I'm very ambivalent when it comes to religion, but I hesitate to label my "beliefs" (or lack thereof?) as agnostic or athiest.

I don't exactly believe things we do "wrong" are "sins" exactly, but not "right."

Right and wrong are relative terms. Ancient people believed human sacrifice was the right thing to do. Who are we to say that's "wrong?" It was just as much a part of their religion as communion is a part of christianity.

I won't pretend to know a lot about specific religions. I went to church for years but all that did was fuel my hatred for it. I didn't learn a lot, probably because I didn't want to.

But to get to the point, I think that we all have our own sets of values of right and wrong (along with laws we should follow). So tell me this... When you commit a sin, or something generally considered "wrong," who are you offending? You might feel guilty for telling a lie, but do you feel guilty because it goes against your morals, or because you know your religion disagrees with that?

I personally don't believe any higher power is out there keeping track of what we do. I rarely feel bad for lying, or being judgemental. But when I do something that does make me feel bad, I believe it's only a "sin" against myself. I feel bad because it goes against my own morals.

Does that make any sense? I guess what I'm really trying to ask is, if you do something that your religion or society says is wrong, do you feel bad because it's supposed to be wrong, or because you honestly think there's a higher power that isn't happy with you? Are you concerned with what you actually did, and how to make it better, or are you concerned with saving your own ass so you can have a happy afterlife?

I'm an athiest so I don't worry about some higher power judging me. Society changes it's laws and rules over the years to benefit the government. So I don't really worry about sinning.

I pretty much do what I feel like. Who is anybody else to tell me, what is "right" and what is "wrong"? Every person has their own veiws on whats "right" and "wrong", and nobody is more qualified to judge you, than yourself.

Edit: Spelling.



[This message has been edited by Source (edited 10-24-2006).]

At the end of the day do you feel your actions have contributed towards good? Most people experience a guilt that religion uses to its benefit. Sin is a term that is only useful within the context of a religion.

Is it useful to compare the sins of different religions? Not really unless it amuses you. The cup of coffee that I am drinking would be considered sinful in some circles of Christianity but beneficial (in limited amounts) in Taoist thought.

If you don't have a well defined code of right and wrong and can't find it within yourself to acknowledge your shortcomings and strive to do better then perhaps there is a religion that can provide the foundation that you need.

In my philosophy, there is no such thing as "sin." Ther ARE times when one makes choices not in one's best interests, however.

But God is never offended--for one thing, he is above such petty human emotions--for another, he loves us all unconditionally.

You're mostly offending yourself and those around you, can you name a sin that doesn't hurt you and the people around you?

quote:Originally posted by w33d:

You're mostly offending yourself and those around you, can you name a sin that doesn't hurt you and the people around you?

Jacking off? Homosexuality? Pre-marital sex?

quote:Originally posted by elfstone:

Jacking off? Homosexuality? Pre-marital sex?

Guilty.

Not guilty.

Guilty.

2/3

What's wrong with masturbation? And what's the difference between sex before wearing a ring and sex after wearing a ring? The sin should be unprotected sex before being in a steady, serious relationship that might last.

Basically, if I ever feel like I did something wrong it's usually because it negatively affected someone else and I might feel bad about that. That is, if I care about them.

For instance, I felt really bad about cheating on a girlfriend once, but not because I was having unprotected premarital sex with a girl I had met that night and going against societal or religious values.

quote:Originally posted by ArmsMerchant:

In my philosophy, there is no such thing as "sin." Ther ARE times when one makes choices not in one's best interests, however.

But God is never offended--for one thing, he is above such petty human emotions--for another, he loves us all unconditionally.



O RLY?

Why is there a hell then?

"I love you so you have to burn for all eternity. Have a nice day!"

IMHO I believe that a lot of religion is bullshit, and just follow my own morals as a guideline.

If it doesn't harm anyone in a major way, fine by me.

Laws - depends what's happening - murder I can understand, but stuff like parking meters are fucking stupid.

If I ever committed a sin, it would not be towards some bearded hippie with wings, it would be against my morals and what >I< think is right.

Sin is mearly an attempt to explain something which goes against the will and nature of God.

In my oppinion, this is a developed condition through religion, there is no "sin", only actions, which deep down go against the loving and positive nature of existence.

A sin supposedly offends God, but really all it offends is a religious person attempting up uphold God's will. As they always say "we are not perfect", ergo that which seems morally reprehensible, sinful and disgraceful (and should "rightly" be punished through eternal damnation in the fire/worms/whatever) is actually mearly an inability to move beyond human obsession over right and wrong, and in some ways to "think like God".

If "God" exists, I don't think "he" can, or ever will be offended, omnipotent beings are beyond these kind of shenanigans, k?

People, other than yourself. You know, the ones that care. The ones that worry about you. Dissappointment is a terrible thing to feel. Its harder to explain, Like "I told you so."

And then someone makes it worse.

And maybe he is sorry, and Just wanted to forget, Is what he did worse than anyone else? You could argue "Its not right to Kill people." People do it anyway. It happens all the time. If someone wrongs someone else, than its a moral sin. But, what happens when everyone is dead?

When everyone decides to kill everyone, in hopes that they can survive. Who is left? Who makes the rules then? God? meh. I wouldn't place my bets on it.

My whole point, was just

because you don't approve of what people, do dosen't mean its wrong.You won't go to hell, you would only be punishing yourself. Gods kinda like a reward. Like OMFG its over. And then what?

I can continue this later. wanna see some respones

quote:Originally posted by sh0x0rz3r:



O RLY?

Why is there a hell then?

"I love you so you have to burn for all eternity. Have a nice day!"



Since you ask--there is no such place as Hell. It is a myth, created by the various priesthoods over the years as a means of crowd control.

My goodness, even Pope John Paul II knew this--in 1999, he pointed out that Hell is not a place, but a state of mind we enter when we consciously reject God.

God does not judge or punish.

quote:Originally posted by QueenOfHearts:



My whole point, was just

because you don't approve of what people, do dosen't mean its wrong.You won't go to hell, you would only be punishing yourself. Gods kinda like a reward. Like OMFG its over. And then what?

I can continue this later. wanna see some respones

I try to argue that with people.

But where do you draw the line? Yeah, most people think killing people is wrong. Who are we to tell people it's morally wrong, if they don't believe that? Usually the law will keep people from doing that, but you can't tell somebody their morals are wrong.

I wonder if I even know what I'm talking about.

And QueenOfHearts, who the hell are you??

quote:Originally posted by sh0x0rz3r:



O RLY?

Why is there a hell then?

"have to burn for all eternity. Have a nice day!"

I know this is going of topic but it angewrs me when people say that. Hell is not eternal. The original translation of hell was a fire outside of Jerusalem. The original quotations says sinners worms shall burn in hell. However, worm is a maggot in translations. Maggots have a life cycle, which means they transform then die. So basically they shall burn and die. Just like the original fire burned out, because no more criminals were burnt there , hell will run out of "fuel" and it will stop. So will Hell. Do you think God would be so cruel. He would have given them all the chances, but they still ignore it. They deserve it, but God would not make it eternal.

quote:Originally posted by owned:

The original quotations says sinners worms shall burn in hell. However, worm is a maggot in translations. Maggots have a life cycle, which means they transform then die. So basically they shall burn and die.

Unless they are magical everlasting maggots:

Isaiah 66:24

And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.



quote:Originally posted by owned:

hell will run out of "fuel" and it will stop.

Nope.

Matthew 18:8

And if thy hand, or thy foot, scandalize thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee. It is better for thee to go into life maimed or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into everlasting fire.

Matthew 25:41

Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, which was prepared for the devil and his angels.

Matthew 25:46

And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

[Note how everlasting life is contrasted with everlasting punishment; both are everlasting!]

Mark 9:42-43

And if thy hand scandalize thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life, maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into unquenchable fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not extinguished.

2 Thessalonians 1:9

Who shall suffer eternal punishment in destruction, from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his power. . . .

Jude 1:7

As Sodom and Gomorrha and the neighburing cities, in like manner, having given themselves to fornication and going after other flesh, were made an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire.

quote:Originally posted by owned:

So will Hell. Do you think God would be so cruel.

If you've read the bible in its entirety, it should be obvious to you that God is not beyond performing seemingly unjustifiable cruel acts.

quote:Originally posted by Martini:

Originally posted by owned:

The original quotations says sinners worms shall burn in hell. However, worm is a maggot in translations. Maggots have a life cycle, which means they transform then die. So basically they shall burn and die.

Unless they are magical everlasting maggots:

Isaiah 66:24

And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.



quote:Originally posted by owned:

hell will run out of "fuel" and it will stop.

Nope.

Matthew 18:8

And if thy hand, or thy foot, scandalize thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee. It is better for thee to go into life maimed or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into everlasting fire.

Matthew 25:41

Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, which was prepared for the devil and his angels.

Matthew 25:46

And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

[Note how everlasting life is contrasted with everlasting punishment; both are everlasting!]

Mark 9:42-43

And if thy hand scandalize thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life, maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into unquenchable fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not extinguished.

2 Thessalonians 1:9

Who shall suffer eternal punishment in destruction, from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his power. . . .

Jude 1:7

As Sodom and Gomorrha and the neighburing cities, in like manner, having given themselves to fornication and going after other flesh, were made an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire.

quote:Originally posted by owned:

So will Hell. Do you think God would be so cruel.

If you've read the bible in its entirety, it should be obvious to you that God is not beyond performing seemingly unjustifiable cruel acts.



I have a article to counter that. One minute.

quote:Originally posted by reformed_spammer:

I have a article to counter that. One minute.

http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

An article doesn't contradict the bible, silly. If you can't see why, you don't deserve to have it explained to you.

quote:Originally posted by Martini:

[QUOTE]

If you've read the bible in its entirety, it should be obvious to you that God is not beyond performing seemingly unjustifiable cruel acts.



Wow all this time I thought those people were using God as an excuse to either commit cruel deeds or to explain natures seemingly cruel occurrences.