Hi all,

As i've expressed, vacation is almost over http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

so tomorrow morning it's back to work. And the peak season for UPS is around the corner.

Since the begining of my membership on Totse, i've noticed that many of the same questions keep popping up;

often due to the continual "birth" of new members..

sometimes due to the lack of response concidered sufficient

and also sometimes due to inability of the "answerer" to communicate (me, for instance), or the "answeree" in reading the response.

whatever the reason.. it doesnt much matter. The fact that the same questions resurface is the reason for this thread.

Since my begining in Totseland, i have seldom been a thread starter... feeling it easier to do 'negetive apologetics' than 'positive' (neg. and pos. here mean, defending as opposed to leading or attacking).

I suppose it's partly that I'm not all that imaginative, and also cuz neg. apologetics requires less of the burden of proof.. can you imagine how long winded it would be if i took on more of the burden of proof?



So here is a site that addresses many of the repeated questions... even some that i've seen show up in this past week.

http ://www.apo logetics.c om/default .jsp?bodyc ontent=/ar ticles/wor ldview_apologetics/bowman-responsetoau.html (http: //www)

Hope ya'll find this helpful and enjoy any conversation resulting.

God Bless you all,

johnny

edit to try to fix the link

[This message has been edited by xtreem5150ahm (edited 11-05-2006).]

ok, how do you fix the link?... i would rather it not be tiny urled.

If I edit my post and fix the link, it sometimes starts to work. Sometimes it won't work no matter what, though... then you gotta use tinyurl.

Edit: I think your link's too long to ever work. It stretches the page a bit.

[This message has been edited by Twisted_Ferret (edited 11-05-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Twisted_Ferret:

If I edit my post and fix the link, it sometimes starts to work. Sometimes it won't work no matter what, though... then you gotta use tinyurl.

Edit: I think your link's too long to ever work. It stretches the page a bit.



OK, thanks anyway... gotta go help Step-kid put some stuff in her car, after that i'll tinyurl.

OK... here is the tiny url

http://tinyurl.com/7um6



thanks for the help T_F.

Some of those are pretty good. But I don't think #8 is a good answer.

quote:8) Why does God allow all these false religions to exist?

Because he has created us with the capacity to make choices, including bad choices.

That might explain why they exist, but it wouldn't explain why God lets them exist. If God expects people to rely on faith to reach truth, then what if you have faith in the wrong religion? What if you grew up having faith in some religion other than Christianity, and what Christianity says just seems wrong to you?

Just out of luck?

quote:Originally posted by Clarphimous:

Some of those are pretty good. But I don't think #8 is a good answer.

That might explain why they exist, but it wouldn't explain why God lets them exist. If God expects people to rely on faith to reach truth, then what if you have faith in the wrong religion? What if you grew up having faith in some religion other than Christianity, and what Christianity says just seems wrong to you?

Just out of luck?

I think the answer merely needs to be expounded upon.

God allows us to make an infinite number of choices regarding who we will pledge our spiritual allegiance to, for several reasons.

1. To fulfill scripture.

Matthew 7:13&14 - "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

2. To maintain His design.

We were created with free will. If we had no other choice aside from God, free will wouldn't exist.

3. To create the perfect environment for His creation to rely upon Him.

God didn't want robots. If He had, He would have created them. Instead, He created free will beings who can CHOOSE Him over all other things. That choice manifests itself in true love (worship, adoration, loyalty, subservience).

As for the scenario you gave, I give you this scripture:

Romans 1:20 - For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

All men. Not a single person is without excuse. For any reason.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

God allows us to make an infinite number of choices regarding who we will pledge our spiritual allegiance to, for several reasons.

1. To fulfill scripture.

I don't understand this point. Surely scripture should reflect the will of God; God doesn't have to fulfill scripture, scripture is merely fulfilled because God is the author. This a cause: scripture says this because God does it. Not an effect: God does this because scripture says to.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

I think the answer merely needs to be expounded upon.

...

As for the scenario you gave, I give you this scripture:

Romans 1:20 - For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

All men. Not a single person is without excuse. For any reason.

You are suggesting that if people just believe in an ambiguous idea of a personal creator God, that they can be "saved". That is much different from what you have said in the past. How would these people know from watching nature about Jesus Christ the Savior, who (according to many Christians) is the one and only way to Salvation?



John 14:6 (http://bible.oremus.org/?ql=29781465) -- "Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.'"

[This message has been edited by Clarphimous (edited 11-06-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Twisted_Ferret:

I don't understand this point. Surely scripture should reflect the will of God; God doesn't have to fulfill scripture, scripture is merely fulfilled because God is the author. This a cause: scripture says this because God does it. Not an effect: God does this because scripture says to.

He fulfills it for us, so we know that it's true. Since the Bible claims to be God's word, and the word is God Himself.

There are hundreds of prophecies in the Bible for a reason. When they are fulfilled, it affirms God's existence, and His ultimate omnipotence.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Savior (edited 11-06-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Clarphimous:

You are suggesting that if people just believe in an ambiguous idea of a personal creator God, that they can be "saved". That is much different from what you have said in the past. How would these people know from watching nature about Jesus Christ the Savior, who (according to many Christians) is the one and only way to Salvation?



John 14:6 (http://bible.oremus.org/?ql=29781465) -- "Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.'"

You are mixing apples and oranges here. You gave a scenario in which a person believes in something entirely different than Christianity. You asked if they would be SOL, to paraphrase.

I gave you a scripture that tells us something very important. Whether men think Christianity is stupid or not, they will be held accountable for their choices, because deep down, they all know God exists. If they choose to put their faith into anything other than Him, they will be judged accordingly.

Keep in mind that not everyone is judged the same. For instance, if a man lives in the middle of the jungle all his life and never hears about Christianity or Jesus, God will not judge him the same as He would a man who was raised in a Christian home. God is just and fair. He would not condemn a man to an eternity of Hell for not believing that which was never explained to him.

quote:deep down, they all know God exists.

That's about as stupid as me saying everyone knows deep down that there is no God. You cannot generalize like that. You don't even have proof for that, except a supposedly holy book. Oh, but I forgot, you're a spiritual person who believes The Bible is the literal word of God, so you can make bogus claims like that. http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/rolleyes.gif)

So how are you interpreting John 14:6, then?

Well, now that we have that mostly settled, I'm going to go along my original line of thought. We have our people that have grown up in the wrong religion, or honestly thought they were doing the right thing. I'll assume there is an inherent tendency to believe in God. But now they believe in the wrong idea of God. They go to hell, right?

It's too easy to believe in the wrong thing and not realize it. If God didn't allow these false religions, it would be much fairer. One could instead simply choose whether or not to follow God. There are still people who believe in the Christian God but hate him, aren't there? So it's not as if there wouldn't be a choice, free will. It just cuts the crap so you know what the real choices are.

But that's not how this world works. Your explanation takes into account those who haven't heard of Christianity, but for those who are fooled into believing the wrong thing, they are victims of the brainwashing of their false religions.

The only way I could think of the person being able to decide if Christianity was the real religion is if they had reasoned it out, instead of relying on faith. As long as they rely on faith, they'll continue to believe in what they used to.

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:

He fulfills it for us, so we know that it's true. Since the Bible claims to be God's word, and the word is God Himself.

There are hundreds of prophecies in the Bible for a reason. When they are fulfilled, it affirms God's existence, and His ultimate omnipotence.



What he meant was that the scripture was written to reflect God's plan, rather than God's plan acted out to fulfill scripture. God's plan would have been acted out whether or not the scripture was written, no?

And so if God had a different plan (such as excluding false religions), then God wouldn't have had that written down in scripture. We're asking why God chose this plan in the first place. To say that it's because he's fulfilling scripture would be circular reasoning.

I know you have a response to this, Digital_Savior. Because even I realize that there is probably some answer out there.

Are you getting tired of arguing about religion?

quote:Originally posted by Digital_Savior:



2. To maintain His design.

We were created with free will. If we had no other choice aside from God, free will wouldn't exist.



Do I lack free will because I do not have the choice of teleporting? No. Free will must exist within the context of what actually is possible in the universe. If other religions were impossible, then the lack of them isn't a lack of free will.

quote:8) Why does God allow all these false religions to exist?

Because he has created us with the capacity to make choices, including bad choices.

I'm pretty sure statements like that have started religious wars. A much better response would be:

Because God tolerates all philosophies and religions.

"False" religion? One might argue that ALL religions are false, as most fail to teach the unity of all, and in practice, ask us to hate our neighbors who are not of our sect.

Still, God is such a large target, he/she/it/them/whatever is hard to miss, regardless of the path taken.

Some paths are less arduous than others.