quote:Originally posted by Androx:

Why would God create a soul he knows will end up in hell?

I thought that this deserved its own thread.

Maybe god only knows all possible paths your life can take, but it's up to you which one you'll take.

I'm an atheist. Just entertaining the idea.

He gives you choice. You're the one that chooses to go to Hell based on what you do in this life. All this life is really, is a test.

'Cause he's a douche.

I think what the OP is getting at is that if God is truly omniscient--knows everything that has and will happen--he knew when he "created" you whether you were bound for Heaven or Hell. This seems to preclude alternative possibilities, and thus (on most accounts) free will. How do you reconcile this?



Entheogenic

^God can create a rock that even he cannot lift?

quote:Originally posted by MidnightRambler:

He gives you choice. You're the one that chooses to go to Hell based on what you do in this life. All this life is really, is a test.

Indeed

Entheogenic brings up a very valid point. A point that I have not heard answered yet. Free will cannot exist if God is all knowing. Most Christians do not believe in Predetermination, however, if they believe their God is all-knowing then they must. I hope I made sense.

Another thing, it's not really a choice...Either burn in Hell or worship me...

[This message has been edited by AnAsTaSiO (edited 10-26-2006).]

^Its more like some guy holding a gun to your head and saying "do what i say or youre going to die."

Disproving the Traditional View of God:

1) For God to judge us on beliefs/actions and not be malicious, he must provide a definite means accessible to everyone for knowing what the proper beliefs/actions are.

2) Science is the accepted culmination of all of our modern knowledge, and contains no viable means of knowing what God wants us to do.

3) God then, if he exists, either doesn't judge us or is malicious.

In either case, it becomes futile to attempt to worship him in hopes of salvation. He's either a dick or he doesn't reward or punish us for whatever we do/believe and so it doesn't really matter and we should live for ourselves.

quote:Originally posted by Iam:



In either case, it becomes futile to attempt to worship him in hopes of salvation. He's either a dick or he doesn't reward or punish us for whatever we do/believe and so it doesn't really matter and we should live for ourselves.

Wrong.

If you know about Him, how is it futile to worship Him.

You know the rules.

Don't follow them, and you're the cause of your own punishment.

Define what hell is... etc.



Maybe god hadnt planned life as is....

maybe,

we make our own heaven...>.>?<<?><>? http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/tongue.gif)

quote:Originally posted by Peanutbutter Soup:

'Cause he's a douche.

also an aetheist...but...

if there is a god, i dont believe he would interfere with life on earth, coz if he did wed have no free will...

quote:Originally posted by AnAsTaSiO:

Entheogenic brings up a very valid point. A point that I have not heard answered yet. Free will cannot exist if God is all knowing. Most Christians do not believe in Predetermination, however, if they believe their God is all-knowing then they must. I hope I made sense.

Another thing, it's not really a choice...Either burn in Hell or worship me...



But it is a choice. You choose to go to Hell based on your decisions.

I've been over this several times with Digi and others. I have yet to receive a valid answer.

If Hell does indeed exist in the sense that most Bible thumpers would have us believe, then God cannot possibly be a merciful being.

If God creates me knowing full well that I am ultimately destined for eternal torment and punishment, then he is showing me no mercy. Non-existence would be the merciful alternative to an eternity of suffering.

For the free-will junkies: You would argue that it is my own choices in this life that lead to my punishment. That may be true. However, an omniscient deity would know at the very moment of my creation that I was destined for suffering, regardless of whatever salvation may be offered to me in this life. An omnipotent, omnibenevolent being would have no excuse nor reason to create such a creature.

He created you, yes, but you chose your own past.

To say you'd be better off not even existing is pointless, since you can choose to follow Him right now.

He gave you a chance, regardless of the fact that he knew/knows what you'd do.

quote:Originally posted by Merlinman2005:



To say you'd be better off not even existing is pointless, since you can choose to follow Him right now.

He gave you a chance, regardless of the fact that he knew/knows what you'd do.

QFT.

quote:Originally posted by MidnightRambler:

QFT.

Damnit, I keep thinking that means quit fuckin' talking

arg

[This message has been edited by Merlinman2005 (edited 10-26-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Merlinman2005:

He created you, yes, but you chose your own past.

To say you'd be better off not even existing is pointless, since you can choose to follow Him right now.

He gave you a chance, regardless of the fact that he knew/knows what you'd do.



Free will and omniscience cannot coexist.

You can't have both.

If God were truly omniscient, He would have known for certain (even before He supposedly said "Let there be light") that you would choose not to follow Him. His knowing your decisions before you make them negates any possibility of you making any choice other than what was pre-determined. If God were truly omniscient, your *free will* would be merely an illusion. As a matter of fact, if the future was known for certain by anyone at all, free will could not exist.

If an omniscient God created you, already knowing full well that you would reject Him (thus condemning you to eternal torture) before you were even created, He would not be omnibenevolent.





[This message has been edited by truckfixr (edited 10-27-2006).]

Merlinman:

You're not paying attention. As I have already pointed out, offering choices (i.e. salvation or damnation) means absolutely nothing if the outcome is already known.

If I offer a man 50 dollars, knowing with 100% certainty that he will reject the money, does my offer hold any significance whatsoever? Also, how can this situation speak for my generous and noble character? I knew he wouldn't take the money... (I'm trying to keep this simple.)

Moving on.

I could choose to follow your beliefs. I choose not do so. If eternal torment is my punishment, then your God is not omnibenevolent. He could have chosen to completely avoid my creation, yet I exist. If you are correct, then I have been created to suffer for an eternity. Non-existence would be the merciful alternative.

Now, as Truckfixr was saying, free-will and omniscience cannot coexist. Free-will is simply our way of observing the unpredictability of our future actions. If one could accurately predict the future, then the freedom to choose one of any random possible actions would be essentially non-existent. The one performing the act may believe that they are freely choosing, yet this is impossible if the outcome is predetermined.

Please present a valid argument against these points. Repeating the same statements again and again will do nothing for your argument.

What argument can I possibly give you?

You've already stated where you stand: Free Will and omniscience can't exist together. That tells me your stance on the issue.

Unfortunately, I believe otherwise. So there's no point in me trying to prove something against that, because your mind is already made up, as is mine.

It would truly be futile, for my argument relies on the fact that though someone already knows what you will do, that doesn't change the fact that you still will choose (with the fought-over free will I believe you still have, and you believe you do not) your own path, and reach the one of which this seer/prophet/deity already had knowledge of.

So in this case, I say we agree to disagree, since I'm not able to present an argument that will influence the way you feel towards this topic.

Not good enough.

Half of my argument does not even hinge on the existence or non-existence of free-will. That is why I didn't make much mention of it until someone else had brought up the point.

Even if I am utterly free to choose damnation over salvation, God knew that I would do so. If his omniscience can truly coincide with my freedom to choose whichever path I wish to take, it still does not change the fact that he would have created a being that was ultimately destined for eternal torment and misery. He did not HAVE to create me. He chose to do so.

And for the record, I never stated that I believe myself to be lacking free-will. I don't believe in the all-knowing deity. You do.

[This message has been edited by UnknownVeritas (edited 10-27-2006).]

No I don't.

Atheist here.

Excellent contribution.

And God didn't just pop you into existance. You came about because of your parents.

If God only let those who were destined for Heaven be born, then did the other souls even exist? Where would the supposed Hellborn be? In Hell already? No, since they didn't even get the chance to sin. Non-existant, not exactly, because then every thing that doesn't exist could be that way because God saw a flaw in them. So what happens?

People get born. God provides them with the ability to choose Him or Hell. God knows what you will choose. You end up at your destination, because He gave you a chance.

1. If God created anything and everything then yes he did, directly or indirectly, 'pop' me into existence.

2. That's the whole point. Why would an omnibenevolent being create a soul bound for Hell?

3. Refer to my analogy. There is no benevolence to an offering that you know shall not be received.

The analogy would be more accurate if you were offering EVERYBODY money. Not just one person. Because EVERYONE gets the chance from God. "Hey, free money, ya want it?"

A few people you know will not accept, yet you still offer it to them, since they are part of EVERYBODY. Refusing to offer it to them would seem unkind, or unfair.

But how would this carry over metaphorically? Refusing to give a chance to those souls who you know won't accept it. No chance equals no offer. Yet how would this make itself known? We don't know what else He didn't let come into existance. Maybe hey, we were supposed to blow ourselves up a decade ago, but He put a stop on that soul. Never made. Hey, you should probably be thanking Him. But how could you ever even know? Hell, perhaps He's stopped the creation of countless other Hellbound souls, knowing that some still need to be made in order for those alive to not be robotic servants who only live for His will. Some accept. Some don't.

But still, the offer's open for everyone else, you know, those who will accept it.

So everyone who wanted salvation gets it. But in reality, there are those without it. Why? Because.

Sorry, no.

We were discussing my supposed eternally hellbound soul. No one else's. That is the entire point of the debate. You say he's offering me salvation. His offer means nothing if I choose to reject it, of which he is fully aware. Hence my analogy.

I fail to see the point of your third paragraph. We can't know what existence God has allowed or halted? Maybe he has avoided creating several hellbound souls? Okay. That wouldn't change my situation as one of the condemned. I think you're missing the definition of Omnibenevolent.

By the way, the "Just because" bullshit argument holds no water.

I don't understand what you people do not understand. Free Will cannot exist is god is all-knowing...b/c even before I was born, he would know my fate...

Why is it so difficult to comprehend that?

The problem lies in perception. If we remain uncertain of our future outcome, though it may be predetermined, we will at least hold on to the illusion of free will.

The fun part is considering God's potential for free-will.

quote:Originally posted by Merlinman2005:

Wrong.

If you know about Him, how is it futile to worship Him.

You know the rules.

Don't follow them, and you're the cause of your own punishment.

Actually I don't know the the rules. I have never heard God give a speech on his rules, have you?

All we have is the word of man on those rules. Give me one good reason I should listen to people that were practically cave men? You're forgetting that long after this, people used to born "witch's" at the stake, and we all know how stupid that idea was...

quote:Originally posted by Iam:

Disproving the Traditional View of God:

1) For God to judge us on beliefs/actions and not be malicious, he must provide a definite means accessible to everyone for knowing what the proper beliefs/actions are.

2) Science is the accepted culmination of all of our modern knowledge, and contains no viable means of knowing what God wants us to do.

3) God then, if he exists, either doesn't judge us or is malicious.

In either case, it becomes futile to attempt to worship him in hopes of salvation. He's either a dick or he doesn't reward or punish us for whatever we do/believe and so it doesn't really matter and we should live for ourselves.

Erm...

I agree if by 'live for ourselves' you mean the human race, as opposed to living just for your own personal gain.

quote:Originally posted by Merlinman2005:

Wrong.

If you know about Him, how is it futile to worship Him.

You know the rules.

Don't follow them, and you're the cause of your own punishment.

What are you talking about? Know about him in the sense that I have described as being the only possibilities for God?

1) He's malicious ---> What's the point in worshipping a malicious being? Your worship will not dissuade his maliciousness.

2) He doesn't judge ----> What's the point in worshipping a non-judgemental being? He will regard as the same if we judge or not, and therefore it makes the most sense just to live for ourselves.

If you don't mean that we 'know about him' in the context of how I have described, I need you to show that my argument is wrong. I don't by any means 'know the rules'. Religionists can easily claim that their path is the one to knowing God's will, but claiming such is futile, and it must be understood that science (the epitome of what we do, in fact, know ) doesn't recognize such. Therefore, if he exists he hasn't provided a definite means for us to know his will...



Edit: Ian, I meant live as you see fit. I'm not discussing morality or how a man should live right now, merely that we should live according to however we decide to live (in cooperation or in selfishness) rather than fruitlessly trying to appease a God who is either malicious, nonexistent, or non-judgemental.

[This message has been edited by Iam (edited 10-27-2006).]