been able to see.
I did not believe for "just any old" reason! http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)
quote:
I've heard the same claims made about ghosts, Bigfoot, Moon hoax conspiracies, etc. Show it or shut up.
I don't see what these have to do with it, therefore I will not show you a thing on these!
quote:
What type of occurances?
Be more specific please, if we are after all, going to have a "civilized" conversation where one gets their information through asking questions and not assuming things.
quote:
No one is saying that the brain may not be experience things such as white lights or dreams when near death.
There are things that happen near death, and there are things that happen after death.
quote:
But what proof is there that they have seen things that aren't logically possible?
I assume (please, correct me if I'm wrong, I won't hold you to it, http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)) that you mean "scientific" proof!
The current understanding of terrestrial science today is a religion, where one's beliefs are passed on to another, and no real objectivity is held, and no understanding of subjectivity is appreciated either! So it's a mix of garbled information, have discovered, half created!
quote:
You consider either science or physics a religion?
You must experience something for yourself!
Until then, if you're accepting that you know something sure about that thing (well...not whether an apple will fall on your head if you throw it directly upwards or not...that's simple! http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)), or that you're accepting something being told to you about that thing, it's considered an adoptive belief system IE: religion!
The truth will not be found that way because you will have preconcieved notions about things you haven't yet come to experience and thus will be shaping your experience of that thing yet to come! Sometimes, resulting in you never experiencing something, because of, and resulting in you never believing it exists! This is a false conception of reality, things are a bit more complex, and yet slightly simpler than some may make it seem! This is a changing time for humanity and our understanding so things are different!
quote:Originally posted by Nephtys-Ra:
Stop wasting your time with ate.
Please, keep your opinions to yourself!
quote:
He doesn't understand the concept of burden of proof or empirical evidence.
I most certainly do! I know that you use it as an escape route to avoid the facts!
quote:
Wait a few years for him to hit puberty and mature a little.
That is personal! Please, you are looking most "unprofessional"!
quote:
Remind me ate, how old are you? I remember you saying 12 or 13.
Hahah, no!
quote:
"d00d, that dusnt matter!1! age isnt anythin!11"
Once again! You've assumed you knew something! Then you failed!
You continue on this path and soon you'll no nothing! HaHaHa ( http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif))
Note: Becoming personal is an escape tactic! Please stay focused, don't become so easily pushed over!
quote:
Haha, you wish.
Wish what?
Edit: I do have hopes!
[This message has been edited by ate (edited 10-18-2006).]
Nephtys-Ra
2006-10-18, 05:16
I'm still in awe that you took the time to break down my post into tiny little segments and respond to every one of them.
Thanks for proving my point.
quote:Originally posted by ate:
You assumed you knew where I was pulling my information from, my intent on sending this information, and my background!
Yet, you didn't!
No, you're the one making assumptions, because I didn't assume any of those things! How did you come to the conclusion that I knew where you got your information, your intent, or your background?
quote:Originally posted by ate:
You said what I was talking about made it "legit", I'm talking about all information ever collected! Not just this one book!
I wasn't asking about one book. I'd like some legitimate strong evidence, but since you don't believe the scientific method is valid, I guess I wasted my time.
quote:Originally posted by ate:
You shot first, and asked questions later!
No, actually I started by asking questions. You're delusional!
quote:Originally posted by ate:
I did not believe for "just any old" reason!
So share what your good reasons are already!
quote:Originally posted by ate:
There are things that happen near death, and there are things that happen after death.
And you have some evidence of what happens after death?
quote:Originally posted by ate:
I assume (please, correct me if I'm wrong, I won't hold you to it, ) that you mean "scientific" proof!
What kind of proof do you prefer?
quote:Originally posted by ate:
The current understanding of terrestrial science today is a religion, where one's beliefs are passed on to another, and no real objectivity is held, and no understanding of subjectivity is appreciated either! So it's a mix of garbled information, have discovered, half created!
That may have been the biggest bunch of uneducated bullshit I have ever read on these forums! "Belief" isn't passed on to others, knowledge is. And you don't have to accept anything. Scientist go through hoops trying top prove previous conclusions false. You think knowledge gathered through science is half created? Is that how we came up with an understanding of cell division, hormones, the invention of antibiotics, etc.?
quote:Originally posted by ate:
You must experience something for yourself!
Is that how you came to the conclusion that 9/11 was a conspiracy?
quote:Originally posted by Nephtys-Ra:
I'm still in awe that you took the time to break down my post into tiny little segments and respond to every one of them.
Thanks for proving my point.
If my response was insufficient please give me some guidance!
quote:Originally posted by Martini:
How did you come to the conclusion that I knew where you got your information, your intent, or your background?
Do you not agree that you posted this:
quote:
Something in a book makes it part of a legitimate study and is enough evidence for you to believe that people see things when they're unconcious/dead/near dead that they couldn't possibly see?
This is what I am refering to!
quote:
I wasn't asking about one book.
You made that statement which implied you knew what makes a legitimate study to me, and what causes me to believe!
Did you not say this!?
quote:
I'd like some legitimate strong evidence, but since you don't believe the scientific method is valid, I guess I wasted my time.
You are only wasting your time if you keep assuming! Like you just did in the very post I am quoting here!
quote:
No, actually I started by asking questions. You're delusional!
You implied something by what you said!
Be objective, you asked for a specific thing! Implying that you expected a specific answer!
If you were truly asking a question, it wouldn't have be presented in that format!
quote:
So share what your good reasons are already!
I can only do this when you stop assuming things and let me exist as something you have no preconcieved opinions about, and when you become willing to hear what I have to say, without insult for the message I am putting forth!
quote:
And you have some evidence of what happens after death?
Do you have evidence of what you dream! :?
quote:
What kind of proof do you prefer?
The kind of reality that exists does not rely on "proof", one can have a certain skepticism, but total skepticism of anything automatically begins to push the reality of that experience away from you, thus both causing and experiencing the results of your beliefs.
The "proof" that I know exists, and that I am talking about is simply what has happened. Nothing more! Anything else is considered speculation!
quote:
"Belief" isn't passed on to others, knowledge is.
Same thing!
quote:
And you don't have to accept anything.
You may not be consciously aware of it, but you do! On some level it must happen!
quote:
Scientist go through hoops trying top prove previous conclusions false.
Maybe they should stick to one understanding and work upward from there! Instead of constantly realizing that their views have become outdated and there is a "new" "set law" of the universe! It seems like a humurous sitcom!
quote:
You think knowledge gathered through science is half created?
Yes!
quote:
Is that how we came up with an understanding of cell division, hormones, the invention of antibiotics, etc.?
Yes! The atom as well! Although there are "set laws", we can change how we percieve them to some extent based on our DNA!
quote:
Is that how you came to the conclusion that 9/11 was a conspiracy?
There is no such conspiracy! Do not be tricked! That is the "common" plan of those many believe to be "in charge"!
quote:Originally posted by Martini:
Originally posted by redzed:
Regardless of an afterlife or not, if there is a process that facilitates an understanding which will enable an easier death, what is there to lose?
Are you saying that learning more about what researchers know about NDEs may help make dying easier? If that's what you're saying, I don't follow the logic.
Thas ok Martini, I've read your posts without seeing your logic either http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif) It's an imperfect communication this one and I'm sure if we were discussing these things over a cup of coffee or a beer it would be much clearer. Thing is the Tibetans teach a system of mind training, and NDE experiences(no matter if involving actual death or no) give circumstantial support to a process similar to the Tibetans. One is able to prepare the mind to be ready for death, to keep a clear mind and a positive attitude -- that could mean the difference between a peaceful death and that suffered by a fearful person overtaken by sudden death.
There would be a benefit to the person undergoing the death experience, but more important the effect on the living. The great minds of psychology identify the fear of death as the underlying fear that drives all other fear. People live in denial of it, they will assert their indifference, they will express anger towards any suggestion they too fear death, but when the time comes?
Logic can only take you so far, beyond that the intuitive sense guides, the gut feeling, the flash of inspiration, love, joy, peace, compassion. Where is the logic in helping other people? Why sponsor a child in faroff Bangladesh? Why do anything if not for self-interest?
The heart has a neurological structure, it has thousands of neurons, like the brain, however the neural pathways leading from the heart to the brain have twice the capacity of those from the brain to the heart. There are many things that are a mystery to the logic of the mind but felt and known deeply in the heart. What I'm saying Martini is IMHO the reason you have not been able to see the logic is because it has to do with compassion, with helping, and similar illogical intents and actions http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)
Namaste http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)
quote:Originally posted by ate:
Wrong wrong wrong, you sir are an ass, and fool who is arrogant enough to laugh! Even when he's wrong!
You assume, and you will think like this and ultimately fall to ignorance.
Please. . .don't assume anymore.
The irony is ate, you seem also to have made an assumption http://www.totse.com/bbs/eek.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/eek.gif) but what troubles is the ad hominems http://www.totse.com/bbs/mad.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/mad.gif) "ass", "fool", "arrogant". How does that help anyone understand anything aside from perhaps it's your pride wanting to satisfy the ego's desire to win? http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)
Having said that I 'get' a lot of your meanings, but feel you should stick with reasoning and leave the passion for loving http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)
Have you experienced an NDE? Has any member of this board experienced an NDE or OBE? Care to share?
Peace http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)
Nephtys-Ra
2006-10-19, 01:35
My point was you had no life, dumbass.
quote:
what troubles is the ad hominems
Yes, you noted my mistake, I'll avoid that next time!
quote:
Have you experienced an NDE?
You could say! Although the experience is not one made of words!
quote:Originally posted by redzed:
Thas ok Martini, I've read your posts without seeing your logic either http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)
Speaking of ad hominem attacks...
quote:Originally posted by redzed:
The heart has a neurological structure, it has thousands of neurons, like the brain, however the neural pathways leading from the heart to the brain have twice the capacity of those from the brain to the heart.
Do you have a cite for this? I would also hope that that cite would explain what sort of capicity you're talking about.
quote:Originally posted by redzed:
There are many things that are a mystery to the logic of the mind but felt and known deeply in the heart. What I'm saying Martini is IMHO the reason you have not been able to see the logic is because it has to do with compassion, with helping, and similar illogical intents and actions http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)
I haven't been able to see your type of logic because I lack compassion?
You believe that things are known in the heart, and you mean that literally?
quote:Originally posted by ate:
You implied something by what you said!
I implied nothing. The questions were just that, questions. It's quite ironic that you're doing all the assuming and accusing me of it.
quote:Originally posted by ate:
I can only do this when you stop assuming things and let me exist as something you have no preconcieved opinions about, and when you become willing to hear what I have to say, without insult for the message I am putting forth!
I can't drop my preconceived opinions that I have of you; I've read enough of your posts. That shouldn't stop you from sharing what your experiences have been.
quote:Originally posted by ate:
Maybe they should stick to one understanding and work upward from there! Instead of constantly realizing that their views have become outdated and there is a "new" "set law" of the universe! It seems like a humurous sitcom!
You would prefer that scientists stuck with one view and were unwavering on changing that view, irregardless of what new evidence refutes that old view? That's exactly why science is not a religion!
quote:Originally posted by ate:
There is no such conspiracy! Do not be tricked! That is the "common" plan of those many believe to be "in charge"!
But you came to the conclusions that you have on 9/11 based on information you have gathered from others, not your own experiences, no?
quote:Originally posted by Martini:
I implied nothing. The questions were just that, questions. It's quite ironic that you're doing all the assuming and accusing me of it.
Well then if I've made the mistake then please clarify this for me.
quote:
Something in a book makes it part of a legitimate study and is enough evidence for you to believe that people see things when they're unconcious/dead/near dead that they couldn't possibly see
quote:
I can't drop my preconceived opinions that I have of you.
Well, I have nothing to do with that! It's up to you whether you want to let go of the past or not!
quote:
You would prefer that scientists stuck with one view and were unwavering on changing that view, irregardless of what new evidence refutes that old view?
No! That is not what I prefer!
I get the feeling you're assuming something here!
Look at your last statement! It's almost if you're sure that you understood correctly, when you haven't!
quote:
But you came to the conclusions that you have on 9/11 based on information you have gathered from others, not your own experiences, no?
Nope! I would not believe it simply because of the evidence of one side or the other! I'd have to see it for myself, which I have! And so have many others, it's not just "me".
quote:Originally posted by ate:
Well, I have nothing to do with that! It's up to you whether you want to let go of the past or not!
What you are doing here is so close to trolling, I'm inclined to give up. Either bring up your experiences or don't, but at least stop making whether or not you're going to post them conditional on whether or not I have preconceived notions about you.
quote:Originally posted by ate:
No! That is not what I prefer!
I get the feeling you're assuming something here!
Again, I'm asking you. I think that was a logical assumption based on what you said.
You said:
"Maybe they should stick to one understanding and work upward from there!"
It sure seems that "you would prefer that scientists stick with one view and were unwavering on changing that view" based on that statement.
What are you so against assumptions for? When your ideas are all over the place, I have to make assumptions to try to figure out what the hell you're talking about! But I have this feeling that you're all about being vague and merely trolling.
quote:Originally posted by Martini:
What you are doing here is so close to trolling, I'm inclined to give up.
Yes! Most people give up when faced with a challenge, or option for change! Most people fear it! It's not uncommon on this planet, in fact it's very 'popular', yet not a good choice, in my opion!
quote:
Either bring up your experiences or don't.
Yes, that's the way it works!
quote:
but at least stop making whether or not you're going to post them conditional on whether or not I have preconceived notions about you.
I'm making the decision on whether you want to hear them or not!
quote:
Again, I'm asking you. I think that was a logical assumption based on what you said.
If the following proves logical, then yes, if not...no!
quote:
You said:
"Maybe they should stick to one understanding and work upward from there!"
quote:
It sure seems that "you would prefer that scientists stick with one view and were unwavering on changing that view" based on that statement.
No, that's not what I prefer, you are incorrect! Next time, go "what do you prefer?" Then you will be correct because you will know directly from the source, IE: me!
It's not difficult, please don't go around that, it's neccessary if you don't want to end up misconcieving things or making them up!
quote:
What are you so against assumptions for?
I'm not, I'm only against things which are illogical, it's illogical to assume somehting on the basis of what you know, when what you know has no real relation to the subject that you're assuming!
Experience with the subject, by your own individual body/mind fixes this!
quote:
When your ideas are all over the place.
If you were right about your assumptions in the past, this statement would have been true, but you haven't been right so this statement is false!
Ask me next time! Work through it! Don't skip just because you think you "get it".
quote:
I have to make assumptions to try to figure out what the hell you're talking about!
You made incorrect one based upon your preconceptions!
This happened more than once, even after I told you it would happen again if you continued to think like you are!
quote:
But I have this feeling that you're all about being vague and merely trolling.
Sorry, don't believe in that! You're entitled to what you want!
But don't let your own preconceptions, perceptions, and desires get in the way of taking in new information, have patience!
quote:Originally posted by Martini:
Originally posted by redzed:
Thas ok Martini, I've read your posts without seeing your logic either http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif)
Speaking of ad hominem attacks...
Martini, I put a big smiley face http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/biggrin.gif) along with some friendly words and you accuse me of AD! http://www.totse.com/bbs/eek.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/eek.gif) http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)
quote:Originally posted by redzed:
The heart has a neurological structure, it has thousands of neurons, like the brain, however the neural pathways leading from the heart to the brain have twice the capacity of those from the brain to the heart.
Do you have a cite for this? I would also hope that that cite would explain what sort of capicity you're talking about.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Google Heart Brain.
Peace http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)
quote:Originally posted by redzed:
Google Heart Brain.
You're kidding, right? You made an outrageous claim about the workings of the heart/brain, I shouldn't have to sift through tons of Google hits for some justification of your claims. How about you backing up your claims?
Can you answer my other two questions:
I haven't been able to see your type of logic because I lack compassion?
You believe that things are known in the heart, and you mean that literally?
You may percieve this as unrelated but I think you'd get more answers if you asked questions in a different format.
quote:Originally posted by Martini:
You're kidding, right? You made an outrageous claim about the workings of the heart/brain, I shouldn't have to sift through tons of Google hits for some justification of your claims. How about you backing up your claims?
"Outrageous claim"? http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif) Common knowledge in the public domain -- a simple google search will bring up all the info you'll need. That's as good as giving you a cite, you will find out there is an abundance of science on the subject. What's your interest? Do you have some info regarding NDE's? The topic is NDE's you seem to want to pursue a debate?
Demanding attitude, scornful attacks, inflation of simple statements like turning some friendly words about the necessary shortcomings of internet communications, into a personal attack. Martini I truly apologise if I have offended you that is not my intent.
I have learned much from participation on this board, there is a general spirit of comraderie amongst the genuine spiritual seekers and a readiness to help others in their search for answers. Others seem to have no motivation other than to attack and harass in what seems to be a display more to do with egotistical pride than any search for truth and meaning. They seem to have already decided they know all there is to know and are able to instruct in the correct rules of logic and thought. Why bother? If there is no belief in god or the divine, in a spiritual element -- why come to a forum about those things?
Are you ready to die? Will you have an NDE? Given there's at least a one in five chance what sort of an NDE would you want? If it's a frightening one as some report, what sort of a death would that be regardless of an afterlife? Is it possible, in knowing about the process that produces NDE's, to 'tailor' a pleasant death experience?
Namaste http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)
quote:Originally posted by redzed:
"Outrageous claim"? http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)
Yes, an outrageous claim. You said that there are more connections going from the heart to the brain then from the brain to the heart, and then went on to say that this has something to do with how things can be known in the heart.
quote:Originally posted by redzed:
Common knowledge in the public domain -- a simple google search will bring up all the info you'll need.
C'mon, you know how things work. When someone asks for a cite on claims made, telling that person to use Google is not an acceptable retort.
quote:Originally posted by redzed:
What's your interest? Do you have some info regarding NDE's? The topic is NDE's you seem to want to pursue a debate?
Yes, when people make outrageous claims, I ask questions. Surprise, surprise. You always act as if that's unacceptable behavior and debate shouldn't be a part of this forum.
quote:Originally posted by redzed:
Demanding attitude, scornful attacks, inflation of simple statements like turning some friendly words about the necessary shortcomings of internet communications, into a personal attack. Martini I truly apologise if I have offended you that is not my intent.
Based on our past interactions, I found it a little hard to believe that you were just being friendly, especially when later in the same post you said, "What I'm saying Martini is IMHO the reason you have not been able to see the logic is because it has to do with compassion, with helping, and similar illogical intents and actions". If that was not an insinuation that I lack compassion, then you should have responded to my question asking if that's what you were doing (especially since I asked twice).
quote:Originally posted by redzed:
I have learned much from participation on this board, there is a general spirit of comraderie amongst the genuine spiritual seekers and a readiness to help others in their search for answers.
I'm all for helping others searching for answers. But I am not a spiritual seeker.
quote:Originally posted by redzed:
Others seem to have no motivation other than to attack and harass in what seems to be a display more to do with egotistical pride than any search for truth and meaning.
I am not harassing anyone and my "attacks" are challenges to come up with reliable cites for claims that this or that has been proven by "studies". And yes, it's all about a search for truth.
quote:Originally posted by redzed:
They seem to have already decided they know all there is to know and are able to instruct in the correct rules of logic and thought. Why bother? If there is no belief in god or the divine, in a spiritual element -- why come to a forum about those things?
But you're okay with those who think they can instruct others on what God is like and what happens when one is near death? If not, I've never seen you complain about it. You seem to only complain to those who are skeptical (which just further hi-jacks the thread). This forum is not only for those who are spiritual and believe. The subject is God, gods, religion, etc. and it's for ALL to discuss, even us atheist who reject in believing in something without any good reason at all.
quote:Originally posted by redzed:
Are you ready to die? Will you have an NDE? Given there's at least a one in five chance what sort of an NDE would you want?
How did you come to the conclusion that there is a one out of five chance of me having a NDE?
quote:Originally posted by redzed:
If it's a frightening one as some report, what sort of a death would that be regardless of an afterlife? Is it possible, in knowing about the process that produces NDE's, to 'tailor' a pleasant death experience?
I doubt it. If it's certain chemicals being produced when near death for instance, I don't see how knowledge of what's going on would give one the power to alter the NDE he gets (if he gets one) when his time comes.
Why is it when you ignore my questions, and when I ask you to answer them in another post, you continue to ignore them?
quote:Originally posted by Martini:
Why is it when you ignore my questions, and when I ask you to answer them in another post, you continue to ignore them?
Cause you are hostile and I don't have the time or the desire to argue with you.
Heart-Brain (http://www.heartmath.org/index-hm.html)
Peace http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)
quote:Originally posted by redzed:
Cause you are hostile and I don't have the time or the desire to argue with you.
That's obviously not true, since you do answer some of my questions, you just pick and choose. You never seem to pick the ones that question your foolish statements.
quote:Originally posted by redzed:
www.heartmath.org/index-hm.html (http://www.heartmath.org/index-hm.html) Heart-Brain
Since you don't want to play fair, I'll let someone else pick apart how your link to a pseudo-scientific scam of a gadget proves nothing about your claims. That's if anyone even thinks it's worth while.
Someone needs some tea, and a good back rub.
quote:Originally posted by Martini:
Since you don't want to play fair, I'll let someone else pick apart how your link to a pseudo-scientific scam of a gadget proves nothing about your claims. That's if anyone even thinks it's worth while.
More scorn http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif) you ask for a link, get it then pour scorn on an advertisement without even considering the scope of the site. It seems nothing could satisfy your demanding attitude?
On Topic:
NDE's share similar stages to the bardos of The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying. The intent of that teaching is to ease the suffering and passage of the person experiencing death. If this is a natural process, why would the human brain evolve such a process? How would it impact on survival of the fittest? Maybe there's a benefit in comforting of the bereaved if a person faces death with a clear mind?
Peace http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)
More on heart - brain, interesting to note the heart develops in the fetus before the brain.
...our hearts may actually be the 'intelligent force' behind the intuitive thoughts and feelings we all experience." (http://www.therealessentials.com/followyourheart.html)
Scientists have induced NDE's thru various means, is this proof a brain/mind process occurs which may also happen during death?
Peace http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)
Clarphimous
2006-10-22, 01:55
According to that source:
Heart --> 40,000 nerve cells.
And from other sources:
Brain -- 100,000,000,000 nerve cells.
Not even close. You could do some more research on it, but I'm betting that what that article says is a huge exaggeration.
quote:Originally posted by Clarphimous:
Not even close. You could do some more research on it, but I'm betting that what that article says is a huge exaggeration.
There's lots more support such as:
Looking at the heart biologically, it's an amazing phenomenon. It can beat on its own without any connection to the brain, and beats 100,00 times a day and approximately 40 million times a year. It starts to form in the fetus before there is a brain. Scientists still don't know exactly what triggers this self-initiated heartbeat. (http://www.deepplanet.com/articles.asp?ArticleID=52)
Peace http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)
quote:Originally posted by redzed:
More scorn http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif) you ask for a link, get it then pour scorn on an advertisement without even considering the scope of the site. It seems nothing could satisfy your demanding attitude?
The demanding attitude arguement is getting ridiculous. Answering all my questions would be satisfying, instead of just responding to the ones you pick. I didn't ask for a site; I asked for a cite. What scientific studies show that "things can be known in the heart"?
quote:Originally posted by redzed:
If this is a natural process, why would the human brain evolve such a process?
If this is a natural process? As opposed to what?
You're jumping to the conclusion that there must necessarily be a reason that NDEs happen and it's something that evolved. What happens during the dying process, is not necessary to survival. Any ancestors that didn't have NDEs wouldn't have had any less success at reproducing than those who did.
quote:Originally posted by redzed:
Scientists have induced NDE's thru various means, is this proof a brain/mind process occurs which may also happen during death?
What are you asking here? A brain/mind process? There's no such thing as proof that something may happen.
quote:Originally posted by redzed:
There's lots more support such as:
Looking at the heart biologically, it's an amazing phenomenon. It can beat on its own without any connection to the brain, and beats 100,00 times a day and approximately 40 million times a year. It starts to form in the fetus before there is a brain. Scientists still don't know exactly what triggers this self-initiated heartbeat.
What exactly is that supposed to "support"?