I remember reading (in Scientific American) a while back that there may actually be a gene that gives us the need for a God, and/or religion.

And I think it is absolutely necessary. In the early days of humanity, it was what brought people together, controlled large groups of people, and motivated them to work towards common goals.

Without the concept of afterlife, people have a lot less/nothing to live for. Religion made the world what it is today.

(holy shit, my roommate just walked by me, the dude smells like shit.)

No, mutual help and longetivity of life was what held people together and gave them a reason to work together.

quote:Originally posted by Merlinman2005:

No, mutual help and longetivity of life was what held people together and gave them a reason to work together.



I guess, but I wouldn't be so quick to toss this away, I mean, it was front page on Scientific American.

opiate of the masses among other things.

quote:Originally posted by AstronomyDomine:

Originally posted by Merlinman2005:

No, mutual help and longetivity of life was what held people together and gave them a reason to work together.



I guess, but I wouldn't be so quick to toss this away, I mean, it was front page on Scientific American.



I've heard the phrase "the God gene" before, but can't recall if it was in S A. Can you find a link or some other real proof of this?

And I was only tossing the notion that a belief in God is what held us together, nothing else, btw.

http://www.geocities.com/milkmandan2003/TalibanOnline1.html

We are biologically predisposed to rape, that doesnt mean its right or good. I disagree that people are disposed to believe in god, what people are disposed to is to believe what the predominant beliefs in the culture are. This explains why other countries have a high percentages of atheists.

Lastly, not having an afterlife gives MORE meaning to this life. It's the only life we have, thus it is the most important.

No, memes and religious genes don't exist.

If anything, they are a misunderstanding of something greater.

But it's not "numerical" anyway, people are shaped and moulded into their beliefs, and they in turn shape and mould.

And maybe what the world needs isn't what we call religion, with its dogma, and fixed, ideas, but something "based" upon the very feeling behind religion, that sense of love, and working together i guess.

And religion is not from the "early days" of humanity as such, it arose when we were fulfilled, and became complacent, and we sought something more than survival.

Or maybe not...maybe it's tapping into something, not something we "need" as such, but something that will help.

Religion was founded as a means to explain the mysteries of the universe at a time when we had no idea *how* to do that, and probably as a way to control people. There is no "love" behind that.

quote:Without the concept of afterlife, people have a lot less/nothing to live for.

Why would the lack of an afterlife to look forward to give you less of a reason to live? I feel that if this life is the only one you've got, make the best of it...it has the opposite effect. Plus, if all you want is an eternal afterlife, that seems to devalue this life.

Your life is what you make of it, and only you can give it meaning and only you can decide whether or not it is worth living.

[This message has been edited by Peanutbutter Soup (edited 10-30-2006).]

without belief in an afterlife, humanity would be no where, well all just be scrambling to live our lives to the fullest. Because religion taught us the values of helping others, humans could create tools to help each other.

Religion didn't "teach us the values of helping others" you idiot. Helping others is an extention of the will to survive; it's easier to carry on and reproduce safely with others than completely alone.

quote:Originally posted by Mantikore:

without belief in an afterlife, humanity would be no where, well all just be scrambling to live our lives to the fullest. Because religion taught us the values of helping others, humans could create tools to help each other.



Many people, particularly non-believers, feel they get the best out of life by helping others. Many atheists help others out of genuine kindness and a desire to better their community/humanity, not out of hope that their actions will result in eternal reward. Also, altruism (if you can call it that, since regardless of how "selfless" an act is, it ultimately results in, if indirect, payoff) isn't a human-only characteristic; it's found in different areas of nature.

the cynical side of me says that God is just a mean to control the masses in the past.

the more optimistic side of me says that God is a mean for everyone to at least feel there's hope for me, and a way to explain what happen when they die.

If I were to buy that whole "religion brought people together, controlled large groups of people, and motivated them to work towards common goals" bullshit (which I don't) that would still only be an argument for why it was needed in the past. We've obviously evolved past the need for "religion" and to perpetuate that line of thinking is currently an affront to scientific progress.

Well, do you celebrate Christmas, Guy Fawkes Day, and a load of other religious festivals? Or Thanksgiving for the matter?

Its also the same thing as why Hindus don't eat beef, Muslims don't eat pork. Frankly, does eating an animal in your life affect your chances of getting into heaven, assuming that Heaven exists and you fulfilled all existing criteria except this. Its ridiculous to think that a kebab can land you in eternal damnation. Its beyond a petty and vengeful god, its just plain silly. Its just that in the past, there's a NEED for people to stay off those animals. For instance, because killing them might mean an end to agriculture and then slow starvation. Or an epidemic outbreak. The leaders couldn't just say NO, BECAUSE I SAID SO, could they? So they just make things up as they go along and say OH, I WOULDN'T DO THAT IF I WERE YOU. GOD WOULDN'T LIKE THAT, NOT 1 BIT.

Its the same thing. Its tradition, although the original meaning is lost and people now don't really practise it for the same reason as in the past. Its fun and all that, although the day after the holidays often isn't that fun with the nasty hangovers...



[This message has been edited by deadbeat (edited 11-01-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

If I were to buy that whole "religion brought people together, controlled large groups of people, and motivated them to work towards common goals" bullshit (which I don't) that would still only be an argument for why it was needed in the past. We've obviously evolved past the need for "religion" and to perpetuate that line of thinking is currently an affront to scientific progress.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

If I were to buy that whole "religion brought people together, controlled large groups of people, and motivated them to work towards common goals" bullshit (which I don't)

It's not bullshit, the fact that religion controlled/controls people is fact. Look at some of these basic examples:

9/11 - Religion caused them to work towards a common goal (killing us)

Egyptians - Religion organized their people and built the pyramids.

Divine Right - people accept their ruler to be chosen by God.

Caste System - Some people accept their lives to be worth shit because of their religion.



Now saying religion doesn't control people is incorrect. And I do agree with you in the sense that we've outgrown our need for religion in present times, but it was certainly necessary throughout history.

quote:Originally posted by AstronomyDomine:

It's not bullshit, the fact that religion controlled/controls people is fact. Look at some of these basic examples:

9/11 - Religion caused them to work towards a common goal (killing us)



Thats true.

quote:Originally posted by AstronomyDomine:

Egyptians - Religion organized their people and built the pyramids.



That was actually slave labor not religion.

quote:Originally posted by AstronomyDomine:

Divine Right - people accept their ruler to be chosen by God.

Caste System - Some people accept their lives to be worth shit because of their religion.



Now saying religion doesn't control people is incorrect. And I do agree with you in the sense that we've outgrown our need for religion in present times, but it was certainly necessary throughout history.

I agree in recent times religion is closer to a tool of war than a tool of peace.

I actually read something on this topic, heres some of it:

quote:I would maintain that a healthy (i.e. substantial) amount of denial is therefore genetically heritable, that it allows us to blithely go on (despite reading Beckett) and to ignore the basic sadness and desperation of life. We can live in an illusion — in fact we are genetically predisposed to do so. These illusions can be small — I am just as good at catching game as Bob, my rival, for example — or they can be very large — that death is not the end and that I will be rewarded for my faith and Bob, the apostate, will rot in Hell.

Either way, they allow me to go on, to persevere in the face of unlikely odds or limited chance of success. We have evolved to be less rational that one might think, and to be slightly more delusional and even stupid.

Sometimes denial = Survival.

Of course denial is a very sharp two edged sword.

Thanks, good post.

There is way too much religion in the world now; not enough spirituality.

This is not mere semantic hair-splitting.

Religion divides, and says one group is better than another.

Spirituality unites, and says we are All One, and that no one is better than anyone else.

quote:Originally posted by AstronomyDomine:

It's not bullshit, the fact that religion controlled/controls people is fact.

I didn't call the fact that religion can be used to control people bullshit, I called the idea that religion was necessary for humanity, bullshit. Two very different things. Read my post again.

To prove the necessity of religion, you're going to need more than a few cases were it has been applied as a control method. A possible benefit of religious thought does not equal necessity. That's what I am pointing out, besides the fact that you claimed that "the world needs religion" when in it does not and it seems you now admit as much.

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

[B]If I were to buy that whole "religion brought people together, controlled large groups of people, and motivated them to work towards common goals" bullshit (which I don't)

Not to be an asshole, but you weren't clear at all on this. You listed 4 items in a list, and then called that list bullshit.

I don't have time for the rest of this post right now, I'll edit later.

I didn't list any items on a list...

It seems you're confused. Take your time and follow what I said and what I was replying to, closely.

I would like to add it isn't a need for religion so much as a need for denial and distraction. It was found to be a genetic predisposition though. Thats why certain people fool themselves to the degree that they do.

religion is the cause of most of the wars that have happend on this planet, and the idea that some super-power bareing being will distroy the world, makes planning for any sustainable future impossible, because all of the god nuts will keep trying to make the "prophacy" that a bunch of ignorant supsestitions primatives wrote down thousands of years ago.

at least the UFO nuts have pictures

People who can't spell should not call other people "ignorant."

quote:Originally posted by Merlinman2005:

No, mutual help and longetivity of life was what held people together and gave them a reason to work together.



FUCK religion.

God gives people a reason to live.. Many people feel that if they have no reason to live given to them, then they have no reason at all.

It's just insecurity IMHO.

The book Islam and Terrorism by Mark Gabriel:

http://tinyurl.com/fbtv7



Some pages from Mark Gabriel's book (need Adobe Acrobat Reader):

http://home.ripway.com/2005-6/328030/Mark%20Gabriel/Chapter4.pdf 206KB

http://home.ripway.com/2005-6/328030/Mark%20Gabriel/Chapter5.pdf 124KB

http://home.ripway.com/2005-6/328030/Mark%20Gabriel/DeceitChapter6.pdf 101KB

http://home.ripway.com/2005-6/328030/Mark%20Gabriel/MuslimPastorCh7.pdf 100MB

http://home.ripway.com/2005-6/328030/Mark%20Gabriel/3StagesJihadCh11.pdf 88MB

(free ripway accounts allow a maximum of 10MB transfer per day. If links don't work, try back later)

quote:Originally posted by AstronomyDomine:



Without the concept of afterlife, people have a lot less/nothing to live for.

I lol'd