I for one is tired of the Bible being used in a political or intellectual discussion. Be it stem cells, gay marriage, abortion, or anything else the Republicans are pushing. This 2000 year old philosophical piece of trash has no place in intelligent argument. These people are aghast when I threaten them with god's fury because they are wearing clothes woven of two different materials, or that they don't eat soley cloven hoofed animals who chew cud. This selective reading of the Bible for political gain, and or basis of an opinion (or lack there of) absolutely infuriates me.

Agreed.

Its one of those don't put your religion in my politics sort of things.

In class the other day a girl was presenting her persuasive essay persuading us to not support euthanasia. Of course she uses the bible as a reference. I raised my hand and politely told her that you can't use the bible as a reference until anything from it can be proven true.

The expression "don't throw out the baby with the bathwater" springs to mind.

I deplore the widespread, half-assed quoting of what is LARGELY a deeply flawed and obsolete book.

On the other hand, it contains some awesome wisdom. And for better or worse, it is arguably the most influential book in the west, and a working knowledge of it--warts and all--is beneficial in many ways.

[This message has been edited by ArmsMerchant (edited 11-10-2006).]

If its a quote similar to some thing is like you would find in Poor Richards Almanach. That just makes sense and puts it in a convenient package I think its OK to quote it.

But anything that parallels to "God wants us to do this" or "Jesus told us". That has no reason to be brought up in most anything intellectual.

The simplest way to argue against those things is to find examples in the Bible that contradict what they're trying to prove it says. It's a lot easier than trying to refute the entire Bible... and you're not going to get very far with religious types if you do.

Another thing that's useful is using the historical-critical perspective on the Bible. Like with gay bashing, explain how the pagan tribes at the time had "holy" sex rituals, and that the Israelites thought that since the Pagans did it, it must be bad. So they became anti-promiscuity and anti-homosexual.

That's a crappy explanation... but the important part is to redirect their thoughts, and give an alternative possibility. Avoid mentioning the issue of inerrancy and divine inspiration of the Bible. And use in conjunction with finding contradictory passages, if possible.

[This message has been edited by Clarphimous (edited 11-08-2006).]

No, do not even validate the bible as an authoritative source by arguing OVER the bible, it is much simpler than that. Simply state that the person is making two fallacies - claim to authority and circular argument. What does it mean to say "being gay is wrong because the bible says so"? It simply asserts that the bible is the end of all ends and is the truth, yet stating that an authority "says so" is not obviously a means to an end and not an end of an argument. Maybe you could say, "It is wrong and the bible says .....and what is says is wrong because [actual argument], in which case using the bible as a source is superfluous and simply to persuade the audience through emotions. Nothing necessarily wrong with it, just a cheap route to take.

Edit: I posted something else here, but after re-reading what you said, I'm going to just delete it. I'm too tired http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/frown.gif)

[This message has been edited by Clarphimous (edited 11-09-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by Clarphimous:

The simplest way to argue against those things is to find examples in the Bible that contradict what they're trying to prove it says. It's a lot easier than trying to refute the entire Bible... and you're not going to get very far with religious types if you do.

Another thing that's useful is using the historical-critical perspective on the Bible. Like with gay bashing, explain how the pagan tribes at the time had "holy" sex rituals, and that the Israelites thought that since the Pagans did it, it must be bad. So they became anti-promiscuity and anti-homosexual.

That's a crappy explanation... but the important part is to redirect their thoughts, and give an alternative possibility. Avoid mentioning the issue of inerrancy and divine inspiration of the Bible. And use in conjunction with finding contradictory passages, if possible.



Historical critical approach ftw.

quote:Originally posted by inuteroteen:

I for one is tired of the Bible being used in a political or intellectual discussion. Be it stem cells, gay marriage, abortion, or anything else the Republicans are pushing. This 2000 year old philosophical piece of trash has no place in intelligent argument. These people are aghast when I threaten them with god's fury because they are wearing clothes woven of two different materials, or that they don't eat soley cloven hoofed animals who chew cud. This selective reading of the Bible for political gain, and or basis of an opinion (or lack there of) absolutely infuriates me.

SO\, lets abolish all the lawsin the United Kingdom. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) That is where they come from. All laws in Uk&US are based on "love thy neighbour". So, the bible has a lot to do with politics, as laws are part of politics, and laws and Christianity are very closly linked.

quote:Originally posted by owned:

SO\, lets abolish all the lawsin the United Kingdom. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) That is where they come from. All laws in Uk&US are based on "love thy neighbour". So, the bible has a lot to do with politics, as laws are part of politics, and laws and Christianity are very closly linked.

I wish Christianity was just about loving your neighbor. But it isn't. There are so many other things that get in the way... things that I wouldn't want any laws based on. Like laws against buttsex (sodomy) and gay marriage. This is the kind of stuff we get annoyed about when people bring up stuff from the Bible from.

A lot of arguements used in conjunction with the bible are common sense.

It is important to also understand that a lot of our laws today came from the bible.

quote:Originally posted by Atticus_Ellis:

A lot of arguements used in conjunction with the bible are common sense.

It is important to also understand that a lot of our laws today came from the bible.

A lot of our laws come from common sense,

and some of them are also in the bible.

quote:Originally posted by owned:

All laws in Uk&US are based on "love thy neighbour".

No they're not...

quote:Originally posted by Twisted_Ferret:

Originally posted by owned:

All laws in Uk&US are based on "love thy neighbour".

No they're not...

Aren't they.

So, if I killed you, would I be loving my neighbour?

No.

If I stole from you, would I be loving my neighbour?

No.

Also, when the modern laws were created, Britan was a christian country.

So preventing sodomy, was loving your neighbour, because you stopped them going to hell, and stopped the country being punished.

[This message has been edited by owned (edited 11-11-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by owned:

Aren't they.

So, if I killed you, would I be loving my neighbour?

No.

If I stole from you, would I be loving my neighbour?

No.

Also, when the modern laws were created, Britan was a christian country.

So preventing sodomy, was loving your neighbour, because you stopped them going to hell, and stopped the country being punished.



You must be really naive to think that's the reason those laws are in place. Come on, we're dealing with a human system here. Run by humans. Do you think they're more interested in getting revenge, or loving their neighbors?

If the laws really were based on loving your neighbor, I think you'd see more laws reinforcing positive acts (like giving to the poor) and less about punishing bad acts.

As for sodomy in the Bible, the one who decided that sexual sins like sodomy and incest were wrong in the first place is supposedly God. The same one telling us to love our neighbors. Why does it say that it's wrong? Because it's an "abomination".

No, Christianity isn't just about loving everyone. Stop being so naive.

[This message has been edited by Clarphimous (edited 11-11-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by owned:

Aren't they.

So, if I killed you, would I be loving my neighbour?

No.

If I stole from you, would I be loving my neighbour?

No.

Also, when the modern laws were created, Britan was a christian country.

So preventing sodomy, was loving your neighbour, because you stopped them going to hell, and stopped the country being punished.



What about laws against, for instance, smoking cannabis? Or all of the various tax laws etc.?

Laws are to enforce order. Most are probably intended to do "good", but that's a far cry from saying they're all based on that single principle.

quote:Originally posted by Clarphimous:

You must be really naive to think that's the reason those laws are in place. Come on, we're dealing with a human system here. Run by humans. Do you think they're more interested in getting revenge, or loving their neighbors?

If the laws really were based on loving your neighbor, I think you'd see more laws reinforcing positive acts (like giving to the poor) and less about punishing bad acts.

As for sodomy in the Bible, the one who decided that sexual sins like sodomy and incest were wrong in the first place is supposedly God. The same one telling us to love our neighbors. Why does it say that it's wrong? Because it's an "abomination".

No, Christianity isn't just about loving everyone. Stop being so naive.



Read a history book.

quote:Originally posted by owned:

Read a history book.

Read the Bible.

quote:Originally posted by Clarphimous:

Read the Bible.

I have done. My RE teacher is a law examiner, he said all laws are based on love thy neighbour

[This message has been edited by owned (edited 11-11-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by owned:

I have done. My RE teacher is a law examiner, he said all laws are based on love thy neighbour



RE? Real estate?

Edit: wait, don't tell me! must be religious education.

It would seem to me that your teacher is naive. And you're gullible.

You still haven't responded to my argument about the Bible. My argument is that Christianity is based on things other than just "love your neighbor." Go back and read it some more until you are capable of making a decent response.

[This message has been edited by Clarphimous (edited 11-11-2006).]

quote:Originally posted by owned:

SO\, lets abolish all the lawsin the United Kingdom. http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif (http://www.totse.com/bbs/smile.gif) That is where they come from. All laws in Uk&US are based on "love thy neighbour". So, the bible has a lot to do with politics, as laws are part of politics, and laws and Christianity are very closly linked.

Actually, scots law is based almost entirely on roman law, a legal system which pre-dates Christianity and doesn't take Jewish influence, and is the legal system currently used in Scotland, and thus your claim is bullshit.

quote:Originally posted by owned:

I have done. My RE teacher is a law examiner, he said all laws are based on love thy neighbour



i sure hope this quote is sarcastic...

quote:Originally posted by Anarky:

i sure hope this quote is sarcastic...

Going by reading other posts by owned, I'm going with 'no'.

Leave it to fucking owned to take a good old fashioned bible bashing and turn it into post after post trying to explain to him that his logic is flawed and convoluted.

The Bible has a lot of CRAP from society of the times in it, but amonst that, imense knowledge and wisdom shines through, some of which is still applicable today.

Not to mention, it IS a historical source, whether you accept that or not.

And I agree, it's fucking annoying to keep using the same old crappy selective passages in ethical arguments and the like...surely the Bible is more "read inbetween the lines" than that? Actually no, it's not to hardcore christians, which is the bloody problem!

As Bill Hicks said: "I appreciate your quaint traditions and superstitions. I on the other hand am an evolved being!"

quote:"The Bible has a lot of CRAP from society of the times in it, but amonst that, imense knowledge and wisdom shines through, some of which is still applicable today."

Common sense, like "don't kill people" was around before the Bible and Christianity, not to mention the fact that alot more fiction written before and after that preticular collection of fairy tales gets the point about not being a murderous prick across alot better. Ontop of that, there is alot of contradictory bullshit in the Bible, wherein God acts like a murderous prick with a hardon for genocide and other utter douchebaggery. Frankly, the "love thy neighbour" parts don't amount to a whole lot when the God of the story basically ignores his own rules, and sets about wiping out the species because he didn't like it.

quote:"Not to mention, it IS a historical source, whether you accept that or not."

Not a very accurate one. Just because real places and people were mentioned in the Bible doesn't automatically lend credability to the rest of the book. This is something alot of people forget.

quote:"And I agree, it's fucking annoying to keep using the same old crappy selective passages in ethical arguments and the like...surely the Bible is more "read inbetween the lines" than that? Actually no, it's not to hardcore christians, which is the bloody problem!"

Word, man.

quote:Originally posted by inuteroteen:

I for one is tired of the Bible being used in a political or intellectual discussion. Be it stem cells, gay marriage, abortion, or anything else the Republicans are pushing. This 2000 year old philosophical piece of trash has no place in intelligent argument. These people are aghast when I threaten them with god's fury because they are wearing clothes woven of two different materials, or that they don't eat soley cloven hoofed animals who chew cud. This selective reading of the Bible for political gain, and or basis of an opinion (or lack there of) absolutely infuriates me.



I understand you are saying that the "selective reading of the bible for political gain" infuriates you. I agree however, what humanistic principles govern the wisdom in destroying unborn babies, tolerating the mockery of family and marriage, purposfully impregnating human eggs to destroy them for scientific research, allowing non-citizens of the nation to enter at will and live off the fat of the land, not having a common language by law, imposing unfair, racist hiring practices based on quotas and "equal opportunity", etc. etc. etc. etc.?????

What wisdom governs those things when they are counter to survival of future generations of this nation?

Think about it for a long time!! Preserve what we have or lose it - it's that simple. If you don't want it God's way then ok. If you want to trumpet man as man's god then fine! I hope you are prepared for what that will bring. With man there is death and with God there is life - choose life instead of the spirit that leads people to the opposite with lies and deception.

--Flame away!!

quote:Originally posted by Interest:



--Flame away!!

I can't. you have left me speechless

Yes, I do love it when christians try to prove there in the right with god by using the bible, forgetting I don't believe in god and sure as hell don't believe he ever wrote a book. Its this kind of ignorance that will accelerate america right back into the dark ages after generetion after generation keep expecting god to save us and we are soundly stomped by every country on earth, including mexico and cuba.

And to Interest, your first paragraph shows you know nothing about amreicas history. The civil war was not fought for humanitarian reasons. it was fought, like damn near everything else in this country, over money. the south was becoming to powerful and to snotty, the northerners blamed this on slaves, and decided to take them away. Now how does this relate to stem cell research and abortion? Essencially, unborn children are like slaves, with no rights at all, and sence the money is in exploiting this resourse to find new cures, or to keep a new generation of welfare addicts from showing up, it is here to stay. The only thing standing in its way are the thoroughly unamerican bible thumping fanatics, Who know they are in the right because te bible says so, and know for a fact that this is a christian nation despite the first amendment and despite the fact that the founding fathers spit in the british kings eye and fought and died for a country with a weak government that would not be dominated by corrupt officials claiming any kind of authority. This is not a christian nation, it is a greedy corprate nation centered around profit rather than morals, and if your god exists then I challenge him to change that.

Anyhow, the topic poster pretty well covered my opinion of the bible, I was going to skip this but I felt like being mean to bible thumper. I apologise in advance if this thread takes a turn for the worst, but he started it.

First off the stem cell debate is completely not associated with it. Anyone who is opposed to it obviosly doesn't know one iota of information on stem cells. It is this fucking assumed christian morals that pisses me off. Embryos that are experimented with are left over from fertility treatments and would of been destroyed anyways. Like a poster said above me, it is religion mixed with politics that will send us into a dark age. Religion is the most vile, racist, sexist, homophobic, and discriminating idea ever. It is parading around in a cloak of righteousnous.

quote:Originally posted by Mellow_Fellow:

Not to mention, it IS a historical source, whether you accept that or not.

We've gone over this before and so far, no one has been able to show any reliable evidence that there is any historical relevance to anything written in the bible.

If you've got some for us, please share.

quote:Originally posted by Duck:

Yes, I do love it when christians try to prove there in the right with god by using the bible, forgetting I don't believe in god and sure as hell don't believe he ever wrote a book. Its this kind of ignorance that will accelerate america right back into the dark ages after generetion after generation keep expecting god to save us and we are soundly stomped by every country on earth, including mexico and cuba.

And to Interest, your first paragraph shows you know nothing about amreicas history. The civil war was not fought for humanitarian reasons. it was fought, like damn near everything else in this country, over money. the south was becoming to powerful and to snotty, the northerners blamed this on slaves, and decided to take them away. Now how does this relate to stem cell research and abortion? Essencially, unborn children are like slaves, with no rights at all, and sence the money is in exploiting this resourse to find new cures, or to keep a new generation of welfare addicts from showing up, it is here to stay. The only thing standing in its way are the thoroughly unamerican bible thumping fanatics, Who know they are in the right because te bible says so, and know for a fact that this is a christian nation despite the first amendment and despite the fact that the founding fathers spit in the british kings eye and fought and died for a country with a weak government that would not be dominated by corrupt officials claiming any kind of authority. This is not a christian nation, it is a greedy corprate nation centered around profit rather than morals, and if your god exists then I challenge him to change that.



God will and not by flaming arrows, earthquakes or lightening bolts like most will need to see in order to change their ways. God doesn't work that way. He lets us make choices on our own and tells us with His words what is the right and wrong choices as well as the outcome.

The laws he wrote have consequence assigned to them. The judgments of God are those consequences and it is very simple. The outcome of making many bad choices only leads to a bad outcome.

That is the point I'm making. Connect the dots and follow where they lead. Look at the big picture and imagine the outcome of destroying babies, turning against moral character, tearing down the institutions of committed marriage relationships and the values that glue family together. Do those things on a nationwide scale and remove any hint of upstanding moral teachings.

Imagine the outcome.

The depravation found in the news today is only the beggining of what God's judgments will be for a people who have turned against His ways.

If you have read the bible then you have heard the warnings. What else can be said to you?

He puts a gun to your head and says do as I say or I'll shoot you, but it's not my fault if you die because you had the freewill to do as I say or not.

*remembers the flood where all of those "sinful" babies died a horrible, horrible death*

Christianity always has been used for political purposes it was alot worse when there were dictators because they could always that it was God destiny.

Recently we were reading this pamphlet for school that said this guy thought that it was Gods duty to take over the Philipines, the Senates were convinced. so I agree, religion shouldn't get involved in Political affairs.

quote:Originally posted by Interest:

The depravation found in the news today is only the beggining of what God's judgments will be for a people who have turned against His ways.

If you have read the bible then you have heard the warnings. What else can be said to you?

I know what you mean. There are things like rape, torture, genocide and religious persecution all over the world. But how is any of it new? And where does the bible say these are bad things?