If the universe is infinite, then that means the supernatural exists, because infinity doesnt exist according to athiest. If it stops somewhere, whats at the end? And what's beyond that, nothing? What is nothing? That doesnt exist to athiest either. And if it does, why? You've never seen nothing, just like you've never seen god, so why would you believe nothing existed? I hate to break it to you, but there is no brick wall at the end of the universe. No matter how you look at it, there is something supernatural going on.

And not only that, what about what created the universe? What some gases combined, and created everything, ok, what was here before that? Was space just empty, with no stars or planets? Ok, what created space, or existance for that matter? something always had to be here for any of those theories to come out right, ie infinity.

As for me, i know there is something beyond this life, and i believe there is a ruler over everything. Who or what it is, and where i go after this life, i dont know.

But the point im trying to make, is athiesm is stupid, because you have to have faith to believe it. And thats the reason you bash religion, is because their beliefs are based on faith. I dont believe any particular religion, but i know something is beyond this.

(do any people of PD disagree? and the mods can move this to the religion forum if you want).

1. If the universe were infinite, that in no way would mean the supernatural exists.

2. Atheists can believe in infinity.

3. Atheists don't have to explain what made the Big Bang possible or anything else. They can merely say that they do not know, and that would be a much more intellectually honest answer than the god-of-gaps theist use (and you are using) to explain the unknown.

4. Nothing you said showed how atheists supposedly need faith.

5. I'm sending this to "My God Can Beat the Shit Out of Your God".

quote:Originally posted by Rust:

1. If the universe were infinite, that in no way would mean the supernatural exists.

2. Atheists can believe in infinity.

3. Atheists don't have to explain what made the Big Bang possible or anything else. They can merely say that they do not know, and that would be a much more intellectually honest answer than the god-of-gaps theist use (and you are using) to explain the unknown.

4. Nothing you said showed how atheists supposedly need faith.

5. I'm sending this to "My God Can Beat the Shit Out of Your God".

Damn, beat me to it and put it more concisely too.

uuh yes i did. they need faith to believe in something that they havnt seen 'nothing'.

and how the hell can an athiest admit that something can actually be infinite, not just in theory?

quote:Originally posted by Mister-Sawed-Off:

uuh yes i did. they need faith to believe in something that they havnt seen 'nothing'.

It doesn't take faith to not believe something, it takes faith to believe in something with no evidence at all.

I'm guessing that you don't believe that flying unicorns exist, correct? Does it take faith for you to not have that belief?

quote:Originally posted by Mister-Sawed-Off:

and how the hell can an athiest admit that something can actually be infinite, not just in theory?

First you'll have to explain the problem with atheists believing that infinity exists.

What do you mean by "not in theory"?

It seems that you've come to the illogical conclusion that if there are things you can't understand about the universe, such as "what is nothing", that lack of understanding means "there must be a God".

quote:Originally posted by Mister-Sawed-Off:

I hate to break it to you, but there is no brick wall at the end of the universe. No matter how you look at it, there is something supernatural going on.

Thanks for letting us all know that there is no brick wall at the end of the universe. Now I'll share something with you:

Lack of a brick wall does not prove the existence of something supernatural, however, the existence of a brick wall might.

quote:Originally posted by Mister-Sawed-Off:

And thats the reason you bash religion, is because their beliefs are based on faith.

That's right, belief based on faith is infinitely ignorant.

quote:Originally posted by Mister-Sawed-Off:

uuh yes i did. they need faith to believe in something that they havnt seen 'nothing'.

1. You're assuming that the atheist believes in "nothing" as part of the universe. That's not something for you to say.

2. I believe that you are a human being typing in a computer. Does that mean I have faith because I'm not sure you're an alien? Well, you could say so since I'm assuming this without any evidence, however, not only do atheists don't care about all faith - they care about the presence or lack of faith in a god - but I would have a logical expectation about you being a human being typing this with a computer, based on other evidence I do have.

There's a humongous difference between the faith in believing that there is "nothing" somewhere, and believing in a god.

One can be described in materialistic terms, with Scientific knowledge (hell, states nearing this materialistic description of "nothing " can be achieved (e.g. the vacuum)) and the other is an unscientific, and unsubstantiated belief. The two are not comparable in the least.



quote:

and how the hell can an athiest admit that something can actually be infinite, not just in theory?

How couldn't he do so? You're the one who made the claim that he could not possibly believe in something infinite existing, it's up to you to first show how he couldn't.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 11-03-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Mister-Sawed-Off:

If the universe is infinite, then that means the supernatural exists, because infinity doesnt exist according to athiest. If it stops somewhere, whats at the end? And what's beyond that, nothing? What is nothing? That doesnt exist to athiest either. And if it does, why? You've never seen nothing, just like you've never seen god, so why would you believe nothing existed? I hate to break it to you, but there is no brick wall at the end of the universe. No matter how you look at it, there is something supernatural going on.

And not only that, what about what created the universe? What some gases combined, and created everything, ok, what was here before that? Was space just empty, with no stars or planets? Ok, what created space, or existance for that matter? something always had to be here for any of those theories to come out right, ie infinity.

As for me, i know there is something beyond this life, and i believe there is a ruler over everything. Who or what it is, and where i go after this life, i dont know.

But the point im trying to make, is athiesm is stupid, because you have to have faith to believe it. And thats the reason you bash religion, is because their beliefs are based on faith. I dont believe any particular religion, but i know something is beyond this.

(do any people of PD disagree? and the mods can move this to the religion forum if you want).

quote:Originally posted by Mister-Sawed-Off:

If the universe is infinite, then that means the supernatural exists, because infinity doesnt exist according to athiest. If it stops somewhere, whats at the end? And what's beyond that, nothing? What is nothing? That doesnt exist to athiest either. And if it does, why? You've never seen nothing, just like you've never seen god, so why would you believe nothing existed? I hate to break it to you, but there is no brick wall at the end of the universe. No matter how you look at it, there is something supernatural going on.

And not only that, what about what created the universe? What some gases combined, and created everything, ok, what was here before that? Was space just empty, with no stars or planets? Ok, what created space, or existance for that matter? something always had to be here for any of those theories to come out right, ie infinity.

As for me, i know there is something beyond this life, and i believe there is a ruler over everything. Who or what it is, and where i go after this life, i dont know.

But the point im trying to make, is athiesm is stupid, because you have to have faith to believe it. And thats the reason you bash religion, is because their beliefs are based on faith. I dont believe any particular religion, but i know something is beyond this.

(do any people of PD disagree? and the mods can move this to the religion forum if you want).

Are you some sort of dumbass?? Its A-T-H-E-I-S-M, if your going to criticize atheists be sure you at least spell the name right. First off an atheist can believe in infinity. and whats so hard about believing the universe is infinite (was not created) if you believe that god was never created? i really dont understand your logic. Please explain.

what evidence do you have that 'nothing' exists? that means no space, no anything. so yes, your basing your belief on faith, just as much as somebody who believes any other religion.

my logic? is i truly dont blindly believe in anything. i know that something had to always be here, whatever that may be, and i know that that something governs existance.

so your saying you believe space was always here?

and yes, im a dumbass because i didnt spell a word right. sorry, i dropped out. but since you spell perfectly, that means you know everything. fag.

quote:Originally posted by Mister-Sawed-Off:

what evidence do you have that 'nothing' exists? that means no space, no anything. so yes, your basing your belief on faith, just as much as somebody who believes any other religion.

We're not saying 'nothing' exists, we're saying that 'God' doesn't exist. There are atheists, myself included, who believe the universe has always been here.

What is "infinite?"

It is attempting to label and quantify the cosmos with a hierarchal pattern of human thought.

Do you really think that our terms matter outside of our own consciousness?

Saying that the universe is "infinite" is extremely shaky at best. Deriving an argument (which you have to stretch a bit to get to) from this extremely shaky assumption=an "infinite" loop of....retardedness.

quote:Originally posted by Mister-Sawed-Off:

what evidence do you have that 'nothing' exists? that means no space, no anything. so yes, your basing your belief on faith, just as much as somebody who believes any other religion.

No, not just as much. As it has already been explained to you, an atheist doesn't have to believe that "nothing exists" (that is a ridiculous thing to say to begin with), and if it does, it can certainly be because of a scientific principle or theory, which means it is substantiated to a reasonable degree.

To compare belief that there can be an absence of physical particles to a belief in a god is idiotic to say the least. Not only are the two not comparable, but the atheist complains only about belief in a god, not necessarily about every form of faith.

quote:Originally posted by Mister-Sawed-Off:

what evidence do you have that 'nothing' exists? that means no space, no anything. so yes, your basing your belief on faith, just as much as somebody who believes any other religion.

my logic? is i truly dont blindly believe in anything. i know that something had to always be here, whatever that may be, and i know that that something governs existance.

so your saying you believe space was always here?

quote:Originally posted by Mister-Sawed-Off:

and yes, im a dumbass because i didnt spell a word right. sorry, i dropped out. but since you spell perfectly, that means you know everything. fag.

Well when I called you a dumbass I didnt say it because you spelled the main word of your entire post wrong but because of all your moronic claims. And I dont see anywhere in my reply that even says "nothing does not exist". What i said was god does not exist. I believe he was an invention of human mind. So when i claim he isnt there i say that the never was there so there is no absence therefore there is no "nothing" left (basically what twitch said).

Sawed, do you know exactly how gravity works? Probably not.

But do you believe Apollo pulls the sun around the earth in his chariot? No.

Because even you have enough technical understanding to realize that is a myth from a primitive society.

I think that is a pretty good analogy.

Um... dude?

An athiest can believe that his invisable pink elephant buddy, who was fathered by a mouse and an aluring small asteroid.... is currently helping to correct his spelling.

So long as he doesnt believe there is/was or will be a god, he is still an athiest.

Is the universe infinite? Is time infinite?

What is god, and why doesn't it exist?

What is faith?

What is belief without faith?

What is a combination of both?

OK DIP SHIT, I'M AN ATHEIST AND HERE IT IS. HOMO-ERECTIS'S BRAINS ARE NOT EVOLVED ENOUGH TO COMPREHEND SUBJECT MATTER LIKE THAT AND ANY ATTEMPT TO COME TO ANY SUBSTANCALE THEROM ABOUT ANYTHING BUT THE SIMPLEST OF SUBJECT MATTER IS LIKE TRYING TO GET A MONKEY TO DO ALGEBRA( OR A STONED ASSHOLE TO SPELL RIGHT!) IT JUST AINT GOING TO HAPPEN, SO LET ME HELP YOU COME TO A SIGNIFFICANT CONCLUSION. " YOU ARE THE SAME DECAYING ORGANIC MATTER AS EVERYTHING ELES ON THIS PLANET." YOU WILL DIE VERY SOON AND EVERYTHING YOU'VE EVER DONE WONT MEAN SHIT SO INSTEAD OF ASKING YOURSELF SUPER COMPLEX AND HIGHLY DOGMATIC QUESTIONS I SUGGJEST THAT YOU FOCUS ON GETTING HIGH, GETTING LAID AND GETTINGB THE MOST PLEASURE YOUR FEBILE MONKEY BRAIN CAN GET OUT OF THIS WORLD BEFORE YOUR PATHETIC LITTLE "LIFE" COMES TO AN END.

quote:Originally posted by ate:

Is the universe infinite? Is time infinite?

What is god, and why doesn't it exist?

What is faith?

What is belief without faith?

What is a combination of both?

I think the universe folds in on itself, like if you go one direction long enough that you will make it back to where you started.

and time will last as long as the universe does.

"god" would be any supernatural consciousness that created every thing. and it doesnt exist becasue there is no need for it too, not to mention if god does exist then the only thing that could have created it would be another more powerfull god, and so on and so on. so haveing one explains nothing.

Faith is belief with out proof. you have faith that some one will make it through a surgery ok no matter what the doctors say, you ahve faith that elvis is still alive, and as a child you had faith that santa was real

Now you can believe some thing with out faith, I believe that the sky is blue, only because I have seen it. I belive that gravity pulls matter together according to the laws of physics because I can test it.

quote:Originally posted by gomp:

I think the universe folds in on itself, like if you go one direction long enough that you will make it back to where you started.

and time will last as long as the universe does.

Ok, so what is the universe and what is time, and what are their relations?

I should've asked that first.

quote:

"god" would be any supernatural consciousness that created every thing.



Why must it be supernatural? And define supernatural.

quote:

and it doesnt exist becasue there is no need for it too



After defining the above, define why there is no need, what a need is.

quote:

not to mention if god does exist then the only thing that could have created it would be another more powerful god.



Wouldn't god be the creator?

There is only one.

quote:

Faith is belief with out proof.



So what is it when you have faith that you will be able to jump across a creek?

quote:

Now you can believe some thing with out faith, I believe that the sky is blue, only because I have seen it.



You mean if you have faith in something after you've seen it then it's considered a founded believe and ok.

And if you have faith in something before you've seen it then it's considered unfounded and ignorant?

quote:Originally posted by THE ONLY SANE MAN:

OK DIP SHIT, I'M AN ATHEIST AND HERE IT IS. HOMO-ERECTIS'S BRAINS ARE NOT EVOLVED ENOUGH TO COMPREHEND SUBJECT MATTER LIKE THAT AND ANY ATTEMPT TO COME TO ANY SUBSTANCALE THEROM ABOUT ANYTHING BUT THE SIMPLEST OF SUBJECT MATTER IS LIKE TRYING TO GET A MONKEY TO DO ALGEBRA( OR A STONED ASSHOLE TO SPELL RIGHT!) IT JUST AINT GOING TO HAPPEN, SO LET ME HELP YOU COME TO A SIGNIFFICANT CONCLUSION. " YOU ARE THE SAME DECAYING ORGANIC MATTER AS EVERYTHING ELES ON THIS PLANET." YOU WILL DIE VERY SOON AND EVERYTHING YOU'VE EVER DONE WONT MEAN SHIT SO INSTEAD OF ASKING YOURSELF SUPER COMPLEX AND HIGHLY DOGMATIC QUESTIONS I SUGGJEST THAT YOU FOCUS ON GETTING HIGH, GETTING LAID AND GETTINGB THE MOST PLEASURE YOUR FEBILE MONKEY BRAIN CAN GET OUT OF THIS WORLD BEFORE YOUR PATHETIC LITTLE "LIFE" COMES TO AN END.



You would have to ask yourself how life came to this planet to be sure of any of that.

ate, although you're being more concise than usual, jumping into a thread and asking a series of questions and then playing devil's advocate with the answers you get, does nothing to add to the integrity of the thread, and once again, makes it all about "ate".

Why ask if the universe is infinite or finite, when I'm pretty sure you know that scientists are still trying to come to a definite conclusion on this? If you're just interested in others opinions, go take a poll!

Asking why "God" must be supernatural again just seems like you want to argue. Most would define a being that can do "anything" as supernatural because doing anything goes beyond the natural.

I without a doubt believe that your 'jumping over a creek' question is just to keep you entertained by sucking gomp into answering more and more questions that will arise after you get an answer, so you can get off on this some how.

If you have never used your legs before and believe that you can jump over a creek, then believing that you can may take faith.

If you have used your legs and have performed similar tasks, then believing that you can jump over a creek would come from prior knowledge of your own abilities, and takes no faith.

I have a strong feeling that you know everything I said above, but get a kick out of getting others to answer your questions, which you can then pick apart and ask more questions until you frustrate the hell out of all of those involved.

If you insist on doing this, at least do so in threads that you start. Time after time when you have pulled this crap before, the focus comes off of the OP and the topic, and goes straight to "ate", which often results in the OP not even participating anymore.

gomp, my advice to you is to not get sucked in to ate's everlasting question and answer game. It just feeds into him and gives him ammo to continue his threadjacking ways.

You're jumping to conclusions.



Guess what?

You've already decided for me, who I am, what I represent, what I think, and what my intentions are.

The only thing I can say to you is:

Please, stop lying about me.

quote:Originally posted by ate:

Please, stop lying about me.

He's not lying about you. He's drawing conclusions from what he's seen of you, and I must say that it's hard not to agree after witnessing your threadjacking first hand.

In this thread, you ask six questions in a row and then ask more questions about the answers that you get from gomp. Have a little respect for the OP and those who invested time in participating. If someone's opinion of you is that this makes you a threadjacker, that does not make him a liar.

You ask Martini to stop lying about you, but the way you treated me in the "Healing" thread was okay? I responded to your post in a very respectful manner, and you went on to call me a bum and go back to the sidewalk to take a nap. A bit hypocritical of you maybe?

Mister-Sawed-Off,

Nothing=Vacuum, Scientists have known this for a while. Why can't Atheists believe in Infinty? I know alot of Atheist Mathematicians who do.

Are you saying God was always here? What was before god? How did he get here?

Saying god was always here is just like saying the universe always was.

quote:Originally posted by ate:

Please, stop lying about me.

You do have a tendency to jack threads, by bombarding them with questions.

quote:Originally posted by xray:

Originally posted by ate:

Please, stop lying about me.

He's not lying about you. He's drawing conclusions from what he's seen of you, and I must say that it's hard not to agree after witnessing your threadjacking first hand.

In this thread, you ask six questions in a row and then ask more questions about the answers that you get from gomp. Have a little respect for the OP and those who invested time in participating. If someone's opinion of you is that this makes you a threadjacker, that does not make him a liar.



You're forgetting that he would actually have to be telling the truth about me for him to be right, which he isn't, which I am sure of.

quote:

You ask Martini to stop lying about you, but the way you treated me in the "Healing" thread was okay? I responded to your post in a very respectful manner, and you went on to call me a bum and go back to the sidewalk to take a nap. A bit hypocritical of you maybe?

Hey, if it's about that then, I apologize. But for that.

quote:Originally posted by THE ONLY SANE MAN:

OK DIP SHIT, I'M AN ATHEIST AND HERE IT IS. HOMO-ERECTIS'S BRAINS ARE NOT EVOLVED ENOUGH TO COMPREHEND SUBJECT MATTER LIKE THAT AND ANY ATTEMPT TO COME TO ANY SUBSTANCALE THEROM ABOUT ANYTHING BUT THE SIMPLEST OF SUBJECT MATTER IS LIKE TRYING TO GET A MONKEY TO DO ALGEBRA( OR A STONED ASSHOLE TO SPELL RIGHT!) IT JUST AINT GOING TO HAPPEN, SO LET ME HELP YOU COME TO A SIGNIFFICANT CONCLUSION. " YOU ARE THE SAME DECAYING ORGANIC MATTER AS EVERYTHING ELES ON THIS PLANET." YOU WILL DIE VERY SOON AND EVERYTHING YOU'VE EVER DONE WONT MEAN SHIT SO INSTEAD OF ASKING YOURSELF SUPER COMPLEX AND HIGHLY DOGMATIC QUESTIONS I SUGGJEST THAT YOU FOCUS ON GETTING HIGH, GETTING LAID AND GETTINGB THE MOST PLEASURE YOUR FEBILE MONKEY BRAIN CAN GET OUT OF THIS WORLD BEFORE YOUR PATHETIC LITTLE "LIFE" COMES TO AN END.

That made me laugh. Nice fight club quote though : "You are the same decaying organic matter as everything else."

quote:Originally posted by ate:



You would have to ask yourself how life came to this planet to be sure of any of that.

You know the truth on that matter about as much as anyone else does.

Well, what we know depends on our experiences and unless our experinces have all been the same, then many of us are at many widely different stages of understanding with the universe and our origins.

quote:Originally posted by ate:

Originally posted by gomp:

I think the universe folds in on itself, like if you go one direction long enough that you will make it back to where you started.

and time will last as long as the universe does.

Ok, so what is the universe and what is time, and what are their relations?

I should've asked that first.

quote:

"god" would be any supernatural consciousness that created every thing.



Why must it be supernatural? And define supernatural.

quote:

and it doesnt exist becasue there is no need for it too



After defining the above, define why there is no need, what a need is.

quote:

not to mention if god does exist then the only thing that could have created it would be another more powerful god.



Wouldn't god be the creator?

There is only one.

quote:

Faith is belief with out proof.



So what is it when you have faith that you will be able to jump across a creek?

quote:

Now you can believe some thing with out faith, I believe that the sky is blue, only because I have seen it.



You mean if you have faith in something after you've seen it then it's considered a founded believe and ok.

And if you have faith in something before you've seen it then it's considered unfounded and ignorant?



Ok the universe is every thing around you, check out the sky at night away from the city where you can see the stars, that is the part of the univers that is close enough to be seen by the naked eye

time, is a bit more complecated than that. but bassically time is the reason we see things as moving and changeing

supernatural (Latin:super- "exceeding"+nature) not existing in nature or subject to explanation according to natural laws; not physical or material

Needs refer to things that people "must" have. They are often contrasted with wants, which are more discretionary. anything that is necessary but lacking

I am pretty sure you aiming at putting "god" into any hole that has yet to be explained by science, but lack of a realistic explanation does not require a magical answer. haveing a god is not necessary, and there for not lacking



Would god be the creator? or more spacifically would the charature of god from the christian bible be the creator? there are alot of differant religions asumeing that these beings do exist then one of them must have made the others, and some thing must have made that one. and so on and so on

Now I dont know about you but I know what I am physically capable of, with relative accuracy. So if I think I can make a jump over a creek I probably can, and if I miss it then I miss gaged the distance.

here is what it comes down to, there is no proof that god exists. and there is no reason disprove some thing, when there are rational explanations that explain every thing that god was supost to.

Now if you lack the emotional maturity to handle day to day life with out proclaiming that some giant invisable being has a plan that your following. and you need a ultimate parental figure standing over you at all times to keep you from running around killing and rapeing people. then I am glad that you have been drawn in by religions bribe to live forever.

Mister: "But the point im trying to make, is athiesm is stupid,"



So eloquently spoken, how is anyone supposed to take you seriously like that?

Atheism indeed does take faith, but so does theism of course. It's just which pill do you want to take - everything was made from nothing or everything was created from something you can't possibly know exists. Agnosticism is simply the assertion that man does not know and the acceptance of human ignorance. Seems the most logical to me.

quote:Originally posted by KikoSanchez:

Atheism indeed does take faith, but so does theism of course. It's just which pill do you want to take - everything was made from nothing or everything was created from something you can't possibly know exists. Agnosticism is simply the assertion that man does not know and the acceptance of human ignorance. Seems the most logical to me.

No, it does not. I am tired of explaining this over and over again. It's been explained several times on this forum, and what most think agnosticism to be is in fact atheism.

I too am sick and tired of theists and other morons asserting that it takes "faith" to not believe in something for which there is no evidence of.

This is something I posted in another thread:

quote:"It's easy to just throw one's hands up in the air and say "God did it!" as an answer to one's problems. It's easy to say everything will be alright because your invisible buddy has your back. It's easy never to think about your perception of the world rationally, to instead look to a thousands-year old book for made up answers. You're nothing more than a cowardly tool.

It takes balls to think rationally."

Religious faith is for the weak-minded, and those who simply don't fucking know any better. I don't believe in any gods simply because there is no reason to.

quote:Originally posted by Raw_Power:

No, it does not. I am tired of explaining this over and over again. It's been explained several times on this forum, and what most think agnosticism to be is in fact atheism.

We really need a sticky system. Pseudo-intellectual idiots are waaay too fond of repeating that retarded myth.

I understand that atheism is the disbelief or unbelief of a god existing. Does it follow that atheism is the belief that god does not exist or am I making a logical fallacy in leaping from the disbelief to the belief? If so, and atheism is simply a disbelief then I guess I relinquish the point that atheism takes faith to some degree as well.

It just seems that if atheism IS a belief, then you must accept the physical/cosmic consequences that come along with it. It seems to come back to how the universe was created and since nobody knows and we all just 'believe' one thing or another, that we all have some degree of faith built in to that very fact. Of course if you say, I'm an atheist and accept my ignorance of how the universe was created and so forth, then I guess you get a free pass and don't have to accept how a godless universe would've come into existence.

It used to be god that made the sun rise every morning. It was gods or demons that made people sick. If you had mental problems, you were thought possessed by demons. When your wife couldn't get pregnant, it was god's fault.

As we have learned more about how these things work, we (most of us) quit using gods to explain them. It only follows from that, that maybe no god is needed to explain anything. And that we won't automatically put "god" in place of whatever we can't understand just yet.

wow, I read the entire thread, and all I can say is that Rust made mister sawed off look like a total jackass and an idiot. Good job Rust.

quote:Originally posted by gomp:

Ok the universe is every thing around you, check out the sky at night away from the city where you can see the stars, that is the part of the univers that is close enough to be seen by the naked eye

time, is a bit more complecated than that. but bassically time is the reason we see things as moving and changeing



quote:

supernatural (Latin:super- "exceeding"+nature) not existing in nature or subject to explanation according to natural laws; not physical or material

Needs refer to things that people "must" have. They are often contrasted with wants, which are more discretionary. anything that is necessary but lacking



As an experiencer of what people call supernatural things, I will say that the supernatural is perfectly within natural law, perfectly natural, and also physical or material..

quote:

I am pretty sure you aiming at putting "god" into any hole that has yet to be explained by science.



No.

quote:

But lack of a realistic explanation does not require a magical answer.



I never said it did. Although I don't know why you're thinking about magic.

quote:

Haveing a god is not necessary.



Why?

quote:

Would god be the creator?



In one aspect, God may be the one source which from all seperated and plentiful things come forth from at one point in "time".

quote:

Or more spacifically would the charature of god from the christian bible be the creator?



God's not in a book.

quote:

There are alot of differant religions asumeing that these beings do exist.



I don't believe religion has all the answers any more than I do believe science explains everything, and I don't understand what you mean by "these" beings.

quote:

Then one of them must have made the others, and some thing must have made that one. and so on and so on.



Yes, so obviously a non-being being created the first one, and so as none of the beings that that being created, created itself.

God is not a being as we know beings.

So....keep that in mind.

quote:

Now I dont know about you but I know what I am physically capable of, with relative accuracy. So if I think I can make a jump over a creek I probably can, and if I miss it then I miss gauged the distance.



Ok.

?

quote:

here is what it comes down to, there is no proof that god exists.



Why? Elaborate on this, please.



quote:

and there is no reason disprove some thing, when there are rational explanations that explain every thing that god was supost to.



Have you been confused about something lately, if so, ask me about it and I'm sure I'll be able to come up with an answer.

If you can tell me what was the cause of our universe, then I'll understand where you're coming from.

quote:

Now if you lack the emotional maturity to handle day to day life with out proclaiming that some giant invisable being has a plan that your following.



If you have this problem, I believe I can help you with it. If not, then please get back on topic with your next post.

Notice: We cannot detect many aspects of the universe using our bodies sensory organs.

quote:

and you need a ultimate parental figure standing over you at all times to keep you from running around killing and rapeing people.



You believe God is a limiter? A barrier that stops us from fulfilling our desires?

You must be believing in the religious examples of "god", you are mistaken as this is not what I am talking about.

quote:

then I am glad that you have been drawn in by religions bribe



I'm believe you have been drawn in more than I have.

quote:

to live forever.



Is this what you desire?

If you define life form you conclude such to be ecological and biological and therefor since God is neither, God does not exist.

That was easy"

quote:Originally posted by ate:



As an experience of what people call supernatural things, I will say that the supernatural is perfectly within natural law, perfectly natural, and also physical or material..



Care to elaborate?



quote:Originally posted by ate:



I never said it did. Although I don't know why you're thinking about magic.

I may be putting words into his mouth (sorry if I am) but I think by magic he means supernatural

quote:Originally posted by ate:



Why?

Would you like to explain how it is necessary?



quote:Originally posted by ate:



In one aspect, God may be the one source which from all seperated and plentiful things come forth from at one point in "time".

Are you suggesting that the big bang was this? You do realize if the big crunch theory is correct then the universe would be a never ending cycle of big bangs and big crunches over a drastically long period.

quote:Originally posted by ate:



God's not in a book.

You haven't read many books then. He is in that Bible thing people keep talking about. Don't believe me? Read it yourself.

quote:Originally posted by ate:



I don't believe religion has all the answers any more than I do believe science explains everything, and I don't understand what you mean by "these" beings.

Science doesn't explain everything, but that doesn't make it wrong, it is a work in progress to say the least. We as humans have made huge strides in science, but I don't think it will ever be possible to correctly explain everything, because as our circle of knowledge grows, the circumference of what we don't know grows as well.

quote:Originally posted by ate:



Yes, so obviously a non-being being created the first one, and so as none of the beings that that being created, created itself.

God is not a being as we know beings.

So....keep that in mind.

You know this from what, experience?

quote:Originally posted by ate:



Why? Elaborate on this, please.



If you disagree feel free to refute this with proof. He said there is no proof. If he is wrong, it should be easy to prove it.

The rest is more personally directed toward gomp so I'll let him answer.



quote:Originally posted by ate:

Well, what we know depends on our experiences and unless our experiences have all been the same, then many of us are at many widely different stages of understanding with the universe and our origins.

Unless your experiences include somehow observing the birth of our universe, your on the same stage as everyone else in the world.

Still I wonder, what personal experience are you referencing to come to the conclusions you are?

[This message has been edited by Aft3r ImaGe (edited 11-14-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Aft3r ImaGe:

Care to elaborate?

Give me an example of a "supernatural" occurance definitively relative to this thread.

IE: God is not a defined one; everyone's idea of God varies to the point of infinity.

quote:

Would you like to explain how it is necessary?



You'll have to re-phrase.

quote:

Are you suggesting that the big bang was this?



Could be.

quote:

You do realize if the big crunch theory is correct then the universe would be a never ending cycle of big bangs and big crunches over a drastically long period.



Might be fun? Don't know.

quote:

You haven't read many books then.



I have read books. You're being opinionated.



quote:

He is in that Bible thing people keep talking about.



If that's your view of God, then God is in the Bible.

If that's not my view of God, then God is not in the bible.

When I said "God is not in books", I meant it.

quote:

Don't believe me? Read it yourself.

[/b]

I have, my statement still stands, although you must respect it, and I will respect yours. If you are a religionist, that's fine by me.

quote:

Science doesn't explain everything, but that doesn't make it wrong, it is a work in progress to say the least.



It makes it incomplete.

quote:

We as humans have made huge strides in science, but I don't think it will ever be possible to correctly explain everything, because as our circle of knowledge grows, the circumference of what we don't know grows as well.



I agree.

quote:

You know this from what, experience?



I will know it from the experience of when I explain it to you if you ask me the question in another format. IE: By restating what I said, and indicating at what point the concept doesn't make sense.

In other words. You can either experience this in a full bodied understanding, looking in to the world, looking into reality and your perceptions.

Or you can simply think of the concepts and values at which this understanding is created of, and know that it would work.

Either way, you don't have all of the values, I would suggest you simply create your own, instead of trying to understand mine.

That doesn't mean don't continue to ask questions, it means that you have to come about it your own way based upon what I've said, always taking it another step further in your own experience, never leaving off at someone elses.

quote:

Unless your experiences include somehow observing the birth of our universe, you're on the same stage as everyone else in the world.



Most definitely, this is a common understanding/experience.

And I'm most certainly on the same stage as everyone else, we are all similar in this.

Although we are moving at different paces through this stage, we're all here.

quote:

Still I wonder, what personal experience are you referencing to come to the conclusions you are?



I expect to know all of your experiences, if you are to know mine.

[This message has been edited by ate (edited 11-14-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by ate:

Give me an example of a "supernatural" occurance definitively relative to this thread.

IE: God is not a defined one; everyone's idea of God varies to the point of infinity.





That didn't answer my question. To be more specific: What supernatural occurance is perfectly natural, and withen the laws of nature.

quote:Originally posted by ate:



You'll have to re-phrase.



How is god, (a god or many gods/supernatural beings) nessessary for our existence or the existence of the universe?

quote:Originally posted by ate:



Could be.



Ok, but is there any proof against it being a purely natural occurance?



quote:Originally posted by ate:



Might be fun? Don't know.



I'm just saying the big band might not have been the start of everything, but a part of a never ending process, after all the law of conservation of energy supports this. The only variable is the density of the universe.



quote:Originally posted by ate:



I have read books. You're being opinionated.



I appologize, but many books mention god, at least what many people see as god.

quote:Originally posted by ate:



If that's your view of God, then God is in the Bible.

If that's not my view of God, then God is not in the bible.

God is mentioned in the bible, wether or not you believe this is actually god or not, or if god exists at all, doesn't change the fact god is mentioned in the bible.

quote:Originally posted by ate:



When I said "God is not in books", I meant it.

You meant your definition of god.



quote:Originally posted by ate:



I have, my statement still stands, although you must respect it, and I will respect yours. If you are a religionist, that's fine by me.



Your definition of god is different then the bible, but that doesn't mean god, someones belief or representation of god, is not written about in the bible. That is what I meant.

quote:Originally posted by ate:



It makes it incomplete.



I know, thats what I said.

quote:Originally posted by ate:



I agree.





quote:Originally posted by ate:

I will know it from the experience of when I explain it to you if you ask me the question in another format. IE: By restating what I said, and indicating at what point the concept doesn't make sense.

In other words. You can either experience this in a full bodied understanding, looking in to the world, looking into reality and your perceptions.

Or you can simply think of the concepts and values at which this understanding is created of, and know that it would work.

Either way, you don't have all of the values, I would suggest you simply create your own, instead of trying to understand mine.

That doesn't mean don't continue to ask questions, it means that you have to come about it your own way based upon what I've said, always taking it another step further in your own experience, never leaving off at someone elses.

That in no way answered my question but ok.

quote:Originally posted by ate:



Most definitely, this is a common understand/experience.

Really? How and when did you experience this?

quote:Originally posted by ate:



I expect to know all of your experiences, if you are to know mine.

Why is that? I am simply asking how you came to the conclusions you did. That doesn't require any information from me.

quote:Originally posted by Aft3r ImaGe:

What supernatural occurance is perfectly natural, and withen the laws of nature.



Thank you for being more specific.

All supernatural occurances are all perfectly allowed, described and created by nature. All of them fall under possibilites created by the laws of matter or nature.

If they exist outside those laws, then they can't happen!

quote:

How is god, (a god or many gods/supernatural beings) nessessary for our existence or the existence of the universe?



Well...

God=A sum total.

That's all it is. Meaning.

When you talk about "It", you're talking about the universe itself as an entirety.

(In this case, and under my understanding of what we are speaking of.)

If that was not sufficient, then try again.

quote:

Ok, but is there any proof against it being a purely natural occurance?



Against what being a purely natural occurance?

Notice, if it happened, it's most likely natural, and occuring. See my above reply to see why I state this.

quote:I'm just saying the big bang might not have been the start of everything, but a part of a never ending process, after all the law of conservation of energy supports this. The only variable is the density of the universe.

Ok.

I don't believe there was a "start", to everything in existence. Maybe to our existence. But not to other existences going on as we hadn't existed..

quote:I appologize, but many books mention god, at least what many people see as god.

Yes, but God as a currently misunderstand, and very internal connection to the universe, is not currently present in any books.

quote:

God is mentioned in the bible, wether or not you believe this is actually god or not, or if god exists at all, doesn't change the fact god is mentioned in the bible.



It is a partial, and thus misrepresenation of the one true God. So it is not God.

Just someone's false idea of God.

Although God can be anything you like.

Yet.

Here's the catch. Never will God ever be confinable to a material possession.

quote:

You meant your definition of god.



No, because all our definitions are correct. They fit because we want them to.

I meant God is not in a book, simply because God would be the book, as well as the writer and the reader!

So, I meant it.

quote:

Your definition of god is different then the bible, but that doesn't mean god, someones belief or representation of god, is not written about in the bible. That is what I meant.



Yes I know, but I don't believe that is God. Nor do I believe my belief is God.

It is currently unknown, we must accept this, and begin our slow humble scale of a mountain called human experience. Then we can begin to know more.

quote:

That in no way answered my question but ok.



You're not familiar with my methods, you showed this here.

So in short, I'm no good at answering questions that haven't been asked yet, or asked yet properly.

If I can't correctly and fully perceive exactly how answering your question will help you understand what my message is, then I will not be able to answer it.

Although to provide an equilibrium I ask for one to ask again in a re-phrased manner.

quote:

Really? How and when did you experience this?



Do some internet searches. Dreams, lucidity, awakening, meditations, visions, etc etc etc.

Read the I-CHING.

Read the Tao.

The Baghavad Gita.

They all explain what the visions of the universe explain to you.

That is it, nothing spectacular, unless of course you've experienced it.

Note: Visions are when you sit down one day, and you think. Or maybe you're walking about.

Wherever it is, it's nothing spectacular, unless of course, once again, you've experienced it.

quote:

Why is that? I am simply asking how you came to the conclusions you did. That doesn't require any information from me.



Yes, but it's a difficult situation, becase if you have no experiences like this, then how will you make sense of mine?

I think you've now answered my questions but I have a fever right now and can't think. I am not in anyway a religionist by the way, I forgot to put that last time...

I will reply when I'm feeling better.

You have a fever?

Type now, it will add inspiration. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Feel better.

The universe is finite and unbounded, not infinite. There is a difference.

/thread

Well, the first one means that the universe has the potential to become infinite through an expansion within time, yet it can collapse if it doesn't gain enough momentum and ultimately become finite.

The second one means that the universe is as big as it's ever going to get, no matter what, which is currently beyond the scope of value, as it simply doesn't end, now or ever.

quote:Originally posted by NeoIceshroom:

The universe is finite and unbounded, not infinite.

Physicists and astronomers have not come to a definite conclusion on whether or not the universe is infinite or finite; I doubt that you have the necessary informatuin to do so.

quote:Originally posted by ate:

Well, the first one means that the universe has the potential to become infinite through an expansion within time, yet it can collapse if it doesn't gain enough momentum and ultimately become finite.

Incorrect. The universe is either finite or infinite. There is no such thing as a finite universe that becomes infinite over a period of time.

quote:Originally posted by Mister-Sawed-Off:

If the universe is infinite, then that means the supernatural exists, because infinity doesnt exist according to athiest.

No. You're a dumbass.

quote:Originally posted by ate:

You have a fever?

Type now, it will add inspiration. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Feel better.

Thanks, but it just makes me irrational, not inspired. Going to the doctors today.

Anyways:

You seem to be calling god all of reality. Is this correct?

Also for experiences, I've had several of the same experiences.

Dreams - I remember them every night and occasionally control them.

lucidity - I have lucid dreams, does this count?

awakening - I'm going to assume you mean a spiritual awakening

meditations - I meditate

visions - Yes I've had these. Actually in my fevered state. I don't consider it divine, I just think I'm sick/slightly going insane. Sometimes it's interesting, sometimes it's irrational and I take more Advil. I've had both kinds in the last 3 or 4 days. At least what I consider visions.

I have not read your suggested reading list, but I will look into it. All in all I still don't believe in god. I see no evidence for god, simple as that. Now maybe you consider god something else that I might think is real, but if it is superstitious or super natural I doubt it. My world view goes along with science for the most part, and spirituality (what I consider spirituality) through nature, and occasionally meditation. It's nothing I'd consider religious in any traditional sense though.

[This message has been edited by Aft3r ImaGe (edited 11-15-2006).]

And if you travel to the "edge" of the universe, and yet it still continues, perhaps a logical deduction would be that the universe is partly stemming from you, as an individual?

Which in some ways...makes you God, even if the "traditional" God doesn't exist within the universe.

I guess I feel there is a higher purpose to my life at this moment in time, but not a precise "God tells me what to think" kind of thing, it's very confusing and unclear, and in no way do these "answers" just come to you, it's a slow progress into accepting something which seems...kind inevitable?

The role of some kind of "higher" being in the universe...is that really such a strange concept?

Now the Judeo-Christian fellah on the other hand...

I just don't know http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif)

Also, I do think if the universe is infinite there is the prescence of a higher being on some level...it is infinity after all, this isn't just human time and space we're talking about.

quote:Originally posted by xray:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by NeoIceshroom:

[b]Physicists and astronomers have not come to a definite conclusion on whether or not the universe is infinite or finite; I doubt that you have the necessary information to do so.



I never said I did, what's the matter with you.

quote:

Incorrect. The universe is either finite or infinite. There is no such thing as a finite universe that becomes infinite over a period of time.



Lol, yes I'm aware, something like a circle can't "grow to infinity".

Yet, I'm speaking in the sense that it would "last forever", instead of eventually "shutting down and collapsing".

What I'm saying is this:

You have a universe.

It's not infinite.

It will blow up and begin, and then expand, and then it will crunch back down if it expands with an imbalanced path, and eventually loses momentum.

You have another universe, it is not infinite, it expands, and then expands, and then continues and the reaction happens so perfectly balanced, that in the end it only comes to a singularity of immense proportions, wholly expanding, while wholly filling itself with energy and thus exploding once again and creating yet another universe which will either expand to the next singularity, becoming one substance once again, or expanding, becoming voided and cool and then collapsing again.

What measures infinity is whether this unvierse expands "forever" to the point of creating yet another universe, or whether it fails and comes back in on itself.

Not in size, so much as it is time.

Because size wise...well...I don't know about that, I'm pretty sure it's already beyond the scope of physical measurement, but measurement throughout energy displacement, is what this would gauge, how "Full" it is, or how "voided" and cool it is.

quote:Originally posted by Aft3r ImaGe:



Anyways:

You seem to be calling god all of reality. Is this correct?



No, "God" is all that is, (reality) and all that isn't, (non-reality).

Make sense of that how you will, but know that even what is in existence, all of existence, is not "all that can exist".

And that is the infinite unknown.

quote:

Dreams - I remember them every night and occasionally control them.



Depends on what kinds, they don't all fall into the category I am speaking of, if you would.

quote:lucidity - I have lucid dreams, does this count?



Sure, but it depends on "what kind". Everything, dreams, memories, whatever, they all have messages. There is a specific message here about this type of "experience" that is what I am talking about.

This experience is present in all of life, as it creates it and is the very substance of it, yet it's "aligned" to make something happen, to cause an "awakening", to be that special moment where you spiritual eyes "open", and that's the situation I am speaking of.

Because it can happen anywhere, waking sleeping, on drugs, off drugs, on a roller coaster, camping in the wilderness, online, doesn't matter.

But rather "normal" and mundane experiences can happen in these situations and places as well. There's a variable that decides what happens, and I don't know what to call that, eastern texts shed a little light on it, but for the most part we do not consciously become aware of it, until we become aware of "all of it".

Meaning we won't know when or where this experience will happen, until it is actually happening, and once something like this happens, you simply awaken.

quote:

awakening - I'm going to assume you mean a spiritual awakening



I don't like the label, I sometimes feel that it was more of a physical awakening, like I just woke up out of bed, and this is the truth that awaits me about the world, forgetting the dreams, and realizing my situation.

quote:

meditations - I meditate



Ok. Good luck.

quote:

visions - Yes I've had these. Actually in my fevered state. I don't consider it divine, I just think I'm sick/slightly going insane. Sometimes it's interesting, sometimes it's irrational and I take more Advil. I've had both kinds in the last 3 or 4 days. At least what I consider visions.



Exactly!

Now imagine if your vision was of the kind I am speaking of! We've all had the sickly visions, but what of the "divine"??

quote:

I have not read your suggested reading list, but I will look into it. All in all I still don't believe in god.

Me neither!



quote:

It's nothing I'd consider religious in any traditional sense though.



Science is something, religion is something, and spirituality is something.

Try to either have all of everything.

Or to have a perfect balance of two perfectly and wholly opposing things.

quote:Originally posted by ate:

I never said I did, what's the matter with you.

I wasn't talking to you. What's the matter with you?

I don't know, I read too fast!