I was at a water park, and I injured my back being stupid on a ride. So I think I slipped a disc or pinched a nerve. So I went like 5 straight months of it having bad pain every time I stood up, and I could feel pressure changes in the air like I was old and stuff.

So the guy was on TV and said "I feel someone watching has a back problem, slipped disc from an injury." followed by a "In the name of Jesus..." and it never hurt fromt hat point on.

Jesus FTW!

Anybody going to touch this?

Provide before and after xrays or CAT scans or STFU.

Anecdotal evidence proves nothing.

[This message has been edited by Frontier Psychiatrist (edited 10-29-2006).]

Which is more likely

What every you problem was healed, fell into place, or made better by the placebo effect

Or

Big invisible man in the sky not only used his magic God power to heal you just at that moment but also communicated to the TV preacher to say what he did and on top of that let you suffer all the time until you fulfilled his postulate of "If you watch this tv show you will be healed"?

[This message has been edited by Q777 (edited 10-29-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by truckfixr:

Provide before and after xrays or CAT scans or STFU.



All I know is that it hurt everyday until up to that point. It wasn't just a coincidence or a placebo.

quote:Originally posted by Jojoman:

It wasn't just a coincidence or a placebo.

You're sure that it wasn't a coincidence or a placebo effect and you're also sure it was the power of Jesus. Care to explain one by one how you came to those certainties?

quote:Originally posted by Jojoman:



All I know is that it hurt everyday until up to that point. It wasn't just a coincidence or a placebo.

All you know is that it hurt every day until up to that point.

You have absolutly no way of knowing whether or not the pain ended due to placebo effect or coincidence.

Would coincidence really make a different?

I mean it's like.

"Your pain went away for no special reason. It just happened by coincidence."

Or.

"Your pain went away for a reason, it happened because someone wanted it to happen."

Isn't a coincidence pretty much the same thing as a universal force creating the event to happen?

I mean...you don't really think things just happen out of thin air do you? Of course there is something within this universe that is actually controlling things, as we sit here like puppets bounded by these simple laws and guiding our lives only partially as something else basically creates everything.

You really think there's nothing above this level of ignorance about all things? That it's just unknown?

In a creation? In a standing presentation of matter and energy? Just a random play?

What is the point of that?

http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

It's sound so hilarious....

quote:Originally posted by Q777:

Which is more likely

What every you problem was healed, fell into place, or made better by the placebo effect

Or

Big invisible man in the sky not only used his magic God power to heal you just at that moment but also communicated to the TV preacher to say what he did and on top of that let you suffer all the time until you fulfilled his postulate of "If you watch this tv show you will be healed"?



That's just stupid, you're about as intelligent as a Christian evangelic. You know why? Because you're thinking exactly like one.



[This message has been edited by ate (edited 10-30-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by ate:



That's just stupid, you're about as intelligent as a Christian evangelic. You know why? Because you're thinking exactly like one.



Please elaborate.

quote:Originally posted by ate:

Would coincidence really make a different?

I mean it's like.

"Your pain went away for no special reason. It just happened by coincidence."

Or.

"Your pain went away for a reason, it happened because someone wanted it to happen."



Yes, there is a major difference between pain naturally subsiding at around the same time a television evangelist says he's going to make someone's back pain disappear and that evangelist or Jesus doing the actual healing.

If you don't agree with that, please start another thread if you'd like to discuss that further. It seems that everyone in this thread including the OP already sees the difference.

[/b][/QUOTE]

Yes, there is a major difference between pain naturally subsiding at around the same time a television evangelist says he's going to make someone's back pain disappear and that evangelist or Jesus doing the actual healing.

[/quote][/b]

But I don't believe that anything but a universal force would cause the healing.

Sure another entity could utilize that force, IE: humans existing and living as one example.

But I'm not sure the force would literally come from the symbol of a religion or a single person themselves, they would only guide it in my eyes.

quote:

If you don't agree with that, please start another thread if you'd like to discuss that further. It seems that everyone in this thread including the OP already sees the difference.



No. There's more to it than that, this could be what everyone is talking about and everyone is seeing, but people are too busy arguing over the temporary and minute differences. While in fact they are both describing the same exact outcome.

Which they are, am I not wrong? The universe simply naturally healing or causing something to complete a process.

I mean.

Would it be unnatural and alien-originating, if it happened through the extreme of the other "religious" view, of some entity causing the healing to occur?

Wouldn't it just be a manipulation of something that was already there, and already possible.

The way I see it is that it's possible, and it's happened, it's just the way that it happens that people argue about.

I don't care to argue about that, because if it's on a single single side, then more than likely it's incorrect altogether on it's own (oxymoron?), yet when you put both views together, they begin to make sense.

Something not extremely religious or unexplained like an entity directly causing a healing of a person through a random even (or planned depending on how you see it), and not as casual as a random occurrence simply happening and coincidentally working out absolutely perfectly for the consciousness that is currently experiencing life through that body. IE:, the dude that was watching t.v., saw a relative opportunity in connection with his pain, a sort of channel that only exists of the mind, because on the pure objective and physical level, obviously you guys tell us they're just random events without meaning, and then watches that opportunity fulfill itself and turns into an amazing coincidence of random events.

Now the extreme of the subjective mental view, is that the connection is all that exists, that he saw something in that guy on t.v. and that guy somehow (telepathically?) saw something in him, and so a void was filled and an opportunity branched.

Now, the other side says that nothing happened but that which would've happened whether the t.v. was there, whether the guy was sleeping in his bed at the time, or whether he was taking a shit reading playboy (excuse).

So...I say that it's neither of these extreme views, both in a constant act of negating something else, some experience that a person has had subjectively, and the experience that you guys are having objectively, IE:, you haven't seen no jesus, where the hell is god now?

So basically I think it's much tamer than some invisible guy in the sky, but much more meaningful than just a random coincidence.

Very scientific, very medical and biologically based, not impossible, and perfectly reasonable, given the crazy qualities of our current planetary experience...and all that, that is about...

But anyway, I feel with proper 'nursing' and proper 'nudging' this idea could be built up, and then reduce again to the pure truth, and then continued in a process in order to finally come to a perfect balance of what is actually happening inbetween truths .

Basically, behind the scenes, the little sliver of reality that we touch, but always lose balance throw to one side of the extreme or another, all the while the real truth remaining perfectly in the middle being missed by everyone, because they're busy focusing on negating something else, instead of negating their own view, and reducing that, until they're left with the truth.

So that's what I guess that's also about, negating yourself, pushing your own view into reduction, so that you don't get on a bullshit train and end up acting like everyone else, either extremely religious, or extremely non-religious which in my mind is just as bad .

Because if you think about it, there are people of both kinds, so there should likely be an equal understanding of both, not just imbalance.

So that's what I want to try and do, if you understand than respond accordingly, if not then please, ask, respond accordingly.



quote:Originally posted by Q777:

Please elaborate.



I see only two people talking about things like a big invisible guy in the sky, the religionists, and that guy. *points to Q777*

Just makes the connection, I do.

quote:Originally posted by ate:

The way I see it is that it's possible, and it's happened, it's just the way that it happens that people argue about.

That's right, ate, the way it happened is exactly what this thread is about. But as usual, you want to veer the topic onto something else that you'd rather discuss and claim it's the same thing.

No actually I think you're missing the fact that I'm saying that it is the same thing.

Sorry, if you don't accept what I'm saying, then just say you don't accept my views, nothing more is needed unless you want to discuss them!

If you do, then please, get to the discussing of the views...on topic as suggested otherwise you're taking this thread off topic which isn't kind to others!

And by the way, read the post. Then reply to it. If you can. If not you can't. It will be apparent.

[This message has been edited by ate (edited 10-30-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by ate:

If you do, then please, get to the discussing of the views...on topic as suggested otherwise you're taking this thread off topic which isn't kind to others!

No, ate, we were discussing the OP's declaration that he knows Jesus healed his pain. Getting in to metaphysical bullshit that Jesus healing at an exact time being the same as placebo effect, etc. is just that, metaphysical bullshit. If you want to try to convince us that it's the same thing, take it somewhere else. I'm pretty sure no matter how long of a post you make here, you won't convince anyone that it's all the same.

I was obsessed with Benny Hinn Ministries when I was a kid and I would watch it everyday. I was born with a condition that gives me chronic ulcers (though it's gotten a lot better as I've gotten older) and it was really painfull when I was a kid. I remember sitting up by the screen and putting my hands on the screen when Benny Hinn said to and after that I didn't get ulcers for years.

Power of the mind? Doesn't matter to me, as long as it works.

Cheers,

Lost

quote:Originally posted by Martini:

Originally posted by ate:

If you do, then please, get to the discussing of the views...on topic as suggested otherwise you're taking this thread off topic which isn't kind to others!

No, ate, we were discussing the OP's declaration that he knows Jesus healed his pain. Getting in to metaphysical bullshit that Jesus healing at an exact time being the same as placebo effect, etc. is just that, metaphysical bullshit. If you want to try to convince us that it's the same thing, take it somewhere else. I'm pretty sure no matter how long of a post you make here, you won't convince anyone that it's all the same.



1) You haven't read my post, you are the equivilant of a 12 year old talking about high school physics, so either read it and respond or continue off topic.

2) You don't understand something and it's caused a bias for you. Metaphysics obviously is beyond your comprehension so the only words you know equals; "metaphysical bullshit".

So either read my post, then reply to it, or you have shown a most obscene expample of prejudice against beliefs and ideas (which are just that, ideas) and ignorance against the truth (because you choose to reply to something without reading it, and then talk about something, without understanding or knowing a thing about it (metaphysics, if you knew more than how the word was spelled the only words coming from you would've been much more than "metaphysical bullshit", you obviously can't understand it. Why?

My guess is that you, like in this case, simply don't read what you talk about and bullshit your way through things, faking an intellectual attitude, to feel better.

So if you're done carressing your ego, please, either respond like you can, or if you can't, it will show, and it really really has.

By the way, I like the touch with the words you used, it's almost as if you really don't know what else to say, like there are no other thoughts going on in that head of yours...no viable response, no conscious thoughts...I mean, surely if you could respond like a person who could understand it...you could, and you wouldn't go, "No, I don't want to." Just like a little kid caught in a lie.

quote:Originally posted by ate:

Would coincidence really make a different?

I mean it's like.

"Your pain went away for no special reason. It just happened by coincidence."

Or.

"Your pain went away for a reason, it happened because someone wanted it to happen."

Actually, it's much more likely that his body healed gradually over the several months after the injury occurred. One tends to get used to pain over extended periods.

I can speak from experience when it comes to back pain. Back pains due to strains or pinched nerves can come and go in a very short time frame.

quote:Isn't a coincidence pretty much the same thing as a universal force creating the event to happen?

No. A coincidence is mere happenstance. A universal force creating the event requires intervention.

quote:I mean...you don't really think things just happen out of thin air do you? Of course there is something within this universe that is actually controlling things, as we sit here like puppets bounded by these simple laws and guiding our lives only partially as something else basically creates everything.

Please provide evidence to support these claims. Conjecture is not evidence.

quote:You really think there's nothing above this level of ignorance about all things? That it's just unknown?

No evidence points to anything metaphysical existing.

quote:In a creation? In a standing presentation of matter and energy? Just a random play?

What is the point of that?

That's just it. There is no point to it. There is no reason to believe that life as we know it is any more than a lucky series of events. There is no ultimate purpose.



[This message has been edited by truckfixr (edited 10-31-2006).]

So what are we looking at here?

- The condition may have gone into temporary remission and you find out one day while trying to lift a box that you spoke too soon.

- Condition self-remedied over the course of time and confirmation bias ties it to the televangelist/supernatural and rules out the natural healing process which is infinitely more likely.

- You were actually miraculously healed while some multimillionaire televangelist was on the air by some intangible force that can't get it's priorities straight and hundreds of innocint young children dying of structural malnutrition in that same instance were completely overlooked.

quote:Originally posted by Martini:

You're sure that it wasn't a coincidence or a placebo effect and you're also sure it was the power of Jesus. Care to explain one by one how you came to those certainties?

Jojoman?

quote:Originally posted by truckfixr:

Actually, it's much more likely that his body healed gradually over the several months after the injury occurred. One tends to get used to pain over extended periods.

I can speak from experience when it comes to back pain. Back pains due to strains or pinched nerves can come and go in a very short time frame.

We'll be sure when the sun explodes. =)

quote:

No. A coincidence is mere happenstance. A universal force creating the event requires intervention.



Absolutely not, that would require a universal force which works within the presence of time...but I'm saying what if this whole thing was planned before "time" began...as in...no one coincidences..it was meant to happen, and meant to teach us a lesson..

Although...not a lesson like "do what I say, or you're going to hell, but something like...ask for something good and you'll get it every time...because life is in your mind".

Hehehe, rhymes...



Now.



Ok.



You have a pattern of events.

The view of a coincidence....it's how different from the view of an external causation?



Wouldn't something outside the universe or as the universe, literally be so interwoven and so perfectly seamlessly intertwined with the processes of these events and their natural patterns that if it WERE to do something specific, IE: that coincidental event, that THAT event would be exactly like all other events, even those events which we don't see as coincidences?

So basically I'm saying...that whatever being this universal being is...which would make sense as being the actual universe itself....is literally creating this signs, on a level which co-exists with all other things...in other words it doesn't barge right in and make magic happen, it's simply built into the system, constantly and all over the place...it's just the things which we see stick out, based on our own perception of what's possible and what's not, basically our own imaginative belief, that we are have the ability to learn from, and become aware of.



And those things are the sort of 'opening' if you will into learning more about the universe, and about your very reality...about you...the self...and the other self.

Now, I want to get this coincidence caused event thing down. I have to make sure, it's what everything about this is based on.

Basically all possibilities of this present situation, of this universal situation have all already been played out, all have already happened.

The only way to find change, is to create more possibilities, like little wormholes into a new level of existence of reality, and then moving right into them, opening even more possibilities so on and so forth.

Now, other people are still active...so they may create possibilities for you, I don't think you can just sit down these days, and expect to be undisturbed, people are everywhere, and they are constantly affecting one another's realities on some level.

Now. The universe in whole. The only difference in the universe and events and space and times and situations and things...is our own perception. It's the only thing that is actually different, everything else is just a million trillion billion LOLzillion shades of dots from white to grey to black condensed and condensed and condensed until entire realities are created at the end view, which is our view, the external view of reality.

And so now..in the view of coincidence and intervention...there is neither...there's just a continuation of events and possibilities....there is no being that would intervene, if it is, it's just you controlling reality from the source of it (your perception, your mind, yes this is a partially literal meaning) and opening up new possibilities.

Now.

The only thing I will have to get you to decide to accept.

Is whether your mind.

Or your body truly decides reality, and possibilities, and where you go in life.

Now.

Would it be possible that the very act of him listening to the t.v. at that moment, was a subconscious preparation...done before life was even experienced on the eternal level of linear time (all time must still exist no? I mean...does it get erased? Does is stick to a giant chalkboard in space...and then fade to black again after we all stop living???, or does it all constantly exist...and it's this view of it that fades...?), so before we view that view...of temporary time....illusory time...where it seems to be built of a large amount of still frames which slap together quickly to create the illusion of motion..., and so what if...the physical experience of this event is what changes possibilities and reality...from the source of reality...by changing one's perception...and thus changing the lower form of reality...later reality as you would like to call it the illusory one that exists after the real one decides to drop down into fake time, or animal life...after it first created it of course ( http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif))...the lower form of reality being physicality...the body...space and time as we know it in the suburbs or the city or or wherever....a GUI version of a presently...coded and fully written script waiting only to be moved through, through experience...with only the ability to experience new things through the ability of the mind to change the experience, through utilization of the mind and it's imagination.

Ok this is so far off topic I don't know what to say. So I'll stop. Although I doubt the OP's story.

quote:

Please provide evidence to support these claims. Conjecture is not evidence



Hehehe, you really think that? It's ok...I don't want to you change your beliefs if you think that...I couldn't imagine doing that to you...ok? I'd rather see you change them yourself.

quote:

No evidence points to anything metaphysical existing.





Mmmmmh, what metaphysicality?

Oh..well..I have one...

How do you know you are reading this right now?

No.

How do you know YOU are reading this. Not your body.

quote:[b]

That's just it. There is no point to it. There is no reason to believe that life as we know it is any more than a lucky series of events. There is no ultimate purpose.

[b]

That's never "just it", there's always more, don't you pay attention to the stars and vastness of space? Or the microword if you'd like, the ocean and our cells or our brains.

You have a reason to believe that there is no point? I don't. But that's fine if you do. Have as much fun as possible with your ideas.

Or wait...is that negating the universe...as there are no ideas meant to be had?



No reason to believe life is any more than a series of lucky events?

You realize...that's like saying a big old guy came down from the sky, and said, I gave you my only son, and you put him on the cross..and then you wake up and your in a burning pit of fire, and the thought comes across your head and goes "what if the Christians were right, and then you quickly go "no no, they were just 'lucky'".

I mean...if that doesn't sound odd to you..then. Sure. That's good.

But if that does...then I'd say you have a very funny viewpoint...although sadly it will be carried out after that point that you leave this view of reality....you know what that is right?

quote:Originally posted by ate:

Absolutely not, that would require a universal force which works within the presence of time...but I'm saying what if this whole thing was planned before "time" began...as in...no one coincidences..it was meant to happen,

Maybe you're not understanding what is meant by "coincidence". If I have a feeling that the phone is going to ring right now and it does, I may believe that I willed someone to call me (non-coincidence). I may also come to the conclusion that I have that feeling quite often and that I'm wrong quite often and that I hold no responsibility for the phone ringing (coincidence).

The situation with the OP is a similar scenario. Either a television evangelist was the direct cause for his pain to disappear (non-coincidence) or he wasn't (coincidence). Both is not an option.

quote:Originally posted by ate:

and meant to teach us a lesson.. You have shown zero evidence that any force means to teach us a lesson.



quote:Originally posted by ate:

The view of a coincidence....it's how different from the view of an external causation?

I hope I explained that well enough for you above.

If you're going to respond to this, please do it point by point and don't ramble on in your usual fashion.

Does God reward people for watchin TV now? He must really want attention or something.

quote:Originally posted by xray:

Originally posted by ate:

Absolutely not, that would require a universal force which works within the presence of time...but I'm saying what if this whole thing was planned before "time" began...as in...no one coincidences..it was meant to happen,

Maybe you're not understanding what is meant by "coincidence". If I have a feeling that the phone is going to ring right now and it does, I may believe that I willed someone to call me (non-coincidence). I may also come to the conclusion that I have that feeling quite often and that I'm wrong quite often and that I hold no responsibility for the phone ringing (coincidence).



LOL!

Find out what a human can't do and can!

LOL!

It's a big pile of what if's to you, we're not super men! We have limits in this state.

quote:

The situation with the OP is a similar scenario. Either a television evangelist was the direct cause for his pain to disappear (non-coincidence) or he wasn't (coincidence). Both is not an option.



Ahhh! Why not? Show me a way it can, and a way it can't, and then anyone would see, until then, we can't really be sure...I mean..there are no rules as to what "might" and "might not" happen? So explain it through, not just, "coincidences don't happen", or "coincidences do happen" or "it must be one or that other".

quote:

You have shown zero evidence that any force means to teach us a lesson.



LOL! Ok, life's not here to teach us a lesson, it's just here for fun, for experience!

BUT I'm SAYING WE CAN LEARN FROM SOMETHING WE Don'T UNDERSTAND EVERYTHING ABOUT ALREADY.

Makes sense no?

The situation with the OP is a similar scenario. Either a television evangelist was the direct cause for his pain to disappear (non-coincidence) or he wasn't (coincidence). Both is not an option.

quote:Originally posted by ate:

and meant to teach us a lesson.. You have shown zero evidence that any force means to teach us a lesson.



quote:Originally posted by ate:

The view of a coincidence....it's how different from the view of an external causation?



I hope I explained that well enough for you above.

[/quote][/b]

You have try to convince you be take your beliefs without reason, without logic, and without explanation! You have rambled! This all false, because you're just telling me your point of view, without giving any other reason as to how the universe comes together like this!

Put it together! Does it all make sense! NO! There is still about ten thousand things that go unexplained and are just "Told" to me, because "that's the way things are".

Reasonable? No!

quote:

If you're going to respond to this, please do it point by point and don't ramble on in your usual fashion.

I'm so won't tolerate your religion!

I won't believe blindly!

And I most definitely, won't listen to a thing you do, if you don't even understand what I'm telling you! It's like you're a bum who hasn't seen the rest of my speech, walking through the crowd telling me to go home because you're trying ot take a nap on the sidewalk over there.

Go back to your sidewalk, I'll continue talking thanks! You just continue doing what you were doing, randomly deciding who does what for your own reasonings, and what they belief, and that they will believe that for no logical purpose!

LOL!

That may work for you, but not me!

Will someone please nuke this guy's account? I have respectfully used logical steps to debate, and he tells me to go back to the sidewalk because I'm like a bum and thread-jacks every thread he chimes in on and changes the topic and blabs on and on about nothing.

This is certainly inappropriate behavior for this forum. Please respond if I'm wrong, mods.

Ate, I find it quite humorous that you accuse others of lack of logical reasoning, when nothing you have posted has been based on sound reasoning. The only thing you have provided has been unsupportable assertion. based on your own opinions. Not on testable evidence.

I honestly believe that you do not even realize that you are a troll in this forum.

quote:Originally posted by xray:

Will someone please nuke this guy's account? I have respectfully used logical steps to debate, and he tells me to go back to the sidewalk because I'm like a bum and thread-jacks every thread he chimes in on and changes the topic and blabs on and on about nothing.

This is certainly inappropriate behavior for this forum. Please respond if I'm wrong, mods.

Just replying to what you've given me.

quote:Originally posted by truckfixr:

Ate, I find it quite humorous that you accuse others of lack of logical reasoning, when nothing you have posted has been based on sound reasoning.



Hahahha! I find it quite humourous that you believe yourself.

Prove it, my friend! No, don't cite sources simply say what you mean, and provide simple reasoning for it.

quote:

The only thing you have provided has been unsupportable assertion. based on your own opinions. Not on testable evidence.



I've given a bit more than that, but not much more!

But you expected me to continue!?

I haven't even had a response from you yet, how could we possibly continue if we're not on the same page.

Ahh! Now I see how things work for you.

I'm not sure that's the best way to do things.

quote:

I honestly believe that you do not even realize that you are a troll in this forum.

Ya, same to you pal. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Nah, you're not a troll, you're just very biased, but then again, so am I in believing that!

So it would only be safe to say that what you say as opinion, simply doesn't have a place in this! Now, get to explaining why your think what you do, or useless, baseless, biased opinions is all they remain.

Yet, if you hand me your logic, and your point of view, no certifications, and no citations would be require, why, those things aren't knowledge! What they represent is, if you go to constantly needing those, then you simply have representations and "signs" of knowledge, but nothing that's truly teaching anyone anything.

Hahaha, knowledge doesn't come from there, it is present when one person communicates a view across to another person, all those papers and cites, they all back theory and speculation!

Hahaha!

What are those good for if they're only meant to materialistically reinforce speculation?

What if you could do that right here and now, with your own mind and your own experience.

Sure! You won't get much from a University, but ....I'm sure you won't mind in the long run... : )

Ate, what the fuck?

What is your point really?

Meh, just replying to them as they come.

If one person could go the distance, then you'd see my point.

It's about something beyond the surface level, it's not something you're going to read once without subscribing to and completely be done with. Others can read, but one person must go through this process, so that I can explain it.



In other words, it's a very personal experience that usually must be done in person to take other factors into consideration, like an IQ test.

While doing it online is possible, it would take a...while. And a lot of cooperation from both sides. As long as we're here, I'll try it, no one's going to lose unless they don't have the patience of a human being.

[This message has been edited by ate (edited 11-01-2006).]

Ok, ate.I'm game. I'll give you a chance to prove that there is more to the universe than what we can percieve through physical means.

Start another thread for the sole purpose of proving your assertions. This one has been hijacked long enough.

To prove your position, you'll need to choose the point you wish to promote, and defend it in a concise manner. Rambling on the way you do about irrelevent nonsense is a waste of my time and effort.

Ok, well

1) Tutor me on how to not ramble, because from my view I'm simply stating my points.

2) What would you like the thread to be about?

3) There is no end to this, a "chance" does not mean it begins and ends when you say it does.

It means we must come to an agreement, we must come to the same page, I assume we start by finding an agreement with the basics, a fundamental view of reality, and the universe.

Which one will this be?

Lastly.

This view is the Equivalent of the Einsteins equation for everything.

The only thing is, once we speak it, it's going to stop being the real deal.

Yet if we can use symbols, through words and representations maybe I can use something limited, to describe something unlimited, I can use something general and completely common like language, to describe something completely personal and intimate.

This is near impossible, unless a magical force is present on both sides, this is the will to find this, without it, it WILL. NOT. BE. FOUND.

IE: THIS WON'T WORK UNLESS THAT IS UNDERSTOOD.

Now, this is about the subconscious.

Very simply, you and I both have this idea in the back of our heads, I have connected with this in my own way.

You can connect to it in your own way, and you will, in time.

If I am to cause you to connect to it, you will have do it in your own way.

Get it?

It must be perfect cooperation and "same page" understandings if we are going to know where each other is, and then relay information relative to this position, otherwise we're just shooting in the dark.

Does that make sense.

Put it like this. It's an experience or an event, yet we've both forgotten it yet only we experienced it the way we di, let's say I remembered it (don't go on an ego trip now), now how could I get you to remember an experience that only you know about?

I'm going to have to portray my experience, my understanding of this, in the most generalized sense, until I can understand exactly where you're coming from.



[This message has been edited by ate (edited 11-01-2006).]

quote:1) Tutor me on how to not ramble, because from my view I'm simply stating my points.

It appears to me that you do not sit down and think about what you're writing and how to put it down in a consistent, readable manner before writing your posts. It's almost as if you're writing in a stream-of-conscious manner, with no thought for structures such as paragraphs whatsoever.

What I recommend you do is think of the key argument of your post, how you came to this conclusion, and what you have to back it up, and then think of how to write it in a consistent, readable, grammatically-correct format, and then do so.

Oh, and lay off the cough syrup.

quote:Originally posted by ate:

Ok, well

1) Tutor me on how to not ramble, because from my view I'm simply stating my points.

Just state your point in a coherent manner. Keep to the point. Don't go off on a tangent untill your point is made.

quote:2) What would you like the thread to be about?

It matters little to me. It's your's to choose.

quote:3) There is no end to this, a "chance" does not mean it begins and ends when you say it does.

No. A *chance* means just what it implies. You are being given the opportunity you requested. If you fail to support your assertions I won't waste a long period of my life listening to you.

I'll let you know up front that I hold a much more sceptical view of the world than you. I do not and will not accept conjecture as fact.

quote:It means we must come to an agreement, we must come to the same page, I assume we start by finding an agreement with the basics, a fundamental view of reality, and the universe.

Ok. Lets find out how much we differ on our views of reality.

I believe that reality is as you see it. It is what you can experience through your five physical senses. I see nothing mystical in the creation (I use the term "creation" very loosely here)of the universe or anything within it. Humans are animals, and as all other animals are electro-chemical machines. The only powers we have to affect our surroundings are through physical means.

Your turn.

quote:Which one will this be?

Lastly.

This view is the Equivalent of the Einsteins equation for everything.

The only thing is, once we speak it, it's going to stop being the real deal.

Yet if we can use symbols, through words and representations maybe I can use something limited, to describe something unlimited, I can use something general and completely common like language, to describe something completely personal and intimate.

Obviously you will have to use the written word to convey your message. Telepathy is not an option here.

quote:This is near impossible, unless a magical force is present on both sides, this is the will to find this, without it, it WILL. NOT. BE. FOUND.

IE: THIS WON'T WORK UNLESS THAT IS UNDERSTOOD.

Well then, I suppose you will have to start right here. Before we proceed any farther you're going to have to demonstrate that a magical force can actually exist. I'll leave it up to you to design some sort of test that we can perform. I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. But as previously stated, I'm a sceptic. The results of whatever test you concoct must be conclusive.

Until this point is cleared up I don't see much sense in answering the remainder of this post.

quote:Now, this is about the subconscious.

Very simply, you and I both have this idea in the back of our heads, I have connected with this in my own way.

You can connect to it in your own way, and you will, in time.

If I am to cause you to connect to it, you will have do it in your own way.

Get it?

It must be perfect cooperation and "same page" understandings if we are going to know where each other is, and then relay information relative to this position, otherwise we're just shooting in the dark.

Does that make sense.

Put it like this. It's an experience or an event, yet we've both forgotten it yet only we experienced it the way we di, let's say I remembered it (don't go on an ego trip now), now how could I get you to remember an experience that only you know about?

I'm going to have to portray my experience, my understanding of this, in the most generalized sense, until I can understand exactly where you're coming from.

quote:Originally posted by truckfixr:

Just state your point in a coherent manner. Keep to the point. Don't go off on a tangent untill your point is made.

This will be somewhat repetitive as the points are very simple and straight foward.

Explaining is necessary so you don't take it as something it's not.

quote:

I'll let you know up front that I hold a much more sceptical view of the world than you. I do not and will not accept conjecture as fact.



I think you have it reversed.

quote:

It is what you can experience through your five physical senses.



What about your other sense?

quote:

I see nothing mystical in the creation (I use the term "creation" very loosely here)of the universe or anything within it.



What was before or after it? How many others were there? And how many times has our particular body, world, reality, and universe been "Created"?

quote:

[quote][b]

Humans are animals, and as all other animals are electro-chemical machines. The only powers we have to affect our surroundings are through physical means.



But we are self-aware, meaning we have another way to affect our surroundings...we can plan...we can imagine...and subconsciously...these will build up to imprints and impositions on the world, and we will unknowing create what we experience, the type of world we live.

You've seen the difference.

Being neutral and unconscious.

Now being conscious and negative.

What would the world be like if we became conscious, and positive...much different right?

quote:

Obviously you will have to use the written word to convey your message. Telepathy is not an option here.

We are communicating through telepathy right now.

When I say something.

And you think of an image in your head.

If I am at an absolute perfect understanding of human language, your perception, and how they relate, then I can make you imagine, or think of the exact thing that I want you to. Through these words.

These words can make the mind connect, there for there is something extra there, whatever you want to call this mental connection...don't believe in the sci-fi view of telepathy, the truth is these things are very mundane..not in the fact that they happen all the time, but the fact that we don't know what they are.

We have false views of these things, the higher senses, or realities. What you know about them is not true.

Not even I have it all.

But for instance.

You think telepathy is direct contact from one mind to another.

You think it's like reading a book?

Sometimes it's like painting a picture, and words can do this, and your mind would be the canvas, if I am an expert painter, I will be able to send the most detailed image possible, as if it were done by a supercomputer or something of the sort.

Do you consider that telepathy, no right?

Well, that's what would happen wouldn't it?

If we had the proper understanding of the utilities of our mind.

quote:

Until this point is cleared up I don't see much sense in answering the remainder of this post.

Ok.

Stop wanting to talk to me.

If this post begins to fail at this point on. You will see the effects of your mind on this whole situation.

Very very simple no?

Let's take it to the macrolevel of society creating the world situation, and that is where you'll begin to doubt me...although do you doubt that you decide whether this continues or not? Based on your willingness to continue?

Is this your body influencing reality?

I mean..sure you're typing...but what's controlling that? The thoughts? What's controlling those? Something, or maybe someone is, and that's what's affecting reality...and from that last point behind the thoughts it seems as if it's non-physical in nature, no?

Where do your thoughts come from? Not the objective views, but the subjective views? Where are they experienced?

quote:Originally posted by ate:

What about your other sense?

As of yet I've seen no evidence to support the existance of a 6th sense.



quote:What was before or after it? How many others were there? And how many times has our particular body, world, reality, and universe been "Created"?

I have no clue as to what existed before this universe came to be, and quite frankly neither do you. There is no way to determine whether or not the universe has/will collapse after it's expansion ceases. Even if it were to cycle through big bang/big crunch cycles, each created universe would be different.It would not be like rewinding a film and replaying it again and again.

quote:But we are self-aware, meaning we have another way to affect our surroundings...we can plan...we can imagine...and subconsciously...these will build up to imprints and impositions on the world, and we will unknowing create what we experience, the type of world we live.

You've seen the difference.

Being neutral and unconscious.

Now being conscious and negative.

What would the world be like if we became conscious, and positive...much different right?

Yes, we have the ability to plan, to reason. Yes, we have an effect on our surroundings. I tend to believe that it is more of a conscious effort to create change than subconscious.

On a subconscious level,all life has an effect on it's surroundings. An organism cannot exist and function without having at least a minimal effect on it's environment.



quote:We are communicating through telepathy right now.

When I say something.

And you think of an image in your head.

If I am at an absolute perfect understanding of human language, your perception, and how they relate, then I can make you imagine, or think of the exact thing that I want you to. Through these words.

These words can make the mind connect, there for there is something extra there, whatever you want to call this mental connection...don't believe in the sci-fi view of telepathy, the truth is these things are very mundane..not in the fact that they happen all the time, but the fact that we don't know what they are.

We have false views of these things, the higher senses, or realities. What you know about them is not true.

Not even I have it all.

But for instance.

You think telepathy is direct contact from one mind to another.

You think it's like reading a book?

Sometimes it's like painting a picture, and words can do this, and your mind would be the canvas, if I am an expert painter, I will be able to send the most detailed image possible, as if it were done by a supercomputer or something of the sort.

Do you consider that telepathy, no right?

Well, that's what would happen wouldn't it?

If we had the proper understanding of the utilities of our mind.

No , we are communicating through the written word, over a vast network of electronic circuits. This is not telepathy any more than having a spoken conversation person to person in the same room would be.

quote:Ok.

Stop wanting to talk to me.

If this post begins to fail at this point on. You will see the effects of your mind on this whole situation.

Very very simple no?

Let's take it to the macrolevel of society creating the world situation, and that is where you'll begin to doubt me...although do you doubt that you decide whether this continues or not? Based on your willingness to continue?

For the record, I don't want to talk to you.You stated that your point would be made if someone would be willing to go the distance. Later you stated that a magical connection must exist. I have no doubt that I decide whether or not to continue with this discussion. As of yet, you have failed to address my initial request. If you wish for this conversation to continue, address the issue.

Just in case you missed my request I asked that you devise a conclusive test to show that a magical connection can exist.

Unless you can do so , I see no reason to continue this discussion.



[This message has been edited by truckfixr (edited 11-01-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by truckfixr:

As of yet I've seen no evidence to support the existence of a 6th sense.

My friend, I'm talking about the experience of your life right here right now, examining, and if you haven't noticed it before, then for you, discovering a sixth sense. (as you put it)

quote:

I have no clue as to what existed before this universe came to be, and quite frankly neither do you.



What? What do you base this off of? What's your reasoning?

quote:

There is no way to determine whether or not the universe has/will collapse after it's expansion ceases.



Why?

What's wrong with the universe? It's sound mysterious and mystical in this view....a bit too much. Like there's so many things left in the dark...is this the way things are supposed to end up? Or is it because we are choosing to see things our own way?

quote:

Even if it were to cycle through big bang/big crunch cycles, each created universe would be different.It would not be like rewinding a film and replaying it again and again.



Exactly! Yet they'd all be in the same "space", no?

quote:

Yes, we have the ability to plan, to reason. Yes, we have an effect on our surroundings. I tend to believe that it is more of a conscious effort to create change than subconscious.



Do you control we're you'll be 10 years from now? Or do you control the immediate present?

quote:

On a subconscious level,all life has an effect on it's surroundings. An organism cannot exist and function without having at least a minimal effect on it's environment.



Yep. This is the simple truth, nothing spectacular, no evidence required see? You just think, and bam, it's so blatantly obvious that you can't NOT see it..

This is what I want to do with those "unknowns" you have up there, about the universe...

quote:[b]

No , we are communicating through the written word, over a vast network of electronic circuits. This is not telepathy any more than having a spoken conversation person to person in the same room would be.

This is the same as a spoken conversation, albeit there is much less factor and personality involved.

Although...you don't think connecting a mind to a mind is telepathy?

Put it this way.

If you could properly receive one message from me.

If this message was complex enough it could explain to you what, if there was one, the next message I would send would be, I would be thinking the same thing, as long as we were both focused, we could sort of work through this message, into the next one and so on and so forth, without ever making contact except after the initial moment.

That is what I'm talking about, and it happens, only usually people you might call yourself, a normal bodied and normal minded person would have to become so intimately close with someone else's personality, you'd have to become such a pure channel for message, thought, and emotion, that the only person this would happen with would likely be your wife, or someone who'm you might call your soul mate.

But that is without our interaction, with that 'magical' will, we can make it happen in any situation. Although, like I said, if you're not willing...then it won't.



quote:[b]

For the record, I don't want to talk to you.





And don't you think there's been a lack of "taking off" with this discussion, because of this very fact? I mean it's moving quite slowly, and ...wouldn't you say that might be a reason for it? If there's not a good flow of communication could the words "I don't want to talk to you", have something to do with that?

quote:

You stated that your point would be made if someone would be willing to go the distance.



You have failed before we began!, refer to your last quote, but do you want to continue?

quote:

Later you stated that a magical connection must exist.



You don't want it to happen...OMG THIS IS MAGICAL! It's not happening!

Everybody in the world turns positive...there is no more "badness" no more evil, no more lack of energy.

You start thinking positively, and we would have gone somewhere by now, but it seems we are back where started.

So, would you like to begin? Or no?

quote:

As of yet, you have failed to address my initial request. If you wish for this conversation to continue address the issue.



Which one is that?

Note: This is the second attempt I've made to simply become closer to you, in order to better understand you.

It's literally like you wish to put this puzzle together, and create his painting of bridging our perceptions together so that understanding is made, blindfolded AND on the other side of the planet with as much distance between us as possible.

I'm telling, we first need to communicate.

You may call this communicate.

But you could also call the current relationship between the entire world, a relationship, is it doing what a relationship is supposed to do? No, of course not, because of the attitude (conscious creation? 6 th sense?)

This view is literally KILLING US.



Ok, micro-scale that.



Your attitude to not talk, is literally destroying any possibility that we could have to learn and communicate properly with each other...like a flow of communication should result in.

C'mon now...I couldn't have put it any plainer than that, you are asking for this, and both I, and the reality you are in is responding to your exactly requests. Ask for something different and you'll get it.

What do you have to lose for finally breaking and asking completely for what we could ask for? For the perfect communication, where you're not holding back, and allowing total, ideal relationship (remember, this is just a micro-version of the situation the entire planet is in).

So this magic, it's either will to co-exist, or whatever you want to call it.

Hint: Love is what many people may call it.

Although in the west, love has turned into exactly what it is not, it has gone from turning your perceptions into the perceptions of a larger being, and putting your own desires aside, and saying "ok, i don't want to talk to you, but for the sake of the information that both our subconsciouses may hold, let's make a connection and express this information, i'll look into your mind and you look into mind and we'll both put our cards on the table", into something much more physical...and desire based.

So maybe you don't want to use that word? Whatever word you're using, it should describe the absolute best situation possible.

In this case.

Communication.

Are we creating the best situation possible?

And if not...is the best and in this case, the required, possibility of total communication of ideas going to occur?

Not without your willingness........now that's the simple version. You don't want it to happen it won't, shall we begin?



No?



Yes?

quote:

Just in case you missed my request I asked that you devise a conclusive test to show that a magical connection can exist.



I believe you're attached to this word in some way. Let's throw the word magical out, I believe it's over exciting your imagine. The magical connection is the fact that if we both try to accept what can possibly happen, in the best situation we can imagine here, then the chances for it happening go up exponentially.

But maybe you're seriously looking for a magician here...think quantum observation...the fact of thoughts affecting reality...think towards the highest possibility, and it may come to manifest from a quantum level of unmanifested potential.

Anything can happen, and this non-physical thing is the decider of it, IE: your attitude, your mindset, your perception, YOUR WILL.

The magic is that if we both align our wills, and bridge our perceptions we can both allow ourselves to see/explain something that we couldn't before, all because you literally created the possibility of it.

I'm telling you, it's a very emotional thing, we are connected to this reality through these emotions at some level, and if you're not balancing them correctly, and negativity is seeping out, it will be like trying sail across the ocean in a bottomless ship, if you make it out of the harbor alone, it will be a miracle http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif).

Where are we? In the harbor, we haven't even left shore yet...so...as I've asked...can we begin? We are still waiting..well..I'm waiting...I'm telling you this bottom ship, this communication is not build to hold these ideas afloat, and you want to go sailing across the ocean.

Please...that was the first premise, let's get the fundamentals out of the way, and then work from there, we're not going to make if we leave this standpoint, in the position we are in now.

So something needs to change.

Can you guess what it is? C'mon, it's simple, it's very, very, psychologically infantile in nature...we haven't even gotten to the teens of this understanding yet. This is the beginning, it will decide the potential for the rest of the show, you're now deciding this, because I'm pushing forward, and you're going the other direction.

Decide now if you want to continue, but changes will have to be made if we wish to get anywhere..you see?



This is the experience I'm talking about, defining your reality, working with it, and becoming aware of utilizations of the mind and the consciousness which affect space and time, in a non-local way, just by thinking just by perspective and outlook, there's a modification on some quantum or base level.

This experience isn't meant to be read, but it can be, if it's done very carefully, and very slowly, and it's definitely not meant to be absorbed from some article, or citation...maybe a book or two...but not just a single statement expansion...



quote:

Unless you can do so , I see no reason to continue this discussion.





Self fufilled prophecy my friend, see something more, and if you don't get it, then I was literally wrong!

And this is your chance to prove that it doesn't exist, and there is no quantum connection of mind/consciousness to physical reality!

But also realize, that you can't fake the change I'm asking you to make, in your own outlook on this situation, because it is based on your inner thoughts...reflect on what you want out of this, and if you are willing to experience self-willed change of self, in order to experience change of reality. On an external, physical, and very down to earth level.

Edit: But it starts within! There's no skipping over the process of the self creating reality, you can't change the reality you experience OUT HERE, without first changing what's in there.

You don't like this? You should, it fixes a great problems people have in life, for one, communication problems of all kinds.

[This message has been edited by ate (edited 11-01-2006).]

I think you misunderstood my statement that I did not want to talk to you. It was meant to be taken as indifference. Not that I had an aversion to having this conversation.

It's late and I have to get up early to go to work.

If you wish to attempt some sort of test as you described it will have to be tomorrow evening.

It's whenever, but I believe it started a while ago and it's waiting for your interaction.

Otherwise it's just sitting..unaffected, with no perceivable results.

C'mon change your attitude, and let's what happens...that's what this is about by the way, if you didn't read that...I explained what the test would be.

I've reread your posts and find only a vague reference to anything which could be a test. Before this began, I asked for you to be concise, and to not ramble on.



Before we can continue, you will need to provide a more precise outline of parameters of this test and how it must be performed. Don't be vague and don't ramble.

Attitude is based on what has been learned in one's life. I've had a lot of years to form my attitude. If you expect my attitude to change, you must also cooperate.

not banging on your beliefs or anything, but everytime someone tell me of a psychic-healer, a fortune-teller, or a prediction genius or whatever, I'm always thinking why they have to hawk their wares on television or got to hang around on a street corner earning a couple of bucks everyday and live in a modest place when they can just about get anything they want using a fraction of their abilities.

Its like what will you do if you have psychic powers one day? I bet you can give me a dozen answers before you say "I hang around in a dingy place with dodgy smoke and candles around me giving people a glimpse of their future or helping them in their lives for 20 bucks."

[This message has been edited by deadbeat (edited 11-01-2006).]

^ Yes, but would a non-physical ability like psychic ability, be so simple as flexing your bicep and simply throwing a ball really far?

Or something as simple as that.



quote:Originally posted by truckfixr:

I've reread your posts and find only a vague reference to anything which could be a test. Before this began, I asked for you to be concise, and to not ramble on.



Show me what's vague and I'll show you how it's concise...

Either you really do not understand what I am referring to or you have no intention of attempting to improve your posting style.

As I stated at the beginning, I have no intentions of wasting my time and effort.

This conversation, as far as I am concerned, is finished.

Then you're giving up because you don't want to understand something that's concise to me, yet vague to you. While you'd have to get this concise information from me, seeing as only I have it (in this particular case), yet when I complete the equation and say "ok, what do you want to know", you go:

Literally now...

"No, it doesn't work that way, we're through."

So....you asked for something, (very vaguely, might I add), I ask you to precisely state what you want, and you reject.

You know, this is just like the kid that wants attention from his mom, he's puts up a big fight because he wants a juice box, and then finally his mom goes and gets the juice box to give it to him, but the second he sees her going to give it to him, he screams about how he doesn't want it anymore and that it's her fault.

This is what you're doing, if that's how you want to leave this conversation...well...I can't stop you, but hopefully something inside YOU, would..much hope towards that...

Wow, the flames from the first few posts almost set my hat on fire.

Okay, maybe it was a coincidence.

Maybe the TV guy WAS a bona fide psychic healer.

Maybe there was a Midwayer in the area who decided to have some fun.

Point is, you're better now.

My advice would be to stop thinking about why it happened, accept it as a blessing, and thank God.

quote:Originally posted by ArmsMerchant:

Wow, the flames from the first few posts almost set my hat on fire.

Okay, maybe it was a coincidence.

Maybe the TV guy WAS a bona fide psychic healer.

Maybe there was a Midwayer in the area who decided to have some fun.

Point is, you're better now.

My advice would be to stop thinking about why it happened, accept it as a blessing, and thank God.

Exactly what I did. I just saw people posting all of these logical explanations why there can be no god, why there has to be a god, and somewhere in between, not to mention the totally bizzare ones. I am just sharing my personal experience with all of you.